Episode 44: Circe (with Jess Zimmerman)
/#Creeptober is just around the corner, but we’re starting the season out right with one of our favorite creepy-cool witches: Circe. From turning men into pigs, enchanting sailors with herbs and feasts, and turning A WOMAN INTO A BUNCH OF DOGS FROM THE WAIST DOWN, Circe is the biggest badass the Odyssey has to offer. Featuring how ace/aro folks would make a killing in the love potion business, how you should never eat food given to you by a beautiful woman, the question of cannibalism in men-pigs, and an herb called HOLY MOLEY.
Follow Jess on Twitter @j_zimms and Jaya @jayasax! Catch up on her incredible monster essays for Catapult, the piece she wrote with Jaya on coauthoring a book with your friend, her coverage of the NY Times Bestseller scandal, and absolutely check out Basic Witches.
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 44: Circe with Jess Zimmerman.
JS: For once, Amanda, I'm not telling us the Greek mythology in the story
AM: Someone else told you stuff about Greece. How did it feel?
JS: It felt pretty good.
AM: It felt pretty good. We got deep in there. And you also contributed some insider knowledge on the particularly horrific shit that happened in Odyssey.
JS: Always. That's my specialty. Particularly, horrific shit.
AM: We should get that on our next t-shirt. We just got our creepy cool t-shirts in from DFTBA. And we are so stoked to have them. The pins look so good. And we're really, really glad that they are still for sale at spiritspodcast.com/merch.
JS: Yeah. If you want to be rocking some Spirits logo, some Spirits swag, you should head to that website and check it out.
AM: And the quicker we sell the inventory that we have, the quicker we can add new designs to the store. So, we definitely want more logo t-shirts. We definitely want more pins. I definitely want some shot glasses. So, we will see what happens.
JS: Shot, shot, shot, shot, shot, shots. So, Amanda, this week's episode is brought to you in part by Audible, who we love and are welcoming back.
AM: Yay.
JS: You can get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial at audible.com/Spirits. And you can stay tuned to hear our recommendations later in this episode.
AM: And we're welcoming our great new sponsor, Storyblocks, which provides high quality stock images, and vectors, and video for a fraction of the cost. You can start downloading all the stuff during a free trial at Storyblocks.com/Spirits. And we'll be telling you much more about it later in the episode.
JS: You know what I want to hear, Amanda?
AM: What?
JS: I want to hear the beautiful majestic sea witches and wizards I suppose, and the binary sorcerers and sorceress, who are now supporting us on Patreon.
AM: Hell yeah. And we will start with our favorite audio sorcerer Mischa followed by Neal, Jayden, Satyr, Betakitten, Raina, Jordan, Lo, Lindsey, Michael, Kaileigh, and Cassie. Thank you so much for joining us y'all.
JS: And you want to tell us about our super special patrons?
AM: You mean those who underwrite our 40-year journeys around the globe? Is that how long the Odyssey was?
JS: No.
AM: I didn't read the Odyssey. Okay.
JS: Man, imagine how old Odysseus would be if he came back after 40 years.
AM: There'll be a lot more fending off of suitors back home.
JS: Yeah, poor Penelope.
AM: Anyway, the people who are not Penelope and who have all the suitors that they want – I don't know – are our supporting producer-level patrons: LeeAnne, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Sara, Katie, Debra, Julie, Dylan, Philip, Cammie, and Chandra.
JS: May all of our supporting patrons get home way easier than Odysseus did.
AM: That's beautiful. I love it.
JS: Thank you. And, speaking of our patrons, Amanda, I think we have a lot to thank them for.
AM: We really do, which is that we are going weekly starting next week.
JS: Oh, god.
AM: Oh, my god. We're so excited. We're scared, and we are stoked. And, and – oh, my god. We can't wait. We have so much in store for you for the month. But what that also means is that there's a little bit of homework on our side, which is that, on Patreon, as creators, we can choose to charge our patrons per episode or per month. Right now, we charge per episode. And we're still going to do that. But, since there's going to be double the amount of episodes, we wanted to make sure that we're not charging you twice as much money for supporting us. So, we're going to give every single tier more stuff and lower the price on every single tier. So, the stuff that used to be $3 per month is now going to be less per month. Hooray.
JS: Yeah, it's like Extreme Home Makeover Patreon Edition for Spirits.
AM: Hell yeah. And everyone out there can check out patreon.com/Spiritspodcast for all the details. Our existing patrons, check your emails or your Patreon inboxes for all the details. We're going to be emailing you, telling you what to expect, letting you know how you can change your pledge. We're going to make everything cheaper, but charge more often. Still end up donating around the same amount that you were before every month.
JS: So, we're going to be making all these changes starting in October, which is next week.
AM: Oh, god.
JS: Yeah. So, the first episodes under the new tiers will be Wednesday, October 4th.
AM: And we are so grateful, we have to say, for your support. We love you. We cannot believe this is happening. And we are so stoked for – what was the hashtag we settled on?
JS: #Creeptober.
AM: Creeptober. We've so many good episodes for Creeptober. We got creepy myths. We got creepy guest stories, creepy hometown urban legends.
JS: And we're going to be kicking off this whole Creeptober business with a classic creepy witch, Circe, featuring a witchy Wonder Woman, Jess Zimmerman.
AM: All right. Let's get to it. Enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 44: Circe with Jess Zimmerman.
Intro Music
AM: We are so happy today to be joined by Jess Zimmerman, who is I think just an authority on witches. Is that fair to say?
JZ: I would say I'm an authority on certain kinds of witches.
AM: Amazing. And you recently wrote a book all about witches with, with your friend, Jaya, right?
JZ: Uhmm. Yeah, who we hoped could be here today, but she is nursing a sore throat. So --
AM: No. She, she got smited by someone.
JZ: She got smitten. Yeah. She really, really got smitten today. So, I sent her some Thai food. So --
JS: That was nice. Yeah.
AM: Good friend.
JZ: But, yeah. So, we're – the book is really about sort of our version of witchcraft which is – which is – hahaha.
AM: Hey.
JZ: -- which is – which is not really as much about kind of the religious side of witchcraft, but it's more about kind of the historical and cultural aspects of witchcraft, which have a lot to do with being kind of a cool ass lady and not taking any crap from anybody. So --
AM: Hell yeah.
JS: The best part of witchcraft in my opinion.
AM: That is what we're here for and, also, to discuss I think one particularly badass witch from history – mythology. I don't know anything. So, tell us all about it.
JZ: She is from mythology. We're going to talk about Circe.
AM: Hey.
JS: When we added this to the document of our schedule, Amanda wrote it, Cersei. Like the Game of Thrones character.
JZ: Well, so, that was --
AM: Listen.
JZ: I was thinking about that. Like I was thinking about that when I was sort of like reading back up on her. And I was like I, I – really I feel like this is probably not an accident.
AM: It must be, right?
JZ: I think yeah.
AM: Like the, the name is like what? One letter off? And I guess, as we learn more – I mean Cersei, the character in Game of Thrones, displays witchy tendencies, you know, a lot.
JZ: Yeah. Witchy tendencies and also like these very specific kinds of, of witchy tendencies or like man-dominating tendencies --
JS: Yes.
JZ: -- that Circe, the enchantress, has. So, the the deal with Circe, the enchantress, is that she's, she's this sort of like very powerful enchantress. She lives alone on an island, except – well, alone except surrounded by – some, some myths have it that she's surrounded by like pigs, and lions, and deer, and stuff like that. And some of them say that she's surrounded by slightly uncanny pigs, and lions, and deer that seems slightly human.
JS: That seems odd.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: That would be like flagged right away.
AM: Strong start though.
JZ: It's less odd when you find out that, in fact, they were completely human. And she just – she uses herbs to drug them. And then she uses her magic wand to turn them into various wild beasts. Like most people, I think, who would know about Circe, they would know about her from the Odyssey because Odysseus and his men encounter her. And they all sort of gorged themselves on this feast that she's put out.
AM: Oh, classic trap.
JS: Never eat the food.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: It’s [Inaudible 7:20].
AM: Never eat the food. If you come across a banquet, if you're in a Fairy Hall, if you're in --
JS: Amanda's favorite.
AM: -- a freakin' – the rocky shores of Scotland, nope, don't do that.
JS: Don't.
AM: And, certainly, not a rocky outcropping in Greece.
JZ: I mean I think she was there at least. Like I don't think it's just that they like came across --
AM: That's worse if there's like a beautiful woman.
JZ: But it does – it remind – it reminded me of that part in Spirited Away.
AM: Yes.
JZ: Where the parents are just like shoveling down food --
AM: Oh, my god.
JZ: -- and then gradually turn into pigs.
AM: They do.
JZ: Yeah. That may also – like, like Cersei from Game of Thrones, that may be a reference.
AM: Yeah. Who knows?
JZ: But, so, she, she knocks them out. She turns them into pigs. This one guy manages to struggle away and tell Odysseus what happened. And part of the reason that, that Jaya and I want to talk about Circe today is that we were – we were reading about her. And Jaya texted me, and she was like, "Did you know that, when Odysseus had to defeat Circe, he used something called holy moly?"
AM: What?
JS: What? I did not know that.
JZ: So, he, he gets in touch with Hermes I think, who says, if you want to neutralize her powers basically, you need to – you know, her powers come – a lot of them from herbs. You need to use this herb called moly.
AM: Oh, wow.
JZ: And it's, it's the holy moly.
AM: And what --
JZ: That's, that's what that comes from.
AM: What was Hermes domain again?
JS: He was like a trickster god, messenger. That sort of thing.
JZ: Yeah. He had – he had a lot of domains. And, yeah, I mean one of them is a trickster god. So, I feel like he would not be the first person that I would listen to for advice.
JS: Yeah.
JZ: But --
JS: Well, Odysseus was also just a super tricky dude in general.
AM: Yeah.
JS: He usually was all up in Athena and Hermes' stuff. I kept – in my mind, kept using the Roman names, which I never do. I don't know why. Hermes also --
AM: You're under the spell.
JS: -- was crossroads and thieves.
AM: Cool.
JS: Yeah.
JZ: Yeah. I used to – I used to have like a really strong like --
JS: Hermes vibe?
JZ: Well, no. I – well, that also. Yeah. Hermes was my favorite, but also, also a very, very strong aversion to ever using the Roman names like when I was a kid.
JS: Me too.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. You’re – like I'm a purist.
JZ: Were – I mean were you a D'Aulaires' kid?
JS: I was a Edith Hamilton kid.
JZ: Oh, wow. That's serious.
JS: Yeah. I was like – I think I asked my mom when I was like seven. I'm like, "Mom, what's a virgin?" She said, "Uhmm. Next question."
AM: Yeah. You're like, "Mom, I'm gonna be an archivist one day. Like, like, let's not fuck around here."
JZ: What do you want to be when you grow up? A virgin.
AM: My version of that, in case anyone was wondering, was I was one of those kids who like read through the whole kids section and was like, "Okay. Well, this is too easy. What next?" And, so, high fantasy was it for a little while. And then, somehow, my parents finally acquiesced and let me go into the young adult section. I was probably like 10 or 11, slightly too young. Slightly too young. And, so, I read The Princess Diaries, which I was very excited about, because it seemed the movie was a thing. And, even as a 10-year-old, I wanted to read the book first. And, so, on the very first or second page I think of the Princess Diaries book, she's talking about how her dad died from testicular cancer. And, so, that led me – before Google – to ask my mom what is a testicle. And she --
JZ: Oh, boy.
AM: That's the only time, in my living memory, that she took a piece of media away from me.
JS: I'm fairly certain too The Princess Diaries is like a little bit raunchy --
AM: I'm sure it gets raunchy.
JS: -- if you keep reading it.
AM: Yeah. But, you know, when, when --
JS: You only get to page two and got testicles. So, you don't get to the actual raunchy parts.
AM: Yeah. But like, when I read the book, Wicked, like when the hot stuff starts happening, I was like, "This is boring."
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like skipped forward. Skip forward.
JZ: I read a lot of books where I was just like, "Well, I'm not 100 percent sure what's happening here."
AM: Yeah.
JZ: But I never like – I don't think I ever asked my mom what a – what a word meant. Like I think I just kind of --
AM: I think that was the last time I did.
JZ: Yeah. You learned your lesson. But I was – I was thinking about this – and this is off topic. But I was thinking about this with Edward Gorey, because I used to read Amphigorey when I was like probably eight.
AM: Wow.
JZ: And, and I can like rattle off all of the words that I learned from Amphigorey, and a lot of them are terrible.
AM: Let's do it.
JZ: Yeah. Well, also – okay. So, lazar, which, which I actually think I did ask my mom what it was, and she didn't know. But it's another word for leper. It's L - A - Z - A - R.
AM: Lazarus style?
JZ: Yes.
JS: I think so.
JZ: I think – I think that's probably where it's from. Yeah. Yegg, which means like a burglar.
AM: Okay.
JZ: Or, I'm fetishes.
AM: There we go.
JS: You don't need to describe that one.
AM: Familiar territory.
JZ: I mean – and that's like, like the Edward Gorey, what's known of them are sex. They’re all violence.
AM: Right.
JZ: But --
AM: Also, also probably bad for a kid.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah. Although, I mean – but also like something that you kind of just skim past if you – if you have no idea of what’s happening.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: I think the Sabriel books for you two were very formative.
AM: Yeah. I'm a big fan of Garth Nix's Sabriel Trilogy. It's about a like necromancer who uses --
JS: Necromancer.
AM: Necro – fucking, Julia. God. Necromancer who, who like brings people back from the dead or brings souls that were like, you know, dragged into death unjustly back and like chases demons and stuff. And it's very violent. It's very grim. And I read them when I was – yeah. I think I'm nine.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: The second book of the whole like first four chapters are about a girl who wants to kill herself.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Yeah, they are.
JZ: See, I feel like kids love that kind of shit.
AM: Oh, I did.
JZ: And are not really that traumatized by it, but I guess, you know, also, are like kind of marked by it.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: But not in a way that like, to me, feels traumatic. Like I definitely feel very marked by stuff like Edward Gorey.
AM: Sure.
JZ: But not where I'm like, "It ruined my life," you know."
AM: I know. And like – and, you know, like so many --
JZ: It's really dull, you know.
AM: Exactly.
AM: Like that shit's dark.
JS: Yeah.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: And so many kids have dark shit in their lives also. And, so --
JZ: Yeah.
AM: -- to contextualize it to see the overcome it in literature. Like that is – that is really real and really valuable I think for a lot of kids.
JZ: But I feel like this is also why I'm not often allowed to buy kids books.
JS: For sure.
JZ: But I do like to buy them D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths, because that's the one that I was like obsessed with --
JS: Yeah.
JZ: -- in like nursery school thereafter. Like the – like I read, you know, the front and back covers off of mine.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: And I did have like a Children's Odyssey also that had like, you know, all of the boring parts took out basically.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That sounds like the version of the Odyssey I want to read.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Somehow, I never read it despite my being a literature major.
JS: I'm shocked by that.
AM: I know. I know. And, at this point, it's just like a streak that I want to continue.
JZ: Just so that you can say that you never --
AM: Right. Yeah.
JS: Like suck it. I never read it.
AM: I know. I know. But back to Circe.
JZ: Yeah. Well, so, so, so, we've done the part that I think was in my children's Odyssey, which is where --
AM: Yes.
JZ: -- she turned the men into pigs. And then Odysseus found out how to defeat her. And he was with this herb, which – so, this is interesting. I was – because I was reading about holy moly.
JS: [Inaudible 13:55].
AM: Holy moly.
JZ: Holy moly. And they don't know exactly what it was. But there's one theory that – that the men weren't actually enchanted. They were just under the influence of a drug like, like Belladonna or a Mandrake or something like that, that like --
AM: Okay.
JZ: -- has particular sort of – that slows you down and that has some hallucinogenic effects. And one of the plants that fits the description of moly is the snowdrop, which does, actually, like counter – I think it's called anticholinergic effects.
AM: Whoa.
JZ: Yeah. So, that would be wild.
JS: Love the science behind mythology.
AM: I know.
JS: It's actually so cool.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: People were so much smarter than me give him credit for. You know, like people were administering medicine in ways that just wasn't called --
JZ: Yeah.
AM: -- the thing that we expect to be called today so often.
JZ: Yeah. And I get – I get very into the like sort of, "Perhaps, it was this real world version of things."
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JZ: Which I also found out is called euhemerism, which I think is a beautiful word.
AM: I love that these $10 words --
JS: Me too.
JZ: I know.
AM: -- coming into our podcast.
JZ: I've been – I've been reading a lot of mythology stuff lately because I've been writing about monsters. And, and, so --
AM: Yes.
JZ: -- you know, there's – you know, so, when you – when you find out like, "Oh well, you know, Charybdis was actually this whirlpool in the Strait of Messina. That's a euhemeristic explanation. I love those.
AM: Yeah. And she --
JS: And you just – you just like touched my heart in a place I didn't know existed. Thank you for that.
AM: Julia looks like she, she just like touched a really adorable puppy.
JS: I am so happy.
AM: A little pocket in your heart reserved for euhemerism.
JS: Pretty much.
AM: And shout out to your series of essays on monsters for a Catapult. It is the dopest ever. And it's also why we were like, "Oh, my god, we need you on the show."
JZ: Thank you. Yeah. I'm really – I'm excited to be doing more monster stuff hopefully, fingers crossed, in the future.
AM: Yes.
JZ: Right now – right now, the series is done, but I've got other plans for it.
AM: Hell yeah.
JS: Sweet.
AM: And we will link it in the description --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- to network this.
JZ: Yey. But, yeah, so, so, so, we're done with sort of the child-appropriate part of Circe.
AM: Oh, my god, let's get it.
JS: Let's get to the adult content.
JZ: We're – so, so, so, what he's told to do with the moly is, is he goes and like uses it to counteract her – you know, her enchantment on his men.
AM: Okay.
JZ: And then he's given specific instructions that he – if, if he wants to take her to bed, like he can and should. But he has to get her to promise first that she won't remove his manhood.
AM: Okay.
JZ: Because like if, if you don't – apparently, if you don't get official like assurances of this from Circe, this is just something that like – and she'll just do it and then she'll be like, "Well, you didn't say not to."
AM: It's always on the table.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: I guess.
JZ: Yes.
AM: Maybe literally. Oh, no.
JS: Yikes.
AM: Oh, my goodness. That's like quite a, you know, expectation-setting conversation to have.
JZ: I mean I think it's very important to sort of talk about consent beforehand.
AM: It is. It is. Find your boundaries, give your yeses, and your nos, and your maybes.
JZ: Exactly.
AM: It's very. important.
JZ: So, yeah. So, they have the sort of like 50 Shades of Grey kind of conversation, where he's like, "No, this is a hard limit. You cannot remove my penis."
JS: It's hard no on dick removal.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: And she's like, "Fine."
JZ: And, so, then – so, they – you know, they go decorously off camera for a while. And then he stays there for a year with his men --
AM: Oh.
JZ: -- which like I feel like I would not. Like I would be like, "Boss, I love you, but this lady turned me into a pig, and I didn't enjoy it."
AM: Wait. The men back as men?
JZ: They're back as men. And they're just like hanging out and eating food, which I would just truly never eat another --
JS: On this island of pig men.
JZ: Yeah.
JZ: Well, so, this is interesting.
AM: Right.
JS: Yeah. Are they eating the pigs that --
JZ: They're not.
JS: -- were really like [Inaudible 17:27]?
AM: Shut up.
JZ: I don't think so.
JS: Yeah. God, that's like [Inaudible 17:28].
JZ: But he only – he only demanded that his men be returned --
JS: Yeah. You don't care about this.
JZ: -- to human form. So, like there are --
AM: They're like the SS Hera. Bye.
JZ: Yeah, I guess it's possible.
JS: Ooh.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: This took a dark turn.
AM: Oh, boy.
JS: Well, it's nothing like dick removal.
AM: Hold on. Hold on.
JZ: If you don't say specifically, "I don't want to eat a pig that was a human," I guess that it's still on the table.
AM: Now --
JZ: As it were.
JS: I'm sorry for that image.
AM: Question. Would it be cannibalism to eat a human that was turned into a pig? I feel like it would be ethically cannibal stuff even if it isn't --
JS: Weird Amanda. Now that we've gotten into this discussion, we can't keep talking about like cannibalism on the show.
AM: What are you talking about? We've talked a little bit about like cannibalism on the show. And, so, periodically, there's someone on Twitter who will be like, "Ummm, did you – did you condone cannibalism?" And just be like, "Did I get that right?
JZ: No. I mean I think – I think that like you're, you're just establishing what it is that we don't condone. We don't condone cannibalism.
AM: Yes.
JZ: I assume you don't condone cannibalism.
AM: Yes. No.
JS: Listen, Amanda and I did an episode with eat a person if you're werewolves. So --
AM: I did. I did. I was drinking moonshine.
JZ: If you're a werewolf, you're not exactly a human, right? So, it's not really --
AM: That's what I'm saying.
JZ: Yeah. Like, if you're, you're --
JS: So, are these pigmen, not actually human.
JZ: I feel like it depends on whether they're conscious of being like human minds in a pig body.
JS: We don't know. They only talk pig.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Hmm.
JZ: There's definitely like some – I don't – I don't remember if The Odyssey talks about it. There are definitely like some treatments of the Circe myth where they're basically aware that they're pigs.
JS: Yikes.
AM: Worst case scenario. Truly.
JZ: I would – I would avoid eating pigs.
JS: I'd avoid eating meat on that island [Inaudible 19:13].
JZ: I would avoid eating meat on that island.
AM: I mean, having just been a pig, I probably would not be super into that.
JZ: That's, that's true. Yeah. You might still have sort of lingering --
AM: Yeah.
JZ: -- pig mind effects.
JS: Yeah. These men might be like, "Oh, I remember what it's like to be a pig. Maybe we shouldn't eat these other pigs."
AM: Yeah. They’ll be, “We’re --
JZ: They might be like, "Do you have any slop?"
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JZ: Like what I would really like it some slop.
AM: Yeah. Like I just have a craving for some like flavorless --
JZ: Yeah.
AM: -- bodiless, semi liquid food.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Also, imagine if you will for one second, they probably ate pig at that feast when they first arrived at the island.
JZ: They – so, they ate a specific thing that wasn't --
JS: Okay.
JZ: -- that wasn't meat.
JS: Okay.
JZ: And I can't remember what. It was like – it was like porridge I think.
JS: Is it that weird thing where it's water and sheep's cheese and then something else? Because that's --
AM: I think it probably was – it sounded like cottage cheese basically.
JS: That's like a thing that the Greeks would eat.
AM: Yes.
JS: And that’s my favorite thing in the world because it sounds disgusting, but, also,I would eat it.
AM: We --
JZ: I mean I would eat it. I love cottage cheese.
AM: We have --
JZ: I would if it weren't enchanted. Yeah.
JS: Okay. That's fair.
AM: We have been preparing for an Ancient Greek dinner party.
JZ: Oh, nice.
JS: And I'm gonna make this shit.
AM: Yeah, where we're gonna serve some period-appropriate food and order pizza later if it goes really bad.
JS: It will not go bad. It's gonna be delicious.
JZ: Are you gonna have a human pig? Human pig roast?
JS: No. I was gonna make sausages.
JZ: Human sausages.
JS: Yeah, human sausages.
AM: Yeah. You never know. Unless, unless I say specifically, "Julia, no human meat at this dinner party," it's always on the table.
JZ: Just wave some moly at her.
JS: Shit. Shit. Shit.
JZ: You know what you should have at this dinner party? You should have some holy mole.
AM: We should.
JZ: Yes.
JS: It's adorable.
AM: We're gonna do it. You're invited.
JZ: Yes.
JS: I've always wanted to make mole. So --
JZ: Yeah. Perfect.
AM: Done. Done. I love committing to the bit and making a dish at a dinner party based on a bit on your podcast is the most neat thing I can imagine.
JS: I completely agree. Can we talk for one second? Because I – this is always the part in the Odyssey that made me dislike Odysseus. And it's because he's off fucking a cool enchantress for a year while his wife is at home literally beating away suitors so that she isn't considered, you know --
AM: Right.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: -- unfaithful.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Yep.
JS: And it sucks.
JZ: Yeah. The Odyssey --
JS: Poor Penelope.
JZ: -- has some pretty fucked up gender. I mean all, all like --
JS: Yeah.
JZ: -- Ancient Greek texts have some pretty fucked up gender politics. That's true. I was just writing for, for one of the Monster essays. I was – I was reading, the Eumenides. And it essentially – the entire play is a court case of like the Furies versus Orestes and like whether it's okay for them to punish him for killing his mother, who killed his father. And it winds up that like the tie-breaking vote goes to Athena. And she says, "Well, you know, I don't have much use for women. So, like --
AM: Yikes.
JZ: -- like, between like a man who killed a woman and a woman who killed a man, like I'm just gonna – I'm gonna say that the man who killed the woman is more right." Like that's, that's the end of that play.
JS: Yeah.
JZ: Like that's how that goes.
JS: That's the problem that you face too with the Medusa myth. Like the original telling --
JZ: Yeah.
JS: -- of the Medusa myth, where Medusa is a virgin priestess in her temple and gets raped by Poseidon. And then she gets turned into a monster, because it's "her fault."
JZ: Also by Athena, who I loved when I was a kid.
JS: Yeah.
JZ: And like both of these stories --
AM: You know, she seems like the best one.
JZ: -- make me feel really like beyond lukewarm about her.
JS: It's just shitty.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: It's almost like the keepers of the written record in history are, are mostly male historically.
JS: That seems odd.
AM: Weird. Weird.
JS: So weird.
AM: But we're a fan --
JZ: We should turn them into pigs.
AM: Oooh.
JS: Oooh, yes, we should.
AM: It gives a whole new meaning to men who are pigs.
JZ: Yes.
AM: Anyway. So, they're frolicking for a year?
JZ: They're frolicking for a year. I mean – and that's, that's pretty much the end of that story. Like, once he decides to go, she, she reluctantly lets him go. And she gives him some, some advice about – like I think she gives him advice on how to go to the Underworld, but she also gives some advice on how to literally leave her Island and – which includes, you know, if you go this way, you're going to go between Scylla and Charybdis and you should go – you should trend closer to the Charybdis side.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: Because Scylla will eat a bunch of your men.
AM: I mean it was nice of her.
JS: And we don't want that.
AM: She's just like, "If I can eat, then no one can."
JZ: Well, so, so what's interesting – and this is also like slightly fucked up gender politics i guess. It's that in a – in a different way, this is – this is like, like fucked up. Like intro woman gender politics. Circe is actually the person who turned Scylla into a monster in the first place.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Oh, Circe.
JZ: And this is – I know. This is the way in which I would say she is not, by any means, a role model. The turning minute to pigs I feel fine about.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And good.
JZ: And the – and even like the maybe like removing your manhood if you don't ask her specifically not to. But, but, yeah, someone, whose name escapes me, fell in love with Scylla when she was just a beautiful human and came to Circe for a love potion. And Circe fell in love with him.
AM: Yikes.
JZ: And, so, she like tricked Scylla into walking into this like drugged water that turns her --
AM: Noooo!
JZ: -- into basically a bunch of barking dogs below the waist.
AM: Whoa.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: I forgot about that part.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: So, a running theme on Spirits is that like mashups of different kinds of animals just freak me the fuck out.
JZ: Whoa.
AM: Like backwards feet on animals as like a demon thing. I'm just like, "No, no, no, no, no." And, so, the idea of mixing it – like even hippogriffs are a little bit like, "I don't know. Let's talk about this."
JZ: Yeah.
AM: But the idea of a person who’s dog below the waist?
JZ: She's several dogs. Yeah. But, but she's, she's, she's the upper half of dogs below the waist. It's my understanding.
AM: What – then what's the leg situation?
JZ: I don't know the leg situation. But the thing is that like, after she's a monster, she really just stays in one place and eats people, who come by in their ships.
AM: Oh, okay.
JZ: So, like it --
AM: Okay.
JZ: She doesn't have to have a leg situation if she doesn't want to.
AM: So, she's like – she's all torso and head.
JZ: I think --
JS: I mean, if she stays in one place though, are they just walking up to her and then getting eaten? Or --
JZ: They're – they're – yeah. They're sailing by.
JS: Okay.
JZ: And then – so, so, what Circe says, at least in the – in the Odyssey, is that she also I guess has – so, these are from two different texts. Right. So, the – they're like walking into the water, you know, and, and, so, turning below the waist, that's from – that's from Ovid, from Metamorphosis.
JS: He does love that metamorphosis into weird animals.
JZ: And trees also.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JZ: Pretty much animals and trees. But, so – but what Circe tells Odysseus in the Odyssey is that, that Scylla has like six – I think six heads that will dart out. And they'll each take one of his men.
AM: Oh, great. So, long neck, which are also horrifying.
JZ: So, long – yeah. Long necks.
AM: Great.
JS: Just hitting all of Amanda’s check marks here.
AM: Awesome. Love it. Ugh, that's so frustrating. But, returning to the, the love potion thing, like I guess then the best love potion vendor would be a gay woman, because like has no interest in your male counterparts. I guess then she could seduce the person coming for the love potion if she's a woman.
JS: Or, would be jealous of the woman who's asking for love potions.
AM: Jealous of the man.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: It depends --
JS: Or like doesn't want them pursuing another person.
AM: That could be.
JZ: Yeah. I mean like the thing is that like both women and men of various persuasions could theoretically come to you for a love potion.
AM: True. True.
JS: That is true.
JZ: So, I think --
AM: I guess, hence, the old crone image --
JZ: Yeah.
AM: -- which is, you know, rendered to be like a sexless and desire-free, you know, entity.
JZ: Probably in an asexual is the best person to give you a love potion.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That is true.
JZ: If, if that's what you're worried about. Like, if you're worried about them falling in love with --
AM: Jealousy of your paramour.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Shoutout [Inaudible 26:39]. You got a niche market there to, to checkout.
JZ: It's a really, really corner lot. Yeah.
JS: Just sell those love potions. I love it.
AM: They're like, "Hey, MFers, you gotta be saddled with this. Then I will help you --
JS: If that's for you, I'm gonna make a profit.
AM: -- manipulate it.” Yeah.
JZ: I feel like the other option is you could – you could only fall in love with people who are sort of objectively not that attractive.
AM: Hmmm.
JZ: And then the person that you're going to for the love potion is probably not going to be interested.
AM: Interesting. Or, you just never let them see your paramour. I feel like that's the – that's the problem.
JZ: Yeah, that's probably that.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: Well, but the thing is that this was the guy who was coming for the love potion. Yeah.
AM: Whoo. Yeah.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: So, never let them see you. You have to like – you have to have like one of those --
JS: Wear a veil.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: Wear a veil or you have like a confession booth --
JS: Situation.
JZ: -- situation.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Like confession booths.
AM: Nice. Like a bank teller window.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: So, you just --
JS: Right.
AM: -- see your holy moly --
JZ: You just slide it through there. Yeah
AM: -- or your love potion. And you're going to walk away happy.
JZ: Yes.
AM: And, before we learn more, Jules, I think I need a refill.
JS: Same, dude. This week we are welcoming back Audible as one of our sponsors. You can go to audible.com/Spirits and get a free audiobook with a 30-day trial. We love bingeing podcasts. Amanda, almost, is caught up with Wolf359.
AM: Oh, my god, guys, it got so intense. I can't --
JS: You're, you have so much --
AM: I can't.
JS: -- to look forward to.
AM: I can’t. But what am I going to do, Julia, when it's all over?
JS: Well, so, Amanda, you can just go to Audible --
AM: I know. I know.
JS: -- and listen to some of their amazing audiobooks, because audiobooks are just very long audio dramas basically.
AM: Or, a very short audio dramas compared to some of the ones that we binge that take 20 plus hours.
JS: That is true.
AM: But, like audio dramas, they are voice acted in many cases. They are really well produced. They're easy to listen to. They're mad bingeable. And what I'm going to recommend to you is – actually, let's call it a one shot. It's kind of short. It's only five hours and change. And it's entitled We Are Okay by Nina Lacour. Now, when I checked this book out of the library – I started it in an actual book and I finished it in audiobook. The librarian was like, "Oh, my god. I have heard so much about this book. You have to come back on the day that I'm working and tell me how it was." And, so, I made her follow me on Twitter so she can just asked me how it was. But We Are Okay is the story of a woman who goes off to college and the kind of like mysterious circumstances under which she left her hometown and finds herself staying at her icy eastern coast college over winter break. So, she's like the only person in the dorm, only person on campus besides the caretaker there between Christmas and New Year. And, oh, my god, it's so good. It's mad queer. And I cannot recommend it highly enough. It is a beautiful book.
JS: That sounds amazing. The book that I'm actually going to recommend is coming out the day that this episode comes out.
AM: What timing.
JS: Which is amazing because I was stoked. I was going to preorder it on Amazon. And then I saw that they have the audiobook feature through Audible. So, you know I pre-ordered that thing. I'm going to start listening to it tomorrow, which is today for people listening to this.
AM: Hell yeah. Hell yeah.
JS: And that is Provenance by Ann Leckie. If anyone knows Ann Leckie's Sci-fi stories are the bomb.com. And I am so stoked to see not a continuation of the trilogy that she premiered with, but in the same universe, which is really, really exciting.
AM: I love those stories. And our fav Garth Nix also has some of these like novella short stories and other installments in the Old Kingdom Trilogy universe that aren't part of the actual Trilogy Now series.
JS: Yeah. No. But I am stoked and I can listen to it. Thanks to Audible.
AM: Absolutely. You can do though if you go to audible.com/Spirits. This offer – this URL is just for Spirits listeners. It's going to let them know that you guys love reading and you love supporting us. Get your 30-day free trial. Get your audiobook. Even after the trial, you still own the book. You can still listen to it. It's awesome.
JS: Yeah. It's really, really cool. And we love Audible.
AM: We are also sponsored this week by StoryBlocks, which is a website that provides high quality stock images for a fraction of the cost. So, if you make websites, if you make animations, if you make animatic videos of your favorite podcasts, if you do whatever, if you have an Instagram where you put text over images, you can do all of this stuff. You can download all the stock that your heart desires from their member library, which has over 400,000 stunning photos, vectors, textures, icons, everything you can need. So, if you go to storyblocks.com/Spirits, you can get a free seven-day trial. It's unrestricted guys. You can download whatever the heck you want.
JS: So, what I'm going to do Amanda --
AM: What?
JS: -- is I'm going to challenge Spirits listeners.
AM: O, man.
JS: Whoever finds the coolest photo on StoryBlocks after using it during their seven-day trial and tweeted it at us or sends it to us via Facebook or whatever --
JS: -- I will praise you to the high heavens on all of our social media. And you'll get a special shout out in our next episode.
AM: Even email.
AM: I am so excited to see what kind of beautiful stock images you guys can get. They're not going to be like funny, because they're horrible. They're just going to be funny, because they're so specific.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I cannot wait to see what you guys end up searching for and finding. So, that's storyblocks.com/Spirits for a free seven-day trial. Download anything from their library and their marketplace, all the kinds of features you could possibly want. So, thank you so much to StoryBlocks for sponsoring us. They know that you guys are creative and you love making stuff. And I think it's gonna be a really good fit for our audience.
JS: And send me some amazing photos.
AM: All right. Now, back to the myth. So, what else about Circe is badass or cool apart from turning men into pigs and being kind of like dope herbal – I don't know – witch? Like what, what does she do or have or what's the mythos about her that makes her such a cool character to you?
JZ: I mean I think what I like about her is the same thing that I like about a lot of the sort of cultural images of witches that we talked about in the book. And, also, the, the women who were accused of witchcraft historically, which we also talked about in the book. It's that like her entire thing is that she is threatening to men. Like men find her threatening. And they find her – you know, like she's, she's scary because of her power over them. She's scary because of her seductive ability. She's scary because she has knowledge that they don't about --
AM: Yeah.
JZ: -- you know, about globalism and potions and stuff like that. And, and those are all things – like even, even when I would not like technically advise turning men into pigs if such a thing was – were possible --
JS: We can't technically --
AM: Your honor.
JZ: I can't. Yeah. I can't technically condone that in the way that I can't technically condone, you know, eating a pig that used to be a human. But --
AM: Right. Or cut off someone's genitalia.
JZ: Right.
AM: Like, like not – no.
JZ: And she, she wasn't gonna cut it off. She was just gonna like magic it off.
AM: Oh, oh, that's better.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: That's better.
JZ: It wasn't like a gory thing.
JS: We get so many Twitter notifications are like cannibalism this episode. Why do you do this for me?
JZ: I know. I know.
AM: Well, we also got an email recently of someone being like, "I don't like how you always assume that the men are at fault in your readings of myths." And I was like, "That's our whole point, babycakes." Like --
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Like just – let's just for a second assume – like give the women the benefit of the doubt.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like just, for once, for a second, try that. That's the show.
JZ: If you want to assume that the women are at fault, you have literally the rest of all of history and literature.
AM: Yeah, good news for you, buddy.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: You got – you got all of it.
JZ: Just anything else.
JS: That sweet double standard exists, you know, in all of mythology, where the dudes can just fuck whatever they want.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But, also, the concept of Western, you know, relationships doesn't apply to all cultures.
AM: Exactly.
JS: Same with like the Mami Wata thing versus the Zeus thing, where established relationships are a thing for Greek mythology, but not necessarily for the Mami Wata myth.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Awesome.
JZ: Well – and this is actually one of the cool things about Circe also. It's that she's – that's, that's one of the sort of double standards that she's not really held to, because she is just, you know, seducing her way through. And she's not – you know, she's not like running all over Greece, because she's stuck on her Island.
JS: Hell yeah.
JZ: But, but it's not like – it's not like with Penelope. Like there's not this sort of --
AM: Right.
JZ: -- assumption that she's going to now be faithful to Odysseus forever.
JS: And beat off 500 guys who are trying to marry her.
JZ: Yeah. Right.
AM: Instead Circe has those good, good incoming, you know, submissions and can pluck the good ones out of the pile.
JZ: Right. And, and one of the things that I like about her is that she kind of just assumes there aren't any good ones.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: Like it's not like she's going through the men and being like – like she's not doing a like history of the world part one kind of like --
AM: Right. Right. Right.
JZ: -- you know, yes, yes, yes, no.
JS: He'll do.
JZ: Yeah. She's, she's just like, "I'm, I'm just going to assume you all need to be pigs."
AM: Awesome. Unless proven otherwise.
JS: That’s the assumption.
JZ: Yes, exactly.
AM: That's actually a pretty good dating strategy.
JZ: It really is. And it, it's kind of how I dealt with online dating. It was great. It was extremely, extremely effective.
AM: Yeah. There needs to be like way more than five reasons that this could actually be not terrible.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: And then – and then you go for it.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: TM book idea, online dating but for Greek mythology.
AM: Whoa.
JS: Yeah. TM. TM.
AM: Pretty good. Pretty good.
JZ: That's really good.
AM: We can do --
JZ: Okay. Let me know if you need a co-author. I'm a very good co-author.
JS: You got it.
JZ: Jaya is not here to contradict me, but she actually wouldn't. We've, we've written about how great it was to write a book together.
AM: You have, which I'm also going to credit in our description because doing projects with my childhood best friend from literally kindergarten.
JS: Awww.
AM: I know, it's adorable. It's – you know, we've also – like so much of the [inaudible 35:56] lessons, Julia and I was like, "There's so much here that we agree with." Like it was – it was a really awesome look and something that people don't write about enough.
JZ: Yeah. And it's something that like you do have to be really cautious moving forward on something like that. Like, you can't just – you can't just start a podcast with any best friend.
AM: Yes.
JS: That's true.
JZ: And you can't just write a book with any best friend.
JZ: I feel like especially a podcast. Like the thing is that like, if Jaya and I had clashed, which we truly never did in a like really sort of miraculous way.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: But, if we had clashed – we only wrote the book for six months.
AM: Sure.
JZ: And, and, you know – and now we're sort of promoting it together. But – so, that's, that's probably like – that's like a year and a half maybe that we would have had to like stand each other.
AM: And there's an end date also.
JZ: Yeah. But, yeah. But the podcast is just like you're, you're doing it every week.
JS: Oh, yeah.
JZ: It's like --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: I, I just recently got engaged to my fiance, who we dated for eight years. And I just recently floated the idea. I'm like, "Maybe we should do a podcast."
AM: Yeah. I was like, "Julia that is the appropriate amount of time to wait."
JZ: [Inaudible 36:50].
JS: Thank you.
AM: So, to be like, "Okay. Well, let's just like see if we like each other." Okay. Eight years later, "Okay. It's time to do a podcast."
JZ: Yeah.
JS: We're good. We're gonna get married and also have a podcast.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I think those are my two levels of high commitment.
JZ: But those are – but that's the order that you did it.
JS: Yeah.
JZ: Like you decided to get married first.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly. Yeah.
JZ: And then you decided to do a podcast.
JS: Yeah. Pretty much.
AM: And Jules and I had a good 19 to 20 years of friendship before we decided to start this podcast.
JS: That real life.Yeah.
AM: We were like, "Okay. All right. You know, we, we can --
JS: We're good. We're good.
AM: -- we can test this now."
JZ: I mean, by, by that rubric giant, we really like rushed into things. We've only been --
AM: You guys had a shotgun marriage.
JZ: -- which I love. I'm so – I'm so relieved. It worked out.
AM: It was awesome.
JS: When I was in college, I wrote a paper – because I was a history and religious studies major, I wrote a paper on Greek mythology and just how bad early mythology was at victim blaming.
JZ: Oh, man. Yeah.
JS: So, I'm so – I'm so into the story of Circe because she's not necessarily a victim. And she's definitely not being blamed for anything. But she is very much – when you're looking at the Odyssey, she's kind of framed as a villain. She's stopping Odysseus from, you know, getting home to his wife, which kind of sucks. But I – the reason I love this interpretation, the reason why I'm so glad you're telling her story is because we're looking at a side of it where she's very empowering instead of an obstacle.
AM: Yeah.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And I think that's a really good point. And we kind of touched on it a little bit when we did our Medusa episode, where we can look now at the stories where women are villains and really kind of retell them and shape them to tell a better story, and one that's more accurate.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: And I think your book really touches on that quite a bit.
JZ: Yeah. No. It definitely does. Like this is, you know, where the, the idea of kind of the frightening witch comes from. That it's that – that it's really just the, the flip side of things that we now are very proud of and probably, at the time, we're also proud of by her power.
AM: Quietly. Secretly.
JZ: Yeah, exactly. Like power and knowledge are things to, to cherish. And I think that like, if you asked Circe, you know, she would say, "I'm not a villain. I'm, I'm an enchantress."
JS: Yeah.
JZ: That's an amazing thing to be.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Magic and shit.
JZ: Yeah. And the problem really is like the, the filter that we've always been reading and writing it through is this very patriarchal filter. And, so, that was – that was – you know, that's what happened – what has happened with sort of the image of the enchantress and the witch for, you know, millennia really at this point. It also relates a lot to the – to the monster essays because like that's kind of – what I'm looking at is this idea that, you know, all of the female monsters in mythology – like all of them are embodying something that, that I think and that, that you guys would think is a positive quality.
AM: Right.
JZ: And it gets sort of turned on its head the way that it's being described.
AM: Yeah. Like fierceness, independence, you know, studiousness, just ability. Like all of these things if, if the history keepers and the – you know, like, like the, the storytellers are the ones being either disempowered, threatened or, you know, victimized by those qualities, like, of course, you're going to make it an adversarial and, and, you know, scary kind of monster-esque thing.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. So, that's – I mean one of the – one of the things that I think is cool about Circe is that she's not really – and, actually, I think this is why I was thinking maybe she's related to – like maybe it's a deliberate homage to the name of the Game of Thrones character.
AM: Yes.
JZ: It's because she's not really a victim first. You know, she's not like Medusa --
AM: Yeah. Right.
JZ: -- where she's, you know, being punished for something, which is also – you know, Charybdis is also being punished for something. I'm trying to think of who else. In – I think, in some stories, the harpies are. Like a lot of them like they become monsters because they're being punished for some quality that they were not supposed to have. She's not being punished for anything. Like she has sought out this knowledge. And she has set herself up on this island, you know. And, and she's kind of just sort of living her truth, you know.
AM: And like --
JZ: I hate to say that because it sounds like it's something out of like, like --
AM: Some terrible self-help book.
JZ: Yeah. Like eat, pray, turn the men into pigs. But --
JS: Listen, I worked in social media. Live my truth was a thing that we would always say all the time.
JZ: Yeah. She was #livinghertruth.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Were she wearing millennial pink in her enchantress robes as she did sought them out?
JS: What is millennial pink?
JZ: Oh, man.
AM: Oh, man. It's a whole internet thing.
JS: Oh, god.
AM: It's like – it's like a color stereotypically used by millennials bought by millennials. Like just the, the kind of like --
JS: Like rose gold.
JZ: Sort of rose gold. Yeah.
JS: Oh, okay. Good.
AM: Yes.
JS: I'm glad we're on the sampe here.
AM: See, you know. You know. It was [Inaudible 41:25].
JS: I just never heard millennial pink before.
AM: It's a thing.
JS: Okay.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: I trust you.
AM: But like isn't that the most monstrous thing of all to choose to be a monster? You know what I mean?
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Like, if you're – if you're turned into that – like I think Medusa is kind of easy and popular for people to be like, "Oh, okay. Well, this was thrust upon her." And, so, it's easy to dehumanize. It's easy not to think about her origin story. Whatever. But, for someone to be like, "No, actually, this is what I want to do."
JZ: Yeah.
AM: You know that – the fact that someone could choose to live outside of the prescribed roles for their social status, their gender, their race, their ethnicity, whatever, like that I think is the thing that really scares people.
JZ: Yeah. And it really brings home the fact that like what you call a monster or what you call, you know, a witch is very much defined by, you know, sort of somebody else's idea of what's acceptable, you know, and what's – you know, what's, what's an okay way to be in. And what are – like what are the boundaries on --
AM: Yeah.
JZ: -- the way that you're allowed to live your life?
AM: Yeah. I think that's why we so often go to a clear lens on mythology and go to a feminist lens, because like, you know, feminism – like, you know, we have to learn how to analyze and kind of strike back against like the world that we were put in. But the thing that I've always loved, anyway, about being queer is like it just invites you to imagine new ways of being in your whole life. Like, you know, if you're going up and kind of looking at the image of a nuclear family, for example, and saying like, "Well, you know, that probably doesn't match me." It's like the whole world is open then, and it's terrifying.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: But also kind of like, "Oh, well, you know, what – how do I want to live?" And it, it just – I don't know. It feels more possible to choose unconventional options.
JZ: Well – and, and queerness – and like both, both queerness in sexuality and also gender queerness like threaten people for the same reasons that like --
AM: Yeah.
JZ: -- you know, a monster or which threatens people. It's because it is sort of troubling these categories. It's – and it's becoming – and this is like – I think it's funny that, that you're like so upset by like creatures that are part one animal and part another, because like, basically, every monster that I've been writing about is part one animal and, and part another --
AM: Yeah.
JZ: -- or even like three or more animals. And that kind of represents their, you know, sort of fundamental category breaking --
AM: Yes.
JS: Yeah, their ugliness.
JZ: -- which is really where their --
JS: Yeah.
JZ: -- where their monstrosity comes from. And I think that that's like the same kind of category troubling that like – that, that upsets people in a – in what I think is ultimately a positive way about queerness.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, when you combine those different parts of animals, like you combine the most powerful parts of different ones. And it feels like, "Oh, no. That's cheating," right? Like I think that's my like animal hindbrain. You know, it's looking at a – looking at, you know, a multi-part animal and being like, "Oh, no. That's not fair. Like, like I can't fight that one. I could fight a lion maybe." You know, but, if it's – if it's like superpower, that's something different. And isn't that what witches are also? It's saying like, "What if you not just, you know, allowed women to be ambitious and to strive for bodies of knowledge, but you allow them to study, you know, and to like unlock parts of the world that are traditionally cloistered. And you didn't give them the back-breaking labor of running a household all day long. And, also, they're not interested or, you know, needing to like make themselves look appealing to men for suitors.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Like, oh, my – like what then? That is like a supercharged like Super Mario star-eating person that can like take over the world.
JZ: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: That, that reference was so not on brand for you, and I'm so proud.
AM: Listen, I owned three video games as a kid: Super Mario, Pokemon, and Spyro the Dragon. So, if you want to talk any of those, get at me.
JS: I want to talk Spyro the Dragon sometime with you.
AM: Oh, my god. That, that, that first version where you were able to swim – like you couldn't swim as this little dragon like exploring a world in the first like three or four games. And then, in one of them, suddenly, they introduced the mechanic of swimming. And, so, the first like intro scene required you to cross a river. And I remember being like, like, waiting there with my controller being like, "Emmm. But I can't swim. But, but I can't." And then like --
JS: Well, because there are [Inaudible 45:23] can float up off right away.
AM: Right. And then, eventually, I was like, "Well, I guess I'm just gonna have to do it." Like walked forward and then I was like, "Haa! A whole new world!"
JZ: Oh, my god.
AM: It's so exciting.
JZ: There's an essay in that.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Let's talk about it for a sec.
AM: Yeah. I have actually a text file of what I call overwrought metaphors, which is like me remembering things and then being like, "This could be the crux of something --
JZ: Yeah.
AM: -- if I had the – if I had the like heart and – I don't know courage – to write it.
JS: I'm so proud of you.
JZ: I could only do Monkey Island. That's the extent of my childhood video games.
AM: That one was good too. That was – that was my brother. So, I couldn't – I couldn't play that one.
JZ: Oh, yeah.
AM: He didn't share when he was a kid.
JS: I was a – we would go to grandmas, and she would – she had an ES I guess. And we would play Super Mario.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: And then I just recently bought myself a copy of Kingdom Hearts for the PS4 because that was my jam. And I just started playing it today.
AM: Beautiful.
JZ: That's awesome.
JS: So good. I can literally quote the first 10 minutes of gameplay for all the cutscene.
JZ: Oh, my god.
JS: It's amazing. Man.
JZ: Yeah. I had a friend with it – with a Nintendo, but I never had one. And, so, like I just got really good at watching people play video games. And I still – I still truly enjoy watching people play video games.
AM: Me too.
JS: It's kind of fun, honestly.
JZ: It's relaxing.
AM: Yeah. I hear that like, you know, women watching men do stuff. Like that's like a trope that is problematic and stuff.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: But I'm like, "I will watch people play video games all day long."
JZ: Yeah.
AM: Like I watch speed runs. And I watch --
JZ: Yeah.
AM: -- you know, the like play through videos on YouTube. Like it's just – it's awesome.
JZ: I mean especially if there's a story. Like I had a really wonderful party, where I didn't know party things besides like sit on a couch, and drink, and watch my friend play through Portal.
AM: Beautiful.
JZ: And it was like watching --
AM: That's a very nice one.
JZ: -- a weird movie.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff.
JS: I had a lot of older male cousins. So, I would just watch them play video games --
JZ: Yeah.
JS: -- because, one, it would be at their house. So, I don't have any control over the console. But it was just fun. That's why I like storytelling games in particular, because, you know, watching someone do Super Mario was fine. But, if you're watching someone play through something that actually has a story, that's the best part --
JZ: Yeah.
JS: -- for me because it's like watching a movie that you can interact with.
AM: Right. And you can be like, "No, don't go left." And then they don't go left.
JZ: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or, they do and say, "Fuck you." Well, thank you so much Jess for joining us and remind us how and where can we get your beautiful book.
JZ: It is called Basic Witches. And it's for sale now. You can get it on Amazon. You can get it on Barnes & Noble. You can get it in a lot of places.
AM: You can get it at the Astoria Bookstore, which is my local.
JZ: You can get it at the Astoria Bookstore, which it was actually like a number one seller the week after we --
AM: Hey.
JS: Hey.
JZ: Yeah. Like --
AM: You had your launch party there, right?
JZ: We had our launch party there. And, and I guess that was what made it like – it went out ahead of like some really big names. So, I was your very, very --
AM: You're a number one bestselling author now.
JZ: You don't have to cite that source. That's --
AM: Who gives a shit? Just put it in those little film olive things and then just call it a day.
JZ: Yeah. Just like number one bestselling author...
AM: Yeah.
JZ: And the ... is at the Astoria Bookshop, which is a wonderful place.
JS: A little [Inaudible 48:15].
JZ: I love it.
AM: It is. It is very tiny.
JZ: Yeah.
AM: And very cute.
JZ: Yes.
JS: You also didn't have to pay for your bestseller thing. Like that – that's really --
JZ: Yeah.
JS: That crazy story about the woman who paid for her New York Times bestseller book.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: I will link the story in the show notes.
AM: Whoa. So many links there.
JZ: I actually – I actually wrote up – you can – you can link Electric Literature's coverage of it.
AM: Hey.
JS: The story, I was following it live when it was happening. It was crazy.
JZ: I wasn't. I like got clued in on it later, which was nice because the – because like the --
AM: It was done.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
JZ: -- the tweets were all sort of collected. But --
AM: And where can people stay up to date on your various manifold internet projects and Jaya's?
JZ: So, my Twitter, which is where I do most manifold internet projects is J_Zimms. That's Z - I - M - M - S. And Jaya's is Jayasax, J - A - Y - A - S - A - X.
AM: Man.
JZ: And you should definitely follow her too, because she is amazing. I'm really sorry that she couldn't be here.
AM: We'll have her on for something else in the future.
JZ: Yes. You won't regret it.
AM: I really envy your Twitter handle. I have tried every permutation of my name, Amanda McLoughlin, but it just does not work.
JZ: Oh, yeah.
JS: Mine is just my name.
AM: Yep. And it's short and lovely.
JS: Yes.
AM: Like you. Well, listeners, thank you so much. And, Jess, thank you again for coming on.
JZ: Thank you for having me. It's been great.
JS: And, remember, stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page patreon.com/Spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, directors commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share this with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil