Episode 363: Ravens
/Once upon a midnight dreary, we recorded an episode about ravens! There’s so many stories featuring ravens from across the world, from the raven’s feast to creating the world and everything in between.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, war, heteronormativity, fire, defecation, decapitation, and animal death.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Fall of the House of Usher on Netflix!
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: https://multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And Amanda, if I was to say to you, "Once upon a midnight dreary—"
AMANDA: "While I pondered weaken weary over many quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore, while I nodded," Julia. "Nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping. As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. 'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, 'Tapping at my chamber door, only this and nothing more. Distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December.
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor. Eagerly I wished the morrow, for vainly I had sought to borrow from my books surcease of sorrow, sorrow for my lost Lenore. For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore, nameless here forevermore."
JULIA: Listeners, Amanda just did that off the dome, in case you didn't know that Amanda has that full poem memorized. But Amanda, what poem was that?
AMANDA: That's The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe, and the next stanza begins with perhaps my favorite line, "The silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple curtain filled me, thrilled me with fantastic terrors I had never felt before."
JULIA: God, Edgar Allan Poe. I don't know if anyone else watched The Fall of the House of Usher on Netflix this holiday— holiday season weekend. For me, Halloween is the holiday season—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —but I very much enjoyed it. And so I've had The Raven on my mind lately, Amanda. And I have been thinking about why these big, black birds are so influential or so, like, ingrained into humankind as a thing that we're like, "Look at that bird," right?
AMANDA: Yes. Julia, it's a great idea. And I must say, occasionally, when I hear a raven calling, or maybe a crow, like, I don't really know the bird calls that well. But when I hear them, I do think to myself, "Oh, my death is coming." That's what I think every time. I think, "Oh, oh, okay. This is the moment. Alright, I guess."
JULIA: And no one would blame you for that, Amanda, because like ravens as a bird are something that feature really heavily in lore, in literature, and have quite an importance in various cultures. And in some places, it is associated, as you just mentioned, with loss and death, which is something that we'll get to a little bit later. But it's also associated with intelligence, and prophecy, and seeing into the future. And because of its ties to death, they sometimes act as a connection or a messenger between the living and the dead. But, Amanda, why the raven, right?
AMANDA: I don't know. A bit spooky, but really smart.
JULIA: Well, we're gonna talk about why exactly that is in this episode. But first things first, Amanda, because you have brought it up and because I'm sure a lot of our listeners are also curious. Let's go over to my bird corner. It's a very cozy, little nest where I can tell you bird facts.
AMANDA: Caw!
JULIA: Caw! Amanda, while we're here, can I get you anything, some grubs, some hummingbird nectar, or anything like that?
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, just some unshelled peanuts would be great.
JULIA: Of course, it would be my pleasure.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: So, Amanda, there's a lot of black birds out there, and many people confuse ravens and crows as— as we've kind of discussed right now. But if you are a casual bird watcher like myself, and you see a big, black bird, you're probably wondering what the difference is and which bird that is, right?
AMANDA: I— I certainly am.
JULIA: Now, the common raven and the American crow share a lot of territory in North America. So admittedly, it can be very confusing, but ravens in general are much larger than crows.
AMANDA: Big bird.
JULIA: So a raven is about the same size as a red-tailed hawk.
AMANDA: Oh, that's also a big bird.
JULIA: But you would never guess— yeah, that's also a big bird. Not the biggest of the— the hawks or like predatory birds by far, but like their beefy boys.
AMANDA: Aren't ravens like puffier?
JULIA: Ah, yeah. I mean, like in general, they— they tend to be bulkier than a crow is. A crow is a little bit more like streamline and slick, I guess.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Another way if you're like seeing a big, black bird fly in the sky above you, the tail is often a giveaway. So a crow tail, all the feathers are the same length. And when it spreads its tail feathers out, they kind of look like a fan.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: But ravens have a longer middle feather, making their tail look more like wedge-shaped.
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: So that's how you would be able to, like, look into the sky and be like, "What's that bird? Oh, he's got a wedge. That's a raven."
AMANDA: Do they behave differently? Like, how different are they as species?
JULIA: So they are interestingly a little bit different. For example, ravens tend to travel in pairs, whereas crows tend to travel in larger groups.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So you're more likely to see just two ravens as opposed to crows, which tend to— if anyone knows groups of bird's names, they are a murderer. So they are very much like often a lot of them. And then finally, the other very recognizable difference is, as you just said, Amanda, their call, which crows have that very traditional, "Caw-caw!" Like we just— we're doing there. Whereas ravens, their call is more like a low croak like— [croaking]
AMANDA: Hmm. That makes sense in my brain because they're bigger, they should have a deeper voice. I don't know if that's really true, but it makes— it makes headcanon sense to me.
JULIA: Yes. So that— that is the bird corner. So Amanda, what is it about the raven that holds such an interest in humanity's mind? What do you think?
AMANDA: I think that because their eyes are also black, there is something about not being able to see the whites of their eyes, that makes them feel a little bit unknowable. Because they are black, there are, you know, associations with nighttime, perhaps with the Underworld. In my mind, maybe just the environment we live in, you know, I'll see them in like desolate landscapes. I see them physically a lot more often in the wintertime because there aren't leaves on the trees, right? You can see them as they're hanging. And I think that makes you think of like death or have negative consequences. And I think they travel solo. I don't see them— like I'll see them, obviously, in big flocks. You'll see them in pairs, but not often around other kinds of animals. And so something about them feels like unknowable, and standoffish, and solitary.
JULIA: Interesting, interesting. We'll— we'll talk a little bit about why in particular, the raven is kind of so influential in the mind of a lot of humanity, because like ravens exist in folklore across the world, partially because it is such like a wide-ranging bird. It's the most widely distributed of all corvids, which are like extremely smart birds to begin with. Like, they are capable of mimicking human speech. They're capable of problem-solving, et cetera, et cetera. But they are found all across the Northern Hemisphere. And ravens as a result are referenced in many cultures as these kinds of otherworldly or more than just animal figures, right? They are mentioned in Greece, in Europe, in Rome, in indigenous cultures of the Pacific Northwest, and beyond. So let's get into the details of how and where the raven is seen as this kind of more than otherworldly figure.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: So let's start with the Pacific Northwest, because I think that this is one of the most interesting examples of how important the raven can be to a culture. So there are several tribes along the Pacific Northwest coast that have stories of the raven as the creator of the world that we live in, including the Haida, the Inuit, the Tlingit as well as others. The Tlingit, in particular, have a story in which the raven manages to trick other animals, though, in some stories, it is greedy humans instead, into giving gifts to the world and humanity. So light, the stars, and the moon, and the sun, which actually allows the first day to occur.
AMANDA: That makes a lot of sense to come from a really clever bird.
JULIA: Exactly. They're so smart. And, like, it's really interesting, because the raven in a lot of these stories is a very benevolent figure, but it is also a little bit of a trickster. So you'll see why, as I tell you more stories from this area. But the Haida also credit the raven for creating the world, but specifically for helping humankind come together. So in this story, aboard raven found creatures that were trapped inside of a clam, and freed them by coaxing them out of the shell. Like, literally, like, bringing them out of their shell.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: So it turns out that the creatures that the raven found were actually the first men. As the raven started interacting with them and stuff like that, eventually, it grew kind of bored of them, and so it set out in search for their counterparts.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And the raven found female humans that were trapped inside of a mollusk and freed them as well and introduce them to the men. And that is why the raven, it is said, felt very responsible for the humans, especially the way that they paired off and is very protective of them, and became this kind of provider for humankind.
AMANDA: Tight as hell. I love that.
JULIA: Isn't that's so cute? I love that. I know it's a little, like, heteronormative for modern-day society, obviously like that. But like the fact that the raven is like, "I am responsible for all couples. I am the reason you guys—
AMANDA: The reason you guys got together. Yeah. And I also love our origin as coming from the— the briny depths of the mollusk and clam.
JULIA: Yes, there's actually quite a few stories that feature sort of life coming out of water. So there is another Haida story of a raven creating the world and how it changed from white to black, which is actually a very common theme in raven stories, actually.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: The idea that the raven started out as a creature that was white, and then through either curses, or actions, or what have you, becomes black.
AMANDA: I mean, we see that often in nature where, you know, animals are born with lighter pigment, including humans, that darkens over time. So I guess it makes sense to apply to a bird as well.
JULIA: So in the story, in the beginning, the Gray Eagle had been the guardian of the sun, the moon, the stars, freshwater, and fire, but he hated people, and so he kept them hidden. As such, humans kind of ended up living in a dark world and there was no fire for warmth or fresh water to drink. Now, Gray Eagle had a daughter who was very beautiful, and Raven fell in love with her. And so she thinking him beautiful with his Snow white feathers returned his affections. And one day invited Raven to her father's home. I love the romance between these two birds. I'm, like, of course—
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: —you guys would fall in love. He's so beautiful, look at him. So when he arrived, Raven saw the treasures of the sun, and the moon, and everything else hanging on the walls of Gray Eagle's home, and decided that he was going to steal them away to bring them to the world. So when no one was looking, he stole them all and flew out of the house through the chimney. So when he got into the air, he hung the sun in the sky, and now the world was bright, and he could see an island far out in the middle of the ocean. Next, he hung up the moon and the stars, which allowed him to keep flying across this large sea. And when he finally reached land, he dropped the fresh water that he had stolen, creating the streams and the lakes of the world. And he held on to the fire last so long that the smoke turned his white feathers black. And when it began to burn his beak, he dropped the fire, and it hit itself in the rocks of the land, which is why when you strike two rocks together, they create sparks.
AMANDA: Hmm. I love that. Yes.
JULIA: Isn't that amazing? And so the Raven brought these gifts to the world and was turned black in the process.
AMANDA: Right on. Listen, standing around the— the fire too long, gonna get that smoke residue.
JULIA: That's true. I still— I love the idea of like, "Oh, the fire hit itself within the rocks, and that's why, you know, when you bang two rocks together, you create sparks. And that's why like, fire doesn't have to always be out in nature available, but it is always hidden away." I love it. Human beings always impressed me.
AMANDA: So impressive. And I mean, it doesn't make any sense that that happens. Like every time I watch Survivor, I'm like, "You get what now from the flint? How does that work?"
JULIA: How does that work? No, you just— you— you get fire.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: There are many other excellent indigenous stories that feature the raven, but I want to make sure that we also have time to hit up some other parts of the world. But if you search for raven tales like on the internet and in various books and stuff like that, you can find some really great resources out there. Search for Raven Tales of the indigenous tribes of the Pacific Northwest.
AMANDA: Buy native, read native, baby.
JULIA: Hell yeah. So we'll move on to Greece next, though the raven doesn't play as important of a role here as it does in other places. Ravens were one of the animals that were actually associated with the god Apollo, which is like an interesting choice, because I wouldn't think Apollo if I was going to be like, "Amanda, guess which god is associated with ravens in Greek mythology?"
AMANDA: Yeah, no. Definitely not.
JULIA: Actually, this is another story where it is a raven that is white and is turned black in the process.
AMANDA: Really? I gotta say, Julia, I'm feeling like Hephaestus is maybe the god I would associate with ravens, maybe because of the forge and the smoke that's kind of in my mind now, but he also just feels like the kind of guy who get along with them.
JULIA: Yes, I agree. I agree. Even though he, like, lives in or around volcanoes, so maybe they're like— there's not a lot of a birds over there. The— the sky, it's all congested with the fumes and whatnot.
AMANDA: I thought they wouldn't mind. I thought they get along, but—
JULIA: I think they would get along, too. I think you're right. So in the story that features the raven, Apollo believed that his lover Cornice had been unfaithful to him while she was pregnant with Apollo's child. Suspicious of this infidelity, he sends a raven to spy on her, and he discovers that she is in fact having an affair with a mortal man. And when the raven reports back to Apollo, he is so angry that he scorches the raven with divine fire, which turns its feathers black.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: Hmm. So as such, the raven was associated with Apollo afterwards, and became a symbol of misfortune as it acted as the god's eyes in the mortal world.
AMANDA: Hmm. Right on.
JULIA: So when you would see a raven in ancient Greece, you'd be like, "Oh, no, Apollo's watching what I'm doing. I gotta go."
AMANDA: Better behave well, yeah.
JULIA: So perhaps more famously, ravens were obviously extremely important to the Germanic and Norse people as they were tied to Odin.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And we know this from our It's Norse, Of course series that Odin was often depicted as being flanked by his two ravens who are Huginn and Muninn, whose names meant thought and memory, and who also similarly served as his eyes and ears across the realms, but in particular Midgard. Amanda, I know that you have been watching a play-through by your husband of the God of War: Ragnarok game recently. How are you enjoying them?
AMANDA: Much. I enjoy it a lot. I look away when the animals die, and I'm highly enjoying, as Eric put it, Thor, barrel-shaped king—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And the indomitable Richard Schiff playing Odin, who is absolutely incredible. The game is so funny. I wasn't prepared for how funny it is.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: I just— I love this like, you know, misfit gang of the dad, the son, and then the— the disembodied head like adventuring their way around.
JULIA: I love that game so much. I have laughed out loud multiple times in playing that game. There's— the lines that just come out of nowhere and you're like, "Oh, that's very funny."
AMANDA: Exactly. And as Eric characterized it, like Richard Schiff is really playing Odin like a gangster. You know, like— like a mid-level gangster. Like, hey, wouldn't it be unfortunate if all these things that you didn't want to have happen happened? It's really good.
JULIA: That'd be bad, that'd be bad. I don't know how to describe it. Odin is very, like, sly in a way that is very disarming, but also very scary. And I think mid-level gangster really does define that very well.
AMANDA: It's really good.
JULIA: So besides Richard Schiff's performance as Odin, the Norse did associate ravens not only with Odin, but with war. In fact, the Old Norse name for the raven is often used as a root word for both battle and bloodshed.
AMANDA: No way.
JULIA: Isn't that really interesting?
AMANDA: Yeah. Poor little guys. It's not like they're bloodthirsty. They're just around.
JULIA: No, of course not. But that's— the thing is they are carrion birds, and we'll talk a little bit about that later. That's why they're tied so often to death and battle, and bloodshed and misfortune, is because a lot of their diet consists of already dead bodies. A battlefield is someplace that you'd find a lot of ravens.
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: Similarly, the Vikings believed that the raven could actually foretell whether a battle would be won or lost. So the Viking King Ragnar Lothbrok had a banner that was referred to as the hrafn or the raven banner, which he used as a tool for prophecy. So basically, how it worked is, if on the day of battle, the banner fluttered, Lothbrok believed that his side would take the battle, but if it hung lifeless and unmoving, the battle would go to the other side.
AMANDA: Interesting. I wonder what else sort of like placebo effect motivational tool that could have been if there's like a, you know, a page boy, like, crushed behind some barrels, like flapping a skin. Yeah.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. I— I really like, that was an idea be like, listen, if he couldn't make a breeze happen, then he might as well make it actually happen, you know?
AMANDA: Right? Like, I mean, I would go stronger into battle thinking I would win.
JULIA: Yeah, because the gods foretold it.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: And, you know, as a representation of Odin, who is very much associated with prophecy and knowing what the future holds, of course, the raven is going to also be able to tell you that.
AMANDA: Absolutely. Also, now, I want just a raven-shaped banner. That sounds great.
JULIA: That does sound pretty cool. I'm not gonna lie. Alright. So we'll talk more about other supernatural ravens. But first, how about we wet our beaks and grab a quick refill?
AMANDA: Hey, let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, it's Julia, and welcome to the mid-roll. I want to start, of course, by thanking our patrons this week, you are the lifeblood of this podcast. We could not do it without you. And we are so glad that you are part of our community. And our community is made up of amazing people like our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And of course, our supporting producer-level patrons as well, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. And you too can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast and signing up today at, hey, any tier, but maybe you would like the ad-free episodes tier. Or if you sign up at our lowest tier, you get amazing recipe cards every episode, as well as bonus urban legends episodes and so much more. Check out our tiers by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast today and signing up. I would like to recommend to you this week, something that kind of inspired this episode of this podcast and something that I really enjoyed during spooky season. And now, that the SAG strikes are over, I can talk to you about it. And that is Fall of The House of Usher, which I really, really enjoyed. I'm a big fan of Mike Flanagan's work. I love a dramatic monologue in a spooky setting with a lot of different characters dealing with death. And this one really did it for me, especially the, like, Edgar Allan Poe angle. It was really nice to see all the little Easter eggs, and the details, and the adaptation, I really, really enjoyed it. So if you're looking for something spooky post-October, check that out. I also think that you would really like Join the Party. Join the Party is an actual play podcast with tangible world, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators who make each other laugh each and every week. DM Eric and players, Amanda, Brandon, and Julia, that's Amanda and me. Hey, welcome everyone to the table from longtime tabletop RPG players to people who have never touched a role-playing game before. You can hop into our current campaign right now, which is a pirate story set in the world of plant and bug people, which I'm really enjoying. We're starting to really hit our groove and the plot is thick, and I think you would really enjoy it. Or you can marathon some of our completed seasons like our Monster of the Week game that was set in a weird summer camp. Campaign Two for a modern superhero game, and Campaign One for a sort of a classic high fantasy. And once a month, we released the Afterparty, where we answer your questions about the show and how we make the podcast. So what are you waiting for? 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[theme]
JULIA: Alright, Amanda, we are back, and the cocktail that I'm bringing to the table today is inspired by the plumage of the raven, which yes, is— is black, but when it catches the right light, it's almost like purplish, right?
AMANDA: It is like purple and blue, like an oil slick, but a bird and not oil.
JULIA: Exactly. So for this, I have used blackberries and pomegranate juice to get the color like just right. And then to brighten up the flavor, you use a handful of mint leaves and, of course, some white rum, which is kind of how we talked about before, the raven transforming from white to black.
AMANDA: Incredible. I love it. It's delicious. And pomegranate makes it such a nice fall and winter drink.
JULIA: Oh, my gosh, yes. I just bought pomegranates at the store too, because now it's pomegranate season.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: They're like two for five and stuff like that and I'm like, "Yes, thank you."
AMANDA: That's true. I love it.
JULIA: Alright. Now, Amanda, I have a little quick— quick game. We're— we're going back to the— the bird corner, back into the nest, if you don't mind. It is just a quick game of true or false. And I'm going to tell you either facts or falsities about ravens and you gotta tell me—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: are they true or false?
AMANDA: Alright, I'll try.
JULIA: Now I kind of gave this one away earlier, Amanda, true or false, ravens can imitate human speech.
AMANDA: That one is true.
JULIA: Inc— that is correct. It is true.
AMANDA: They go, "Hello, Julia."
JULIA: Terrifying. I love it. I want them to do that. True or false, ravens are well known for playing.
AMANDA: Ravens definitely play, yes. Corvids play.
JULIA: Yes, yes, they do. Ravens are incredibly well-known for being playful. They enjoy playing puzzle games and stuff like that. And they even play games like hide and seek with each other.
AMANDA: So cute.
JULIA: Isn't that amazing, I love that so much. Alright, Amanda. True or false, ravens can use hand gestures, quote-unquote, "hand gestures."
AMANDA: Huh. I assume with, like, the foot or the wing, maybe the head. I mean, these—these— these— these fucks are really smart, so I'm gonna say yes.
JULIA: That is 100% true, Amanda.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: So basically, when I talk about hand gestures, it's basically I'm talking about very sophisticated non-vocal signals to each other. So they are able to communicate where they point their beaks to indicate an object to another bird, just like we would use our fingers to, like, point at things. And they also can hold up an object to get another bird's attention, which is like, "Hey, come here. Look— look, I'm waving basically at you."
AMANDA: "Look at this." Incredible.
JULIA: And— and this is actually the first time researchers have observed naturally occurring gestures in any other animal besides primates.
AMANDA: Really? I guess— I guess I take it so for granted that, you know, a dog would nudge something that it wants, but that's not a gesture. That's like— you know, trying to manipulate an object. Fascinating.
JULIA: Isn't that interesting? Alright. Another true or false statement, Adolescent ravens like to form, quote-unquote, "gangs."
AMANDA: Oh, interesting. Ravens— okay, so they pair up, eventually.
JULIA: They do mate for life as well.
AMANDA: Yeah. This one, I'm gonna say false, because I— I know that adolescent males especially are, like, turned out of the tribe, or the group, or the flock pretty often as, you know, challenging the dominance of, like, the dominant male. So let's, just for variety, say false.
JULIA: Amanda, it's a 100% true.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So ravens, as I said, they mate for life, they become these pairs that live in fixed territories. But when young ravens reach adolescence, they actually leave the nest and join gangs with other ravens around their age. And these, like, flocks of young birds live and eat together until they mate and pair off. And it's actually really interesting because scientists have kind of figured out that, like, quote-unquote, "teenage ravens, these adolescent ravens" experienced the same level of, like, stress that human teenagers do during this period of their time.
AMANDA: It's very stressful. What if—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: What if Matilda over there made a gesture at some other bird and not me? I'd be very sad.
JULIA: Exact— do you want to know how they calculate this?
AMANDA: How?
JULIA: So scientists will examine like raven droppings, so like their— their poop.
AMANDA: Oh, stress poops.
JULIA: The stress hormones in a teenage raven is higher than the droppings in a mated adult.
AMANDA: Oh, that makes sense.
JULIA: Isn't that kind of, like, sweet but also sad?
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly.
JULIA: It's amazing. Alright. And then finally, our last true or false statement, ravens hold grudges.
AMANDA: Okay. It's gotta be true. I mean, at this point, it's gotta be a list of good facts about ravens.
JULIA: It is a list of good facts about ravens—
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: —a 100%, Amanda. Yeah. So, basically, ravens are capable of, like, identifying people that have done them wrong or other ravens that have done them wrong. They actually have a wildly impressive memory and are able to both recognize faces and also remember like, 'This person treated me poorly or well."
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: They're up there with chimpanzees and dolphins. Like, they are incredibly intelligent birds.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: Now, that I've shared some fun facts about ravens with you, Amanda, let's talk about the ravens of the British Isles.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: Now, the British Isles feature several myths or stories with ravens. The Welsh, for example, associate ravens not only with battles and death, but bravery on the battlefield.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: One of the most famous medieval Welsh poems, Y Gododdin refers to the battlefield as quote, "The ravens' feast," which I think is—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —unbelievably cool. And, of course, makes sense because as we mentioned before, ravens are carrion birds, meaning, that their diet is made up of, for the most part, the flesh of dead animals, in this case, humans. So there's actually—there's a great part of the poem, which refers to a warrior who is very skilled in battle, saying— and I'm not going to obviously read this in Welsh, but here we go. "He fed black ravens on the rampart of a fortress," meaning that he killed enough men that the ravens were able to feast their—
AMANDA: Absolutely metal as hell. I love that.
JULIA: Extremely metal, we'd love to see it. I love poetry that is also about, like, battles and stuff like that, as we've talked about on the show. And—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —just really seems like, mwa, chef's kiss, beautiful.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: Now, I'm also sure that our British listeners would be disappointed if I didn't mention the Tower of London in association with ravens. Now, Amanda, have you visited the Tower of London?
AMANDA: I have.
JULIA: What did you think of the big birds?
AMANDA: They had a lot of jewels that belonged to other countries in Asia and Africa.
JULIA: Correct.
AMANDA: But it was surprisingly small and pretty spooky. It's also kind of in the middle of stuff now. Like London as a city has— has grown, so I was surprised that it wasn't like, removed, you know, in some, like, desperate corner, but it's now mostly a museum.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Fun fact, somebody who was on, I think, the Circle was like part of a lineage of guards at the Tower of London. They have, like, their own little guard core, some of whom lived there, and his dad lived in the Tower of London and this guy was like training to be a guard in the Tower of London, too. He was a catfish. She wasn't good at it. He was pretty unremarkable, but it was a cool, little human interest segment.
JULIA: It's a cool job. I give them that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Did you see the birds while you were there?
AMANDA: I saw lots of birds, but I— I know— in my mind, I think because of the Circle that there are specifically ravens associated with the Tower of London. And I don't think I knew it at the time, so I didn't know to look out for it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Well, Amanda, not only are they associated with the Tower of London, it is said that England will fall if the ravens of the Tower of London are ever removed.
AMANDA: Oh!
JULIA: And as such, there have always been, supposedly, at least six ravens at the tower at all times.
AMANDA: I mean, it just seems like a place birds would hang, no?
JULIA: Yeah. So, actually, it's interesting, they were donated.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Yes, I'll get to it in a second.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: So in regards to this, like, prophecy that, like, England will fall, there was actually one instance in which Charles II ordered their removal, but then retracted that order after being told the legend, that like England will fall if the Tower of London doesn't have ravens.
AMANDA: That's really interesting.
JULIA: Yeah. And it's— it wasn't even that— he was like necessarily superstitious. It was just that this was following the English Civil War, and he was like, "I'm not taking any chances." So part of the reason that ravens were donated to the tower in the first place, depending on the legend or the source that you're looking at, might have been by the Earls of Dunraven due to the bird's association with the Celtic god, Bran.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now, in Gaelic, the word Bran itself means raven, and Bran The Blessed is a god that was associated with ravens featured in several areas of the British Isles, including Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall.
AMANDA: I see you, George R.R. Martin.
JULIA: Do you know how my mind was absolutely, not blown, but like extremely disappointed in George R.R. Martin when I found that out? I'm like, "Bran just means raven, you fucking—"
AMANDA: Yeah, it's a real moon-y, moon situation.
JULIA: Very moon-y, moon, you're right. It's very wolfy-wolf. It's fine.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So Bran The Blessed most famous claim to fame, behind his association with Ravens was that he actually ordered his own head to be cut off. And afterwards, the head was said to be able to speak words of prophecy, which is once again tying ravens in with the ability to see into the future, which I think is really cool. It's really nice to see these kinds of recurring things in various mythologies, in particular, going back to both the Celtic and to the Old Norse.
AMANDA: That's amazing.
JULIA: So outside of Bran's association with ravens, the Goddess Morrigan, who we've talked about on the show before, is also associated with ravens, in her role as the goddess of death or victory in battle. So she, as we talked about in her episode, appears on the battlefield in the form of a raven inciting warriors to battle, encouraging warriors into brave acts, and instilling fear in the hearts of her enemies, which girl, same.
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly. Like, if I saw vultures circling overhead, I'd be like, "Uh-oh. I'm gonna be their dinner soon if this doesn't kind of change." And I completely understand that, you know, really primal fear.
JULIA: Yes. And, you know, ravens in a very similar fashion, they're waiting for the ravens' feast to begin.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So not only is that terrifying, Amanda, but Morrigan's most striking image is when a man might see her before a battle, washing the blood-stained clothes of a soldier in a river. And then the soldier then recognizes that the clothes are his own, which foretells that he is fated to die in the upcoming battle.
AMANDA: What? Julia, the clothes were his clothes all along!
JULIA: The clothes were his clothes all along.
AMANDA: One of the many reasons I love urban legends. We've been doing this shit forever.
JULIA: We have. We truly have. It's so good, though. It's still— it still hits us in the feels every single time, you know?
AMANDA: Oh, so good.
JULIA: So there are some stories of large, black birds in eastern Asia as a whole, though they tend to translate to crow rather than raven. But I also feel like I would be kind of remiss for at least not mentioning them here.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: In Hinduism, for example, the god Shani, who is the god of justice and karma, among other things, is depicted as riding a giant raven or crow as his mount, which I think is—
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: —very cute. I love that.
AMANDA: That sounds very fun.
JULIA: It does. On the other hand, though, associating one ravens with or crows with that god who has extreme importance, also associated with the crow either riding one as well, or any horseless chariot with a crow emblazoned on the side is the Goddess Dhumavati, who is associated with unattractiveness and inauspicious things.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: Could go either way. A fine representation, maybe focusing on the duality of the bird as a carrion bird—
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: —but also as something that might be a good luck charm.
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: In China, as well as some of the surrounding areas, a three-legged crow is said to live in the sun, and also is used as kind of to represent the sun in certain iconography.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So this is known as the Sun Crow or the Golden Crow, and the story goes that there were once 10 Sun Crows that had settled on 10 separate suns, and had perched all on a red mulberry tree. The mulberry tree is also a very common object and symbol in Chinese mythology and Chinese culture in general, as a sort of like magical tree or one that's associated with the supernatural. Kind of like the— you— or the oak is in a lot of European culture.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: Each day, one of the crows would travel around the world on a carriage, which is why the sun moves across the sky. And when it returned, another would take its place. However, the crows like to feast on the grasses of immortality that grew on the Earth. And one day—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —all 10 of them came to feast on the grass at the same time, which caused the world to start to burn.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: There was this archer, Hou Yi, who saved the Earth by shooting down all but one, which is why there is now only one sun.
AMANDA: You got to coordinate when you and your nine brothers and sisters all burned with the fire of the sun.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: You can't all go at the same time. You're going to overwhelm them.
JULIA: Exactly. You might remember that story from our episode on Chunga, but this is like not a variation, but you know, separate from the moon goddess herself. Now, somewhat similarly in Japan, there is a mythical crow god that is called Yatagarasu, also associated with the sun and is also shown as being three-legged. This is one of those things where there was a lot of cultural exchange between China and Japan, and so—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —it makes sense to see these similar patterns and similar figures. So he occasionally acts as a messenger for the other gods. And his appearance is said to be an omen that suggests the will of heaven or some others sort of divine intervention, guiding mankind to a more divine path.
AMANDA: Okay. I love this. I love this for the ravens. It's not like, "Caw-caw. I'm gonna eat the dead soldiers." It's like, "No, no, follow me to glory."
JULIA: Exactly. And actually, his three legs, in Japanese culture at least, are said to represent heaven, earth/nature, and mankind, with the implication being that all three of those come from the same divine sun.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, as you can see, from the various traditions and raven representations from across the world, the raven does hold an important part in the human consciousness. Its role often as a messenger seems to derive from its status of being associated with death, as corvids often are. Found near death and battlefields, because of their carrion-feeding nature. They are this sort of like mediator between life and death. And in many of the traditions that we discussed, they are shown to guide mankind towards the right path, or in some instances, guide them to what happens after death, you know, leading souls to their rightful resting place. As such, they are complicated figures. They are both representative of things that humanity is afraid of, but also represent knowledge, and wisdom, and prophecy as well as the protection that comes with that. So it's honestly not very surprising that in the more modern usage as a symbol, the raven has been used in many coats of arms, as the official bird for various cities across the world, including Baltimore. Shout-out to Baltimore.
AMANDA: Best football team mascot.
JULIA: Best football team mascot. And of course, it is unsurprisingly used in fiction, often to the effect of foreboding or horror elements, such as Edgar Allan Poe, as we started us off with. As well as series like Game of Thrones, which we raged about a little bit, and Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds. So next time, you see a raven and think about all of your ancestors who lived before you and said to themselves, "Hey, that bird, there's something special about that bird."
AMANDA: Remember, "The Raven never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting on the pallid bust Pallas perched above my chamber door. And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming. And the lamplight o'er him streaming throws a shadow on the floor. And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor shall be lifted nevermore." Stay creepy.
JULIA: Stay cool.
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