Episode 332: Rumpelstiltskin
/This week, it’s Rumpelstiltskin. Amanda reflects on pre-industrial revolution girl bossing, Julia starts singing her social security number into the breeze, and how parent’s need to learn better lies to brag about their children.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, forced marriage, threat of violence, revolution, anti-semitism, kidnapping, body horror, racism, blood, and illness.
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is episode 332, Rumpelstiltskin, which I hear Julia after the process of preparing this episode, you can now spell.
JULIA: I can spell it correctly on the first try, and that is the most proud I have been in a really long time.
AMANDA: I'm proud of you, too.
JULIA: Thank you. It's more difficult than you think. You look at it, and you're like, oh, I probably know how to spell that. Know the L doesn't go where you think it is, and there's an extra L in there as well. An extra T weren't expecting that T.
AMANDA: Well, I'm so excited to learn about the story, which I think I have a very simplistic understanding of, but I bet is a more much stuff that I remember.
JULIA: I just had so much fun when we were working our way through the story of Pinocchio. And while obviously, that was like a very chunky story told over multiple months through a magazine, which again blows my mind, that it was a time period where there was magazines. It had me thinking about other fairy tale characters that I very much enjoy. And Rumpelstiltskin is one that like really does stand out to me. So Amanda, I do— I want to ask you, what do you remember about the story?
AMANDA: It is mostly, you know, sad, sad cry—
JULIA: Fair, fair.
AMANDA: Someone is spinning straw into gold. Someone is taking advantage to someone else. And they have to guess his real name and they can't do it, and that's essentially what I got.
JULIA: Okay, I mean, you did hit a lot of the points. And it really does kind of the specifics are all about the version of the story that we're gonna be telling. But just for a little bit of context for our listeners, before we dive into the actual story of Rumpelstiltskin, it was, of course, a German fairy tale collected by—do you want to guess?
AMANDA: Is it the Brothers Grimm?
JULIA: Of course, it is the Brothers Grimm. It was part of their 1812 collection, children's and household tales. And then with a more expanded and stylized revision of the story in the second edition that was released in 1819.
AMANDA: I don't think it's occurred to me until now how mundane the idea of a household tale is.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And I get what they're saying. which is, you know, it's like stories people tell each other at home. But it's like, like household recipes, like household cleaner. I don't know just like the most mundane version of a thing, that's about it.
JULIA: Yeah, no, it's— I love the idea of like, these are stories that we tell around the fireplace. These are stories that are oral tradition has told again and again and again, and now it's time to publish those. And I'm like, I like what you're doing Brothers Grimm, the outcome is not fantastic, but I like what you set out to do. As we know from all the other Brothers Grimms collected stories, they obviously predate the publication as I was implying there. And the research from Durham University actually traces his story back to around 4000 years ago. Though many scholars point to a reference to the tale in a Roman history that was published in the first century C.E.
AMANDA: No way, that's much older than I would have guessed.
JULIA: Isn't that wild? Yeah. And we'll talk about that a little more because really, the origin of the story is about names. And I think that'll be like kind of our closing thoughts. So keep that in mind as we—as we go through these different tales and the Rumpelstiltskin tale as a whole.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: As I mentioned, there are various other versions of the story. Most of them are European, the Irish have The Lazy Beauty and her Aunt which I really like.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: There's the Scottish whoopaty story, there is an Arabic story with similar bits that translates to he who talks too much. And a Japanese tale similarly referred to as The Carpenter and the Ogre, which is actually one of my favorite variations of this story. My favorite however, Amanda, of all of these variations, just name-wise, like not even just like the bits of the story, but name-wise, because they're always about the name right? There's an English story that is called Tom Tit Tot.
AMANDA: Tom Tit Tot?
JULIA: Tom Tit Tot.
AMANDA: That sounds like a potato dish and I want it.
JULIA: It does. Ooh, describe what you think that dish is for me, please?
AMANDA: I think it's a mix of Tom Ya, like a Thai situation mixed with like—
JULIA: Like coconut soup, yeah?
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. With like, maybe like a spicy almost like scalloped potato, like potato discs in like a spicy coconut based. You know, lemongrass eat curry situation.
JULIA: I can make that. I can make them right now if I wanted to. Wow.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude.
AMANDA: Ghoulia, tell me a story and then I'll give color commentary.
JULIA: Now Amanda and our listeners, I want you guys to very like gently imagine you're—I don't know, like four or five years old, maybe six. You're tucked into bed, and now one of your grandparents is coming to tell you a story, except it's me. I'm your cool wine aunt, Julia and I'm here to tell you the really fucked up story of Rumpelstiltskin.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's like 7:45 pm and you're giving us a bedtime story, so you and the parents can get a little bit drunk and hang out downstairs.
JULIA: Correct. Why else would you tell a bedtime stories? For ages old that is the reason why bedtime stories have been told.
AMANDA: I love it.
JULIA: Once upon a time, there was a miller who was poor, but who had a beautiful daughter. Now it happened that he got into a conversation with the king. And to make an impression on him, he said, I have a daughter who can spin straw into gold.
AMANDA: Okay, just right off the bat here. He was poor but rich in his other possession, which is a beautiful daughter. Okay, alright, I mean just how— how things were to a certain extent, but like I see it there. Secondly, if the daughter cannot in fact spin straw into gold, that's a wild, that's lie to say.
JULIA: It is. It's also I was reading the like annotated version of this, and it is somewhat implied in the original tale, that it wasn't actually that she could spin straw into gold, but rather her hair was so beautiful, it was like straw that turned into gold.
AMANDA: Oh, okay. I thought you were gonna say that she's like really good with spinning which I'm like word that's good, that's helpful. But alright, let's— let's see what happens here.
JULIA: So the king said to the Miller, that is an art that I really like. If your daughter is a skillful as you say, then bring her to my castle tomorrow and I will put her to the test. When the girl was brought to him, he led her into a room that was entirely filled with straw. Giving her a spinning wheel and a reel he said get to work now, spin all night, and if by morning you have not spun this straw into gold, then you will have to die.
AMANDA: Whoa, whoa.
JULIA: I'm sure this was not the implication that the old man the Miller was originally trying to get his daughter into.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: But come on, come on guys.
AMANDA: Julia, imagine you're on the Amtrak and you went into Joseph R Biden and you pass him in the—in the cafe car on the Amtrak which he loves. And he's like, hey, nice day we're having. You're like it sure is, [7:48] have a beautiful day I have ever seen where I'm from in Vermont or whatever. And then he's like come to the White House and make the day beautiful or else you will die.
JULIA: It's on you to make the day beautiful.
AMANDA: Yeah, like he truly— I mean the dad like brag about the daughter fine, but like I don't know, that's making small talk. And if—if the king is like oh, hi, what—what society you know contributions do you make? You're like oh, my daughter is beautiful and has an art. This is setting yourself up in a way that I don't know if the dad could have expected.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, if we've learned anything from like Greek mythology and hubris, you don't brag about your accomplishments ever. Just don't do it.
AMANDA: That's true. You should have been like yes, my king good ruling, goodbye.
JULIA: Yes. My daughter is beautiful, yes, but she has no skills, you don't want her.
AMANDA: No, I mean even just saying that she's beautiful, that's like asking for the daughter to be made a queen which given this king's immediate first idea is make the straw into gold or else you die, maybe not a good idea.
JULIA: Unless you want to go all claim and [8:45] him and become queen, then immediately kill him. That would be my goal here.
AMANDA: Which Listen, Julia, that was girl bossing before the Industrial Revolution.
JULIA: It's true.
AMANDA: And I'm not going to judge any girl for doing that.
JULIA: Nor should you. Nor should you. Girls, do what you had to. It was pre-industrial times, we get it.
AMANDA: This is spiraling out of control. Okay, go on, go on.
JULIA: So the king then he himself locked the room and she was there all alone. The poor miller's daughter sat there and for her life, she did not know what to do. She had no idea how to spin straw into gold. She became more and more afraid and finally began to cry. I mean, that's how I'd handled the situation too. There's really no solving the situation. You're locked in a room with a bunch of straw, you're being told, turn it into gold. What are you gonna do?
AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, you've got all night minimum give yourself a little bit of time to cry, and then you can figure out what to do.
JULIA: Exactly. I always feel better when I have a little cry.
AMANDA: Me too.
JULIA: So no shame. No shame for a little cry. No shame.
AMANDA: Well, bath and cry, you know.
JULIA: My favorite combo bath and cry. Then suddenly, the door opened. A little man stepped inside and said, good evening, Mistress Miller, why are you crying so? Oh, answered the girl. I am supposed to spin straw into gold and I do not know how to do it. Sure. Yeah. The little man said, what will you give me if I spin it for you? My necklace said the girl. The little man took the necklace set down before the spinning wheel and whir, whir, whir, three times pulled and the spool was full. Then he put another one on and whir, whir, whir, three times pulled and the second one was full as well. So it went into morning, and then all the straw was spun, and all the spools were filled with gold. At the sunrise, the king came and when he saw the gold, he was surprised and happy. But his heart became even more greedy for gold. He had the miller's daughter taken to another room filled with straw, it was even larger, and he ordered her to spin it in one night if she valued her life. You're a king, there are better ways or easier ways to get gold than this.
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: Taxes for instance.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And then hopefully you tax them too high, and then they rebel and they kill you. You know, just the way of Kings. Just the way of Kings, we've all watched Game of Thrones. We know what's it about. You raise those taxes because you go to war, they'll kill you. So the girl did not know what to do and she cried. Once again the door opened and the little man appeared, he said, what will you give me if I spin the straw into gold for you? The ring from my finger answered the girl. The little man took the ring and began once again to whir with the spinning wheel. By morning he had spun all the straw into glistening gold. The king was happy beyond measure when he saw it, but he still did not have his fill of gold.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: He had the miller's daughter taken to a still even larger room filled with straw and said tonight you must spin this too. If you succeed you shall become my wife. And so he thought to himself, even if she's only a miller's daughter I will not find a richer wife in all the world.
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: Great. When the girl was alone the little man returned for a third time. He said what will you give me if I spin the straw this time? I have nothing more that I could give you answered the girl. Then promised me after you are Queen your first child— a classic Amanda, this is where we get the firstborn child story from, this is great.
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean yeah also the Torah and then here as well.
JULIA: That's a God thing not a sacrificing to a small man who's spinning stuff thing stuff.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Who knows what will happen thought the miller's daughter, not knowing what else to do, she promised the little man what he demanded. In return, the little man once again spun the straw into gold. When in the morning, the king came and found everything just as he desired. he married her. And the beautiful miller's daughter became queen.
AMANDA: There it is.
JULIA: There it is. A year later she brought a beautiful child to the world. She thought no more of the little man, but suddenly he appeared in her room and said, now give me that—what you promised. The Queen took a fright, this man just appeared and she hasn't thought about him in a year.
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: And offered the little man all the wealth of the kingdom if you would let her keep the child. But the little man said no, something living is dear to me than all the treasures of the world. An interesting statement, something living is dearer to me than all the treasures in the world, because he really wants a baby, huh?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Why you want that baby so bad? What are you gonna do with that baby? Amanda's theories, what would he do with that baby? Maybe he just wants a baby?Maybe he just wants to adopt?
AMANDA: I'm also picking up on notes of like, you know, the anti-semitic like blood libel trope here of you know, someone associated with wealth, was sort of like, you know, powers relating to gold that aren't accessible to the main protagonist and like their society, and certainly this idea of like, you know, Jews wanting Christian children, which is super explicit in other Grimm fairy tales. And I think just sort of like a tasting note in this one.
JULIA: A gentle bouquet of antisemitism.
AMANDA: Yeah. But is really powerfully and interestingly, re purposed in Naomi Novick's novel Spinning Silver, which is truly fucking powerful and incredible, and features the daughter of a moneylender named Miriam, who is tight as fuck. So for anyone else who wants a little—a little palate, cleanser, and chaser, I highly recommend that novel.
JULIA: There we go. So the Queen began lamenting and crying so much that the little man took pity on her and said, I will give you three days' time. If by then you know my name, then you shall keep your child. Three days time, Amanda again, the magic number of three happening here.
AMANDA: The folkloric numbers, yeah, for sure.
JULIA: Love the folklore numbers. So the Queen spent the entire night thinking of all the names she ever heard. Then she sent a messenger into the country to inquire far and wide what other names there were. Imagine being that messenger—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —where you just like, you just want me to go and find out all the names? Okay.
AMANDA: Yes, my lord. Yes, my lord, whatever you want my Lord. Yes.
JULIA: Yes, my queen. Yes, my queen Your Majesty, yes of course. When the little man returns the next day she began with Caspar, Melchior Bowser, and said in order all the names she knew. After each one, the little man said, that is not my name. The second day, she sent inquiries into the neighborhood as to what names people had. She recited the most unusual and most curious names to little man, is your name, perhaps beast rib, or mutton calf or leg string?
AMANDA: These are incredible.
JULIA: These are great names, I want to name all my pets these names from now on. I am a big fan of Beast Rib, that sounds like Zoid from the TV shows Zoids that I watched as a child.
AMANDA: I was gonna say it also sounds like a dish you could order it in medieval times.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like, you know, they— they call soup you know, like, dragon's blood. And it's like, yes, Beast rib. And it's like, man, that's— that's a beef rib, but okay, let's— let's go for it.
JULIA: Yeah, it's a real—it's a real roast beast situation from How the Grinch Stole Christmas. You're right on the money as always.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: But he always answered Amanda to these wild names that she's putting out there, that is not my name. On the third day, the messenger returned and said, I have not been able to find a single new name. But when I was approaching a high mountain in the corner of the woods, there were the fox and the hare say good night. Love that, that's an incredible moment.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: I saw a little house. A fire was burning in front of the house and an altogether comical little man was jumping around the fire hopping on one leg and calling out today I'll bake, tomorrow I'll brew. Then I'll fetch the Queen's new child. It is good that no one knows Rumpelstiltskin is my name.
AMANDA: Oh Julia, this is the original bond villain telling you the— you know keys to the dismantling the bomb.
JULIA: Classic villain monologue, I see where you're going.
AMANDA: Exactly. Yeah.
JULIA: We love a classic villain monologue where they're like, you're gonna die soon, so I'm going to explain exactly how if you weren't about to die, you could ruin my entire plan.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Because I'm so sure I got this plan down pat., it's all good. Villains, listen. Hey, my name is Julia. it's nice to meet you. I'm turning around in my chair right now. I got a backwards hat. Villains, you don't need to tell anyone your plot, you can just do it. And then you can brag about it after.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Let it happen first, you know. I know it's your hubris, but come on.
AMANDA: Julia, last night I rewatched Logan Lucky with my husband, Eric because he went on a podcast talking about it, which was extremely good, and I will link it in the show notes if it's out by the time this episode comes out, which I think it will be. That movie, like so many good heist movies, in my opinion, does the wonderful thing of like, you know, the plan works, and then later you find out why. And it's—I love that, it's like it's a flashback to what they put into place before the–you know, the climactic scene happens to like make it possible.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And I love it because A, the tension is relieved, but B there's a little bit of mystery, And that— that is the true opposite to the villain monologue.
JULIA: Yes. I also love that about heist movies. I love that you can see all the parts but you can't see exactly how they're going to fit together.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: It's also what I love about like Columbo and the new show Pokerface where it's the how to solve it rather than the who done it. Where it's like, alright, we know how the murder happened. So how does the detective or person figure out how it was done, that's my favorite.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Alright. So the story continues, which you can imagine how happy the Queen was when she heard that name. Soon after the little man came in and asked, now madam queen, what is my name? First, she asked Is your name Coons? No. Is your name Heinz? No. Is your name perhaps Rumpelstiltskin?
AMANDA: Oh man really dragging it out, really for the reveal.
JULIA: The devil told you that, the devil told you that shouted the little man. And with anger, he stomped his right foot so hard into the ground that he fell in up to his waist. Then with both hands, he took his left foot and ripped himself up the middle into.
AMANDA: Oh, okay.
JULIA: And that's the end of the fucking story.
AMANDA: Now Julia, you—you paint us a wonderful word picture of you know being a kid, going to sleep, maybe at the dinner party downstairs, we met your grandparents' house like I did often growing up, I'm not sleepy after that.
JULIA: Now imagine that was the end of the story and it's just like and he ripped himself in the middle into. Okay, good night.
AMANDA: Bye.
JULIA: What?!
AMANDA: That's the real like, can I get another story please, I beg you moment.
JULIA: Yes. So that is a wild ending. It is not the only version of the ending. So basically, there is a comparison of three different versions of the tale that I found. One from 1810, one from 1812, and one from 1819. So that was the ending from the 1819 version, but in the 1812 version, he simply runs away never to return. Fine. Sure,
AMANDA: Someone gave the Grimms some punch-up notes, and they were like, hey, this has to be you know, you got to really up the— up the ante here.
JULIA: Yes, but the one that I liked the best is the 1810 version, which is a much more bare-bones version. The— the Brothers Grimm really kind of stylize the story as the publications went on. But in this version of the story when his name is revealed, Rumpelstiltskin flies out the window on a cooking spoon, which is big Baba Yaga energy, and I really love to see that.
AMANDA: I love that too. God. I wish.
JULIA: So Amanda now that we have touched on our Rumpelstiltskin story, and we want to dive a little bit deeper into it, but let's do that as soon as we get back from our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: So now Amanda, I have a—I have a bone to pick with cocktail people right now.
AMANDA: Oh really?
JULIA: Yes. So if you Google Rumpelstiltskin cocktail, the first thing that comes up is a shot that is equal pours of rumple mins, which is basically peppermint schnapps.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: And gold shocker, which is cinnamon schnapps with gold flakes. And this just sounds horrible.
AMANDA: That sounds bad.
JULIA: It sounds very bad.
AMANDA: I'll take a peppermint, I'll take a cinnamon camby. I don't want those two in my mouth at the same time.
JULIA: No, it just seems very warring, doesn't it?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Like it doesn't seem good. People who have tried this, let me know if it's good. But it just seems like an affront to my tastebuds, and I normally wouldn't say that about most alcohol.
AMANDA: No, I can't remember you at any point in this podcast being like that drink is bad. Which is not like something someone poured you at a party that they shouldn't have done, but like damn.
JULIA: Yeah. So instead, what I'm going to do is I'm going to focus on the spinning straw into gold aspect of the story, and I'm going to plug the Gold Rush cocktail, which I'm pretty sure we featured on the podcast before, but it's a classic. It's a play on a whiskey sour, but it's got a little bit more of like a sweet honey twist to it. And it just works better here than whatever that was.
AMANDA: Yeah, love it.
JULIA: It's just like—I tried to imagine what that would taste like in my mouth and I can't, I simply can't do it.
AMANDA: Especially something with gold flake it really smacks or schnapps, if you will, of being chosen only for the visual, which has a place in cocktails and getting a beautiful cocktail is the reason I don't know, for me mostly that like I go out for cocktails in the first place. It's very pretty and then taste nice, and you know, I can smell a lot of herbs and whatever. But that just I—no, thank you. No, thank you.
JULIA: Listen, we all grew up with super bad. We're have a super bad growing-up age. So we remember like gold slugger seemed like a great idea at the time. Like that was the Holy Grail of that movie is they needed to get a bottle of gold slugger so that they could sleep with Emma Stone I think question?
AMANDA: I simply don't recall.
JULIA: I simply don't recall. But anyway, it's not as good as they made it. It seem like it is, I'm just going to tell you now.
AMANDA: Like— like many things, like most— most shots that are not just well whiskey or tequila with a— with a beer shot combo in my opinion, not— not for me.
JULIA: Amanda did I tell you that my local dive bar now has beer shot combos on their menu?
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, take me there.
JULIA: Anytime, babe, anytime.
AMANDA: Ohhh.
JULIA: They have my favorite one which is the– The Quint named after the surly sea captain from Jaws, and it is a Narragansett lager and a shot of apricot brandy.
AMANDA: Oh my god. Julia, clear your schedule, I'm coming. If not this weekend, the next weekend. I'm calling it.
JULIA: Fantastic. Fantastic. Just— it's so good. You wouldn't think it would work, but it was so fucking good.
AMANDA: Narragansett has that like oyster shell-like, shell fishy little undertone that frankly is delicious.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: And that goes well with fruit.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Fuck, it's so good. Fuck.
JULIA: Anyway.
AMANDA: Damn, shit.
JULIA: We're here to talk about more of this little man.
AMANDA: Fine.
JULIA: Fine. I know, we can talk about beer shot combos all day, but we're talking about Rumplestiltskin. Rumplestiltskin truly a beer shot combo when you think about it?
AMANDA: Oh, Julia. Okay, I've invented the Rumpelstiltskin, are you ready?
JULIA: Go for it.
AMANDA: It is a wheat beer. A summery, like summer wheat beer with a shot of let's think about that, I didn't think further than the beer part.
JULIA: No, you're right, you're on the money.
AMANDA: Gold, maybe like a repisodic Tequila.
JULIA: I love that.
AMANDA: That's what we're doing.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: It's honestly one of my favorite beer shot combos, which is a modelo special, and—and just whatever to kill they have on hand. So I'm calling it Rumplestiltskin is a wheat beer and a shot of reposado tequila and reading past guest Veronica Seamus's article on modern Jewish responses to antisemitism and fairy tales. Woo!
JULIA: Woo! We could also do the episode that she was on as well.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Alright, so the story of Rumpelstiltskin, as I mentioned earlier in the episode is obviously not the only version of the story, right? So we've chatted on the show about the Aarne- Thompson-Uther Index, which for those of you who don't remember, is basically used to help catalog folktale types, and Rumplestiltskin falls under the category in the index called Guessing the Helpers name, or the name of the helper.
AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, this idea of like the true name and not telling the fe your name, and like you know, your name holding power is one of the things I remember being so enrapturing to me as a kid reading fairy tales. And I always love when we have a chance to revisit this idea on the show.
JULIA: Absolutely. Let me tell you a couple more versions of the story and then we will circle back to the— the true name is magic or the true name is power trope, alright?
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: As I also mentioned before, there are several stories that fit into this category as well as Rumpelstiltskin, like the English Tim Tit Tot, or Duffy the Devil. So I really liked the Tim Tit Tot version, because it's about a daughter, who has basically like an Amelia Bedelia-style confusion at the beginning of the story.
AMANDA: I never read Amelia Bedelia. What is—what is the gloss on that?
JULIA: Amelia Bedelia is basically like she— she's like a nanny, she does housework and stuff like that, so she's kind of like a maid, right? And she doesn't understand terms of phrases. So like, if they ask her to like, do something she'll do the literal meaning of that, an not what they actually intended, so let me— let me look up an original Amelia Bedelia confusion thing here. So for example, she interprets a request to put the lights out as a request to physically put the light bulbs outside.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: Stuff like that. You know, if—if she is asked to dust something, she'll cover the house and dust rather than quote-unquote, “undusting things,” you know what I mean?
AMANDA: A classic caper, and I'm sure a neurodiverse icon.
JULIA: In Tim Tit Tot, the daughter has This kind of Amelia Bedelia-style confusion, where her mother tells her to put some pies in the window so that they can come again. Which means like the overbaked crust will soften up because it's outside.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: However, the girl thinks that they'll come again as in they'll just like reappear. So she's like, well if they're going to come again, I'll just eat these now. You know, I'm hungry, and I want to eat so she ends up eating them. Then the mother is like, hey, go get those pies, and the daughters like weird they didn't come back. And so the mother's like, goes outside, just like I need time away from you right now.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: So goes outside to start spinning, and she's singing the song about like how her daughter ate five pies. And then a King comes walking by as she's outside singing and spinning. And she becomes too embarrassed by her daughter's misdeeds that she's like, oh, no, I actually said that she spun five skeins of yarn.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And the kings like, wow, that's an impressive thing to do in an afternoon, and I need a wife. I'll marry her, you know?
AMANDA: Oh, okay. I mean, this—this king so far is a little more practical. It's like, you know what, one of the things my wife needs to do to contribute to our household as I'm King, is in fact to spin yarn. So great.
JULIA: Yeah. But five skeins is a lot, for—for a Lady. And so the king tells the mothers he's like, so she can have all the things she wants for 11 months out of the year. I'll buy her beautiful dresses, she can eat whatever she wants, she'll live the life of luxury. But in the last month of the year, she'll have to spin five skeins every day for me, and if she doesn't, I'll kill her.
AMANDA: Alright. Remember that thing where I said that this king is more reasonable?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Take it back. Take it back.
JULIA: Yeah, so the moms like that sounds great. and I'm sure the king will forget all about that deal. So this is a great marriage for my daughter and sends her off. And of course it—
AMANDA: Oh boy.
JULIA: —it goes how you think it will, 11 months goes by, and then the king takes her to a room and it's like, okay, five skeins or your head comes off.
AMANDA: Oh, boy. I mean—I know you're not asking me to find relatability in the mom here, Julia. But you know, to her credit, I to I've been in situations where I'm like, yeah, this is a future me problem, and I'll figure it out next time.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, we've— we've talked about like in the Beauty and the Beast episode, like how these kinds of marriages would go for people in these time periods.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And it was about you know, like trying to provide both yourself and your child the best life possible. Even if it wasn't a great situation.
AMANDA: Yeah. No, it's a legal and economic sort of risk arbitrage. And, you know, it is what it is.
JULIA: Much like in Rumpelstiltskin, she cries, and then along comes this little creature who they describe as a basically an imp, they describe it as a small little black thing with a long tail. And similarly, the deal is I'll spin the flax for you, and you may guess my name three times every night, but after the month is up, you shall be mine. So instead of like promising a child down the line, they're just straight up like, you're gonna marry me instead. Which, okay, fine. But this girl is able to suss out the name after her husband, the King comes the final night and tells her like, oh, I was out hunting and I came across this strange old creature who was saying that his name was Tom Tit Tot. And that gives her what she needs to get out of the deal.
AMANDA: Just listen, if— if guessing your true name is the answer to the riddle, don't— don't ever say it. Don't ever say it.
JULIA: Especially don't sing it out loud.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Where people could hear you.
AMANDA: I know, just like ambiently the way I sing like Queen and Billy Joel around my house, just like singing my true name.
JULIA: Yeah. I like people who like make-up songs while they're like doing—doing stuff like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —I'm washing dishes and my name is Julia. Like that would—that would be me, I would give up my true name and people would be like, haha, now I power over you.
AMANDA: I don't know Julia. I don't think that you would be like gardening outside sort of singing your social security number into the breeze, like that doesn't feel like you.
JULIA: It's so funny.
AMANDA: You're like, no, Paulie Walnuts' local squirrel is definitely not a man transfigured into a squirrel. Let me tell you all my personal identifying information. Like when my mother was born, the name of model of my first car.
JULIA: Here's my mom's maiden name and 807905. That's not my social security number, don't come at me.
AMANDA: Yeah, like, like every law and order phone number, it's 212-555-5555.
JULIA: Yes, of course, classic. That's also one of my favorite things is like if I can't explicitly figure out where a like TV show or movies taking place.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But they provide an area code, I immediately look it up and I'm like, where's this place?
AMANDA: [36:21] Julia.
JULIA: What can I say, Amanda, I need to know things. So there's another version of this story that's an Italian version of the story. It's called [36:32] [36:35] love it. And I love the way that it describes the like, main protagonist girl in This story, which is quote, she was not an ugly girl, but she had the flaw that she was always too smart for her own good. And she would rather eat and be lazy than work, which like, same girl. Let's hang out. Let's hang out, you sound great.
AMANDA: Yeah, you're wearing a sweatshirt Julie that says, rigatoni. I think you guys could get along great.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. And all I want to do is eat Rigatoni and not work.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Here we are. So basically, in this version of the story after being a smartass to her mother, and again, it's kind of almost another Amelia Bedelia situation where her mom tells her, hey, for dinner, cook us a couple of kernels of rice, and she literally only cooks two kernels of rice. So basically a distinguished gentleman overhears the mother scolding her daughter and asks what's up? And so the mother lies and she's like, oh, my daughter, she spun seven spindles, and I don't want her to overwork herself so I'm scolding her, cause she's too industrious,
AMANDA: Fascinating. I—I love how it's— it's, you know, moms trying to save face for their kids who sort of aren't, you know, adhering to traditional feminine stereotypes [37:52]
JULIA: Well, again, I think a lot of it has to do with like, this random gentleman has just appeared at our doorstep, maybe I can marry her off. And that's usually the case of it. So the gentleman wanting to marry such industrious woman whisks her away to the house and marries her. And so he puts her in a room of the first day and it's like, alright, it's been for me, and she's like, I don't wanna, and he's like, do you think I took you for a wife so that you would not have to work? If you want to be lazy, you can go back to your own house.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Which is direct quote from the story.
AMANDA: [38:24]
JULIA: That man said that to her. You're like, damn, alright.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: So once again, she's gotten to that situation where she got to do some spinning, a small man comes in and offers his services to her in exchange for her becoming his if she cannot guess his name. Again, classic beat-for-beat. Unlike the rest of the stories though, the story doesn't end when she's able to guess [38:47] name, because her husband still expects her to spin.
AMANDA: There's no out.
JULIA: There's no out here. Interesting. However, I know that I have a very clever aunt who is unmarried.
AMANDA: Hey, spinster at, get at it.
JULIA: And so she's like, clever aunt, what do I do? And so the aunt basically creates like, the medieval version of a blood packet for her.
AMANDA: Oh, some stage makeup, let's go.
JULIA: And fills it with like, chicken blood and grease.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: And then so the young woman like kind of positions herself and starts spinning, right? And then she squeezes it against her body, like underneath her armpit.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And like, it starts bleeding and dripping grease and her husband is like, what the fuck is that? And she's like, oh, I developed this boil from all the spinning that I'm doing. Oh, but my husband you want me to spin right? And he's like, that's fucking disgusting, you never have to spin again. Don't worry about it.
AMANDA: Damn, ingenious dude.
JULIA: I love the ending to that one, it's so good. It's like an additional bonus story to the Rumplestiltskin story.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: And it's like mwa, chef's kiss.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: And then before I also mentioned the Carpenter and the Ogre, which is a Japanese story, which does not feature a woman doing any sort of like weaving or spinning, but it does have very similar bits to it.
AMANDA: Alright, let's go.
JULIA: So in this story, there was a very dangerous river that was surrounding a town. And the townspeople were very frustrated because of how isolated it made them, right? However, every time they tried to build a bridge to Ford, the river, it would be destroyed by the rage of the water, not a good time. So the townspeople pooled all their money together and hired a famous carpenter from another village who was famous for building the best bridges, right?
AMANDA: Alright, smart.
JULIA: Imagine like, your whole thing is like, yeah, man, I build bridges. I'm known far and wide for being the best at building bridges.
AMANDA: You know, we haven't had such a cultural figure here in the US, Julia since Ty Pennington, back when Extreme Home Makeover was the–the nation's hit. And we did not know as a culture about the tax ramifications and terrible construction that– that show was rife with.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. RIP. It was a better time than when we didn't know all about that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So the carpenter comes to the village, but upon seeing the river, the carpenter is terrified, and he is so sure that he will never be able to build a bridge here, the waters are just too rough, they're too scary, it's just going to be impossible. So as he sits there, and he contemplates how he could possibly achieve such an impossible task, a huge oni or ogre, appears out of the forest and says, oh, you must be the carpenter that the village hired. I'm super strong, I could build that bridge for you if you wanted my help. And the carpenter is one terrified of this giant scary ogre. And two, is like, yeah, okay. And the oni is like, alright, I'll build that bridge for you, and then you'll give me your eyeballs and exchange. And he's like, huh, what?! And then the oni disappears.
AMANDA: Oh, no, you can't just do that.
JULIA: No, he can't. So the oni disappears, he becomes a shadow, sinks into the water, and the carpenter is so scared that he just like runs away. And he hides— hides. Basically, Amanda hides under the covers of his bed and is like, what deal did I just make? What's going to happen when all these villagers find out that I can't make this bridge, etc, etc.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: So he falls asleep. and he wakes up the next day, and he hears all the villagers crying out there, like the bridge, it's beautiful, amazing. Oh my God. And the carpenter is like, I gotta go just like flees the village, right? Because he knows that now that the bridge is built, that only he's gonna come collect his eyes.
AMANDA: Yeah, of course.
JULIA: So however, as he is walking through the forest, he hears a bunch of little small oni singing how like, oh, they're gonna eat, our dad's gonna bring us some human eyes too, it's gonna be delicious.
AMANDA: Oh, no, not the babies.
JULIA: So he's like, oh, no, if there's babies around, that means the big oni is going to be around, and he tries to flee.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Caught by the ogre immediately. The carpenter begs for his eyes saying that without them, he won't be able to work and feed his family.
AMANDA: But he have a little oni children?
JULIA: I— The oni point he said that he has a family to feed too. Amanda, exactly. You see, you see. So he makes a deal with him, he's like father to father. If you can guess my name in three tries, I'll let you go. Sure. Great, right?
AMANDA: I mean, very kind of him to just build this bridge for free then.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. So the carpenter is like, alright, I'm gonna take a guess on the first one. You're really big, maybe you're the first oni. He's like, nah, nah, that's not me. And then he picked some like very scary name, because he's like, you're—you're big and scary, maybe it's this. And he's like, no, no, no. And then he remembers Amanda, those little oni children. They had been singing in the woods, and they referred to their father as Oni Roku.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: They're like, oh, daddy, Oni Roku is gonna bring us the eyeballs too.
AMANDA: Hey, singing never sing in the woods, this is what I'm learning.
JULIA: Never sing your information. So he shouts the name Oni Roku three times, and the ogre burst into a bubble and disappears forever, letting the carpenter run free to return to his family.
AMANDA: Oh, no, what happened to Daddy Oni Roku?
JULIA: I don't know. And I hope nothing happened to those little baby Oni’s, they just wanted their stew.
AMANDA: Maybe they like learn to the trades and grew up to you know, create a sort of carpentry co-op, teaching their skills, you know, to the people.
JULIA: I love that for them. Amanda, that's great. That's my headcanon now, those Oni children are fine, they're thriving, and now everyone goes to them for their bridge-building needs.
AMANDA: Thanks.
JULIA: There are of course many other versions of the story, and if you have a favorite that you grew up with, I would love to hear about it, send it into us. I want to hear all about it. But there is one more thing that I want to talk about with the story of Rumpelstiltskin before we wrap up. And this is what the folklorists call The Rumpelstiltskin principle or the law of names. Which is basically shorthand for the value and power of using personal names and titles. And the idea in folklore that to give or to know the true name of a being gives you power over it. Now, this, as we already talked about, is a very popular trope in the fantasy genre, but also in a lot of religious and mythological backgrounds as well.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So for example, ISIS in Egyptian mythology is able to gain control over the sun god Raj and put her son Horus on the throne because she's able to like through an elaborate trick, trick Raj into revealing his true name to her.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Which I think is— is very cool. And of course, in the Odyssey, we see Odysseus give the name nobody to himself when he's captured by the cyclops Polyphemus. And he could have saved himself from the wrath of Poseidon if he didn't fall into his own hubris and reveal his true name to the defeated Cyclops.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: And there are just like there are so many creatures in folklore that can be defeated or conquered by calling out their —their true names, such as the Scandinavian Knicks. And my favorite example, Amanda, we'll talk about some of your favorites as well, I'm sure. But my favorite example in a fantasy novel is the like power of names in Ursula K. Le Guins Earth Sea novels, which basically like the knowledge of a true name of a thing confers power over it. And so no one ever tells anyone their true names. And if you learn the true name of like an animal or a rock or a plant, you gain magical control over it.
AMANDA: Totally. I think this is such an interesting principle and probably something we can do a full episode on, so—
JULIA: Probably.
AMANDA: —if anybody has scholars or books or examples of true names and folklore that they have come across and really love, I would actually really like it if you could send those to us. Tag us on social or send us an email at spirits podcast.com/contact, and we can put that together.
JULIA: So yeah, I would love to dig further into the true name trope. But I also really think that it's interesting how, in every case of every Rumpelstiltskin variant, there is something as simple as a name that can really mean the difference between life and death. And whether or not it's just like, ooh, you couldn't possibly know my name, so I'm going to trick you thing. Or if it is actual, like magical power that for example with the oni makes them disappear, is a really powerful and really interesting image. I do truly want to dig into more about why the magic of names is so important.
AMANDA: Amazing. So we will do that. Stay tuned, everybody. And in the meantime, if your mom is out doing the washing, telling wild lies about you and your abilities, remember—
JULIA: Or is just singing your social security number out loud to the birds, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: —Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!