Episode 170: Purim (with Eliana Morris)
/Just in time for Purim we’re joined by Eliana Morris, who gives us a primer on the holiday’s story, feminist themes, and celebratory traditions. Also featuring a lot of Disney references, some of the best Purim spiels we’ve ever heard, and more than a few mentions of The Bachelor.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about inequality in relationships, misogyny, virginity as a construct, execution/hanging, anti-Semitism, religous persecution, mentions of abuse, attempted sexual assault, and mention of mass shooting.
Guest
Eliana Morris recommends you check out your local Jewish Federation! Find the one closest to you at jewishfederations.org She also recommends the books, Jewish Literacy, The Diary of a Young Girl, Rashi’s Daughters, Hey Alma, Sacred Treasure—The Cairo Genizah, and Stolen Words.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Too Much: How Victorian Constraints Still Bind Women Today by Rachel Vorona Cote. Buy a copy and see our new lists of previous recommendations, guest books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books!
- Live Shows: We’re coming to Boston in May and Potterless is visiting New Orleans in April! Get tickets now at multitude.productions/live
- Multitude: Join the MultiCrew at multicrew.club, and check out Next Stop in your podcast player or nextstopshow.com!
Sponsors
- Skillshare is an online learning community where you can learn—and teach—just about anything. Visit skillshare.com/spirits2 to get two months of Skillshare Premium for free! This week Julia recommends “Art Abroad: How to Create a Travel Sketchbook” by Christine Nishiyama.
- ThirdLove is on a mission to find a perfect bra for everyone. Get 15% off your first order at thirdlove.com/spirits.
- Motherland premieres March 18, 2020 on Freeform.
Find Us Online
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Transcript
Amanda:
Welcome to Spirits Podcast. A boozy diamond to mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia:
And I'm Julia.
Amanda:
And this is episode 170, Purim with Eliana Morris. This is a highly requested topic and we are so excited to have Eliana on to talk about her experiences with Purim, the incredible mythology behind it, and all the ways that folks celebrate right now.
Julia:
Yeah, and it's just in time for Purim as well.
Amanda:
So stoked. Seriously, I learn so much. I'm never going to look at hamentaschen again the same way. It's great.
Julia:
And you know who else is just in time Amanda?
Amanda:
Is it our newest patrons? Clara, Desiree, Synan, Alexandra, and Landon? Who join the ranks of our distinguished supporting producer level patrons, Phillip, Megan, Deborah, Molly, Skyla, Samantha, Sammy, Neil, Jessica, and Phil [Fresh 00:00:45]?
Julia:
Yes, it is. As well as our legend level patrons: Lacey, Britney, Josie, Kylie, Morgan, Kylo the Husky, Beam me up Scotty, Audra, Chris, Mark, Mr. Folk, Sarah, and Jack Murray. They get all of the holiday themed pastries that they want in life.
Amanda:
Amazing. And Julia, what would you pair with some great pastries in the story of Purim?
Julia:
Eliana suggested red wine and who are we to say no to that. We think you should go to your local wine store. Check it out, make friends with the owners, get good recommendations from them. That's what we did. Our red wine from this episode was recommended to us by our friends at Dandelion here in Greenpoint. And they sent us home with a bottle of Primativo from Valentina Passalacqua in Italy.
Amanda:
Amazing. I also really like to read books while drinking red wine sometimes in the bath sometimes not. So this week I am recommending as my book for everybody, Too Much, How Victorian Constraints Still Bind Women Today by Rachel Verona Cote.
Julia:
Yeah, and if you want to purchase that book as well as many of the other books that we have mentioned as recommendations on this show, you can go to SpiritsPodcast.com/books and you can find a way of purchasing those books and also donating money to indie book stores.
Amanda:
Yeah, it doesn't cost you any more than it normally would. But this website bookshop.org divides profits in a co-op model among indie bookstores, so we are stoked to support it.
Julia:
And what else is going on in the world, a multitude right now, Amanda?
Amanda:
Well, we have just yesterday dropped the first episode of Join the Party season two with Julia and myself. Along with Eric Silver and Brandon [Grugel 00:02:17]. We are beyond excited to bring you this modern day campaign. So we're starting off with four episodes about how we designed our world and our campaign. So really interesting behind the scenes stuff for any story teller, much less DMs and Dungeons and Dragons players.
Amanda:
We also have a bunch of live shows coming up. Potterless is performing with Harry Potter and the Sacred Text in April in New Orleans, and then we are coming live to a museum, dream goals in Boston in May.
Julia:
So you can find more about all of those shows and all the things that we're doing at multitude.productions.
Amanda:
Absolutely. But listen guys, this episode is incredible. So we are not going to keep you any longer. Thank you again to Eliana for joining us, and now enjoy. Spirits Podcast episode 170, Purim.
Amanda:
We are so excited to welcome Eliana Morris to the show. A conspirator who was like, "Hey, you need to know about Esther, about Purim, and how we celebrate it and why we celebrate it, and why it's amazing."
Julia:
And also, Feminism!
Amanda:
Yeah, so good. And I want to learn all about it. Welcome, Eliana.
Eliana:
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Julia:
It is our pleasure. Would you like to just kind of start with giving us the background of your experience with Purim? Maybe the first time you remember celebrating it? Or the first time you heard the story?
Eliana:
Yeah, so I grew up Jewish, and my family has ... my family and I connect on Judaism. So there's a video from my very first Purim. I was almost a year old because my birthday's in April. And my mom had dressed me up as a little hippie. And I'm just crawling around my grandmother's kitchen, playing with the camera, because I was a very distracted child. So that's now my first memory of Purim. I think my really first memory of Purim is I used to have this Queen Esther costume. It was a mauve velvet dress. And my younger sister had one. So we would dress up as Queen Esther together for the Purim celebration at temple.
Eliana:
And you start going to Hebrew school and Sunday school in kindergarten. Especially in those younger years, you mostly learn about the holidays and the traditions. Because to build a foundation for more intricate Jewish learning later on in life, and we would use to have rebuses telling us the story of Purim. A rebus is where there's words, but then there's a word that can have a picture that corresponds to it, there's a picture. So like if you say the word, "I" there's a picture of an eye.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm.
Julia:
Oh nice.
Amanda:
That makes sense. A little glossary.
Eliana:
Yeah, a little glossary. It's a way to read when you're young and still have pictures. Shout out to Gaston. I grew up celebrating Purim. I grew up celebrating all of these major holidays and learning about them, and studying them and encouraging people in my life to celebrate and study them as well.
Julia:
Fantastic.
Amanda:
And I'm so ready to hear why this holiday in particular is one that you love talking about and celebrating. So do I want to start with the story of Purim and then we can get into how it's celebrated and why it's important to you?
Eliana:
Yeah, let's do that. So this story takes place in Persia, which is now known as Iran. And the capital of the Kingdom of Persia was called Shushan S-H-U-S-H-A-N. It's a really hard word to say. Shushan. And the king of Persia was named Ahasuerus. His queen was named Vashti. And they had a seven day feast for everybody in the kingdom at his palace. And so seven days of drinking, eating, general debauchery. There was one for the men overseen by Ahasuerus and one for the women overseen by Queen Vashti. Which sounds amazing. You know, seven days with the girls drinking.
Julia:
Love it. I'm always a fan of extended periods of time with the ladies just eating and getting drunk and having fun.
Amanda:
You have to be really strategic about your drinking on something like that. You've got to make sure you stick to a theme. You transition on certain points. You hydrate one to one. You've really got to approach it with the seriousness it deserves.
Eliana:
You need methodology.
Julia:
Yeah. This is why you have the mom friend invited to the party because they will make sure that everyone drinks their water, makes sure that they have food in their stomach before you start another round, that sort of thing.
Amanda:
Huge.
Eliana:
Yeah it's great.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm. It's huge.
Eliana:
It's great. We have these two separate parties. On the seventh day of the feast, Ahasuerus was very drunk. He had been drinking for seven straight days, it's a lot. He was like, "You know what I'm going to do. I'm going to show off my wife."
Amanda:
Uh-oh.
Julia:
Okay. Cute.
Eliana:
Yeah, I mean, very good idea in theory. He sends for Vashti to come and show herself off, wearing only her crown.
Julia:
Okay.
Amanda:
Okay.
Eliana:
Nothing else.
Julia:
Listen, if you and your husband have that kind of relationship, there is nothing wrong with that. If you want to ...
Amanda:
And your guests consent to it and you're just ready to be like, "Hey, we are married and in love and we're both so hot." Like, okay.
Eliana:
Look at how hot we are. But she was not feeling it. And she refused. And that made Ahasuerus very angry.
Amanda:
Less okay.
Eliana:
Less okay, exactly. So he turns to the other men in the room, especially the noble men like the princes and said, "What should we do." And I'm going to quote from the Book of Esther here. They said, "Vashti hath not done wrong to the king only, but also to all the princes, and to all the people that are in all of the provinces of the king Ahasuerus."
Amanda:
Okay.
Eliana:
So not only did she insult you, she insulted everybody in the kingdom.
Amanda:
I think that's a little strong of a conclusion there, but all right.
Eliana:
It's very zero to a hundred.
Julia:
I thought it was like, she's insulted me by not letting me see her naked form, which okay bud. But the whole kingdom?
Eliana:
Yeah, well I mean a big thread throughout the story is men taking things way out of proportion.
Amanda:
As it always is.
Eliana:
So they were afraid that the news of what Vashti had done, or hadn't done would spread throughout the kingdom and other women would start, "acting out." That they would start-
Amanda:
Okay, bud.
Eliana:
Not being naked for their husband's friends.
Julia:
Why don't we just let women do what they want and not be like, "Oh, well, you must be naked because you are my wife?" That seems silly.
Eliana:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Like extremely basic bodily autonomy.
Eliana:
Yeah.
Julia:
That's all we're asking for.
Eliana:
Let's warn that. Ahasuerus pulled a Henry VIII and divorced Vashti.
Julia:
Now did have to invent divorce.
Eliana:
No, that was already a thing in his world. He didn't have to invent divorce and reinvent the wheel.
Amanda:
How fortunate for him.
Eliana:
Yes, listen to Six the musical, it's everything.
Amanda:
Please tell us what Six is.
Julia:
What is that?
Eliana:
Six is a pop musical about Henry VIII's wives. Six wives. They each have a chance to tell their story and not include his ... and take back the narrative.
Amanda:
Oh my god.
Julia:
Okay, I am downloading on Spotify.
Amanda:
It opens very shortly on Broadway, Julia.
Julia:
Amanda, get us tickets.
Amanda:
Julia, I, excuse me please.
Julia:
Get us tickets! You have that in!
Amanda:
I will.
Julia:
I love a fourth wall breaking.
Eliana:
Yeah, it's everything. They have microphones. Each queen has a pop diva that she resembles.
Amanda:
Oh my.
Eliana:
So Catherine of Aragon is Beyonce.
Amanda:
Of course she is. What else would she be.
Eliana:
Anne Boleyn is like Avril Lavigne.
Julia:
Okay. Yeah. That feels right.
Amanda:
I think there are some very specific queer archetypes for whom this musical is everything.
Eliana:
Yes. Yes. And the whole fandom has erupted over this show and it's amazing. It started out in London as a final project for two history students.
Julia:
What?
Amanda:
Yes! Thank you!
Eliana:
And it opened on the West End. It was in Chicago for a while at the Shakespeare Theater. Because if you're going to have a musical about an old English person, you're going to have it at the Shakespeare theater.
Julia:
Obviously.
Amanda:
Of course, why not.
Eliana:
They're about to a musical of Emma, and I'm so excited. Yeah, I'll tell you how that was.
Julia:
Oh, please.
Eliana:
It's coming to Broadway with the cast that I saw in Chicago. One of which, her sister is Jesse Mueller from Waitress, and Beautiful.
Amanda:
I love Jesse Mueller.
Eliana:
They got their start in what my opinion is the best regional theater in Chicago. I grew up seeing these women in shows.
Amanda:
That's incredible. Oh my gosh, total side bar here, but I am going to see Six right the heck tomorrow.
Julia:
Heck yeah.
Eliana:
It's amazing. And you know, I studied Tudor history in college, and I love musicals. So it was written for me basically.
Amanda:
I love when things just fill that exact niche of your interest.
Eliana:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
It's just like oh yes, for me.
Eliana:
And the thing that you didn't know you needed until you had.
Julia:
It's like wow, I'm so glad one person was like, "I'm going to make this specifically for me." Me. A real person.
Eliana:
It's perfect.
Amanda:
Incredible.
Eliana:
So anyway, Ahasuerus decided to be Henry VIII and divorced his wife for not being naked in front of his friends. And made a decree.
Amanda:
Sigh.
Eliana:
Yeah. I'm reading again from Esther. "And when the king's decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, for it is great. All the wives shall give to their husband's honor both great and small, that every man should bear rule in his own house."
Amanda:
Okay, bud.
Eliana:
Starting off, we are not huge fans of Ahasuerus.
Julia:
No, he's not really doing it for me right now.
Eliana:
He's just thinking with not his brain.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm.
Eliana:
And could potentially be tearing up his kingdom because his wife didn't get naked. So again ...
Amanda:
It seems a little out of proportion if you ask me.
Eliana:
Mm-hmm. So again, Henry VIII. Now he needed a new queen. Sends out a decree, for all the young virgins in the land, because she obviously has to be a young virgin.
Amanda:
Yes obviously.
Julia:
Do we have like a registry, how does this work?
Eliana:
Yeah, I have no idea.
Amanda:
Unfortunately they might have. Yeah.
Julia:
That is a great question, how are they deciding which virgins get to go to the palace.
Eliana:
I think it's like a Cinderella thing where all of the eligible maidens must attend.
Amanda:
Of course.
Julia:
Got it.
Eliana:
So every young virgin was sent. And he was going to choose whoever he liked best. Like in Emperor's New Groove. How Cuzco at the beginning sets up all of these women. He goes, "No, no, no, no." That's what Ahasuerus was going to do.
Julia:
Yep. Love it.
Eliana:
I remember seeing that movie for the first time, I'm like, "Oh, it's like Purim." So that's where I am. In Shushan, which was the capital, there lived a man named Mordecai. Now at this time, the temple had been destroyed in Jerusalem, and so Jews had kind of dispersed all over the world. It's called the diaspora. So Mordecai was living in Shushan, and he was raising his niece, Esther. And Esther was one of the women that was sent to the palace. And for a year, she lived there being ritually purified, like taking herb and oil baths. And she was a part of his harem. Which, harem.
Julia:
This honestly, I mean it sounds like when on the bachelor, the ladies get a spa day without the bachelor. The just get to enjoy themselves and not worry about this man's opinion. That's kind of what it feels like. But then he comes in and he picks one later, so ...
Amanda:
Yeah, there's just undertone of getting ready for male consumption that is, you know, a little bit problematic.
Julia:
A little bit.
Eliana:
And there are articles out there, and I can send you a link comparing this part of the Purim story to the bachelor.
Julia:
Oh hell yeah. Good, I'm glad I'm on the money here.
Eliana:
I will send some links. So she's there for a year. And it says that "She obtained grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins, so that he set the royal crown upon her head and made her queen instead of Vashti." So she becomes the queen.
Julia:
Okay, all right, well good on you Esther. It's better than nothing.
Eliana:
Yeah, and her uncle Mordecai sits outside the gate and is security. Now at this point, they don't say that they're Jewish. Specifically, Mordecai is counseling Esther and telling her not to say that they're Jewish, because kind of like now, saying you're Jewish and being outwardly Jewish can be like having a target on your back.
Amanda:
I get it.
Eliana:
Which is a whole other scary thing. So she doesn't tell her husband that she's Jewish. Now as part of the security team, for lack of a better term, Mordecai learns of a plot to kill the king. That these two guys want to kill the king, and he puts an end to it. And they are hanged.
Amanda:
Oh damn.
Eliana:
This incident is written in the book of Chronicles. The book that says everything that happens around the court. That's a thing that happens. Remember that for later.
Julia:
This is a plot point that will be important later.
Eliana:
Yeah, I feel like the narrator on Jane the Virgin when I say that.
Julia:
Or like a tell tale game where it's like, "Oh, Mordecai will remember this."
Amanda:
I also feel like I know so many peoples' uncles named Mordecai and it's very exciting to me to have this amalgamation of several uncles that I know in my brain as you're telling this story.
Eliana:
That's wonderful. I love that. Now at this point, Ahasuerus appoints a man named Haman as his viceroy. And when you think of Haman, I want you to have Jafar in your mind. Because he's an evil assistant to the king.
Julia:
I feel like no-
Amanda:
I'm loving these analogs.
Julia:
I feel like no story that featured a viceroy, the viceroy has ever been good. If someone says viceroy, I'm immediately like, "Oh, power hungry bad guy, excellent. Yes, I know what we're talking about."
Eliana:
With the beard.
Amanda:
I guess because all of the good ones don't need to insert themselves into the historical narrative-
Julia:
That's fair.
Amanda:
So the ones that we hear about are the ones who are like, "No, but me. I'm the real king."
Julia:
All right, that's fair.
Eliana:
And growing up, I always equated Jafar and Haman in my head. Because I grew up in the early 2000's and so by that time, we had Aladdin on disc. Not on disc, on VHS. Jafar was Haman, Haman was Jafar.
Julia:
Of course.
Eliana:
When I kind of picture the character Haman in my mind, I just think of Jafar.
Amanda:
That's wonderful.
Eliana:
Yeah. So Haman had a healthy ego, a very healthy ego. And as a man high in the king's esteem, people would bow to him, like they bow to the king. Now in the Torah, the ten commandments, there's the commandment saying you shall not bow to any other god but me. So Mordecai wouldn't bow to this man.
Amanda:
I mean, good.
Eliana:
Yeah, he was following his religion, doing his thing. Not bowing to an asshole. And this made Haman very angry. It's not really clear how, at least I couldn't find anything in my research, but Haman figures out that Mordecai is Jewish.
Amanda:
Oh no.
Eliana:
At this time, the relationship between Mordecai and Esther wasn't clear. Like people didn't know that they were related. So one man doesn't bow to me. He's Jewish. I'm going to destroy all the Jews. That was his thought process. It was very reasonable right?
Amanda:
I mean, it's not, but it's also-
Julia:
Unsurprising.
Amanda:
Tragically so predicable. Yeah.
Julia:
Yeah.
Eliana:
Especially if you look at the way antisemitism is acted out upon today, it's very similar. So Haman goes to Ahasuerus and says, "These Jews, they have a lot of money, they're getting really powerful. We should get rid of them. And you can get their money."
Amanda:
I mean, literally a thing that is being perpetuated today.
Eliana:
Yes. And that's a whole thing about how the only jobs we were allowed to have was banking, money lending jobs. And so that's why those stereotypes exist. But that's a whole other rabbit hole.
Amanda:
But one that people should go down, educate yourself on these stereotypes. Because it's like, if you're offended by the ideas that goblins in Harry Potter are antisemitic, then you've got a lot of reading to do, my bud.
Julia:
Yep.
Eliana:
Like I said, it wasn't known right at this point that Esther and Mordecai were related. Haman started telling Ahasuerus that the Jews should be killed and to take the spoil of them for prey. Which basically means, kill the men, also kill the women, but have fun with the women first. Not great.
Amanda:
Oh no.
Julia:
Stop doing that.
Eliana:
So we didn't love Ahasuerus in the beginning, but now Haman is just so much worse. He's antisemitic, egotistical, misogynist, just terrible.
Julia:
We have a misogynist, and just all around terrible dude.
Amanda:
Yeah, okay so you're offended that somebody is A, following his religion, that sucks. And B, that he won't bow to you before God? I'm sorry, you're not the king. You're the king's right hand man. And you aren't God. That shouldn't be offensive to anybody that you would choose to save or to venerate your God only in a particular way.
Eliana:
It's very toxic, I'm perfect, everyone else should love me situation. That again, we see-
Amanda:
Masculinity is so fragile.
Eliana:
Yeah, fragile masculinity, and especially finding a scapegoat for that fragile masculinity.
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And often that is the closest Jewish person.
Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah, it's so much fun. Yeah. Mordecai heard about this and publicly went into mourning for all the Jews that had already been slaughtered. So he didn't eat, he tore his clothes, which is the traditional way to be in mourning. You tear your clothes, you wear sackcloth. And Esther finds out what's going on. She finds out what her husband has decreed and she finds out what her uncle is doing. And Mordecai says, "Hey, you can intercede. You can do something about it." But she knows that anyone who approaches the king without his invitation gets dead. He was a very volatile, temperamental person. Ahasuerus.
Julia:
Hey, monarchy, bad.
Eliana:
Hey, monarchy, chill.
Amanda:
They know that first hand.
Eliana:
You've got to imagine, she's so terrified right now because she's married to the person that's killing her people, and she knows that if she tries to intercede, she'll probably be killed.
Amanda:
I genuinely can't. That's ... oh god.
Eliana:
Or at best, exiled like Vashti was.
Amanda:
Yeah, and there's no way that he'll ... Best case scenario, maybe he'll be mad at her for keeping a secret, but there's no way that he could appreciate exactly how dangerous it would be for her to be up front about that.
Eliana:
Right. Because he doesn't look through the lens ... because his lens is all about privilege.
Amanda:
Right. Yeah. And like the persecutor.
Eliana:
Exactly. Exactly. So Mordecai gets mad with his niece, because he's like, you know what, he says, "If you will remain silent at this time, salvation will come to the Jews in some other way. God will intervene, but you and your legacy will be erased forever. Who knows if this is the reason why all this happened and why you're here in this position right now."
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
So he basically says-
Amanda:
Yes, uncle, thank you.
Eliana:
You have a pedestal, I understand that it's scary, but use it.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
It's terrifying, it's awful, but use the power that you have to make a difference.
Julia:
Yeah, and I think there's something to be said about people in positions of power being able to speak out for people who have none.
Amanda:
Yeah, and like she is part of a persecuted minority, and she is also in grave personal danger and again, that's not something I think that you can appreciate unless you're approaching the story from her point of view. But it's also like to Mordecai's point. The people who are remembered are the ones that stand up. Your personal safety is one thing, but it maybe isn't the ultimate thing. If you have ideals that are higher that that, whether that's defending your people or doing something with your life that advances a cause that you are willing to make real sacrifices for.
Eliana:
Yeah, it reminds me of the saying, "Well behaved women rarely make history."
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
So she went back to her chambers and she realized that she was really the only person that could do something about this now. So she spent three days preparing. And when I say preparing, I mean, praying, fasting, just getting herself ready. Fasting is a big thing in Judaism. We don't do it as much anymore, but it's a way that we show penance to God saying, "I did wrong, I didn't do the right thing, so I'm depriving myself of food. To show you how bad I feel."
Julia:
Dang girl.
Eliana:
After three days of fasting and praying, she puts on all of her royal apparel, gets super pretty, and goes to the throne room, and shows strength in her vulnerability. She purposefully I think feminizes herself up to get the best reaction out of her husband. So she knows what she needs to do to get it done.
Julia:
She also knows his weaknesses, which is feminism.
Eliana:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Fuck. That is so smart. This is a general level of think. Like a general in an army. This level of planning.
Eliana:
Yeah, she is so smart. So she goes to the throne room and Ahasuerus sees his queen who he hasn't seen in a few days, looking beautiful, in all of her queenly glory and says, "What is it? Whatever you want I'll give it to you, even if it's half the kingdom."
Julia:
There you go! Fucking look at that Esther, look at that planning! Got it done! Yes!
Eliana:
Yes. And I've got to believe that if this situation wasn't so dire, she would have been like, "Hey, can I have a few things. Can I?" I don't know. I would be like, "Hey, can I get like 80 more books." Because I love-
Julia:
Here's my list of demands.
Eliana:
Yeah, exactly.
Julia:
It includes books and also letting my people not be killed. That'd be cool right.
Amanda:
Yeah, and like my uncle needs a house and you need to decree forever that Jews are sacred and safe, and yeah.
Eliana:
Yeah. Sounds great. So she says, all I want is to throw a banquet in honor of Haman.
Julia:
All right. All right.
Amanda:
Okay. Okay.
Julia:
That's an interesting choice.
Amanda:
Must be a plan here.
Julia:
There's got to be a plan.
Eliana:
And you've got to think, she hates this man. She hates this man. And so for her to say, "I want to celebrate him." Because she knows she needs to get him in a vulnerable position, is so brave.
Amanda:
Oh. Yeah, it is.
Eliana:
I mean, think about it in the terms of someone who has to be in the same room as their harasser, abuser.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
It's terrible.
Amanda:
Yeah. Even saying those words, even the idea that this person would be worthy of veneration is ... that's fucking retraumatizing you, you know?
Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah. So Esther is, using her femininity to her advantage, getting over her fears, or at least tamping them down to do the things that she needs to do. At the feast, she invites them to another feast the next day because you can't just have one feast.
Amanda:
Sure, no. That's not how feasts work.
Eliana:
No. You can't just have one. Now everybody who worked at the palace is at this feast. So Mordecai was also there. And again, Mordecai didn't bow to Haman. And again, Haman takes this small perceived slight way out of proportion and builds a gallows to hang Mordecai on the next day.
Julia:
Haman just chill for like two seconds, bro. Seriously.
Eliana:
He needs to calm down.
Julia:
Yeah.
Eliana:
So that night, Ahasuerus can't sleep. He has insomnia, whatever. And so he gets one of his clerks to read the daily records to him. The chronicles to him, just to help him fall asleep to the monotony.
Amanda:
Sure. Wait, wait, wait, so he's having someone read him the daily palace logs because he can't sleep? That is incredibly relatable. This is like having Scooter from Sleep With Me just come to my house and tell me stories so that I can fall asleep. Because I'm so rich and so powerful. The BBC world service has a global weather report podcast and that's what I listen to when I can't fall asleep. Extremely good, bud.
Eliana:
In listening to these daily records, he hears about how Mordecai saved his life.
Amanda:
Oh finally!
Julia:
Oh! He didn't know before.
Amanda:
Yeah!
Eliana:
Because he hadn't known about it before. So the next day, he goes up to Haman and he says, "Haman, what should I do to a man that I want to honor? If you were me, how would you celebrate a man that you want to honor?" And Haman, with his healthy ego thinks that the king is talking about him.
Amanda:
Oh god. I love it. Haman.
Eliana:
So he says, "Oh, well, you should give him lots of money and throw him a parade."
Julia:
Haman is just the subject of that song, "You're so Vain." It's just that, huh.
Eliana:
Or Taylor Swift, "You Need to Calm Down."
Julia:
There we go.
Amanda:
Very good.
Eliana:
Yeah. So he's like, obviously lots of money and a parade. So that's what the king does for Mordecai. And this makes Haman very angry. He's like, "You're honoring him? But I'm right here!"
Amanda:
This is such a specific and delicious punishment for Haman specifically. And he deserves every moment of it.
Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah. It's very unctuous.
Amanda:
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Amanda:
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Julia:
Yep, that's Skillshare.com/spiritstwo for two months of premium subscription for free.
Amanda:
Thanks Skillshare.
Julia:
Amanda, we were traveling recently and I was worried about the amount of space that I had in my bag. You know, you're always a little worried. Like, "Am I going to overpack for this trip, am I going to underpack for this trip?" It's never a good thing. Right?
Amanda:
I have to include 35 Spirits t-shirts in my suitcase, how am I going to do that, and also bring six days worth of clothes.
Julia:
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Amanda:
That would be pretty tight, and I would care a lot more about my taxes going to fund the army.
Julia:
Well, in Motherland, Fort Salem, that's exactly the way it is. In a witch army, the women are the ones with the power. And Motherland, Fort Salem is a new original TV series from Freeform, who are the creators of Claws and the executive producers of Succession. Over 300 years ago, witches made a deal to end their persecution in exchange for their freedom, they would become the country's front line of defense. Motherland, Fort Salem takes place in modern day America and it follows three new cadets as they turn their immense power into weapons. From basic training, to learning how to bring the full fury and destruction of an actual tornado against the enemy. And there is one hell of an enemy. A chilling terrorist group known as the Spree have begun to tear the country and the world apart. So these young women are our only hope. They were born witches. They will be made warriors. So this is Motherland, Fort Salem. It premiers Wednesday, March 18th on Freeform.
Amanda:
That's Wednesday March 18th to watch Motherland, Fort Salem on Freeform. And now, let's get back to the show.
Eliana:
So later that night, it's time for the second banquet. And at this banquet, Esther finally reveals that she's Jewish, and that her uncle is Jewish, and that Haman-
Amanda:
Oh shit!
Eliana:
Is planning to exterminate her people.
Amanda:
I hope it was a big dramatic speech.
Eliana:
And that the people that Haman is planning to exterminate is her.
Amanda:
This is the single most dangerous and ballsy for lack of a better word choice that I have ever heard.
Eliana:
Yeah, it's very much like, "Oh, you're going to let him kill these people. Well, guess what. Then you'll have to kill me too."
Amanda:
I mean, again, unfortunately like then and in many circumstances now, exposing yourself as being Jewish, that's not just saying a thing about you. That is opening yourself up for serious harm. And I so appreciate the bravery of this act and the reason that it's remembered and celebrated.
Eliana:
Yeah. And so for the first time in this whole story, Ahasuerus does something smart. Realizes that he's getting really angry and takes himself out of the room.
Amanda:
Wow!
Julia:
Oh! What!
Amanda:
Having some poise!
Julia:
Really?
Eliana:
Yeah, it's very, "Oh, okay. You're doing that now." So he takes himself out of the room. He takes a walk, cools himself down.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm. Damn. Okay.
Eliana:
And then he comes back and he sees Haman trying to force himself on Esther.
Julia:
Well what the fuck Haman? What the actual fuck?
Amanda:
Fucking predictable.
Julia:
Leaves the room for five minutes.
Eliana:
In case we needed to hate him more.
Julia:
Yeah. No.
Amanda:
Yeah, let's review. This man is a virulent misogynist, he is extremely antisemitic and not just that, he is trying to mobilize resources against the Jews. He is incredibly egotistical, and he starts actual extinction of a people over someone not bowing to him.
Julia:
And then assaults a woman. That's cool too I guess. Like Jesus.
Amanda:
Yeah, great.
Eliana:
And then in my notes, I have in all caps, "Bye Haman, you're being hanged on the gallows you built for Mordecai."
Amanda:
Oh yes!
Julia:
Hoisted by his own petard.
Amanda:
Yes! Finally!
Eliana:
Yes, it's sweet justice. All the people that were working with Haman, all of the enemies are killed. There are no spoils. So do you remember how Haman was like, "Oh, we should take our spoils, we should take their stuff, we should rape their women?" That isn't turned over onto them.
Julia:
Good.
Amanda:
Wow.
Eliana:
We're showing the upper hand, we're showing restraint. And at the end, Mordecai takes Haman's place. He's now the second man in the kingdom and he institutes the holiday of Purim, saying we should celebrate this time that we were able to overcome this antisemitism.
Julia:
Heck yeah.
Amanda:
Wow.
Eliana:
So that's the story of Purim.
Amanda:
Oh my god.
Eliana:
It's amazing.
Amanda:
It is. This is such a metal holiday.
Eliana:
It is. But like all Jewish holidays, we celebrate it with general tomfoolery, we celebrate with costumes, and fun snacks, and giving back to the community, and also lots of wine.
Amanda:
Our kind of holiday.
Eliana:
It's said that you should drink so much wine that you can't recognize the difference between Haman and Mordecai.
Amanda:
Oh my god.
Eliana:
Which I love. Which I love. So like I said, we give back to the community. That's called Mishloach Manot. You fill baskets with non perishable foods, usually they're Kosher, just the case. But a lot of things that you don't realize are Kosher are actually Kosher, it's easier than you think. You read the Megillah, which is a beautifully, almost like an illuminated scroll. You know what illuminated manuscripts are?
Julia:
Right.
Amanda:
Right, it's like gilded and pretty?
Eliana:
It's kind of like that. You pull out the story, and you read it like that. There's a special chanting that goes along with that specific story. And you have groggers, which are noisemakers, and every time the word Haman is said during the telling of the story of Purim, you have to make noise and say boo, which is very cathartic. I remember last year after Pittsburgh happens, outwardly saying boo to antisemitism was very helpful to me.
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
And you dress up in costumes. Now some parents will dress their kids up as Esther or as Ahasuerus or as Mordecai. And then you have the Darth Vaders and the princesses and the Harry Potters and the pirates and whatever.
Amanda:
Sure, sure.
Eliana:
Like I said, my first Purim, I was dressed up as a hippie.
Amanda:
Extremely sweet.
Eliana:
I was adorable.
Julia:
Oh, no doubt.
Eliana:
And there's usually like a little Purim, a little costume parade that the kids will go up and show their costumes, and mom and grandma will take pictures. And we usually do a Purim spiel, which is a little Purim play usually based off of a popular movie or musical at the time.
Julia:
This is a like a themed higata but like better.
Eliana:
A themed higata on steroids.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
Because it's like an actually show. There are rehearsals, there is singing. About 10 years ago, 15 years ago at this point, my synagogue did a Grease Purim spiel and my dad played Haman.
Julia:
Oh my god.
Eliana:
He was wearing a leather jacket, and he kind of looked like Kenickie, but if Kenickie was bald and short.
Amanda:
Sure. I love leaning so hard into modern contexts for the celebration of this holiday.
Eliana:
Yeah. Then a few years later, it was a Lion King Purim spiel. I played Nala/Esther.
Julia:
I love that.
Eliana:
I literally was wearing a lion costume and had face paint on.
Amanda:
So good.
Eliana:
Which was uncomfortable, but great.
Julia:
For the art, though. For the art.
Eliana:
Yeah, do it for the art. So lately there's been a lot of The Greatest Showman Purim spiels, Hamilton Purim spiels, Frozen, that kind of thing.
Amanda:
I see now, both the serious coming out and closeting, and all those reasons that a lot of my queer Jewish friends refer to Purim as the queerest Jewish holiday. But also the parades and the showmanship, strike me as extremely good and queer.
Eliana:
Yeah, it's fantastic and it teaches children, especially like young preschool aged children the story of Purim in a way that they can relate to.
Amanda:
That's true. There's a lot of serious stuff in the real history and context of the holiday.
Eliana:
You know you're introduced from such a young age, and as you grow up, you learn more about why Vashti was sent away and one of the reasons why Haman was actually killed. A lot of Jewish holiday stories, you start out with the bare basics, and as you grow older, and as you mature, and especially after your bar or bat mitzvah, you learn more of the PG-13, R rated stuff about these stories.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
At the beginning, it's just, "Haman was bad. He wanted to kill the Jews. Esther was brave. Mordecai was brave. Let's sing the Circle of Life." You know what I mean?
Amanda:
Yeah, yeah.
Eliana:
So there's the Purim spiel. There's a snack. It's called hamentaschen. They're little triangle shaped cookies because Haman wore a triangle hat.
Amanda:
Oh!
Julia:
I love those.
Eliana:
And in the center there's usually like poppy seeds or jam, or chocolate, and they're delicious. We always have to have a snack with our holidays.
Julia:
I love a good holiday snack.
Eliana:
Yeah. And we have some pretty good holiday snacks.
Amanda:
Yeah, that is true.
Eliana:
Like latkes? Come on.
Amanda:
So good. This year, Eric Silver of all of the other Jewish episodes on Spirits, and I used my grandma's Kitchen Aid with a meat grinder, sausage maker attachment to grate the potatoes for our latkes. And let me tell y'all it was life changing. They're so aerated that you barely needed any leavening agent. It was incredible.
Eliana:
That's a good idea. I'll do that. Thank you.
Amanda:
Yeah. It was so fun. Definitely tweet to Eric if you have any questions about his latkes at L_Silvero.
Eliana:
I will, thank you. And then the last thing we do is usually at temple after the Purim spiel, after the little show. There's a carnival. Little kids play the bozo buckets and pin the tail. All the general rentable carnival games and raise money for the synagogue, raise money for the community. And you get to watch cute kids play carnival games, in costumes, what's bad about that? It's really a celebration of our existence, which I love. If I can go back over to Vashti, and compare her to Esther.
Julia:
Please.
Eliana:
So they're two very powerful queens. And they show their power in different ways. Vashti shows her power by not getting naked for her husband. And Esther shows her power through her vulnerability. But both women shaped their endings, which I love. Now, if we were to sort these queens, because that's how I look at everybody in my life. I have to sort them. We would put Vashti in Gryffindor and Esther in Slytherin.
Julia:
Oh hell yeah.
Amanda:
I see it. Yeah.
Julia:
Esther's one of my girls.
Eliana:
Esther doesn't show her hand. She's cunning, which is the correct Slytherin trait to admire. Not the racism part.
Julia:
Not the racism. We're not a big fan of the racism here.
Eliana:
And so she knows what she's doing. She's focused. She's training her mind on the things that she has to do to get the outcome that she wants. She's playing the long con.
Amanda:
Yeah, totally.
Eliana:
Whereas Vashti is straight up like, "I don't want to deal with you, bye." Which is a very Gryffindor trait, not wanting to do what you don't want to do so you don't do it.
Amanda:
Yeah, there's definitely strength and a thing to venerate in both. Not dealing with even one ounce of mistreatment and in saying, "Hey, it is unsafe and maybe unwise for me to react in the moment the way I want to, so I'm going to sit back, I'm going to plan, and I'm going to make my move when it's the most effective.
Eliana:
Yeah.
Julia:
Makes sense.
Eliana:
Which is I think so smart. Now another tradition that I learned about while I was doing some research is that throughout history, people would burn effigies of Haman.
Amanda:
Really?
Eliana:
Like Guy Fawkes. From what I understand, it doesn't really happen anymore, but I think it's interesting to take the catharsis to that level. Even still now, it's bad. Antisemitism is real. It's happening. In the past year alone there have been two very visible attacks on my people.
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
It's a bad thing that's happening. So I think the burning of Haman's effigy is a catharsis thing. So yeah, Purim is great. We drink a lot. Esther and Vashti are both two very powerful women. A lot of Jewish girls are named Esther for that reason.
Julia:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
As they should be.
Eliana:
And there's a group called Hadassah. Hadassah is the Hebrew form of the word Esther that's just Jewish women getting together and doing good.
Julia:
Oh hell yeah.
Eliana:
It's all over the country.
Amanda:
That's incredible. And it strikes me to your point a moment ago, that gloating in the face of your enemy's demise would be so understandable, and yet, pretty much every Jewish holiday that I know about at least, acknowledges the fact that it is bad for people to die. It's bad for people to suffer, period. And it's always a very nuanced, compassionate, like you don't have to raise money for the community, you know on Purim? You can just be like, "Fuck you, we're alive. We're going to eat and drink." And that's just not the way it is. So for anyone to characterize Judaism as anything other than fundamentally compassionate and good for the world is so ...
Julia:
Harmful.
Amanda:
I don't know, baffling and harmful to me.
Eliana:
It's harmful. It perpetuates stereotypes that are harmful and incorrect and bad. Terrible. Yeah.
Amanda:
And not to dwell on antisemitism in a celebration of Jewish existence and identity, but yeah, it's just ... I don't get it.
Eliana:
But every holiday ... All of the major holidays we celebrate other than the ones that are in the Torah, besides Passover are celebrations of when we overcame antisemitism.
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
I mean, Hanukkah for example is not in the Torah, it is a very minor holiday. But it is literally a story of the miracle of the light and the miracle of the fact that this rag tag bunch of people defeated the Greeks.
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Totally.
Eliana:
So we celebrate the fact that we're alive throughout the year. And I think that's mostly because of the fact that we've been persecuted throughout history. So yeah. It's interesting to be a Jew now, and it's interesting to see how these stereotypes continue and to see how Haman could still be a person today.
Julia:
Absolutely.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
Which is more terrifying than interesting, but ...
Amanda:
No, it is. And the things you describe, like we were saying earlier. You have to be uncomfortable with the fact that it is predictable that these stories go the way they go and that it's not just an archaic relic of the past that we can point to and be like, "Isn't this something that we all understand to be completely indefensible and we've learned from now?" We haven't and there is urgent work that needs to be done. All of us need to learn from Esther and be Esther and stand up like Esther and make her proud every day.
Eliana:
And be brave in the face of very probably losing your life.
Amanda:
Yeah. Because your personal safety is just one thing. It's not the thing. If your life is governed by ideals that are bigger than just self preservation, it's a real possibility and a real choice. We all hope that these kinds of big sacrifices that we read about in literature, or in history books, or in our religious texts are a factor of the past. But they're just not. And I don't know. As a kid I was so grateful that ... I was like, "Oh, it's so convenient that on Hanukkah we talk about why we're celebrating Hanukkah, and I am six, and at my friend's Hanukkah celebration." And even though I am not Jewish, I get to understand what the story is like and participate in it. But now, knowing the context that all of these holidays that teach you why and how we celebrate them. It's not just to be nice, but it's because celebrating in hiding or needing to transmit your culture, identity, and practices to kids when there isn't safety to have infrastructure to do that in Sunday school or in temple. It's all part of this context and it is generally not a happy one.
Amanda:
But to hear all of the reasons why Purim and so many other holidays like they are, both acknowledging that and also saying, "We're here, let's eat, let's drink." It's just-
Eliana:
The saying is, "They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat."
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
It's beautiful. It's so Jewish.
Eliana:
It's why I ... I'm a non-profit professional and I raise money for my community. And it's why I do what I do, so people can be educated and people can understand and that hopefully this constant terrible cycle of antisemitism can stop.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Eliana:
And I love that I'm so privileged to be able to do that. And it's wonderful.
Amanda:
That's amazing.
Eliana:
So yeah, celebrate Purim. Your friends would love it if you ask, "Hey, can I come and celebrate Purim with you?" We love teaching people about what we do and why we do it. I always say that my favorite part about being alive is that I get to be Jewish. And that I get to be part of this community is so open and welcoming and that I can practice in the way that I choose to practice and that I can not practice in ways I choose not to practice, and how I can make Judaism my own. And I can be Jewish and a feminist and that's amazing.
Amanda:
Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful-
Julia:
Incredible.
Amanda:
And we're really really glad that you were able to come on the show and share that with us.
Eliana:
I was so happy to do it.
Amanda:
Where can people find you on the internet?
Eliana:
You can friend me on Facebook, Eliana Morris, E-L-I-A-N-A M-O-R-R-I-S. And you can follow me on Instagram at the Jewish Ravenclaw, because that is what I am.
Amanda:
Eliana what a good user name!
Julia:
What a good user name!
Eliana:
Yeah. And I have some things up, some Harry Potter things up also under that name. So if you go to fanfiction.net you can find there's a Scorpius and Rose fic that I abandoned because Scorpius is everything, but it started and it's there.
Amanda:
I always say that I'm a podcaster now, but the biggest number of people who are familiar with things that I have made are definitely people who have read my fan fic. It is way more popular than my podcasts will ever be, and I'm chill with that.
Eliana:
Yeah, and if anybody ... shout out announcement, anybody who wants to work with me on an Anthony Goldstein centered fic, hit me up because I would love to do that. Because there's only one fan fic about Anthony Goldstein, the only Jewish student at Hogwarts, and it's terrible.
Julia:
What?
Amanda:
Hey that's bullshit!
Eliana:
So, I need to make a better one. And if you want to help, shout me out. Let me know.
Amanda:
Listen, Eric Silver has complex feelings about no longer being the only person to talk about Jewish things and holidays on Spirits, but I think he's going to be very proud of this episode and of you particularly for shouting out A. Goldstein, everyone's favorite student at Hogwarts.
Eliana:
Yes. He's amazing. So yeah, Instagram, The Jewish Ravenclaw, friend me on Facebook. My husband has just started doing photography a lot, and so he'll take candid pictures of me and put them up there. And you can see-
Amanda:
Oh my god, I'm looking now. So beautiful.
Eliana:
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we just got married a few months ago and we just got back from our honeymoon. So a lot of pictures will be coming up soon from those things. And yeah. Respect your Jewish friends, ask to learn about our culture. Respect your friend to have cultures different than yours. Because usually people will love to explain why they do what they do.
Amanda:
I love that, and I've recommended the book Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin-
Eliana:
Oh yeah, he's great.
Amanda:
As a really helpful primer. Oh good, I'm glad you like him too. Because I have found that book super helpful. I read it at the library a few times and then finally bought a copy because it is really wonderful and a good thing to go back to for those who want to learn more about Judaism. But Eliana, are there any other books that you would like to recommend or ways that people can learn more about Jewish history, feminism, or Esther and Purim in particular?
Eliana:
Yeah, so I'm first going to recommend The Diary of Young Girl, by Anne Frank. Because beyond being a diary of a person who lived during the holocaust and couldn't experience fresh air or life, it's a lot about how she defined her own Judaism as a young girl living in this secret annex. So Diary of a Young Girl. There's a trilogy of historical fiction called Rashi's Daughters. Rashi was a Rabbinic scholar back in the 1100s and each book is told from a point of view of each of his daughters. And it goes through what it was like to be a woman in 1100s Jewish France. And also how traditional Judaism was practiced then. So that's by Maggie Anton, that's really good.
Eliana:
And then also there's a great website called heyalma.com, which I kind of just describe as the Jewish Buzzfeed.
Amanda:
I love that.
Julia:
Incredible.
Eliana:
So it's like a feminist, Jewish, millennial, website. Is the best way to describe it.
Amanda:
Beautiful.
Eliana:
And yeah, go to your library, read the Tanakh, which is the Torah, and then The Prophets, and then the writings. Or read your Bibles that you have at home, and read the Old Testament through the lens of someone who's Jewish, and you'll understand a lot more about who we are. I'm also going to shout out my uncle. His name is Mark Glickman. He has two books out, one is called the Sacred Treasure of the Cairo Genizah. A Genizah is a place where you store Jewish documents. That have the name of God written on them, because you're not supposed to throw those away. And then he has another book called Stolen Words, which is about the massive library that the Nazis amassed of Jewish texts. So the both of those are by Rabbi Mark Glickman, and you can find those on Amazon.
Eliana:
Yeah, I'm happy to recommend Jewish books. Or events that you can go to in your area. Most major cities have a federation that have events specifically for people who are new to the area and want to learn more about Judaism, or who are Jewish and want to find a Jewish community.
Amanda:
Incredible.
Julia:
Fantastic.
Amanda:
Eliana thank you so much. Happy Purim.
Eliana:
Thank you! Thank you so much. Happy Purim to you too.
Amanda:
And listeners, remember.
Julia:
Stay creepy. Stay cool.
Amanda:
Thanks again to our sponsors at Skillshare.com/Spiritstwo, you can get two free months of Skillshare premium. At ThirdLove.com/Spirits you'll get 15% off your purchase. And Motherland premiers on March 18th on Freeform.
Amanda:
Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider, with music by Kevin McCloud and visual design by Allison Wakeman.
Julia:
Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us at Spirits Podcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website, as well as a form to send us your urban legends at Spiritspodcast.com.
Amanda:
Join our member community on Patreon. Patreon.com/Spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Just one dollar gets you access to audio extras with so much more available too. Recipe cards, directors commentaries, exclusive merch, and real, physical gifts.
Julia:
We are a founding member of Multitude, a collective of independent audio professionals. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website, at Multitude.productions.
Amanda:
And above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please share us with your friends. That is the very best way to help us keep on growing.
Julia:
Thank you so much for listening, until next time.