Episode 61: Deer Woman
/This week, we read some first-person accounts about the Deer Woman, a spirit in several indigenous North American cultures that punishes the wicked and protects women. We discuss imperialism, weird rules in fairy tales, the flaws in studying history, and how the woods seems (depends on where you’re at).
Read the first-person accounts we reference and many more: The Lakota Deer Woman, Mythic Passages, Deer Woman: An Anthology.
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 61: Deer Woman.
JS: Yeah. This is an episode topic that I've been meaning to do for a very long time with. But I also wanted to be very cautious with it, because we are white women. We are not native.
AM: Yeah.
JS: We are not indigenous.
AM: It's true.
JS: So, I wanted to make sure that I handled it with a lot of research and delicacy, which hopefully I did.
AM: I think you did. I had a really, really good time learning about it and talking about it. I think more than usual.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, I'm hopeful that, that folks really enjoyed it as well.
JS: Yeah, I'm, I'm hoping so.
AM: And do you know who we enjoy very much?
JS: That would be our patrons.
AM: Our patrons and welcome to our newest members. These are people who support us on Patreon, who give as little as $1 to see like behind-the-scenes notes and photos and live streams. And some of them get physical stuff. It's so cool. So, welcome to Petra, Noelle, Tracey, Emily, Kat, Leslie. And Rachel Dunn It's her Birthday. Happy Birthday.
JS: Happy Birthday.
AM: We love you.
JS: We love you. Good job. Good job living this long.
AM: Absolutely. And also good job to our supporting producer-level patrons. Cammie, Neal, Chandra, Philip, Julie, Sara, Kristina, Josh, Eeyore, Ryan, Shelby, Lin, Mercedes, Sandra, Robert, Lindsey, Phil, Catherine and Debra.
JS: I love that song.
AM: I know. I love it too. It's just the song of, like, steadfast, wonderful, like-minded listeners. And I love it so much.
JS: Yes, they’re so – they’re so beautiful and so perfect.
AM: And thank you also to our legend-level patrons. We send them physical stuff every single month. And this month they got a book of mixology, which I don’t know if we had an extra. It might be --
JS: I do. It’s at our house.
AM: Oh, good. Because I really want to read it and take some notes.
JS: It's really good.
AM: As well as an ice try with a little skull and crossbones.
JS: It's very cute.
AM: It's really adorable. So, Julia is often the one that picks up these items and puts together just a wonderful, like, selection of stuff that we send out every single month to our legend-level patrons.
JS: Yeah. It's mostly me going crazy with my Amazon wish list, and then sending a bunch of links to Amanda. And she's like, “We can’t afford these things.” And I will say, “Thank you, mom.”
AM: So, thank you also to LeAnn, Ashley, Shannon, Cassie and AshleyMarie for sustaining us at the legend level.
JS: Yeah. You're so great.
AM: So great.
JS: So great.
AM: And we actually want to do something a little bit different in terms of our recommendations and our sponsor support this week. And we are dedicating this episode to the other shows that we do. We recently made the sort of exciting decision to create a little, like, brands name for the podcast that we produce. So, we're calling it a production collective, because it's just a bunch of our friends get together and make cool stuff. And it is led by Spirits, the show that you're listening to.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Join the Party, the audio drama/Dungeons and Dragons podcast that I am on with several of our friends.
JS: Which is wonderful.
AM: Which I think is very wonderful. Potterless, where a 26-year-old man, our friend, Mike Schubert, reads Harry Potter for the first time.
JS: Yeah. If you like all of our dumb Harry Potter references and would like to hear us talk in-depth about Harry Potter in multiple episodes with Mike, Potterless is the show to listen to.
AM: Yeah. Every member of Team Spirits as well as Eric Silver, who is the DM on Join the Party and has been a frequent, a twice – two episode guest on Spirits have guested on Potterless and we just enjoy it so much.
JS: Yeah. Eric's episodes on Potterless were probably one of my favorites.
AM: Yeah. He did Order of the Phoenix, and it was – it was funny. There are lots of – lots of shade being thrown at was a wizard Christmas.
JS: Yeah. And also some real sick burns about Harry being a whiny high schooler. This is true. Man, they’re really good.
AM: This is true. And, finally, our new show Waystation.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Which we launched just a few weeks ago. So, Julia, Eric Schneider, editor of Spirits, and myself are watching one of our favorite TV Shows of All Time, Lost Girl, with mythology, with weird wigs, with a lot of queerness, with some like odd fairy politics. And we are just, every other week, watch a new episode, talking about it with you. And we would love for you to listen. So, we're Waystation in any podcast app.
JS: Yeah. Do you want to tell the people the name of our cool podcast collective thing?
AM: The name is Multitude.
JS: Yes.
AM: And discerning listeners will know why. Why is it called that, Jules?
JS: Because we contain multitudes, and it's also – I learned – I learned recently --
AM: Yep.
JS: -- it’s also a quote from your favorite poem, Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman.
AM: Yes. Julia thought I made it up, which would have been wonderful.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But I must give – I must give credit to Walt Whitman, but that's the whole idea. And we are really, really stoked about it. It makes us really happy. You can find out more about us and the team and these shows at the URL multitude.productions. It's like – it’s like .com but .productions. And I was very happy about, about that – getting that URL.
JS: It's a good URL.
AM: Thank you. But it's an exciting time for us. I don't know. It feels to me like a commitment to doing podcasting, to doing audio, to make and stuff for a living. And --
JS: I did it.
AM: -- I’m excited to be here with you Jules on this journey.
JS: It's always nice to be here with you, Amanda.
AM: Well, we hope that you check that out and that you enjoy it. But, regardless, we hope that you enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 61: Deer Woman.
Intro Music
JS: So, Amanda, this week, we're going to talk about a topic that we've – I think we've, you know, been talking about doing on Spirits for quite a while now.
AM: What topic is that?
JS: That is the Deer Woman.
AM: Oh, did we mention her in our 30 Myths in 30 Minutes?
JS: We did.
AM: First anniversary Bonanza.
JS: We did
AM: In February of 2017.
JS: Was it? Oh, yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Sure. It was February 2017.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I thought it was ‘16 for a second. I was like, “Nope, too far.”
AM: Too far. Too far
JS: Too far. Too far. But, yeah, let's be real here. The, like, two minutes that I spent talking about the Deer Woman were not enough time.
AM: Ooh.
JS: But it’s such an interesting topic. And I really, really want to dive in deep. But, first things first, I want to kind of give some disclaimers at the beginning of this episode.
AM: All right.
JS: To start off, this is an indigenous story. You and I are both white women. Clearly, we're not indigenous people.
AM: That's true.
JS: I want to talk about the fact that I'm going to be using the term indigenous, which refers to 600+ different cultures that are all native to North America.
AM: Mhmm.
JS: So, I'm not talking about one, like, monolithic culture.
AM: Right.
JS: Because there is none.
AM: It’s like a vibrant, you know, multicultural society.
JS: It's extremely diverse. Like multiple societies. So many societies over all of North America.
AM: Yeah. And still to this day.
JS: Yeah. I'm also not going to be saying anything like the Native Americans believed because, first off, that's past tense, which is silly.
AM: Right.
JS: Because this is still [Inaudible 6:20] --
AM: Living culture.
JS: Yeah, a living culture. Still beliefs that are practiced and valued today. Like I said, indigenous cultures are not a monolith. There are over 600 different Native American cultures. And the story that I'm gonna be telling only applies to a few.
AM: Mhmm.
JS: And I, I need to tell this story the best way I can without meaning any offense. I'm aware that native spiritualities are closed and not open to outsiders. So, we would never encourage any one of our listeners that isn't indigenous to try and worship. Rather, we're just telling these stories as a means of educating.
AM: Exactly. I like that perspective.
JS: Yeah. And there's a lot of cultural appropriation surrounding these topics and a lot of indigenous beliefs. And I wanna be very cautious because, you know, as white people, we've done a lot of these cultures a lot of harm.
AM: Yeah. The reason a lot of them – you know, that – that, you know, white folks view a lot of these cultures as being monolithic or being dead is because of the like centuries of systemic disruption --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- leveled against them.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: So, we're aware that these are complex waters, but I think that shouldn't stop us from, you know, picking amazing stories and sharing them with a wider audience.
JS: Yes, I agree. So, we are going to discuss the Deer Woman. She's also sometimes known as the Deer Lady. And we did mention it briefly during our anniversary episode last year --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- the 30 Myths in 30 Minutes.
AM: Which is a great episode.
JS: It was a good episode.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I would encourage our listeners who perhaps maybe are starting with these episodes and moving backwards to take a look at that, because it covered a lot of different stuff that we, you know, briefly mentioned.
AM: Yeah. It is really good for party stories. You can tell it in about 30 to 90 seconds. A very, very cool story.
JS: It's really a lot of fun. So, the Deer Woman has documented stories in quite a few different indigenous cultures, including the Sioux, the Ponca, the Omaha people Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Choctaw, the Otoe tribe, the Osage, the Pawnee people, and the Iroquois depending on --
AM: Wow.
JS: -- you know, different translations.
AM: And, if I'm not mistaken, that's, like, geographically pretty diverse, too.
JS: Yeah. So, it tends to be Great Plains areas and then some like North Eastern forest areas.
AM: Yeah. Iroquois. I know we learned about, being from New York State, you know, lots of, like, Iroquois traditions and stuff like that.
JS: Yeah. We're not gonna talk too much about the Iroquois in this just because I couldn't find a lot of first person accounts. And that was what I was really striving to do in order to, like, tell these stories, because, you know, white scholars --
AM: White scholars. Yeah.
JS: -- get a lot of shit wrong a lot of the times.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But, when you're getting the stories directly from indigenous people, I feel more comfortable telling the stories that way.
AM: Sure.
JS: So, you're gonna hear a lot of quotes from me in this episode that are from indigenous people rather than me taking it from scholarly sources.
AM: Smart.
JS: So, we're – we'll go from there. So, the fact that it's spread through a lot of different cultural means has a few reasons, but we can mostly rationalize it as the forced integration of indigenous people into white culture and then the misinterpretation of non-indigenous scholars.
AM: There we go.
JS: Yeah. So, it seems vaguely to centralize that – around the Eastern Woodlands and the Central Plains. And, like a lot of indigenous cultures, it is not accurately studied or documented.
AM: Yep.
JS: It's told within stories, but, you know, a lot of the indigenous cultures tend to orally transmit their stories. Whereas they're not super written down a lot of the times. So --
AM: Yeah. And that's one of the ways in which, you know, colonization and, and like imperialism are super shitty.
JS: Yes.
AM: Because it, you know, imposed, in this case, a like, you know, written evidentiary English language, you know, like documentable type version of history that is written by like the white male --
JS: Victors.
AM: -- victor's.
JS: Mhmm.
AM: And it, you know, lost a lot. It loses a lot.
JS: Yeah. But, like I said, we're gonna take a lot of indigenous perspective into account here when telling the story.
AM: Well, I'm excited to learn it from that perspective.
JS: Yeah. But, because many cultures have this story, there's a few different versions that are told.
AM: Nice.
JS: The first one that I want to discuss is a Lakota Sioux man, who is part of the USC Digital Folklore Archives --
AM: Ooh.
JS: -- which is a great database for folklore performances. And I highly recommend our listeners to check it out. I'll put it in the show notes so that people can find it easily.
AM: As in University of Southern California?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Nice.
JS: Actually, a lot of the stories were coming out of California. I guess there's a pretty large indigenous population in those areas, subjectively, compared to other parts of the country. So --
AM: And I think there's a lot of public arts funding and historical funding in California compared to other states. So, that's interesting.
JS: Yeah. So, the man didn't give his name in this, but we do know that’s a man. He's about 48, I think. And he's Lakota Sioux. So, here's the quote from him. When I was a kid I was told this legend. And I’ve heard it many times. The Lakota believe this and the other plains tribes do it too as far as I know. There is a creature called Deer Woman, and she shapeshifts into a woman – a human woman. And she goes to pow wows. A pow wow is a gathering where you have dancing and food and things like that. They usually compete with the dancing. It’s a Native tradition. It’s like a party. This is all his quote.
AM: Nice.
JS: And she’ll be at the pow wow all night as a beautiful woman. And the last dance is the rabbit dance. And it’s the dance where the lady picks the man. And she’ll pick whichever young man she wants. And he’ll dance with her. And she gets him to take him home. And, when she’s going home with him, she turns back into a deer. And it scares him and, you know, bad things can happen. They say that part of the lore is, when you’re dancing with a girl you don’t know or even a girl you do know, always check her feet, because, Deer Woman, when she shapeshifts, but her feet still remain a deer’s feet. So, under the bottom of her dress, because her dress is long, if you look, you won’t see human feet. You’ll see deer feet.
AM: Wohoho. That's an accusive image.
JS: I know. It's your favorite thing too where it's --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- nonhuman people things on --
AM: Animal and human mixed. I do really love the, the trope though of like something remains, something carries over when shapeshifting is imperfect or when, you know, werewolf transformation just begins. Like, these are obviously all very different things. But that idea that like, you know, there is some essential truth or some like – you know, something that belies your true form, that's awesome.
JS: Yeah. There's also – he mentions, in a later story that I didn't, didn't quote, that, if you surprise her, you'll see her tail pop out --
AM: Noo!
JS: -- like her little deer tail," which I think is very, very cute.
AM: That's adorable and so charming. Also, I love that there is no specific – like, “And then she murders him. And she likes suck his soul out.”
JS: Well, we're getting there.
AM: Well, in this case, it just seems – it seems very pure. Like you don't – never know what will happen.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Don't go home with strange women.
JS: So, he goes on, after this, to describe that he heard of a man who went to a pow wow, met a girl there, and he was supposed to take her home, but decided, at the last minute, that he wasn’t going to because he had a girlfriend at the time.
AM: Smart. Solid choice.
JS: So, he ditches the girl and leaves. And, while he was driving home, a deer jumped in front of his car, which caused him to crash and totally wreck his car.
AM: Oh, my goodness.
JS: The man explains that he thinks the moral of the story is to teach young men and women to be modest and not to just go home with anybody.
AM: Sure.
JS: And, if you do, they say check her feet because that way you really know what you're going home with or who you're going home with.
AM: I was thinking too. Like, if I'm dancing with a pretty lady, I'm not gonna be looking at her feet. Like, I'm going to be like, you know, looking at her face and other body parts.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And it's sort of interesting. Like, okay, well, in the haze of lust or in the haze of infatuation, you know, take a moment and like assess, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like pull your, your eyes away from her transfixing eyes or face or whatever.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's kind of cool.
JS: Yeah. He also theorizes that the Deer Woman could sense that the man was having adulterous thoughts, and that’s why she targeted him.
AM: Ooh. He’s a mark, right?
JS: Which – yeah. Which gets into some interesting theories about, you know, is she kind of a weird succubus or siren type of spirit or is she --
AM: Or psychic in some way.
JS: Or – yeah. I think, usually, if one is in touch with the spirit world, in which case the Deer Woman is because she has a type of spirit --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- she, she can, like, tap into human emotions and stuff like that.
AM: That's awesome. I bet, to a lot of animals too, humans are just like so laughably easy to read.
JS: Mhmm.
AM: You know, like body language is such a bigger thing in almost every other species than ours.
JS: Oh, yeah, for sure.
AM: I imagine it's almost like, like an AI that has to, like, live at human speed. And they're like, “I'm doing 14 million things. And you're just sitting here talking at me.”
JS: Yeah.
AM: It is how an animal will feel looking at our dumb primate faces. Being like, “I don't know. I'm kind of sad.” Like, “Yeah. No, no shit. I got that from like the way your eyes crinkled.”
JS: Yeah. I like that a lot. I – we tend to think of animals as like, you know, less, less in touch with, like, ideas, but, you know, they have to – they have to read body language a lot more than we do.
AM: Yes.
JS: And like, you know, because we're just – we're dumb humans where we talk about stuff that bothers us.
AM: Yeah, which is like – which is so imperfect, right? Like, like, translating thought and emotion and, and whatever into language and then proceeding it back again in our own brains. Like, a lot is lost in translation.
JS: Right.
AM: That's why languages is like – you know, has millions of words in it.
JS: Yeah. And then you add like texting into it, and like no one can read tone and text.
AM: Listen, as a – as a person with difficulty discussing my feelings, Emoji has been a godsend. And I very much appreciate them. But, point being, yeah, like animals, you know, with limited or no, like, verbal language ability, like have to be so much more perceptive.
JS: Yeah. I like that.
AM: And we're just – we're just big and dumb.
JS: That's a really good point.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I really like that a lot. So, another version of the story is told by an indigenous journalist named Carolyn Dunn, who tells the story of her family’s Muskogee/Seminole/Cherokee heritage.
AM: Ooh.
JS: So, she was asked as part of an interview with Mythic Passages magazine, which --
AM: Can we subscribe to that magazine?
JS: Yeah. I want to real bad. And I think this is back in 2004 or 2006. I can't remember exactly. So, she talks about the importance of animal metamorphosis and folklore and mythology.
AM: Oh, sure.
JS: So, she describes the Deer Woman as both a spirit and a woman at the same time. And that the dichotomy, she tries to explain, is not problematic. It’s just simply how the Deer Woman exists.
AM: Yeah. Like, we are, again, big dumb animals, human beings, like, limited to one plane of existence, but other beings can be, you know, things that are both.
JS: Right. So, she explains that the story of the Deer Woman is a puberty narrative.
AM: Huh.
JS: So, to quote, Miss Dunn says, “She teaches us the correct way of behaving and especially the correct use of our sexuality in terms of our marriage rites. The gist of the story is that the Deer Woman is very beautiful, very enticing. It's easy for you to fall in love with her. If you notice that she's a deer, you look down at her feet. And you can see, instead of feet, she has hooves. And you think, "Oh, this is Deer Woman. And I know who I'm dealing with." So, you're okay, because you're able to think, "I can recognize who she is." But, if you don't recognize who she is, you become totally enchanted by her. Completely enspelled by her. And she drives you to madness and some say prostitution and illness or disease, which break with the community.”
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That is super interesting and then kind of like sobering, right? Like, kind of looking up from the infatuation to say, “Okay. What am I actually doing here?”
JS: Right. I think I really like this idea of it – like it's very much focusing both of the stories that we just kind of focused on. It's all about, like, knowing a person.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Like, as long as you know a person, you know what you're dealing with.
AM: Yeah. Like, a person doesn’t have to be perfect for you to decide to, like, date or go home with them.
JS: Right. Right.
AM: Like, if you – if you know what you're dealing with, you can make an informed choice. But, if you don't, you can't.
JS: Yeah. And I, I just really liked that sort of imagery where it's like, as long as you're aware of your situation, you can figure out how to handle it. You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
JS: Like, even, even from like a non-dating perspective or non-romantic perspective --
AM: Sure.
JS: -- or what have you, knowing what you're dealing with makes everything easier.
AM: It does, right? The unknown is, is so freakin scary.
JS: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I, I really like that concept a lot.
AM: And, particularly, like, I think it's really fascinating the, the kind of puberty angle too --
JS: Mhmm.
AM: -- which I always find to be such a gross word. Like, I hear that word --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- I'm like, “Oh, god, I'm sorry.” I don't know if it's like – if it's like memories or if it's just the way that the word was treated when we were kids.
JS: Probably both.
AM: I think probably both. It's almost like a whole new, like, plane of interpretation and sensing is opened up, you know, when – if you see people actually that – when you start to do that for the first time. And you – I don't know. It can – it can be so overwhelming. Like, it's, it's a thing that feels like a new toy. Like a thing that is just so oversensitive and overly weighted in your brain that it really does take someone being like, “Okay. No, slow down. Think. You know, this is not the only person you'll ever find attractive. This is not the only opportunity you'll ever have to smooch. And, and, you know, take a second and think.” So, especially in that time of just like, “Oh, god, what do I do? Or, oh, god, this thing is what I need. Let me let me use it right away.” I think it makes sense that there is some kind of like cautionary tale.
JS: Right.
AM: You know, but not to make a pun about tails --
JS: No.
AM: -- built in here.
JS: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting because the whole story is about teaching what behavior is acceptable within the community.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And like the consequences of what acting outside of that acceptable behavior will lead to, which I really – I really like just as a societal thing. Like, building in your morals by like – by like creating the, like, stay within these rules. And, as long as you stay within these rules, that will – you know, you'll, you'll find success or you'll, you'll be okay. And it kind of reminds me a little bit of sex education a little bit.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Where it's like, “Hey, you know, as long as you know what you're doing, you're gonna be fine.” And like dealing with, like, pubescent teen boys who just like would want to run off into the forest with any girl that they find. Like, I get it. Like, you know, we've all been there. Giving, like, fair warning being like, “There are consequences to your actions when it comes to sex or when it comes to deviating from what the community believes, you know, should be your priorities.”
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's a really, really interesting use of mythology.
AM: I wonder if that's why so many fairy tales have kind of arbitrary roles.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, like don't open this box. You know, get, get three of these. Like, don't stray off the path. Maybe it's a way of teaching kids that, even if you don't understand the purpose of a rule, you still have to follow it, because like rules are, you know, set by adults and like parents set limits on kids in ways that they don't think are fair or reasonable.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But the fact is like people with greater reason have set them for a reason.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, you know, fairy tales, I know it just like – it mythologizes following an almost, like, obscure, rule set. And I don't know. Maybe, maybe that's the way we're taught to listen to the man, man.
JS: No, I really like that. And I think I saw something interesting about – someone was talking about parenting. And they were saying like, “It's okay to give your children like rule sets, but like explain to them why even if they're not going to understand it or agree with you at the time.”
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because giving a reasoning will, like, stop rebellion because you gave a reason. Even if they don't get it, they still understand that there is a purpose behind you saying, “Don't run in the street, not because I'm trying to oppress you.”
AM: Right.
JS: But don't run into the street because you could get hurt or you can die.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And, like, you know, it's like an abstract understanding for a child. They’re like, “What is death? What is being hurt? I don't understand.” Like --
AM: I know. Like, the buck is still gonna stop somewhere, but, even if you understand some of the reasons and other reasons you don't, you know, it's, it's treating kids a little bit like functioning members of society in the family, which I'm a fan of.
JS: Yeah. So, the last story – last version of the story that we're going to deal with, it comes from an interview with Weshoyot Alvitre, who is the co-editor of “Deer Woman: An Anthology” --
AM: Ooh.
JS: -- which is a collection of illustrated stories that deal with violence and pay homage to the strength and resilience of indigenous women. So, according to the US-based Indian Law Resource Center, indigenous women are murdered at a rate ten times the national average, are twice as likely to be stalked, three out of five will be physically assaulted in their lifetime, and one in three will be raped.
AM: Oof.
JS: So, this is trying to raise awareness to that fact by using a spirit that is resonating, you know, through different indigenous cultures.
AM: Yeah. That sounds like an amazing anthology and a really serious issue that gets overlooked, you know, so often.
JS: Yeah. And I think it may be available for free online or, at least, I will link to a place where our listeners can buy it because it's really beautiful artwork and really, like – like, emotional, like, comics and stories and stuff like that. And it's really, really nice.
AM: And supports a good cause.
JS: Yes, exactly. So, Weshoyot Alvitre, she chose the Deer Woman as the representation for indigenous women in her anthology because many version portray the Deer Woman as “a powerful spirit-being meant to remind us people of creation to remember our responsibilities, to tend to the fire, and to be aware of the powerful forces that exist beyond the home place.”
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah. I really, really like that. So, she's speaking a mite – a much more positive portrayal of the Deer Woman than the two stories that we kind of showed before. Very much so the Dunn story was sort of a boogeyman character --
AM: Right.
JS: -- that is used as a symbolism for puberty. The story of the Lakota Sioux man is definitely falling into that like a --
AM: Like [Inaudible 24:31] man.
JS: -- boogeyman mentality.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Cut there.
JS: Yeah, exactly. Continuing to describe the Deer Woman, she says, and I quote again, “The story varies from tribe to tribe. I think this book is really interesting in that, in some tribal affiliations, she is looked at as sort of a temptress. If men are doing something wrong in their life, she extinguishes their life force and brings them back to the truth and the good ways. And, in other traditions, she is a reminder that, if you don’t follow the ways, you will be lost. In Native mythology, the natural world and the spiritual world are intertwined. There is almost an empowering aspect to her. She is the figure that has sole control over whatever it is that she is doing and over other people's lives as well.”
AM: Oh, wow. I love that kind of duality of both preventative and also punitive --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- existence, where she can, you know, punish people who have strayed, but also remind you in advance like, “Hey, this is why we have tradition. This is why we have, you know, rules and ways.” And it's a reminder, if you have strayed, you know, I'm sorry and we have to do something about it. And, to those who have not, why you should not.
JS: Yeah. I like this as sort of like a sense of justice within this history.
AM: Ah, exactly.
JS: Which I am not entirely sure if that's the term that indigenous people would use it for. But it's very much like, if you break from the laws of society, if you break from the laws of Nature, there is a certain amount of punishment that has to come with that. That justice needs to be served.
AM: And it reminds me from a, you know, completely different culture about La Lechuza and that kind of interpretation you shared about La Lechuza as kind of coming for victims of domestic violence to help them out.
JS: Mhmm.
AM: And/or to punish the perpetrator, where, you know, if, if this world has failed you in a way that it has failed so many indigenous people and women specifically --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- you know, that there is some kind of higher power, a different plane, you know, a way that the world and nature and your, you know, deities are looking out for you.
JS: Yeah. No. I really like that. I just – I like the idea of – you know me. I love – I love a good feminist icon.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: And I like the idea of the Deer Woman coming to protect women who, you know, clearly, according to a lot of studies, suffer at the hands of other people like both with – within and outside of their communities in a lot – in a way that is terrible. It’s, like, genuinely awful. And, oh, man, I just – I always like a story that brings a defender along for people who are suffering.
AM: Exactly.
JS: Yeah. So, this goes with some stories that the Deer Woman is a benign or guardian spirit as we mentioned before. So, she’s said to also help women conceive children and is associated with fertility and love.
AM: Wow.
JS: According to Weshoyot, the Deer Woman teaches us self strength. I think she represents the raw essence of what it means to be female.
AM: Mhmm.
JS: This, this thing – I love this interpretation. It's like it's made for us really.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's not made for us because we're, we're white folk. But it is a story that we can look at and really find a lot of strength behind it.
AM: Yes. And, again, kind of drawing analogs or seeing similarities in our catalog of myths that we’ve studied so far and I view it as that, I view it like a little like library card catalogs or like little index cards of myths that we’ve learned about. But it reminds me of Medusa a little bit, too --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- where, you know, it's, it's tied up in violence. And it's tied up in, you know, a kind of violent response to a violent offense. And we haven't gotten really into the ways in which Deer Woman, you know, punishes people, which I think that might be intentional. Like, maybe, maybe that's private.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Maybe that's something that is more kind of whispered about and like talked around. As we said earlier, the unknown is the scariest thing.
JS: That's 100 percent true.
AM: And, so, if the consequences are unknown, like, “Oh, man, that is even scarier --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- than knowing that she'll, like, strip your skin off or something, you know.
JS: Yeah. It seemed, from a lot of the stories that I was reading and from the different sources and stuff that, it's very much, like, a bad things will happen --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- if you go with the Deer Woman. If you look her in the eyes, bad things will happen. It's not very specific. And I like the idea of, you know, of privacy. Like, private damn -- not damnation, but like private punishment.
AM: Yeah. Like, we talked about a personal hell --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and, and the idea – like, if someone looks at you in your eyes and says bad things will happen, you know what that means? You know what I mean?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like, you, you know what's most important to you. You know what you fear the most.
JS: Yeah. There's an image that comes to your mind the moment someone's like, “Well, bad things will happen --
AM: Right.
JS: -- if you'd be out here.” Like --
AM: Oh, I'll fail all my – like – yeah. Yeah.
JS: Your brain goes something like, “I failed on my test.”
AM: Your brain will die. Yeah.
JS: I’ll crash my car. I'll get fired or something like that. Like, there's – there's --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- something for everyone that is a painful punishment.
AM: And I have talked about this before I think, but this is why I like audio so much. It’s because, when you describe things to people without a visual there to like predispose them to something or reading for example, you know, you picture, if someone says like, “She’s wearing her favorite coat,” like I know what my favorite coat looks like or, you know, she’s settled into her arm chair and whatever – put her feet up. Like, you picture you doing that yourself. And, so, I just really love that. Like it – I don't know. It helps me, like, imagine myself in stories. It helps me kind of immerse myself in it so much quicker. And I guess that works for your scary stuff also.
JS: Yeah. I mean that – it reminds me that everyone is their own individual person that has their own individual thoughts, which we don't think about enough as human beings I think. AM: Especially in history, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: It’s easy to say like, “Oh, you know, they did this or people thought that or, you know, society valued blank.”
JS: Right.
AM: And the fact is, like, it – people have always been people.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And culture has always been a lot richer than we, you know, think that it is in the retelling.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And this is, I think, a really good example of like, both of really specific myth, but also one that has lots of incarnations to a lot of different people.
JS: Yeah. And you bring a good point because history is such finite land. It is such a small land when looking at the world. It’s either like you are very zoomed out of the situation or you are very zoomed in, because you have one person’s personal accounts.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, it, it creates this sort of skewed concept of what, what “people thought” of –
AM: Right.
JS: -- like certain aspects. And that's, that's something I struggle with so much as a historian, someone who, you know, is reading these interpretations. Like, yeah, this is stories that this particular family or this particular indigenous culture passed down. How, how accurate that is? I don't know, because history is a long game of telephone.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it can get really frustrating at times, but it's also really, really interesting. And it's up to historians to kind of parse through all of the nonsense to figure that out. Okay. I guess we can make this assumption because enough people said it.
AM: I know, but also, like, is there even a value in the objective truth? Because, like, human experience is always subjective. Like, okay, yes, there's value to it. But, like, there is no – there is no objective reality. There is just like all of our realities that are happening simultaneously in, you know, 7 billion people's heads in this moment. You know, like, they're – like, yes, you – I think about this sometimes. Like, if you think back to, you know, described 2018 or described like the events of my lifetime, however long it will end up being. And I hope it’s very long. Fates. But, you know, we’ll describe events. Sure. And we’ll say, in this year, this happened. And, you know, this country, you know, came into being. And this one merged with a different one. But my experience of that – of, like, those events Monday not even touched my life. And the things that I talk about almost certainly won't be what, like, history book will talk about.
JS: Right.
AM: And I don't know. Like that, that was my life. That was my reality. I would talk about myself in the – in the past tense here, I guess. But, no, like, it – it’s just – that's why I love literature so much is it's, it's, you know, one person's story. And it doesn't even matter if the story is real or not. But it's, for a moment, like, disappearing into someone else's head, seeing the world through their eyes, and I think really good historical fiction, really moving first person accounts in history books, you know, folklore and documentation there and people telling stories and having their grandparents tell stories. Like, that is so much more powerful to me than reading a like, “Well, we put most stories together and most stories agree on these, you know, couple of facts.”
JS: Yeah. It's like, when you – when you get that really good first person thoughts or really good historical perspective, it's like everything else falls away.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it feels like – it feels like you feel. You know I mean?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because you're sitting there, and you're like, “Okay. I can imagine what the 1920’s felt like. But I can't imagine what I would be like there. I don't know what I would be thinking or what I would be doing or something like that. Until, you get that really distinct first person account.”
AM: Yeah. And that's another way in which, you know, injustice erases history, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: It’s that, like, only certain experiences are coded as valid.
JS: Right.
AM: And only certain ones are documented and passed along. And there are lots of ways in which, you know, stripping indigenous people of language and religion, and culture, and homes and schools, you know, removes the, like, natural passing along of these traditions that, you know, dominant society and white society got to keep.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, I, I am all for, like, bringing more, you know, of the stories in – into the light.
JS: Yeah, I agree. I guess, speaking of which, we can talk about a few other stories that are reminiscent of the Deer Woman.
AM: Ooh, I like it.
JS: The Deer Woman shows characteristics similar to some other creatures from around the world. And you know how much we love a good comparative cultural moment round up.
AM: Oh, I super do.
JS: So, arguably, the way that Deer Women are kind of portrayed as a sort of temptress, we can kind of compare them to sirens or succubi.
AM: Mhmm.
JS: Because they lure men through a certain form of sexual conduct. And then, once the men fall under the thrall, it usually leads to death.
AM: And there's like a true form that isn't the illusion that does the seducing, right?
JS: Right. So, sirens are part bird.
AM: Right.
JS: Succubi are, I guess, like some form of demon.
AM: Yeah. I was going to say it’s kind of demonic with the eyes change or like the mouth is more pointy than normal. You know, there’s some kind of --
JS: It’s the pointy mouth.
AM: Some kind of otherworldly pointed teeth in the mouth to be clear. But, yes, some kind of --
JS: No, no. I’m just picturing a really pointy mouth now. Thank you for that.
AM: You know, Allah has been beak. It’s just a – it’s just a beak.
JS: It happens.
AM: Yeah. Anyway. But there's – there's something off, you know, in, in so many of these versions of these myths.
JS: Yeah. And then, so, the Deer Woman arguably lures men with their beauty as well, similar to a succubi. Though there is more of a moral lesson and a warning given in regards to Deer Woman. I, I strongly believe that there's, like, this kind of moral compass that comes more so with the indigenous stories than with the, the succubi stories.
AM: Yeah. Succubi –
JS: The succubi stories are just kind of, like, don't – just don't have sex.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Just don't do it.
AM: Yeah. Succubi's story is, like, well, you found a woman desirable. Sorry. Bye.
JS: It sucks good. I know.
AM: Which, again, like is a form of impairment, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like, any – I mean the like sad fact is like so many sexual encounters for women and in death like, like that –
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- that is there. That risk is there. Like, going home with a stranger is so much more risky for women than it is for men.
JS: Right. And even more so women from disenfranchised groups.
AM: Yeah. Women of color. Indigenous women in particular. Like, the, the statistics that you shared earlier, like, are so striking. And, so, it is, in a way, a kind of like flipping of that narrative for the succubus or the siren to be, like, “Well, this one time you thought it was going to end one way, it ended a different way.”
JS: Yeah. And that's what all these stories that I've had to tell you are all that style. I love it
AM: Exactly. Exactly. And, like, you know, to be – I'm not like I don't think violence should beget violence. Like, I'm not a super fan --
JS: No, of course, not.
AM: -- of, like, you know, eye-for-an-eye type punishment. But, but, like, that is what stories are for.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Making people reexamine their perspective.
JS: Right.
AM: And, so, like the first time I saw on the internet somewhere, you know, men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them. Like, that, that is genuinely, like, I think put into perspective. The, the, like, unspoken way that we view the world --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- for me and for a lot of men I know. And, so, like that is what stories help us do. It’s to be like, “Oh, wow. Like, they cast into our view either through, like, negative example or through, you know, satire or whatever the things that we know, but don't speak about.”
JS: Yeah. And I think that's a reason that I tend to be drawn to these stories where the roles are flipped.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because it's so rare that's the case in real life. And I kind of want to bring attention to the fact that like, “Hey, there are instances where women are afraid that men are going to kill them.”
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, to have like mythology where it is the opposite, where, like, men could have an encounter with a woman where they fear for their lives too, like, I wouldn't – I don't want anyone to fear for their lives.
AM: Right. Perfect world men would ever do that.
JS: But, like --
AM: But --
JS: -- put yourself in, like, our shoes, put yourself, like, through that lens for a minute and understand that, like, it's not a supernatural occurrence for that, like, when the tables are turned.
AM: Yeah. What is, like, a funny thought experiment for one group is a lived reality for another.
JS: Yeah, for real. And I think that's kind of how a lot of these stories, you know, exist in the world.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And why there is such a common thing in a bunch of different cultures.
AM: And you know, we've had lots of new stories this week and in previous months about high profile men --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- having done a lot of kind of forms of sexual misconduct and a lot of very brave women coming out to, to share their stories. And one criticism that I have seen circulated by people, who I thought were kind of like-minded to me, is, you know, how, how was he supposed to know that she didn't consent or how, you know, is he supposed to know that this behavior is creepy.
JS: Ask. She'll say it.
AM: Ask?
JS: Ask.
AM: Or, also, like, half of the population has always spent their lives, like, trying to discern the motives of men --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- you know, and trying to be, like, “What’s his intention? What does he think?” Like, having to read the room, having so much of, like, the jobs that I've had in the past is, like, you know, scurrying and then kind of dealing with the feelings of male bosses. And, like, that – like having a kind of serving roles, subservient role, like, we interpret cues all the time.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, a lot of – I don't know. It’s that people are, like, finding it so objectionable and scary to think, “Well, people don't always just, like, come out and say what they mean. I have to be, you know, proactive, or defensive, or thoughtful, or, you know, look out for things that otherwise prefer – you know, prefer not to talk about or think about.
JS: Ugh!
AM: Like, yeah, yeah. You know, you do.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Buddy.
AM: All the time.
JS: Yeah. Okay. I’m just getting stressed out thinking about this.
AM: Right.
JS: We're gonna move on to another spirit that is similar to the Deer Woman. And that is the Fiura, which is a story native to Chile --
AM: Oh.
JS: -- which causes deformities in anyone that looks upon her. And she will cast spells to confuse young woodsmen to sleep with her.
AM: And she is like a woodland creature. Like, what is her --
JS: She’s like a woodland spirit.
AM: Wooh.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Wow. Which is, like, scary.
JS: Like, kind of – kind of vaguely witchy, but mostly spirit-ey --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- is the way that they describe her.
AM: And her effects sound like a kind of combo of Deer Woman and Medusa, you know. Like, kind –
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- of similar stories where one is, like, changes your life forever and one is, like, might end up very badly or might let you go.
JS: Yeah. I think that's, that's pretty much it. So, another story that comes out of Columbia actually is that of La Patasola, which translates to “one-footed.”
AM: Wooh.
JS: And she is a shapeshifter that takes the form of a beautiful woman to lure men with her cries of fear --
AM: Oh, no.
JS: -- when men – usually, they're working in her forest chopping down her trees. They come to find her. She drops the beautiful woman mask, and then slaughters them in order to protect her forest.
AM: Wow. So, like –
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- appealing to chivalry in a way or, like, a protective instinct. But, if she's a spirit related to forest or trees, like, she's going to protect what hers.
JS: Yeah, it's like her children.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It’s like a mama bear situation.
AM: Yeah, wow.
JS: Which I really, really like.
AM: I was interested in the fact that – I was thinking like the Deer Woman would have some kind of tie to natures specifically. But I think that's one of those ways in which, like, native spiritualties are so like immersed in and of and, like, inextricable from the environment that it's almost like that's the setting for everything. Instead of like so much of Western mythology is, like, in the forest, this happens. And, in like, you know, “society,” different things are the case.
JS: Which is interesting too because, if we look at the stories of the Deer Woman that I talked about, she's coming into indigenous culture rather than indigenous people having to go into nature in order to find her or to, to interact with her.
AM: Yeah. I mean, from my understanding, it is – it is so much like human life, you know, in, in native worldviews --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- is lived like in and of, and because of, and with, you know, the environment.
JS: Right.
AM: And, so, it's less like a thing that you journey to and from. And more like a thing that fuses your entire existence in context.
JS: Right, exactly. Look at how we feel when we talk about, like, nature in European folklore.
AM: Exactly.
JS: It's, it – like, the forest is something that you go into that you traverse through --
AM: Yeah, it’s contained.
JS: -- that you have to deal with.
AM: Scary.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You can, like, go home when you're done with it, and you leave it. And that, that is a very – like you know, conquering imperialistic kind of exploitative view of a thing that actually we all come from and will return too --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and live among.
JS: Yeah. I, I really like – that was a good point to bring up. I really appreciate that.
AM: I wonder, if in the future, there will be kind of similar thoughts around like micro biomes and microbes and germs and stuff. Like, so much of kind of futuristic literature is about, like nanobots, you know, and kind of all the ways in which – like, our body is so made up of other species of, of creatures. And that's a thing that we just haven't kind of reckoned with. But, in a world where, you know, nature, again becomes more, like, commodified or when nature is like receding, you know, sadly, because of human influence, like, in the world.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Maybe we'll kind of turn our mythologizing to internal worlds or to nanobots. Or, you know, like I just --
JS: Yeah.
AM: I don't know. I wonder if different scales of nature and the way that we write about space. Will we ever write about kind of things smaller than humans on the, like, you know, scale of factors of 10?
JS: No, but I think you bring up a good point. And that's why I really liked Jeff VanderMeer’s Southern – Southern Reach Trilogy.
AM: Yes.
JS: Because it’s the opposite of that. It is the nature becoming a invasive species rather than receding from human, human life.
AM: Yeah. It's not like a big thing that comes in from out of nowhere. It's like this small slow creep of, like, moss and decay.
JS: Mhmm.
AM: And it is so wonderful. It's so, like, rich and humid and scary and, like, such a different –I don’t know – such like a different face of a scary thing than I've ever encountered before.
JS: Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. In Brazil, there's the story of the Iara. who are beautiful warrior mermaids that charm men with their voices and beauties and either drown them or turn them into an Iara like themselves so that she can keep him as his – as her lover.
AM: Amazing. Carry on. No criticism.
JS: No criticism whatsoever. That is our Deer Woman stories. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the topic. I know we did do a lot of talking throughout the episode. But I'm, I'm curious to get your final thoughts on.
AM: Yeah. I think it is fascinating. It is so different. Like, the, you know, various versions of the story that we looked through, they're so different to what I expect. And I really love reading stories that surprised me because it reminds me of all the ways in which, you know, we have been socialized and taught to, you know, view life a certain way. And to – you know, like, certain stories are the templates we grew up with. You know, we think of ourselves as the protagonists in our own stories. And, you know, it's just a reminder that, like, all the kind of things that I think are true in the world and the things that surprised me, the things that I find, you know, predictable and relatable, like, those are all taught. And I think it's a really useful – a useful way to be like, “Yeah. Like, things that I think are really normal or natural or that I don't notice because I have the privilege not to notice them are, are taught to me by society. And, you know, all of us that grew up that way, like, have a duty to unlearn all the racism that you grew up in.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, people that grow up male have a duty to unlearn misogyny. People, who are straight, have a duty to unlearn homophobia. Like, you know, this goes all the way from ableism to ageism to, you know, all kinds of like Western centric whatever the perspective is. You know, you are raised in some kind of perspective. No one is raised objectively. And it's not like a punishment. It's an exciting opportunity, if you wanna view it that way, to view the world more richly and empathetically.
JS: Yeah. And I think that it's, it's always – it's always the right time to spend time educating yourself. And, if you are born in a – like, non-advantageous thing, it's not your job to educate other people.
AM: Yes.
JS: In the case of, like, the Deer Woman, it’s not out there educating you about how your sexuality can be a problem. And they shouldn't because they're, they're in a position where they don't have to do that thing. You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I said an example of how there is no, like, Native American experience on American mythology.
JS: Right.
AM: And, like, it's an opportunity to, you know, view this huge group of people as way more diverse and, you know – I don’t know – multifaceted than we thought.
JS: I, I’m really glad that I was able to do this episode. I'm glad that there were resources out there of indigenous people giving first person sources because, you know, as a white woman, I don't wanna be reading a white man's perspective on, you know, Cherokee or Sioux stories and lumping them all together.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's, that's not what I was looking for when I was doing this research. And I feel as though getting those indigenous sources was extremely important. And I feel – I feel like – not that I've connected with the story, but I feel as though I’ve – I’ve given the right perspective when, when talking about this, I didn't want to be talking about my experience. I want to be talking about the experience of the indigenous people when talking about indigenous story.
AM: Yeah. And we can – I think you did a really good job doing that. And we can, you know, endeavor to understand a story in its proper context --
JS: Mhmm.
AM: -- and from proper sources.
JS: Yeah.
AM: At the – at the same time say, you know, draw parallels or discuss, you know, what it's – I don't know – what our thoughts are or what it brings up in us while respecting that boundary.
JS: Right.
AM: And realizing that, you know, it's not – it's not my story to make a center of my life --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- or to presume that I understand it enough to – I don't know – to make it the same as like Irish changeling myths are to me. But I am – I'm really grateful for the – for the kind of reminder of the importance of first person stories, the importance of storytelling and documentation, and that, you know, Native American society is way more multifaceted and older and living and dynamic --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- than we are led to believe. And I would love – if folks wanted to check out more of that historical database that you talked about earlier, we're gonna put those links in the description.
JS: Yep, we will. And I just thank you for listening. If you have perspectives, if you are an indigenous person yourself and would like to talk to us about these topics, we would love to hear from you.
AM: Yeah. We are so open to emails, to guest appearances. We would love to explore regions that aren't our own through, you know, the voices of people that actually have a stake in the game.
JS: Yeah. That's actually one of our goals for 2018.
AM: It is.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And we would love your help. So, if you know someone, if you have a favorite scholar of these topics, if you have a friend, a grandma, you know, a relative yourself who you think would be really great and tell a great story, please let us know.
JS: Yeah. And, remember, stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @spiritspodcast. We also have all our episodes collaborations and guest appearances plus merch on our website spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes stuff, throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, director’s commentaries and patron-only live streams
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share this with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil