Episode 333: Loki
/We couldn’t do It’s Norse, Of Course without talking about our favorite trickster, Loki. We chat about his origins, the shenanigans he gets himself into, and why everyone is mad at him basically all the time!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of sexual situations, misogyny, pregnancy, abduction, death, genitalia, crude humor, toxic masculinity, slavery, and violence.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and permanent guest Jasper Cartwright weekly as they recommend games, answer advice questions, and play whatever quizzes Eric comes up with. New episodes every Friday!
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Sponsors
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Transcript
JULIA: Hey conspirators, it's Julia and before we get started I want to tell you about a flash sale that is happening at our merch store. Since this is the Loki episode, we wanted to celebrate some trickstery trick or treats. And so if you go to spiritspodcast.com/merch right now, you can get 25% off all of our merch. That is 25% off all of our merch when you go to spiritspodcast.com/merch. This sale is not going to last very long so you can go and find a link in the description of this episode or again go to spiritspodcast.com/merch for 25% off all of our merch right now. And now let's get to the episode.
[Theme Song]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is episode 333, baby all about Loki. And Julia who could we have as a better installment of our It's Norse, Of Course series for such a asynchronous episode three threes in a row, it feels ambiguously gendered, it feels sexy. It feels mischievous, it must be Loki.
JULIA: It must be Loki obviously, of course. And Amanda I was going to ask you what you remember/ think about when you think of Loki, but I think you've touched on quite a few things. So we're—we're good there.
AMANDA: Yes, we covered Loki and our wonderful agenda fuck the gods' episode from early on in Spirits history and a real fan favorite episode, I must say. And we've touched on a number of stories, including the spidery horse having sex as a horse, and just Loki being you know, a trickster. And of course, there's Tom Hiddleston by icon performance in the movies. So again, I won't always talk about Marvel movies when we are covering It's Norse, Of Course, but this is one performance that for me, you know is really up there on my mood board of tricksters and messengers being the hottest figures in mythology you know? Tom Hiddleston's Loki is— is up there.
JULIA: And as it should be Amanda, obviously.
AMANDA: Thank you for your support.
JULIA: And you know, Loki is a character that we've talked about many times on the podcast, but we've never really gotten a chance to do like a real deep dive into him. He's always kind of like on the peripherals mentioned, but not focused on. So of course, I think now is the perfect time to do it as part of Its Norse, Of course, and as you've pointed out already Amanda, Loki is kind of the quintessential trickster god. And as we'll soon see as we dig further into this episode, Loki is often seen as the villain in a lot of Norse stories, but it's simultaneously often sometimes reluctantly welcomed by the Gods at the same time, and is considered by most to be part of the Aesir. So he is and isn't kind of in the inner circles of the gods, and at the same time kind of exists on this periphery. And this is really reflective of his role as the Trickster among the Norse where he is neither like good nor evil necessarily, but rather he's this kind of personification of disorder, which he brings into the stories he's featured at.
AMANDA: I am sure that if I looked up the words Loki and queering in JSTOR, a lot will come up Julia because I'm already hearing so many ways that Loki is queering or breaking, or challenging or expectations of what a god is, what good is, what evil is.
JULIA: Amanda, actually I do actually want to go to JSTOR and type in queer and Loki and see how many results we get, just very quickly.
AMANDA: You know it, baby. Alright, Julia, you'd be happy to know that the words queer and Loki do bring up 171 results on JSTOR.
JULIA: Correct.
AMANDA: Which is a Google 17 million, that's a lot for JSTOR.
JULIA: That is a decent chunk for JSTOR. Shout out to those historians who are saying Loki, queer? Yes.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: As I kind of mentioned he is there in Norse mythology to kind of challenge convention. He proves in the stories that good and evil are not as black and white as they're often portrayed. And in the Prose and Poetic Edda's, Loki is often shown as being like spiteful and tricky, and his stories often feature more malicious tricks than light-hearted ones. But there are moments of light-hearted as we'll talk about later on in the episode. But his motivation in many of these stories is basically just like it's two things you can always rely on Loki for, its self-preservation and shallow pleasure.
AMANDA: Incredible. And I am already brainstorming my moniker for Loki here.
JULIA: Good.
AMANDA: And I'm gonna save that for the end, Julia, because I have— I have a thesis here, I have an inkling of an idea and I'm going to see if that's the same by the end of the episode.
JULIA: Okay, good, good. Another key part of Loki and kind of his personification in the stories is he's always both irreverent to his fellow gods, and nihilistic, which I think is really interesting, given what we know about like the coming of Ragnarok and how the world will end and it's all like a cycle. So having a kind of nihilistic God who was like, I don't really care what happens, as opposed to someone like Odin, who is so stressed out about what is going to happen and wants to change it, is very, very interesting. In my opinion at least.
AMANDA: That is fascinating, and this is almost giving me like Tyrion Lannister vibes, where it's a character who is either like, you know, has given up on advancing or maybe their place is sort of secure enough. Or perhaps like the—the comic relief, or like the jester, you know, in a Shakespearean play, where it's like, yep, we're all gonna die one day, it's fine. You know, fuck drink, let's figure it out. Because it's not to say that nothing is worthwhile, but everything ends. And while that's not an attitude, I think is sustainable to bring into my daily life. It is something I find extremely compelling and interesting in media.
JULIA: Yeah. And I—I love that you brought up kind of the jester as a character, and specifically the Shakespearean jester, because that is an interesting aspect of Loki like we're talking about, you know, this kind of malicious tricks and his self-preservation and shallow pleasure. But there are times in these stories as we'll see where he is like, sometimes just being really playful, sometimes he's actually being helpful. He's a very complex character.
AMANDA: Hell yeah. I'm so excited to hear more stories about him.
JULIA: Yes, but before we get into those stories that feature Loki, let's get a little bit of background about him, his origins who he is. First things first, I know how much you love etymology Amanda.
AMANDA: You know it.
JULIA: So you would be happy to know that Loki most likely comes from the Old Norse word Logi, which means fire. And when you think about it, it's a really rather apt name much like fire Loki is somewhat unpredictable and can be destructive if you're not careful around it.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: I like that as a origin very much. It really does seem to fit him in my point of view of who Loki is.
AMANDA: Yeah when harnessed it can be a powerful tool on your side, but if you know at all outside of your control, you're like, oh shit, are we better off without this?
JULIA: Exactly. However, Amanda, there is also another school of thought that suggests that Loki's name comes from the early Germanic words for knot, loop or tangle which again is very on-brand for a trickster, right?
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: Because I mean like if you think about it, Loki schemes are often like webs that will ensnare the unaware before they even realize that they're entangled. Loki is also sometimes associated with spiders, which is kind of unsurprising for a trickster and for someone whose name might have come from not loop or tangle.
AMANDA: Yeah, I've been thinking about my other favorite trickster from our episode so far [8:04] and just that— that spider imagery, there really is nothing like the circling, the web the lying and wait to suit a trickster.
JULIA: Yeah, I ag—100% agree. I love the spider as a trickster. And while Loki unlike some of the other Norse gods has no official symbols, he is often shown or associated with knots and tangles, and also often snakes and wolves. And you might be wondering, Hey, why snakes and wolves? Well, let's talk about Loki's relationships.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Loki is the son of the giant Farbauti and the goddess Laufey. Now this relationship that sired Loki is super interesting because there was this idea in Norse mythology, that while the gods could take giants as wives, and that was fine, it was considered taboo for a goddess to take a giant as a husband. So right off the bat, Loki was considered kind of like an abnormality.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: Yes. And so just like from birth, the gods are already kind of against Loki because they're like, you came from a weird relationship, I don't know how we feel about you. It's kind of fucked up that Laufey decided to fuck this giant, and then you were born, super weird.
AMANDA: Yeah, and I think a commonality among lots of tricksters gestures and sort of nihilistic characters, Tyrion Lannister included is an element of being othered from birth and needing to kind of figure out how they can weave their way into positions of power that they are otherwise excluded from.
JULIA: Yes. However, while Loki is kind of othered from his birth, he is eventually reluctantly accepted as part of the Aesir. At some point, Loki and Odin even swapped blood and become Blood Brothers, with Odin promising that he would always share a drink with Loki which is a huge sign of respect and something that will be important later, I'll say it. So Loki would go on to marry Sigyn, who is the goddess of fidelity, which fun fact was named the goddess of fidelity by Odin because of how loyal she was to Loki.
AMANDA: Fascinating, not what I would have predicted.
JULIA: Yes. And we'll—we'll talk a little bit more about that fidelity, and her just like kind of self-sacrifice towards the end of this episode, but keep that in mind, fidelity.
AMANDA: Alright, I well.
JULIA: So the two of them Sigyn and Loki together had two sons that were named Narfi and Vali. And unfortunately for Narfi and Vali, they suffered the consequences of their father's malicious meddling. So when Loki caused Baldr's death as punishment, Vali was changed into a wolf that then tore apart his brother, and then Narfi entrails were used to bind Loki to a rock in a cave as punishment, where he is said to remain until Ragnarok. And again that is a story that we will touch on a little bit towards the end of This episode, but keep it in mind that bad things happened when Loki caused mischief.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Ironically, Vali is not the only one of Loki's children to be a wolf. Which is not something you often say even in mythology, but here we are. So Loki had this whole array of other children, many of them monstrous. So he fathered with a giant Angrboda, the giant Wolf Fenrir, who is said to eventually break free at Ragnarok and ultimately kill Odin.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: They also had a Jormungandr who is the world serpent, who is a sea serpent that in circles all of mid-guard and bites his own tail.
AMANDA: For me two of the more iconic kind of images and figures of Norse mythology, I didn't know they had Loki in common.
JULIA: Yeah, and they all—Daddy Loki fathered all of them.
AMANDA: I'm just imagining like the barbecue, you know, the birthday party, and you know, couple wolves, huge snake hanging.
JULIA: Just chilling like—
AMANDA: In the backyard.
JULIA: —what a great family reunion that is.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: And then the family reunion is unfortunately shadowed by the fact that their final child together is one that we've touched on briefly before, which is the goddess Hel, who presides over the underworld realm of the same name.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: While the poetic Edda refers to her as Loki's daughter, the Prose Edda says that she was appointed to her position by Odin, which doesn't necessarily mean that she's not Loki's daughter, it just kind of differs on how she gained her position of her kind of namesake rome here.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And of course, Amanda, as you've mentioned before, and I would be loath to forget there is Sleipnir, who we've talked about on the show before and was the eight-legged horse that Loki gave birth to while in the form of a mare.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: Can't do a Loki episode without mentioning, hey, remember that one time he was pregnant as a horse?
AMANDA: Listen, you can go back to the— to the archives and listen to our episode all about that.
JULIA: It's very, very good, I promise. Now that we've got a little taste of who Loki is, his place among the gods, his important relationships. Let's start digging into the stories that make Loki, Loki shall we?
AMANDA: Yes, please.
JULIA: So we'll start out with a story that is known as the kidnapping of Idun. So the story starts as many Loki stories start, which is him pissing off someone, but in this particular story, it is the giant Thiazi who is extremely pissed at him and threatens to kill Loki unless he brings him the goddess Idun, who is the goddess of spring and rejuvenation and married to the god Bragi who is the god of poetry.
AMANDA: Does it matter why he's pissed at Loki or just kind of general?
JULIA: It truly doesn't. Loki probably either insulted him or like pulled a prank and now Thiazi's mad at him. It truly doesn't matter what Loki did, It's just Loki is now in debt to This giant, right?
AMANDA: That's fair.
JULIA: So this giant is telling him I will kill you unless you kidnap this lady and bring me to her. And Loki who definitely does not want to die and is all about self-preservation, as I mentioned before, kidnaps Idun and brings her to Thiazi, but very quickly, the rest of the Norse gods realize what's happening and now they're the ones who are threatening Loki's life unless he manages to get her back.
AMANDA: Classic Loki between a rock and a hard place.
JULIA: Two rocks in this part, it's really—oh god just a nightmare for him.
AMANDA: Ow, ow that hurts. Stop it.
JULIA: Ow, oh, no. Oh, no, it's almost like I squished myself between these two rocks, and now I'm mad that I'm being squished.
AMANDA: Yep, that's right.
JULIA: So Loki agrees again, mostly because he doesn't want to die. And so he transforms into a falcon and scoops up Idun and tries to carry her back to Asgard in his talents. However, Thiazi who's like whole thing was like he was the master of the animals and could transform into any type of animal, also shifts into an eagle and pursues Loki and his would-be bride.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And Thiazi almost manages to catch up with Loki in this kind of desperate pursuit across the realms. But when Loki crosses into the fortress of the gods in Asgard, the rest of the Gods light a fire around the perimeter, which catches Thiazi and burns him to death, which lets Idun and Loki land safely. And this again is kind of like a classic tale of Loki helping to aid the gods, but only because he caused the problem in the first place.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: But this Amanda is not where this version of the story ends.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: After Thiazi died, his daughter Skadi, arrives in Asgard and demand satisfaction for the death of her father. Obviously, that's what you would do back then, that's the honorable thing to do. Hey, you killed my dad, make this right between us. So she makes a bunch of demands, but among her demands, was that the gods had to make her laugh, which is something that many tried to do, but only Loki was able to accomplish.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: Now Amanda, how do you think he managed to make Skadi laugh?
AMANDA: Um, I'm just gonna go ahead and say like, turning into some kind of animal and maybe tickling her.
JULIA: Okay, interesting. I like that. That's kind of fun. I feel like more story should be sorted out by tickling.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: That's just my personal opinion.
AMANDA: I don't know, I feel like in this situation, especially when somebody you know is going through grief, people may be a little bit afraid to, you know, to make a joke, to you know, kind of break that ice and I can see Loki as a person who lets them laugh and treats them normally in a way that others won't. I'm sure I'm totally off base, but that's my first idea.
JULIA: I mean, you're not totally off base, Amanda, not—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —completely.
AMANDA: That's a good start.
JULIA: So Loki manages to make this angry grieving goddess laugh by tying one end of a rope to the beard of a goat, and the other end to well, his balls.
AMANDA: Great. Good. Yes.
JULIA: And so as they basically pull away from each other, they're both like squawking and squealing and they're basically playing tug of war with Loki's balls, and this goat. And the result is basically the rope snaps or it becomes undone, Loki falls into Skadi's lap.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: And Skadi looking down at Loki and the spectacle that he's just put on, cannot help but laugh at the ridiculous situation. And Loki once again is able to save the day. But again, from a situation that he got himself into in the first place.
AMANDA: Yeah, that's a— that's pretty great, there was an animal involved. And you're right, I should have a— I should have thought of injuring himself as one of the elements of this.
JULIA: A classic slapstick moment there, yes.
AMANDA: Exactly right, yeah.
JULIA: Unlike last time, like, he didn't just save the day by doing some magic and being tricky and whatnot. He's able to save the day by just being like a silly little guy.
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly.
JULIA: Which is very fun for us in a modern setting, looking at the story and being like, oh, Loki, that's so funny. But admittedly, that is from a like ancient Norse perspective, not a victory that Norse culture would have seen as an honorable victory. It's really interesting where Loki can solve problems and solutions, but not in a way that would ever be considered in Norse culture as the honorable or even like masculine way of winning a battle.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —as we talked about, kind of in the gender fuck the gods' episode and whatnot, Loki is very much this character that has a lot of as the Norse would put it, like effeminate qualities. All these things that kind of define Loki as who he is, are very feminine things in Norse mythology, and it's why Loki kind of stands out and often plays the opposite or the counterpoint to a lot of the more quote-unquote “masculine gods” in Norse mythology. I think that's really cool and really interesting.
AMANDA: Me too.
JULIA: So we will take a look at a few more Loki stories and a few more tricks that he plays. But first Amanda, why don't we grab a refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia and welcome to the refill. Of course, we have to start our refill by welcoming our newest patrons Michael and Jessica, welcome, welcome, welcome. You join the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course our legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. If you'd like to join our Patreon and get cool rewards or get your name listed in every single gosh darn episode, you can go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast right now to sign up for as little as $4 a month and get cool exclusive content like bonus urban legends episodes, recipe cards for cocktails for every single episode and much, much, more. And as you might have heard at the beginning of the episode, we are having a flash merch sale right now in our merch store, it is 25% off all of our merch. Go to spiritspodcast.com/merch to check it out. We have some great items in there like our tarot decks, we have some great sweatshirts, I'm particularly fond of our moth man sweatshirt and so much more. Check it out, that is spirits podcast.com/merch for 25% off all items right now, go check it out. This is also the time where I like to give you a little recommendation of what I've been enjoying lately and I'm on a bit of a pirate kick right now, fans of Join the Party would know why. But I am really enjoying this book called The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty. It is so freakin good. I love the idea of this pirate who's coming out of retirement. 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JULIA: So Amanda for Loki's cocktail, there are a unsurprisingly large amount of Loki-inspired cocktails that you can find on the internet. But I actually found one that I really liked. It is inspired by one of my favorite cocktails, which is the Last Word, but it's given a slightly Norse twist to it.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: This cocktail uses Aqua vit, instead of gin. And then it's subs the Maraschino liqueur for honey liqueur, which is kind of a nod to Norse Mead, which is very important in Norse culture as we've talked about.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: And it kind of makes it a little bit of a sweeter, more robust Last Word, but I really do think it is a fitting cocktail for our little trickster Loki.
AMANDA: I like that.
JULIA: Serve it in little delicate coupe glass or something like that.
AMANDA: A little bit of bite, a little bit of sweetness, that sounds like a really good fit for Loki.
JULIA: Yeah, I know I—gosh. And then the—the herbal complexity of the Green Chartreuse is always a winner in my mind so and is green, and we—because of Marvel Cinematic Universe associate Loki with green, so there you go.
AMANDA: We sure do.
JULIA: With these in hand, let us get into another mischievous story of Loki. This one is known as Sif's hair.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now Amanda, do you remember Sif from the Marvel Cinematic Universe?
AMANDA: Oh yeah.
JULIA: She is the— the lady warrior that is part of Thor's squad, which we don't see a lot of her in later movies, but she's— she's pretty cool.
AMANDA: Yeah, no. Great hair, good outfits, a lot of mesh, I'm into that.
JULIA: In Norse mythology, Thor is married to the Goddess Sif, who was known throughout the realms for her beautiful blonde hair. So one night, Loki was bored, and that's never a good thing when Loki is bored, obviously. Never want a trickster to be bored because we never know what kind of mischief he's going to get up to.
AMANDA: Truly.
JULIA: So he's bored this one night, he decides to get up into some mischief and climbs into the room where Sif is sleeping. And while she sleeps, cuts off all of her beautiful hair.
AMANDA: Okay, really toddler vibes of where getting some destructive behavior because they're not stimulated enough during the day.
JULIA: Exactly. So this is just supposed to be like a prank, right? It's a very mean prank but in the grand scheme of Loki's tricks. It's—it's minor, right—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —you know.
AMANDA: Yeah, it grows back.
JULIA: Exactly. This is a particularly mean prank because in Norse culture at the time, like slaves, in particular, slave women would have their heads shorn.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So basically, he was—he was debasing Sif in that way, right?
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: So when Sif wakes up in the morning and finds herself bald, she is extremely humiliated as you would imagine. And so she goes to her husband, Thor, and Thor goes to investigate. Thor is not like a private eye or anything like that, but the problem is Loki did not cover his tracks very well in this scenario. So outside of Sif's window, Thor finds a shoe that he recognizes as Loki's and he seeks out the trickster god.
AMANDA: Okay, Julia, here's the question. How the fuck people keep losing their shoes in mythology? If my shoe gets a hole, rips my shoelace comes untied. My shoe gets a little bit wet, it ruins my fucking day. I am never not sure what's going on– on my tootsies. And I really wonder how you could possibly even—even like Cinderella, you're not off the hook here. How do you even when you're fleeing, lose a shoe? I turn back, I grab it, I put it on, I keep running.
JULIA: That's a great question. In this I imagine, and I don't know if they go into the specifics of this, but I imagine Sif is like in a tower, and then as Loki is climbing it, the shoe falls off and he's like, well, I'm in the middle of my tricks, I'll go back for it later, you know?
AMANDA: I mean, if it falls into the tower, you've already gotten in there, you can grab it again. Like even if you're trying to exit, right, it stays in the room, you go back and you get it.
JULIA: Right.
AMANDA: If it falls outside the tower, great, you're searching around in the bushes until you get your shoe back, come on people.
JULIA: That's— that's true.
AMANDA: I realized that pre-modern people walked around without shoes all the time, and this is me you know, having grown up with my feetsies never touching grass or sand, you know, unless I'm like at the beach. But good god, this is like the least relatable part of mythology for me.
JULIA: Maybe it's just like, because he's a god and has basically like Infinite Wealth and stuff, he's like, yeah, I'll just get another pair of shoes or I'll just magic another pair of shoes onto my feet or something like that.
AMANDA: I'm— like, who am I to question the gods, the co-hosts of this podcast, that's who I am.
JULIA: That is, that's true. So Thor goes to seek out Loki, when he finds him Thor grabs Loki by the neck ready to crush his throat because that's just how Thor rolls, but Loki is able to talk his way out of the situation as Loki usually rolls, you know?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So he tells Thor that the only way that Sif's hair will grow back is if Loki is released. And if Thor releases him, he would also give gifts to the gods as an apology.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Seems reasonable, he's like, this is a minor thing I can— I can make it right and we don't have to, like, you know, cause a big fuss or anything like that. I'll give you guys gifts, everyone will be happy.
AMANDA: Seems so reasonable that I'm sure something's going to go wrong.
JULIA: Oh, always baby. Oh wait, Thor, releases him, but he gives Loki only one day and night to fulfill the promises that he's made, right? So Loki, again out of self-preservation went to a group of dwarves that were known as the sons of Ivaldi, who were the most amazing craftsmen in all the realms. So he commissioned them to make new hair for Sif, literally out of gold. And as his gift to the gods, he has them build a magic ship that can fit all the Aesir as well as their weapons could attract the winds so that the sails were always full, and was easier to steer than the rest of the god's ships combined. And best of all, Amanda, the ship could be folded up on land to fit into a pouch and can be carried from place to place.
AMANDA: Incredibly useful, I want one.
JULIA: I want it so bad. I'm going to list out all these gifts Amanda, and then you tell me which one you want the best.
AMANDA: Oh great. Okay, okay,
JULIA: So the sons of Ivaldi also crafted a spear that never misses, which is called Gungnir, and the sons of Ivaldi, when they were finished crafting these gifts. Loki was, I would say less than willing to actually give them to the gods because they were just so fucking rad. You know, he's like, man, these are coolest shit gifts, these absolutely rock, but what if I could get more gifts?
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: So Loki went to another dwarf, not part of the sons of Ivaldi, whose name was Brock. And he made a bet with Brock that he and his brother Sindri could not make any objects that matched the wonders that the sons of Ivaldi had made. And he says, here's the thing, if you guys can't make as good as the sons of Ivaldi made, you'll just give me these items that you crafted for free. If you do manage to make something as good as or better than what the sons of Ivaldi made, you can take my head.
AMANDA: Why are we offering our head, Julia? Instead of saying if you— if you can, good on you.
JULIA: Well, I guess Loki was like, I can't pay for these things that I'm asking you to make for me. And the only thing that you'll probably find, you know, suitable now that I've insulted your honor by saying hey, you're not as good as these people is my head.
AMANDA: You know the other day we needed to get a like a dolly, and so we went next door to one of our neighbors here in the studio and they didn't have one and then Eric found some guy on the street that was like a moving truck who had a bunch of them. And he was like, hey, can I borrow one for like 15 minutes and the guy was like, I mean, they cost 60 bucks. Do you have collateral and he's like, I don't have any cash, but here's my ID. And I thought that was so brilliant, Because given the ID it's of no use to this man but it is of use to us. And so when we brought back the dolly, boom, there we go, get the ID back, give the dolly back, everybody's happy. I think the head here is collateral because it is of no use to these— to these craftsmen, but Loki sure does not want to lose it.
JULIA: Amanda 100% also the problem with giving someone your ID as collateral is that if you take it, they could just show up to your house because they have your address now.
AMANDA: Oh, that's true. Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. This is the equivalent of giving someone your ID, is they can just show up and take your head now.
AMANDA: You know, it happens.
JULIA: It happens. Amanda, Brock, and Sindri went to work. And the first thing they did was create Gullinbursti, which was a golden-bristled boar, who could race through air and water faster than a horse and also glowed in the dark.
AMANDA: Wow, that's a lot.
JULIA: The next was the ring Draupnir, which we've talked about in the Baldr episode, which every ninth night would drop eight more rings, so it just was a gold ring that would multiply every nine days.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: It's pretty great. And then during both of these forgings as Sindri and Brock are trying to make these items, there was a fly that kept landing on Brock and biting him while he meant the bellows, which for people who are not familiar with forging terminology, the bellows is basically the fan that keeps the fires hot while you're forging something.
AMANDA: Very helpful, forging corner.
JULIA: There you go, forging corner. Brock has to keep these bellows going in order to make sure that what they are crafting is perfect, but he's being bitten by this fly and it is driving him up the wall.
AMANDA: Sometimes Julia, folklore relatable. The shoe thing I can't get behind. The idea of a fucking fly that won't die and keeps biting me as I tried to do my work, incredibly relatable.
JULIA: Incredibly relatable. Since the dawn of time, we've been bitten by mosquitoes and flies and all kinds of things while we're just trying to get some work done.
AMANDA: Yeah, or some sleep, uh that's the worst.
JULIA: When they go to fire up the forge for their last creation, Brock finally gives in to the temptation and swats the fly, which kills it, but it lets the bellows die for a moment. And that moment is all that Loki needs to claim his victory, As that moment meant that the handle of their last creation, the hammer, Mjolnir was just a hair shorter than they intended it to be. So Loki claims his victory, takes the items of both the sons of Ivaldi and Brock and Sindir's creations, and he brings those gifts to the gods. He gives Odin the spear that never misses. He gives him the multiplying ring. Sif, he gives the wig made out of gold. He gives Frey the ship and the boar, and of course, we know that Mjolnir goes to Thor, right? Now Amanda which of those gifts do you want?
AMANDA: Julia, my head says ship, but my heart says glow-in-the-dark boar.
JULIA: That's where my head's at too. You know the ship is amazing, and the fact that I can just carry it and put it in the water wherever I want, and it basically sails itself, the best.
AMANDA: Incredible. But listen, Julia, how often am I near a body of water I want to sail on? You know, few times a year, a couple times a month if I try. How often do I want to [37:54]in the dark boar? Every day, every day.
JULIA: every day. I live closer to the water so I want to be on that water all the time. So I'll allow you to take the boar if I get the ship.
AMANDA: Oh, that's great, we can visit.
JULIA: Oh so cute. Amanda, the boar can race across air and water.
AMANDA: [38:08] Yeah.
JULIA: You could just meet me, we could go on little rides together, it's great.
AMANDA: It's perfect, I love it.
JULIA: After the gifts are given Brock and Sindri show up and they appeal to the gods they say hey, gods, you tell us these gifts must have been as good as what the sons of Ivaldi made right? And the gods look at their gifts and they're like yeah, these are pretty fucking tight gifts. we're gonna side with you guys. So Brock and Sindri are like well, the rest of the gods say hey, we did just as good a job, time to collect our prize Loki give us your head, right? However, Loki again, he's a trickster god, and he gets out of it by saying, ah, I said you could have my head, but not my neck. And since you can't get my head without my neck, you can't collect.
AMANDA: Ah, yep, nope, I guess it'll be— it will be very difficult and require a great deal of precision to get ahead without a neck. Oh, well.
JULIA: Sindri and Brock obviously, enraged by this technicality in which Loki has taken away their prize, right? And so, in response, they hold Loki down and they sew his lips together so he can't talk his way out of any more deals in the future.
AMANDA: Okay, that's great.
JULIA: They don't stay so shut for long, but—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: It's a very fitting ending to the story in my opinion, at least.
AMANDA: That's pretty great.
JULIA: Oh, gosh. and then of course Amanda it wouldn't be Norse mythology if we didn't get to tell a story of Loki via our poetry corner!
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: So this poetry corner is less of a poetry corner though and more of a rap battle.
AMANDA: Oh damn.
JULIA: This story is called the Lokkasena. It is from the Poetic Edda, and this is basically an insult battle that Loki engaged in and one against the rest of the Aesir.
AMANDA: Well, that's something I didn't see coming for this episode. Love it.
JULIA: I love it too. So Lokassana literally translates to Loki flighting, and a flighting is literally a verbal duel.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: One we need more flags in our life because that is one of the coolest things I've ever heard of.
AMANDA: I'll say.
JULIA: And two, of course, Loki is going to be good at this, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So this story actually takes place at a feast that is being thrown by the sea god Aegir. And many of the gods were invited to this feast and the servants of Aegir welcomed each of the guests with like high praises. It was kind of like, you know, when you watch I don't know, like a regency film or like something where they're announcing people as they enter and they're like, Lord so and so of bla bla bla. They're doing that but they're also like, really, like piling on praise to each of the gods that enters, right?
AMANDA: Sure, sure, sure.
JULIA: And Loki being Loki, becomes really jealous of just how much praise the others are receiving, right? And so he goes and he kills one of the servants in his jealousy.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: He's like, oh, if you're gonna compliment them and not me as much then you don't deserve to live. Just a classic— a classic Loki. This of course enrages the other gods and they drive him from the hall, as you would expect them to do, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, get the hell out here.
JULIA: So Loki eventually returns, He demands under the laws of hospitality, that he'd be given a seat, an ale, and he calls on Odin's promise that they should always share their drinks together, as we mentioned before, remember their blood brothers?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So Odin is like okay, make room for Loki at the table. The other gods reluctantly give him a seat, and then Loki raises a glass and drinks a toast to all of the gods, which specifically excludes the god Bragi, who had told him earlier that he was unwelcome in the hall before Odin intervened, and said no Loki deserves a spot, right? Loki is very much looking for a fight, Bragi tries to kind of defuse the situation and is like, I'll give you a horse and you know, like, here's some gifts, and Loki's like, no, no, no, you suck. And then everyone else tries to defuse the situation and every time someone tries to defuse the situation, Loki insults them. This is kind of how the verbal duel happens is someone steps up to say Loki relax, And he says you fucking suck and the next person stands up and he's like, you suck too. And so I have a section here where he talks to the Goddess Freya.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: And this was a translation from Richard North, so it goes, Freya said, you're crazy Loki to count up the ugly hateful things you did in all your forms. Frigg, I think knows all men's fates, though herself she may not say so. Loki said, you be quiet Freya, I know all about you. In your case, there's no want of disgrace of the gods and elves who are inside here. Each one has gone whoring where you are. So basically calling Freya loose. Freya said you have a lying tongue, which I think will sing no good for you either one day, gods and goddesses, they're angry with you downcast, you will go home. And Loki says you'll be quiet Freya, you're a foul, which and much mixed up with malice. Since the giggling powers surprised you with your brother and then Freya, you would have farted.
AMANDA: Damn Loki.
JULIA: So Loki just absolutely crushing everyone. And it goes back and forth until he like really goes after all of the gods, even to the point where he's sparring with Odin and their particular section has a lot of like vitriol, and like it gets intense and personal there.
AMANDA: Man Julia. Okay, so do you think that like the play within a play in Hamlet, there are some situations in you know, Old Norse country where people with legitimate beefs use the retelling of this Edda to kind of cathartically like, work out and maybe score some points in front of the other villagers.
JULIA: I absolutely fucking hope so. That's the coolest thing you've ever said.
AMANDA: If I could go back in history, and like without catching any diseases and understanding every language, watch things happen, this is perhaps one of them.
JULIA: I oftentimes think of is like, if I was a time traveler, I would simply kind of just like memorize a bunch of songs that I would want to originate later in the past. And then—
AMANDA: That's good.
JULIA: Create them and make sure that they become popular in the now.
AMANDA: That is incredibly timeline-breaking, and I love that for you.
JULIA: Thank you. Thank you. I do my best. So eventually, in the middle of this rap battle, Thor shows up. And when Loki starts to turn his insults on Thor, Thor has to warn him four times that if he continues Thor will knock his fucking head off. And finally, Loki is like okay for Thor, I will leave the hall because he's the only one whose threats I actually fear and then he just leaves.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Yeah, so Loki is not having a good time, and in a lot of tellings of Norse mythology, this is part of the reason why—and again, this is like different retellings, and people have different timelines for how the Norse stories of Norse mythology go. But in a lot of timelines, this is the instigating moment where Loki decides to kill, Baldr.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Like he's like, you've all insulted me so much, I'm gonna kill the best of you. Because clearly none of you are as good as me and even Baldr, the shining example, Baldr is not as good as me. I like that as kind of an instigating event for when Loki finally decides to turn on the gods.
AMANDA: Oh, totally.
JULIA: Speaking of which, the final story that we have to tell of Loki is the one that we've touched on briefly, but I wanted to expand on further. So this is what happens to Loki after the death of Baldr. Now, obviously, this is a big story in Norse mythology, we've touched on it in nearly every episode we've done of Its Norse, Of course. So after Baldur's death, Loki is caught by the rest of the gods. He is taken to a cave, and he is bound to three stone slabs with as we mentioned before, the entrails of his own son who was ripped apart by his other son who had been turned into a wolf.
AMANDA: That classic, that classic story.
JULIA: Classic, classic story of when your one son gets turned into a wolf and kills his brother. So the Goddess Skadi, who we talked about before, and who never really forgave Loki for killing her father, set a poisonous serpent above Loki's head so that the burning venom of the snake would drip down onto his face as punishment.
AMANDA: Oh, great. Yeah.
JULIA: There we know Loki is doomed to remain in his bonds until Ragnarok. And it is said that when Ragnarok arrives, Loki will be able to break free and will lead the denizens of the underworld into battle against the gods, right? But until then, Sigyn his wife, who we talked about, again, who is the goddess of fidelity, who is the goddess of fidelity, crouches between Loki and the serpent above his head, holding a basin in which each of the drops of poison drip down into.
AMANDA: Smart.
JULIA: This is the kind of self-sacrifice that she's made, where she's going to do this for the rest of her days until Ragnarok arrives, right?
AMANDA: Julia as you started talking, I thought good God, she put her own like face or mouth in between it? No, Amanda, I forgot about buckets, bucket that's a much smarter idea.
JULIA: I really appreciate that like one of the first inventions that mankind created was the bucket.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: Or just the bowl.
AMANDA: Got to take stuff from— from place to place.
JULIA: That make sense, we got to carry liquids. And sometimes liquids are hard to carry without a bucket.
AMANDA: My hands can only hold so much, Julia. Only so much and it's full [48:07], like maybe three quarters of a cup at most.
JULIA: Yeah, that's not enough for measurements. Of course, this is beautiful and self-sacrificing of Sygin. But every time that the basin is full, Sygin has to empty it. And as she does in that brief time, the poison does land on Loki's head.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And it sears him and causes him so much pain that he rides in this pain and agony. And while he does that he's pulling on his bonds.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And the Earth would rumble and shake with the force of his pain. And that is where earthquakes are said to come from.
AMANDA: Hey, that's good.
JULIA: That's not good.
AMANDA: That's very good. I was going to criticize her and suggest that she come up with I don't know, a pipe, a board, something that— that's the thing could just roll off, you know, into a gutter essentially. But you know what, I'll allow it because that was a very good, very good explanation of earthquakes.
JULIA: She really needs a pipe system. I like that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Maybe like—maybe the bowl that she's catching the poison in is a magical bowl, and therefore, like the pipe system, it would just burn through it?
AMANDA: Yes, that's definitely possible. Or, you know, she needs to hold it up, and if it were to, you know, it could probably wear through a hole. I would expect where the poison drips over time. So well— we'll assume there's a good reason for it.
JULIA: And plus, it's the symbolism of Sygin being the goddess of fidelity like she has to be there to help out, so I get it. Now, [49:31] of course, as we've already talked about. Loki is a pretty popular character in our modern pop culture. I think the most notable obviously is Tom Hiddleston's Loki portrayal in the MCU, which as we probably realize now takes quite a few liberties with the origins of Loki. In the MCU, he is the adopted son of Odin and brother to Thor, which is not the case in the actual Norse mythology. And he's more of like an antihero in later movies and in his own TV series. He does have his occasional moments of heroics after he tries to take over the world a couple of times, but yeah, that's just Loki stuff right?
AMANDA: It's fine.
JULIA: So he is also, of course, a featured character in Neil Gaiman's American Gods, which is a book that is near and dear to my heart personally.
AMANDA: Me too.
JULIA: And we have also talked about the God of War series a couple times in It's Norse, Of Course, and a spoiler for the game that came out in 2018, which I personally just finished playing, but if you don't want to be spoiled for the ending of that game, skip forward like 15 seconds. Okay, so in God of War at the end of the game, you discover that the main character Kratos's son Atreus, was supposed to be named Loki, and is this world's version of the trickster god who is kind of coming into his own powers and identity.
AMANDA: That's really fun. I love that.
JULIA: It's very cool, and it was a big reveal at the end, and I didn't spoil myself at all. So I was like, no way! My son, my son, it's him?
AMANDA: So good. Yeah.
JULIA: So Amanda, that is Loki. and as we've been doing in all of our It's Norse, of course, episodes, let me hear what epithet you've come up for our trickster god here.
AMANDA: So at the beginning of the episode, I thought Loki, the liminal might be a good choice because he really is at the border of lots of things and kind of messes with a lot of our identities and assumptions. But by the end of this episode, hearing a few more stories about him, I wonder what you think of Loki the laughing because one of the through lines that surprised me today was how much like humor and just relentlessness he brings to every situation. And you know he—he laughs at himself. He laughs at others and he probably leaves you laughing at the end of hearing one of his stories.
JULIA: I love that Amanda. I think that's very true because Loki is very much could be a laughing With you or laughing at you kind of character. And I think that is an excellent title for our little trickster god because sometimes he's just a little guy, just a funny little guy. And sometimes he is causing the world to end.
AMANDA: And I'm definitely picturing him you know, chained to that stone guts rotten all around him, you know wife dutifully caring for the poison dripping above him and just laughing at the absurdity of it all.
JULIA: Yeah. And with that image in mind listeners, the next time you decide to play a prank on your friends, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!