Episode 376: Polly Baker (with Fayge Horesh)
/We’re a mythology podcast, so why are we talking to historian Fayge Horesh about a historical figure? Well, first off she’s not real. But secondly? She’s such a cool example of a hoax becoming a myth!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of pregnancy, misogyny, anti semitism, colonization, abortion, cultural appropriation, and enslavement.
Guest
Fayge Horesh is a public historian, tour guide, and freelance writer. The creator and host of the podcast “D Listers of History,” Fayge brings her research skills, curiosity, and cheekiness to discuss important but mostly forgotten historical figures. They join their audience in exploring what these often colorful people can tell us about ourselves and our society today. In all the work Fayge does, their primary goal is to make both historical stories and the study of history accessible to everyone. History is crucial to understanding where we are now and how we can build a better world in the future.
Housekeeping
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And we're joined today by the host and creator of D Listers of History, Fayge. Fayge, thank you so much for joining us. And I'm so excited and curious to hear what we're going to be talking about today. But first things first, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your podcast, D Listers of History?
FAYGE: Sure. And thank you, I'm so excited to be here. I'm a public historian and I've been a history nerd since I was teeny-tiny. My dream was to teach other people about history. I wanted to be on the History Channel back when the History Channel was, like, actually—
AMANDA: History.
FAYGE: —the history channel.
JULIA: Before the aliens meme guy, I got you.
FAYGE: But it's been neat I've fallen into. So I work as a tour guide and my podcast, D Listers of History, focuses on people who are interesting and important, who you probably didn't learn about in school. We like to say that they're people you've never heard of who changed the world.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: Do you have a personal favorite? Just to get people started off on the show, if they wanted to, like, you know, pick and choose an episode. Do you have a favorite D Lister of History?
FAYGE: I mean, it's always whatever the last one I did was. So right, I'm very excited about Uriah Levy. It's also a very long episode because Uriah Levy's life was bonkers. He was the—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —first Jewish Commodore in the US Navy. And what really makes him important is two things, he ended the practice of flogging in the Navy.
JULIA: Nice. Good.
AMANDA: Thank you.
FAYGE: And he was the one who brought the concept of anti-Semitism into America's legal system. So there was this idea that—
JULIA: Oh.
FAYGE: —because in America, Jews didn't have to, like, pay taxes and things like that. So in places like Germany, there was something called a body tax, which was just like you're a Jew, you have to pay this amount of money. And in America, we didn't have that. So there was this sort of like there's no anti-Semitism in America, which is ridiculous. And he was really the one who came forward and said like, "No, I'm being discriminated against for being Jewish, and that's not okay." And he just refused to be quiet. He was court-martialed a whole bunch of times, mostly for punching people for saying anti-Semitic stuff.
JULIA: Nice.
AMANDA: We love to see it.
FAYGE: I know about him because I'm Jewish, and he's a Philadelphia Jew. And so it's like, he comes up with my tours, and I was really excited to dive in deep.
AMANDA: One of us.
JULIA: We love a man who was punching Nazis before Nazis were a thing.
FAYGE: He would've been all about punching Nazis.
JULIA: The forefather of punching Nazis, I'd say.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: Incredible. Well, people are probably listening to this episode, and they're being like, "Okay, this is super cool stuff I'm super interested in. I'm gonna go look at D Listers of History." But hey, you guys are a mythology and folklore podcast, like what's going on? Why do you have Fayge on? And I am so excited to tell them what we're going to be talking about today. So can you please introduce our— our subject for today's episode?
FAYGE: Yeah. I am so excited because I can't do this person on my podcast for a variety of reasons, which will— which will become clear later on.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: But Polly Baker is who we're going to be talking about, and she is not real. Let's just go ahead and just say that which is why I don't want to talk about her on my podcast because she's not actually a person. But what's interesting about her is she became such a key part of the fabric of enlightenment thought in Europe and in America. And she was made up of whole cloth. People thought she was real. It sort of reminds me of today, we— we worry a lot about things like internet echo chambers, and not just with the scary conspiracies, like QAnon but also silly things. Like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —there was this thing in 2020 where a hoax that you could balance a broom on a specific day of the year. This was like we had nothing to do in lockdown as everybody was out there balancing brooms.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: It was made up, it was silly. It was like sometimes a broom balances if you're really good at balancing. It's the same thing is like you can have an egg sit up on the equinox, like it's not a thing.
JULIA: I was just thinking about the egg and the equinox.
FAYGE: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a scientist, but I've tried that and it did not work, so sample size of one.
JULIA: Amanda, when you think of the egg, do you think of that West Wing episode with C.J. Cregg?
AMANDA: No. I— I haven't watched the West Wing in, like, probably 12 or 13 years.
JULIA: Okay, fair.
AMANDA: So I'm thinking mostly of Instagram videos, and the things that I look at and I feel myself, like, looking at my fridge, being like, "Do I have one?" And I'm like, "No, Amanda, no. We know this is fake." But it's just—it's— it's— I don't know, it's just plausible enough.
JULIA: And I think that's like the key to any of these kinds of stories of, like, people who exist or quote-unquote “people who exist, but aren't actually like people, but we're using them as examples”. And I think Polly Baker is like a really cool example of that. So, yeah, Fayge, let's—let's dive in. Let's do our deep dive.
FAYGE: Yeah. So, Polly Baker is my 18th-century feminist icon.
JULIA: Nice.
AMANDA: Yay.
FAYGE: April 1747, a daily newspaper in London called the General Advertiser printed a courtroom speech given by a woman who was being prosecuted for the fifth time for bearing a child out of wedlock.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: And the location of this trial was given as at Connecticut, near Boston, in New England.
JULIA: At Connecticut—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —near Boston in New England. Okay.
AMANDA: Sure.
FAYGE: Yeah. So I guess the Northeast corner of Connecticut, I don't know.
AMANDA: Can I ask a silly question, Fayge?
FAYGE: Yeah.
AMANDA: Was having a kid outside of wedlock illegal?
FAYGE: Yes.
AMANDA: So it— I guess I'm used to thinking of this period as like, "Oh, it was taboo," or, "Oh, you know, people were judged when they're, you know, unwed and having kids." But it was like—
JULIA: Right.
AMANDA: —it was like a prosecutable crime.
FAYGE: Yes. I— I believe the crime was technically fornication.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: And then there's evidence and— yeah. Got it.
FAYGE: Depending on the situation. Especially in New England, because New England was still very Puritan.
JULIA: Puritan as fuck, yeah.
AMANDA: Yep.
FAYGE: Yeah. One of my favorite lines from the musical 1776 is—
AMANDA: Oh, Julia's best friend.
JULIA: My favorite drinking game, 1776.
FAYGE: I love 1776.
JULIA: It was so good.
FAYGE: I love telling people 1776 is a better musical than Hamilton, fight me.
JULIA: It— you're not wrong in certain ways. I think— I think it's a balancing act. It's better in some aspects and worse in other aspects, but like—
FAYGE: The music is worse. I love the music, but Hamilton ...
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
AMANDA: 1776 ran so that Hamilton could pirouette, maybe.
JULIA: Maybe, yeah. Sure.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: I'm into it.
FAYGE: Yeah, but there's this part of 1776, so there's this plot point that is completely made up and bizarre that Jefferson won't write the Declaration of Independence because he, like, wants to have sex with his wife.
JULIA: He's too horny. Yeah, he won't write because he's too horny.
AMANDA: Yeah. Uh-huh.
FAYGE: And so they— they bring the wife to Philadelphia, but there's this great—
AMANDA: They did.
FAYGE: —part where Franklin and Adams are standing at the bottom of the steps at the Graff House where Jefferson was living. I forget exactly what— what was said, but Adams just goes, "In the middle of the day, Dr. Franklin."
JULIA: "In the middle of the afternoon." Yes, a 100%.
FAYGE: And he goes, "Not everyone is from Boston, Mr. Adams."
JULIA: Yes. Oh, my God. It's just a lot of, like, absolutely roasting John Adams for being such a prude, and then you're like, "But he also has like eight kids at this point, so he's not that much of a prude."
AMANDA: Yeah, he's had sex 8 times, Julia, always at night.
FAYGE: He could tiptoe through Cupid's grove with great agility.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Anyway, thank you for this— for this tangent, but—
JULIA: Yes, we love a 1776 sidebar here.
AMANDA: Illegal to fornicate.
FAYGE: Yeah. So the point being, yes, fornication, not allowed, and either you would be fined or whipped in the public square.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: One is much worse than the other, I think, in most regards.
AMANDA: Yeah. Depending.
FAYGE: I would agree. I think it sort of depends on your situation, but I would definitely agree with that. So this courtroom transcript says that the woman in question is this woman named Polly Baker. She comes forward and says that she's defending herself because she cannot afford a lawyer. And the speech is amazing, but it's too long to just read. So I pulled out the good— the best parts. It's all great.
JULIA: Cool.
AMANDA: Yay.
FAYGE: Actually, it's on the National Archives website, if anybody wants to look up the full thing. Here are the important quotes. "This is the fifth time, gentlemen, that I have been dragged before your courts on the same account. Twice I have paid heavy fines, and twice I have been brought to public punishment for wants of money to pay those fines. This may have been agreeable to the laws, and I don't dispute it, but since laws are sometimes unreasonable in themselves."
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: That's a legal argument. Damn.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: "I have brought five fine children into the world at risk of my life," which sidenote, very much so in those days.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Word.
FAYGE: "I have maintained them well by my own industry without burdening the township and would have done it better if I had not"— sorry, I'm trying to read this, like 18th-century spelling. "If— if it had not been for the heavy charges and fines I have paid. Can it be a crime, in the nature of things, I mean, to add to the number of the king's subjects in a new country that really wants people?"
AMANDA: Hmm. Go in, Polly. Yes.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: Yeah. So we've got, like, this law doesn't make sense, and like I'm doing something that you want me to do, and I haven't been a burden on society. Like, I'm paying for my own kids or whatever.
AMANDA: You— you want colonists, here's future— here's colonists, right? They're— they're born on this soil.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: And we would be able to take care of these kids better if you stop fucking fining me.
AMANDA: Yep.
FAYGE: Now, we get into our fantastic sort of feminist argument. I read this again, and I was like, "Oh, this is kind of like the Barbie movie."
JULIA: It is kind of like the Barbie movie. Yeah, yeah.
FAYGE: "I defy any person to say I ever refused an offer of that sort." That sort being marriage."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: "On the contrary, I readily consented to the only proposal of marriage that ever was made me, which was when I was a virgin. But too easily confiding in the person's sincerity that made it, I unhappily lost my own honor by trusting his, for he got me with child and then forsook me. That very person you all know, he has now become a magistrate of this country."
JULIA: Whoa.
FAYGE: Yeah.
AMANDA: Whoa. Plot twist.
JULIA: Scandal.
FAYGE: "But I must now complain of it as unjust and unequal, that my betrayer and undoer and first cause of all my faults and miscarriages, if they may be deemed as such, should be advanced to honor and power in the government that punishes my misfortunes with stripes and infamy."
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Whoa.
JULIA: Girl. Yeah, you're like, "Oh, yeah, you're all pissed off at me, but this guy has faced nothing, no repercussions for him, whatsoever. In fact, now he's a fucking politician, like this is bullshit." I am so with Polly here. Amazing. We love it. We love to see it.
FAYGE: Yeah. Feminist icon. And then she goes after the— we— we— we didn't have the separation of church and state yet.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: Obviously, especially not in Connecticut. But she goes after it anyway. "If mine, then, is a religious offense, leave it to religious punishments. You have already excluded me from the comforts of your church communion, is that not sufficient? You believe I have offended heaven and must suffer eternal fire, will that not be sufficient?"
JULIA: Must I suffer here on Earth as well as in hell later on?
FAYGE: "What need is there, then, of your additional fines and whipping?"
AMANDA: Yes.
FAYGE: Yeah, she's a rock star. Then she goes on this whole tangent about how there's too many bachelors, and that men are like running around, and just having a good time, and not taking on the responsibility of marriage. Because marriage in those days wasn't just about falling in love and stuff, like that was obviously ideal.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: But it was also just like— man, before we had washing machines and stuff, like there was a lot to do—
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: —just to keep the house going. I can't keep my house going and I have—
JULIA: I have all the machines.
FAYGE: —all the modern conveniences.
AMANDA: Yeah. No, it's— it's so true, and it's also a— a problem for the state, right? Like, especially a, you know, fledgling theocracy like the United States at that time. They want to put forth the mission of, as she says, like birthing more of the King's subjects and birthing more soldiers, and controlling how and when people can reproduce and how they get support for doing so, how tax breaks and other things incentivize people to form family units. It divvies up responsibility. It's an absolutely cogent point, where, like, if we are going to make laws that say that people must after being— you know, reaching maturity and make family units of their own a specific size and shape, then each person has to do their part. And you can't just say that, me, bearing children that someone else got on me and did not, you know, come up with all the benefits, you can't just punish one of us. Come on.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: Yeah. And she actually suggests, as a solution to this problem, bachelors be fined, double the amount of money that is fined for fornication each year that they are unmarried.
JULIA: Oh, my gosh.
AMANDA: Hey, these are some materialist solutions here.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: I also love this because Amanda has, in the past couple of years, gotten me really into Regency romance novels, and I'm like—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —thinking I'm like, "All the plots to this could be solved if we had just implemented what Polly had suggested here."
AMANDA: Yes.
FAYGE: There's a lot of that in Polly. So her final thing, which to me, is just the slam dunk. This is how she finishes out the speech. I love this. I read this and I was like, "I— I love Polly."
AMANDA: I have no choice but to stan.
FAYGE: "The duty of the first and great command of nature and of nature's God, increase and multiply. A duty from the steady performance of which nothing has been able to deter me, but for its sake, I have hazarded the loss of the public esteem and have frequently endured public disgrace and punishment, and therefore, ought in my humble opinion, instead of a whipping, to have a statue erected in my memory."
JULIA: Yeah, Polly.
AMANDA: Sorry, I'm too good at nature's mandate, people.
FAYGE: Yes. So that's her slam dunk.
AMANDA: Damn.
FAYGE: And then the story goes on to say that Polly is then freed of her charges and marries one of the judges the next day.
JULIA: She marries the judge the next day?
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: What?!
AMANDA: Fascinating. Some judge is like, "Oh, like Bill over there is gonna screw you over. No, no, no, I'm smarter than him. One, please."
JULIA: I need like a Bridgerton spin-off—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —Netflix mini-series of Polly's life leading up to the romance of the judge and then them getting married. Like, that's the season finale.
FAYGE: That would be pretty amazing.
JULIA: That's what I need in my life right now.
AMANDA: So good. So Fayge, as— as a historian, are there any orange or red flags for you at this point? Like, I know the name Polly is kind of like a, you know, a low-class-ish, like, nickname. Is Polly's name or anything about this story, or how it was reported giving off maybe not totally true to you?
FAYGE: The one big thing is that women typically were not allowed to speak in court.
AMANDA: That'll do it.
FAYGE: I think it varied from colony to colony and even city to city. That's not my specialty. But there's a lot of references to men saying like, "Imagine if women could speak in court, how much better the speeches in court would be." And that sort of thing.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Word.
JULIA: And they would be correct.
FAYGE: So that implies they can't. Polly Baker is a pretty typical name. Polly is a nickname for Mary.
JULIA: Sorry, sometimes nicknames just make me laugh—
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: —because I'm like, "How'd you get there, huh?"
FAYGE: Yeah, no idea. But what really gives it an interesting sort of like, what's— is this real? Like, what's going on here? Is that the English-speaking world has been primed for this Polly Baker moment.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: Because in the previous decades, plays and stories and stuff have been obsessed with women who had something terrible happened to them and then they become sex workers to survive.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Hmm.
FAYGE: We still love this, right? Like this is—
AMANDA: So the fallen woman, right? Yeah.
FAYGE: Yeah. Or—
AMANDA: Pretty Woman.
FAYGE: —in Westerns, it's called the whore with the heart of gold.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Ah, yes, of course.
FAYGE: The English-speaking world loves this stuff, and the first notable example of this comes from Daniel Defoe in 1722. He's most famous for writing Robinson Crusoe. He wrote a bunch of other stuff too, though, and one of the ones he wrote was named Moll Flanders.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: Moll being another nickname of Mary.
AMANDA: I read this in school.
FAYGE: Oh, really?
JULIA: I didn't, but I've heard of it.
FAYGE: I have not read it. Do you remember it?
AMANDA: It's very what you expect.
FAYGE: She's born in prison, raised by a foster family, falls in love with the older foster brother, but runs around from man to man, like stealing stuff, having some indeterminate number of children who were never named before finding her way back to her first love. And she confesses her sins, and there it is.
JULIA: All is right in the world.
FAYGE: But clearly, Defoe really liked this trope because he wrote a second book on this topic called Roxana or The Fortunate Mistress, which is more like high class. Like Moll is like little lower class, Roxana, little higher class.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: I mean, the name has an X in it. Come on, it's very French.
JULIA: I was also about to say, "Did they base the song Roxanne on that novel?" Who can say?
AMANDA: Possible.
FAYGE: It's very possible. Another really popular thing that's worth mentioning that has this trope in it from that era is The Beggar's Opera by John Gay.
JULIA: Oh. So Amanda and I did The Beggar's Opera in high school, so we are familiar with it.
FAYGE: I love that. I learned about The Beggar's Opera from my basic repertoire class in college, so, like, this is—
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: Whoa.
FAYGE: —a big deal opera. Especially in the English-speaking world, because we don't have a lot of big deal operas in English.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. We don't.
FAYGE: Unless you count Broadway musicals, which I do, but that's a whole debate.
JULIA: Right. But like the classic opera, it was like you're— you're either in Italian, French, or German, those are your only options.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And German is like, you're pushing the envelope a bit there.
JULIA: Like, generous.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: So in the— but they— they lampshade it in The Beggar's Opera, as I understand it, because you have Polly Peacham, so we have Polly again.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And her parents were upset with her because she married a famous highwayman in secret. And they're not upset with her because he's a highwayman, they're upset with her because she got married.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: And correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been well more than a decade since I listened to it.
JULIA: It's been a while for us as well, so that's fair.
AMANDA: It's a— a satire, right? And so people are like, "Everyone's motivation is like not quite what it should be."
FAYGE: Yeah. And so—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —the quote that I pulled out was, "Do you think your mother and I should have lived comfortably so long together if ever we had been married?"
AMANDA: Incredible. Incredible. It's a real—
FAYGE: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —Debra moment. It's a real— you know, Julia, give me more sitcoms. Everyone— The King of Queens, et cetera.
JULIA: Any like married couple sitcom, I think, that works for.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: At the end, there is— you— you find out that this guy has, like, four women who are pregnant with his children and stuff, and he's supposed to be hanged, but then there's a happy ending because the audience insists upon it. So—
AMANDA: Nice.
FAYGE: —that's English satirical opera.
JULIA: Yep, yep.
FAYGE: But we still— like I said, we still love this, this trope. We have like Pretty Woman is a really classic example of this.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And Moulin Rouge, which is actually La traviata, which was actually something else. I don't remember what La traviata was based on. But we— we love this— we love this character.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And we have loved this character since the 18th century. It was really common practice at the time for newspapers to reprint stories from other newspapers.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: Oftentimes without attribution.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Yep. Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: The idea that we have today of newspapers being— you know, of like journalistic integrity and fact-checking is very recent, like 20th century.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: Not even all the 20th century.
AMANDA: And to a certain extent, you can still kind of trace it to things like news wires, right? Or just like a— you know, you licensed to the— the Associated Press and you just kind of like reprint and add to their news wires in a more, you know, allowed way, but it grew out of something.
FAYGE: Not just like, "I read this thing, and I'm going—"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: "—to re-put it out and send it on its way."
AMANDA: It's the— basically— Fayge, what you're saying, and I'm putting words in your mouth here, is that this is the equivalent of like screenshotting a Tumblr post and then putting it on Twitter, screenshotting the tweet and then putting it on Instagram.
FAYGE: Yes.
JULIA: It was early copypasta, that's what it is.
FAYGE: Yes. No, literally, yes—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —that's exact— that is a perfect example. Or that— that meme where the person sees a thing and says, "That's so cool." And he grabs and goes, "This is mine now."
JULIA: Yep, yep.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Exactly right. Exactly correct.
FAYGE: So it gets published all over London, and it makes its way outside London to, like, Bath. It makes its way to Dublin, even, by the end of the month.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: Where they love having kids.
FAYGE: Love it.
JULIA: That's true.
FAYGE: Don't love being part of the British Empire, because they still are at this moment, but—
AMANDA: Uh-uh.
FAYGE: —but the— the fact that it took only a month to get to Dublin is pretty impressive, because at this time, like they didn't have the electronic way of sending these things. It had to be like a physical newspaper had to end up in somebody's hands. But one of the most important publications to have reprinted it was a magazine called Gentleman's Magazine, which was printed by a man named Edward Cave.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Cool name.
FAYGE: Very cool name, but he still had a pen name, Sylvanus Urban.
AMANDA: Oh, fancy.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: Yeah.
AMANDA: What are we, a Protestant? Come on.
FAYGE: He's actually— his newspaper's tagline was actually E pluribus unum—
AMANDA: Hmm.
FAYGE: —which—
JULIA: a
FAYGE: Yeah, it's theorized that's where Benjamin Franklin got the phrase from— for our currency—
AMANDA: Really?
FAYGE: Theorize, to be clear. We don't know.
AMANDA: Sorry, headcanon. Nope, you can't take it back.
FAYGE: It's notable because it was really universally read across the English-speaking world.
AMANDA: Gotcha.
FAYGE: I was gonna say the Time Magazine, but that's a terrible example, because Time Magazine is not Time Magazine anymore.
AMANDA: Or, like, I was getting like Harper's Bazaar or like Variety vibes.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Yeah.
FAYGE: Yeah, that's— yeah, very much that. So, like, we know that like Benjamin Franklin was a subscriber, and he wasn't alone.
AMANDA: Now, I know the story takes a turn as it crosses the Atlantic and maybe re-crosses and crosses back. But first, let's grab a quick refill.
FAYGE: Cool.
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JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. Let's start by thanking our newest patrons over at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, RJ, MusicChicaMia, Pameler, and Sarah. Welcome, welcome, welcome. You join the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And of course our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Jeremiah, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you, too, can join us at patreon.com/spiritspodcast today to get some cool rewards, like ad-free episodes or recipe cards for every single gosh darn episode, or fun stuff like tarot card readings that I do on every solstice and equinox. Check that out, again, at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I don't have a recommendation for you this week, but I do want to recommend that you buy tickets for our tour. 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AMANDA: We're back. Fayge, I am dying to know what happens next in the sordid tale.
FAYGE: Gentleman's Magazine adds that the judge that Polly married was a specific judge. He gave him a name, named Paul Dudley.
JULIA: Dudley.
FAYGE: And says that they had 15 children together.
JULIA: So 20 total is what I'm—
FAYGE: Yes.
JULIA: —getting from that. Girl.
AMANDA: That's a lot.
JULIA: And she even said in her speech, she's like, "I'm putting my life on the line every time I have one of these kids."
FAYGE: Yeah, go forth and multiply, I guess. She's doing it. But here's— here's a kind of a weird moment. So the magazine has not made it to America yet, so it's been, like, just like a month and a half, basically. A letter is printed in the Gentleman's Magazine from someone named William Smith, which is like John Smith. Like— it's like just a super typical name.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And he claims that he met Polly Baker in 1745, and she was almost 60 years old, and that she had married this Paul Dudley, Esquire, of Roxbury and confirmed the existence of the 15 children.
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: Wow.
FAYGE: It— it also brings up this— this concept of a custom in New England called bundling, which is where a couple that is—
JULIA: Like my home insurance or—
FAYGE: Way more fun than home insurance.
AMANDA: I'm suspicious.
JULIA: He was like, "Home and auto." Right, yes, of course.
FAYGE: So a— a young couple that had been promised to one another would lay in bed together fully clothed.
JULIA: Oh, I've heard of this. Okay. Yes.
FAYGE: Then sometimes they would, like, strap a piece of wood between the two of them or whatever, but— so he brings up this like New England tradition of bundling.
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
FAYGE: This is a big claim because—
AMANDA: I— I just— home and auto insurance, I cannot think of it now, Julia.
JULIA: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I put that in your brain.
FAYGE: I'm obsessed. I love it.
AMANDA: It's 18th-century cuffing, I'm ready. Okay.
FAYGE: So naming Paul Dudley is a choice, because he was the chief justice of Massachusetts.
AMANDA: Oh.
FAYGE: And the son and grandson of two previous Massachusetts governors.
AMANDA: Probably people who don't want their son marrying an unwed mother.
JULIA: Yeah. And the fact that it's traceable is a big thing, too.
FAYGE: Right. And also doesn't make him look good, especially because Dudley, Justice Dudley was known for being deeply religious and extremely strict.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: Yeah, so this is a big claim.
AMANDA: And it was sort— like a quasi-anonymous, like pen named letter.
FAYGE: Yeah.
AMANDA: Okay.
FAYGE: William Smith. We have no idea.
JULIA: Could have been anyone.
FAYGE: But what's interesting, and I'm putting a pin in this because it'll come back, this letter came out in the paper, this letter that has information that you would think would come from an American because it's I met her—
AMANDA: I was there.
FAYGE: —in Connecticut or whatever, before the story made it to America's shores.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Oh, okay.
AMANDA: Feels like outside corroboration, right?
FAYGE: Yes. I'm gonna put a pin on that. Not long after, somebody else named L Americana. JULIA: Cool name.
FAYGE: —which is definitely a pen name.
AMANDA: Uh-huh. Quick, let's just go around the horn. What do we think the L stands for?
JULIA: Ooh. For some reason, my brain said Bartholomew, but starting with an L, so Lortholomew?
AMANDA: Great. Thank you, Julia. Great. Fayge?
FAYGE: Honestly, the first thing that came to my mind was Larry, which is—
JULIA: Lawrence is doable. Lawrence is doable.
FAYGE: —not incredible.
JULIA: I'm— I'm here with it.
AMANDA: And mine is Loni Love, because I've been watching a lot of Drag Race, so great.
FAYGE: Yeah, So L Americana writes a letter that is also then printed in Gentleman's Magazine, saying that— this could not have been Paul Dudley, because Paul Dudley never presided over courts in Connecticut and he was married to the late daughter of Governor Winthrop and had no children.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Makes that hard to do. Sure.
FAYGE: It also kicks up a fuss about this bundling thing. It says that it was only practiced by the, quote, "lowest sort."
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. It was more of, like—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —working-class kind of situation than a upper crust situation.
AMANDA: I don't know. I'm— I'm simply picturing like the English bluebloods doing it. It— it sounds very upper-class to me.
FAYGE: It just sounds—
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: —very 18th century to me. It's like—
JULIA: Yeah, yeah.
FAYGE: —plausible deniability. We have our clothes on right? Everything's fine, purity culture. So it does finally make its way to America in July without the debate between Williams and Americana because, of course, that's happened after the papers would have left.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: We're on the crossing the ocean time here. Yeah.
FAYGE: Yes. They got printed all over the place, in most major cities. The only city didn't print it, interestingly, was Philadelphia.
JULIA: Oh. Interesting. Maybe too close to the source.
AMANDA: Oh, oh. Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And my favorite reprinting was this Maryland Gazette by this guy Jonas Green, who claimed that the version that had been reprinted was not accurate and he had an—
AMANDA: Oh, of course.
FAYGE: —accurate version. He does not explain why he has this more accurate version, but the— his version includes the following line, "Reflect a little on the horrid consequences of this law in particular, what number of procured abortions and how many distressed mothers have been driven by the terror of punishment and public shame, to imbrue contrary to nature, their own trembling hands in the blood of their helpless offspring? Nature would have induced them to nurse it up with a parent's fondness. 'Tis the law, therefore, 'tis the law itself that is guilty of all these barbarities and murderers. Repeal it then, gentlemen, let it be expunged forever from your books."
JULIA: Holy shit.
FAYGE: I know, right?
AMANDA: Going hard. Also, checks watch, exact same arguments happening right now.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: Just wild that we're still doing this.
FAYGE: History is like an ouroboros. So, also at this time, Paul Dudley finds out.
AMANDA: I'm— I'm picturing him at, like, a very classy breakfast table, reading an— like opening a magazine and then going, "What now?"
JULIA: What happened?
AMANDA: "I'm catching strays in England?"
JULIA: All of his, like, servants and stuff talking behind— they're like whispering behind their backs, yeah.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
FAYGE: Yeah. So he's mad, apparently, because a year later in 1748, Edward Cave publishes this, like, very groveling apology to Paul Dudley.
JULIA: Uh-huh. Sure. Sure. Makes sense.
FAYGE: So this speech continues to be reprinted. Even once the newspapers are done with it, it gets reprinted in books, especially by deists.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: So Deism was a really popular philosophy during the Enlightenment period. There's variety of types of deists and stuff, but the general trust is that God created the world and then just left it to run on its own. It's like the great—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —watchmaker.
JULIA: Yeah, the shorthand is always the— the watchmaker god. The idea of, like, everything's in its place, and now I'm just gonna leave it alone because everything's gonna run the way it's supposed to.
FAYGE: Yeah. And so be— and then, so the deist said, "Okay. So given that, there is this, you know, this idea of natural law versus church law." And they're not necessarily the same thing.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And the churches didn't like this very much, because it's implying that their laws were made by man, not by God.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Hmm. Important.
FAYGE: Yeah. That— that cau—that caused—that caused a lot of uproar in society and politics, and so forth. And a lot of the stuff in our founding documents is based on these ideas. I mean, Thomas Jefferson, his wall between church and state and so forth, was likely inspired by the writings of deists.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: So how did they get in the mix? What's their beef with Polly?
FAYGE: Oh, they love Polly. They stan Polly.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: We're big fans of Polly out there. Great.
FAYGE: So this comes into the deists— well, in a variety of ways, but the really famous one is in France in the 1770s. This guy named Abbe Raynal he started his career as a Jesuit priest, which is why it was called Abbe, but he got kicked out. We don't know why.
AMANDA: Cool.
FAYGE: I have some thoughts.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And he became a noted Enlightenment author. He wrote about Polly. But this guy was a cha— clearly, a character, because people either loved him or hated him,
JULIA: Also got kicked out of being a priest, so you got to think that he's, you know, stirring the pot a little bit out there.
FAYGE: Not just a priest, but a Jesuit priest. Like Jesuits—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —as I understand, are pretty interested in like intellectual thought and, like, questioning—
JULIA: Yeah, they're all about learning.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I can say having a move from one side to the other, Jesuits are the closest we get to rabbis.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Not— not near, but the closest possible.
FAYGE: What did he do to get the Jesuits mad?
AMANDA: Yeah, really.
FAYGE: So John Adams liked him. John Adams said, "Monsieur Raynal is the most eloquent man I ever heard speak in French."
AMANDA: Oh.
FAYGE: I like that qualification.
JULIA: You're like, "Not— non-general, because that's me. But in French, he's got it. "
FAYGE: Yeah. He says, you know, he talks a great deal when it's very entertaining. But some other folks didn't like him very much. Edward Gibbon, who is a British historian said that Raynal was intolerably loud, peremptory, and insolent. And you would imagine that he alone was the monarch and legislator of the world."
AMANDA: Among this ki— this sort of class or social group, I imagine it was difficult to get them to say that about someone else. Because maybe it's just my mind or 1776, but I imagine a lot of men just talking loudly at each other.
FAYGE: I mean, yeah, that happens. They also were very fond of saying stuff like this in the press under pen names.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: Especially our early elections in America, there's wild stuff that Adams and Jefferson and—
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
FAYGE: —all these guys were printing about each other.
AMANDA: It's kind of heartwarming to realize we've always been like this.
FAYGE: No, we've always been ridiculous. And then my favorite is this guy, Horace Walpole, who I'd never heard of. He was a British gossip.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: So I'm imagining like in Bridgerton, like the—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —the— the paper or whatever. That's my guess. I have no idea. But what he said, which I think is hysterical, was, "There never was such an impertinent and tiresome old gossip."
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: Wow. Damn.
FAYGE: Which, coming from someone whose literal profession is being a gossip.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: That's saying something.
FAYGE: So Raynal wrote a book that I have translated into English because I've learned the hard way that I cannot pronounce French. A Philosophical and Political History of the Settlements and Trade of the Europeans in the East and West Indies.
AMANDA: Okay.
FAYGE: This comes out in 1770. And as far as history concerned, it's wildly inaccurate.
JULIA: So much was.
AMANDA: Yeah. Like— like most colonists writing about the Indies. Sure.
FAYGE: Yeah. When a French guy writing about anything that wasn't France.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And it includes this amazing line, which got some people pretty mad. "It must be a matter of astonishment to find that America has not yet produced a good poet, an able mathematician, or a man of genius in any single art or science."
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: Wow.
FAYGE: 1770, a lot of heavy hitters had something to say about that.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Yeah.
FAYGE: Jefferson notably wrote to him and was like Benjamin Franklin—
AMANDA: Various people.
FAYGE: —David Rittenhouse.
JULIA: There's people, my guy, there's people.
FAYGE: But he brought up Polly's speech to demonstrate the severity of the laws in New England, and he reported her experiences historical fact. He included the subsequent marriage to an unnamed judge, but did not include the 15 children.
JULIA: Hmm. Okay.
FAYGE: And he added quite a bit of vitriol to Polly's part. Mostly around how unfair it was that women could pay for one act for the rest of their lives, but men did not endure that.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: True. Facts.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: And Polly kind of got at that with her statement, being like, "This one guy, you know, he promised he was going to marry me, and now he's a magistrate, and here I am, so what's up with that?"
FAYGE: Well, Raynal added a few lines that make it even more clear. She's saying, "No gentlemen, heaven is not merciless and unjust as you are."
AMANDA: Wow.
FAYGE: "Oh, just and good God, god repairer of evils and injustices. It is to thee I appeal the sentence of my judges. Do not avenge me, do not punish them, but deign to enlighten them and soften them."
AMANDA: What a good Christian woman. This is—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: There's—there's parable vibes coming for me now.
JULIA: Right.
FAYGE: Oh, yeah, it's very like, you know, forgive them, God, they know not what they do.
JULIA: For sure.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: Which I'm sure made some people pretty upset. So Polly was a really useful character for the Enlightenment thinkers, because they were really into this idea of natural laws versus religious law. And she fits right into—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —that beautifully. She keeps popping up in various places for the rest of the 18th century and the early 19th century. She even pops up in the 20th century. There was a history called The Social History of the American family.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: —which was considered like a seminal text for historians to read at one point in time. And in the 1945 edition, she is included as historical fact.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Okay. Interesting. So, we were— we were, like, claiming her well into modernity.
FAYGE: Yes. And there was another American Law Journal, which has Supreme Court decisions in it and stuff, printed in her case.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Wow. I mean, it seems like something that would be very easily verifiable. Did no one bother or what's the story? How did this become codified?
JULIA: Or were they just taking, like, the newspapers at the time at their ward?
FAYGE: I think it's a little of— of both, like taking newspapers at their ward, which you should never do if you're doing historical research.
JULIA: Yeah. All right.
FAYGE: It isn't that easy to verify this stuff, because it was all handwritten.
AMANDA: Hmm.
FAYGE: And especially in 1945, to verify, you'd have to, like, go to Connecticut, and find wherever these documents were held, hope that they even had the documents from that era, read through hundreds and hundreds of pages to find this person in, like, old, like, handwritten, faded— like, it wasn't that easy— by— by 1945, it's not easy to verify.
JULIA: And at that point, you know, the likelihood of it having burned in a fire, having like— you know, gotten water damage from a storm and had rotted away. Like, there are so many things that could have happened if there, theoretically, were like copies and proof that you simply— you know, because archivists, to a certain extent, didn't always do their jobs appropriately, because we didn't enlist a lot of care into that aspect of history. It's very likely that even if it did exist, you might not be able to find it anymore.
FAYGE: Yeah. Like the— the holding on to old stuff, so to speak, is— is pretty new. Like here in Philadelphia—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —we don't have Benjamin Franklin's house. The only house that Benjamin Franklin ever lived in is in London.
AMANDA: Wow. Surprising.
FAYGE: They— you know what? They needed a road to connect Chestnut Street and Market Street. So—
JULIA: Yeah. Like, Boston's lucky that they still have the Paul Revere House, like that's— that's it at the end of the day. Like, we, like, genuinely don't know if these people are going to be historically important, and so a lot of people were like, "Well, we're just going to tear it down, because we have to build new buildings. Just because of one guy lived here one time, doesn't mean we're not going to do that."
AMANDA: Well, with all these challenges in place, this, again, might be a very basic question for a historian, but how are we certain that she wasn't real?
FAYGE: Good question. This book by a historian named Max Hall. I actually found this book when I was in New Orleans on a solo trip. I was on Bourbon Street and I was drunk in the middle of the day. I found a used bookshop, and I used book shop drunk, and I found this book.
JULIA: Honestly, the best activity to do while drunk, in my personal opinion, so—
FAYGE: Yeah. I— I actually still use the— the bookmark that was from the story and I don't usually use bookmarks, just because it makes me smile every time. But Max Hall somehow stumbled across Polly and just, like, made it his life's work to find every reference to Polly anywhere.
AMANDA: Bless you, Max.
FAYGE: One of those references refers to where did Polly come from, who wrote Polly, and we know that.
JULIA: Whoa.
AMANDA: We know the person behind the tale?
FAYGE: Well, in France, Benjamin Franklin like to hold court in his home in Passy.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: As one does.
FAYGE: The nobility and great thinkers of France loved him. He was very popular. And part because he knew how to play up his Americanness. Like, he was the wealthiest man in America at the time. He was part of our new aristocracy, so to speak.
AMANDA: Hmm.
FAYGE: But when he went to France, they were expecting him to wear homespun and fur caps, so that's what he did.
JULIA: Yeah. He like fully, like, just loved to wear like a raccoon hat, like would sometimes fully dressed as like a Native American and— because that's what France expected him to be like. It— it's wild. It's a truly wild stuff.
FAYGE: Yeah. I don't think the man split a log in his life.
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: He had— he had baby hands and, yeah, dressed in like trapper's fur.
FAYGE: It was all very silly. But while he was there, one of the things he started telling people is that he wrote the story of Polly Baker.
AMANDA: Really?
FAYGE: It was used as a little bit of a gotcha for our— our buddy, Abbe Raynal because the Americans were very upset with him—
AMANDA: Yeah.
FAYGE: —for saying that we hadn't produced anybody of note in any situation, where like, "Well, I know that this one part of your book isn't true, because Benjamin Franklin told me that he wrote it."
JULIA: Damn.
FAYGE: And Ben Franklin was known for his comedic writing and for his hoaxes.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: One of his first moments as a writer was as a teenager when he fooled his brother into printing these— these letters from someone named Silence Dogood who was a woman.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Silence Dogood.
AMANDA: I love Silence Dogood.
JULIA: Middle-aged woman, Ben Franklin, Silence Dogood.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: Yeah. So this is well within his like wheelhouse here.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And what really gives veracity to this claim that Benjamin Franklin had of writing Polly was, first of all, John Adams talked about it. And John Adams by this point—
JULIA: Hmm.
FAYGE: —was 100% done with Benjamin Franklin's bullshit.
JULIA: Yup, yup.
FAYGE: He wrote the most scathing letters to the Congress that were like, "This guy's inappropriate. He's carousing with women. I walked in on him naked once." Like—
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: Poor John.
FAYGE: Which I'm so glad we know that happened.
AMANDA: Yeah.
FAYGE: And so the fact that John Adams— actually, John Adams brought it up as an example of Franklin's immorality.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: He made up this— this salacious tale. It also follows Franklin's writing style. Franklin also grew up in Boston, so he was well aware of New England's various puritanical stuff. He was also a voracious reader, and he was likely aware of some similar cases that had happened around that time. Most notably, 1745, which was two years before Polly was printed, a woman named Eleanor Kellogg was punished for bearing her fifth child out of wedlock.
Amanda: Hmm.
JULIA: There it is, there it is. Sometimes you just need that little nugget as an author and you just fly away with it.
FAYGE: And also the fact that it wasn't printed in Philadelphia.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: It's weird. This thing was like catching fire across the English-speaking world, but Benjamin Franklin's papers did not print this story.
AMANDA: That's right.
JULIA: Too close to home, didn't want to be connected to it.
FAYGE: Oh, yeah. Especially because he had a child who was euphemistically called a natural child.
AMANDA: Ah.
FAYGE: His first son, William is generally accepted to be the son of Franklin and some unknown mother.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: He also then decided to stay loyal to the British, who was the last royal governor of New Jersey.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. He was like the governor of New Jersey and got arrested for being a loyalist. And then after the war ended up, like still maintaining office somewhere, if I remember correctly.
FAYGE: Yeah. His Sunday dinners are little— little awkward.
JULIA: A little awkward in the— the Franklin household.
FAYGE: And on top of that— I don't know if this is just related to the— the— since the book didn't mention this, but I think it's pertinent. Franklin was not actually technically married to his wife, Deborah.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: They had what was called a common-law marriage. So it wasn't like—
AMANDA: Ah.
FAYGE: —illegal, it was kind of in this weird gray area legally. Her parents didn't want her to marry Benjamin Franklin, because they thought he wasn't going to amount to anything.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: A misread.
FAYGE: And decided to marry some other guy who then, like, stole her dowry, and ran away to the Caribbean.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
FAYGE: Never to be heard from again. So Franklin then married her. There's some— there's some theories that— I mean, obviously, they knew each other and liked each other, but there's some theories that it might have been part— been a marriage of convenience because Franklin comes with this child. You know, if you marry Deborah, you're potentially being tried for bigamy if this other guy ever shows up again.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: Like we said before, like marriages were in part, just being able to function in society in 18th century.
AMANDA: It's like a driver's license. You need some kind of contract to function.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: So Franklin just already has beef with marriage laws in general in the— the colonies.
FAYGE: And he might not have wanted it printed in his papers where people might be like, "Huh? That seems kind of similar."
JULIA: To your situation, Ben.
AMANDA: Hey, wait a minute.
FAYGE: So the question becomes, why London? What is happening here? Fine, not Philadelphia, but why not someplace closer, like Baltimore or—
JULIA: Boston.
FAYGE: Literally like anywhere that was on the side of the Atlantic. So Max Hall, the author of this book, if you did all this research on Polly, theorizes that it was either Benjamin Franklin himself or a member of his Philosophical Society, The Junto.
JULIA: Okay.
FAYGE: Who he probably read the letter to—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —as just sort of a "I wrote this funny thing," sent the speech to someone in London, who is connected to the publishing houses. This also further supports the idea that is Franklin, because Franklin spent time as a journeyman—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —in London. And he still had contacts. He had contacts in the printing world. I mean, the rest of his life in London that he wrote to, including someone who, like, work for Edward Cave.
AMANDA: Hmm. The ties, they tie. The threads, they tie together.
FAYGE: Yeah. It also brings up this idea of— I brought up William Smith, it being kind of a weird thing. So Max Hall theorizes that maybe Franklin wrote the letter from William Smith, and sent it with the speech to be printed—
JULIA: Ah.
FAYGE: —a month later.
JULIA: Interesting.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
FAYGE: That is purely guessing—
JULIA: It's a theory.
FAYGE: —but it would be un—un-character for Franklin to do that. Oh, and on top of that, when he was an apprentice to his brother in Boston, his brother got in trouble because he was criticizing Justice Dudley.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: When it all comes together.
AMANDA: Settling your brother's beef in the British magazines. Love to see it.
JULIA: Incredible. Oh, my gosh.
AMANDA: Fayge, this is like an episode of Unsolved Mysteries Resolved. This is incredible.
FAYGE: I love Polly ever so much. I'm so glad I had the opportunity to do this because I was like, "I can't really talk about her because she's not real and she was written by Benjamin Franklin who is not a woman.
JULIA: You could do a whole series, though, just on Ben Franklin's, like, pseudonyms.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: I feel like that would be really fun.
FAYGE: Oh, my gosh, so many. It was my first, like, obsession as a small—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: —child was Benjamin Franklin. And so he's— he's— he's one place in my heart, even as I learned—
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah.
FAYGE: —that he like enslaved people and like—
JULIA: And unfortunately, so many of the people that were introduced to, like, in our early history, like learning about history.
FAYGE: Yeah.
JULIA: Our founding fathers who also enslaved the people, and that's not ideal, by any means, because we don't teach children about that as well. So we have the soft spots in our hearts for these extremely flawed and terrible men, because that's the way we're taught.
FAYGE: Yeah. When I'm defending Benjamin Franklin, I like to make note that people make a lot of fuss about him carousing with women in France and things like that.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: But all of those relationships were as far as we can tell, consensual.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: And not just consensual between him and the woman, but like, we have letters from the husbands of these women who knew and were, like, not just okay with it, but they were into it, because it was like good for their social standing for their wife to be like a mistress of sorts of Benjamin Franklin.
JULIA: Like, "Thanks for taking care of my— my hot wife, Ben. We get to talk about it at the Gentlemen's Club, really cool. Appreciate it."
FAYGE: Yeah. Like, they like sat— they were like together— like they both had gout at the same time, and they, like, wrote letters to each other. Like, from the perspective of their gout—
JULIA: Cool, cool, cool.
FAYGE: —it's very weird.
JULIA: Oh, my God, yes.
AMANDA: God, we're such weirdos, and we have been the whole time.
FAYGE: We don't know what happens with his son, William. We don't know who his mother was. We— there's a lot of question marks. But there's something to be said. But usually, it's not the man who's coming with the— with the child.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: You're right. I— i guess I assumed a sort of tragic circumstance for why that is. But it's possible that Williams' mom went on to live a fascinating and full life on her own accord.
FAYGE: Or it was tragic and he still took responsibility for the kid.
AMANDA: Yeah.
FAYGE: He could have walked away and nobody would have thought a single thing of it. That's actually how he got onto the boat to go to Philadelphia. He lied and said that he had gotten a girl pregnant, and he was trying to run away.
JULIA: Oh, classic, classic Ben.
FAYGE: Yeah. So Polly Baker can be seen as just like a quirk of history, like just kind of a funny story that's just funny on its own merits. But what I think is really— what it really shows is that humanity has always been kind of guileless.
JULIA: Yeah.
FAYGE: Especially when something supports our preconceived notions.
AMANDA: Yeah.
FAYGE: The deists loved this gift, because she was saying exactly what they wanted her to say. And also that we've always had a sense of humor, especially on Franklin's part.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
FAYGE: And she is demonstrative of some really important debates in the 18th century that are still happening today and became central to the formation of our constitution. Like, namely, how much say should religion have in our laws? And which morals are universal and which ones are religious dogma? These are questions that the founders then had to grapple with when they wrote the constitution. And I think, thank goodness, they decided to just separate religion and the law, but that wasn't a foregone conclusion.
AMANDA: A 100%. So much resonance for us now, and this is such an interesting myth, and constructed narrative for a purpose, even if the purpose is fun and maybe revenge. I'm taking so much away from it, and I'm going to be thinking about Polly and her story and that badass speech for a long time to come.
JULIA: Yes, me as well. And Fayge, thank you so much for bringing the story to us and— and telling us such a— a wonderful tale, a hilarious tale. Can you tell people a little bit more about where they can find you and your work so they can hear other fantastic tales like that?
FAYGE: Yeah. So D Listers of History is on all the various pod catchers, and you can find both the podcast and our socials and stuff on our website, dlistersofhistory.com. And we're basically just D Listers of History on everything. Except X, because I was just like, I can't.
JULIA: Fair enough.
AMANDA: I can't deal with this.
JULIA: Thank you so much, again, for joining us. And remember, listeners, next time your speech is published in a bunch of newspapers and maybe it was written by Ben Franklin, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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