Episode 250: The Magic of Home (with Sarah Hollowell)
/There’s something magical about the magic of home, and Sarah Hollowell wrote a whole book about it. We talk about spending time in the elementary school forest, being raised nerdy, and writing books for your high school self.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of gore, abuse, child endangerment, queerphobia, mental illness, racism, fatphobia, bugs, and anger issues.
Guest
Sarah Hollowell is a queer fat Hoosier writer aiming to up the magic quotient of Indiana.She graduated from Ball State University with a degree in creative writing, and she remains there to this day. Sarah’s debut YA contemporary fantasy novel, A Dark and Starless Forest, is available now. Her work has also appeared on The NoSleep Podcast, Huffington Post, and Fireside Magazine, among others.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends the new season of Survivor.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out NEXT STOP: An audio sitcom that explores the turbulent time of your mid-to-late 20s when everyone is changing around you -- and you worry that you might not catch up. Season 1 is out now! Search for NEXT STOP in your podcast app or go to nextstopshow.com
Sponsors
- Skillshare is an online learning community where you can learn—and teach—just about anything. Explore your creativity at Skillshare.com/spirits and get a free trial of Premium Membership. This week Amanda recommends “The Ultimate Self-Care Playbook” with Jonathan Van Ness.
- Doordash is a fast, convenient food delivery app. Get 25% off and zero delivery fees on your first order of $15 or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter code “creepycool”.
- Brooklinen delivers luxury bed sheets, pillows, comforters, loungewear, & blankets straight to your door. Go to Brooklinen.com right now and use promo code “spirits” to get $20 off when you spend $100 or more.
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 250: The Magic of Home and so much more with Sara Hollowell.
JULIA: Sarah was such a delight to talk to. I feel like sometimes we come out of interviews and like, "Wow, what a fantastic person, like, really, really great to talk to them. Had a lot of insightful things. And then sometimes we finish interviews, I'm like, "Wow, what a great person. I want to be friends with this person forever."
AMANDA: I know. I know.
JULIA: And Sarah was definitely the latter.
AMANDA: And I am just so excited. We got to talk about so much stuff. Ever since I saw the cover of her newest book or upcoming book on Twitter, like, almost a year ago, I think, it was just absolutely apparent that this is something that all conspirators need to know about. So, we're going to get into that and much, much more. But first, we want to welcome and thank our newest patrons; Michaelie, Psyche, and Kyle. I almost said Kylie because of the way that Michaelie and Psyche's names are spelled. And Kyle, thank you so much. And thank you to our supporting-producer-level patrons whose support sustains us and that's why you are a supporting producer, you support us. Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi.
JULIA: You sustain us like the prayers sustained the Greek gods whenever, like, someone was like, "Oh, I have this wonderful bounty. It lets me make small sacrifices of, like, corn and whatnot to Zeus and Demeter.
AMANDA: I love that so much, and thank you to our legend-level patrons who I think will be able to navigate their way through starless forest: Audra, Clara, Drew, Jaybaybay, Ki, Lexus, Mary, Morgan, Morgan H., Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: What wonderful people. What wonderful people. Really, really the, the nymphs and the naiads to our Greek gods.
AMANDA: They absolutely are.
JULIA: So, Amanda, I know, like, we were getting into spooky season now. What have you been watching, listening to, reading lately? Is it spooky?
AMANDA: Not spooky at all, Julia. I am, I am so excited about the return of Survivor tomorrow. It has been a very bleak year and a half without Survivor on the airwaves, and it is back. And it is my favorite reality TV show. I love it dearly. I listen to [2:09] podcasts. I like, make a count. I like, have a calendar of Survivor episodes, like, I know when they're coming out. I did a little draft with myself where I picked the players that I thought were most likely to make it to the finals.
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: And this cast is half POC for the first time in survivor history, and it's a part of a bigger initiative that, that the network is making. And everybody on that cast looks so interesting. There's only one or two people where I'm like, "I hope you're a villain and I hate you." Everybody else is just, like, “You seem great sweetie and I want you to succeed.” I could not be more excited. If you think that survivor is just kind of, like, a whatever TV show that's been on for, you know, 21 years which it has been. Give it a go, this might be a really good season to get started.
JULIA: I'm just so curious as to how they keep it fresh and new every season because, like, I know the, the people dynamics is a huge part of the show but I'm so curious it's like, what's happening with immunity idols. And is there, like, a necklace now or something? I don't know.
AMANDA: The thing is Julia, no one loves their job more than Jeff Probst loves his job.
JULIA: He really does.
AMANDA: And Jeff Probst loves survivor. He loves it. He wants to be fun. He wants to be interesting. It's a shorter season than normal. The, like, the amount of time they spend on the island is shorter. So, it's going to kind of, like, move faster and be harder. So, it's just, you know, it's the small things that, that make you excited and, and give you a reason to look forward to Wednesdays or Thursdays or whatever. Wait, guys. It's today. It's Wednesday. The 22nd Okay, I'm so excited, Survivor. Yes, get on it.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, do you know what other show on the Multitude network talks about Survivor just as much as we do here on Spirits?
AMANDA: What is it?
JULIA: I believe it would be our audio sitcom, Next Stop, which I specifically remember has scenes from Survivor in it.
AMANDA: The roommates watch Survivor much like I did and, and, and so many people in their 20s, you know, you have the reality show or the series that you marathon with your friends. And next up is all about, you know, that time in your 20s when people are growing up around you and you're kind of like, "Ugh, am I going to catch up?"
JULIA: It's 10 episodes in their first season. They followed these three roommates who are going through trials in, like, work. and relationships. and friendships. And we watch them grow as a unit no matter what life throws at them. And if you, like, grew up watching classic sitcoms, there's nothing more comforting in times of stress and upheaval than, like, revisiting those good vibes of the classic sitcom. And it is, like, solidly a 21st century sitcom. So, it gives you something to laugh about without having to punch down which is what I love about the show.
AMANDA: Me too and season one is available in its entirety for you to marathon now. Just search for Next Stop in your podcast app or go to nextstopshow.com.
JULIA: Heck yeah. Next Stop, choo-choo, that's the train to the podcast.
AMANDA: I love it so much. Trains industry, we got to love it. Well, folks, without further ado, congrats to Sarah Hollowell on your book being out and enjoy Spirits podcast episode 250: The Magic of Home, with Sarah Hollowell.So excited, another Twitter avatar made real right in front of me here on the podcast. Sarah Hollowell, welcome. Thank you for joining us and please let the people know who you are.
SARAH: Hello. I am a young adult author, apparently, that's still weird to say. My debut book is coming out next month. So, it doesn't quite feel real, or I guess next month right now, who knows what time it will be when this comes out.
JULIA: It will just have come out I think.
SARAH: Yes, wonderful. By day, I work at a university. So, that's very exciting. And by day and also by night, I write and play a lot of video games. Pretty much.
JULIA: Nice.
AMANDA: We're going to talk a lot about, like, representation and writing and blah, blah, blah. Can you tell me what video games you're super into because I'm on my third playthrough of Stardew. And it's just, like, I don't know what else to do with myself.
SARAH: I love Stardew. I spent several months this summer being extremely obsessed with Cozy Grove.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: It is so cute. I, right now, I got back into replaying Hollow Knight, which is one of my favorite games.
JULIA: Nice.
SARAH: And I replayed it almost up to the end, and then I didn't want to do the final boss fight because it's hard. So, I just started a new game instead and started playing again.
AMANDA: That's self care.
SARAH: I'm an animal crossing person. Hades stuff. I don't know, I. Zelda. I was raised on Nintendo so, like, I've only ever really had Nintendo consoles and I don't do computer games. So basically, if it's on a Switch, I usually have played it but.
JULIA: Nice.
SARAH: Yeah. Mostly that. And then, my boyfriend and I will play, like, Mario Kart and Super Smash and he always annihilates me.
JULIA: I say, you know, it's a good relationship because then you can just be like, "Yeah, he always beats me but we still keep playing." That's how you know.
SARAH: Exactly. No, it's like, I have no idea what I'm doing. He knows how to do all this special news and I'm just, like, I'm Zelda and I'm jumping around.
AMANDA: Yeah, I'm Jigglypuff. I'm going to hang out or I'm Kirby and I will eat you. That's how I play.
SARAH: It's fun.
JULIA: It's all you need. So, because we are, we're celebrating your debut YA fantasy novel, I think my first question is kind of going to be like, "What first drew you to fantasy?" Like, at what point did you discover, like, "Oh, this is the genre for me." And then, what point did you say, like, "I think I want to write something about this."
SARAH: I feel like I don't know, when I haven't been into fantasy. I was raised by nerds. My father's favorite books are Lord of the Rings. First movie came out when I was, like, 10 I think. 10 or 11, and I wasn't allowed to see it until I read the book, that was my father's rule. I could not see it until--
AMANDA: Wow.
SARAH: --the ring. I think he wouldn't have actually done that because I distinctly remember reading, like, the last 20 pages frantically on the way to the theater. So, I think he would still let me see it no matter what.
JULIA: That's fair.
SARAH: But I've just always read fantasy. My aunt always gave me loads of fantasy books. She got me into, like, I think she's the one who gave me the Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia Wrede, which are incredible.
JULIA: Is that the one where it's the princess who runs away and ends up being, like, a maid for a bunch of dragons?
SARAH: Yes.
JULIA: Oh, my God. I haven't met anyone else who has read those books. I loved those books as a kid.
SARAH: They're incredible. They're incredible. And I think those are probably the ones that really, because I've been writing since I was a kid and, like, one of the first books I wrote, I say book because it was probably like 50 pages, but I was 11 so it's a book.
JULIA: That's long for an 11-year-old.
AMANDA: It is.
SARAH: Exactly. The first one I wrote, second, maybe. I guess the first one was actually kind of a Fear Street ripoff. The second one, I guess, was an Enchanted Forest ripoff. Yeah, no. I think that might have been what made me go, "I want to write fantasy," because I just loved those books so much and I wanted to write something that made me feel the way those books made me feel. Probably didn't achieve that at 11, but I had a lot of fun writing it and I kept writing so I guess it worked out. But I just always loved, I mean, I love a lot of genres, honestly. I lean more towards writing and contemporary fantasy trying out or things like that. Sci-fi intimidates me a little bit for writing but reading I love it. But yeah, no, I was just, I was raised by weird nerds and so I've just always been a weird nerd also.
JULIA: Mentioning Fear Street, how do you feel about the movies that just came out?
SARAH: I fucking love them
JULIA: Okay, good.
SARAH: I loved them.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: I had to sit my husband down and watch him because I think he's going to like it, but I, I'm excited that everyone I've spoken to about them has liked them so far.
SARAH: Like, I wasn't, like, the first one I was like, "That was fun." Like, I enjoyed it and I thought it had the vibe of the books really down because those are some just, like, I forgot how bloody those books really are. I re-read a couple and I was like, "Damn, okay, no, this is actually pretty accurate."
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
SARAH: I read them when I was like 10 but cool. By the time we got to the third one and the way they wrapped the trilogy up. I was just like, yes, this is so good. I loved it. It was perfect. It was perfect. I want to re-watch them and my boyfriend liked them a lot more than he thought he was going to because he was like, "Yeah. I guess we'll watch it." He's just humoring me. He doesn't really like horror or anything and he ended up liking them. So, I think that is already a vote in its favor because he doesn't like anything in terms of, like, horror or slasher or anything like that.
JULIA: Well, talking about things that are surprisingly dark and also wonderful to visit A Dark and Starless Forest
AMANDA: Ooh, nice, Julia.
JULIA: Thank you.
SARAH: [5:10]
JULIA: Thank you, I try. I try really hard. So, I would love to talk a little bit about the book because obviously, we want people to read it. We're very excited. Can you give people a very quick, like, non-spoilery synopsis of the book? To kind of entice them, go pick it up.
SARAH: Yeah, absolutely. So, A Dark and Starless Forest is about a young girl named Derry, who is magical and who lives in a secluded lake house with her adopted siblings, who are also magic. And they live with their kind of like adoptive father-ish figure, Frank, who has been raising them and teaching them how to use magic. And everything is going fine-ish, until her sister Jane disappears. And then things start to go very, very bad. Very quickly.
JULIA: They sure do. Sure do. I have a couple of questions about the book, I thoroughly enjoyed it, obviously. Otherwise, you know, you know, we won't be talking to you. So, in the book, the character of Frank who acts as their kind of like chaperone/adoptive father, he uses the term alchemy to describe the magic that Derry and her siblings practice. Though, they have a conversation later on about how that title doesn't suit them and they're looking for another name. And that sort of follows a conversation about, like, language used by the siblings to describe their sexuality and their gender. So, did you, like, intend for that to be a parallel of the siblings? Like, being able to explore and find the right labels to suit them best or did you just want to talk a little bit about identity? I'm very curious.
SARAH: I did not entirely intend that parallel, but I really like it now that you've said it. So, in the future, I am going to pretend like I intended it.
AMANDA: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
SARAH: Because that makes me sound very smart. I didn't intend it. Although, I did, like, I felt like it fit because so much of the book tends to involve Frank trying to, like, force them to be who he wants them to be. And it is also about Derry, and everyone else, all of her other siblings kind of being able to go, "Well, actually. Can I just use my own words, the things that make me happy?" That was kind of like a theme I was definitely purposely playing with, and I was also just with the labels they used. And also tried to find a way to make it realistic that they would know these labels, because they have been isolated for so long. A big part of it was just because especially when I started writing it, it's much better now. There's way more books out now than my first time of writing it, but there were not a lot of especially, like, YA books where they would use the words. It would kind of just be vague, and just, like, they wouldn't really say bisexual. They would just kind of, like, wink about it. That's very different now.
AMANDA: Locked eyes.
SARAH: Yes.
AMANDA: Yeah, Like, I locked eyes with someone else in the locker room and then I looked ashamedly away.
SARAH: Yes.
AMANDA: That's bisexual representation from the 90s, at least.
SARAH: Yes. And there were wide conversations, different conversations happening about this in the YA community for years, but when I started writing it that was especially a big thing. It was just like using the actual words, and now the landscape is much, much better. It's much more diverse. Still ages to go. Still, like, loads of ways to go because there's never enough. It's still overwhelmingly white, for one thing. Overwhelmingly straight, but there's more identity out there. There are more books that actually say like, "Yes, this character is asexual. This character is trans. This character is whatever." Which is also like, not to say, the one, the one trick with this is that I also don't want to act like the books that purposefully don't use them are bad, because there are also ways to not use those words. That is very powerful and very purposeful. Man, we, the conversation around representation and identity is so tricky and nuanced.
JULIA: Yes.
SARAH: Like.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: There's a million ways to do this. There's no one right way, but that was the way I wanted to do it, for this book, at least. I wanted to be able to say, "Here's the word so you know, for sure."
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: I am no dancing rabbit, especially because when people are looking at, like, queer representation, especially in books or media in general, they tend to expect it to be shown in a romantic way or a sexual way. And I wasn't going to be doing that. I wasn't going to have a relationship in the book, really. And I, I'm still nervous about this. Like, this is something that I'm, so far people have been great. I am nervous to see the kind of reception in terms of sometimes people read a book with a queer character, but if they're not in a relationship, then they're, like, they're not actually though, right?
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: It's like no. They still are.
AMANDA: And I think for a lot of us, like, the sort of experience of, like, knowing or hinting at what I wanted, without any kind of agency or ability to go after it is so the experience of my queer adolescence.
SARAH: Yes.
AMANDA: So, that is also powerful.
SARAH: Yeah, and like finding terms for me personally, is so powerful. I did not know, like, I'm bisexual. I did not know this until I was 14 when I heard the word bisexual for the first time in my life. I didn't know that was an option.
AMANDA: And you were like, "Oh, that one."
SARAH: I thought you were gay or straight and it was like that was my entire world. And then, I think because of fanfiction.net I learned about bisexuality and I was like, "Holy shit. I can do that?"
AMANDA: Mine was girl.com.
SARAH: Nice. We all have that place.
AMANDA: We do. We do.
JULIA: fanfiction.net saving lives.
SARAH: Exactly.
AMANDA: Truly.
SARAH: And that's true for me with a lot of things. Like, that's true for me also. Just even with, like, like diagnoses Like, I got diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago, finally. And that has been huge for me. There's something about having a word, even if it's an imperfect word, because some people have, like, identity words that others think are outdated or things like that. Like, it is the eternal debate, unnecessary-to-me-debate about bisexual and pansexual, because I'm, like, just, with the one that works for you.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: Do that.
AMANDA: Agreed.
SARAH: There's just something so powerful about having something because it enables you to learn more about it. It's a lot easier to Google ADHD than, "Hey. Why can't I do things? Why is that happening to me?"
JULIA: Why won't my brain let me do the dishes that it's been so many days, and I just cannot work up the energy to do it.
SARAH: Exactly. And similarly, with, with a queer identity. Like, it's a lot easier to find people who can talk to you about it and can say, "Yeah, me too." If you have a word where you can kind of locate them, especially online now that you can google stuff.
JULIA: Absolutely. I was very excited when you mentioned, like, in passing like, "Oh, Jane's ADHD meds might not have, like, you know, gone the whole day. And so she, like, lost a lot of energy." I'm like, same Jane. All the time."
SARAH: All the time. Like, there's a point in the afternoon where I just start yawning. And I'm like, "Yep, there goes the vyvanse."
JULIA: Yeah. If you see me yawn, during this, it's because I'm hitting my end of the day slump, and it has nothing to do with you.
SARAH: I understand completely, I took mine, like, an hour late to try and avoid that during this, but we'll see if it worked.
JULIA: 100%.
AMANDA: That's very thoughtful between that and setting up your cat obstacle course so that they take longer to come bother you. Sarah, you're like, most conscientious guest of the summer.
SARAH: It's because I have anxiety.
JULIA: Mood.
AMANDA: Me as well. This episode is sponsored by Skillshare. They are an online learning community that is offering Spirits listeners a free trial of premium membership because you are a wonderful beautiful complex human being. You were born to create so you can learn, express, and discover what you can make with online classes from Skillshare. I took one recently led by Jonathan Van Ness calls The Ultimate Self-Care Playbook: Discover ways to Nurture Your Centered Self and having ways that Jonathan, somebody who, you know, the internet loves and I love, teach me how to put myself first and make time for myself in my day is really, really useful. And whether you're looking for classes on that, on things like plant care, and crafts, and hobbies, or professional skills like photography, productivity, animation. Skillshare is the spot for you. Go to skillshare.com/spirits where our listeners get a one-month free trial of premium membership. That's one month free at skillshare.com/spirits.
JULIA: Amanda, have you ever tried on a really cute piece of clothing and you're like, "Oh my God, this looks so good on me. I love it so much," but Oh my God. The, like, zipper is too itchy or this button is, like, digging into my skin, or it's just too scratchy. Like, the fabric is too itchy. Amanda, there, there's seriously a problem with clothing, but luckily, I get a lot of my loungewear now from the buttery soft company, Brooklinen.
AMANDA: The buttery soft. What have you been enjoying from them?
JULIA: Oh my God, I have these little pair of shorts and they're so comfy and they got one pocket that's the perfect size for my phone. So, if I'm going, like, you know from the couch to the bathroom or back and forth, and I need to put my phone in my pocket, it's just right there in the back. I don't have to worry about it. And they're so comfortable. They're warm yet awesome because they're shorts. They're cooling. So, it's a perfect time for transition weather clothing, in my opinion. And Brooklinen has been listening to what we all need most and they have responded with this ultra comfy loungewear at a super fair price. It has classic cuts and no zippers for limitless comfort that you can pull off in real life. And so you can just, like, luxuriate in coziness all day long. And there's a reason that Brooklinen has over 75,000 5-star-reviews and counting. So, if you're looking for ways to enhance your comfort, check out Brooklinen's candles as well. They have eye masks and they have accessories that help you properly celebrate your chill. So go on, get comfortable, and get it for less at Brooklinen. Go to brooklinen.com and use the promo code Spirits to get $20 off with a minimum purchase of $100. That's b r o o k l i n e n .com and enter the promo code Spirits for $20 off with a minimum purchase of $100. That's brooklinen.com promo code Spirits. Thanks Brooklinen.
AMANDA: And Julia you and I got a chance to hang out in person a few days ago--
JULIA: We did.
AMANDA: --which I absolutely loved. And there comes a moment in your night where you say, "Hey, I can really go for gyoza," and I say, "I could really go for a slice of vegan pizza." And you know what, we both get to have what we want because you don't have to, you know, compromise on something that everybody feels "meh" about. Sometimes you can get everything that everybody needs via Doordash. This is an app that connects you with the restaurants you love right now and right to your door. They also now have grocery essentials. You can get drinks, snacks, and other household items delivered in under an hour. All I need to do is open the Doordash app, choose what you want from where you want, and your items will be left safely outside your door.
JULIA: So, for a limited time, our listeners can get 25% off and zero delivery fees on their first order of $15 or more when you download the Doordash app and enter the code creepycool. That's 25% off, up to a $10 value and zero delivery fees on your first order when you download the Doordash app in the app store and enter the code creepycool. Don't forget that's code; creepycool. All one word for 25% off your first order with Doordash. Subject to change, terms apply.
AMANDA: Subject to change, terms apply. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: I really appreciate, you're so explicit in your words with the sexuality and the gender representation. And also, like, with race, and it made me think when you started talking about, like, sometimes it is better to be explicit and say the thing. I was recalling the, like, conversations around fandom when they were making the Hunger Games movies. And I remember, like, I didn't read into it when I was reading those books for the first time that Katniss is supposed to be indigenous. She's supposed to be Native American.
SARAH: Yeah.
JULIA: And like people who saw that were like, "Hey, this character is supposed to be this." And everyone else is like, "Wait, what? No, it never said that, like, officially in the book." And it's just so much easier for everyone, I guess when you can explicitly say this character is this--
SARAH: Yeah.
JULIA: --and no one can deny that in creating a movie and a large franchise off of it.
SARAH: No, that's definitely something I think about, like, I mean, I think about when I, when I kind of like explicitly describe race, especially. I think about things like the white default. The way that if you don't say it, people will still go, “Okay, so they're white," or the way where if you say that other people are like Black or Latino or anything, but then you don't say that one character is white. It's kind of like, "Okay, so you're still treating them as like, they're the normal one.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: That was on my mind. And then also, yeah, the way that readers unintentionally or intentionally, will just kind of gloss over things.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
SARAH: Sometimes even when you say it explicitly.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: They still will because, like, with the Hunger Games, like, I don't remember if she ever calls Rue black, but she definitely talks about her being dark skinned, and people were still like, "Now, why is she being played by a black person?
AMANDA: Yep.
SARAH: So, people will still find ways around it but I feel like the more explicit you can be, it's just better for everyone. Both so that people don't have something to hide behind when they want to deny it, but also so that the people who it matters to can be like, "Okay, I'm not just imagining this."
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: It is right here.
JULIA: I'm not just projecting.
AMANDA: I felt that way. Like, I think so much of Twitter did when I saw the cover of the book for the first time and I'm like, Oh, my God, an incredible, fat protagonist. I love her strong arms. I love her shirt. I love her hands. I love her chin, like, she is so beautiful and I know that control over the cover is not always something that authors have a ton of say over but can you tell me a little bit about how that process was like and how you feel about having a character that people know exactly what she looks like?
SARAH: It's a fun thing. It's incredible and actually I was so, so lucky with my, with the cover process. It wasn't, for one thing, it is in my contract that I get, like, not approval but I get to say in it which would only go--
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: --so far but luckily I didn't really need to actually utilize that much of it anyway, because when my editor first emailed me to say, "Hey, we're working on the cover." She was, she right from the start was like, "Can you give me some, like, image references about how fat Derry is so that we can get it right. Like, she winds because she was like, "I know fat can mean a lot of different things. So, we want to make sure that we are getting her body right." Like, that was, they were very proactive about that.
AMANDA: Damn.
SARAH: Which was incredible. I did not expect that I thought that I was kind of worried. I know that I've definitely heard from other authors that there can sometimes be a fight to, like, get that anything. Any sign of, like, body or race representation accurately on a cover, or they'll kind of try to hide it. Like, it'll be like--
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: --a vague distance silhouette, or you just won't really see them.
AMANDA: Her shirt has an empire waist. What do you, what do you mean? Is, is that not what you asked for? And it's like, no.
SARAH: That's actually, that's actually interesting because, like, the original version of the cover had her wearing a T-shirt that covered her arms and that was the one thing where I was, like, "No, we can't.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: We're not going to have her cover her arms.
AMANDA: Totally.
SARAH: Because I feel like people who are fat or have been fat are very aware of this. You've tried very hard especially when you're younger because I, I wrote this in a lot of ways for, like, the fat High School me. You try very hard to cover your body.
AMANDA: Oh, my God. The, the, like, unnecessary modesty card again.
SARAH: Yes.
AMANDA: That, like, just keeps you sweating in the summertime is, like, I, I don't think I've worn a cardigan for 10 years since I, like, started getting tattoos on my arms to make myself show them and be happy about them and proud of them. Shout out to all cardigan wearers. I love you guys too, but there is a particular experience of being, like, "Yeah. I mean, it would just be more flattering to, like, wear a three quarters length cardigan." I'm just like, "Oh God."
SARAH: Exactly. There's a huge difference because, like, I love cardigans, but I love them in fall. And I love them when it's not boiling outside.
AMANDA: Exactly.
SARAH: Or like I do not wear a lot of black or if I do, I wear it with color. But when I was in high school, I wore so much--
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
SARAH: --black that kids thought I was goth. And it was like, "No. It's just that I'm fat. So, I'm, black is slimming. You're supposed to wear black."
AMANDA: Or when we were growing up, there just weren't choices. Like, there wasn't Torrid. You couldn't, like, walk into a store and grab a double x or up anywhere. It's very exciting to see so many stylish plus size and fat, like, influencers on Tiktok and Instagram. I'm just like, "You kids. I'm so happy for you."
SARAH: It's so incredible. It's one of those things where it's like, I wish I had that growing up. I'm so happy they do.
AMANDA: Mmh-hmm.
SARAH: Because yeah, when I was like I think a senior in high school, I learned about Lane Bryant and that was, like, the first plus size store that I could, like, really go to.
AMANDA: Mine was Chico's and I was, like, definitely the youngest by 40 years, but you know what, they do have some colorful tunics.
SARAH: They do. Yeah, no. I still have some clothes that I got from Lane Bryant when I was, like, a senior in high school. Also, you know, all love to Lane Bryant, not exactly my style all the time. Kind of discovering that I could wear color was huge for me because I'm naturally a very colorful person. I really like it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: And there's just a huge difference between, like, wearing black because you're like, I like to wear black. It's like my favorite color versus I'm wearing black because I want to disappear and not in a good way.
AMANDA: Totally. Yeah, I recommend colorful clothing on all body types and cover parts of your body you don't like in tattoos. That's how it's worked for me.
SARAH: Exactly. Exactly, with her arms and, like, it was really important to like, like she has a double chin because, like, even now I still, like, struggle with that sometimes. So, I'm taking selfies and stuff.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: I still notice it and I'll still be like, "Oh, should I, like, angle my head a little differently?" Like, it's a constant battle to get that voice out of your head. I really wanted her to show her arms. I wanted them to be visibly, like, not just like, "Oh yeah, she's like, you know, she's fat, but she has, like, some slender parts." I was like, "No, she needs to be, like, fat. Genuinely."
AMANDA: She doesn't just have an hourglass shape.
SARAH: Exactly.
AMANDA: Like, she, you know, this is what her body looks like and I think that's incredible.
SARAH: Yeah. Every time I look at the cover, I, like, cry a little because it was just so important to me and I was so happy that my publisher and my editor were extremely on board with it. My agent and I actually tried to get her less dressed, like, maybe dressed in vines and stuff. Instead my agent actually sent me, like, there's a beautiful photoshoot that lizzo did where she's like wearing this, like, body suit that's just, like, flowers.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
AMANDA: Yep.
SARAH: The publisher did think that might be a little too racy for YA.
JULIA: Just a little bit.
SARAH: We did, like, make an attempt to see if we could do some sort of modest enough version of that. That was like, we don't want it to be sexual, we just want to show the fatness more than anything, but I'm still so happy with how it ended up. Like, I have had a lot of people and I remember when I first shared the cover I had so many people and young people especially, like, sharing it saying, "Holy shit. She looks like me." And I cried just a lot so I was like, "That's what I want. This is what I, this is what I've done the book for. It's for you, child."
AMANDA: Yeah. My partner Eric saw it on Twitter because he, like, trolls the content caves of the internet for me and, like, brings back only nice things. And he sent me the tweet and he's like, "This is up of your interest." And I'm like, "Yes." Like, looks like a plant tattoo. Yes. Like, fat witch on the cover. Yes, fantasy. Yes, YA. Yes, Sara Hollowell. I'm totally into it.
JULIA: I love that. So, the forest obviously plays a really big part in the story that's in the title, and also like, you know, there's a lot of things going on with that forest. And one of the things that kind of happens after the disappearance of Jane is that sort of whispering voice that's coming from the forest. And I know that's a pretty common trope in both, like, fantasy and in horror, and we've talked on the show a bunch about how, like, the forest definitely can be frightening only because of how strange it can sound in the dark, you know? Even when you know what's out there already. So, was there a particular, like, story or experience that either you had or that inspired this for A Dark and Starless Forest.
SARAH: It's kind of, like, an amalgamation, I guess. I definitely hung out in, like, forests a lot as a kid. I grew up in Indiana. I still live in Indiana.
AMANDA: I see you were a Midwest forest queer.
SARAH: Yes.
JULIA: Aren't we all grown up forest queers at the end of the day?
SARAH: Basically.
AMANDA: I was a suburban forest queer. Yes.
SARAH: The first elementary school I went to was, like, right next to a forest that we would sometimes be able to go into. My best friend in high school lived right up, right up against the forest and we would explore it all the time. We were very, very, we're both just like very queer fairy obsessed children. We spent a lot of time in the forest.
JULIA: Crystals, potions made out of leaves and mud, etc.
SARAH: Exactly.
AMANDA: Yeah. Tag yourself fae, mushrooms, gems, fallen logs.
SARAH: Yeah, no. That--
AMANDA: You can only do one of four.
SARAH: --that whole aesthetic is perfect. I also, my parents are of the opinion with their backyard and front yard. They have a huge backyard. I mean, I guess huge by they-live-in-a-city, in-the-city-standards, but not the city-city, because they live in Columbus, Indiana, which has like 50,000 people. That's where I come from, they are of the opinion that grass is pointless. And so, their yards are all, like, flowers and trees and bamboo actually. And just, like, a lot of really cool stuff. So, the backyard, we always called the jungle because it was just trees and trees and trees, but also bamboo and just, like, cool stuff. And I spent a lot of time in there. I just spent a lot of time hanging out in that backyard. So, forests have always just really captured me. I just find them really beautiful and a little spooky and I'm a horror fan. I have been since I was a kid. My dad gave me the fantasy more than anything, my mom gave me the horror. She's a huge Stephen King fan.
JULIA: Nice.
SARAH: One of my favorite movies as a child was Langoliers and also IT. So, this is who I am.
JULIA: You and I had a wildly different experiences with IT and that's fine.
SARAH: It scared me but I just was fascinated by it. So, I watched it over and over again.
JULIA: Tim Curry's performance of that is incredible. Like, looking at it now as an objective adult, it is very enticing and very frightening, but as an eight-year-old watching IT for the first time. Clowns. No good no more.
SARAH: For some reason, as a kid, the things that scared me the most were, like, The Brave Little Toaster and like The Secret of NIMH.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: Those were horrifying to me, whereas, like, Stephen King movies, I was just, "Yeah. Let's watch another Stephen King movie. I love the 80s." It's like I didn't learn to be scared of the right things until I think I hit puberty mostly. Suddenly, things did scare me. Horror movies did scare me, but yeah so I kind of brought just, like, all those sensibilities into it. And, like, yeah, like you said, like, the whispering kind of force. And a lot of the things that are in it are kind of common tropes. Some of those are just things where it's like, I like that and that's literally the only reason behind it being in there, is that I like it.
JULIA: That's great. That's a good reason to have it there.
SARAH: I think it's spooky. Like, one of my favorite traits that, like, there's, without being too spoiler-y, there's like a person that Derry meets in the forest who initially can only speak by, like, repeating Derry's words back to her, which is 100% taken from the Doctor Who episode Midnight.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: I love that.
SARAH: 100%, that's what that's from because I love that episode. I can't watch it. It stresses me out too much. I find it very scary. So, I wanted to include that because I was like, "That is so scary to me." Like, you have plenty of legends of things that, like, steal voices and will try to lure people with that voice. But to me, it was just, like, the idea of something repeating your own words back at you to your face. There's just something about it that's so spooky.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. It's like the echo personified or the, you know, the inability of the forest to help you personifies.
SARAH: Yes. Exactly. So, yeah, that's kind of where a lot of it came from, is just, I have grown up with forests. I haven't really actually had many of my own, like, spooky experiences other than ones that were made up in my head. I do distinctly remember in sixth grade, I have a distinct memory of being at, like, a camp and we were walking through the woods to, like, another building and it was dark, and I just started sobbing because I was just scared, because it was dark and we were in the woods.
JULIA: The woods is scary at night. That's what I'm saying. Even grown people, like, you know, you hear, like, something walking in the woods and you don't know what it is and you don't want to know what it is.
SARAH: Absolutely not. Like, I, yeah. I still hate being outside at night. I'm not an outdoors-y person anyway, but one of the reasons I can't imagine myself camping is because no, I'm not going to be out of doors in the night time, sometimes it's scary enough to be inside in the night time.
JULIA: It's true.
AMANDA: I'm a hothouse flower. I need my little protective greenhouse.
SARAH: Exactly. I love that we, we live in a world where I can roughly make the temperature what I want depending--
AMANDA: Yes.
SARAH: --on how good my AC or heat feel like behaving in a given day.
AMANDA: Yes, I have my humidifier. I have my scents that I prefer. I have my blankets that I prefer. And you know what, I'm a goddamn adult. I'm going to sleep in that biome as often as possible.
SARAH: That's how I feel. That is exactly how I feel. I love the outdoors, aesthetically. I love it conceptually. I wish I was an outdoors-y person. Never I watched movies where someone's, like, out in the field and, like, sitting in the grass or laying in the grass reading a book. I'm like, "Oh, that looks so good." You actually try it. It's, like, this is itchy and bad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: There's itchy. There is bugs all over me now. Yeah.
AMANDA: Yep.
SARAH: And I hate that. I hate that isn't actually, like, those look so comfy. Like, sitting on, like, a green pillow or something. It's like, no, it's hard. It's uneven. There's no good place to sit. I need a chair.
JULIA: It's a lot of crabgrass. Probably.
AMANDA: A screened porch is really my ideal ,because then you have all the comforts of inside plus a temperature you can't fully control and no bugs.
SARAH: Exactly. No, I completely agree with you.
JULIA: Talking a little bit more about the forest now that we've established not an outdoor kid, one of the characters at one point kind of suggests that the forest might have infected Derry as she's spending more time in it. And this really had me thinking about a conversation that I was having a while ago, about how one of the horror movie tropes that happens a lot, especially in haunted house movies, is like women or the, like, the femme-aligned characters are usually the ones who are more likely to be haunted or feel that kind of, like, demonic or ghostly oppression. I'm curious if that was, like, a conscious decision of you kind of playing into that trope of like, "Oh, the forest, like, is more powerful than us and might be changing us," especially since early on in the book you also mentioned, Frank only trains non-male alchemists in their magic, and I was like, "I'm curious about whether or not that's the same line."
SARAH: It definitely kind of is. Like, one of the things that was, I really wanted to play with in this book was definitely writing a girl who was kind of dealing with that, like, overpowering force. And like, I definitely have some various, like, little themes and metaphors in there of the various things infecting her. And like the pit of the forest, or her own magic, or her anger, but then also not wanting her to be punished for that essentially. Like, I am someone who really struggles personally with letting myself feel anger and letting even, even frightful anger, or letting myself express it. And I kind of did use Derry a little bit, for a little bit of, like, therapy with that. Where it's like, one of the things she really deals with, with is her anger more than anything. The forest infection is kind of, like, parallel to that, basically. I was kind of, like, putting them next to each other and especially feeling about that as a girl, growing up being like, "You're not supposed to be angry. You're not supposed to be violent. You're not supposed to feel those things. You're definitely not supposed to express those things." And you're not supposed to crave power, which was kind of a big part of the forest for her is that it made her feel powerful. And kind of, like, is that good is that bad? And kind of wanting to show both, like, showing the ways where it's like, it can be very good, it can definitely really help you, but if you let it take control over you and completely where you're not thinking anymore, and you're not using it purposefully, it can also really hurt you or people around you was kind of the stuff I was trying to play with there.
JULIA: I think I even wrote down that line. Where is it? I'm going to quote you at you. It's my favorite thing to do to authors, "All magic can be dangerous if it's twisted, and prodded, and pushed the right way, but some magic is dangerous unless you twist it the right way. You have to work at not letting it hurt someone."
SARAH: Dang, that's a good line.
JULIA: Now, that's a good line isn't it?
AMANDA: Who wrote that?
SARAH: Forgot I wrote that.
JULIA: But I loved that. I was like, that definitely aligns with what you just said. So, I wanted to quote you at you.
SARAH: Well, I like, Yeah, no, I mean, that's something I'm kind of fascinated with in terms of both, like, supernatural things in books and in media, and also just in personal life. Like, the ways that I think emotions can be very powerful, it can be very useful. I think anger can be very powerful and very useful. I also think that it can be very toxic and bad, but so can other emotions. Like, it's not just anger. Sadness can do the same thing. In some ways, even, like, joy depending on where the source of it, can do the same thing, or like an obsessive need to seem happy can be toxic in the same way. And it's, like, I as someone who has had to learn how to just be, like, honest about my emotions, instead of trying to, like, make myself as convenient as possible to other people.
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I'm tagged in this photo, and I don't like it.
SARAH: It's still something I struggle with, but that's why I'm in therapy.
AMANDA: Yep.
SARAH: Like, that's something I really, I kind of lived vicariously through my characters in that way. Where it's like, I want them to actually, even if they also struggle with it, I want them to reach that satisfying conclusion, where they are able to both recognize that their emotions or their magic can be used in bad ways and good ways, and being able to just be honest with themselves and like others, in some ways when they can be. It's a little tricky with Derry towards the end, but that gets spoiler-y.
JULIA: We don't want to give too many spoilers away.
SARAH: I like the ending. So.
JULIA: I do too, that kind of leads really nicely into another theme that I saw in the book, which is cycles. Specifically, cycles of violence and abuse. And I know that's a really difficult subject to kind of talk on. So, and I imagine even more difficult to write about but would you mind talking a little bit about why this is such an important theme for A Dark and Starless Forest.
SARAH: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is a theme that keeps coming back in my stories, even when I'm not intending it to. The book I'm working on right now had no intention of having, like, abuse themes, but it came back anyway. A large part of it is because for basically from around the time, I was like, 15, to around 23, all of my relationships were emotionally abusive, and that had a really big impact on me, because it was from a pretty formative age. I am fascinated, I guess, by what this looks like, and about unpacking it and about digging into, like, the nuance of it. And one of my, like, big things is specifically going from the side of someone where it's not as easy as just, "Oh, they've been bad to me, I hate them now." It's so complicated. You can deeply love someone who is actively hurting you, and that's hard. That's really hard. And you can, like, start to think that the way they treat you is just the way you deserve to be treated. And so you kind of start to put it back on yourself or on others and things like that. Like, I kind of like to examine the weird gray areas of abuse dynamics and of how it makes you feel when you are, like, the victim of that or when it's, especially when it's long term.
AMANDA: Mmh-hmm.
SARAH: And that keeps happening in my books, I just keep doing it someday. I'm very interested in it, because there's still so much people who have not been through it, or even people who have been through abuse don't understand about how complicated it is. About what it does to you. About the fact that, like, yeah, like you can love someone who's abusing you or you can miss someone who abused you, that you escaped. Even though you know, they're bad, but there's still a part of you, that's like, "Yeah, but when things were good, like, they made me feel really good." And you can miss that feeling, then that doesn't make what they did okay, but the feeling is real. There are so many complicated feelings that come from it. And I think people don't always understand that if they haven't been through it, or if they just haven't had someone saying, "No, yeah. You're feeling those things. It's normal." Like, that's just kind of normal. It sucks. Sorry.
AMANDA: I think so many journeys in therapy begin with somebody thinking or saying like, "Yeah, I read this book, and six months later I'm, like, thinking about it every day." And so, I imagine that, you know, for the better this will be that for a lot of people.
SARAH: I hope so. Like, it's, it's something that definitely, the abuse that kind of shows up in the book is definitely very strongly based on, like, some of my own experiences. Not specifically because I'm not, like, a magic child but the kind of abuse, like, that kind of just, like, it's that kind of thing that when you have been through it, you know how to recognize it. It is an immediate red flag when you see it, and you're like, "Holy shit, that's bad," but when you're experiencing it, and for the first time, and you don't know how to recognize it, it feels kind of subtle. It feels natural. It feels like it's just someone telling you the truth about yourself, rather than someone trying to make you weaker and more vulnerable and more dependent on them. Yeah, that was just something that was really important to me to explore because it was a really big part of my teenage experience that I never really got to, like, talk about either a lot, because I was definitely in that area of, like, when I tried to talk about it with, like, my friends, they were like, "That seems very bad, you should leave this relationship." But I was like, "No, you don't get it. Like, you don't understand. It's still good." And so I'd make, I would isolate myself. And so, I kind of missed out on really getting to, like, talk about it at that time. And I tend to write books for my high school self similarly to how I, like, wrote it for fat high school Sarah to be like, "Look, you can have an adventure. You're allowed to be the protagonist." I also wrote it to be like, "Hey, any of this seem familiar and you see how it's bad here?" Yeah, that's kind of my intent.
AMANDA: That makes complete sense, and I know that writing for your previous self or trying to evoke a feeling that you had, or wish you had, or create a space that you wish had existed for you. That's just, that's incredible. You know, in some ways, the more specific it is to your own experience, the more other people have a foothold in, to be like, "Wow. This can also appeal to me in some weird way even though I am not, you know, a magical/isolated girl, you know, learning in the forest about how to be." What other elements of your teenagehood, or hometown, or a spooky jungle backyard did you manage to bring into this book?
SARAH: It's again, that thing where I am writing to, like, my teenage self, and I am in love with specifically, the aesthetics, and sounds, and feels, of, like, an Indiana summer. This is another one of those things where, like, similar to how I was kind of always told, not necessarily directly, but through the media that I read, that as a fat girl, I could not have magical adventures. There was also that definite feeling of, like, "Well, nothing good comes from Indiana." Like, that's just how it feels. And both then and now, like, the books I read that did take place in Indiana generally weren't, like, magical. Not that they don't exist, just that, like, most of them seems to be about farming or were like literary stuff I wasn't really interested in, especially as a kid that I am, like, more interested in now. One of my very good friends wrote, like, a really incredible poem about dirt. Like, dirt in Indiana that's just really beautiful. There's very good stuff to write about Indiana but I always kind of felt like there was nothing good to come out of it, and I hated that. I was surrounded by people who just wanted to get out of Indiana, and I really loved Indiana. Like, I really do still. That's why I still live here and still plan to live here. It's also, like, an attitude that has just continued to today, like, being a, like, leftist person in a red state is terrible in so many ways. One big, one being that you don't know, especially if you're a marginalized person, which of your neighbors may have been voting against your human rights.
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: Mmh-hmm.
SARAH: Also, because the people in Blue States, being the left, people don't treat you very well. They treat you like you are someone who can be sacrificed and, like, it is your own fault. In fact, if you are still in that state, when whatever happens, like, the way people always talked about cutting off Florida and stuff. It's like, there's a lot of good people in Florida actually.
JULIA: Yeah.
SARAH: Or in Texas who are just like.
AMANDA: It's almost like that attitude doesn't make things better.
SARAH: Almost.
AMANDA: I would, I would venture to say.
SARAH: Yes, exactly.
JULIA: Not very welcoming.
SARAH: And it's like, I never want to deny that there are, like, bad parts of Indiana, Like, obviously there are. I am from the same hometown as Mike Pence. So, I know, but at the same time, Mike Pence is from the same hometown as me, and I think I'm pretty cool. So, it's like, Columbus--
AMANDA: There you go.
SARAH: Columbus didn't just produce him. It produced, like, me and my family and, like, a lot of really amazing, empathetic, cool people. But people act as if states like Indiana just have nothing to offer and there's nothing good here. And that always makes me really sad. So, like, one of the things I tried to do with this book and tried to do with my other stories, I think nothing I've had that's been published has not had this element is I tried to evoke the feeling of specifically being like a kid or a teenager at, like, dusk in Indiana in the summer. In the cornfields, in the forests, with, like, cicadas and lightning bugs and just, like, all of those like little things. If they were closer to town, there would probably be fireworks every night because Indiana is absolutely one of those states where the fireworks start in, like, May and just keep going. My hometown radio station has Christmas fireworks. Like, they just kind of go forever.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: That's incredible.
SARAH: But like actually, like, there's a specific mention of cicadas multiple times in the book and my copier of it was like I think these are supposed to be katydids because cicadas don't come out at night. And I was like, "Okay, what?" Because I, like, my whole life it had been cicadas.
JULIA: They've always been cicadas though.
SARAH: Yes. So, I did a bunch of googling and I did a bunch of asking other people from Indiana. And I was like, "Listen, technically, you might be right. They may probably be katydids but colloquially, whatever they are, they're cicadas. So, I'm going to call them cicadas."
JULIA: So, it's such a vibe.
SARAH: To me that's, like, such an intrinsic part of, like, that in many states but for me in Indiana, Like, that Indiana summers that sound and, like, the heat and humidity. And that's just, like, something I want to capture is both like the magic of it, but also the spookiness of it. Also that feeling of, like, there is maybe something in the forest maybe, or in the corn or whatever. I had just staffed a team writing workshop and one of the really amazing kids, I read the first chapter of my current work in progress to them, and they loved it, which was very gratifying for me, but one of the kids who's completely brilliant, and I have no idea if they got this from somewhere else, but they said it. So, I'm going to attribute it to them where they talked about how like, in New England, where they're from, the horror is, like, "There's someone right in front of you, and it's scary, and you have to get away." And in the Midwest it's, "There's no one here and it's scary, and you have to get away." And that is kind of how it feels. It's like that feeling of, like, you don't know what's out past the bonfire. You don't know what might be lurking, like, in the hayride or anything like that, and that's kind of what I tried to capture.
JULIA: I think you succeeded. Having finished the book, definitely succeeded in that.
SARAH: Good because that's, like, what I really want to do. Like, I really want to be able to, like, show Indiana has some cool stuff, some cool magic, It's a nice place to grow up, despite all of the other very bad things that are also here. I just like those parts of my childhood that are so, like, precious to me that I keep trying to recreate them, I guess.
AMANDA: There's a lot worse reasons to write a book.
SARAH: That's kind of how I feel. I'm like, sometimes I feel like I should have, I don't know, like, deeper, cooler, more philosophical reasons to write a book. But I'm like, mostly I just want to write a book that I think my teenage self would like, and that makes me happy.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: And a while ago, I decided that's fine, that seems like a good reason actually. This is who I am as a person.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: There is no limit on the number of books we can fit in the world.
SARAH: Exactly.
JULIA: That's true.
SARAH: So, it works out.
JULIA: And you have the capability of writing a book, which is more of a reason to write a book.
SARAH: Yes. Hopefully, I will write more books.
JULIA: Yes, we hope so too.
SARAH: I am making an attempt.
AMANDA: Well, we'll have you back on to talk about them. That's a promise.
SARAH: I would love to be here. The one I'm working on right now has not been bought yet, but if it is, I will 100% love to talk about it because I am obsessed with it.
JULIA: Yay.
AMANDA: Yay.
SARAH: It's so fun. It's like a corn-maze-horror-thing that I have compared to. I like to, like, do that comp title thing except I do it with, like, really weird obscure things usually. So, like this one, the inspiration is one of my favorite video games, The Return of the Obra Dinn.
AMANDA: Yeah.
SARAH: And a classic, classic sci-fi horror movie cube to hypercube? But in a corn maze.
JULIA: Incredible. Truly incredible.
AMANDA: I love that so much.
SARAH: And it's horror so I'm like, I'm, I'm obsessed, I, I really hope someone buys it because I want to shove it at the whole world I'm in love with it.
JULIA: I want to read it so I hope someone buys it. Incredible.
AMANDA: Oh, Sarah. We could talk to you forever but sadly, the, the summer's night is drawing to a close. So, can you please let our fabulous conspirators know where they can find you and follow your work online?
SARAH: Absolutely. My website sarahhollowell.com, has all of the information about my other work that you can read. If you want to actually find where I am live, it is almost always on twitter @sarahhollowell. I am there way too much. In fact, some might say and you will get to know me perhaps too well.
AMANDA: But you do contribute cat photos to the discourse so I always, if I'm feeling bad I just look at your timeline and Blair Braverman and I'm like, life is better.
JULIA: You said it.
SARAH: I love being in the same sense as Blair Braverman, that makes me extremely happy.
AMANDA: You got it.
SARAH: I do try to post a lot of cat photos because I'm obsessed with my cats and other people are too. So, that's, that's, that's like what Twitter is for, probably. It's just it happens. It's just like, he's the kitten we rescued. He's perfect.
JULIA: Wonderful.
AMANDA: Rudy.
SARAH: I am also on Instagram, @smhollowell. The person who has the Sarah Hollowell handle messaged me once and they're just like, Hey, I thought, like, you're also Sarah Hollowell and I was like, "Yes."
AMANDA: Can I have your username?
JULIA: Give me your name.
SARAH: And I have, I have the Sarah Hollowell handle, like, everywhere but here and I was trying to think, like, "Can I bribe this person?"
JULIA: Can we make a deal?
SARAH: They seem like a nice normal regular person. So, I didn't and I just, I don't have money. So.
JULIA: Fair enough.
AMANDA: Fair.
SARAH: So on Instagram, smhollowell. I do not post there very often. I want to try to but when I do, it's usually just, "Look at this kitten," or "I look cute today," because that's usually what happens. Twitter is a much more reliable place to find me and that is also where I will always have, like, updates about stuff that I've written and books that are happening.
AMANDA: Fabulous.
JULIA: And if you are listening to this episode, when it comes out, your book is available. Go buy it.
SARAH: Buy it. Especially buy it, I mean buy it from anywhere. People always ask me where's the best place to buy it from that benefits you. And buy it from anywhere. Seriously, it's fine. And you can get an audio book, there's going to be an audio book, which I'm extremely excited about. I do recommend buying it from an indie if you have a local independent bookstore you love. Always recommend that but just buy my book so I can write more books.
JULIA: We'll include a link to the bookshop.org link so that people can get it at their local indie bookstore.
SARAH: Hell yeah.
AMANDA: Well, thank you again Sarah. And everybody, remember.
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind the scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more, like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcribed by: John Matthew Sarong
Edited by: Krizia Marie Casil