Episode 60: Tarot (with Jolie Kerr)
/Spread out the deck and think about your intentions. You flip a card. Jokes ensue. We’re joined this week by cleanliness expert and Tarot lover, Jolie Kerr, who navigates us through the basics of Tarot, the history of the cards, and some Church Intrigue. Meanwhile, we joke about the supernatural skill of playing Bridge and Mahjong, the cards talking shit about your friends, and how the Rosetta Stones solved all problems.
Guest
Jolie Kerr can be found on Twitter @joliekerr. Listen to Ask a Clean Person on Acast, Apple Podcasts, or any other podcast app. Check out her amazing collection of tarot decks here!
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About Us
- hosts: @JuliaSchifini, @ImEricSchneider, @shessomickey
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 60: Tarot with Jolie Kerr.
JS: Oh, yeah. You, you picked a really good guest this episode.
AM: I must say friend of the show, Eric Silver of Join the Party Pod picked a really good guest.
JS: Oh, dang, good job, Eric.
AM: Yeah. I think he recommended Jolie. And I was like, “Wait. That's a person not from mythology internet. That would actually be really good.”
JS: Mhmm.
AM: I've been reading Jolie on the internet for the longest time. And, back from the toast days and even before a hairpin kind of network, which sadly is actually shutting down. They just announced that yesterday.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I just love Jolie so much. She is well known on the internet for her column and, now, podcast, Ask a Clean Person.
JS: Yeah. You, you geeked out real hard about that.
AM: So good. Like, I google Ask a Clean Person and then like a cleaning problem probably once every two weeks. She's really good.
JS: I trust you. And she was a great guest too.
AM: She was. Do you know who else are great, Julia?
JS: More patrons.
AM: Our newest patrons. Welcome to the party; Sara, Rory, Jamilyn, Anchoria, Julia and Nathaniel. Another Julia.
JS: I know. Well, I'm just collecting the Julias at this point.
AM: You are. You are.
JS: They’re all mine now.
AM: I collect queer librarians. You collect other Julia's with flower middle names?
JS: Yes.
AM: And we'll take over the world.
JS: Yeah. That seems fair.
AM: Other folks that can take over the world – I'm getting better at the segues.
JS: You are.
AM: Our supporting producer level patrons. Thank you so much for your continued support. Neal, Chandra, Philip, Julie, Sara, Kristina, Josh, Eeyore, Ryan, Shelby, Lin, Mercedes, Sandra, Robert, Lindsey, Phil, Catherine and Debra.
JS: You see the little dance I do whenever you list them? Because it's always in the same order. So, I'm just like pew, pe, dew, pe dew, pe dew, pew pe dew, pew dew.
AM: I know. I thought about changing up the order, but I just liked it so much.
JS: No. It works so well. Yeah.
AM: I'm getting used to saying it this way. I know. I know. And thank you also to our legend level patrons; LeAnn, Ashley, Shannon, Cammie, Cassie and AshleyMarie.
JS: Yeah. The cards never talk shit about y'all.
AM: Never.
JS: Never.
AM: Never at all. And, Jules, what were we drinking this episode?
JS: Umm.
AM: I think I had Rosie. Is that right? We record couple weeks ago.
JS: No. We were doing – we both had some nice ciders that you picked up from the – like fancy bodega, right?
AM: Oh, yes. Yeah. Weirdly, my bodega gets like craft ciders. Small batch, local craft cider.
JS: It's nice.
AM: And it's really good.
JS: Yeah. Because we weren't, you know, leading the episode for once, we could just kind of sit back and crack open those ciders and have a good time.
AM: Yeah. It was really nice.
JS: It was.
AM: We would love to thank our sponsor this week Tab for a Cause. So, this is an application that you install in your web browser. And, when you open up a new tab, it shows you a beautiful picture. And it raises money for charity by showing you an ad.
JS: What more could you want?
AM: I don't know. They show the weather. They show the time. It's like useful information.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, also, you raise money for charity.
JS: Oh, yeah.
AM: And you can let them know that you came from this podcast if you go to tabforacause.com/spirits. We got 86 installs last time.
JS: Wow.
AM: I asked the team. And they're going to keep me updated as to the amount of money that we raised for charity over time.
JS: Awesome.
AM: So, join Team Spirits. Install Tab for a Cause at tabforacause.com/spirits.
JS: Do it up. Anyone who has been listening to the podcast for a couple weeks now knows that we were at PodCon a month ago. I miss it so much.
AM: I know. Someone on Twitter, who, who tweeted us this recently – their Twitter name is like their name still at PodCon. Yes. No, really like I miss it. You know --
JS: Like Danielle Shemaiah --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- from ARS Paradoxica, who is amazing.
AM: One, they’re good.
JS: Super human being.
AM: Love you, Danielle. I wanted to say Danny in my head, but I wasn't sure.
JS: Yeah. You’re right.
AM: But here we go.
JS: But, yeah, we actually made our panel from PodCon – our panel on monetization, community building, and social media available on our blog. So, you can go to spiritspodcast.com/blog and listen to us talk about, you know, y'all and how you're great.
AM: Yes. And we give real helpful information for those of you who have podcasts or, honestly, who are running any kind of Indie project on the internet. There are slides. There's a handout. There are notes from the session. I'm a big, big nerd. So, I tried to make it really comprehensive. And our patrons actually have that audio in their RSS feed for their special patron-only stuff. So, that is at spiritspodcast.com/blog. You can see that. And you can see our Podcasting 101 workshop. All the good stuff right on there for you.
JS: Next, we want to remind you guys that we would love your Spaghetti Warehouse voicemails.
AM: Listen, guys, this is the most specific thing anyone has ever asked for on a podcast. If you have been to a Spaghetti Warehouse, please open up on your phone the voice memo app, talk in it for a minute or so about your visit to Spaghetti Warehouse. Was it creepy? Was it not? What did you like? What did you eat? And how was that Spumoni ice cream? And please send it to us. Email it to us at spiritspodcast@gmail.com.
JS: Shout out to our listener, Elaine Margot, who is both in our Facebook group. And --
AM: Yes.
JS: --tweeted at us a live – like a live tweet of their visit to Spaghetti Warehouse.
AM: Yeah. They went to Spaghetti Warehouse. They, like, waited an hour for a table. They sat in the trolley. Guys, they sat on the trolley.
JS: They sat next to the trolley, but --
AM: They sat in the front of the trolley.
JS: No, they – yeah. It showed the front of the trolley because they’re next to it. .
AM: Oh, all right. Well, they sat just adjacent to the trolley.
JS: They also said the most terrifying recording of a restaurant that I've ever heard in my entire life.
AM: It's really good. It's a multimedia visit.
JS: It sounds like a demon was sitting right next to them the entire time. And it's horrifying. And I love it. So, we want that quality Spaghetti Warehouse nonsense. Please send it to us.
AM: Yeah. We really need it. We are doing something. That's all I can say. Please in the next week --
JS: We need it.
AM: -- before the end of January, if you're listening to this in the present, in 2018, send us your Spaghetti Warehouse voicemail. Frankly, even if it's after January 2018. I kind of want to hear your recollection of the Spaghetti Warehouse.
JS: But, like, it's going to be good. And you might hear your voice on Spirits.
AM: You're gonna hear your voice on Spirits. Come on. You can do it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I believe in you. All right, Jules. I think that's it, right?
JS: That's it.
AM: All right, y'all. Well, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 60: Tarot with Jolie Kerr.
Intro Music
AM: We're so excited today to be joined by Jolie Kerr, who is the host of Ask a Clean Person, one of my favorite podcasts of all time. I love it so much. And the author of a very funny book about cleaning called My Boyfriend Barfed in My Handbag . . . and Other Things You Can't Ask Martha, which I don't know if you guys know, but I love cleaning. And, so, I have been a big fan of her writing for a long time.
JK: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. That's so nice.
AM: And we're really excited to be talking with you today about something that I don't think either Julia or I know very much about, right, Jules?
JS: Mhmm. I know a little bit of history about it, but we’ll go like I'm completely blind on this topic.
AM: You'll, you'll try on my shoes for a second
JS: I'll pull an Amanda. It's fine.
AM: Nice. Umm. So, Jolie, tell us all about tarot?
JK: All about tarot, either – you know, there's so much to know about tarot. And I will say I'm not a tarot historian. I did a – I did a tiny research in preparation for the show.
AM: You’re already head and shoulders above how prepared I ever am for a recording. So, I think that would be good.
JK: Because I want – you know, I wanted to be able to talk a little bit about the history of it, but I'm not a tarot historian. And the, the history of the tarot, like much of history, is a little murky.
JS: Mhmm.
AM: Yeah.
JK: So, there are things that, that people talk about when they talk about the history of tarot isn't necessarily entirely accurate. And I think, you know, compounding just like the murkiness of history anyway, it’s a fact that tarot is associated with the occults. And there have historically been a lot of forces that maybe want to suppress the tarot and occult topics. And those forces tend to be the ones writing the history. So, there's all – there are all kinds of sort of fun and interesting layers to the history of tarot. And I think, also, probably the biggest thing that I tell people, you know, in, in modern day when I talk about tarot and I do readings for friends or if I invite friends to come for readings with me, with professionals, is that it's not fortune telling. It's not – it's not going to predict the future.
JS: Mhmm.
JK: It's a – it's a medium to crystallize circumstances that you may be experiencing, things that you may have experienced in the past – in the past. And think about the choices you have going forward. And, for me, I find that my practice just lends me a lot of clarity in my life.
AM: Sure.
JK: And, also, it's kind of fun and interesting. And the cards themselves are very interesting.
JS: Mhmm.
JK: And iconography that's used and all that stuff. So, that's kind of my, my general spiel about tarot. I did a – you, guys – y’all, since you're Ask a Clean Person people, you'll appreciate this thing. I did a reading right before we started recording that was a cleaning spread.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Nice.
JK: And it was – and it was very interesting and edifying for me to do that. I'm, like, in a phase right now where my, my readings have been telling me and my, my horoscope has been telling me to – that, that I'm in a period where I need to be sort of like energetically and spiritually cleansing and cleaning things.
AM: Yeah.
JK: And, and some, some of the things have been very specific. Like, clean out your closet or we reorganize your home. And I'm like, “You, guys, I – do you know who you're talking to? I – literally, there's nothing left to clean in this home.”
AM: I'm on it.
JK: Right. So, I was like, “Okay. I, I guess I just focus on the more spiritual aspects of the – of the cleansing that needs to happen.” So, I did this spread, and it was very interesting.
JS: Nice.
AM: So, what does this spread look like? What is your process?
JK: Well, I use all different spreads. So, the one that I did that was the cleaning spread was two center cards; one up right and one over crossing it. That represents where the querent is now. So, in, in tarot, we use the term querent. That basically means the person who was asking the questions of the tarot. So, when I do my own readings, I'm the querent and the reader.
AM: Right.
JK: When I go to a reader, the reader is the reader and I'm the querent. So, those are the center cards. And then, to the – to the left and below the center cards in the three and four position was – and it’s, it's kind of a cheeky little spread, which I love. It was two cards to represent all that junk under the bed and how to tackle it.
AM: Whoa.
JS: I love that.
JK: And then which is also hilarious since there are literally only two things under my bed. I don't keep junk under my bed.
AM: You’re like, “Come on.”
JK: Because I’m me.
AM: Yes.
JK: And then there is an arc of three cards the, the 5, 6, 7 position above the two center cards that represent redecoration or fresh ideas.
AM: Mhmm. Nice.
JK: And then one card on the right below the two center cards that is – it is definitely time to check this thing out. And, actually, that, that card I was so surprised. I thought – there are – there are cards that come up in my readings sort of over and over again and it tends to end up representing various specific people in my life. And I really thought that the number eight position was going to be the Page of Cups, which is a card that represents a very specific person in my life. And it wasn't actually. It was the Three of Cups, which represents another very specific person.
AM: What’s it?
JK: From my past who’s sort of a little bit lingering around. And I was so surprised. Like, oh, my god. Oh, that Three of Cups. Holy cow. I gotta – oh, wow, I gotta deal with that thing.
AM: Wow.
JK: But I sort of thought I – I thought I'd already dealt with. But, obviously, like, there's still one last thing to, to close that chapter out. So, I was like, “All right. I get it. I see it all. Clarity. I get it.”
JS: I, I like that idea of the cards talking shit about people in your life. That’s awesome.
AM: Yeah. They're like happy.
JK: Oh, yeah. They definitely do. I mean they talk shit about me, too.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It’s just how it is.
JK: I'll, I’ll say that the two cards that I got for where I am right now were, like, one was the three of ones, which is a – it's a man who's looking out on the horizon. And he's, he's carrying two – so, the ones kind of look like staffs. Like wooden staffs. So, he's got two in front of him. And then he's got one on his back. And that's a very good card. It means – it, it basically represents your lane plans for the future. You're looking out onto the horizon. And the things that you're doing and the plans that you're laying are the right ones. And that it's good for you to be looking forward. But the card that I had crossing that was the Ten of Swords, which is literally a person lying on the ground with 10 swords in his back.
JS: Do you know that?
JK: Yeah.
AM: Yikes.
JK: But I was like, “Damn you, Ten of Swords. We meet again.” And, and, you know, the thing is, is that really, as frustrating as it is to see that card, that really is exactly where I am. I am laying plans. And I am in a period where, unfortunately, you know, I've suffered a number of, of betrayals. And I'm, I'm processing that, but I'm processing that by looking towards the future and just figuring out what comes next.
AM: Yeah.
JK: So, it rang true for where I am, but it also was kind of like, “Ugh, I wish I wasn't where I am.”
AM: And, so, is there a temptation to kind of like read into those cards the meaning you're looking for? Like, at least for me, it will be so tempting to be like, “Yes, my path is correct. And I don't have to challenge anything. And every choice I’ve made is correct, you know.” So, how do you – how do you kind of face – I don't know – like an unwanted truth? Or, are none of the truth unwanted?
JK: Yeah. I mean I definitely think that this is – this has been true in, in my own life. And it's I think true of anyone who does, does tarot readings for other people or for themselves that, yeah, it's very easy if you – if you wanna delude yourself into, into seeing something and getting the meaning you want out of it instead of the meaning you need out of it. Of course, that's a – that's a risk that you take. And it's a challenge. But, also, what's the point in doing the tarot – in, in working with the tarot if you're not gonna work with the tarot? What's, what's the point in using the tarot for clarity if you're gonna continue to see things through the lens that you choose to and not get clarity out of them? So, you're really cheating yourself if you do that. And, of course, you can. And, you know, that's, that's – it's one – it's one good reason to go to a reader --
AM: Yeah.
JK: -- and not do your own readings, especially – you know, I find, when, when there are subjects for me that, you know, I really know I want a specific outcome, instead of reading for myself, I'll go to a reader.
AM: Right.
JK: Because then it's a neutral party who's gonna keep me – keep me honest. And I had – I had that happen maybe about a month ago, I went to an amazing, amazing woman here in New York. And she was just like she was so life changing. She was – she was hard on me. I mean she, she just – she was not gonna let me get away with twisting what the cards had to say. And it was good, and I appreciated that. But, like, if I had been doing that reading on my own, oh, yeah, I would have told myself a ton of lies.
AM: I mean we do this all the time.
JS: It --
JK: So, which is why I did it.
JS: It, it vaguely reminds me of a spiritual therapist.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Someone that you can bounce your ideas off of. And the fact that you can't get away with twisting it to be like, “Well, you know, my relationship with this person, it's fine. It's fine. It's okay. It's not – it's not that toxic.”
AM: Right.
JS: And then someone like your therapist or your best friend comes and is like, “Listen, it’s bad. You gotta accept that it's bad and either move on or do something that's going to change the situation that you're in.”
AM: Yeah. I was thinking of a personal trainer, who, you know --
JS: That's a good one too.
AM: -- you're there and you're showing up.
JS: [Inaudible 15:20].
AM: Yeah. I can tell myself that I totally did 10 actual pullups. I've never done 10 pullups in my life.
JS: Uh-uh.
AM: Done 10 actual sit ups maybe. And they're like, “Umm, actually, you know, your feet totally left the ground or your shoulders weren't right.” And they're just there to do – to help you do what you need to do, but maybe you couldn't make yourself do on your own.
JS: I like that.
JK: Yeah. I think I love both of those comparisons, actually. I think that, that's exactly it. And I – and I think it probably goes back to a lot of what I was saying about, like, it's not fortunetelling. Its guidance. Just the way a therapist would guide you, but isn't there to make your decisions for you. And just like a personal trainer is there to guide you, but you still --
AM: Right.
JK: -- have to do the work.
AM: Yeah.
JK: And definitely. I mean, look, I – like, I mean I'm a crier. And I, I cry --
AM: Me too. Same.
JK: -- at everything. But I, I literally cried every single tarot reading I won't get. Like – and I’ll – and I'll walk in, and I'll be like, “This is – this is the one. I'm not gonna cry there. I'm in such a good place.” Ten minutes ago, I’m like, “Wooh!” Like --
AM: Yeah.
JK: Yeah. It’s, like, a total luck. And it – and it really is like therapy. And, you know, the thing is sometimes you get readers who you don't connect with. Umm. You know, whatever – the reading itself isn't really – isn't really hitting you in the right places. I had – I had one a couple months ago where, like the reader, he was just – he was very young. And he I don't think he was ready to be doing --
AM: Yeah.
JK: -- the work that he was doing. And, you know, I wasn't that moved by the things he was telling me. I tear – I teared up a tiny bit.
JS: That you can tell.
JK: But, but like not like – not like my usual. But, but this other woman who I just went to last month – I mean I was – I was just a deluge of tears. Like, I was just a total wreck by the end of it. And, you know, I kept apologizing. She was like, “Do not apologize. First of all this was – this was really intense. Like, you've been going through something intense, and I can see it here. And I can see it as I'm talking to you. And you have – you have work ahead of you. And it's okay to cry. It's okay to work through a lot of that here. That's part of what the, the work I do as a spiritual reader is.”
AM: Yeah.
JK: So, I mean I would – I would encourage everyone I know. Some people are kind of scared of the tarot, And I – and I understand that. And no one should do anything that they're uncomfortable with. But, like, going and getting a tarot card reading can really be life changing.
JS: Yes..
AM: Yeah, right. How did you actually get started doing it?
JK: So, I grew up in Boston. And my mom, when I – starting when I was like maybe 10-ish or so, my mom would take me up to Salem every year during Halloween. And, in Salem, they have – they have what they call a Psychic Fair in halloween – during halloween time. And they have, like, lots of other stuff at Halloween time. Salem is amazing at Halloween, obviously. And, so, my mom would take me up to Salem to the Psychic Fair. And I could, like, pick out whatever. I could have, like, one service. I could pick out whatever I wanted; a crystal ball or palm reading or, you know, anything I wanted. And I always ended up gravitating towards tarot. And then --
AM: Yeah.
JK: -- when I was a little bit earlier older, like, maybe, you know, middle school when kind of, you know, girls tend to get into that – the kind of, like, mystique occult type stuff. And I got a deck of tarot cards. I actually still have it. It's my original deck.
JS: Awww.
JK: And I know I actually – like, before I did this, I pulled out all of my decks, because I was like, “I don't even know how many I have.” I have six it turns out.
JS: Yeah. I was gonna ask what the grand total was.
AM: We would love a photo if you can.
JK: I did take a photo for you, actually. I laid – I laid them all out so you could see them all.
JS: [Inaudible 18:54].
JK: Four of them are, are, are series decks. And two – one is a novelty deck called – this is very on brand for me. It’s called Housewives tarot.
AM: Yes.
JK: And it's – you know, it's a novelty. I wouldn't – I wouldn't really do readings with it. It's very cute, but I wouldn't really do readings with it. I would do, like, fun readings maybe for friends. And then I have another one that I just got.
AM: Yeah.
JK: It’s not a tarot deck, but it's similar. It’s called Halloween Oracle.
AM: Ooh.
JK: And it's, it's more akin to – I don't know if you guys have ever seen or heard of angel cards, but it's more akin to angel cards.
JS: I’ve – I have a vague understanding of it. Yeah.
JK: So, I'll send you guys the picture of all – of all the decks laid out.
JS: Heck, yeah.
JK: Because they're neat, and I love them. And I like – I try to not go overboard with buying decks, because you can get really, really carried away. But there are some really beautiful ones out there.
JS: There definitely are.
AM: Yeah, I see them on --
JS: I have the – I have the wild unknown deck at my house.
AM: Ooh.
JS: My fiance, he makes me, like, put it in the other room, because he's very uncomfortable with the concept.
JK: Really?
JS: He grew up, like, fairly Catholic.
JK: I was just gonna ask, “Is he Catholic?”
JS: He is Catholic, but he also grew up with his dad having, like, kind of medium-esque abilities.
JK: Ooh.
JS: And, when he passed away a couple years ago, Jake kind of confided in me. He's like, “Listen, I think I inherited this idea from my dad.” So, he's kind of, like, either – he's kind of wrestling with this idea of, “Do I accept this as my, you know, own practice? Or do I just kind of let it go?” And, so, he just kind of asked me to put the tarot away from him whenever possible. So --
JK: Whoa.
AM: Yeah, right. It's, like, Daredevil putting his suit in the trunk and, like, not – you know, pointedly, just like not thinking about it.
JS: Yeah, but my tarot cards instead.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JK: Interesting. I mean that makes – it makes total sense to me. And I – it's interesting that he has such a response to a physical and fairly innocuous thing. And, you know, I hope that, in time, he gets a little more comfortable with his, his own – it sounds like his own abilities that maybe he doesn't – isn't quite ready to deal with just yet. But I hope that he does --
JS: [Inaudible 21:04].
JK: -- come to a point where he can embrace it, because it really is very powerful.
JS: It is. Iit definitely is. He's told me a lot of stuff that I was like, “Oh, oh, okay.” So, I hope that he comes to terms with it at some point.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But he's still working on what he's working on.
AM: So, forgive me. This is a little bit – I don't know – naive to ask, but how much – when you're kind of laying out a deck and doing a reading, like, how much of the order of the cards is, you know, fate or predetermined or, like, based on the person that you're doing it for? Or is it all just kind of they're gonna come up and we're gonna read into the meanings, you know, that are in front of us however we can?
JK: Well, I think – so, the thing is about the, the way that you pull cards for a reading is that you – you know, you shuffle the deck, and you think about your, your query for the particular reading. The idea is to focus on, you know, what it is that you're looking to get out of the cards and for this particular reading. And then, you know, every – every reader has like a different – a slightly different way of doing it. I fan the cards out. And then I pull the cards sort of based on where my instinct is telling me to pull cards from. So, it seems random, but, but the idea is that there's nothing that's random. You know, you pull cards in the order of the spread that you're doing. And you lay them out according to the positions that the particular spread calls for. And then you – and then you read based on the position of the card. So, you know, when I was talking to you about the spread that I did today, there – you know, there are two center cards. Those are the first that you pull. And you place them in a – in a – in a cross with one crossing the – facing upward with one crossing the other. And those two cards – those are positions one and two. And, so, those represent where the querent is now. AM: Mhmm.
JK: So, the card position is very important. And then there's interplay between the cards in terms of – you know, again, to use the example of the – of the spread I did today, the card – card one was the very positive card that, you know, I'm looking forward and then plans. And then card two crossing it is but you're also feeling the effects of, of betrayal right now.
AM: Yes.
JK: And that's kind of overlaying the plans that, that you're making. And, frankly, that's a good – that's a good thing. I would prefer that position to the other position. To having those two things reversed, because, ultimately, the number one card means you're doing the right things. And you're, you're staying positive and looking forward even though you're suffering under the weight of these 10 swords that are literally in your back. So, definitely the placement and the interface between the two cards is very important or between all the cards in the spread is important.
AM: That's awesome.
JS: Yeah. That's so interesting. I like – I like the idea that one, one explains the other basically.
AM: Right.
JS: And it's, it’s a really important aspect of the tarot reading, I guess.
Midroll Music
AM: We are sponsored this week by Tab for a Cause, which is a browser extension that, when you open up a new tab, it shows you a little ad, a beautiful photo of, like, a lake or a mountain or something really classy. And the revenue from that ad raises money for charity.
JS: Yeah. You can just keep doing your thing on the internet. And you raise money for a good cause. It's basically just using the internet to raise money for – to help other people. What is – why wouldn't you do that?
AM: I know. It's like when you see ads, like, on the side of a Halal cart or something in New York City.
JS: Okay.
AM: Or you see an ad like on the top of the like – a basketball blackboard.
JS: This is really specific. Go ahead.
AM: I know. But I was at a Knicks game recently. It's very fun. And I noticed that, on the camera that goes down, to shoot, like, the overhead shot of the basket --
JS: Mhmm.
AM: -- the little, like, ledge – the little top of the backboard had an ad on it. Brought to you by McDonald's. Squarespace. And I was like --
JS: Oh, really?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Holy shit.
AM: And I was like, “Hot damn, Squarespace. Like, A, that's a really prominent shot. And, B, like, you're basketball, not just podcast. Good for you.
JS: But, you know, who's a better sponsor than Squarespace?
AM: Tab for a Cause.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Hell yeah.
AM: Point being, it's really interesting in the world, when you see ads, where ads didn't used to be. It can be a classic. It can be interesting. But this is a point where like, when you open up a tab, you are never looking at anything. And you're just going to type in the URL. But, in that split second, before you type something in, you can see a calming picture and raise money for charity.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And it doesn't impact your day, like, at all.
JS: I know. That's, honestly, the best way to use the internet in my opinion.
AM: Truly. Right.
JS: It's just – it’s, it's such – it's such a lawful good way of using the internet.
AM: Yeah. It really is. And the people at Tab for a Cause are really, really sweet. We've been talking to them in the process of setting up the sponsorship. And they're going to let us know how much money Team Spirits is raising for charity. So, if you go to tabforacause.com/spirits – that's tabforacause.com/spirits – link is also in the description – you can install a browser extension, join Team Spirits that way, and help us raise a boatload of money.
JS: Yeah. We want to see how much y'all can bring to the table when it comes to sweet, sweet donations to a charity.
AM: And, every time I, that I open a tab and immediately forget what URL I was going to type in, I can at least be raising money for charity.
JS: That's, that's the important part.
AM: Cool. So, thank you, again, Tab for a Cause. And, with that, let's get back to the show.
JS: I guess I want to – I'd like to transition into a little bit about the history of tarot.
JK: Let's, let's start at the beginning. So, the original tarot cards, Tarocchi, they're Italian, which I also think probably, on some level, explains why I've always been drawn to them because I'm, I'm part Italian. So, they, the first – the first known tarot cards emerged in Italy in the 1440s. They were intended just as playing cards. They, they did not have any kind of mystic or occult connotation. They were – they were cards that were drawn for, you know, well, well-to-do people to play card games with. And they don't really – there's no – there's not – no real clear information on how the game was played. Some people have speculated that it was a game that was sort of equivalent to maybe bridge. That's unknown.
JS: So, it was a game that old ladies would play.
JK: That's right. Yeah. A bunch of old Italian ladies just hanging out play Tarocchi bridge.
AM: Yeah. Bridge, bridge seems like an occult hobby to me, because it seems like, once you turn a certain age, you just acquire the skills to play bridge.
JS: Like mahjong.
JK: So, even though it's not clear, you know, what – how exactly the cards are being used. It is – it is totally 100 percent clear that they were not intended to be used for cartomancy. So, cartomancy is the term that seems like – you know, necromancy is --
AM: Yeah.
JK: -- magic that involves the dead. Cartomancy is magic or occult or fortune telling that involves cards.
JS: Mhmm.
JK: In some – somewhere between 1450 and 1470, the church decided they did not like these cards. And --
AM: Classic Catholic Church.
JK: Yeah. The good old capital C church. And I should say I – even though I wasn't raised particularly Catholic, I am Catholic. I was – I was married in the church and all that stuff. So, I'm not – nothing, nothing that I say here should be taken as, like, a disrespect on the – on the Catholic Church at all. But that was also part of the reason that I asked if your fiance was Catholic, because I --
JS: Mhmm.
JK: -- hear a lot from Catholics that they are very uncomfortable with tarot. So --
JS: Yeah. Both Amanda and I were raised in the Catholic Church as well. So --
JK: Oh, yeah.
AM: Yeah. And just like something, something in my body is like, “Nope if that's like a saint.” And you can't do that, no, you know. Like, there's --
JK: Yeah.
AM: -- there's just some kind of – I don't know. I mean, again, it's, it's probably because it's really familiar, you know. And it probably like hits some things that, you know, are either like a familiar version of something or like just slightly queer to slightly off from things that you learn. So, I mean I understand why it would hit close to home.
JS: Yeah. I'm the rebellious Catholic. So, I just kind of roll with it.
JK: The iconography in tarot should feel familiar to you if you're Catholic, because a lot of it – I mean, obviously, just simply based on where it originated from, a lot of it --
AM: Yeah.
JK: -- came out of a highly religious culture and, obviously, was pulling on imagery and iconography of the dead. And, so, it should look very familiar to you. And, in fact, one of the things that the, the church – it was the Franciscans specifically --
AM: [Inaudible 29:43].
JK: -- that they’ve seen some. It’s that there's – one of the cards is called the devil. And, so, the Franciscans sort of seized on this card and declared the cards themselves and whatever – the games that were being played with them a triumph of the devil.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: Seems fair.
JK: And, so, that was – that was kind of it for the tarot for, for a good long while.
AM: Yeah. Nothing like being blacklisted by the Franciscans to really take the umph of it up in common being.
JK: Exactly. So, then fast forward to 1770. And there was a – that’s the start of the first use of the tarot for occult or mystic purposes, emerged during that time. Divinatory meetings were assigned to the 32 cards from the original Tarrochi deck. And that was – that was when the card sort of made the transition from just like innocuous playing cards to cartomancy. AM: Mhmm.
JK: And, during that time, there was sort – sort of this murky – this murky thing that was being said that the, the cards originated or the imagery from the cards originally – originated in Egypt. This is not true. Then throughout – throughout sort of that, that whole period and leading up into the 20th century, it was also said that the cards originated with the Roma. That they originated from the Kabbalah and, and Jewish traditions. And it's, it's, it's pretty clear that none of that is true. But, but you'll see those threads kind of woven throughout all of tarot history. It is pretty clear that it was, like, literally, just Italian playing cards and not – nothing more than that.
JS: That's a – I feel like that's a common thing just being a historian myself. It's a common thing that we go through cycles of our Western culture being obsessed with non-Western culture.
AM: Right.
JS: So, starting it out in --
JK: Yeah.
JS: -- Egypt, that was a really big thing during the early, early 1800s, especially in the United States and then kind of moving past that to Kabbalism or the Roma in particular. That's, it's something that we, we get obsessed with the culture.
AM: Yeah.
JK: Mhmm.
JS: We try and tie everything back to that. And then we move on to something else later on. AM: Yeah. Or it's like – it's like a safe – you know, safe to the – to the, you know, Westerners or American’s way to kind of explore, you know, desires or hobbies that are kind of marked as like – I don't know – transgressive or other.
JK: Mhmm.
AM: You know, it's just sort of dress it up in, you know, a stereotypical outfit, you know, or --
JS: Fancy foreigner. Whatever nonsense.
AM: Exactly. Like, exoticism and whatnot.
JK: Yeah.
AM: Like it's, it's a – it's not – it's not the thing that you grew up with. And, and it's a way to say like, “Oh, you know, I'm not deviant for, you know, thinking about this thing.” And, anyway, she's like an – you know, an association of a kind of escapist fantasy I think a lot of the time.
JS: Yeah.
JK: Yeah, absolutely. And it's actually – so, so, speaking of sort of the, the, like Egyptian obsession, in 1789, the first Egyptian tarot was published. That's called the Thoth, T-H-O-T-H, which you'll see still used in a lot of tarot docs and tarot literature. Thoth is the Egyptian god, god of wisdom. So, that, that was the deck that sort of first put out tarot as divinatory cards. And this is actually – so, as a historian, you'll also love this. That whole theory was basically totally blown out of the water not too, too long afterwards because of the Rosetta Stone.
JS: Of course.
AM: Yeah. Classic Rosetta Stone.
JS: Classic Rosetta.
JK: Yeah. So, that was just good.
JS: Just kill it.
JK: Way, way to go Rosetta Stone.
AM: Yeah. It's like, you know, the answers to lots of questions you've always had and also everyone is just wrong.
JS: Everyone is just so, so wrong. I'm sorry.
AM: Yeah.
JK: So, so wrong. So, then we fast forward to the 20th century. An artist named Waite, W-A-I-T-E, which is another, another name that you'll see all the time in tarot, created a standard deck that we know today. So, that's, that's kind of like, if you think of tarot, if you think of a deck, if you've gone to get a reading, you have probably seen the Rider-Waite deck. And, actually, that's the one I was talking about the first step that I had in middle school.
JS: Yes.
JK: It's the Rider-Waite one. That's the most common one. It's the one that you'll recognize if you – if you go and buy like a catch-all tray with a tarot card image on it. It's definitely one from the Rider-Waite deck.
JS: Gotcha.
AM: I love that guy's name, because it, it sounds like the sort of invitation to introspection that it seems like every tarot reading represents. Like, you can ride or you can wait y'all. Like, you can – you can come and, and, like, assess yourself and reckon with your future and your choices or you can just not.
JS: I also like that you picked up a Southern saying.
JK: I love it. That’s – that is so, so good.
JS: You ride or you die.
AM: It's like – it's like a thing in Walker Texas Ranger.
JK: That’s a very modern take.
AM: Right. Right.
JK: So, that's, that's basically the history of the tarot. And, you know, modern tarot is very, very much based on the Rider-Waite. The deck that I was using today for my reader – for my reading is called the Morgan Greer. It's beautiful. It's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. If you guys want a deck, I would definitely suggest getting the Morgan Greer one, because it's so breathtaking. Even though my reading has like recently has not been maybe exactly what I want them to be --
AM: Right.
JK: -- I can’t even get mad because the cards are so beautiful that I'm like, “Okay. Well, I'll forgive you.”
AM: Right. Right.
JS: It’s fine. You’re still pretty.
JK: Because it’s beautiful. Yeah, because they’re so pretty. So, so, yeah. So, that's kind of where we are. The other thing is – and, actually, yeah, you maybe find this interesting because it goes a little bit back to what we were talking about with the, the imagery based on, on medieval Christian and Catholic motifs. It’s that there are two, two cards in the – in the Rider-Waite deck; The High Priestess and The Hierophant. Originally, those two cards were the Papess and the Pope.
JS: Ooh.
AM: Ooh, ooh, ooh.
JS: We looked at it from this side [Inaudible 35:54].
JK: Yeah. And they were changed. The names were changed basically to sort of separate the deck away from Catholicism. And then another, another sort of little like terminology change that happened was that, just like with a regular deck of playing cards, there’s suits. But then there are also sort of major – what we call in tarot the Major, Major Arcana and the Minor Arcana. Originally, the Major Arcana was known as the trump cards, and the Minor was known as the pip cards. And I, personally – not to get overly political and very happy that they're no longer called the trump cards.
AM: Yes.
JK: But I would not enjoy using trump cards.
JS: Same. Same. Same.
JK: And then the suits themselves have different texts used, slightly different nomenclature for some of the suits. But, generally speaking, the accepted ones are cups, wands, pentacles, and swords. And cups and swords have sort of always been cups and swords. Wands have gone by either staves or batons. And pentacles are sometimes known as coins.
AM: Huh.
JS: I like Pentacles better. It’s just my opinion.
AM: That’s a good – that’s a good one.
JK: I do too. It feels – it feels more in line with the spooky nature of a tarot I guess.
JS: Exactly.
AM: Yeah, right. What other occult things are you into? Is that the right word to use?
JK: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean it's fine with me. I don't know if it's fine with everybody else, but it’s fine with me. I do a lot of candle magic. I think that I'm also drawn to candle magic because, again, I think it's like a tie into the, the Catholic thing that my mom – even though my mom broke with the church before I was born and didn't, didn't raise me in the church, she's like still always rushing off to the church to light candles.
AM: Yes.
JK: And, and I think that, for whatever reason, working with candle magic brings me a lot of comfort, and it feels very familiar to me. I also find that, when I'm doing it, I call on my grandmother, my mother's mother, who was very religiously Catholic – when I'm doing that, I feel very connected to her. And I – and I feel connected to her energy and the fact that she's, you know, an angel who looks over me. And I also kind of know, like, even though she was a religious Catholic, like, she would not be mad at me for doing something that's a little bit different, because she would recognize the ritual of it.
AM: Sure. Wow, yeah.
JK: So, those are probably my, my little tip. Tarot and the candle magic are probably the two things I do. And candle magic, for me, is very much tied into the lunar cycle. And, so, certainly, paying attention to the full moons and the new moons is very important to me. And I tend to do my rituals on those – when those two things fall. I'm super, super into astrology.
JS: Mhmm.
JK: Crazy into astrology. I love astrology.
AM: Wow.
JK: I totally believe in it. And I have – I have a favorite astrologer. Her name is Annabel Gat. And she's amazing. And I just, like, really enjoy her work. And I'm kind of obsessed with her. I want to have her on my podcast, but I can't figure out how to, like, combine astrology and cleaning.
AM: Spiritual cleaning.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Clean up – clean up your self perception.
JK: Yeah. Well, no, that's the thing. I have – there's actually a lot of spiritual cleaning stuff that I can do. And I want – my tarot reader, who I was raving about, she actually used to – she kind of shut it down, because she said it was just so much work. But she used to have what – sort of a side business where she went into people's homes to do spiritual cleansing. AM: Yeah.
JK: And she had cleaning products that she made that were, you know, all natural and based in, you know, certain herbs and properties that were – that would literally, you know, clean surfaces.
AM: Sure.
JK: But also would spiritually cleanse your home. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, she can come at my podcast. And we got to talk about this stuff. And it's so great.” Like – so, that stuff totally works within the construct of my show. But I'm not sure that astrology necessarily really does. But I'm sure I can figure out a way.
AM: I just love that so much. I mean from feng shui to burning sage to, you know, even --
JK: Mhmm.
AM: I don't know. Like, people – you know, feeling, is this pillow right for me or like does this arrangement of my living room feel correct?
JK: Mhmm.
AM: There's so much to be said for combining the, like, physical, you know, appearance and cleanliness and just, like, what your home smells like to your well being.
JK: Yeah, absolutely.
JS: Right. It's, it’s not even a psychological thing. It can be an empathetic or a spiritual thing too. So --
AM: Yeah. And like after.
JK: Actually, one of – one of the reasons that I don't have that much stuff under my bed is because it's bad feng shui to have a lot of stuff on your bed.
AM: Right.
JS: That's true.
JK: And, ideally, I would have nothing. But, unfortunately, I live in a tiny, tiny, tiny little apartment in Manhattan. And I need to store my big ladder and my toolbox under my bed.
JS: Make sense.
AM: Where else do you keep it?
JK: There’s literally no – there's literally no other place for those two things. But I also am like, “Okay. Well, a ladder is actually a good thing under a bed.”
AM: Right.
JK: Because it's upward movement. And my tools are not a bad thing either. Like, they, they build things and they fix things. And, so --
AM: They're productive.
JK: -- I sort of – I sort of tell myself this., But this is actually really funny. I think you'll appreciate this. My – totally, inadvertently, when I moved into this apartment, I put all of my cleaning supplies like my vacuums and my, my feather dusters and all that in what actually turned out to be my money corner.
AM: Ooh.
JS: That made sense.
JK: And it was way, way, way before I was doing Ask a Clean Person.
AM: Wow.
JS: There you go.
AM: That really is fortuitous.
JK: Yeah.
JS: That is pretty.
JK: Yeah, actually, I – actually, I take that back. It wasn't way before. It was like maybe a year or two before Ask a Clean Person started.
AM: Still.
JS: Yeah. That is --
JK: Yeah.
JS: Same, same with that spiritual guidance.
JK: Yeah. So, like, I had manifested this job for myself inadvertently I think.
AM: That – there's something to be said for it. Listen, if it works for you, it works for you.
JK: Yeah.
JS: Exactly.
JK: Yeah.
AM: Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would love to talk about?
JK: Gosh, no. I think, you know, I just would really encourage people to – if they feel afraid of tarot, to think of it again, you know, not as fortune telling, but really more as spiritual guidance. And, you know, I use it for clarity. It's also fun, you know.
AM: Yeah.
JK: And the imagery is really, really beautiful. And I just think it's a neat thing to do. And I would also say this. For people who want to experiment with tarot, the first place – the first place to start is to go get a reading.
JS: Right.
JK: Don't, don't try to get a deck and teach yourself and learn. You'll, you'll, you'll be so confused. And it, it is overwhelming. There are a lot of cards. There's a lot to learn. I will, in my lifetime, never, never fully master the tarot.
AM: Yeah.
JK: And, so, I would say that the right place to start is to go to a reading. When you do, work with your reader. Again, it's not fortune telling. You can't expect that they're going to read your mind or that they're going to look into your cards and go, “Oh, I know everything about you.”
JS: Yeah.
JK: That's not – that's not the way that it works at all. It's a – it's a conversation and a story that's being told through the cards with your reader. And, if you don't participate in that conversation, you're not going to get the full benefit of the reading out of it.
AM: Yeah.
JK: And that's also I think a really good way for people to take kind of some of the, the sort of like occult feeling that might scare people out of it, because then it does feel like a therapy session.
AM: Yeah, exactly. It's like an invitation to think about yourself, and your life, and your future. And whether that is, you know, a long walk that you take on your own or, you know, seeing something that reminds you of childhood or having this kind of structured way to say, you know, what, actually, does the universe want me to be thinking about right now. That makes so much sense to me.
JK: Yeah. I love that. I love the way you put that.
AM: Oh, thanks. You taught me well. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Jolie, for joining us. Where can people find you on the internet?
JK: People can find me on, on Twitter @JolieKerr, J-O-L-I-E K-E-R-R. I write columns for Lifehacker, Jalopnik, and Deadspin. And my podcast is called Ask a Clean Person Podcasts, which you can find on iTunes, Acasts, Stitcher, all the usual places you find podcasts. And you can also follow me on Facebook at facebook.com/AskaCleanPerson.
AM: Yey. And I recommend that you do. Everyone needs to know how to clean a little bit better. And Jolie's got your back when you have to Google embarrassing questions.
JK: Yes. I love the embarrassing questions. The more embarrassing, the better. So, don't be shy.
AM: Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much again for joining us.
JK: Thank you for having me.
JS: And remember, listeners, stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merge on our website spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, director’s commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share us with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil