Episode 43: Javanese Mermaid Queen
/Down the cliffs overlooking the Southern Sea of Java, plunging into the depths of the rough ocean, you’ll find the kingdom of Kanjeng Ratu Kidul. Mortal princess turned mermaid queen, we take away lessons of mindfulness, the duality of life, and the fact that you definitely can’t smoke gillyweed from Harry Potter. Also featuring a lot of Moana references, Magic Girl transformations, and the goddess equivalent of Venmo.
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 43: Javanese Mermaid Queen.
JS: I just – the title says it all really. All of our titles always say at all though. That's not saying much.
AM: I mean this one's just amazing. You see it. You go, “Javanese Mermaid Queen?”
JS: Hell yeah.
AM: Exactly. Exactly. We aim to deliver, and this episode is gonna do that.
JS: Definitely. Okay. Amanda, but, first, I think we have a sponsor for this episode.
AM: Yeah. It's VideoBlocks, where you can get studio-quality stock audio, video, and motion graphics images too for a fraction of the cost of the – getting those professional things on your own. You can check out all they have to offer and sign up for a free seven-day trial at videoblocks.com/spirits. It's good stuff, y’all.
JS: Yeah. And we're going to talk a little bit more about it later, right?
AM: We super are. Also, in terms of money and cool things, people are getting their merch.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yay.
JS: It's so cute to see all of your photos of all your cool shirts and your pin sets and --
AM: Oh, my gosh.
JS: -- stickers going on. Your swag.
AM: So good.
JS: I love it.
AM: Yeah. Surprise, we sent some stickers. We're very excited about it. They're now for sale as is all of our merch. We're able to keep the t-shirt, pins, and, now, Spirits Podcast logo vinyl stickers, y'all, at spiritspodcast.com/merch.
JS: So, if you haven't ordered them, if you missed the pre-order for whatever reason, you can still get them.
AM: You can.
JS: It's really cool. You can still rock that kind of creepy, kind of cool shirt, and the pin set, and, now, cool ass stickers.
AM: And the more folks order our t-shirts, the higher the demand, the sooner we'll be able to put out more. So, we're gonna get a logo t-shirt. Don't worry. We have lots of other ideas. We'd love to do a tote bag. So, if it's something that you guys show us that you want, we'll be able to get it to you quicker
AM: And we do want to get you some cool new designs.
AM: We super do.
JS: Also, speaking of your generous purchase and wise --
AM: Oh, my gosh.
JS: -- use of money, we hit our Patreon goal.
AM: We sure as shit did, Julia. We are gonna go weekly, people.
JS: Starting --
AM: In October.
JS: -- in October.
AM: Oh, my gosh. It's gonna be kindatober – kindatober. I think it's a good hashtag.
JS: Creepytober.
AM: Creepytober. Kindatober.
JS: Spiritstober.
AM: Kindacreepy, kindatober.
JS: We're gonna figure something out.
AM: We’ll let you know.
JS: It's gonna be a cool hashtag.
AM: If you have an idea, let us know. But we, we’re so excited. We're so excited to go weekly. And, next episode, we're gonna let you know a little more specifically what that's gonna look like. And we're gonna have some kind of recurring segments that we’ll bring instead of just the, you know, more like drawn-out schedule we've had. We'll have some changes to our Patreon, which we’ll also announce. But we are so stoked. And we are so grateful. And I can't think of a better birthday present to you, Julia --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- whose birthday isn’t really October, than to make our baby go weekly.
JS: Yes, I am so excited to bring more myths to all, y'all.
AM: Oh, my gosh. And we have to thank, first and foremost, our supporting producer-level patrons: LeeAnn, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Sara, Katie, Debra, Julie, Dylan, Philip, Cammie, and Chandra. Welcome.
JS: Oh, you guys are the magic girl-transforming goddesses of our souls.
AM: And thank you so much to the very many people who started pledging to our Patreon or who upgraded their pledge. There are a lot of your names. I'm just going to do it quickly. Ready, Jules?
JS: I believe in you.
AM: Thank you to Amanda, Rachel, Gooduck, Bridge, Kathy, 11toMidnights, SpookySandra, NeonGreen Tiger, TiredHorse, Jessica ,Tiff, Rayna, John, Abby, Hillary, Rita, Ceswack, Sam, Katherine, Kate, Sam, again, Charles, Meg, GuyBrush, Ray, and Yana. Whoo.
JS: Woohoo.
AM: We love you. Thank you.
JS: You're all amazing.
AM: We’re so happy to have you with us.
JS: You're just all the coolest. You're all creepy and cool. And we love it so much.
AM: The creepiest and coolest. I think that's it for now, Jules.
JS: I actually had one more thing.
AM: Oh, my gosh.
JS: We got a very nice email about Android users and the like.
AM: Oh, android users.
JS: And how they can help, you know, spread the word about the show besides rating and reviewing on Apple Podcasts.
AM: You can still do that from iTunes on your desktop, which is very helpful.
JS: Yes.
AM: But we love you also. And we still want you to help us. The single best thing you can do is to recommend us to a friend like in the flesh or over text. In The Flesh, great BBC TV show. Shout out. But, anyway, social media is, is awesome, and we appreciate it. But, if you just like sit down your creepy, coolest friend and you're like, “Listen, this is how you do a podcast. This is what a podcast is. You're gonna like it. I promise,” that really is, is the most lasting and helpful thing you can do for us.
JS: Our favorite thing in the world is to see people recommending us to other people on Twitter. It is my favorite thing. I like and hold them all dear to my heart.
AM: It's amazing.
JS: Yes, that’s right.
AM: It's amazing. And we really, really thank you. But, in the meantime, we hope that you enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 43: Javanese Mermaid Queen.
Intro Music
JS: Amanda, if you ever happen to be in Java, especially on the second day of Ruwah, which is May in the Gregorian Western calendar, you might have the opportunity to witness a celebration. It is to commemorate the ascension of the current Susuhunan or Prince of the Royal Palace of Surakarta. If you're lucky, you'll have the opportunity to see a dance known as the Bedhaya Ketawang, a sacred dance performed by nine women who are unmarried relatives of the current Prince. This, Amanda, it would be a great honor because it's usually only performed for a private audience. As you watch the women perform and if you look carefully, if the wind is blowing off the sea in the right direction and if you let yourself fall into a semi-trance, you might see a tenth dancer who's joined the dance. And that dancer, Amanda, is known as Kanjeng Ratu Kidul, also known as the Mermaid Queen.
AM: Oh, my gosh, I wanna know everything more.
JS: All right. Good. Because this episode was actually suggested by a listener, Elise, who wanted to hear some stories from her home of Java in Indonesia.
AM: Amazing.
JS: And, after reading the summary she sent, which was amazing by the way, I super want to dive into the story, which is a pun because she's known as the Queen of the Southern Sea.
AM: I love it. I love it so much.
JS: That's good pun.
AM: I wanna know everything.
JS: Okay. So, you're probably wondering why someone known as the Mermaid Queen would come to perform once a year for a king.
AM: Yeah.
JS: The Bedhaya Ketawang is supposed to reenact the story of an affair between Panembahan Senopati, which is the king of Java. He was a historical King from the 16th Century. And Kanjeng Ratu Kidul, Mermaid Queen.
AM: Yes.
JS: Should I just use Mermaid Queen from now on or --
AM: I think so. You did a great job pronouncing stuff.
JS: Thank you.
AM: But my brain just goes, “Huh?”
JS: Yeah. Okay. So, mermaid queen from now on. Now, at the start of the story, the Mermaid Queen was only a Princess, but she would eventually become this Mermaid Goddess.
AM: A human princess.
JS: Yes. She was a human princess.
AM: Amazing.
JS: So, she has human origins. The story that she is associated with is linked to a historical figures.
AM: Awesome.
JS: And it's really cool and really interesting. So, the story begins with a beautiful princess, who suffered from leprosy by a curse that was placed on her by her jealous stepmother.
AM: Okay.
JS: Which is – it's kind of amazing that the evil stepmother is a thing in almost every culture.
AM: I was just going to say there are so many analogs that you can draw already to stories that we grew up hearing.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I, I love that, you know, A, there is – there are like multiple kind of historical roots here, where like the king was a real person. Leprosy is a real thing.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But also already the strain of the mystical, right, which is that like the disease was placed on her by, you know, an evil stepmother and, eventually, obviously, she grows to be some mythical figure herself.
JS: Yeah, it's very Snow White. It's very Cinderella, which I, I dig because it's a non-Western story. So, all of a sudden, we have – even early on in the story, we have sort of a connection to it that we, as Westerners, can make.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But I – again, it's that aspect of everything in the world and all human stories are human stories.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's easy to find the common roots.
AM: Absolutely. And like butterfly lovers that we talked about several episodes ago was a story that was both familiar but also surprising. So, I'm really curious to see how the story like conforms to but also differs from – but also differs from my ideas of, you know, what, what love stories or tragic downfalls look like.
JS: Yes. I – god, I love that. I love – I love all the connections. The world is so cool. It's a complex place.
AM: So, wait. What happens? How does she become a Mermaid Queen?
JS: Yes. Okay. She was said to bring shame on her kingdom because of her disfigured state, which is like a little gross, but we'll move on. And, so, ashamed, she went to Java’s Southern coast to meditate, because that’s what you do.
AM: Okay. Nice.
JS: The southern coast is well known. It's very rough. And it's got raging oceans. And the waves would crash very violently against the cliffs.
AM: Man, just to point out, this is already more interesting than Iron Fist.
JS: Okay. Great. Because I started watching Iron Fist, and we were just talking about this earlier.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, she meditates along the coast until she starts hearing a divine voice that calls to her.
AM: Oh.
JS: It entices her to enter the violent waves --
AM: Wow.
JS: -- which normally – normally, in the story that we're telling, that's not a good idea.
AM: No, but I'm assuming that she comes out on top. Also, getting strong Moana vibes, which I really dig.
JS: Yes, I do feel the strong Moana now that you pointed it out. Now, from all our favorite drowning stories, you would think that's not a good idea. But, when she enters the ocean, the waves swallow her, and she emerges again reborn as a beautiful water goddess.
AM: Whoa.
JS: So, healed from her leprosy. No longer disfigured. Just a beautiful goddess, enchanting seaness. That didn't work.
AM: That is amazing and leads me to wonder what could have actually happened that leads to, you know, the like mythologizing of this moment.
JS: Yeah. I don’t – I'm not actually entirely sure. It's very interesting.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because I, I like the idea, and I like the premise of someone ordinary finding a higher calling and becoming something that's more than human.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it – and having this connection to humans, which we'll kind of discuss as we dig into the story.
AM: Let's hear it.
JS: Okay. So, as the princess is busy going through a magic girl transformation in the ocean like a boss, there is a Javanese leader known as Senopati. He too was kind of struggling and having a crisis of faith. So, he too went to the south to pray and contemplate the future of his ruling.
AM: Nice.
JS: As he's sitting on the southern cliffs overlooking the Southern Sea, he's lured into the ocean by the princess, who had the cool magical transformation, our Mermaid Queen. She brings him down to her submerged palace, which again remains one of my favorite tropes in all of mythology.
AM: God, I love it.
JS: I love a good submerged palace. They're always fascinating.
AM: I think I was forced to watch so many SpongeBob SquarePants --
JS: Oh, no.
AM: -- when babysitting my baby siblings,. That I am just really into the idea of like a dome at the bottom of the sea that you live in.
JS: Yes, me too.
AM: I love it.
JS: So, she brings him down to this palace. And they spend three days celebrating a honeymoon, where she taught him both the secrets of love and how to lead and govern successfully.
AM: Oh, my god. This is my favorite Manic Pixie Dream mermaid trope that I could possibly ask for.
JS: I know. It's pretty damn great if you ask me.
AM: Wait. Did she – did she like having him under her spell? Is that why they got married? Or, did he like – she likes to drag him in. And, when he was there, he's like, “This is great.” And then they, you know, found love.
JS: I, I think it was a mutual thing. I don't think she put any sort of magic on him. And she also didn’t --
AM: I mean I would also be impressed .
JS: She also didn't force him to come down to the ocean. She invited him basically.
AM: Lured him.
JS: Yes.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Lured, lured is a good word I guess.
AM: I, I love how the agency for morally dubious decisions is taken away from men and placed on women with the trope of the little like feminine wiles or the like seductress.
JS: Yes.
AM: When, in fact, like, if you make an invitation, the person accepts it. It's the person who accepted it that is at fault if that thing --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- was like, you know betraying their spouse or something.
JS: Right. And it's also not a situation where she is putting pressure on him --
AM: Right.
JS: -- or forcing him to do anything.
AM: Just like the sea calls me, and no one knows how far it goes. Like come on.
JS: Thank you for that. I feel like this dude's also not married.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, he's not really having any sort of, you know, affair or anything like that in order to get with our Mermaid Queen.
AM: One of the less problematic human demigod relationships we've seen.
JS: Right. And also I think, in – at this point in history, the royal families could have multiple wives --
AM: And dope..
JS: -- and who are celebrating polygamy. So --
AM: You do you.
JS: -- not a huge deal either way. Because of the union between the Mermaid Queen and Senopati, all of Senopati's descendants that came after him would have a spiritual connection with her. And she acted as a divine guide in times of need.
AM: So, they had kids together or it was just like a, a influence on the family and the lineage?
JS: I don't think they had kids together. I'm not entirely sure. But, regardless, anyone that shares his blood would have the --
AM: Sure.
JS: -- divine connection with them.
AM: Cool.
JS: So, this relationship with the goddess goes back – goes back from the 16th Century and is still celebrated today.
AM: Wow.
JS: So, even – for example, in the 1980s, one of the members of the royal family who had played a diplomatic role in the Japanese occupation of Java during World War II and had led the fight basically for the independence of Java against the Dutch, spent every June 21st going to the Southern Coast of Java, leaving a full set of women's clothing and his hair and nail clippings as a sign of his respect for the goddess.
AM: I mean that's a pretty good offering.
JS: It's pretty solid.
AM: Also, at the summer solstice, like that's a pretty significant day.
JS: Yeah. And it's around that time where it's the celebration for the divine influence and the relationship between the royalty and the goddess is celebrated. So, I, I super like that. It's really interesting. So, what do we know about the Mermaid Goddess outside of the story? We know that she is like the ocean. She is both fearsome like a stormy sea, but also benevolent and calm. Because, you know, the ocean gives trade and gives livelihood and all that sort of thing.
AM: Same.
JS: Same. She is said to change forms between an old hag and a beautiful maiden, depending on the moon cycle --
AM: Same.
JS: -- connecting the fact that the ocean is influenced by the cycles of the moon, which is really cool.
AM: I love that.
JS: I – man, it always – I love when it's sort of a – we understand as humans even when we don't have scientific explanations for it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because human beings are like, “Oh, when the moon is like this, the ocean is like this.” And, so, they must be connected somehow.
AM: Absolutely. And it feels so right --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- because there is actually a link between those things. And I know we discussed, in our werewolf episode, kind of the, the interesting link between, you know, the lunar cycle and things that are coded as feminine.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, specifically, the menstrual cycle or kind of other ways that like just rhythms of the Earth match up to rhythms of the moon. And this is a dope example of the same thing.
JS: And we also see a lot of moon goddesses --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- are, in fact, goddesses and not gods.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because we tend to – especially in the western concepts, we tend to associate femininity with the moon just as a spirit and as a celestial deity.
AM: Yeah, and fertility and all that good stuff.
JS: So, she's also seen to be the protector of navigators and sailors and favors those who were green, especially if they're traveling over her domain in the Southern Ocean.
AM: So, sort of the opposite of a siren then. Like keeping folks to their path instead of luring them off of it.
JS: Yes, very much so. And there's – if I remember correctly, there is a specific Greek god, who – his whole thing was he used to be a sailor. He ate some sort of magic herb like Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and then became a sea god. And his specific domain was over protecting sailors and fishermen.
AM: Whoa.
JS: Yeah. I can't remember his name right now. But --
AM: Don't you love though how gillyweed was like totally marijuana? J.K. Rowling was just --
JS: What?
AM: Oh, yeah. Maybe it's just in fanfic. But like smoking dried gillyweed – I'm pretty sure this is all on fanfic.
JS: That is 100 percent a fan fic thing.
AM: Okay.
JS: I’m just looking at you like, “That is not canon.”
AM: In any case, gillyweed is totally the part of the Harry Potter universe.
JS: Yes. Okay, if you say so.
AM: Just --
JS: I feel like it would be --
AM: I have no direct experience. I'm just saying.
JS: -- like Mandrake leaves or something like that.
AM: Right. Right. The screaming babies.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I mean parents are gonna need it.
JS: Because gillyweed has an association with water that, unless you're like ripping a bong that hard, I can imagine that gillyweed and regular weed would be associated together.
AM: Maybe it is just the word weed. Fellow Phantom aficionados, please correct me on this one.
JS: And, Amanda, that's all well and good, but I think first I'm gonna need a refill.
AM: Oh, my gosh. Let's do it.
Midroll Music
AM: So, this week Julia spirits is brought to us by VideoBlocks. VideoBlocks is a stock footage, stock video, stock image, stock motion graphic website, where, instead of paying all the time out of pocket for all the different professional quality like images, audio, sound effects, whatever you might need, you just pay one thing $149 a year. That is like the cost of three or four really good stock images.
JS: That is true.
AM: And you've access to their library for the whole year.
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AM: Yeah. It's, it's hard when you're producing a documentary or, or something where people are just talking about the past. And you're like, “You can't just have a camera on a person's face for 12 minutes talking about like John Adams.”
JS: No, it does not work.
AM: Right. So, you need some stock footage of like horses, and houses, and signing things.
JS: [Inaudible 18:08] the Revolutionary War.
AM: And tea and beer, and all those and more can be found at Videoblocks. And they're actually offering, for listeners of Spirits, free seven-day trial. So, if you go to Videoblocks.com/Spirits. That's V - I - D - E - O - B - L - O - C - K - S.com/spirits. You can save on millions and millions of studio quality clips from Videoblocks.
JS: Yeah, and we know so many people who are creating amazing audio dramas.
AM: Yes.
JS: Or, something that needs, you know, high quality sounds that you can't normally get. You either have to make yourself or pay a ton for.
AM: Like per thing.
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AM: You can get varieties. You can get airlock noises. You can get door slamming noises. Can you tell we’ve been listening to Wolf359 over and over again? Yes, you can.
JS: So ,I would recommend you check out Videoblocks. You do that seven-day free trial. It is amazing. And the quality of their stuff is non-believable.
AM: Absolutely. So, again, that's videoblocks.com/spirits. Link is also gonna be in the description, but thank you so much to Videoblocks for sponsoring Spirits. We super appreciate it. We use your service. And we love it so much. So, thank you. Now, let's go back to the show.
JS: When she is not pleased with the status quo, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis can all be attributed to her malcontent. Want to win her favor a bit more? Besides the green fabrics and the nail and hair clippings like we discussed before, she loves body lotion, perfume, and incense.
AM: Nice.
JS: Like, like any – kind of reminds me of Mami Wata a bit. The nice stuff.
AM: Yeah. And the – and our – some of our Erzulies as well with the spices and colors.
JS: Yeah. In order to get these offerings to her, they're usually attached to bamboo rafts, which are then released onto the stormy ocean waters so that she can receive them.
AM: Hmmm.
JS: Which is adorable. I like that so much.
AM: I love that. Like we won’t make you come to shore. We'll send them off to you.
JS: Yeah. No. Be polite. Venmo that shit. It's ancient Venmo. It's the Amazon Prime of the Javanese culture.
AM: Yeah. And, if it's stormy – if that ocean is churning, you get that one day shipping. All right, this a – this simile has reached its natural conclusion.
JS: Okay. We’re good. At the same time, often a similar offering will be given at the volcanic peak of Mount Merapi, which is associated with the goddess as well.
AM: Nice.
JS: Because volcanic eruptions and stuff like that. And it's interesting because – we'll talk about this a little bit later. But there's a distinct celestial symmetry when it comes to locations that are associated with her on the island.
AM: Celestial symmetry was my old rock band in high school.
JS: Yeah, I know it was. I came to your, your rehearsals.
AM: Guys, I couldn't be farther from high school band players.
JS: Oh, god, it was so --
AM: No.
JS: It’s the furthest thing.
AM: Nope. Nope. Nope.
JS: Amanda sent me a photo of her like six-year-old softball pic today. And it was the funniest thing I've ever seen.
AM: I look like I'm saying to the photographer, “Why am I holding this bat when I could be holding a book?”
JS: Get me out of here.
AM: It's amazing.
JS: Okay. So, what's important to understand about modern interpretations of the Mermaid Goddess is that she was most likely inspired by Hindu and Buddhist Tantric traditions. But Java now is a – has a majority Muslim population.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But, because of her association with the royal family, her story, her worship, and the – and just the way that the traditions are integrated with the culture, it still remains prominent today.
AM: Nice.
JS: Which I think is really cool.
AM: Well, it’s not Pagan. It’s fine.
JS: I mean, yeah, basically. So, we can argue that she, as a story, has survived for a long time. We're dating back to the 16th Century, and she's still maintained this very key part in the culture.
AM: Good 500 years. Yeah,
JS: Yeah. So, she likely started as an indigenous story, then was adapted by Hindu and Buddhist traditions, and then survives despite the country following Islamic practices --
AM: That was awesome.
JS: -- which is hardcore if you ask me. There's not a lot of traditions that really last as long as that.
AM: Yeah. And we see this over and over, where a really like elemental, you know, belief or figure god or goddess, you know, is adopted by a conquering culture.
JS: Right.
AM: Because something like fertility, love, you know, nature, sun, you know, all of these kinds of really basic forces that shape everyday life, like those are the first things that are going to get represented by, you know, stories and lore.
JS: Yeah. And I agree with that. And it's really interesting too, because, normally, when we look at that sort of thing in the lens of Christianity or really any Abrahamic religion, those specific areas of life tend to be kind of usurped and taken over by the larger deity.
AM: Sure.
JS: Or, in a lot of cases, like specifically with Catholicism, it's – specific things are given to the saints, which don't reach the level of, you know, deified. But they still kind of cover their bases, and it allows for more specific worship
AM: Gives you a sanctioned way to perform, you know, the worship toward the forces that people are already doing.
JS: Yeah, exactly. But, in this circumstance, she's still a goddess and she's still worshipped regardless of what predominant religion is being practiced in the country, which I really like.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's really interesting.
AM: So, how is she presented under Islamic influence? How is that like shaped her practice?
JS: Well, so, it's actually really interesting that you bring that up, because she is not shown in a lot of art, which --
AM: Well, sure.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Per kind of Islamic guidelines.
JS: Right. I was gonna say that. However, as we started seeing the story with the episode – the way that the episode showed off with the dance --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- she's highly represented in the performing arts --
AM: Nice.
JS: -- in rituals and, specifically, in architecture, which is really, really interesting. So, not physically represented in architecture, but her presence is made in architecture. I'll explain later. I have a whole paragraph on architecture. And I'm really excited to talk about it.
AM: So, am I. I’m like sitting up really straight because I love architecture.
JS: Okay. So, architecture is really interesting and, obviously, something we don't talk about a lot in mythology
AM: No.
JS: But, in this instance, the royal residences in Java are specifically positioned at the center of the axis connecting the two places that are associated with the Mermaid Goddess. So, the shores of the South Sea and that volcano that I spoke about earlier.
AM: Whoa.
JS: So, at these royal residences, which are known as Kratons, they are decorated with black sand from the beaches of the Southern Sea.
AM: Whoa.
JS: And they line the courtyards.
AM: I love that so much.
JS: So, it’s almost like it reminds me of salt lines protecting the area and having the divine influence of the goddess there. At the palace, there is a large octagonal tower known as the Songgobuwono, which means the support of the universe. Each year on the anniversary of his coronation, the prince will retire to the highest floor of the tower, where he is said to meet with the Mermaid Queen and renew his divine powers by mating with her.
AM: That is incredible.
JS: I really like that a lot.
AM: I also love the idea that a royal family is not just like imbued with divine endorsement and forever and ever, but you have to like go and re-up that stuff.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You have to go and reconnect, which is a cool kind of callback to the origin of this myth around the, the – I think it was the king or the prince like going to really seek guidance and to seek like understanding and calmness and insight within himself.
JS: Right. And then gaining that insight and the ability to rule from the goddess herself.
AM: Right.
JS: Which is really – it's, it's – I just – I love this relationship between the divine and the royalty in the situation. It's really kind of very beautiful.
AM: Also, real quick, that tower reminds me of my favorite game, Monument Valley, which is a beautiful game for iOS, where you play a princess who is in a like mystical kind of like optical illusion piece of architecture floating in the middle of space. And you like turn the structure with your fingers on your phone. And it's like, you know, staircases. Like the staircases that meet, you know, on all four corners. Like illusions that shouldn't exist.
JS: Oh, the MC Escher.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like they actually do exist in the game. And, so, you have to just like rotate the structure until staircases meet up like Hogwarts style.
JS: Interesting.
AM: And it is really gorgeous and calming. It takes like an hour to play through all the way. And it is a game that I recommend to people who don't like games.
JS: That sounds like a very you/very zen game.
AM: Yes.
JS: And I like that. That sounds cool.
AM: I dig it.
JS: There's also the Taman Sari, which means fragrant garden, which is made up of an artificial lake, some bathing pools, a meditation grotto, and, most importantly, a system of underground tunnels.
AM: Whoa. For what?
JS: One of the tunnels in particular is said to connect the Taman Sari in the palace with the goddesses palace underneath the sea. So, basically, it's, if the royalty needed to go visit the goddess for whatever reason, they had a underground tower that led straight to her place.
AM: That is so beautiful and practical
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like a physical commitment to this story, which just like kind of overwhelms me.
JS: Yeah. So, that is the story that is the Mermaid Goddess. And I think the lens that I want to look at today is the concept of tangible legacy.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because there's a great quote that I read about it. That – one of the articles that I was using to do research, they interviewed the Java people. And one of the people said, "You do not see her, Yet, she permeates everything. She is present in the most important moments of the life of Javanese people.”
AM: Wow.
JS: It's, it's beautiful, honestly. So, I really love this concept, because, you know me, I love history. And I love the idea of traditions that last a very long time and maintain the tradition. Like a lot of stuff that we talked about – for example, when we talked about Jack O' Lanterns, it started as one thing. We still do it today, but it's kind of lost the meaning.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Like we can look back in history and understand, “This is why we started doing it. We still do it right now even though it has lost the meaning that we're looking at.” But, when it comes to the Mermaid Goddess, she is – she's there. She's permanent. She is there and is – still has influence regardless of all the time that's passed.
AM: Wow.
JS: And I think that the – just the way that her legacy is still tangible, it still exists and is felt by the people is extremely important. And the way that – just the idea that they do this dance every year and people still know that she is there. They still feel her presence. That's what stands out to me a lot about this myth. And that's what I think makes it different from a lot of the myths that we've talked about in the past.
AM: And there also seems to be a really equalizing myth, where it's not just a source of legitimacy for the ruling family but also something that empowers everyday people.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, often, you see a disconnect there, where there's a mythology, a mythos, a practice around a royal or ruling class, dynasty, family, whatever, and then kind of like peasant traditions or populist, you know, mythos are kind of different or separate things. And, so, for this to be something that is like built into the, you know, everyday traditions of normal Javanese people, but also like a physical, embodied, and, you know, ritualized part of, of wool of the highest class in the land, that's something pretty special.
JS: Yeah. And I feel as though, the fact that she is so highly associated with the royal family, but the people of Java still feel her presence in everyday things and especially during, during the celebrations, it feels very diplomatic to me or democratic I guess.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because it's not just the kings and the princes that have to humble themselves to this goddess. Anyone could go to those shores and meditate on how they can be a better husband, how they could be a better parent, how they could be, you know, more, more of a representative, more of a governing force in their own lives.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I like that idea that anyone can have that experience that this king had on the coast that one day. Like nothing is stopping them. They have that relationship still. And they get to renew it, but it's not stopping anyone else from making these sacrifices, making these pledges to the goddess.
AM: Yeah. And like maybe going to the south shore of a country is the, you know, peak of going there to reconnect, but it sounds like you can sit by any body of water, you know, and kind of think about, meditate on, kind of call for guidance.
JS: Yeah. You can go to the south. You could wear your green. And you can think about what you can do for the goddess and what the goddess can do for you.
AM: Thanks, JFK.
JS: Thanks, JFK.
AM: But that – actually, speaking of our Catholic precedent, the only – that's another thing that really interests me about this myth. It’s that idea of meditation and, and where you draw the line between looking inside yourself for answers and appealing to an outside force or deity. So, when I was little and I would lose things like a bracelet or the TV remote, my dad would always say, “Well, look for it really hard. And, if you look for it, and you can't find it, and you're really at your wits end, pray to St. Anthony. You can't pray to St. Anthony if you haven't looked for it. Like you can't just be like the – the, like, easy pass to, to finding your thing. But, if you do and you're – you know, and you're really there, he can help you. And lots of times, I do remember, you know, feeling hopeless, praying to St. Anthony. And then soon afterward, I would find the object. And those shades of folks who do pray to saints in everyday situations, but I realized at a certain point, like, “Oh, the act of like finishing my frantic search, and kneeling down for a moment, and collecting my breath, and saying a prayer, and clearing my head, probably helps me to actually find those objects. And you can call it to my influence. You can call it, you know, calming down enough to get my wits about me and do it. But that is always such a fine line between, you know, are the answers in you all along, are they whispered to you by a force, is the act of prayer – you know, there is a calming, meditative, you know, blood pressure lowering, mind opening effect to calming the hell down to stating your intentions and to saying like, “Listen, I need help.” And I think it's just like a really beautiful thing that humans have done for a long, long time. It’s to, you know, kneel down, humble yourself, and, and ask.
JS: Yeah. I like that idea that, that sort of prayer and meditation are, in the same sense, a practice in mindfulness.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because I agree with you completely. Humbling yourself, either to yourself if you are not a spiritual person or to something higher than you if you are a spiritual person --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- is a really empowering thing. And that's what I really like about this goddess, because she starts out this story as someone who needs to kind of think about her place in the world. And she goes down to the southern shore to pray and to kind of meditate on her situation. And, in doing so, in having this mindful moment, she is physically transformed. And I think that, in a lot of sense, when we take the time to be mindful and take the time to sort of think about our own situations and our own roles in the world, we can transform ourselves maybe not physically into Mermaid Goddesses.
AM: Sure.
JS: But --
AM: We can try.
JS: I mean we can try, but into just better people. You know what I mean?
AM: I do. And this is reminding me too – not to get too serious here – but of my own experience seeking help for mental illness.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And just that act of saying, “I can't do this on my own, I need some help here,” is, is such an empowering transformative step. And there is something really, really powerful about, you know, stripping away your distractions and kind of reckoning with a thing inside yourself that is causing you distress or confusion whether that is, again, illness or just uncertainty or, you know, desperation, like, like the Mermaid Queen did of just saying like, “Listen, you know, I need some guidance here.” It's, it is humbling on the one hand, but also like almost one of the most empowering things you can do on the other.
JS: Yeah. And it's really interesting that you bring that up because that's the whole reason that Prince goes to the south shore in the first place. It’s because he's having his own crisis of faith. He doesn't know if he can rule. He doesn't know how to – you know, how to deal with the inner turmoil inside of him. And he is lucky enough to have that guidance from the Mermaid Queen when he goes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I think that whether the Mermaid Queen is inside you or the Mermaid Queen is a therapist or someone who can lead you to a better conclusion or just to a better state of mindfulness is – it's up to you. It's, it's an individual experience. But I really enjoy the idea that we all have our own experience. And we all go through times of trouble. And, if it's something that can help you, finding help is one way of doing it. Practicing mindfulness is another way of doing it. At the end of the day, it's all about finding that peace and finding that connection to the world and to you if that makes sense.
AM: And leaving your everyday life can be really helpful in that regard.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, there's a reason that pilgrimages are a thing. Not just to go to the sacred site, but also, you know, get out of your everyday context and to really be alone with yourself and your thoughts. I've done a lot of solo traveling. And that has always been my experience It’s getting outside my daily life. I feel like I have the like most pure distillation of like myself and my experience and thinking about what I wanna do in the future. I love reading when I'm traveling, because it's just like such a pure connection I have with the book that I'm reading. And I have such strong associations of like reading ton of French murder mysteries in a cafe in Cusco, Peru. But --
JS: Damn. That's a good memory.
AM: It is really good. Shout out, Catherine Addington, we, we sat in the highest Irish pub in the world, which is in Cusco, and read for like four hours as some English soccer rose watched the game. It is beautiful.
JS: That's the most You moment I've ever heard of in my entire life.
AM: Yep. Yep. It's pretty good. But the point is that, that whatever the thing is that you're struggling with or if you just want to kind of have a like centering again, you know, bringing back to yourself and your, I don't know, your core values, getting outside of your daily circumstance can really help. Maybe it's, you know, going to a museum for the day and losing yourself in that world if you can't, you know, uproot your life and go travel for two months, which I would love to do.
JS: Yes, Wouldn't we all?
AM: I know, I know. But, again, if it's your therapist's office, if it's going on a walk, if it's, you know, going to a different country with a backpack and a candle, it can be really, really empowering. And I don't know. It can teach you a lot just to be alone with yourself and your thoughts to be outside of the, the everyday circumstances you've become used to.
JS: Yeah. I think that's absolutely true. And I really like that this story has led to that conclusion. Just to be more within yourself and find the knowledge both from the world and within yourself.
AM: Also, like I want subterranean tunnels leading to the ocean.
JS: I was gonna say, “Can we talk about how there's Irish pubs everywhere?” It’s just all over the world.
AM: Yes. And, again, friend of the show, Catherine Addington, our former guests from Our Lady of Guadalupe has a unified theory of Irish pubs.
JS: The Cracker Barrel.
AM: What's that?
JS: The Cracker Barrel theory.
AM: The Cracker Barrel theory, right, which is that every Cracker Barrel is actually the same place. And you just like stepped through the door, and it's like a time warp portal to the same Cracker Barrel.
JS: I, I completely subscribe to that theory.
AM: I know. I feel the same way about Irish pubs, which is that, you know, no matter where you go, you'll have a manufactured mahogany panels. There's some kind of steak, you know, pie on the menu. And, and it's just – it's home.
JS: Do you know how many Irish pubs there are in Rome? A lot.
AM: I believe you.
JS: Just a lot of Irish pubs, and I drank at, at least, three of them when I was there for three days.
AM: I went to a bunch in, in Amsterdam as well. There are some excellent normal pubs.
JS: Amsterdam at least is a little closer.
AM: I know there’s lots of them in Cusco, Peru.
JS: You know what I mean? I mean yeah.
AM: There’s at least two.
JS: There you go.
AM: Only one of them has the highest altitude though.
JS: Well, that one is special.
AM: I will – I will find a picture for our Patreon show notes of the highest Irish pub in the world signed.
JS: Solid. So, everyone, I think that's it for today and stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil