Episode 234: Sirens and Black Voices (with Bethany C. Morrow)
/We’re joined this week to talk with author Bethany C. Morrow about her novels, using “speculative” fiction to tell the truth, how Black sisterhood is lifesaving, and decentralizing fantasy and mythology.
A Song Below Water spoilers from 54:33 to 57:02.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of racism, violence against women, doxing, inciting violence, white supremacy, ableism, self-harm, transphobia, QAnon, doctors/medical treatment, medical racism, death, homelessness, imprisonment/the prison industrial complex, stereotypes, respectability politics, and slavery.
Guest
Bethany C Morrow is an Indie Bestselling author who writes for adult and young adult audiences, in genres ranging from speculative literary to contemporary fantasy to historical. She is author of the novels MEM and A SONG BELOW WATER, and editor/contributor to the young adult anthology TAKE THE MIC, which was the 2020 ILA Social Justice in Literature award winner. Her work has been chosen as Indies Introduce and Indie Next picks, and featured in The LA Times, Forbes, Bustle, Buzzfeed, and more. She is included on USA TODAY’s list of 100 Black novelists and fiction writers you should read. Her upcoming releases include A CHORUS RISES (June 2021), SO MANY BEGINNINGS: A Little Women Remix (September 2021), and CHERISH FARRAH (2022).
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends the podcast Hey Riddle Riddle.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
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Transcript
Julia: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Julia. Amanda is on a well-deserved vacation right now. And this is Episode 234: Sirens and Black Voices with Bethany C. Morrow. You might remember that I recommended Bethany C. Morrow’s novel, A Song Below Water, last year. And I am so excited that we get to talk to her about the mythology of her world and how it reflects the world that we live in. But, before we get to that, we got to be grateful for the people in our world that make our podcast reality, our patrons. So, thank you to our supporting producer level patrons; Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi, as well as our legend level patrons; Audra, Chimera or Change, Clara, Drew, Jack Marie, Jaybaybay, Ki, Lada, Morgan, Necroroyalty, Taylor, and Bea Me Up Scotty. I am incredibly grateful to all of these people who help us get to do our dream job because making this podcast for you really is my dream job. I'm also really grateful for my recommendation this week, which is the podcast Hey, Riddle Riddle. You know when sometimes your brain just doesn't want to work real well and you kind of keep revisiting something that makes you happy and makes you laugh over and over and over again no matter how many times it listen to it, that's to me with Hey Riddle Riddle. Gosh, it's so funny. It is a improvisational podcast that is also about solving riddles, but also so much more. And it brings me such joy. And, if you like our podcast or any of the podcasts that are a part of Multitude and would like to show the world how much you like those shows, maybe you could rep us on your body, or on your water bottle, or on your notebook by buying merch from our merch store. Go to multitude.production/merch to pick up some cool and Multitudey-type merch today. I'm really partial to several of our enamel pins that are available. And, also, I'm a big fan of stickers. So, if you like those things, definitely go check it out. That's multitude.productions/merch. And I think that's it. So, please enjoy Spirits Episode 234: Sirens and Black Voices with Bethany C. Morrow.
Intro Music
Amanda: We are so excited to welcome an author we've recommended on the show before who has a fantastic new book coming out and who everybody who listens to this show would love. It's Bethany C. Morrow. Welcome to the show.
Bethany: Thank you so much for having me.
Julia: It's our pleasure. I'm so excited. I was just rereading A Song Below Water and I was – ah, just – it's so good. I, I recommended it a couple months back as one of our recommendations. And it's been such a pleasure to reread it. You know what I mean?
Bethany: Oh, that’s so good.
Julia: So, thank you – thank you for joining us. And I'm so excited about your new project.
Bethany: Oh, thank you. So, I’m, I'm actually – you know, as an author, I'm sort of a couple of books ahead of the timeline.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: So, I just got an edit letter for a book that comes out in 2022.
Julia: Wooh.
Bethany: And I'm like, “That's not the book that we're talking about. Let’s go back in time.”
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: [Chuckles] I know – I know that feeling. Juggling a bunch of stuff is always a challenge. But it's—
Bethany: Yeah.
Julia: It's somewhat thrilling to be like, “Well, that one's mostly done.”
Bethany: Right.
Julia: And it will be released and we can kind of put our eyes to the future.
Bethany: Yeah. But, but, at the same time, have events that you're like, “What book are we talking about?”
Julia: Oh, yes, that one. Great.
Amanda: That was three years ago. [Chuckles]
Bethany: Just make sure that I'm talking about the right book, I have actually gone someplace. And they asked me a question. And I started talking about Mem. And they were like, “That sounds amazing.” So, can you tell us about A Song Below – and I'm like, “Okay. So, this is the – this is a different audience. All right.”
Julia: Right. Got it. Got it. Forgot which one we’re talking about today.
Amanda: For anyone who hasn't read your books yet, would you mind just giving us a brief introduction to who you are and what kind of stuff you write?
Bethany: Yes. So, my name is Bethany C. Morrow. I always say that I am a recovering expat. That's kind of like forcibly been true this past year. I am living on the border of New York and Quebec after spending – I've been in this area for over a decade at this point and most of that has been spent in Montreal, which brings me to my first release, which was in 2018. It's an adult speculative literary novel called Mem. It was set in an alternate 1920s Montreal. At the time, if you said, what do I write, I would have just said speculative literary fiction because that's usually what it has been. And then, of course, A Song Below Water happened, which is contemporary fantasy. And I really – at this point, I think I constantly use a speculative element or something that functions very much like a speculative element. So, I would say that what I write has more to do with interrogating and indicting American history, American present, American imagination, obviously, from the perspective of a Black American woman and what it means to be a Black American woman in this place with what has been done and what continues to happen. So, whether the historical is such untaught history that it reads like speculative or whether it's a social horror, which is what is coming out in 2022, which, again, is so focusing and indicting of the White liberalism that I face in this country that it feels, again, speculative as a Black American woman most of my reality – what is reality. But because it can be chosen or put aside by other people, it will read many times like speculative. It does not fit the curated reality that is being presented.
Amanda: That's fascinating.
Julia: That's, yeah, wonderful.
Amanda: This is totally a tangent. And we don't have to go into it if it's, like, depressing to, to revisit. But how have this sort of like genre terms of publishing? Like, have you had to sort of problematize or redefine them in selling books to people?
Bethany: Well, I have said I don't really care where you're gonna put this in a bookstore up until the point where it becomes, “Well, do we have a genre convention and a genre expectation?” And most of that, of course, was “decided or, or canonized” without any consideration for the different ways to tell a story and the different ways the cultures have of telling stories. So, it pretty much tries – it tries to come off as a very intellectual sort of like, “Well, this is because it's marketing and this is a business.” But, really, what it is, is you have lionized one Eurocentric White American way of telling stories. And you're trying to force all of us to stay within those parameters. So, you can call my book, for the most part, as long as it's somewhat – you know, as long as it's somewhat accurate, you can call my book any number of things as long as you don't claim that I failed at the thing I wasn't trying to do. And, so, for my 2022 novel, Cherish Farrah, that is going to come up. I didn't feel like there existed a genre because, as far as I'm concerned, it’s social horror. Obviously, there's no social horror part of the bookstore at this point.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Bethany: But that's what it is. So, part of being a Black woman in publishing is building the runway I'm actually trying to use.
Julia: And I, I think we haven't touched on your, your social horror stuff yet, but I really do think that you are creating something really new and exciting with your books and especially just because I've read it recently, A Song Below Water.
Bethany: Yeah, thank you.
Julia: Of course, would you mind giving us kind of like a spoiler free description of A Song Below Water before I start asking you a bunch of questions just so I can keep our audience in the loop—
Bethany: Yes.
Julia: —about what we're gonna be talking about.
Bethany: So, A Song Below Water is contemporary fantasy. As I mentioned, it takes place in sort of an alternate Portland, except that it's actually – you know, I'm using again speculative to demonstrate the reality of, of, you know, being in Portland as a Black American. But it's about an alternate Portland in which magic exists, magical creatures exist. One of those creatures is a siren. And, in this world, only Black women are sirens, which, of course, means that that power and that magic is disallowed and is oppressed intentionally and silenced. But there are many other types of magical creatures. It's not magic that's disallowed. It's just a magic particular to us. And, so, our main – one of our two main characters is named Tavia. And she is a young Black girl who knows that she is a siren. And that is a fact that has to be hidden for her safety and for the safety of her family. She has a sister friend named Effie, who is becoming something. And she doesn't know what it is. She cosplays a mermaid at the Renaissance Fair. And that is a very big part of her identity. But, when she realizes that something is really happening with her, it sort of takes her on a journey of both dealing with her past, reckoning with this very traumatic incident that happened to her as a child, the loss of her mother, which is actually something additional, and her relationship with Tavia and the way that Black sisterhood is lifesaving and is basically the foundation on which they, you know, proceed through not only the world but their interior struggles.
Julia: As a side note, I really enjoyed the inclusion of the Renaissance Fair—
Bethany: Yeah.
Julia: —and just the depiction of it. I have a lot of friends who are like either associated with or have worked in Renaissance Fairs before. So, it was just like a nice little – like, it really endeared me to Effie very early on. So—
Bethany: Yeah.
Julia: But one of the things that I really loved about the book was the way you kind of aligned classical mythology with real world dynamics and experiences, especially for, like, Black and Indigenous people and the disproportionate violence that they face.
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: So, something that we really love talking about on this show is how, in particularly, women aligned “monsters” are treated in mythology—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: —and then, like, reiterations of that throughout culture. And I really do think you did a wonderful job taking the siren and kind of applying that to real world situations. So, do you think you could speak on that a little bit more just because it was such an enjoyable and really, like, eye opening part of the, the novel?
Bethany: Well, I've talked about where the genesis of this book happened. And it was on Twitter watching a Black woman be dragged and then later doxed. And, and it wasn't because it was that particular person. It was because this is a – this is just a reality of existing as a Black woman in any space that the expression of her opinion was – and, you know, it was powerful enough to incite all of this violence and, and all of this vitriol. And, at the same time, part of the message for every single person taking part in the dogpile was to try to tell her that she didn't matter, she should die, all this different stuff. I said to my sister my voice has power because it was obvious the, the power was not in question. There's no question of how powerful my voice is. Clearly, the problem is you thinking you had broken it, or you thinking you had silenced it, or are you thinking you had successfully taken it and just being very just confounded by the resilience and the refusal of Black American women to stop existing. So, I came to sirens entirely from that point. Now, we're all saturated in very, again, Eurocentric and, and, in this case, really, you know, Mediterranean centric but, as long as you just, like, completely whitewash all of the Mediterranean.
Amanda: Just the North half. Just the North half is what counts in “classical mythology.” Yeah.
Bethany: Just exactly. Like, let's, let's not deal with, like, what people in this area actually looked like or how they would have actually been treated. But let's just pretend that now Western Europe. Again, my, my imagination – and none of our imaginations appear in a vacuum. It's absolutely impressed upon by all of the things that we are – that we are taught and all the things that are forced upon us. But, for me, I 100 percent decentralized mythology and fantasy from Europe and, and from sort of the academic approach that, that I have experienced in my education and just in, in entertainment event. I didn't make any attempt to write reconcile what I was saying about sirens with what has been presented about sirens. I didn't make any attempt to extrapolate further and come up with a whole order. It – to me, it was like this is – this is common sense. Black women's voices are powerful. That power – that power is disallowed. That's it. So, Black women are sirens. It's, it's, actually, really – and, again, I say this about speculative fiction. And, so, I’m part of a very proud tradition of Black American writers who specifically use speculative elements not to tell a fantasy but to tell the truth. People are one of two minds about A Song Below Water. They're either like, “I felt like they needed more world building.” And I'm like, “It's in your world. You just don't want to accept that.”
Amanda; Oh, boy.
Bethany: Or they will say like, “Oh, the world building is so–” and I'm like I'm, as – again, I'm always gonna be saying this because I think it's extremely important that people understand. If you do not understand that this is something that I have had to, you will not understand the work that had to actually go into this book if you don't realize that anything I write requires world building because my actual reality is treated like fiction.
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: So, the world building that goes into this book is not to build a new world. It is to get you to understand the world you live in.
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: That's what I'm using mythology to do in this book.
Julia: And you do a wonderful job in it. I, I am recalling a section where you talk about how there hasn't been a record of a non-Black siren since the Second World War. You talk about siren’s roles in the civil rights movement and the, like, White perspective of, “Oh, the sirens would have made things worse—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: —if they had, like, had an active role in it,” which I thought was a wonderful insight in, in that. And it doesn't require you to do a lot of world building because all of that bias is already there as part of, like, learning about history in the United States Education System.
Bethany: Right. And the, the way that it is still a craft issue is that, if you have ingested only White centric, you know, and, and, again, White characters or non-White characters as written by White authors, your palate is limited. But, also, your ability to digest is limited. There is something that I talk about constantly. White people should be the first people trying to eradicate and trying to dismantle white supremacy if they understood the reductive power of it in their life, if they understood the arrested development it results in for White people in particular. The inability to understand anything that does not center them. The inability to accept actual observable reality. If you're born anything else in this country, you have to be fluent in multiple languages from birth. You have to – before you even go to preschool, you have to understand implicitly what it is to code switch, who, what it is to have a different culture at home than you have in the school setting. That there are rules that apply to you that don't apply to other people. This is a complexity that exists only for non-White people groups. And I’m including White women in that because a lot of times people want to act like there's some great separation there. I think that, when people say, “Oh, was there world building?” Or, or, on a craft level, our, our non-White authors, we’re doing more craft work because I have to teach you how to eat what I'm feeding you. I have to teach you to see the world you literally live in. All of that is on top of the story that I'm writing. And my book is not to non-Black girls because the book – I mean that's who my target audience is.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: But a lot of times what people don't understand is I have to do that world building even for my target audience because they have ingested the exact same socialization. Now – whereas that will result in self-loathing or, or self-esteem issues, or, or identity crises. For us, at the end of the day, it's the same diet. I am – you know, if I don't intentionally purge that for myself, if I'm not just born immune to poison, which is basically how I describe myself, I would also be confused by the presence or the – you know, by a realistic presence of non-White people in a story. I would also feel like, “Oh, I'm noticing every single non-White person,” which wouldn't happen when I was watching something that was entirely populated by White people, regardless of the fact that that's not realistic. So, I'm doing that craft work not to cater to White readers, but because I realized the detriment of what is done also impacts my target audience. I have to also show them I am acknowledging and edifying the reality that you are familiar with. You are not the one lying. You are not the one misunderstanding.
Amanda: It's amazing.
Julia: Absolutely. It is amazing. And I, I kind of did notice that as I was reading the book, in particular, with Tavia’s kind of inexperience with the history of sirens. At one point, she says – and don't mind if I quote you with you for a second.
Bethany: [Laughs]
Julia: But the problem with mythos is that it varies too much for any one interpretation to be believed. And then, later, nobody believes mythos, but they never forget it either. So—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: Which is very true of mythology, of course, but also the way that a lot of younger generations can be kind of separated from their own durations—
Bethany: Right.
Julia: —and background.
Bethany: Right.
Julia: So, I really, really appreciated that focus.
Bethany: Thank you.
Midroll Music
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Transition Music
Julia: Trying to keep my questions as spoiler free as possible, I really, really loved the, the use of Tavia and Effie’s ASL as a way of communication—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: —especially when, like, Tavia is afraid of using her voice. Effie uses it when she's doing her, her mermaid productions and underwater so that they can communicate that way. Can you talk a little bit about that choice? Because it seems like such a natural option, but it's not something that I've ever really seen in modern fantasy before.
Bethany: I had a fixation with ASL from a really young age. And, even though I went to, like, special schools, I wasn't able to learn it or take it because I didn't have a disability myself that required it or I didn't have a family member – an immediate family member who, who needed me to be able to speak ASL. And I, again, being a weird person from birth, basically, was like, “Is anybody noticing this?” Like, you're telling me that this thing that is a beautiful language but also is a necessity if I'm going to communicate with an entire swath of my country people is inaccessible to me because I don't have the same identity. Like, that is – you're basically telling me that it is perfectly okay to completely carve out this entire population. And it's totally fine that – I mean I have a child. And, when, when anybody has a toddler, very, very simple ASL is a totally normal part of communicating with your toddler. So, everybody, at some point – I mean everybody that I know, at least, does a little bit of ASL with their kids. And then, as soon as the child is able to verbalize, you just stopped doing it. And I'm like, “Okay. You're literally telling your child there are people in your same nation, of your same heritage, of your same culture who I don't think it's important for you to be able to communicate with.” And I just have always thought that that is such a strange and just – I mean there's other ableism, like, talked about or, or referenced in the book. Like giants, for instance, we talk about there's no special conflict or anything that happened with giants. They just are pretty much reclusive. But, obviously, observably, the world that we have created does not allow for the presence of giants. We built things to our average height. We – you know what I mean?
Amanda: Mhmm.
Bethany: So, it's – there's an entire population in the book that you just don't get to know very much about because we didn't make any space for them. And, again, as somebody with an invisible disability, it was very important to me to deal with the fact that you're writing people off and erasing them from – they are literally from this culture. They are literally from this place and they 100 percent do not exist in it. And that's a choice. And everybody seems okay with it. And it's confusing to me. [Chuckles]
Julia: Yeah. No.
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: I wanted to be able to, to speak ASL as a child. I looked for it multiple times and was not allowed because I did not have that disability. And I just think that that's completely absurd. So, with ASL in the book, I also wanted to – I didn't want them both to have the same entry point to it.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: Because it is also just a secondary language. It's also a beautiful language on its own. So, I wanted Effie’s introduction to it to be purely whimsical and purely the same way any of us would learn a second language and think is beautiful. And there's very little else that goes into it, other than an appreciation for something that allows me to communicate with people. Whereas Tavia’s story is a passing story. And, again, as a Black American, I have passing stories in my history, in my family lineage. It is not something you do if you don't have to. I don't know where stories of people passing to get a good job come in because, if you're found out, you're gonna die.
Amanda: It's more precarious and not less.
Bethany: Exactly. I'm like it's, it absolutely was a life or death choice. And, so, Tavia’s experience with ASL was literally a passing choice. It was – you know, my parents came up with one explanation for what's going on with me. And I rebuke that. I refuse that. And, so, I'm going to find something that allows me to decide my cover story. Basically, it allows me to decide how I'm going to survive in this world. And it's not gonna be that I tried to hurt myself. And that's also why her decision about whether to continue relying on ASL is different from – you don't see that same question come up with Effie, like I said, because it was always just about this is a beautiful language that I know. So, I wanted their experience of that to be completely different. I do have a regret that I – again, with my blind spot – was not able to see. When I was writing the book, there's a point at which one of them refers to it as gesturing. And I have gotten so much feedback from people in the deaf or hard of hearing community or simply people who are practitioners or teachers of ASL. And nine out of 10 of them are, “I can't believe this was in a book at all. Like, I can't believe there was ASL in a book at all.”
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Yeah.
Bethany: But one of them said – and they almost said it apologetically, which just breaks my heart because we're so used to being grateful for crumbs that we feel like we don't have a right to say, “But here's a part that actually kind of hurt me.” And they brought up the use of the, the word gesturing. And I, of course, did not have any idea and really regret, of course, that that was part of their experience. Because, you know, that is – that's what happens when we don't have access and we – and we aren't taught from a very young age that, “This is part of your community. You need to learn how to operate in a way that is inclusive of them and is compassionate toward them.” And, so, having to – you know, there's a couple of things. Again, there was something that someone pointed out to me. And they did not have to do this. This is effort on their own part.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Bethany: And it's a burden on their own part. I know that very well as a Black woman. But someone was reading the book and came across the use of a word that was actually put in so as to avoid saying something that is culturally insensitive to indigenous people, which people use a lot to basically speak of my soulmate. And, at the time of writing the book in 2017, it was like, oh, I'll use this other thing that everybody's very familiar with so you know that I'm talking about like, oh, this is my soulmate, or this is something I can't do without, or this is something that is part of my identity, or, or demonstrates my identity. But, in using it, because of everything that's happened after and everything that that author associated has done, it caused the person reading it to wonder whether I was – what my stance was on their—
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: —on their situation. And, so, they direct messaged me to say like, “I was loving this book. And I was having such a wonderful time reading it. And then I kind of got this kick in the gut. And I'm so sorry, but, now, I'm wondering what do you think about trans rights? And what is your stance on–” and then, apparently, before I could respond, they had gone through my Twitter feed and found some, you know, pro trans rights stuff. And they were like, “Okay. I, I got my answer. I'm so sorry.” And I'm like, no, I had not even remembered that I put this word in. And, obviously, I'm going to ask for it to be taken out of the paperback because you shouldn't – who should have that experience of reading something and enjoying something and then being reminded I don't have to worry about what your experience is. I don't have to worry about the questions that – who should have their, their identity or their right to be questioned while reading a book. I fought for my son to not have to read To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't want Black kids to have to read Huck Finn. I don't want you to be reading something that people are declaring is this wonderful piece of literature and, also, you're gonna get to a part – and I talked about this in the book with, with cultural competence, right? Where you get to a part where there's a dog whistle that only you can identify. And, therefore, you have an experience that is completely different to everyone else. And, now, not only are you hurt and harmed, but you're isolated by the fact that, “Does anybody even know that this is not okay to do to me? Or, you know, and do I–“ and then you, you have to reckon with, “Okay. Am I gonna – do I say something? Do I – is it wrong of me to expect people to know this?” And I was so grateful that this person reached out to me, but I was also so sorry—
Amanda: Mhmm.
Bethany: —that they had to make that decision in the first place.
Julia: Absolutely. And I mean I understand that completely. And I think a lot of people, instead of going the route that you went, will get defensive when someone brings that up. They're like, “Oh, of course, you had to have known that I wrote that before this person said all these horrible things.”
Bethany: Right. But it doesn't matter because the person read it when they read it.
Julia: Exactly.
Bethany: They read it when they read it and it – and the thing about putting something in print is you're responsible. You're responsible for that. And maybe you can't foresee the life of a book, but you have to, at least, understand the weight of the fact that books have long shelf lives.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: And I think that's a place that a lot of people should be coming from instead.
Bethany: Oh, 100 percent. And it, it absolutely – I, I can't undo the – the biggest issue is I can't undo what it was like to first see that. But the very least I can do is tell this person I will take – I will make sure this is taken out.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: It seems so obvious to me that language can either affirm, recognize, invite people in—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —or at, minimum, not harm them.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: Or it can harm them.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: I think a lot of people, particularly, White people, particularly, White liberal people are so uncomfortable the first time that you are called on, which, somehow, miraculously, because society set up that way, like, can be in your full adulthood.
Bethany: Right. Like that, in itself, is an issue, right? Like—
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: It is. I mean that is – that is – it should be a fantasy.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: Like, it's – for every other person, it is a fantasy. And, so, that's why I so appreciate, you know, you kind of pointing out. Like, every time that, you know, I read something that I don't have to work to understand, it's because it was written for me.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: And – or it was written from somebody from a perspective where they don't have to question those things.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: Like, someone can write a 200-word Sci-fi piece and I get the full picture because it is a genre that has been, you know, for the most part, dominated by people who have the same cultural references as me—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —and are writing for me and not anybody else. It should be – I don't know. I am – I am grateful every time I get the opportunity to see things from a new perspective, to recognize an assumption that I didn't even realize was an assumption—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —or a choice that I didn't realize was a choice. And that – I don’t know. That, to me, is like – that's a beautiful outcome of reading something. And I – you know, I'm, I’m sorry for people who inevitably probably criticize you for using that tool and giving us that opportunity.
Bethany: Yeah, it's definitely interesting. If you're an introspective person on any level, it is very interesting to see that it's not just people. It's people who've been taught that the world changes for them. They don't change for the world. And, if you don't understand that that is literally what white supremacy teaches, you'll be shocked by things like – sorry to mention this – but things like QAnon. You have to understand the full harm of this institution our country is built on if you are taught what does it mean – what are – what is the natural and, like, most logical conclusion of honestly believing the world was meant to change for you. You don't have to change at all. Like, that – you will destroy yourself. It eats itself, but, because of who I am – and this isn't to say that every marginalized person just naturally does this or doesn't feel defensiveness. But I would be aghast at myself as a Black woman if someone said, “Hey, this happened. And, unless you intended to hurt me, I feel like you should do something different.” I just – I don't feel like that should be a shocking experience. I don't feel that I – if I'm not – if I don't have that lived experience, they shouldn't have to tell me. But, if they take the time to tell me, unless you were trying to hurt the person what – like—
Julia: And you shouldn't be. Let's be real.
Amanda: Yeah, exactly.
Bethany: I don't know. It's, it's, it is very – it’s a – it was upsetting to me because then it was like, “Okay. This is actually where we very much understand each other as I completely understood their expectation that, like, I probably shouldn't have said anything.”
Amanda: Yeah, exactly. And, for people who are shocked that the government could fail you—
Bethany: Oh, gosh.
Amanda: —or have the ability to help you—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —and don't.
Bethany: That, that happens to me about my disability as well. It's amazing how myopic we are trained to be, particularly, in the United States, particularly, in the West. But, when, if, if I'm – if some – if I'm having a crisis or something, it, it, I talk about my invisible disability on Twitter not like it's my journal, but, literally, to normalize talking about my invisible disability and to, hopefully, if possible, give language to someone who didn't know how to respond when someone said this to them. And that's very similar to what I do when I'm writing young adult fiction as I'm trying to give language to someone who is at the point where they're experiencing this. It doesn't mean they're at the developmental point to be able to parse it in real time and be able to decide how they want to best respond. So, inevitably, you know, talking about my invisible disability on, on Twitter and someone will be like, “Have you tried such and such?” And I'm like, “See, you're coming from the perspective that everything has a solution.”
Amanda: God, that blows.
Bethany: You’re, you're coming from the perspective of, like, well, please or I – and my dad even did this to me on Twitter.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Bethany: And I literally was like, “You did it on Twitter. So, I'm gonna answer your Twitter, dad. You know how I am.” But I'm like your expectation that going to the hospital or going to see a doctor would fix what, A, couldn't possibly be fixed by a culture that doesn't prioritize it because they don't experience it. I have a sickle trait disorder. So, unless you're Black or Jewish, you don't have it, which means that I've been told it's 10 different things between the time it first came up when I was 17 and now. I was told I was faking for a really long time. I was told I was lazy for a really long time.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: So, you're telling me to go to the people who have not devoted any money to research, have not devoted any money to, like – or time or energy to understanding even what it is. You're saying I'll feel better if I go talk to them. What? Like, just that idea – just that idea that, that this thing over here can fix it means you have never had an ailment that can't be fixed. That's what you're telling me.
Julia: Yeah, I feel like, recently, I saw something on Twitter. It was like, “Is it a rare disease or you just don't care about the people who have it? So, I was like, “Oh, yeah.”
Bethany: Right. Exactly. How, how rare can this really be?
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: It's extremely common in Black Americans. And, and it's also varied among Black Americans. So, I have a girlfriend, L.L. McKinney, who is another author who also struggles with it. And she has sometimes very different experiences with it. She's, you know, had a lot more necessity required that she had a lot more medical intervention at different points than I did. So, I'm like, even among us, there's so much. So – but why, why, why would you think that me going to a doctor was gonna make me feel better? Like, it's just that idea that this is – these are the solutions. These are our institutions. These are our gods. It applies to everyone or you're lying. And I'm like, “Hmm. Well.”
Julia: There has to be other options.
Bethany: Right. Listening to me could be one of them since I've experienced it.
Amanda: And then too, like, it is a choice for us to make things hard for disabled people really.
Bethany: Mhmm. Yes.
Amanda: Like, we, you know, in terms of like able-bodied dominant society, like, defines what is ability and what is not defined—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —what is expected of people and what is not and just doesn't care if you, you know, don't make the cut or if you need intervention.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: And, yet, certain kinds of intervention we think are completely justified and great. And, you know, it's just it is – it is a choice. And we are choosing every day to make things hard and accessible.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: It's – especially, I think, for people who assume that society should change to fit them—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —and are used to that happening. Like, that – it just it seems to me so hypocritical, that that isn't, like, a logical leap that you make.
Bethany: I think my thing is I am enamored and not in a good way. I'm sort of obsessed with how and when the United States stopped having citizens and started having consumers.
Amanda: Hmm.
Bethany: I'm kind of shocked by living in a country that has no – it really has no citizenry. It really has no – we're a bunch of – if anything, we're a bunch of states. But, even at the state level, it's, it’s like being on different teams. It's like, “Oh, I root for – this is my team. So, I root for this team.” But, in terms of actually feeling like I have country people, like, this is my country person. This is someone that – I don't know – that my heart goes out to, that I have a, an attachment to, that – and I say this as an expat. I don't feel as American as when I'm outside of the country because other countries, you know, that's how they identify me as like, “Oh, she's American.” So, they will see me as much more American as fellow Americans do. But it's, it, that has always – even since I was a kid, I was so confused because you will hear in our – and I think I was always sort of like interrogating the difference between my lived experience and observed social interactions versus the very strong and almost like wartime, like, imagery of our national anthem and patriotic songs and things. And I was like, “If you wanted me to buy into this, why would you make it so wildly inaccurate?”
Julia: Yeah.
Bethany: Like, the we – this land is your land. This land is my land. And I think he’s from California. And I used to know the songs. I went to private schools. And I – and, so, it was really because they taught me the songs that I was like, “Oh, you're liars. Got it?”
Julia: [Chuckles]
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: No, because that's never been the case. Like, how do you—
Julia: Yeah. Yeah.
Bethany: You don't care how many of your country people die if they're disabled. You don't care about making sure – your first thought isn't for the homeless population. Your first thought is for whoever has the most money already. So, like, that's been – and I don't know what's wrong with me that I – that it just doesn't become normal at some point. That was always a very strange thing to me. Like, I don’t – I can't have national pride because there is no national camaraderie. There is no like, “Oh, we care so much about our country people that we don't have to be told to take care of them.” No one has to incentivize protecting the disenfranchised and giving them – I don't know – health insurance. Like, no one would have to incentivize that for me. Why would you – why would you need an incentive to do that if you truly believe these were your country people. So – and I saw that White people did it to White people. Like – so, even as a Black American, it was like, “Oh, it's not – it's literally that you don't care about anybody.” Like, white supremacy doesn't care about anybody. It cares about—
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: —our conglomeration, and, and financial power, and wealth capital. Like, that's it. It doesn't actually care about individual people. And I thought, as I was getting older, like, well, surely, people – everybody's gonna realize this at some point and they're gonna be like, “Oh, this doesn't care about me either. So, I should divest from it.” But the promise is always, if we get rid of these other non-White people, if we get rid of these disenfranchised people, then you'll get a bigger piece of the pie. And, then people are willing to buy into that, apparently, for centuries. I was just always confused by that. I wanted – I wanted to have a network like A Song Below Water. Like – and I find that where I see that in reality is Black sisterhood. That's where I see it doesn't matter if I know you. It doesn't matter what part of the country you're from. That's not to say everybody is perfect. It just means that, by and large, my experience with Black women has been, “I'm gonna check on you. I'm gonna make sure you're okay. I'm gonna see if you need something. I'm gonna–” You know, it's just that’s, that's the only place that I have really experienced the camaraderie that I wish was real on a national level, on a state level. Just – you know, I just wish that that was really – I wish America was as determined to be those songs as it is for you to stand during those songs.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah, they make us repeat it because it is a myth.
Bethany: Right. And that's the thing about A Song Below Water. It’s about the mythology of mythology. It's about the fact that none of this has to be true and it can constantly be changing as long as you are the right group. Your mythology can change rapidly and repeatedly. And we can change it for you. And we'll all agree to this new mythology as long as you're the right people group. Yeah, I, I would say, when I dealt with mythology in this book, it's not that I was dealing with established mythology. I think I was dealing more with the sociology of mythology.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: What I do with mythology and through mythology and how you can see yourself so wildly inaccurately and, and not – I don't know – have a brain bend.
Julia: In referring to the fact that, you know, sirens in your book are exclusively Black women, you said, “Now that it's just us, Black women, the romance is dead. Instead of inspiring songs and stories, now, our calls inspire defensive anger. Our power is not enchanting or endearing anymore. It offends,” which I like. That was such a—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: It really goes with what you just said there. And I—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: Really, that was one of the lines that really stood out to me, especially in my reread. So, yeah.
Bethany: I love that you’ve reread it already. It's only been out since June.
Julia: Listen, I read it in June and I read it again. We were like, “Oh, we're getting Bethany on. Great. Let reread.”
Bethany: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. Society does not try to silence people who are powerless or, like, people – or, or—
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: —they make powerless people who they know can’t have power.
Bethany: Exactly.
Amanda: —[Inaudible 37:42] just power or would have power.
Bethany: And, and then they use entertainment. Again, this goes into, like, the sociology of, of entertainment. That something that use entertainment to try to get those people groups not to identify their own power because that is a lot—
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: —easier if you can – oh, gosh, if, if you really want to nerd out.
Amanda: Yes.
Bethany: So, if we could just talk about, you know, Foucault and the panopticon really quickly. [Laughs]
Julia: [Chuckles]
Amanda: Oh, please. Oh, I think about it constantly.
Bethany: Bring it on. Come on.
Amanda: This is the best. Yes.
Bethany: Because I – when I was – when I was reading about this, I was like, “Okay. So, when are we gonna start talking about the social panopticon, not specific to penitentiaries, and why we would build any – anybody who would build a penitentiary with the express purpose of, like, creating docile bodies and creating people who police themselves? That is not a new concept. You did not just think of that. That is not something that you only architecturally conceived of. Okay? So—
Amanda: I was like, “Oh, this explains the whole world. Like, this is everything. Yes. This is it.”
Bethany: This is everything. This is you trying to – this is the purpose of stereotypes. Why people don't need stereotypes about Black people? You don't engage on a meaningful level and you don't integrate into and, and accept and acknowledge our history and everything as being American history. So, what would be the purpose of stereotypes? It would be actually easier to just exclude us altogether. But the existence of stereotypes is actually to enculturate the Black people themselves. It’s for you to see you this way if you see this enough times. That's what respectability politics is. And you see it in the novel, A Song Below Water, because Tavia’s father is very much a proponent of respectability. It means that I see that this culture is killing you and I can't control that. So, instead, I'm gonna try to make you personally responsible for avoiding this violence that is seeking you out. And it's such a normal thing to come from our elder generation, particularly, post-civil rights. Because, if that didn't work, maybe it's our fault. Not there was no way that white supremacy was going to go quietly into that night, but maybe it's our fault. Then maybe it's our fault that we are disproportionately criminalized and that we are – let's not even, you know, deal with the fact that there are actual racist laws on the books. Maybe it's our fault for getting pulled over by the police in the first place because – and they know that this is how the psychology works. I can't control what this huge apparatus is doing. And, if all I can control is me, then I have to take responsibility for something that's being done to me. And, if I pass that on to my younger generation, even if it's out of a desire to protect, even if it's out of a fear of what can happen to them, you're compounding my trauma. You're compounding my trauma. You are saying that my very existence is justification for how I'm being treated. And, if I don't find the exact right way – despite the fact that Martin Luther King was assassinated in a suit and tie. If I don't find the exact right way to behave, it's my fault that I got trapped in this trap that already existed. So, yeah, the respectability politics was something that was absolutely had to go into the book because I can't claim to be speaking to Black young people and ignore the fact that a lot of their trauma right now is coming from people who they should be able to trust. Yes, I try to humanize where her father is coming from. No, I don't try to say that he is right.
Amanda: Both are true.
Bethany: Right.
Amanda: I know. And white supremacy leaves no way for you to be correctly Black, you know.
Bethany: Well, exactly. Your Blackness is the weapon.
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: The color of your skin is a weapon. You will never be unarmed. So, there's no non-dehumanizing way to try to create – and, so, what you do, like I said, as you create these stereotypes over and over and you disproportionately show Black people – and, and every other marginalized group can, can see that this has been done to them as well and continues to be done to them. People either don't exist or they're terrorists. And there's no in between. And nobody had a problem with the number of terrorist roles that were being handed out and the stories that were depending on that. And then, as soon as you say, “Okay. Well, why don't we make one of these girls a superhero?” Then it's like, “Well, that's unrealistic.” But it wasn't unrealistic for 100 percent of the representation to be terrorists. Like, what are you talking about? But it's done, again, for the purpose of creating docile bodies in the marginalized themselves. It's so that I feel responsible for making sure why people don't see me that way. That becomes my job. Not to ask why that's the image already in their head, but for me to disprove it. My entire existence now has to be focused on disproving this myth that was created simply to control me.
Amanda: Yeah, that reminds me. I'm so glad that disability is part of this conversation, too, because there's so many parallels between what you describe and society describing disability as a failure of individuals or a failure of the body—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Amanda: —and not a failure of society—
Bethany: Mhmm.
Amanda: —to help accommodate and meet people for things that they can't control.
Bethany: And the reason that I always bring it up is because it's not even a parallel. It's an intersection. I am both Black, and female, and disabled. And, you know – so, these things compound. They don't stand side by side. And I'm just sometimes – because even within those communities, even within womanhood, I am marginalized by White women. I'm attacked by White women. You know, even in disability conversations, I'm erased because of my Blackness. I'm erased because my disability is specific to my Blackness. I really want people to be able to understand that all marginalization are not separate. And race needs to be at the top of the conversation at all times. Because, in every single one of these marginalization, it's going to be racist. There's going to be who gets to have a voice when there is a voice, who gets the policies that help them when policies do help them. You know, when are we gonna talk about the fact that every Black person in there, in terms of medical racism, in their experience with hospitals or doctors or anything in this country, and, actually, in probably all of the world, unfortunately, it's starting out from, from disabling you because they have decided that these things within your body and the reaction of your body to generational trauma is actually just, “Okay. So, we're just gonna move your baseline down instead of taking responsibility—
Amanda: Mhmm.
Bethany: —for why, you know, Black woman would produce more testosterone. What about the, their experience would produce more testosterone in a Black woman's body? What about having a sickle trait disorder and not having enough oxygen and, therefore, your veins sometimes thinking, well, if I open up more, I'll get more blood through; not realizing that it's actually each individual blood cell is the issue. One of the ways that, that athletes, for example, correct for that or allow more oxygen to circulate is to widen their, their veins. One of the ways that you do that are things that have testosterone in them. So, instead of looking at the fact that here is a direct line between what you have done to my people and all of the things that make it so that Black people are “more susceptible” to COVID, are more susceptible blah, blah. That all had to do with how racism created disabilities. Those disabilities were not seen as disability because they were only happening in Black people. And, now, when I go to the doctor, whether I have a specific disability or not this, I'm not going to be given the same pain management because Black people apparently can't feel pain the same way that White people do. And that’s still in medical books. You know, there's – Black women are gonna be more likely to suffer hemorrhages, and aneurisms, and die during child birth because of the expectation that we're mules and our bodies can just deal with stuff that she would have absolutely intervened if I were anyone else. Like, I understand people saying, “Okay. There are all of these different marginalizations and it's not always race.” But, unfortunately, if you have those marginalization and you're Black, it's always going to be worse. That's how you know that the main issue was trying to destroy, you know, a group of people. And it was 100 percent race based. And it was absolutely not a lottery. Slavery wasn't a lottery. Jim Crow wasn't a lottery. None of those things were a lottery. So, yes, class division and everything that happens around that has to do with race. Disability has to do with race. LGBTQIA plus marginalization and laws have to do with race. You cannot separate these things because, yes, a lot of people might get trapped in something. But who is the target? And, even within that marginalized group, who gets targeted? Yeah. And I definitely don't want to make it. Again, this is – this is – even me, we are taught always to, like, make sure that you're taking care of with White feelings. So, I don't mean to do that. But my natural inclination is, of course, to say I don't want that to seem like it was a correction for you in particular, but, rather, that, as someone who lives at multiple intersections, I know that being Black makes my womanhood experience very specific. I know that being Black makes my disability experience very specific. Number one, because medical professionals are trained already to assume I’m lying.
Amanda: Yeah.
Bethany: So, would a White woman had a similar experience of not being listened to? She would. She would have an experience of not being listened to medically. But, if she could get, let's just say, even a female doctor, that would alleviate a lot of stuff. If she could get, you know, one person who had done the work of eradicating, like, the inborn misogyny within them, she would have been helped. Okay. Let's say I get over that hurdle. But you have the implicit bias of believing that Black people don't experience pain the same way. But you have the implicit bias of thinking that Black people exaggerate or lie about their experience. So, sure, you don't have misogyny, but you still have misogynoir, you know.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Bethany: So, it's just this additional – and it shouldn't make people upset to hear that I can say that you experience certain things. But I can also say you live at the intersection of white privilege. And that also cannot be erased or ignored.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. Only, only White people can experience race not being a factor—
Bethany: Exactly.
Amanda: —in something that they are looking at, you know, examining for the first time in their own lives. So, I really appreciate you pointing that out.
Julia: I did have a question about, like, how you chose the different mythological, like, beings that you chose to include in your world.
Bethany: Mhmm.
Julia: If you want to – if you want to talk about how you – how you chose those.
Bethany: So, of course, as I said, Tavia being a siren is literally what was the genesis of the story of the world period.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: I can't speak, of course, about Effie’s, which I would really love to.
Julia: No spoilers.
Bethany: Right. No spoilers. There's something that you said at the very beginning about – and I think you were speaking specifically about sirens, but I always want to tell people that's why Effie’s identity actually quite matches Tavia’s. And I wanted their identities to be different but also to really match. Effie’s identity, this one you can cut out if, if it's too spoilery. But—
Julia: Spoilers ahead. [Chuckles]
Bethany: Right. Effie’s identity is specifically an issue because our only experience of interaction with it is from the perspective of the man who killed her. Our only experience of it is with the person who saw either her – either as a conquest or as a necessary sacrifice or needed something of her to do something else. But her identity was always presented through the lens of the man who killed her, the story of the man who killed her. And, for that reason, despite the fact that – I mean, of course, I tried to put red herrings in there. But it's like, if you know what a gorgon is, you know what a gorgon is.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: You see it as soon as, you know, you see any evidence on the page. What I more was having to get across is that it never occurred to Effie. And the fact that it never occurred to Effie is that who and what she is has been so – again, as far – it’s just from a consumer perspective. It's only been presented through the lens of someone else's story. It's never been her story. And, so, it never even occurred to her that she could be this thing that she is because she never saw this thing that she is.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: That was a really big deal to me that they both have that experience of this disallowing of this very powerful female identity. That you can't undo the power. So, you just have to either completely cut it off or use it to your own ends. And that's been our – that – you know, in mythology, that's been our entire – like, historically, it's been our entire interaction with gorgons and with Medusa. So, that's why she is that and you can cut all of that if you have to. But—
Julia: I'll put some timestamps. People can skip ahead if they don't want spoilers, but that's—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —incredible.
Bethany: So, with everyone else, sprites are in there because I wanted some assholes in there.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Amanda: Classic.
Bethany: Yeah, I was like I just want something that's ridiculous for no reason and just is – and, and, also, I wanted – so, here's the thing. The problem that I have always in stories about other worldly creatures; vampires, who are obsessed with humans, mermaids, who are obsessed with humans. And I'm like, “Wait. For what? Why? What are you talking about?” Ariel has—
Julia: Not that great.
Bethany: I mean listen. And, even if they were, like, you wouldn't even know. Ariel, you've literally seen a human for, like, two seconds.
Julia: [Laughs]
Amanda: [Laughs]
Bethany: And you decided you wanted to give up the entire depths – the abyssal depths of the ocean. What? So, I've always had this issue with how – it's the Jurassic Park effect, where it's like dinosaurs have their natural food source right there, but they just can't stop eating humans even though they won't actually help them not be hungry anymore and it's pointless. And they would never do this.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Bethany: It would be like making a story about ants. Like, we – that doesn't make any sense. Like, ants are – could not possibly just constantly – like, our, our whole existence doesn't revolve around finding and killing ants. And, if ants believe, that it's completely myopic.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Bethany: But, anyway, the point is I've always had this issue with humans writing something and, therefore, centering humans. And, therefore, the explanation for why anybody's doing anything is, A, completely understandable to humans or can be discovered, can be investigated and discovered. Or the thing is just perfectly happy just constantly fixating on humans, just constantly being focused on humans. And, so, I wanted sprites to be like, “You're not a really big deal to us. Like, it's funny to play with you, but, like, other than that, we're not trying to be known by you. We're not trying to expose our actual selves.” So, you never see a sprite. You see evidence of a sprite, but you’ve never actually seen a sprite. What benefit would there be for them to, like, interact with humans and become corporeal because humans are? Like, no, that would be – that's ridiculous. Only a human write that story. So, I wanted sprites to just be ethereal assholes. And then, of course, I wanted – giants were just the obvious – just the obvious imagery of someone having just been completely left out.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: And, therefore, having decided, “Okay. I guess I better go make my own group and my own culture because you, you aren't taking me into account.” And then I knew, if this is a story about people with power and people with magic and it's not the magic that's despised, it's the people, then there has to be a form of magic that is adored.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: And, of course, that became the Eloko. Now, the Eloko, in this book, it doesn't matter what their magic is. It doesn't matter what their power is. It doesn't even actually matter if they have it or if it's just become the myth of Eloko and what is so great about Eloko. Because, in my mind, they really are an illustration of white privilege. It's the attribution of power. It's not the inherent – it's not the inherent possession of power. It's the attribution of power. We have decided that you are powerful. And, therefore, we're going to give you the rewards. And we're going to give you the consequence of that regardless of whether you ever actually earn it or ever actually expressed that power. And, for that reason, I know people would be like, “Well, then why did you choose Eloko? Why didn't you choose, you know, something that's more associated with Northern Europe or something like that?” A, like I said, because I'm decentralizing Europe in fantasy.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Bethany: It doesn't – fantasy does not belong in Europe and to Europe. I also wanted to center something, yes, that had its roots in, on the continent because Eloko are – and, actually, when you pluralize it, it should be Biloko. Biloko are part of Central African folklore. But I am also Black American. And this is very specifically diaspora fantasy. So, what you read in this book is not what Central African folklore presents as Biloko. Number one, like I said, I don't even properly pluralize it. That's not a mistake. It's a choice. I'm talking about the telephone effect of trying to understand or know something that could distantly be related to me, but it's a story that's been told and retold and retold and retold. It's a copy of a copy of a copy. And, by the time it gets specifically to the west coast, what does that look like? What do I understand it to be? And that is just as valid as any other oral tradition.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Bethany: And that is just as valid as, in terms of a cultural heritage and tradition as literally anyone else. And there's no such thing as why I'm Black American and “I don't know” or I don't – or I shouldn't play in African or European. I have a birthright to do both. Literally, all heritage is my heritage. I’m, I'm a product of the convergence of all of these things. So, I'm not trying to pass this off as like, “Oh, I'm, I’m telling a Central African story. I'm telling a Black American, specifically, West Coast story.” And, so, the Eloko, in this book, are somewhat tangentially, you know, related to this idea. So, the, the original Biloko would be these small, like, diminutive ancestral Spirit cannibals who use these bell sounds in the woods to like – to get people, to trick people into coming out. And then, of course, they eat them. And, of course, it's not at all what the logo in A Song Below Water are like. They are attributed – like, they do have a sort of wisdom and charisma that is attributed to some sort of ancestral wisdom. They do have bell sounds, but, other than that, they're just really beloved. And they're just very, very popular. Basically, they're celebrities. That's about it. There is a book coming out in June called A Chorus Rises, which is the story of Naema. And she, of course, is in an Eloko. You will see that there are differences even between the two books in terms of verbiage. So, Eloko is not capitalized in A Song Below Water and, when it’s pluralized, they add an S. But that is also because the two people telling that story are Tavia and Effie, neither of whom are eloko. So, when you come to A Chorus Rises and it's told by Naema, Eloko is capitalized. Eloko is plural and singular. And, so, obviously, I didn't really think that this was, like, a really complex or complicated thing. But, obviously, you should defer to what Naema says about something that Naema actually is. But, even in copy edits, I had to say, “No, I understand that these are two related books. I understand that you tend to have a style guide. But that's not how it works when someone is telling their own story. If she says it's capital, its capital. If she says that it's plural and singular, it's plural and singular. No, I don't want you to go back and change it in the first book. It's told by someone else.” I'm like, you know, just ethnographically, I was like, I didn't know that this was gonna be such as a – this was such a revolutionary thing to do. But—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Mhmm.
Bethany: Yeah, that's – if you want to – if you want to know the story of Eloko from and Eloko, that would be A Chorus Rises.
Amanda: Incredible. Well, I cannot wait, for anyone who hasn't read your work, to seek it out and read it. Find Bethany C. Morrow books wherever books are sold. And, Bethany, do you want to just remind us or let the listeners know where else they can find you online? I can't wait for folks to, to buy or to reread your work after this conversation.
Julia: Join me in the reread everyone.
Bethany: I love that. Thank you so much, Julia, for, for reading and rereading.
Julia: Of course.
Bethany: So, I am most readily available on Twitter. I do mute my own tweets. So, if you respond to my tweets and I don't say anything, it's likely because I have already muted that. Don't worry. There's a reminder in my bio that I do that. But I am @BCMorrow. I'm also on Instagram @BCMorrow. But you will quickly discover that Instagram is not my ministry.
Amanda: [Chuckles]
Bethany: It's sort of something I'm doing because my publisher was like, “You should do this.” But Twitter, as you can – you can probably tell that I like words and I like talking and stuff. So, Twitter is the best place to find me. I do have a website, which is www.bethanycmorrow.com. And I think that is – I mean, for all the places that I intentionally put myself, that's where you can find me. [Chuckles]
Julia: Awesome. Thank you so much.
Bethany: Thank you for having me.
Amanda: Thank you again for your time. And, everybody, remember.
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil