Episode 52: NBA Conspiracies (with Mike Schubert & Eric Silver)
/We’re busy cooking and prepping for family coming into town, so our good goofy friends volunteered to take over the podcast for the week! Even if you don’t love basketball (just don’t tell Mike), we know you all love a good conspiracy theory. So stick around for sweet burns on our hosts, how many envelopes fit on the head of a needle, Yu-Gi-Oh Heart of the Cards-ing things, and why EVERYONE should love Space Jam.
The video of the ~fixed~ draft is here. Find Eric Silver on Twitter @el_silvero and @JointhePartyPod. Mike Schubert is @Schubes17 and @PotterlessPod. Be sure to subscribe to our sister shows Join the Party and Potterless in your favorite podcast player. They’re real good, we promise.
We are sponsored this week by Central Curios. If you want a gorgeous custom wand, this is THE place to go. Use code Spirits for 10% off your purchase at http://centralcurios.com!
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 52: NBA Conspiracies with Mike Schubert and Eric Silver, and Eric Schneider.
JS: I know what you're thinking.
AM: Who are all of these men?
JS: Or, why NBA conspiracies?
AM: What does that even mean? The word conspiracies is like, okay, partial Spirits territory. But you're like, NBA, I don't know what those letters are.
JS: I'm worried if you don't know what those letters are.
AM: Listen, this is the deal, y'all. It's Thanksgiving Week.
JS: We're busy.
AM: We're busy. Julia's pie. And I’m cooking a bunch. I'm making blueberry brown sugar like caramel bars.
JS: Cool.
AM: I'm very excited about it. We've been doing weekly Spirits for a month and a half.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's a lot.
JS: That's a lot.
AM: We're tired.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, we thought, "Let's just – let's just like go to a brewery and taste a bunch of flights of beer.
JS: Uhmm.
AM: And let the boys take over.
JS: The boys can just do it this week. We don't care.
AM: Actually, what happened is Mike Schubert and Eric Silver yelled at us for a year about wanting to do a sports episode. And, so, here we are.
JS: Yes. But it is a nice break for us, because we didn't have to record this whole episode.
AM: It is. And it's about very, very contemporary conspiracy theories and two very interesting ones. The way it – there's like video evidence. There's like actual stuff to look at. It's, it's way more like searchable than most of the stuff we talk about, which I think is pretty cool.
JS: Yeah. It's actually super interesting. I never was invested in sports so much --
AM: Right.
JS: -- as listening to Mike rant about cold envelopes.
AM: Yeah. And, now, we know what that means.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I also think it would be a great euphemism for pretty much anything you wanted. So, I genuinely think that you guys are gonna enjoy this episode. And I know that I enjoyed listening to it. So, thank you to the guys for taking over for the week. And, Julia, why don't you tell us about our sponsor for the week.
JS: We're sponsored by Central Curios. It is a wand making store. Our good friend, Aaron, has sponsored with us before.
AM: Our first ever sponsor.
JS: No. God bless you, Aaron. You're the best.
AM: Amazing. Longtime listeners will know that Aaron was our first ever sponsor. We are so thankful to him. We love his stuff. He is sending us wands, Julia. And I could not be more excited.
JS: Yeah. And we'll tell you a little bit more about that. But you can get 10 percent off at centralcurios.com with the code, Spirits.
AM: I know. They're beautiful wands. Beautiful gifts. If you order now, you can get them in time for the holidays. Awesome, awesome stuff. We would also love to thank our newest patrons: Kendra, Anika, Boshra, Alex as well as our supporting producer-level patrons: Neal, Chandra, Philip, Dylan, Julie, Sara, Kristina, Robert, Lindsey, JST, Sandra, Eeyore, Debra, Kimmo, Phil, Ryan, and Catherine.
JS: You guys are the Scottie Pippens to our Michael Jordans.
AM: You guys will understand what that means in a bit. It's awesome.
JS: It’s pretty cool.
AM: And, also, thank you to our legend level patrons: LeAnn, Cassie, Cammie, Shannon, Erin, Ashley, who got their first box of Spirits swag. Physical, actual stuff from us. Like gifts. You're gonna give each other gifts for the holidays, but it's gifts to you.
JS: It's so nice.
AM: And you'll be getting one more box before the holidays. There's one every single month if you donate at the legend level at patreon.com/spiritspodcast.
JS: You should do it. We got some cool stuff next month. We actually just picked them up last week.
AM: Oh , yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. So, I have half of it, and we're waiting for the other half to arrive. And I'm stoked.
AM: It's really awesome. It's like online shopping, but I don't have to feel guilty because it's for you.
JS: Yeah, it's for you guys.
AM: Two more quick things. One is that our merch distributor DFTBA is having a 20 percent off everything sale for Black Friday.
JS: Sweet.
AM: So, if you go to dftba.com or spirits podcast.com/merch, you can go there and get our t-shirt and our pin set.
JS: So, if you've been waiting for a sale, or just for your paycheck to come in, or the right moment, now is the right moment to get that creepy, cool t-shirt.
AM: This is the moment. And do you know what will be a great moment to meet us in the flesh?
JS: I do know that moment. And that is --
AM: When is it?
JS: -- 4:30 on Saturday in Seattle at PodCon.
AM: On December 9th, we will be there. We'll be doing panels. We'll be meeting you in the flesh. We'll be giving out the dopest of swag.
JS: Such cool swag.
AM: And I'm really stoked to see some of you there.
JS: Yeah. We're gonna be there with a bunch of cool audio drama creators. We're going to be there with Join the Party, What's the frequency?, Greater Boston, Our Fair City, and a bunch of others that – there's just too many to list.
AM: There's like a whole beautiful grid of podcast cover art, and it is lovely.
JS: It is. It's very pretty.
AM: Well, we wish that all of you here in the States have a very Happy Thanksgiving, and the rest of you have a very nice Wednesday, and then Thursday, and then Friday, and then the rest of your lives. And we will be seeing you next week with a whole new episode.
JS: We love you guys. We're thankful for you.
AM: We are. We are. And, now, enjoy Spirit Podcast Episode 52: NBA Conspiracies with Mike Schubert and Eric Silver.
Intro Music
E. Schneider: Welcome to my Eric, my Eric and me. I'm your oldest Eric, Eric Hamilton Schneider.
ES: I'm your middlest Eric, Eric Lauren Silver,
MS: And I'm your sweet baby Eric, Mike Schubert.
E. Schneider: Today, on Spirits Podcast --
ES: Oh, that gave me such joy.
E. Schneider: -- we've got something different for you. It's my Eric, my Eric and me, where Mike Schubert will be --
MS: Hello.
E. Schneider: -- playing the role of Julia and do a basketball conspiracy story or multiple stories for us if I understand correctly.
MS: Yes. We will have two NBA conspiracy theories that are only in my mind conspiracy theories in title, because I believe they are 100 percent fact. And they certainly happened.
ES: And I'll be playing the role of Amanda. I'm going to care only about capitalism. And I'm going to side on the side of the owners. And I think that I'm just gonna, you know, give the counterpoint and just like, "Yeah. The free market – the, the hand of the market like really deserves to play some Bball outside the school."
E. Schneider: I don't think Eric has ever listened to Spirits.
MS: No. Yeah. I thought you're gonna say I'm gonna be playing the role of Amanda. I won't understand any pop culture reference made, but --
ES: Oh, that too.
MS: Yeah. Capitalism is also a choice.
E. Schneider: And I'm gonna be playing the role of myself, dreading editing this in a couple of weeks.
MS: Oh, so good. I'm so excited about it.
ES: Well, here's the thing. We're not going to talk about dicks like we promised. We won't talk about dicks for like a lot, because it's not even like – it's not like mythological dicks. Like these are like real people I've seen on television. And I'm not just gonna be like, "You know, like Michael Jordan's dong. Like, you know, he's just like, you know, Zeus' dong."
E. Schneider: Oh, that's – no. I mean there's a very good chance we will still do a Harry Potter tangent due to Mike hosting a Harry Potter podcast.
MS: Wait. What's that? Is that true? Mike Schubert, me, hosts a podcast called Potterless. Is that the best plug?
ES: Booo! No, we're not doing plugs. No. No plugs. No plugs yet.
E. Schneider: I, I opened it right up. So, let's, let's talk about this first myth.
MS: Yeah.
E. Schneider: Or, I guess I'm used to hearing the word myth. Let's talk about this first conspiracy.
MS: So, this first conspiracy is the 1985 NBA Draft Lottery Conspiracy aka The Frozen Envelope. So, the year is 1985. The NBA is in a very interesting situation, where they are gaining popularity, but they are losing money. And one of their main revenue streams is through television deals. And their contract with CBS is set to end in 1986. So, this upcoming season for them is very important. And what they have instituted this year is the NBA Draft Lottery. So, normally --
ES: Pa, pa, pa, ram, pam, pam, pam. Sorry. I decided to just do strings.
MS: Oh, that's – well, that's NBA on NB – that's NBA on NBC not CBS.
ES: Oh, well.
MS: So, that's more in the 90s.
ES: I just want to be a part of the story, Schubes.
E. Schneider: Broad theme.
MS: No. Please. Also, please interrupt as much as you can. I'm just gonna be spitballing the truth. Please interject. It's more fun that way.
E. Schneider: Well, I just want to say the frozen envelope is very Spirits-esque.
MS: Oh, yeah. It's so good.
E. Schneider: So, we're – we're off to a great start.
MS: Oh, yeah. It's a great name for it. I'm also going to like backtrack a bit for something that makes more sense. So, here's editing. I'll talk about why it's important that they're good, before I get into how the lottery works. So --
ES: Can you mispronounce the name frozen envelope so you just like really get Julia? Got them.
MS: The frozen envelope.
ES: Got them for not showing to your recording session.
MS: So, the frozen envelope. OK. It's very important that the NBA is successful this year so that CBS wants to renew their TV contract. And the most surefire way for them to renew it is for them to have great TV ratings. The easiest way to do that is to have all the teams that are in big cities be good at basketball, because then more people want to watch them. And this is in the 80s, very different than today, where with all the streaming and NBA League Pass, you can watch any team you want at any time no matter where you live.
E. Schneider: And you can have a very good team in a not important city.
MS: Exactly. Like Oklahoma City. They're gonna be very solid. And there is nothing to do in Oklahoma City I'm pretty sure.
ES: It's what?
MS: Maybe 12 people live there.
ES: It's Russell Westbrook at 11.
E. Schneider: I was just – I was kind of opening up a way for you to insult Cleveland, but --
MS: Oh, I mean --
E. Schneider: -- you did it a different way.
MS: Yeah.
E. Schneider: So, I'll take it. I'll take it.
MS: Oh, I just tried to pretend Cleveland doesn't exist, because I don't like LeBron.
ES: Yeah.
MS: Anyway.
E. Schneider: Wait. Hold on. Wait. Wait.
MS: [Inaudible 9:03].
ES: Wait a second. This is also --
E. Schneider: I can't – I can't believe I agreed to do this.
ES: This is also coming off the early 80s when like the Blazers were really good, and they had Bill Walton, right? Was that the early 80s?
MS: I believe that's when they were solid. Yeah. But really the 80s what really rose them to fame was the Larry Bird Celtics and the Magic Johnson Lakers.
ES: Right. Right.
MS: The Showtime Lakers. That was the big – that was what really drove the popularity in the 80s. But – so, as I mentioned, the Boston, Boston Celtics, very good. Major market. Los Angeles Lakers, very good. Major market. New York Knicks, major market. Complete garbage sauce. Absolute garbage sauce, not dissimilar from how they are now.
ES: Hey, Schubes, I was gonna ask. I was like, "Hey, how bad --
MS: My beloved New York Knicks are horrible, but I love them with all of my heart.
E. Schneider: Mike is currently wearing a New York Knicks jersey and hat I think.
MS: I'm wearing a New York Knicks jersey, hat, underwear, and socks. So --
E. Schneider: What?
MS: I am ready for this podcast.
ES: Geez, Schubes.
MS: So, it is very – it is in the NBA's best interest for the Knicks to be good. And, thankfully, going into the 1985 season, they were one of the worst seven teams in the NBA. And here is why. At the beginning of the 1985 season, they instituted the first ever NBA Draft Lottery. Now, for years,they had the NBA Draft, which is similar to other sports drafts, where the worst teams get the best picks so that they can become better, parody can exist in the league, et cetera. So, you don't have, you know, the same bad teams being bad forever. The way it used to work though was that the, the worst two teams in the league did a coin flip for the number one pick. And then, you know, those are ranked one, two, and then the third worst – the third worst team got the third pick, the fourth worst team got the fourth pick, et cetera.
ES: Listen.
MS: But what this --
ES: Listen, I wouldn't --
MS: Yeah. What's up?
ES: -- even flip a coin to like decide which cookie or like side of the cookie I would share with my brother. Like we're talking about millions of dollars, and they're like, "Yeah. Does anyone have a penny?" Like can we just like flip like? Like, is that fine? Oh, god. This is like --
MS: Yeah. It's a huge difference.
ES: And then you gotta like do all this crazy conspiracy stuff to make up for the fact that they didn't plan in the future that someone's actually gonna make money off of this. It just like doesn't make any sense.
MS: So, the problem with this coin flip model is that the teams that knew they weren't gonna make the playoffs would try to lose games on purpose so they – that they could try to get a better pick. And, by lose games on purpose, what they would do is they would sit some of their best players and say they had injuries even though they really didn't or they would do trades that would trade away their best players for either young people or draft picks or whatever. And it, basically, would just make the the last third of the NBA season really boring for a bunch of the teams. So, to combat this, they created the NBA Draft Lottery. The way that this worked in 1985 was the bottom seven teams all had an equal chance of getting the number one draft pick. So, every team that did not make the playoffs had a chance of getting the number one draft pick. So, the way that they set it up – it was a live televised event. And they had this giant plastic sphere, kind of like a bingo ball sphere. And this is every – this is the point in time where anyone listening to the podcast should go to the YouTube link in the show notes that contains the video of this draft lottery, because it is a absolutely hilarious video. And it will kind of help my narration – help you understand.
E. Schneider: So, we've got the bottom – these bottom seven teams. They are all in – they're all in this ball or other teams in this giant ball as well.
MS: It is just the bottom seven teams that didn't make the playoffs.
E. Schneider: So – and then we're eventually going to get to an envelope. So, we've got a bunch of balls going down. And, now --
MS: Oh, no. So, we have one giant sphere that's like a bingo ball.
E. Schneider: One giant sphere.
MS: Like one giant --
E. Schneider: Yes.
MS: Like one of those things with a crank that spins bingo ball numbers.
E. Schneider: Right. Oh, there's probably envelopes in there.
MS: And there's gonna be envelopes inside.
ES: And then the players get inside And then they all like kind of like have to like push each other. So, like it's like a king of the hill situation.
E. Schneider: Yeah, the number one draft picks all jump in.
MS: Yes, exactly. So, yes, speaking of number one draft pick, this draft was very important, because there was one player who was far and above any other person going into the draft. And his name --
E. Schneider: LeBron James.
MS: No.
ES: Shaquille O'Neal.
MS: That would have been 2003.
ES: Everyone knows it's Shaquille.
E. Schneider: Yeah, I know
ES: Shaquille Jeremy O'Neal.
MS: The note – consensus number one pick is Patrick Ewing. Patrick Ewing just graduated from Georgetown University. He had four amazing years there. He made the NCAA finals three times. Won at once and his senior year won College Player of the Year. Like he was easily the best player in the draft. So much better than all of the other ones. And, so, if you've got the number one pick, it was life changing. And, if you didn't, you had some people that weren't that great. Let me list off the names of the other people that went after Patrick Ewing in this draft.
ES: Yes.
MS: And you can tell me if you recognize any of them. So --
ES: Oh, I'm going to. And I'll tell them the, the places that --
E. Schneider: So, I don't – I don't recognize the name Patrick Ewing. So, I --
ES: Nooo!
MS: What? Aaah!
E. Schneider: I mean it sounds like – it sounds like vaguely familiar. But, to be fair, none of us were alive when this happened. So, like it shouldn't be shocking that I don't know who this is.
MS: But he was good until the year 2000.
ES: Yeah. He played for a really long time.
E. Schneider: Yeah, but I --
MS: He played for a really long time.
E. Schneider: Yeah, but I was playing video games up until then.
MS: Well, did you not play NBA Jam? Because he was one of the best players in NBA Jam. He's the guy who has like knee pads and have a high top fade. Number 33. Oh, he's so good.
E. Schneider: I didn't play a lot of NBA Jam.
ES: This is why Schubes and I have our own podcast within a podcast, where we just talk about NBA Jam. And it's called the Slam Jam.
MS: Oh, my god, the dream. So, here are the people that got drafted after Patrick Ewing. You did – I didn't even recognize these names, and I'm terribly obsessed of basketball. Wayman Tisdale, Benoit Benjamin --
E. Schneider: My favorite.
MS: -- Xavier, Xavier McDaniel, and Jon Koncak.
E. Schneider: The best.
ES: What was that guy? Benoit Benjamin?
E. Schneider: Love those guys.
MS: Benoit Benjamin.
ES: Benoit Benjamin --
MS: Yeah.
ES: -- sounds like you're trying to sneak into a party, and you have to give a fake name. Because like you don't want people to know you're going to a party. You'd be like, "Ah, my name is Benoit, Benoit Benjamin. Yeah. Yeah. I'm Benoit."
MS: Yeah. He's so bad. I clicked on his Wikipedia page. He doesn't have a picture. He lasted three years in the NBA. They don't even list his career statistics. So --
E. Schneider: That's, that's harsh. That's harsh.
MS: So, I don't think he was very good at basketball. So, it's very important that the – that you win this draft. And the NBA has a severe vested interest in the New York Knicks winning the draft, because they will get Patrick Ewing. They will be very good immediately and for years to come.
ES: Hold on. Hold on. All right. I have to – I'm going to do the – I'm going to do some Amanda's shit right now. So, what's crazy about all this is that sports are inherently like make story. They're mythmaking. Like people do it as a relationship between people. And the reason why it's such a big deal is because people want to watch it on TV. And the economics are behind that.
MS: Yeah.
ES: So – but, when the economics – the business of sports goes ahead of the actual things we love about sports, which is that everyone has a shot, everyone loves their home team, and everyone might actually win a championship. Like it ruins the story. It ruins the whole reason why we care about sports in the first place. And that's what's so crazy about these. It's people putting business – the business of the NBA ahead of the actual people who care about it.
MS: Yeah. I mean it sucks if you are not a New York Knicks fan like I am. Like I love this story. It's great. Because we get – we get – spoiler alert, we get Patrick Ewing in the end.
ES: No. No. You ruined it.
MS: So, so, we get to the actual event itself. And this is the part where I'd say everyone go to the show notes. Watch the video because my narration will be great, but the video will help you along. So, you've got this guy by the name of Jack Wagner, who is a lawyer that works for Ernst & Whinney. And this is a fun conspiracy theory now, because he works – that's a firm that was the auditing firm of Gulf and Western, who owned the New York Knicks at the time. So, this is like extreme yarn stretching like to connect him to the Knicks, which is probably complete coincidence. But I love bringing it up, because it's a conspiracy theory.
E. Schneider: That definitely seems like a weird conflict of interest.
MS: Yeah. He's got a vague tie to the Knicks. It also doesn't make any sense why you bring in a lawyer to handle the envelopes and not someone that works for the NBA. Like it was very strange,
ES: But isn't that no different than like the Oscars?
MS: I guess. Yeah.
ES: Any award show where they have like people that comes out of like an armored car.
MS: There's armored cars at the Oscars?
ES: It's got – they always show the armored car.
E. Schneider: I'm sure the envelope – the envelopes are always like super like secret.
MS: Oh, you're right. You're right. The envelopes being handled by – okay. That makes way more sense than what I was thinking. Okay.
ES: I don't care that it's security theater. Like they can wave it over with like a TSA wand to make sure that it's the right thing. And I'd be so ready for it. I'm like, "Oh man, these awards are so secure. I'm finally going to know the Tony for like Best Supporting Actress in a play or drama off Broadway. Thank you for keeping that for me Lin Manuel." I always assumed that Lin Manuel Miranda is involved in the Tony's too. Like he's sitting in the vault as well.
MS: I mean he should be. So, Jack Wagner has seven envelopes. And these are comically large envelopes. And each envelope contains a picture of the logo of the seven NBA teams. And he approaches the giant plastic sphere, which has this big metal rod running through the middle of it that helps crank the sphere around.
E. Schneider: Now, is this stuff all just big to a normal person of average size to the standard FBI player? Like because you're saying it's very large. But like most of the people in the NBA are very large, but like most people aren't. So, is it – how – what's the – what's the real perspective here? Are we talking three times the size it shouldn't, because that's far too large.
MS: I have the video pulled up right now. And, on the stand and everything, like it comes up to this guy's torso. So, it would probably come up to an NBA player's like hip. If I had to guess I would say that like the, the, the, the diameter of this sphere is probably like five feet. It's pretty large.
E. Schneider: That seems large. That's very large.
MS: It's like – it's basically the size of like a big inflatable beach ball.
E. Schneider: Wow.
MS: Like one of the huge ones at a concert. And it's that with giant envelopes in them. And those are actually giant. Like bigger than your head envelopes.
ES: All right, Schubes.
MS: Just watch the video on the show notes.
ES: If Shaquille O'Neal --
MS: Yeah.
ES: -- was holding one of these envelopes, could he fit the whole envelope --
MS: Yes.
ES: -- in his mouth at the same time?
MS: No.
E. Schneider: How many envelopes could we fit on the pin – head pin of a needle?
ES: If Shaquille O'Neal had five envelopes in one hand and two envelopes in the other hand, how many envelopes could he put in his mouth?
MS: He'd have seven envelopes. He has seven envelopes.
E. Schneider: Okay. So, so, I assume what happens next is they, they pull an envelope out.
MS: Oh, no, no, no. You're missing some of the best parts.
ES: Oh, this --
E. Schneider: Okay. Wow.
MS: Yeah. Oh, it gets so good. So, there's this like metal rod in the middle of it. And he – Jack Wagner puts the first three envelopes under that metal. So, he opens the little latch to the sphere. And he just very gingerly drops three envelopes out of harm's way of this metal rod. He takes the fourth one. And he like Yu-Gi-Oh! Heart of the Cards it like against the middle – against the rod. Like he like flings this thing at the middle rod for no reason. I mean other than we will reveal later. So, he like flings it at the rod so it like hits it. And it like flops around. So, it like dents like the side of it. And then, when it lands, it lands on the corner. So, this envelope now has a folded corner. And then he puts in the other – the remaining three envelopes just like he did for the other ones very gingerly. Are there many? Yes. So, it seems --
E. Schneider: I see what's happening.
MS: It's very suspect that all of the envelopes are put in one way except for one. And it's going to come up later. So --
ES: Well, the thing --
MS: -- at this point --
ES: This is like a --
MS: Okay.
ES: It's like bingo . Like a bingo – I don't know. What do you – man. Yeah. You know how – have you ever experienced Bingo?
MS: Yeah. It's the thing that has all the Bingo balls.
ES: It's like one of those bingo wheels, where it's like you need a --
MS: Yes.
ES: -- like get stirred around like a KitchenAid mixer. But like he only threw one like in the actual mixing portion while the other ones could get stuck to the sides of the plastic ball, right?
MS: I mean not really. The issue is not where you placed them. It's just how he placed that one, because he put it in much more violently, which you would think is done to some – somehow like dent or fold that envelope so it stands out from the rest. Though, when he flips the rest of them, they all pretty much get shuffled around.
ES: Got it. Got it.
MS: -- about as well as a bunch of envelopes can. So, it's less about where he placed it, and more that he like banged it against the middle for no reason. And that was the only one of the seven that he did that for. So, it's not like it slipped or something. It was – it seems very intentional when you watch the video, because it's just so strange. It's just so --
ES: There's a counter conspiracy theory that Jack Wagner is also a lizard person, but that's a whole nother thing. That's a different episode. Different episode.
MS: That's whole another – y'all have to watch out on the next – yeah. That will be the next episode of Spirits. So --
ES: That's part two. Part two, where I debunk all of this.
MS: Yeah. That's --
ES: Because it's lizard people.
MS: That's, that can be the – that can be the Patreon bonus episode this month.
ES: It's like, "All right. There's this lizard people."
MS: Lizard people.
ES: All right. So, here's the thing. The NBA is all run by lizard people. Shaquille O'Neal, lizard person. Have you seen the size of his hands?
E. Schneider: It’s the only – the only possibility.
ES: I'm recording this in Amanda's apartment right now. And I like to think that I snuck back in to like do this in like the middle of the night. And like Amanda can walk in halfway through, and she's like, "Eric, what are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm recording the lizard people episode. What do you think I'm doing?"
MS: Oh, man. So, so, he closes the latch to the big sphere, and then grabs the crank, and then mixes up all the envelopes. While this is going on, David Stern, the Commissioner of the NBA, is standing off to the side staring at the sphere incredibly intently. Like he looks so serious and uncomfortable. It's great. Which you'd have no reason to do this unless you had a specific goal in mind, which was pick a particular envelope.
ES: I think it's also important to talk about what David Stern looks like. David Stern looks like a vice principal with way too much power.
MS: Yeah, accurate.
ES: So, he's just like – he's very --
MS: David Stern is also one of the shadiest men ever.
ES: So shady.
MS: -- in history.
ES: Like he's looking out for a reason to like get you to lose your off campus lunch privileges. So, it's like, if he is looking intently at something --
MS: Oh, yeah.
ES: -- it's dangerous.
MS: Definitely. So, he's looking super intensely at the sphere. Jack Wagner finishes spinning them around. David Stern approaches the sphere and opens the latch. Now, the way that the envelopes are kind of shuffled around – there are three envelopes stacked on top of each other pretty close to the opening of the latch to the sphere. So, you think he's gonna just probably grab the one that's on top. You know, like a human. But what David Stern does is he grabs those three that are all stacked, and then he flips them all over like in one motion. So, the one that is on the bottom is now on the top. He then grabs that one off the top, holds it to the audience to the cameras, and says the team's logo that is within this envelope will have the number one pick to the 1985 NBA Draft. And, of course, if you watch the video – and the camera's like right up on the side. And you can see it. It is so easy. You can see the folded corner of the envelope. So, when Jack put it – put it in violently, it very much made one of the corners very folded in that envelope. And that's the one that David Stern ends up picking with this weird maneuver. Like no one does that. It's not like he just stuck his hand in and then shuffled them around or like disperse them when you're normally grabbing a piece of paper.
E. Schneider: He grabs three and flips them.
MS: He grabs three. Yeah. It's so weird. Like no person on Earth would ever do it. So, he like grabs three, flips them, takes that one, holds it up. It happens to be the one with the folded corner. And it also happens to contain the New York Knicks logo. Meaning, they win the 1985 NBA Draft Lottery. They get Patrick Ewing. And they go on to be very competitive for the next 15 years, but win zero NBA championships.
ES: Ain't nobody can tell me nothing, because I'm on my way.
E. Schneider: So, why is it called the frozen envelope?
MS: Yeah. I was gonna say people are probably wondering. There's no freezing part in this. So, there – when this happened --
E. Schneider: I was expecting it frozen in air or like some kind of ice demon was involved.
MS: Oh, of course, yes, naturally.
E. Schneider: Like, like some kind of some kind of mythological freezing issue.
MS: So, they're --
ES: You cut out the whole part where David Stern uses his ice powers to blind everyone in the audience, and then he grabs it.
MS: Oh, right, I forgot. I forgot. So --
E. Schneider: Yeah.
ES: It shows up really clearly on the tape. It's very weird. It might be doctored. I don't know. It's like 1980s.
MS: When the Knicks won this, a lot of people thought this was BS. Like a lot of people thought that there was some sort of foul play involved. So, one of the theories that developed was that, prior to bringing out the envelopes, they had put the Knicks envelope in the freezer, not long enough where it had condensation around it but long enough where it'd be cold to the touch so that, when David Stern was feeling around and grabbing the envelopes, he would know which one was the Knicks' because it would be cold. Now, I don't think this is true, because of the flip maneuver. It wasn't like he touched every envelope. He just like flipped those three. So, it seemed more like he went for the folded corner, but frozen envelope just sounds way cooler than the dented and folded corner envelope of the bingo sphere. Like --
E. Schneider: I mean it's, it's possible he was just like – now, what if – what – and like he was trying to feel all three envelopes so he grabbed three of them. Maybe his thumb felt some coldness.
MS: Exactly.
E. Schneider: But the real question is what if none of those were cold.
MS: Yeah. That's the thing. It would have been real bad.
E. Schneider: Then like does he just gotta take them and like toss them aside gently, aAnd go checking out the other four? Maybe one of these is the cold envelope.
MS: Yes. Now, you could say that, that the frozen was to be like there's two ways to check. So, either one will be dented if Jack successfully hits it on the middle thing or it'll be frozen. So, there's like two ways to figure it out. But, regardless, it's just pretty much forever known as the frozen envelope, because, as you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, it's just got a dope name. And it sounds super cool.
ES: I feel like this – anything affiliated with the NBA still needs a cool name. Also, the frozen envelope sounds like --
MS: Oh, yeah.
ES: -- a street ball player nickname.
MS: Oh, yeah, Jimmy, the frozen envelopes myth. Yeah.
ES: It's a combination of Iceman and, and the Mailman. So, it's just like they're - your combining --
MS: Oh, yes.
ES: They've ran out of nicknames. So, they're combining two, two real NBA nicknames together.
E. Schneider: It's like how they come up with the horse racing names, because you can't – you can't have --
MS: Oh, yeah.
E. Schneider: -- two horses named the same thing in all of the history of horse racing, which is why you get crazy horse names.
ES: Wait. That's why?
MS: Uh huh. Yeah, it's like a combination --
E. Schneider: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: -- of the mom and dad horse or whatever.
ES: So, now --
E. Schneider: Yeah. So, like, yeah, we all may get into horses. We don't want to be too much like my brother, my brother and me.
ES: So, now, I need to start. I gotta go out, and I gotta get up a filly named, Blue Eyes, and a mare called White Dragon, and then put them together.
MS: Yes.
ES: This is a very long con. So, I can have a Yu-Gi-Oh inspired --
MS: No, it's a good joke.
ES: -- inspired horse. Like, "Excuse me. I have to – we have to postpone the podcast."
MS: My favorite horse racing name that I ever heard was a Hoof Hearted. So, Hoof Hearted. So, when the announcer says it really fast, it sounds like "Oh, who farted, who farted, who farted." Oh, so good. Whoever came up with that name is a genius.
ES: Hoof Hearted by two lengths was really funny in the locker room later.
MS: So, yeah, that is the frozen envelope NBA conspiracy, which is probably one of the most widely accepted and believed to be true theories, and my personal favorite.
E. Schneider: Now, if I'm looking at the clock, it looks like it's halftime. So, I think we should go get some good concessions.
MS: Oh, my god.
E. Schneider: And we'll be right back. We'll be right back.
MS: Oh, my god.
ES: Eric, buy me soft pretzels, please.
E. Schneider: We'll be right back after this.
Midroll Music
JS: Okay. We're back.
AM: Hey, we checked in to make sure that the house hadn't burned down, because we let the kids use the stove.
JS: Yes.
AM: And we're actually okay.
JS: It seemed like it's okay. They went and got some soft pretzels. We're fine.
AM: We're fine so far. And overpriced beer, but like, hopefully, they’ll be buying more for us.
JS: More beer is always good. This week we are sponsored by Central Curios. Aaron, our good, good friend, makes every wand himself. And they are all real wood and naturally finished. So, there are no artificial colors or dyes. He's just really good at finding cool exotic woods to use.
AM: Yeah. And these – like, listen, y'all I've been in a Harry Potter fandom for a long time. I never bought a wand, because I thought like, "Uh, I'm not going to get a plastic one. I'm not gonna go to Disney and like spend another like hundred plus dollars. Like that's just – that's just a lot."
JS: It's Universal, but okay.
AM: That one too, the one in Florida. But, listen, if you can like support a, you know, independent craftsperson, if you can buy this incredible, you know, piece of art that is matched to your personality. Like he'll ask you what House you're in, like what kind of stone you want, what kind of wood is right for you. I'm totally into that. And I'm lucky because Aaron is gonna send us some wands.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I'm really excited about it.
JS: And, honestly, Aaron does some really cool work. He does hand carving. He does wood burning. He does stone inlay. He did this really cool one that I saw on his Instagram, which you should definitely check out @Central Curios.
AM: @Central Curios.
JS: And it's just – it's inlay with Malachite, which is a bright green stone.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's super, super cool. But, basically, every wand he makes is totally unique. He never remakes a wand. Every wand is made to order and made specifically for you. He'll even send you a certificate of authenticity that talks about the wand lore and why the wand's individual personality is unique to you.
AM: I'm actually kind of mad that Aaron is sponsoring us this week, because this would have been a really good holiday gift for you, Julia. And I, I completely slept on it.
JS: Honestly, Aaron kind of puts Ollivander to shame. I'm gonna say it right now.
AM: I know.
JS: It's pretty fucking cool.
AM: I know.
JS: He does great stuff.
AM: Because like Ollivander, they're all like pretty much the same, right? Like it's just a wood. It's just variable lengths. And this wand, you can get a holder. You can get a stand. You can get stone. You can get all kinds of amazing stuff. You guys really will have to see it for yourselves. It's like a whole nother level. So, he is @CentralCurios on Instagram. And you can get 10 percent off your order in time for the holidays, or afterward, or treating yourself, or your birthday, or whatever – Winter Solstice, if you use the code, Spirits, at centralcurios.com.
JS: Yep, 10 percent off. And you get one of over 500 different wands that Aaron's made. So, he's basically a wand expert at this point.
AM: I know. It's amazing. And really, even if you just follow his Instagram, it's completely worth doing. So, thank you so much to Aaron, our very first sponsor for bringing things home as we round on our second anniversary. We really do appreciate it.
JS: Oh – and, Aaron, congrats on your engagement.
AM: Yey. Everyone is getting married. It's very happy.
JS: It's great.
AM: Good. Well, Jules, I think that the, the call of the void returns. We have to go back to the brewery. Maybe – oh, can we get some barbecue right now?
JS: Oh, my god, barbecue. Yes, please.
AM: Okay. Let's turn the mic back over to the boys and get back to the episode.
E. Schneider: So, Mike, what is our next NBA conspiracy myth that we've got?
MS: Our next basketball conspiracy revolves around the first retirement of Michael Jordan, who is the greatest basketball player to ever live before Eric asks, "Who's Michael Jordan?"
ES: I'm sorry. Who is Mike – Michael Jorben? I don't – I don't hear the – who's – who are you talking about?
E. Schneider: This joke is terrible. Terrible. Every time he does it.
MS: So, you guys may know Michael Jordan is the best basketball player to ever live. You also may know him from Oscar snub film, Space Jam, which is the greatest piece of modern cinema to ever exist.
E. Schneider: It's a good film, but a better website.
MS: Wait. What website? Come, comeonandsl.am?
E. Schneider: No. No. The Space Jam website is still up to this day. And it has not changed. It's like 1995 or 6?
MS: Yeah. I thought you're referring to comeonandsl.am, which just has Charles Barkley's face flying across the screen with 20 different Space Jam theme song remixes that play at random. Michael Jordan, now, many people will know that he's the greatest basketball player to ever live. What some people don't know is that he is easily the most prolific gambler of modern sports. He betted – he gambled on anything and everything. And there's two stories that really stand out about it. The first of which is, you know, how at sports games they'll do those things on the screen where they'll – where there will be like a boat race or a subway race. And it's all computer graphics. And the audience has to decide, you know, "Oh, I think the D train is gonna win or like I think the blue boat is gonna win or whatever." So, those are always like randomly generated. But Michael Jordan, during pregame, would talk to the guy running the video board, and he'd be like, "Hey, which train is gonna win the subway race?" And they gotta be like, "Oh, the B train." And then, during a timeout, when they play it, he would turn to Scottie Pippen. And he'd be like, "Yo, I bet you $500 the B train wins." And then Scottie would be like, "You're on." And he did that to Scottie Pippen for an entire season before Scottie caught on.
E. Schneider: Wow.
MS: That he was cheating you every single time.
E. Schneider: So, wait, he won every single time.
MS: Every single time.
E. Schneider: You'd think, after three, Pippen would just be like --
MS: Scottie Pippen is notoriously not one of the brightest NBA players --
E. Schneider: You know what?
MS: But, also, maybe he spaced it out, where he didn't do it every game. And --
ES: But, wait, who is – this is important.
E. Schneider: There are a lot of days in the NBA.
MS: Yeah, there's 82.
E. Schneider: It would – first off, he was trying to make like $500 every single game.
MS: Another really fun gambling story is that back in the 90s, when teams didn't have private jets, the team would have to fly commercial. And they'd have to check their luggage. So, Michael Jordan bet everyone on his team that, when their check bags came out of the machine in baggage claim, that his would be put first, because he's Michael Jordan. And they're gonna treat him special. So, he bet all of his teammates hundreds of dollars, and, of course, his bags came out first, because, before the flight, he bribed the crew a bunch of money to put his bags out first when they landed.
ES: It's amazing.
MS: So, Michael Jordan used to gamble a lot and also used to cheat in his gambling a lot. So, he's a very prolific gambler.
ES: It's not even that Michael Jordan wants to gamble. It's that he wants to gamble and win, which is a --
MS: Yes.
ES: -- which is a lot more --
MS: Because he's so competitive.
ES: -- like him as a player. And, also, this thing that he did would – has trickled down to the modern NBA now, Like Kobe Bryant is the – is – would be like the disciple or the follow up. I mean just in terms of like – Listen, Schubes, I hear you. I see your, your Knicks' face getting stanky. But --
MS: No,, no, no, no, no.
ES: Like I said, this idea of the – whoever is the best person in the NBA, also needs to be hyper focused and hyper competitive and be cutthroat and also like do this to his teammates. This isn't even just Michael Jordan messing with other people. This is Michael Jordan messing with his co-workers. What do you think of it like that? Imagine one of his co-workers was like, "Hey, I bet I can, I can throw this piece of paper into this garbage can? Yeah. I'll bet you $20." And then he has it fixed, and he bets you that every Monday for like an entire year. Like, no, I'm gonna go to HR by fifth and be like, "Sorry, Steven, keeps stealing my money. And I don't appreciate it."
E. Schneider: So, what you're gonna go to HR, because you're gambling with your coworker at least? I don't think that's how HR works.
ES: Sorry. He's fixing it. Like if you somehow like put a string on the piece of paper.
E. Schneider: I know, but I don't think HR deals in gambling-related like incidents, whether or not they're fixed or not.
MS: Hey, HR is fine with everybody playing fantasy football. That's just gambling wood style.
ES: March Madness.
E. Schneider: I – no, I agree. I agree. HR, for the most part, would not care that you're gambling. I don't think they're gonna step it if one co-worker is fixing it on another. They're not like THE law when it comes to inter coworker gaming rules.
ES: Oh, yeah. Steven was betting me money a lot, and I kept losing. And, also, he drew penises on the piece of paper. And it was really --
E. Schneider: Now, now, the second part, you might have something to go on.
ES: And this is like it's not a really safe work environment. And I need to stop losing $20, because then I have to buy them so much chipotle. And it's just making my work environment really tough.
MS: Okay. Anyway. So, there are also some instances of Michael Jordan gambling that was like more problematic. So, the first couple had to deal with him and golfing. So, he was a big golfer and used to gamble with the friends that he would play with. And, at one point, he was found that he wrote a $57,000 check to a guy by the name of Slim Bouler, who is a golf shop owner and also a drug mule for a local kingpin. Jordan first lied that he was alone, but then the, the situation went to trial because of trouble that Slim Bouler got into. And he had to – on – he had to testify that it was because of gambling stuff.
ES: Slim Bouler sounds like the name of someone from The Wire. Like David Simon's like, "Yeah, man, I knew like a guy name Slim Bouler --
MS: Oh, yeah.
ES: -- back in my old days. I really want to give him a shout out and put it in The Wire.
E. Schneider: So, like he was giving him money, because he was – was he like a bookie for Jordan?
MS: Yes, something about that.
E. Schneider: Or, like why was Jordan giving him the money?
MS: Something, something, something in regards to that. Slim Bouler had connections to being a bookie.
E. Schneider: Because that's the perfect name for a man who's a bookie, who runs a golf shop, and is often down there.
MS: Yeah.
E. Schneider: It's like the perfect name --
MS: Yeah, the best name.
E. Schneider: -- for a bad combo.
MS: Oh, yeah.
E. Schneider: Like you – like it's such an unbelievable three things. Yes, two of those are very illegal. So, I guess those go together.
MS: But then golf shop owner.
E. Schneider: But then you just add in like golf shop owner. You're like, "Yeah. What a --
MS: Yeah.
E. Schneider: -- perfect name for this man.
MS: Eddie Dow had – he was in a similar type thing, where he was involved in drugs, and betting, and Maf – you know, not good people type stuff. Like I don't want to say he's in the Mafia, but it's like mafia-esque, where he was murdered because he owed a lot of people money. And, when they came upon his estate after he was killed, they found checks written to him by Michael Jordan that totaled $108,000. All just weird gambling type stuff. The final one of which was a book was written called Michael & Me by Richard – I think it's pronounced Equine, but it's – or Equina, but it's spelled Esquinas, E-S-Q-U-I-N-A-S. So, I'm really playing the role of Julia here. I'm gonna go with like Richard Esquinas, and I have no idea. So I'm really Julia-ing it up. I'm so excited for everyone on Twitter to be like, "Actually, Richards, my brother and the last name is pronounced like this."
ES: Oh, Richard's my uncle, and Michael Jorben is a very close family friend.
E. Schneider: It's weird how many of Zeus' relatives are on Twitter and app reply when we get the names of the Greek gods wrong. It's very strange.
ES: Yeah. You know, you're [Inaudible 39:30].
MS: Oh, dang it. I'm – oh, man. I'm playing the role of Julia. And I said the Boston Celtics. And I really told myself all week that I was gonna pronounce it the Boston Keltics. And I forgot. Nooo! So, anyway, Richard, insert last name, wrote a book called Michael & Me. And he revealed that, at one point in time, Michael Jordan owed him $902,000 from golf gambling, because they would just bet a lot per hole and then there'd be double or nothings involved, all sorts of stuff like that. These gambling things, the gulf ones, had come to light. And people – and they were kind of like meddling on the surface. But the big one that actually caused a problem was during the 1993 Eastern Conference Finals, which is the round prior to the NBA Finals. He was playing against my beloved New York Knicks. And, at one time, during these – during the playoff series, the night before a game, he was found gambling in Atlantic City, New Jersey until 2:30 in the morning. Now, I don't know if you guys know where Atlantic City is, but it's in like southern New Jersey. So, to – and they were – their next game that – like later in that day at, you know, 8:00 PM or whatever it was in New York. So, the earliest, he could have gotten back to his hotel in New York was probably 4:00 in the morning. So, he's basically out until 4:00 in the morning gambling, and not necessarily, you know, winding down and relaxing. He's probably drinking lots of alcohol, smoking, cigars, gambling, taking – you know, doing whatever. Not the most – not the healthiest stuff. And then supposed to play basketball game later that day. And, of course, they lost. And this became this whole big hubbub where it was like, "Oh, my gosh, if Michael wasn't gambling so much, I bet he would have played better. And they would have won the game." So --
ES: This is kind of tied to what we said before about the only time that people actually step in is because of business reasons. I mean there have been plenty of stories, where people or NBA players have gone out all night. And then were super hung over, and then played anyway. I mean, especially in the 80s, like before athletes like really took care of their bodies, and it was like a whole thing about their health and like their brand. Plenty of people have done this. But, as you're gonna see, like, because it happened in the Eastern Conference Finals. And it was on – this was the Game Six? Game Seven?
MS: It was – no, it was Game Three.
ES: [Inaudible 41:48]. I mean the fact is --
MS: So, it was early on, on. But still it's in one of the most important rounds of the playoffs. And it is the number one player in the league. So --
ES: Like it's the playoffs.
MS: -- kind of just stand out.
ES: Michael Jordan draws everybody. This is going to be a nationally televised game. It's still everything that happens is because business people are stepping in to do something.
E. Schneider: How many championships has Jordan and the Bulls won at this point?
MS: So, at this point, they had just won their third in a row. So, it --
E. Schneider: In a row. Right.
MS: This is 1993. They go on to win the finals that year.
ES: Right.
MS: So, that is their third consecutive NBA Finals, which is very rare. Very few teams have ever done that. So, Michael Jordan is the best player in the league by far. He is on the best team in the league by far. And, during that offseason, a month before the season starts in early October, he decides that he's going to retire from the NBA. And he lists two reasons for it, both of which I think are not the real reason. And the conspiracy theory is what is the real reason why he retired. Because why would you retire? If you were the greatest player on the greatest team at the peak of your fame, why would you leave the NBA? The two reasons that Michael Jordan cites. The first of which is that he just kind of got bored with the competition. He just thought it got stale. And he was growing – you know, there was no real rival to him. No one could really step to him. And he cited that as one of the reasons that he retired. Now, going --
E. Schneider: A much better competition in golf at that point.
MS: Well, he goes on to play Minor League Baseball, which is interesting.
E. Schneider: Also, baseball got real.
MS: But like seeing how, how he would do anything to win things as silly as dumb bets with his teammates, I think that is completely false. Because, if he's in a situation where you can still be competitive and still win, there's no way he would want to leave. I think that's complete fabrication.
ES: True, true, true.
MS: The other reason that he listed – and this is a little more unfortunate – is that it has to do with the death of his father. So, his father, that summer, three months prior, had passed away. His father was murdered in an attempted robbery. So, his father was like over at a rest stop driving back from a trip. And these guys came into the rest stop and tried to rob the stuff out of his car while he was sleeping in the – in the front seat at the rest stop. And he woke up, and they shot him. And that – so, it's like super unfortunate just that his father was murdered. Terrible.
E. Schneider: My gosh.
MS: His father had always envisioned Michael as a professional baseball player. Michael Jordan played baseball growing up. He was good, but not as good as basketball. His father, James Jordan, I think had a minor league baseball career as well. I don't think he ever went on to play in the majors, but he had a stint with professional baseball. So ,Jordan's second reason – reasoning for retiring was so that he could pursue a career in baseball. Jordan goes on to play in the Chicago White Sox Minor League team, which was owned by the same guy who owned the Bulls. So he had like a clear in to get on a team. Those are the two reasons he lists.
ES: Even though it sounds really flimsy to us now, I mean, imagine the best player in the entire – in all of sports really, the best at what he or she does, goes up and says these two reasons. I mean he – I remember watching a few videos, where he would do these press conferences and he'd talk about his dad. And, of course, like there's genuine emotion there, because his dad just passed away. When we're talking about sports, I mean, we can't discount like all these ideas of fathers and sons and masculinity. Like, if he says it's going to be about his dad, who's gonna step to him and tell him that fulfilling this, this wish that his dad had for him is not a reason. And I mean it's not even like he wished it – like he would have been like a professional figure skater. Like something that maybe was less – it was like less masculine or doing something less athletic. Like going and doing a business --
MS: Or something that he didn't have history doing.
ES: Right.
MS: Because he played growing up.
ES: And like but he still tied. Like it's still sports. It's still something that he's skilled at or, in theory, skilled at. And it's still in Chicago. So, these still ideas of who we know of Michael Jordan, like it can still tie into this idea that we have about like sports and professional sports players.
MS: Yes. And the other thing is that it could be a valid reason. I just don't think that it is the reason that pushed him over the edge. And I will get to – so, it could have been like a factor and something that he may have been thinking about doing, because, you know, we all grieve in different ways. But what I think is the true reason – and it just kind of piggybacked on to these other things – was – had to do with his gambling stuff. So, after his Eastern Conference Final Atlantic City thing got a bunch of news, the NBA opened an official investigation into Michael Jordan's gambling problem, because they wanted to first check off and make sure he wasn't doing a Pete Rose situation, where he was gambling on his own team or his own performance. Because then you get into integrity issues. They wanted also to make sure he wasn't doing anything illegal. And they also just wanted to make sure if he was okay and if they needed help. So, they launched this official investigation into his gambling problems. And that's fine. And that seems normal. But what is not fine and what does not seem normal is that three days, after he announced his retirement, the investigation was dropped. And they said they found nothing conclusive to point to any gambling issues with Michael Jordan, which seems super fishy. Like three days.
E. Schneider: So, was it like designed to get him out? And like it was kind of like, "You know what's coming. So, we're gonna do this." So, like kind of he'll hide for a little bit. Or, or what?
MS: So, it's hard to – yeah. So, it's hard to say. And here is one reason. A lot of people think that David Stern, as we've mentioned, shady guy, still Commission of the NBA at this point. Same guy from the 1985 story. He probably or people believe that he went up to Michael Jordan and said, "Hey, we have this investigation going on. We don't want to find you guilty," because, at this point in time, Michael Jordan is the NBA. Like he is the reason that it is so popular in the 90s.
E. Schneider: Oh, yeah.
MS: He's the best player. Everyone loves to watch him. It's similar to LeBron but if there was just no one even close to being as popular to LeBron. Like there's no Steph Curry or Kevin Durant, where people love watching them. It's just it's Michael Jordan and everyone else.
E. Schneider: Yeah.
MS: And, if you – if it's found that he has a serious gaming issue and maybe has NBA integrity gambling issues, that just ruins the league. So, it's in David Stern's interest to kind of make this not an issue. So, the, the reason that people think David Stern had a hand in this is because, during Michael Jordan's initial press conference where he announces his retirement, he hints at coming back into the league. He mentions that this baseball thing might just be temporary. It could just be an experiment that he wants to do just to see how it goes. And he says, "You know, who knows?" He says, Who knows? Maybe, later down the road, "if David Stern will have me back in the league, I'll play basketball again." So he mentioned, if the Chicago Bulls want me, if my teammates want to play with me, and "if David Stern lets me back into the league," which is ridiculous wording for a situation in which – like there's no reason why he would bring that up. He's the most popular person ever. If he wants to be back in the league, there's no one that is going to say no to him. And David Stern doesn't ever not let people in the league. That's not how the league works. If a team signs you, you play. So, for him to say that makes you kind of think that David Stern might have had a hand in him stepping away from basketball for two years.
E. Schneider: Also, like I don't watch a ton of like basketball press conferences or sports press conferences in general. But I feel like you typically don't name the commissioner.
MS: Oh, very rarely.
E. Schneider: Very often – the commissioner is pretty much only discussed when we're talking about like some kind of outside thing or this – these players did this and Roger Goodell has made a statement.
MS: Sure.
E. Schneider: I can't remember the, the current NBA Commissioner's name. It's, it's --
ES: Adam Silver.
MS: Adam Silver.
E. Schneider: I knew it was Silver. I couldn't remember the first name.
MS: Is he your brother, Eric? Is he your brother?
ES: Yo, what's up? Adam Silver is my second cousin. And I'm going to be bald like him. And you better get on my level. No, he's not my second cousin. Keep up, Schubes.
MS: Hey, I don't know man. You both live in New York. You both like basketball. Clearly, you're related.
ES: Third NBA conspiracy, I'm related to Adam Silver.
E. Schneider: We've busted – this is the first time we've had breaking news --
MS: Breaking news.
E. Schneider: -- on Spirits. Yeah. But, yeah. So, like it seems very odd that he would call out the commissioner by name like that.
MS: Yes.
E. Schneider: Doesn't – that doesn't happen.
MS: It's weird to drop him by name. And it's weird just to say the phrase, "If David Stern would have me back in the league." It's just – it's not like a normal phrase that people just happen to casually say. It's, it's – so, that just seems odd.
E. Schneider: Was Jordan like particularly humble? Like was – I don't – I don't really remember his general appearance.
MS: Oh, no. Oh, my god. Michael Jordan – Michael Jordan was one of the biggest trash talkers in the world.
E. Schneider: Right. He was – he was crazy. So, like, like this idea of like this humble part of like, "Oh, if I'll have me back," it's like he – like Jordan knew how good he was.
MS: Oh, yes.
E. Schneider: Like there's no reason he would be like, "Mmm. Maybe. Like, I guess I could get back into basketball. I'll take another shot at it."
MS: Yeah. No. He's not, not a humble man in the slightest. So, basically, he goes on to play minor league baseball for a year and a half. And he misses the entire '93 and '94 season.
ES: For the Birmingham, the Birmingham Barons.
MS: Yes, the Birmingham Barons, who were the Chicago White Sox Minor League team. Misses the entire '93 and '94 season. He misses most of the '94 and '95 season, and then plays the last I think like 10 games, and then the entire playoffs in 1995. Doesn't win the championship that year, but then they go on to win three more consecutively the following years. And he goes back to his amazing basketball abilities.
ES: Now, Schubes, I want to take this away from you for a little bit, because I did some research that I want to show you. And this is so prolific. It's so like part of the pop culture arena that this becomes --
MS: Oh, yes.
ES: -- part of a burgeoning of a little media market called video games.
MS: Uhmmm.
ES: In 1994, the EA, EA, Electronic Arts, gets the rights to Michael Jordan.
MS: Oh, I did not know this game was made by EA. Yeah.
ES: Gets the rights of Michael Jordan and creates the game, Michael Jordan: Chaos in the Windy City. And this is for Super Nintendo. Here – you guys, I don't have the box right in front of me, but here it is. Michael Jordan is just like --
MS: Oh, I've seen it.
ES: -- the fucking – the most – the name Michael Jordan is like the most text arted thing possible. And Chaos in the Windy City is just like italicized like stuck next to him. Michael Jordan looks extremely pained like you are doing in like your sixth grade school picture. He's just like the grimace on his face. And he is holding two basketballs; one in each hand. One is on fire, and one is covered in ice.
MS: Check the show notes for a picture of this cover art.
ES: Now, Eric, I just want to – I'm going to quickly read you the plot to this – to this game.
MS: Okay.
ES: It is two sentences. I promise.
E. Schneider: Okay.
ES: Before the Scottie Pippen charity game – let's just start – let's start there with Scottie – remember Scottie Pippen, he's best friend on the – on the Bulls?
MS: Yeah.
ES: Also, got the rights to Scottie Pippen apparently. A little before the Scottie Pippen charity game, Michael Jordan's teammates are abducted by the mad scientist, Maximus Cranium. The protagonist must save them before it's too late.
MS: A bit lame.
ES: That's it.
E. Schneider: That, that's it.
ES: And, basically --
E. Schneider: What kind of game was this?
MS: Oh, it was like a side scroller video game.
ES: Yeah.
E. Schneider: So, this is like similar to Michael Jackson's Moonwalk video game.
ES: Yes. It's, it's – yeah, exactly like that.
E. Schneider: Yeah.
ES: But, instead of dancing and throwing his hat, Michael Jordan had different like types of basketballs that he could throw at people. He can also dunk as a secondary attack.
E. Schneider: I love it.
ES: This is also extremely important that, at that time, GamePro gave the game a positive review.
MS: Whoa.
ES: But, even though it was blatant product placement, they still said it was actually pretty fun and had some complex levels. But, later in '99 – in September 1997, Nintendo Power voted on the 10 worst games of all time. And this is – we're talking about like – this is right at – this is after the video game, Crater, in the early – in the late 80s, early 90s --
MS: Yeah.
ES: -- where like they made the worst games of all time. Michael Jordan: Chaos in the Windy City placed at seventh worst game of all time.
MS: Ughh!
ES: The game was not --
MS: No.
ES: The article said the game was not too poor.
E. Schneider: That's really bad.
ES: But it was a waste of a license.
MS: Wow. Oh, my goodness. So, it got to be because of lost opportunity. My favorite thing about it is that you – as Eric mentioned, your – one of your secondary attacks is to dunk a basketball, but there has to – you have to be at a point in the level where there's a rim and a backboard. So, the bad guys, who have stolen all the Michael Jordan's basketball playing teammates, put – installed a bunch of rims and backboards into their evil lair so that Michael Jordan can do his super move, which is to dunk and then like everyone in the level dies.
ES: Listen, even – even villains – even super villains --
MS: It's ridiculous.
ES: -- need to abide by the Geneva Convention, where you need to give your prisoners something to do. And they're basketball players, and they need basketball hoops, obviously.
MS: Oh, yeah.
ES: So, this is just to say --
MS: Oh, my goodness.
ES: This is just to say that --
E. Schneider: Isn’t that the truth.
ES: -- this was such a thing. Like this wasn't just restrained to basketball. The fact that Michael Jordan took time off for a year and a half --
MS: Yeah.
ES: -- like was part of the public knowledge enough that they like got the license for Michael Jordan that he was not playing basketball at the time.
MS: And it also could add to the conspiracy theory that Michael Jordan was very much okay with his absence from basketball. The reasoning behind it being construed in a bunch of different ways so that the real story might get lost, because Space Jam was about it. There's video games about it. Like there's all these other things that happened to deal with, "Why did Michael Jordan leave?" So, that could play into the conspiracy that he doesn't want anyone to really know why he left. And the – and the whole thing of getting an athlete just to step away for a couple months to let some sort of investigation wash away has worked in the past. And, most recently, it worked with women's tennis. So, you know how Maria Sharapova and Azarenka grunt really loudly when they play tennis? It's like, "Oww, aww."
ES: Of course.
MS: Like all that annoying stuff. There was a – the, the USDA was going to make the line judges wear decibel monitors around their necks. And, if they grunted at a certain level – if it was too loud, they would have automatically lost the point. And this was getting a lot of traction until Maria Sharapova was kicked out of the league for two years for steroids and Azarenka was pregnant and took two years of maternity leave. And, once they were out of the league, they stopped developing that whole thing, because nobody cared anymore. And, now that they're back in the league, people are starting to think about doing it again. So, the whole just step away and let this kind of wash away technique works. And that's what the conspiracy centers on David – you know, that David Stern did to Michael Jordan. He said just go away. Let this whole gambling thing kind of – everyone will forget about it. Everyone will just talk about the fact that you've left, and that you're bad at baseball, and that why would you leave basketball. They'll worry about that for two years. You come back. Everything's fine. You stop gambling. You get your S word together. And you're good to go. So, yeah.
ES: Schubes, I don't know – I'm not really sure why you censored yourself.
MS: That is the Michael Jordan conspiracy.
ES: You just too heated.
MS: I wanted – I forgot – I know that Spirits is --
E. Schneider: You swear on this podcast, and you swear on your own podcast.
MS: Okay. Well, you know, I want to give a good – I want people to think I'm – no, I don't. I curse so much on Potterless.
E. Schneider: Mike, thank you so much for these NBA myths, conspiracies, stories. Very different for Spirits, but also really, really interesting stuff. So, where can everybody find you?
MS: I thought it was loose enough to fit into the myth thing. Oh, everyone can find me at this fun little podcast that I've got called Potterless, which is the journey of a grown adult me reading Harry Potter for the first time. Basically, I've never read Harry Potter at all until I was 24. And then I picked up the books and started making a podcast about it. So, every episode is me going over like three to five chapters of Harry Potter. And I just go through the plot without any sort of rose-tinted glasses or nostalgia factor. I will call up things that don't make sense. Like the fact that Sirius Black, a convicted murderer of 13 people, was found in the school. And they didn't send the kids home. They just got hall monitors. So, I'll make fun of stuff like that. And the person – the people that are on the podcast are always Harry Potter experts, many of which – the entire Spirits team has been on.
E. Schneider: Yes.
MS: And Eric, Eric silver is to be on a future episode. So, a whole bunch of good guests there that know a lot about Harry Potter. So, you get a good dichotomy of I know nothing and they know everything. And I'm super biased, but I think it's a fun time. So, yeah, Potterless. Where can people find you just generally on media?
E. Schneider: Oh, PotterlessPodcast.com is there for all those podcast things. But, if you want to find just me, I'm @schubes17, S-C-H-U-B-E-S17, on all those social medias. And, Eric, tell us about yourself and Join the Party.
ES: Eric, Eric, would you like to thank me for all my good color commentary that I made?
E. Schneider: I – also, Eric, thank you for joining us as well. And tell us all about where we can find you and Join the Party?
ES: What up? Okay. I am one of four producers of the D&D storytelling and collaborative storytelling podcast, Join the Party. We're creative. We're fun. We play Dungeons and Dragons, but it's for gaming veterans and beginners alike. It's character focused. We have a lot of crazy things going on. And I am the dungeon master. So, I just like keep coming up with crazy things. And, Amanda, who you might know from Spirits, and Brandon and Fish, the players just respond to it. And we have a really, really good time. If fantasy evangelists, robot detectives, and queer, cool teens appeal to you, I think this is the place that you can check us out. So, we are Join the Party. You can find us on iTunes or our website at jointhepartypod.com. If you want to find me, I am @El_Silvero at pretty much everything. you can hit me up on Twitter @El_Silvero.
E. Schneider: Thanks. You can find me pretty much everywhere @I'mEricSchneider. And you can find Spirits @SpiritsPodcasts on Twitter and spiritspodcast.com. And I don't know how to end the podcast. So, simply we do kind of creepy, kind of cool. But, now, we should do something basketball-related.
MS: Praise be to Kristaps Porzingis.
ES: Jesus.
MS: Our Lord and Savior.
ES: Kristaps Porzingis sounds like a myth from, from Eastern Europe.
MS: From Latvia.
E. Schneider: Yeah. He really does. He really does.
ES: Yes.
MS: He, he is a seven foot three Latvian man, which is pretty much a Eastern European.
ES: He's a Latvian unicorn, blesses the American, American folk hero.
MS: God, I love him with all of my heart.
ES: Kinda donkey, kinda cool.
MS: Kinda donkey, kinda cool.
E. Schneider: Well, kinda donkey, kinda cool. We'll be back with a normal episode of Spirits next week.
MS: Oh, yeah.
ES: Come on and slam. And welcome to the jam.
MS: And welcome to Spirits Podcast.
ES: Pam, pam, pararam. Pam pam.
MS: We should have started with that. Come on and slam. And welcome to Spirits Podcast. I'm Eric Schneider.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website, spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, directors commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil