Episode 53: Sedna & Inuit Shapeshifters
/Bundle up from the cold as we tell you some of our favorite stories from Inuit mythology. We tell the relatable story of how a woman goes from a horrible marriage and overbearing father to being the queen of the sea and underworld. Then we dive into the land where the spirit and human worlds are blurred, and shapeshifters lurk among us. Featuring conquering mountains, kawaii children snatchers, motivational fish posters, and more!
Thanks to Tab for a Cause for sponsoring us this week. Grab the extension and start earning for charity at tabforacause.com/spirits!
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. Merch is for sale at spiritspodcast.com/merch.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 53: Sedna & Inuit Shapeshifters.
JS: Yeah. We're heading to someplace we haven't covered yet before.
AM: And the episode is exactly as cool as that title promises it will be.
JS: And it's pretty awesome in my opinion.
AM: So good. You know who else are awesome, Jules?
JS: Probably our patrons.
AM: Our new patrons, Nick and Mary Ann, as well as our supporting producer-level patrons: Neal, Chandra, Philip, Dylan, Julie, Sara, Kristina, Robert, Lindsey, JST, Sandra, Eeyore, Debra, Kimmo, Phil, Ryan, and Catherine.
JS: You guys rock. You're the coolest. I have a good one for the legends.
AM: Okay.
JS: I'm saving it for them.
AM: All right. So, Julia, tell us about our legend-level patrons. Who are they? What do they do?
JS: Our legend level patrons are LeAnn, Cassie, Cammie, Shannon, Erin, and Ashley. And they are the cool reindeer shapeshifters of my heart.
AM: Super true.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Super true. That'll be a very cool tattoo. Like a reindeer kind of – a reindeer period, but also a reindeer kind of shapeshifting.
JS: I'm pretty sure you thought reindeer weren't real a couple of weeks ago.
AM: Listen, I just wanted to confirm that mythically horned to animals are in fact real. After the Norwell, I don't even know what's real anymore.
JS: Oh, buddy, buddy, the Norwell was real. And it's not a horn. It's a tooth.
AM: You keep saying that about the tooth, Julia.
JS: It's true.
AM: It doesn't make it less fantastical to learn.
JS: Sure. No.
AM: Well, I was several drinks deep at the time. What were we drinking this episode?
JS: We had some Toasty Lager, because it's cold outside and we want to keep a little warm.
AM: Yeah. Alcohol is the best. [Inaudible 1:27] Drink responsibly, kids.
JS: Yeah.
AM: We would love to thank this week, probably our most responsible sponsor.
JS: Good job.
AM: It's Tab for a Cause, which is a browser extension that lets you raise money for charity as you browse the web by – when you open a new tab on your computer, it’s just showing you a beautiful photo and also a little ad. And that ad raises money for charity.
JS: And it's amazing. And why wouldn't you do that?
AM: I don't know. But you can download it at tabforacause.com/spirits. And we’ll be telling you more about it later.
JS: Yo, what up? Many of you have tweeted at us, messaged us on Facebook, asked us on Tumblr, sent us emails, written to our moms looking for good book recommendations. I would suggest you check out our Goodreads group, because we add stuff all the time to it.
AM: We do. We do. We add our favorite books that are about mythology, inspired by mythology, categorizing mythology. I just got a couple new books as a sort of advanced holiday gift that I'm gonna add into the group. So, in the description of this podcast, we have a link to our social media including our Goodreads or you can just search Spirits Podcast on Goodreads.
JS: It's pretty easy to find.
AM: And, you know, this holiday season I think it is really lovely to make donations in people's names as a gift. For folks who don't need anything, maybe they're minimalistic, maybe, you know, you're going to do a handmade or low-cost holiday this year, but I really love making donations. I bought my uncle a goat one time. Like the donation of a goat.
JS: I remember this.
AM: And, and he found it really, really adorable. Heifer International, I really recommend it. But, if you want to maybe make someone that you love a patron, you can do that. You can give them a gift card or give them some cash or, you know, help walk them through the process of signing up for Patreon. Or, you can give the gift of support to your favorite Indie creators, whether or not we're on that list. I think it's really, really lovely to, to give to and pay for media that you really care about. So, you know, consider that as you're thinking about your gifts.
JS: Yeah. And, if you give a Patreon donation as a gift in someone else's name, let us know and we'll give them a special shout out in the episode.
AM: Yay.
JS: Easy-peasy. And it's a little gift for them. They'll hear our voice and will be like, “Oh, my god, Amanda and Julia said our name.”
AM: We totally did.
JS: It's adorable.
AM: We also actually do sponsorships. So, if you have a business or someone that you love has a business and you want to arrange a sponsorship of Spirits for them, email us at spiritspodcast@gmail.
JS: That would be super cool.
AM: Yay. Well, Julia, we need to start packing for PodCon, which we are going to next week in Seattle.
JS: PodCon.
AM: Can't wait. So, without further ado, I will let you guys enjoy the tundra of Spirits Podcast Episode 53: Sedna & Inuit Shapeshifters.
Intro Music
JS: So, Amanda, this week I want to talk about duality.
AM: Ooh.
JS: It's not often that we start off the episode with me stating what the theme is going to be.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But this is – we're gonna first hit off a new tradition and new mythology that we haven't touched on before.
AM: Yay.
JS: And I found a couple of stories in that mythology that I thought fit the bill for this theme. So, I want to start off with the theme and then get to the stories.
AM: I'm stoked.
JS: So, we're actually going to be talking about some stories from Inuit mythology.
AM: Yay.
JS: We haven't done any First Nations or Native American stuff. So, I thought that was a good place to start. And, so, what we're gonna start with is one of my favorite stories; how a woman becomes the Mistress of the Sea and Lady of the Underworld.
AM: I am taking notes. Let's do it.
JS: Yeah, I know. It’s dream goals. So, let me tell you a story, Amanda.
AM: Anytime, babe.
JS: There once was a woman named Sedna. In some stories, she's a giant, but what you need to know is she lived in the Arctic with her mother and father, whom she loved very much. Her father was a hunter, a great hunter. So, her family always had plenty of food and warm furs to wear. Because she was so comfortable at her home, Sedna refused to marry and leave the comfort of that home. Many men tried to come to the family desiring to take Sedna as a wife and asking her parents, but Sedna refused them all.
AM: All right.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Good start. Good start.
JS: I mean goals.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Her parents eventually demanded that it was time for her to marry, but she refused to obey. One day a man came to Sedna, he promised her a life of comfort, foods to eat, furs for clothes, and blankets. Sedna and agreed to marry him. And, once they became man and wife, he took her away to his island.
AM: Hmm. Smells like a sea god.
JS: Not a sea God. Good try though. From all the stories that I've told you so far, it wouldn't be surprising if this guy was a sea god.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But I will tell you it is something we have seen before.
AM: Okay.
JS: And I'm not gonna spoil it right away.
AM: All right.
JS: It was there – once they were alone, that he revealed himself that he was not a man at all, but a bird dressed up as a man. Plot twist.
AM: Classic bird husband.
JS: It’s always a bird husband.
AM: What kind of bird?
JS: They don't specify. In a couple of different versions, it's like a gull or, you know, just a bird that's native to the area.
AM: I see.
JS: Yeah. So, Sedna is pissed off.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Of course.
AM: False advertising.
JS: But she's married to him and on an island with no way of getting off. So, she makes the best of it.
AM: Okay.
JS: But, because he's a bird, it means he's actually not a great hunter like he said and I can't provide her with furs and such to keep warm. All the birdman can really do is catch fish.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: And, after a while, fish can get really annoying. And Sedna gets really sick of it.
AM: Oh.
JS: Because, when you have too much of a mediocre thing, you’ll learn to hate that thing.
AM: Yeah, word. And he also specifically promised furs and good food.
JS: Yeah. One would assume that that wouldn't just be fish. You can't keep warm with fish skin. I don't think.
AM: You can’t keep warm with fish skin. It just sounds – it sounds like a motivational blogpost title. You know, like, like your counseling a girlfriend, like I know it really sucks. Like you know, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, you can't keep warm with fish skin, girl. You got to like take care of yourself.
JS: I love it. I want it like on a poster with some – I don't know – some ocean in the background being, “Well, you can't keep fish skin.”
AM: I mean unless, unless like that suits you specifically and you're a fish. We're getting too deep into this.
JS: Yes. Okay. Sorry. Her father comes to visit her after she and her husband have been married for a while.
AM: Nice.
JS: The father sees that his daughter is not happy, and that her husband had lied to her and to them. Like lied to her and the family. He kills the birdman for disrespecting and lying to his family and escorts Sedna off the island.
AM: Whoa.
JS: It escalates very quickly.
AM: That did escalate very quick.
JS: Like it escalates even further from here.
AM: Oh, bad.
JS: So, they get into his kayak to go home, but the birdman’s friends have discovered that he has murdered their friend basically.
AM: Right. Are they also bird husbands?
JS: They're not bird husbands. They're just bird friends.
AM: Okay.
JS: They want revenge.
AM: Okay.
JS: Obviously. So, they fly above the kayak. And they flap their wings very hard, which causes a huge storm.
AM: Wow.
JS: The waves crash over the kayak making it nearly impossible to keep the boat upright. Sedna's father is frightened by the storm. And worries that it will fill the kayak with water. And he will drown in the icy waters. So, naturally, he figures that if there's less weight in the boat --
AM: No.
JS: -- there's a better chance that he'll survive. So, what he does is he throws Sedna overboard. But --
AM: No. He should jump overboard instead.
JS: Yeah. Well – but Sedna’s a tough girl. She spent a year or so living in this shit show with a bird husband.
AM: That's true.
JS: So, she's, she's developed a thick skin so to speak. Sedna’s survival instincts kick in, and she clings to the edge of her father's boat. Fearing that his daughter will tip it, the father cuts her fingers off one at a time.
AM: No.
JS: But, as he does this and they fall into the water, a different sea creature is born and emerges from it.
AM: Whoa.
JS: They became --
AM: This is a rollercoaster Julia.
JS: I know. Like I said, it escalates quickly. So, they become fish, seals, walruses, whales, all that kind of stuff.
AM: And is this the introduction of those creatures to the sea?
JS: Yes. She becomes the mother of those creatures. That's great. So, Sedna finally falls from the boat, when the last finger is cut, sinking to the bottom of the ocean.
AM: Does she die?
JS: No. Instead, she becomes a powerful spirit. And her home emerges from the ocean floor.
AM: Yay.
JS: I know. It’s so good.
AM: I mean like I'm sorry. That's awful. Your father sounds like he had the wrong impulse under mortal fear.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But that's pretty dope.
JS: I mean I take – I’d take getting my fingers cut off I guess in order to become a goddess of the ocean
AM: As long as they grow back.
JS: They don't.
AM: No.
JS: They don't in her situation. She does not have fingers.
AM: Julia just has a look on her face like a parent who says, “Yeah. No. We, we, we flushed Sammy down to the ocean to be with the other fish.”
JS: Okay. Someone speaking from experience.
AM: Yeah. My African water frogs did not live for 10 years.
JS: You had African water frogs?
AM: I did.
JS: Damn.
AM: Because I was a sad, sad child allergic to the world, those are the only pets that Connor and I could have.
JS: That's adorable. I'm sorry you were allergic to everything that was fluffy and cute.
AM: Yeah. Yep.
JS: So, Sedna becomes a powerful water spirit. It is said that, if you see her now, she has the head and torso of a woman and the tail of a fish.
AM: Wooh.
JS: So, traditional mermaid style.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Kind of nice. I'm into it. I like that --
AM: That's an animal human fusion I can get by.
JS: Yeah. And I like that that's such a universal thing. Like water spirit --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- you know, body of a human, but also the tail of the fish.
AM: I mean pretty convenient. Like you see fish swimming, and you're like, “Damn, you guys figured it out, you know.”
JS: Yes,
AM: So, I know --
JS: Yes.
AM: I took the train to Long Beach the other day. And I saw a man on the train. It was like 50 degrees out. It was quite chilly. And he was carrying – his like grown man with like intense Oakley sunglasses on.
JS: Okay.
AM: Carrying a backpack with a flip flop in each water bottle pocket, which I just thought was so adorable and great. And then a pair of flippers in his hands and nothing else.
JS: Dope.
AM: It was like 8:00 in the morning. Like he was – he was – I have so many questions.
JS: He was on a mission.
AM: He was going there from somewhere or coming home from somewhere. I don't know. And just carrying flippers and like what – like the backpack wasn't big enough to have a wetsuit. And you would need a wetsuit to swim that day. It's like, “Wwhat were you doing, bro?”
JS: Was it enough to hold a wetsuit if you rolled up the wetsuit?
AM: I don't think so.
JS: All right. Dang.
AM: Anyway. I have so many questions.
JS: Sedna is able to control all the animals in the sea. And, so, keeping Sedna happy means she will allow the animals to make themselves available to hunters.
AM: Oh, okay.
JS: So, the hunter – if Sedna is not happy --
AM: Right.
JS: -- hunter starve.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, if hunters do not catch anything for a long time, the spiritual leader of the tribe will transform themselves into a fish. And, in this form, they swim down to the bottom of the sea to appease Sedna. You wanna guess how the – how one would appease Sedna?
AM: Bringing her stuff.
JS: No. It's a really specific thing actually.
AM: All right. I don't know.
JS: So, they comb the tangles out of her hair and put them into braids.
AM: That's amazing.
JS: Which any – I feel like this is a universal thing. All women like other people playing with their hair.
AM: Maybe not all, but many of us I think.
JS: Many of us enjoy that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I feel like it is – it is definitely a thing.
AM: And you can achieve better braids with other folks' assistance than you can on your own.
JS: 100 percent accurate. Also, the reason Sedna needed someone to help her braid and detangle her hair --
AM: Oh no. Because she has no finger.
JS: -- is she doesn't have fingers. Yeah.
AM: I would have forgotten that part of you hadn't mentioned it.
JS: Yeah. Sorry.
AM: But I love that so much. Like, as a ritual, instead of needing to like go to conquer a thing, or kill a demon, or like bring a sacrifice, you just like to go down there, spend some quality time. Like do something nice for her. That's pretty calming.
JS: Yeah
AM: Hopefully, low stakes. Even though the stakes are like starvation of your --
JS: People.
AM: -- you know, people, that is so unique.
JS: Yeah. I really like it. I think it's actually fairly sweet.
AM: And do the leaders transform back into people when they get there? So, they can --
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah
JS: Because they need fingers. They can’t do it as fish.
AM: Although, they did have to have a like elaborate collaboration with other people to like have each fish on a stand of hair.
JS: Oh, that's funny. It's a really rather sweet story. Of course, there's another version of it or at least another ending --
AM: Oh, oh.
JS: -- that is less sweet.
AM: Okay. Let's hear it.
JS: Okay. So, in this other version. Sedna does not float to the bottom of the sea. The birdman sees her go under, and stop the storm and fly away. Her father then helped Sedna back into the boat after cutting off all her fingers still, but Sedna has been betrayed. She's grown to hate him, and she swears bitter revenge.
AM: Okay.
JS: Because --
AM: Naturally.
JS: -- of course, you would. When they get ashore, she calls her dogs to him and orders them to gnaw off the feet and hands of her father while he sleeps.
AM: Yikes.
JS: The father wakes up, obviously, because, once your feet and hands are getting gnawed off you, do wake up.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: He puts a curse on them, whereupon the Earth opens up and swallows everyone inside the hut in which they were staying at. Taking them to the land of Adlivun, which is the Underworld.
AM: Whoa.
JS: It's the name for those who occupy that space and also the underworld itself.
AM: Right.
JS: It means those who lie beneath us or something like that.
AM: Wow.
JS: So, Sedna becomes the mistress of the underworld and is said to imprison the souls of the living as part of preparation for the next stage of their journey to the underworld.
AM: Wow. And that's really interesting and indistinct from the last kind of underworld scenario, we talked about – or last two, being the Egyptian Underworld and then also the kind of classical Greek conception of the sea, you know, the Earth, and the underworld being like totally separate dominions. Like I love that she's associated with both the underworld and the sea.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I feel like you don't see that very often.
JS: It's really nice actually. And it's really interesting too, because, when I tell you a little bit more about their Underworld, it's very distinct --
AM: Wooh.
JS: -- to the culture itself.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, in Inuit culture the dead were traditionally wrapped in caribou skin and then buried. And, during the three days of mourning, mourners ritualistically would circle the grave three times promising venison to the spirit, which was then brought to the grave when visited.
AM: Make sense.
JS: So, Adlivun is said to be located beneath the land and the sea. But it's – in certain stories, it's also north of, you know, the territories that are occupied by the Inuit people. The souls of the dead are purified in Adlivun in preparation for their travel to the land of the moon, where they will have eternal rest and peace.
AM: Wow. It's really beautiful.
JS: It's really beautiful. I really like that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Adlivun is typically described as a frozen wasteland, which is why it's usually occupied north of where – where they are.
AM: And why you need caribou skin.
JS: Yeah, exactly. It gets cold there. And one is sometimes said to be able to travel to the area by heading too far north.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Man.
JS: And that becomes more prominent in the story that I'm gonna tell you next, because there's sort of the north is where the line between the mortal world and the spirit world starts to get a little bit hazy.
AM: I love that so much. And it also reminds me of my favorite image from A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula Le Guin, which is like one of my favorite fantasy books of all time.
JS: They're wonderful.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it's one of the few ones where the main characters are people of color --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- in a fantasy world.
AM: Yes.
JS: And that’s wonderful.
AM: And, in the second book, a girl as well, which is just incredible. And I loved it as a kid. But, anyway, the, the sort of ideas like you sail to an – a kind of unworldly, otherworldly place by just going east, and east, and east farther than the maps, farther than the oceans, like farther than any person thought that a person could sail. And that idea of the, the line between the otherworldly and the, the land of the mortals being fuzzy is just so interesting to read.
JS: I love that a lot.
AM: I love it.
JS: Tolkien kind of did that a little bit too. So, talking about that kind of existing between two worlds and the duality of that --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- the next story I wanna talk about is the shapeshifter called the Ijiraq. So, in North Baffin dialect, Ijiraq literally means shapeshifter. Like we're just gonna straight, direct translation there. It means shapeshifter, which is great. I love it when a translation is straight to the point.
AM: Yeah. Like that's what that is.
JS: Yeah. Ijirait were able to appear in any form that it would choose, which makes it particularly deceitful. The Ijiraq was known to kidnap children, hide them away, and then abandon them.
AM: Wow. Did it have a true form? Or, was it like a human that could shapeshift or it's just like bogart style like, you know, a Schrödinger's box of a spirit?
JS: I think it's a bogart style. It's a monsterous spirit, but it’s a shapeshifter specifically.
AM: Oh, got it.
JS: And there are like subcategories of the Ijiraq. I'll talk about one later, where they have a specific form. But the Ijiraq, in general, can take any shape it wants.
AM: Got it.
JS: So, when the Inuit are hunting in an area that they know that the Ijiraq inhabits, they will often report seeing figures out of the corner of their eyes just for a brief moment. So, going back to that bogart style, just kind of a shadowy figure in the corner of your eye.
AM: Yeah. Or the Creepypasta loves that kind of stuff.
JS: They do. And, so, this is because, like you said, if you look at an Ijiraq directly when they have no specific form, they are completely elusive. You cannot see them if you look directly at them.
AM: That’s quite cool.
JS: Yikes.
AM: Or, those big-headed monsters on Doctor Who. Was that Season 12?
JS: The Silence?
AM: Or the Second Doctor. Yeah. The Silence. Yeah.
JS: I remember which one you're talking about.
AM: Yikes.
JS: You have Season 12 and then the Second Doctor was like, “Whoa.”
AM: And whip those up.
JS: Whiplash there.
AM: 12th doctor, Season Two of him.
JS: It was the 11th doctor Season Two of him.
AM: It was that – whatever number he is.
JS: He is the 11th doctor.
AM: Oh, that's right, because 10 was – okay. Sorry.
JS: Yes.
AM: I'm a fake nerd girl.
JS: It's okay. I love you anyway.
AM: Thank you.
JS: The fact that we can look directly at them has to do with the fact that the Ijirait, which is the plural of Ijiraq --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- inhabit a place between two worlds. So, they're not quite inside our world, nor do they exist completely outside of it.
AM: Woohoo.
JS: A lot of their mythology comes out of the idea that the Inuit believe that if someone went too far north, like I was saying, they would become trapped between the world of the dead and the world of the living and would become themselves Ijiraq.
AM: And is that the origin of all of them are just people who have wandered too far?
JS: I don't know if that's the origin of all of them.
AM: Right. But it's --
JS: I didn't get too much origin story out of the Ijiraq, but, yeah, it's, it's how more formed.
AM: That's a possibility. Wow. That's a – and it's sort of, to my mind, I immediately assume that the sort of narrative here is that the, you know, lost souls who went too far north are trying to return back to home.
JS: That's beautiful.
AM: But their bodies have either perished or are trapped, you know, in the – in the other world. They kind of keep like, like buffering into animals. You know what I mean?
JS: I like that a lot.
AM: Like – or they, they have to take a form but only for a little while, and then it kind of dissolves. Like they're, they're very, you know, essence is like unstable like an atom.
JS: Kind of like Mr. Smith in the second Matrix movie.
AM: Yes.
JS: Just a lot of weird shit going on.
AM: Yes.
JS: And they're not able to form properly, because they've been damaged in some way. Yeah. I like that.
AM: And my mind goes to computer stuff, right, where like it's trying to render a form in the like computer sense of the word.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But it can't fully. And I – or, or like kind of popping into – you know, just popping into something. Like, “No, that's not right or no, it won't stick.”
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like what a – what an existence.
JS: Like super glitchy. I like that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Wooh. That was – that was a good analogy, Amanda. Great job. Proud of you.
AM: Thanks, babe.
JS: So, this borderline between the living and the dead, that's the Ijiraq’s home. Though they've been known to spread further south. It is said that people who visit this land will become cursed and lose their way no matter how skilled a tracker they are or how familiar they are with that land.
AM: Well.
JS: There's a story about a man and a woman who stumbled upon a small peninsula while hunting. And the man, despite being a renowned navigator, was completely lost. They, across from the peninsula, were able to see the camp that they made and their children. But they struggled to find their way back despite being able to see the camp and seeing the path back.
AM: Oh, god.
JS: They arrived just in time to see that a polar bear is circling the children ready to devour them, but they managed to chase the bear off. Some people say that the polar bear is an Ijiraq, who's hoping that their magic would be able to provide them with an unprotected batch of children.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah. That's an intense story. Can, can you imagine like that – that's like every horror movie’s kind of nightmare, where you're following a path and then you're like, all of a sudden, like we passed that tree already. It looks like that weird shape. So, I remember it and just getting completely lost.
AM: Yeah. Or you're outside at home or, you know, have no voice and your friends are kind of just out of like, you know, your, your arm's reach, right? And you can't signal to them.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I'm reading a book right now called Mountains of the Mind by Robert Macfarlane, which is about the history of mountaineering and also the history of like mountains as a thing that human beings have wanted to conquer.
JS: That's amazing.
AM: Yeah. Like it was only into the kind of late 1600s that people started thinking of mountains as like a thing instead of just like a thing in the way of the horizon.
JS: Sure.
AM: And some sort of stuff in their own right. And there are really fascinating theories about how like, after the flood, like the crust of the earth, you know, kind of smashed against each other. That's how mountains are formed. Like all kinds of sort of theological explanations. But, anyway, this whole idea of mountains as having – or any kind of extreme landscape – its own allure and like magnetic poles people and this just kind of human urge to like get to the extreme place and to conquer something that shouldn't be conquerable by, by humans. It's just – it's so interesting and ingrained. And it's a great book. But, anyway, that idea of like, at a certain point, the land just repels people. And it seems almost conscious. You know, like almost as if it's, you know, two the north ends of a magnet repelling each other or something. It's just something that I find really, really fascinating.
JS: It's a really, really cool concept. And it's, it's such an embodiment of human, you know, not ingenuity but --
AM: Like human – like the human condition.
JS: Yes. Yes. And our desire to just do whatever we want, because we can do. That sort of thing. You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah. Like to do – to do what, what we shouldn't be able to.
JS: Yes, basically. So, do you want me to go back to the story?
AM: Fine.
JS: Or, actually, we could use a refill.
AM: Oh, okay. Yeah. Let's go.
JS: Okay.
Midroll Music
AM: All right, Jules. It's time for another lager, which I super enjoy, and also to tell our listeners about our sponsor this week.
JS: Yeah. We are sponsored this week by Tab for a Cause. It is a browser extension that shows you a pretty photo when you open a new tab, and also an ad. And that ad raises money for charity.
AM: Yeah. You keep doing your thing on the internet like you normally do. Just doing your stuff. And, when you would normally open up a tab and nothing happens or it shows you like bookmarks and click Facebook or whatever.
JS: Or Google or whatever.
AM: Whatever. Who cares? Just do it and put in the URL bar. You can instead raise money for a good cause.
JS: Like that's amazing. Why would you not do that? It’s super easy. You're doing something good for the world. It's great.
AM: And it's like a low memory, kind of low impact extension. I'm like a power user of Google Chrome. I have tons of extensions that do all kinds of things to my internet browsing. And this one like doesn't slow me down one bit.
JS: I also shamefully have at least 20 tabs open on my computer at all times.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: So, I would be raising a shit ton of money if I was using Tab for a Cause.
AM: And they have a little clock for you to like. They really think about making this tab like beautiful and also practical. I don't know. It's just like an idea, where you think to yourself like how, how has this not happened already.
JS: Yeah. So, we're issuing a challenge for you.
AM: We are.
JS: We're going to see how much money Team Spirits can raise between now and the end of the year.
AM: Yes. The good, good folks at Tab for a Cause are gonna be giving us reports on how much money people who sign up using our referral link raise for charity. Again, no donation from you. Just from the magic of ads. So, if you go to tabforacause.com/spirits, you can install the extension and get that race going.
JS: And we will be so grateful. And the people who are getting these donations via these ads will also be grateful. And everyone wins. And it's the time of the season, where you should be giving anyway. So --
AM: And that's like my favorite kind of giving, which requires nothing from me.
JS: Good job.
AM: All right. Let's get back to the episode.
JS: All right. So, going back to the stories, where they steal children away, this seems to be another one of those typical Boogeyman creatures that we've seen many times in mythology.
AM: Nice.
JS: Going back to the bug bear, or the kelpies, or any sort of murder horse.
AM: Fan art request, an adorable version of all our children's stealers. The Aswang.
JS: Oh, no.
AM: The Ijiraq. Who else do we have?
JS: Various.
AM: Various Fae, Kelpies.
JS: Changelings I guess.
AM: Changelings are just kind of like waiting.
JS: Yeah, that's true.
AM: Waiting to be replaced. Anyway, I just think it'd be really cute.
JS: It would be adorable, dude.
AM: The Taktak.
JS: Highlight all of these giant children stealers, but okay.
AM: Yeah. But, but they’re just like – just like a Kawaii version. I think it'd be really great.
JS: Kawaii version. You’re the worst. Okay. So, elders in Inuit culture will warn children about traveling on their own as the Ijiraat will wait for lone travelers and will change shape to win their favor.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Which, you know, it's like the horse thing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Children want to play with horses. And then they get stick – and they stick to them. And then they’re drowned and devoured.
AM: You know, classic. But, yeah, like traveling alone and you'll see something that will either scare you or entice you, and, and, you know, make you kind of wander to your death.
JS: Yeah, basically.
AM: Don't do it.
JS: Don't do it. So, it’s said that, if one encounters an Ijirait, they will lose their memory. And they will forget details of the experience after a short amount of time.
AM: Whoa.
JS: One way of recognizing an Ijiraq is from their red eyes, which stay red no matter what form they’re in. Yep. This is, you know, classic demon stuff.
AM: I know. And I think we've talked about in the past as well – maybe with Beaivi of the significance of the color red and just how, how much it does stand out in that tundra landscape.
JS: For sure.
AM: And it's, it’s just there's something like primal that sees that as a danger color.
JS: Well, I'm curious if that's – you know, it has to come from somewhere. I'm curious if that was like a sign of albinism --
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: -- in nature. Just seeing a white caribou with glowing red eyes, that would be super creepy, you know.
AM: Yeah. And kind of blend in with the surroundings if it were a, you know, kind of snowy tundra --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- in a way that would seem like it was maybe --
JS: Not – if it was just moving into a corner of your eye.
AM: - in the corner. Right.
JS: You're right. That's super weird. Oh, dang. That's a good point. So, children, who managed to convince the Ijiraq to let them go, could find their way back by using stone markers that were used for navigating known as inuksuk, which are put in forests and plains as markers of areas with few natural landmarks. So, imagine your on the tundra --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- if you see a rock, that's gonna be your pointer in order to get you back to where you need to be.
AM: Makes total sense. And it's a great example of the fact that native peoples had way more infrastructure than Western culture likes to give them credit for.
JS: Exactly. And it's also giving these children a lot of credit, because they learn these things very early on. And they have to have some sort of independence in order to go out into the wilderness and, hopefully, not get lost.
AM: Yeah. And also to have – to have a kind of example of how ingenuity can, you know, let you return home safely. There's lots of examples in, you know, fairy tales that we grew up hearing about, you know, you can sweet talk a monster, or you can lie to a monster, or --
JS: Or trick a monster.
AM: -- trick a monster. But --
JS: And then follow your breadcrumbs home.
AM: Right. But the idea that like being just a studious person who like knows the roots and knows how to do it, and that your kind of practical knowledge can also guide you home. I know, as a person who's always felt way more like practical than I do witty, you know, it – it is really nice for me to kind of have an example of like, “No, like you pay attention to your grandpa and your tracking lessons, and you friggin learn the road markers. Like you're going to get home safe.”
JS: That is true. It's always good to pay attention to your grandpa in any story, in any context.
AM: Yes.
JS: Even if your grandpa is trying to scare you into thinking that he's a skeleton living in a tree.
AM: Yeah. Shout out hometown urban legends I. I still haven’t gotten over that one.
JS: It's so frickin good. The Bloody Bones?
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: Oh, love that story.
AM: I – that grandpa, goddamn legend.
JS: One of the specific forms that an Ijiraq can take is known as the Tariaksuq, which is a shapeshifter, but it appears in its natural form as a half-man, half-caribou. I know it's your favorite thing. Half animal, half-person.
AM: What's the configuration here?
JS: I don't know. I'll have to look up a photo later. But --
AM: Maybe Centaur style. Like Torso Man.
JS: No, not centaur style. I think it's kind of like Prisoner of Askaban movie version of the werewolf, but caribou style. Kind of like hulking figure, longer arms in the front that’s kind of like a curved like that.
AM: Great to the most possible horrifying version.
JS: Yes, exactly.
AM: Nice. Great.
JS: I just assumed the most horrifying for your benefit.
AM: Good. So, like mid-transformation man to caribou.
JS: Yes, basically. .
AM: Excellent. I’m not gonna be sleeping tonight.
JS: The, the [Inaudible 30:30] like diagram, it’s about the third or fourth one in.
AM: Awesome.
JS: Which is always the most terrifying one.
AM: Did you ever think about at what point in the human to werewolf transition you'd like to stop? Like if you had to choose one that wasn't one or the other?
JS: I would stop right before the wolf.
AM: Yeah. Same. Good. That's the only correct answer.
JS: Yeah. Well, no, I think – I think --
AM: Or like a very hairy person.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Right.
JS: I think you could go – you could go like Dyson from Lost Girl werewolf style or Teen Wolf style --
AM: Right.
JS: -- where it's not terrible.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Or you can go slightly human wolf.
AM: So, it's like a human.
JS: Anywhere in between knows, that's not a good choice.
AM: That's the netherworld.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's not a good place.
JS: That's, that's when it goes full horror movie.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And you’re, “Oh, okay, that's why no one wants to be a werewolf.”
AM: Yeah. And like --
JS: And then other two options is like, “Oh, that's fine. Like I'm cool with that.”
AM: And like, in, in the way that all supernaturalism can be viewed as a lens for like difference in human beings, I get that that's a somewhat problematic statement, right, that like you need to be one or the others with like a width of the – of the difference that makes like exotic --
JS: Sure.
AM: -- or like a – that’s just bad. And, you know, as a person the middle of a Kinsey scale, like totally middlest is great.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But, if I had to choose between human and wolf, I think I would choose like, like just smarter than the other wolves, maybe with thumbs.
JS: Yeah. I think – I think larger, smarter wolf is the way to go --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- on a scale of human to wolf.
AM: Yeah. Just be like the best, most terrifying pet.
JS: I don't want to be anyone's pet if I’m a wolf.
AM: Yeah, but everyone knows. And then you can just like be part of the family. Then you go out kind of Sirius Black as the – as the dog style.
JS: Yes. And --
AM: And be like --
JS: And, as Mike Schubert from the Potterless Podcast pointed out, that's super dumb of him to have gone out in wolf form into public.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: Well – or the dog form.
AM: No, it's the riskiest behavior of all time.
JS: Yes.
AM: Like, Sirius, I'm sure you would have been a great guardian in your mind, but maybe not --
JS: If you hadn't gone to --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- wizard prison, when you were 19 or 21 or however the fuck old he was at that point.
AM: Not very old.
JS: He was like 20, early 20s.
AM: They were very young to have a newborn. Yeah.
JS: They were. Okay. Anyway.
AM: Lily and James’ family planning aside.
JS: Yeah. I'm just thinking – I'm just thinking about, “Wow. I am like five years older than they are when they died and had a baby,” but whatever.
AM: Yep. All right. Moving on.
JS: So, the Tariaksuq is usually associated with shadows, invisibility, and obscurity. And they're also known as the shadow people.
AM: Amazing.
JS: Yes. Already good. They are one of those creatures that is a shapeshifter that can blend in with human societies and normal human beings. Kind of like the aswang.
AM: Terrifying.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Great.
JS: They have houses. They have families, weapons, tools, et cetera. But how do you tell the shapeshifter is not a real person is the real question.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Which I'm sure all the Inuit people were wondering.
AM: And they don't have red eyes necessarily?
JS: Well, not necessarily, but we'll see. So, the key to it is just look straight at them. They're not visible if you look directly at them much like the Ijiraq.
AM: Whoa.
JS: They either disappear into the separate spirit world that they can occupy apart from our own or they are only seen as the shadow that their body casts.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah. So, they only become fully visible when they're killed.
AM: All parts of that are amazing.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I love that like the true form is revealed in death. Like that's just really poetic --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- and interesting.
JS: And it's also really interesting, because they're supposed to occupy both our world --
AM: Right.
JS: -- and the spirit world to some extent.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it's amazing that they only become a part of our world in death.
AM: Absolutely. Right. Like they – that's, that's the fundamental – I don't know – struggle or, or like impossibility of them. It’s that they, they can't exist in both until they're dead.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It really is like shedding your --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- spirit form.
JS: Shedding your spirit form. I like that.
AM: But like let's just interrogate that for a second. Like thinking about, you know, a, a village or town, how, how does one get through life without being looked at directly? Because like that is my goal. I want no one to look at me directly ever. I just want to be able to like have my hair slightly askew and, and like a weird resting face, and just no one ever look at me.
JS: So, I – actually, I just finished John Hodgman’s Vacationland.Talks a lot about living in Maine during his summers.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And how most main people's goal in life is to never have to interact with another human being as long as they live.
AM: Identify so hard with that.
JS: I know. Me, too. And I just think about, if the Inuit culture is anything like the Maine culture, one can get through life without being looked at directly.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, I imagine that it's, it's a cultural thing. You know, you and I can sit across this table and look directly at each other as we talk.
AM: Right.
JS: But I – personally, I struggle with – when I'm meeting new people and I'm having like a conversation with them, I struggle to meet their eyes and, you know, be able to look at them as I talk and open myself up to them. So, I think that's definitely – you know, I guess it depends on the cultural thing. But we're – as a culture, we're expected to look directly at a person when we're having a conversation with them --
AM: Right.
JS: -- because it's supposed to be engaging. But I don't think all cultures are like that.
AM: No. And, for some people meeting eyes is really intimate, or it's really aggressive, or it's just, you know, not a thing that you do with strangers. And you can also I guess like discourage that by, you know, not holding eye contact with other people, you know, and just kind of letting – you know, letting that become kind of normal for you. But I don't know my mind flashed immediately to like, you know, Salem, during witch trial eras --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- where like you would go to church and you would look at every single person in that church and think like, you know, who is here, who is not, who looks suspicious, whose, you know, light was on late in their – you know, candles burning in their farmhouse last night. And I don't know. Just the like gossipy insular sort of like – I don't know – violence brewing, just under the surface nature of a small town, like that is just a trope that I find really – I don't know – fascinating. I'm sure it wasn't like that at all, but that's just where my mind went.
JS: No, I – and I totally agree. I think that it – in certain stories like this and with the aswang, it's – there's a reason that these stories are being told. And there's a reason that, you know, community has to be close knit. And, if there's an outsider, we have to discover it right away.
AM: Yeah, there's no scarier – I don't know trope to me – and I know that it’s a strong statement – than the like outsider among us.
JS: Right. And I think it's really interesting, when we're talking about duality, because I super liked this concept. It's the idea that a creature can occupy our world, have a family, be part of the community, but also truly not be there.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it reminds me of the news whenever, you know, like a serial killer or something pops up in the news, and the community comes out as shocked.
AM: Right.
JS: Like, “Oh, they were so quiet. Oh, they never bothered anyone. I thought they were a nice person,” that kind of thing. It's not till they commit this horrible atrocity or crime that you see the real them. And it's really, really interesting, especially when we're talking about this creature that occupies both spaces --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- and is able to be dualistic and occupy both of these things at once.
AM: Like that is a – that is a scary thing. And you only know in death which one it was.
JS: Yeah. So, I think it's really interesting that ,in death, you only know which one – you know, which world it's truly supposed to occupy. And that goes back to your only – you only know that the Tariaksuq is a Tariaksuq when it's dead.
AM: Right.
JS: So, when, when the town finally finds out it's committed atrocities or it finds out that, you know, the children are lost because of it or something like that, that's when the community has that information. And, anything before that, it could be that witch hunt like Salem, you know.
AM: Right.
JS: Understanding that there's someone among us that isn't supposed to be. That's such a scary thought.
AM: On the other hand, that thought is a lot easier to hold than the fact that people can be both.
JS: Yes.
AM: That someone can be, you know, a great parent, or spouse, or community member, or be nice to old ladies, you know, or like volunteer with Rotary Club and also, you know, be an abuser.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or commit crimes, or, you know, be a con man living a different life. And it is – it is very hard to like reconcile those two things, you know.
JS: Yes.
AM: So, on the one hand like, it makes so much sense that the like difficulty of that situation is represented in this myth, but also that there is that kind of, you know, not a storybook ending necessarily. But there is a some amount of certainty to it, where you say like, finally, in death, the truth is revealed, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or, finally, witch trials, you know, the, the judgment has been passed. The deed is done. Now, we know when, you know, in life, there are so few certainties.
JS: Right. And in life, you know, it's sort of the situation where you don't know what someone is capable of or their thought process until they do something that makes you think like, “Oh, oh, they're not just a normal person or, oh, they're, they're not who I thought they were.”
AM: Yeah. And I don't know. I mean the one of the modern kind of versions of this would be the kind of psychopath-sociopath type narrative, which I use it with kind of like scare quotes --
JS: Yes.
AM: Because they're – those terms are somewhat problematic. But this idea that there is, you know, walking among us and looks just like us. And, you know, it could be your boss --
JS: Right.
AM: -- or your neighbor, or whatever, blah, blah, blah.
JS: That very 80s --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- 80s hype.
AM: Exactly. And I mean like, you know, serial killer narratives. The, you know, Dexter's of the world, you know, they're so popular. And like it's, it's there in like every single police procedure. Like, every other week, there's some kind of version of this narrative. And I love it too.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, I watch Mindhunter on Netflix for eight hours straight, because the idea of, you know, people who look, speak, and act just like us until they don't. There's something really fascinating about it, but that's an example of like a modern myth and a modern duality that I, you know, see as being linked to these actually much more interesting stories.
JS: Yeah. And that's why people just eat up true crime.
AM: Yeah.
JS: People fucking love true crime. And I think it's for that reason exactly. It's you never know someone is capable of all these things, but you never know who it is. It could be your neighbor. It could be your loved one. It's like the Dirty John Podcast that came out recently.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That was pretty fucking terrifying in my opinion --
AM: It was.
JS: -- as someone who is planning on getting married soon. But I think that that's the interesting part about duality. It’s because you never know. People are capable of such good things and such bad things. And you don't know what those levels of good and bad are until they're committed.
AM: And there's – like there's so much – like I could – I could do a whole PhD on duality. Like it's just one of my – one of my most favorite subjects to talk, and think, and write about. And that like duality is potential. You know, it's, it's all of the things that you could be, worlds you could walk in, you know, behaviors or ways of being that you could – that you could do. It's also about coexisting, right? It's about existing in spaces that should be opposing or should be kind of mutually exclusive, but, instead, you can do both. And like there's something – again, all of us operate in different worlds to some extent. All of us, you know, speak or act or dress a little bit differently depending on what world we're going into. And, you know, you can take that to like the most extreme of living double lives or living between the living and the dead. And I just see that as being such a like human thing to think about, wonder about, you know, kind of speculate what it would be like to live that sort of life. And, and, finally, like I said earlier, the kind of idea of the underworlds or death as being not completely sealed off from us, not a different realm. You have to like go through a number of rituals to get too, but kind of just beyond your field of vision.
JS: That you could stumble upon at any moment.
AM: Yeah. Like just beyond the safe area, you know, of your town or in your map of being kind of coexisting in a body near yours --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- of a hand that you shake or a person's establishment that you walk into you. Like it is just thrilling in a way that is like so different from conceptions of, of death and the afterworld. Afterworlds, afterlife, underworld that we have talked and thought about before.
JS: Yeah. I'm, I'm vaguely reminded of Stranger Things if only because I am in the middle of watching Season Two at the moment.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And this idea that, you know, these two worlds can exist and, you know, the veil in which they are separated is so thin in places.
AM: Yes.
JS: That one can just stumble upon it. Like fucking Nancy and Jonathan in the woods in first – in the first season.
AM: Exactly.
JS: You could just stumble upon it, and be taken to this world that is not your own where danger lurks at any moment. And that's kind of this beautiful identity of both human beings and the world we live in in general.
AM: Yeah. And like the multiverse theory. Like, whenever I think too much about multiverses, my, my brain fucking exploits.
JS: Yep. No. I try not to think about it too much.
AM: I know, right? Like I have to – I have to like put aside time each month to like just consider the fact of the multiverse. And then – and then like go back to my normal life. But it's, it's fascinating. It's just the, the – I don't know. The strange is so much closer than we think it is.
JS: Yes.
AM: Uh, that’s right.
JS: And that's what I love about mythology.
AM: I love it.
JS: The stranger so much closer than we think it is.
AM: Yeah. And it's – and it's a way – it's a way that we can reckon stuff that is too big for our brains to reckon with.
JS: Yeah. Oh, dang.
AM: And, you know, there could be a Tariaksuq among you at anytime.
JS: Or an Ijiraq.
AM: Or an Ijiraq and you never know. But I think the one thing that you can definitely count on and that you can do for yourself proactively is to stay creepy.
JS: Stay cool.
Outro Music.
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website, spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, director’s commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share this with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil