Episode 42: Werewolves
/We’re not just talking werewolves of London! We’ve got cannibals, whole cities of wolf-people, and some big ol’ cat folks as well. This week we cover werewolves as you know them, and werewolf & werewolf-adjacent stories from around the world.
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 42: Werewolves.
JS: Yes. I've asked for it, and here it is. Some good, good werewolf round up.
AM: Julia and I, in like middle and high school, would trade like fanfiction and sketches in between classes to like keep ourselves busy during class periods. And I wrote so much Remus Lupin fanfiction, and I'm --
JS: I'm glad.
AM: -- so happy we're getting to talk about werewolves.
JS: I actually am in the process of moving, Amanda, and I found a book that I wrote as a child.
AM: Yes.
JS: And it was called The Nice Werewolf.
AM: Awww. That's your aesthetic, Julia.
JS: It was really, really cute. It's about a werewolf who's trying to make himself less intimidating. So, he got his fangs removed. And he clipped his nails. And he tried to shave his head.
AM: Awww.
JS: But, you know, his friends accepted him as a werewolf anyway.
AM: Do you know who else accept us as we are, Julia?
JS: Our patrons?
AM: Yes, indeed. And we would love to thank the newest members of our patron pack: Cathleen, Cammie, TiredHorse, Gwyn, KC, Hannah, Chelsea, Seddie, Joseph, David, Chandra, and Merrilee.
JS: You guys rock. You are the full-moon bathing werewolves of our hearts.
AM: Oh, I love that this episode's coming out right after the solar eclipse too.
JS: Oh, dude, I don't even think about that.
AM: We didn't even put that together, man.
JS: Our bad.
AM: You know, sometimes, you just are kind of lazy and don't think about scheduling, and then things work out.
JS: Also, sometimes, the planets, and moons, and celestial bodies just align.
AM: Sometimes --
JS: Get it? Eclipse joke. Eclipse joke.
AM: Indeed. Well done. Well done. And, also, speaking of the, the – hmmm. Let's try to make this happen. Alignment, axis, the, the patrons that keep our world on – spinning correctly --
JS: That was good.
AM: -- our supporting producer-level patrons: LeeAnn, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Sara, Katie, Debra, and Julie.
JS: And now Chandra.
AM: And now Chandra. Thanks so much, Chandra. What are we drinking, Julia, during this episode?
JS: God, it's such a bad pun. I've been spending way too much time listening and talking to our friend, Mike Schubes --
AM: Yup.
JS: -- at the – at Potterless Podcast.
AM: It catches.
JS: So, it's moonshine.
AM: Of course, it's moonshine.
JS: Of course, it is.
AM: It's actually an apple flavored moonshine that I got, and it doesn't suck.
JS: No.
AM: It's a clear liqueur that I don't hate.
JS: Yeah. And we made a nice summery kind of sangria cocktail. And, if you are one of our patrons, you will find out about that --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- and how to make it.
AM: $5 level patrons will get recipe cards. And they are awesome.
JS: Yes. Amanda, recommendation corner.
AM: So, I feel like I've spent the last 14 years of my life catching up on the Name of the Wind and the Wise Man's Fear, The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. I am a fantasy fan and, somehow, had never read Name of the Wind. And they are – good lord, they are long. It's literally like 2,000 pages between the two books. And it was so much and pretty good. I'm not sure – I'm not sure what I think about it quite yet.
JS: Isn't this the series that Lin-Manuel Miranda is producing or something like that?
AM: Yeah, I think he's involved in the adaptation, which is coming --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- I think a limited series --
JS: Cool.
AM: -- TV soon. So, I figured I wanted to read it before the series came out. It's also what got me finally to read Game of Thrones. I wanted to read it before the series came out. The world building is intense. It's a cool like narrative structure, where you're in the present day and someone is recounting the story. And then most of the story is told in retrospect. And, so, there are comments like I didn't know how fateful this will end up being. And it's not too much. Like it just lends a kind of cool amount of tension to the story. So, I'd love to hear from listeners if you have enjoyed that series. And, if you did, what other books like it you really enjoy. I'm kind of on a fantasy binge.
JS: Same. I always love a good fantasy book. So, we will always take some listener recommendations on that.
AM:And what is your recommendation this week?
JS: I have been at home a lot recently, because I'm moving. And, dear god, I have watched so much Top Chef.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So much Top Chef.
AM: We've gone through like five seasons of Top Chef.
JS: Oh, my god.
AM: I know. And I'm working from home this month. So, I just have it on in the background. And, good lord, I thought I was a Chopped devotee. I thought that was the peak of television cooking shows.
JS: No, it's Top Chef. Top Chef is the peak.
AM: It kind of is Top Chef, y'all. Like I, I was in the dark for so long. And now I've been brought to light with Padma and. head judge, Tom Colicchio, and, and our sons Richard and Hugh. And, oh, my god, it's so good. I love [Inaudible 4:09]
JS: And then Emeril shows up every once in a while like a cool uncle.
AM: I know. All the cool uncles come back sometimes. Oh, god, I love Grayson.
JS: And Gail, our wine aunt.
AM: Gail, our wine aunt, whose makeup is always flawless.
JS: Always good.
AM: God, Top Chef is really good, people.
JS: I read her, her memoir about how she kind of got into the food world.
AM: Padma?
JS: No, Gail.
AM: Oh, cool.
JS: And it was excellent. I don't remember the name of it. You can probably google it, but it is excellent.
AM: Yeah. Padma has a book out as well about sort of like her experience with food. And it's a memoir about her life. I have not read it, but I was at book Expo America the year that it came out.
JS: Oh, dang.
AM: So, I remember her talk about it. And I was just like, "Dang, this woman is like beautiful and super smart and has lots of good things to say." Top Chef, y'all.
JS: Top Chef.
AM: Check it out.
JS: We – do you wanna tell everyone what your favorite season is?
AM: I think it's probably season 13.
JS: Season 10 for me.
AM: Season 10 for you?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Well, I'm working my way backwards. I just finished season nine.
JS: Nice.
AM: So, we, we will let you know as time goes on.
JS: Yes, we will.
AM: So, it is August, a, a very quiet time of the year. Lots of folks on vacation, but other podcasters are also on vacation. And you know what that means, Julia?
JS: It means we can steal the spotlight.
AM: We could totally steal the spotlight and rocket up those iTunes charts if y'all help us out by subscribing to our show in iTunes, in Apple podcasts from your iOS device or from any desktop computer of any maker model with iTunes installed.
JS: You can also rate and review us on iTunes. I think, right now, we're at 220 ratings, which is excellent.
AM: Yes.
JS: Thank you so much for everyone who has rated us so far and for giving us those five stars. The more, the merrier. The more you review and rate us on iTunes, the more people find the show.
AM: Absolutely. And, between subscribing and reviewing us, it will help us leap up those society and culture charts. I think we peaked at what? Like 154 on iTunes charts overall?
JS: On the overall. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And I would love --
JS: Actually, it might be higher 147 or something like that.
AM: Something like that. But I would love to get higher. And, right now, everyone else is on a beach. And Julia and I are sweating in our respective apartments working and packing.
JS: Yes.
AM: I would really love to take that spotlight. So, we very much appreciate those who have done it so. far. But please help us out. Open your iPhone. Open your computer. Install iTunes and subscribe to Spirits.
JS: Yes, please. We appreciate it, and we love you very, very much.
AM: We love you like werewolves love the moon or hate the moon, depending. You'll see. Anyway, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 42: Werewolves.
Intro Music:
JS: So, Amanda, I've always been a werewolf girl over a vampire girl. I don't know about you.
AM: I totally agree. Animalistic.
JS: Okay.
AM: Lovely. In touch with their emotions and wild side.
JS: I'm just also creeped out by the vampire-like aesthetic of, "Oh, I'm way older than you, but we're gonna have a romance anyway."
AM: Julia, it's like Kirk and Spock.
JS: Okay.
AM: The Werewolf is all pathos.
JS: Yes.
AM: The vampire is all the mind. I can't remember what the actual word would be. I think there's that one.
JS: I don't remember either way.
AM: Anyway, in a world where --
JS: Logos. Logos. Logos.
AM: Logos.
JS: Logos
AM: Yes.
JS: Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So, Amanda --
AM: No. No, I'm not done.
JS: Okay. Sorry.
AM: And vampires are all logos, because the thing is I identify as a vampire. I identify as a Spock. I identify as a Logos. So, it's nice and important to me to be able to have a werewolf in my life.
JS: Okay. I identify as the pathos, or ethos, or whatever one we just said it was.
AM: Pathos [Inaudible 7:44].
JS: Probably pathos.
AM: It was like a minute and a half ago, but that feels so long.
JS: Just, just a little while ago.
AM: No, it was like 20 seconds ago. Keep going.
JS: Okay. Anyway. So, we're going to talk about werewolves today.
AM: Hey.
JS: I want to chat about some werewolf legends from around the world, because, let me tell you, there is a lot of them. And there are definitely some good ones.
AM: Wow.
JS: So, it is, Amanda, a werewolf roundup time.
AM: Werewolf roundup.
JS: Werewolf roundup. Pa, pa, paw.
AM: Awoooo.
JS: That was a good comeback. I liked that quite a lot. Okay. So, first thing's first, let's cover the basic for werewolves. You know, you sat up straight in your chair. I really appreciate that.
AM: I did. Moon. Biting,
JS: Yeah. So --
AM: Scratching.
JS: -- just in case any of our listeners aren't familiar with them, I just wanna do a quick roundup. And then we'll get to the different myths and legends of different areas. So, basically, a werewolf is a human that can transform into a wolf sometimes permanently, sometimes temporarily. In modern stories, we tend to associate the werewolf with transformation during the full moon, but that isn't necessarily the case with all stories.
AM: Really?
JS: Yeah. So, if in human form a werewolf was cut, fur would be seen around the wound --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which is creepy as hell. So, like say you cut your finger with a kitchen knife.
AM: Oops, I’m a werewolf.
JS: All the sudden – all of a sudden, wolf form.
AM: Wow. That surprises me too, because the wolf form is probably, presumably bigger than the human form.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or, if not, then at least like differently shaped. And, so, the idea that it's like literally like stuck beneath your skin is like creepy, but also sort of huh.
JS: So, interestingly, when they were in wolf form, sometimes, they were indistinguishable from just an ordinary wolf except that they had no tail.
AM: Whoa.
JS: So, they were sometimes shown as being larger than regular wolves or would retain human eyes and a human voice.
AM: Wow.
JS: And, after transformation, their human form would become weak, even debilitated, and would be prone to undergo painful nervous depression, which like same.
AM: Hey, that's, that's why Remus Lupin knows the benefits of chocolate.
JS: That is true.
AM: That is that poor, poor 13-year-old boy had to undergo his transformations in the shrieking shock, all alone, until his BFF and totally not his boyfriend, Sirius Black, convinced Remus and Peter --
JS: James.
AM: -- to become animagi. What's his name? What did you say?
JS: James. You said Remus and Peter.
AM: How he convinced other Remus --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- and Wormtail to, to – yeah. Man, I wish – I wish James Potter were called Other Remus. That kid needs to be taken down a notch. Everyone's like, you know --
JS: He really could.
AM: -- the cool, smart, kind Remus, and that other guy. Like that would have changed the --
JS: The other Remus.
AM: That would have changed the, the fate of all of the books so quickly.
JS: Damn, that would have been really interesting.
AM: Like, at, at worst, Harry Potter would have been treated a lot better, because he would be less of a like, you know, scorned child of like the popular kid that nerds hated.
JS: That is true.
AM: And you know what they say? That nerds will become your bosses one day. So, be nice to them.
JS: That is super true.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Every 80s movie told us that. Amanda, how does one become a werewolf?
AM: Well, Jules, you get bit by one.
JS: That's actually not necessarily true.
AM: Please enlighten me.
JS: So, again, it's gonna depend on where you are and what story is being told. But the simplest and probably least painful version is that one can transform simply by removing your clothes and putting on a belt that's made out of wolf skin.
AM: Ah, that sounds a lot more fun.
JS: Yes. Also, one could drink rainwater out of the footprint of an animal as a way of transforming into a wolf.
AM: Not into that animal?
JS: Well, it would be --
AM: Or, any.
JS: -- it would necessarily be a wolf.
AM: A were --
JS: A werewolf paw. It would be a wolf paw. In France and in Germany, it was believed that if you were – on a certain Wednesday or Friday, if you slept outside on a summer night with the full moon shining directly on your face, you'll become a werewolf.
AM: What are the implications here? It's – were people idiots and, so, that's why this happened? Did they want to do it? Were they doing a kind of like weird little adventurous tourism?
JS: Well, there would be an thing about black magic and deals with Satan later on --
AM: Oh.
JS: -- in a werewolf mythology, but we will get there. I promise. I promise.
AM: I want to go there now.
JS: I know, but just like 30 more seconds. We got these. These are all fairly innocent, but there were some death – less chill ways of becoming a werewolf.
AM: Does one of them involve being raped by a werewolf?
JS: No.
AM: Good.
JS: No rape.
AM: Nice.
JS: No rape. What? Well, actually, a little bit of rape later on the story. I'm so sorry. Okay. So, we'll talk about that later, but there was the belief that the transformation came through a satanic deal and would lead to a hankering for human flesh.
AM: Dope.
JS: You know, the usual.
AM: Same.
JS: In some stories, it was actually a curse from god or the gods. In some stories, in Catholicism, people who were excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church became werewolves.
AM: That is pretty amazing. I love it a lot.
JS: I know it's kind great --
AM: Same. Same.
JS: -- as Roman Catholics, you know, totally.
AM: Yeah. As, as like – as like a tiny queer kid growing up in the Roman Catholic Church, being like, "Oh, no, what the hell?" I would much rather become a werewolf than just like straight up go to hell.
JS: I mean that's fair.
AM: Become a werewolf on your way down to hell, that's so much more rad.
JS: And a queer werewolf, no less.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's pretty damn awesome.
AM: I know. We don't need the male werewolves.
JS: I mean, apparently, not.
AM: I'm about to have another a --.
JS: Awewe,awowo. That one.
AM: Yes.
JS: Okay. So, there's actually a really interesting example in Roman Catholicism, because St. Patrick was said to have transformed the Welsh king named Vereticus into a wolf.
AM: Whoa.
JS: Vereticus? Probably one of those things.
AM: No one knows how to pronounce Welsh things.
JS: That's okay. The Welsh people do. I don't.
AM: There are like 35 people that speak Welsh fluently.
JS: Okay.
AM: Sorry, guys. Let us know why we fucked up. Not ifs but why.
JS: Meanwhile, there was a story of a man named Thiess, who claimed that he and other werewolves were the hounds of god.
AM: Whoa.
JS: And that they were warriors who went down to hell to fight witches and demons.
AM: I'm picturing --
JS: How cool is that?
AM: I'm picturing the greasers from Grease with a bunch of pitchforks. And that's beautiful, only they're wolves.
JS: I like that. It’s just like [Inaudible 13:52].
AM: And then they just like have like a single very greased quaff and like a leather jacket and, and high-waisted jeans.
JS: That reminds me of the original Teen Wolf movie, and I'm all about it. In later stories, that would become more violent. The transformation would become more violent. So – and this, this is where we finally get the bite or the scratch from the wolf or another werewolf would turn the recipient into a werewolf as well assuming that they survived the attack.
AM: And what was the reason for that becoming part of the deal? Like the – like blood of Catholicism?
JS: Oh, no. You would assume actually that we're finally starting to understand rabies as a disease.
AM: Whoa.
JS: So, the idea that getting bitten or scratched by a wolf could, you know, turn a person rabid. And that would, you know --
AM: Interesting.
JS: -- mess with their mind, become more angry. And the symptoms would kind of associate later on with werewolf, lycanthropy.
AM: Whoa. I love that.
JS: That's cool, right?
AM: Yeah. Bring me back to my Victorian, you know, mad scientists. So, we're just like – my, my parents are rich. I don't need a job. Therefore, I'm gonna just like poor chemicals together until I die of poisoning.
JS: That sounds like Frankenstein. Sounds like a thing.
AM: Yeah. He was amazing. If I could – if I could like go back in time, I would absolutely cross dress and just visit the like Royal Society in London and be like, "Y'all don't even know about like heliotropes and shit.” Like just – I just – just like be in that room where there was no qualifications. People just did shit. It was amazing. I – and like, like people dedicated their whole lives to the idea of like advancing knowledge and one very particular subject with no accreditation, no publication, like no glory necessarily. It was amazing.
JS: I mean that's how we got the theory of evolution.
AM: Yes.
JS: Darwin wasn't really anyone. He was a lord, who was gonna be a priest. And then he was like, "I'm gonna go look at birds."
AM: And there were so many other things that someone like him could have done. Like one of my favorite poets is called Gerard Manley Hopkins. And he was like a fairly rich dude --
JS: It's a great little name.
AM: No, it is. He was like a fairly rich dude, who ended up becoming a member of the clergy. And he just like wrote poems quietly and kept them in his attic. Emily Dickinson style.
JS: Cool.
AM: Although, she did try to get published and like was trying to like be a person, but like misogyny and [Inaudible16:05].
JS: She was a woman.
AM: And probably bisexual and kind of depressed. But, but Hopkins like was one of the most beautiful poets that I've ever read. And he was just like rich and idle. And that's what he did with this time. And, instead, he could have been like figuring out arsenic and, and weird shit.
JS: That's cool as hell. I'm into it.
AM: Anyway, werewolves.
JS: So, let's get into some more specific stories about werewolves.
AM: Let's do it.
JS: Hey, you know, Amanda, who would have guessed that the Greeks have some werewolf myths?
AM: I sure bet they do.
JS: Yes, they do. And they were called the Neuri.
AM: Bloody, kind of violent, kind of incesty I bet.
JS: Well --
AM: Sounds like the Greeks.
JS: So, our boy, Herodotus, you know.
AM: Oh, yes.
JS: Historical Herodotus.
AM: Our fave "historian."
JS: Quote and quote.
AM: Who, who is just kind of like the only one we have and, therefore, the best one. But he's just like I – oh, god, I wish I could get that guy drunk one day and just be like, "So, what actually? Like what actually did you see? And what was just like some guy told me in a bar once. Oh, it's the history of blank."
JS: Yeah, I like it. I'm into it. I wanna get Herodotus drunk. Yeah.
AM: Like thank you for your service to humanity, but also you were just making shit up.
JS: Okay. So, Herodotus, wrote about the Neuri, which was a tribe that were based on his stories that was located somewhere in the modern day Northern Ukraine. So, they were driven from their land, apparently, around 550 BC by an invasion of serpents. You know, the typical thing.
AM: Okay. Okay. Okay.
JS: And then we're integrated into Scythian custom. Scythians were a northern kind of part of Greek history.
AM: Okay. So, exiles get reintegrated. They're now in Greek society.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Snakes were after them. Now, they're not.
JS: Yes. But the problem was the Scythians saw them as like magic, or magicians, or what have you. And that's because the Neuri were said to change into wolves once a year.
AM: What?
JS: So, the transformation would last several days. And then the folks would just turn back to their normal human selves after that.
AM: How did the myth get started?
JS: I, I honestly do not know.
AM: Wow.
JS: A quick side note, I wonder if this is – you know, does, does the whole society turn into wolves at the same time? Or, is it like people who just happen to turn into wolves depending on the individuals? I – it reminds me of, as a child, I straight up thought that everyone – every woman or every person who has a period got their periods at the same time.
AM: Yeah. I thought you could like feel them – feel them happening like when you have to pee. And, and you just like – like, "Okay. Well, like it's, it was building. And, now – and, now, like it's got to happen.”
JS: See? I just assumed, you know, because people will use dumb euphemism when we were a kid.
AM: Yeah. Right.
JS: It's like, "Oh, it's your time of the month." I'm like, "Is it everyone's time of the month at the same time?
AM: Is it – is it – is it the 17th of this month?
JS: Yeah. It's like, "Well, what, what exactly time is it? Because I need to know. I should prep and like buy tampons and stuff.”
AM: It'd be very convenient. Like is it 4:00 PM on Friday? I gotta know.
JS: So, so, my question is were these people turning into werewolves all at the same time or is it like periods where they just have them, you know, at different points in their monthly cycle?
AM: Man, I think it's really interesting – the, the parallels there. Like there's, obviously, pack mentality. And there is, you know – you know, a cycle with the moon, which is a traditionally feminine, you know, celestial body. There is being possessed by a force that doesn't feel like you. And I think, you know, lots of us who menstruate have been in the position where, if you have particularly bad PMS or PMDD, like you have this – I don't know – like occurrence that feels alien to you that comes over you --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- for a day, or two, or three.
JS: You feel different.
AM: And you feel different to yourself, but you are yourself. And, so, is that part of you? Is it not? Like do you integrate it? Do you not? Do you feel alien to it?' Like it's, it's just such - ugh. And like not to speak anything of pregnancy too, which is like another, another --
JS: Such a whole thing.
AM: -- whole arena. It's nuts. Also, why are all werewolves masculine? Like what is that deal?
JS: I don't know. That is weird.
AM: I know.
JS: So, anyway, I was just curious like, with the economy, does everyone turn to a wolf at once? Does it work out best for that?
AM: It's the – it's the monthly werewolf bank holiday, Julia. That's what they do --
JS: That's what I thought it was.
AM: That's actually why weekends were invented. They take the – they take the monthly werewolf thing.
JS: The long weekend where everyone turns into a wolf, you know, because Labor thing.
AM: You know, Labor Day, Werewolf Labour Day,
JS: Oh, man, that's funny.
AM: Lycanthrope Labour Day. Moona McMoona Sunday.
JS: Oh, my god. All right. We need to stop. Okay. So, going back to Greek myths, there's the story of Lycaon, who was transformed into a wolf, because he ritually murdered a child. Not great. He then served the human flesh to Zeus, because he wanted to know if Zeus was truly god.
AM: What?
JS: Zeus, obviously, figures out what's going on and transforms Lycaon into a wolf as punishment for the whole murder cannibalism, general doucheness towards the gods kind of thing.
AM: Okay, two questions.
JS: Go.
AM: One, why would eating child's flesh or almost eating child flesh prove that Zeus was or wasn't a god?
JS: Well, it would prove that he doesn't know what's going on and, therefore, doesn't have that divine knowledge.
AM: As in, he's not omnipotent or else he wouldn't have eaten this.
JS: Well, not even omnipotent. It's just the matter of – like a human would be at fault and that a god would not be. A god wouldn't do that action.
AM: Okay.
JS: You know what I mean?
AM: I do. And then, secondly, why is being transformed into a wolf a punishment? Wolves are pretty dope.
JS: Well, because you're not human anymore.
AM: I suppose.
JS: Yeah. And that's just – you know, it’s the epitome for the Greeks. It’s to be human.
AM: Oh, dude, whoa. I'm getting a whole thing unlocked in my mind right now.
AM: You know how the Greeks keep transforming people into animals and it's punishment?
AM: Yes. It's almost because they elevate and deify humanity.
JS: I mean just like all of humankind really.
AM: It's almost like their gods are embodiments of, of like human characteristics and urges and downfalls.
JS: Yeah, pretty much.
AM: Oh, god.
JS: So, Amanda, there's another story by a Roman writer named Gaius Petronius Arbiter.
AM: What a name.
JS: It's quite a name.
AM: What a name. What a name. What a mighty good name.
JS: Where there is a character who sees his friend transform into a wolf, and I have to read the quote from his writing.
AM: I'm so ready.
JS: It's so ridiculous. And it might just be the translation, but it's just very bad. I see he’d stripped and piled his clothes by the roadside. He pees in a circle round his clothes. And then, just like that, he turns into a wolf --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which I just personally find the best way of transforming into a werewolf to be honest.
AM: I mean the idea – it's almost like a – like the most extreme example of a salt circle, because like --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- what is urine but salt and waste. And --
JS: I guess.
AM: -- you’d make a little fairy circle around it. I don't know.
JS: Okay.
AM: I was reading Irish Fairy tales all morning.
JS: Damn. All right.
AM: And that's where my brain is.
JS: Okay. So, speaking of Ireland, let's get to Europe a little bit more.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, in Europe, we actually didn't see werewolf stories come into play until about the 14th century.
AM: That's pretty late.
JS: Yeah, it is kind of late. But they – I'm sure there were some local myths, but it didn't really build into prominence until the 14th century. But there were a few instances of stories before that. The first use of the word werewolf which is W - E - R - W - O - L - F.
AM: Okay.
JS: Without the double E.
AM: Werwolf like merman or --
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Was in the 11th century, though there is no surviving poetry or fiction that makes a reference to it. It was just kind of in a dictionary, basically, where they talk about what a werewolf is, but --
AM: Man, it's so interesting. I love by the way, y'all if you haven't looked at like the Oxford English Dictionary, or Merriam Webster, if you – if you must. No, no, no shade. I just love the OED so much. Anyway. But they cite the earliest known usage of every word. And so just to look back at the dictionary and be like, “What is the first recorded use of the word long, right? Or, like the word house?”
JS: Sure.
AM: Or, the – you know the adjective, beautifully.
JS: I like that.
AM: You know, it's just a super lovely and like mind bending enterprise.
JS: I'm into that.
AM: Let me know what your favorite word origins are?
JS: Okay. Traditionally, there were references to wolf men in Germanic paganism, which were promptly repressed by Christianity when it spread across Europe.
AM: Lol. Don't worry, it's not taking. It's fine.
JS: Basically.
AM: #Christianity.
JS: But prior to this, some of the Wolf Man Legends grew out of the Viking Age.
AM: Whoa. Or, some Viking wolf things.
JS: So, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about the Úlfhednar, which were the wolf coated men. So, they were fighters similar to berserkers. But they dressed in wolf hides rather than bears like the berserkers did.
AM: What were those?
JS: Berserkers were basically intense fighters. You can – you know what the word berserker now means. Berserker or berserk.
AM: Right. Berserk means like to go the craziest you can.
JS: Yeah, exactly. So, they were these really intense fighters that were known throughout the Viking Age.
AM: Wow.
JS: They would – you know, they rape and pillage and all that kind of thing.
AM: Yes.
JS: But they wear bear pelts, whereas these dudes will wear wolf pelts.
AM: Was the idea to like imbue themselves with the spirit of the animal?
JS: Exactly.
AM: Nice.
JS: You got it.
AM: Nice. It turns out, over a year and a half and 42 episodes, I've learned some stuff.
JS: I'm so proud of you.
AM: Thanks.
JS: So, they were said to channel the spirits of the animals. Thank you, Amanda.
AM: Whoo.
JS: Particularly wolves because duh and in order to enhance their effectiveness in battle. So, in this instance, they were supposed to be resistant to pain and would kill their opponents viciously in battle much like wild animals. So, that's --
AM: Uh, yeah.
JS: -- they're channeling that wolf spirit by doing that.
AM: That's the idea, I guess.
JS: So, the Norse would actually often associate it with the Ulfhednar with Odin.
AM: Father god.
JS: Yes. [Inaudible 25:57]
AM: Lightning, thunder, whatever.
JS: Nope. Wrong one.
AM: No.
JS: Odin, knowledge magic. That kind of thing.
AM: Whose thunder?
JS: Thor.
AM: Damn it.
JS: So, Amanda, let's fast forward to the 16th century France, because this is where things get really intense.
AM: What kind of cheese that they have?
JS: Brie I guess.
AM: What, what was like cheese making like.
JS: Roquefort was it a thing back then.
AM: Were they sophisticated? Were they not?
JS: They would – I mean it was mostly monks just making cheese at this point and a couple of farmers.
AM: Classic. Classic. Monks just like preserving knowledge, copying manuscripts, making cheese, making beer. Excellent job, bugs.
JS: So --
AM: Chipmunks.
JS: So --
AM: I wanted monks. I want a team monks jersey, Julia. Team monks.
JS: Okay. We'll make that for you.
AM: Okay then.
JS: So, Amanda 16th century France is where it gets intense, because this is around the time where they start having the werewolf trials. So, these are trials that are similar to or associated with the witch trials that started in the 15th century, then peaked at the 17th century, and then subsided but the 18th century. So, the werewolf trials featured a couple of different accusations, usually, lycanthropy, which was literally transforming into a wolf, but also wolf-riding and wolf-charming.
AM: Okay.
JS: Which I guess are kind of weird things to accuse someone of. But, since it’s associated with the witch trials, it's not the craziest thing in the world.
AM: I mean the idea of like trying to solicit or have power over animals --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- is the thing associated with witchcraft --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- which we have seen in the trials and other places. But, in terms of like charming them, I don't know.
JS: But the reason that the werewolf trials become so prominent is because of a man named Peter Stumpp. And we're going to talk about Peter Stumpp.
AM: Oh, Peter Stumpp. Why aren't there limericks about you? He's such a limerickable name.
JS: Well, you're gonna see what he did and then you could probably write a limerick about him maybe. So, Peter Stumpp was a German farmer who, after his trial in 1589, became known as the Werewolf of Bedburg.
AM: Okay.
JS: What we know of Peter Stumpp comes from a pamphlet that was published in London in 1590, which was translated from a German print which no longer survived. Like there's no originals that survived. The pamphlet describes the life, crimes, and trial of Stumpp including statements from his neighbors and witnesses to his crimes.
AM: Wow.
JS: Apparently, the – well, let me tell you a little bit more about Peter Stumpp before we get into his actual crimes. Because, apparently, the name Stumpp might have been a pseudonym as his left hand had been cut off.
AM: Yikes.
JS: And the alleged werewolf also had its left paw – like his left front paw cut off, which is – supposedly proved his guilt.
AM: That means they’re the same.
JS: Yeah. So, through torture, which was a common practice during the werewolf-witches trials, Stumpp confessed to have been practicing black magic since he was 12 saying that the devil had given him a magic belt that allowed him to transform into a wolf.
AM: Oh, god.
JS: Obvs, they tried to find the belt, but, obviously, they didn't. Stumpp claimed that he had been a insatiable bloodsucker, his words. Eating the raw flesh of goats, lambs, sheep, and men, women, and children.
AM: Okay. In human form or in werewolf form?
JS: Little bit of both.
AM: Oh.
JS: He confessed to killing and eating 14 children, two pregnant women, including the fetuses. And one of the children he confessed to eating was his own son, whose brain he said he devoured.
AM: Wow. You don't hear about super historical serial killers a lot.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yikes.
JS: But he was – he was a big one. He was a big one. Obviously, they found him guilty. He was executed by breaking, which I super don't want to describe here but just know it's really bad and ends up with the beheading and his body being burned.
AM: That's all I need to know.
JS: So, kind of going off of this, we have to talk about revenants for a second.
AM: Okay.
JS: Because there was a belief that permeated out of parts of Europe; particularly Greece, but also Royal Germany, Poland, and North France that believed that the corpses of werewolves if not destroyed will return to – the from the dead.
AM: I mean fair enough if they're like possessed was shit.
JS: Yeah, of course. So, they would come back to life either as wolves or hyenas that would prowl battlefields drinking the blood of dying soldiers.
AM: Wolf corpses would turn to hyenas?
JS: Well, human corpses because, if you kill a werewolf, it reverts back to human form.
AM: Ooh. Oooh.
JS: So – but, if a werewolf was not beheaded and burnt – like the body was not, you know, completely cremated, they would come back as wolves or hyenas.
AM: I think it's really interesting that hyena is grouped in there because there seem to be like a more evil or, like – I don't know – base version of a, of a wolf.
JS: That's interesting. I, I wouldn't associate that.
AM: I would assume.
JS: But I guess – I guess Greece and those areas would have more of a negative connotation of the hyena than – I don't know – Africa would.
AM: That's true.
JS: So, anyway, it was believed --
AM: Also, every time I watch a horror movie and they bury a body instead of burn it, like, “What are you doing?”
JS: Just a bad choice.
AM: What are you doing?
JS: Just a bad choice.
AM: Just a horror movie logic, don't answer the phone, lower all the windows, lock all the doors, run if you can, don't, don't like have sex with your boyfriend when there's a creepy child downstairs, and, finally, no, no body burying. Burn them all.
JS: Good job.
AM: Burn them all.
JS: That was great.
AM: Burn them all.
JS: Good, good horror round up for you. Okay. So ,it was believed that if people died in mortal sin, they would come back to life as blood-drinking wolves known as revenants.
AM: Same. Cool.
JS: They would have dealt with – they were dealt with by decapitation of a spade or an exorcism by the parish priest. The head was then thrown into a stream where the weight of its sins would weight down. Nice.
AM: Love it. Love the corporeality of sin, babe.
JS: Yeah. So, this is sounding familiar. It's basically the same thing that we would do to kill a vampire more or less.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Fun fact, some Eastern European countries would link the two together. In Serbia, the word for vampire and werewolf are both vulkodlak.
AM: Wow.
JS: That's cool too.
AM: Those are two very different creatures --
JS: I guess.
AM: -- to call the same word.
JS: I mean I guess because, you know, in certain vampire lore, vampires can turn into wolves as well as bats or like that sort of thing. And the blood sucking with the werewolf kind of comes into play as well.
AM: Yeah. But then like eat flesh. But, to me, they're such – like they are Kirk and Spock. Like they're such opposites of, of similar like human impulses.
JS: Right. And I think that's a very modern interpretation --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- of both of those things if we're going back historically.,
AM: It’s just like wants to eat you.
JS: I think it becomes little bit more muddied.
AM: Yeah, for sure.
JS: So, Julia, you’re probably saying we’ve really only talked --
AM: Oh, I was like, “Are you addressing yourself?”
JS: I am addressing myself.
AM: That is a plot twist.
JS: So Julia, you're probably saying we've really only talked about Europe. Usually, in a roundup, we go all around the world. And you would be right. But the thing is wolves are very much an American-European thing.
AM: They are.
JS: But werecats, Amanda. Because werecats are apparently much more widespread because big cats are everywhere.
AM: Oh, my god. So much better. Why are werewolves a thing?
JS: So, for example, in India, there is a weretiger story about a dangerous sorcerer who transformed into a human/tiger.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: He was considered a menace to livestock. And stories would warn that he could turn into a man-eater at any moment. In China, weretigers were also supposedly victims of a hereditary curse or a vindictive ghost depending on what your story is.
AM: The human.
JS: But, yeah, tying it to bloodlines is really important --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which I really like. Other stories included that the ghosts of people who are killed by tigers would become supernatural beings known as Chang, who would devote their energy into making sure that tigers killed more humans.
AM: AKA kids don't play in the forest alone. There's fucking tigers out there.
JS: Yeah, dude.
AM: It’s the Chinese version of the kelpie.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Pretty much actually. In Thailand, they had the opposite of traditional Werewolf myths, where a tiger that eats many humans would become a weretiger. So, by eating more humans became more human-like.
AM: And was that desirable or not?
JS: No. I mean you don't want --
AM: Because [Inaudible 34:12].
JS: You don't want tigers to eat more humans too.
AM: No. For the tiger, was it like a weird experience?
JS: I don't think the tiger had any thoughts on the process. I could be wrong.
AM: I wouldn't be stuck in this flesh prison if I didn't have to be.
JS: I mean but the tiger is in a flesh prison already, man.
AM: I know. But like probably a better flesh prison.
JS: I mean I guess.
AM: We'll see.
JS: Okay. How about some werejaguars? A lot of Central Mesoamerican cultures venerated the jaguar. And the priests and shamans would follow a tradition of wearing the skins of a jaguar to become a werejaguar through ritual.
AM: Wow. I mean they're amazing. And, also, like don't you ever look in the eyes of big cats in videos and be like you're a person.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I do.
JS: I do that with dogs a lot. I look in their eyes and I go, "Oh, you have people feelings."
AM: That's why I think – I think pets are kind of weird, y'all. It's like just another creature in my house. And I --
JS: Well, that's why people refer to them as fur babies.
AM: I, I tell it was --
JS: People do that, man.
AM: I don't like that. I don't like that.
JS: All right. Well, you don't have to.
AM: Similarly, to how I grew up Catholic and I'm just like – that's like a big influence. I had no pets growing up. And, so, the idea --
JS: Well, that's because you're allergic to everything.
AM: I'm allergic to the entire world. Yes. And, so, the idea of just having like another creature in my house that is not a human that's blood related to me is just kind of like, "What?"
JS: Okay. Fair enough. Going back to the werejaguars, the Aztecs specifically had an entire class of specialized warriors that were known as jaguar warriors. There are stories from the Balams of Yucatan, which were said to guard their maze fields and animal form and would gain this ability from being clawed, scratched, or looked directly in the eye of a jaguar, which like, you know, you just said look in the eye of a jaguar --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- or a big cat. You'd be a werejaguar if you followed this mythology.
AM: I mean if I – if I would be so honored.
JS: That's true. You would be honored. That would be cool. So --
AM: I want to be a jungle cat.
JS: Yeah, I would too.
AM: I wrote a novel as a kid which was like someone whose parents were divorced or something and was like being shuttled between one parent and the other or was like being sent from Brazil to America or something. And just kind of like ran away to the Amazon and then ended up like living Tarzan style like among the apes and stuff.
JS: Nice.
AM: And like another like village urchin became her companion. Anyway. And I, I just really liked that idea. And I super would love to like live among the trees.
JS: I like it. I'm into it. So, Amanda, Africa. Fuck yeah. Africa has some amazing werelions, panthers, and leopards.
AM: Please tell me more.
JS: Wereleopards were actually supposed to be leopard god or goddesses that were masquerading as human. Though, apparently, they couldn't do the whole human thing looking right. But these gods would mate with humans and then the children that were born would sometimes grow up into shapeshifters particularly into leopard shapeshifters. Werelions were typically associated with royalty. A king or queen who, after their death, would become a werelion or a spirit that was destined to rule.
AM: Whoa.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I love that so much.
JS: Super cool, right?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Actually, a great story of that is the lions of Tsavo, which were said to be kings in lion shape who attempted to rebel against the invading Europeans by stopping their railroad by attacking humans. So, there's a --
AM: I love that.
JS: The lions of Tsavo are a real historical thing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Where they were just man-eating lions that were eating the Europeans as they tried to build a railroad through Africa. And it was fucking insane. So, the local mythology was that these were former kings --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- that were killed, and then became these lions to protect the homeland.
AM: Oh, my god, I love that. Like, A, Europeans, what you're doing is wrong. And like the – all of nature is being like fuck stop. But, also, I love the idea of giving kings and queens – like they have always had divine inspiration and divine ties, divine right to do what they're doing. And I love the idea that they are being tied to like defending with all of their might, with their bodies and blood the like present state of their kingdom.
JS: I like that a lot too. America.
AM: Let's bring it.
JS: We got some stuff there too.
AM: Let's go.
JS: For example, the Navajo believed in witches, who would werewolf clothing and transform. And they were called the Mai-cob. The Naskapis believed in the caribou afterlife, which was guarded by giant wolves that would kill careless hunters who ventured too near because the afterlife in their belief was a physical place.
AM: Whoa.
JS: There's a story of the Loup Garou, which is a cross between French werewolf myths and Native American stories about the wendigo and focus mainly --
AM: I want to know more.
JS: -- in Canada, Upstate New York, and the Upper and Lower Peninsulas of Michigan. The Cherokee had the wampus cat, which was also known as the Ewah, who is a woman who disguised herself in the skin of a cougar to spy on the men in her tribe. When she was found out, the medicine man punished her by turning her into a half woman, half cougar monster.
AM: I mean I would still hang out with her.
JS: I would, would do it anyway.
AM: Would. Would. You said it [Inaudible 39:11] so I didn't have to.
JS: I know.
AM: Would hang on anyway.
JS: It was said that the wampus cat was a spirit of death and the earth. And, when her cry was heard, it means someone was going to die and be buried in the next three days.
AM: Uh, I love it so much and reminds me of the Banshee and other --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- kind of myths around the foretelling of death.
JS: I always love a good foretelling of death.
AM: Mmm. Me too.
JS: In Haiti, there's a superstition about werewolf spirits that are known as Jé-rouge, which means red eyes.
AM: Ooh.
JS: And they would possess the bodies of unwilling victims, transforming them into cannibalistic lupine creatures, who were also known for trying to steal away children from their mothers.
AM: Any person or like sinners?
JS: Just any person, just an unwilling person.
AM: Cool, cool, cool.
JS: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Why not?
JS: Anyone's open for it.
AM: Just life. Yeah. It just happens.
JS: So, Amanda, those are our werewolf myths for the time being. Tried to hit up every area I could. But --
AM: Wow.
JS: -- how do you feel about the werewolf now? Still the werewolf fan?
AM: I feel still amazed. Still super a fan. And I also want to do vampire myth, because I have so much to discuss about how those two compare.
JS: I want to get a good guest for vampire myths.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because someone – I'm sure one of our listeners or someone we know would be a excellent vampire myth person.
AM: Because there is so much like human impulse and human urges that are all like drawn up in these werewolf myths. There is like – I don't know – like fidelity, and ruling, and passion, hunger. You know --
JS: Betrayal.
AM: -- betrayal, addiction, in some ways.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like the addiction to flesh or to blood. Appetite. Like all the things we talked about with Erzulie Dantor and kind of other, other mythological figures, Kali, that are all about appetite. And I, I love it so much.
JS: It's a good one, right? I love a good werewolf myth. I think they really speak for themselves. So, I don't think we're going to dive too deep into this one.
AM: But one thing that I really do love about a werewolf myth is that it allows you as a – as a human being, space to think about or even just to acknowledge a part of you that feels insatiable.
JS: Yeah. And I feel like a lot of time human beings don't feel – feel very distant from our natural base animalistic urges.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I feel as though the werewolf is taking that to the extreme. And it's easy to find a middle point, where it's we are very pure human beings where everything is logical, and then the werewolf where there's insane base desires. And I think, as human beings, we have to straddle that line very carefully.
AM: We do. And, and like the – the were – the existence of the werewolf myth kind of tells us like it has value and it’s worthwhile to, at least, just acknowledge this stuff. Like some part of you wants to become an animal. Some part of you wants to become a different person. Sometimes part of you wants to have no ration or logic or ruling impulse except for like desire and to be able to talk about that or, at least, talk about someone in the village who is that. I don't know. I think it has real value.
JS: That village talking shit.
AM: Man. Fucking Martha four doors down. What the fuck?
JS: She's the reason Peter Stumpp got broken.
AM: She sure is, dude.
JS: Yeah. Damn.
AM: And her kid looks a little bit like Peter, don’t he?
JS: A little bit. Yeah.
AM: Little bit.
JS: I’m gonna say that.
AM: Little bit.
JS: Peter also had like a – the whole like incest thing going on with this thing, but I kept it out of the story. But all right.
AM: True.
JS: You had to bring it up.
AM: Well, I would love to hear from listeners if you have local werewolf myths. I super duper wanna hear about them.
JS: Yeah. So, Amanda, I think this is the perfect time to remind our listeners to stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool. And don't eat human flesh unless you're a werewolf. Bite
JS: Or, or just don't eat human flesh. That would be cool I guess.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil