Episode 354: Macbeth
/Macbeth is chock full of superstitions, prophecies, witches, and omens. So what better play to talk about for our Supernatural Shakespeare episodes? We talk about our own experiences backstage, the origin of the Weird Sisters, and so much more!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, blood, murder, child death, suicide, incest, death during birth, battles, beheading, and riots.
Housekeeping
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Mischa Stanton
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And we are two weird sisters hand in hand. So I am so excited, Julia. Perhaps top 10 episodes, I'm excited to record because we are talking today about Macbeth.
JULIA: Macbeth. Yes. So this is another one of our supernatural Shakespeare episodes. I think that's what I'm deciding to call these—
AMANDA: Very nice.
JULIA: —you know, three episodes, and I finally come up with the title, very, very classic.
AMANDA: We gotta make sure it fits. We got to make sure it settles.
JULIA: Of course, of course. But this one is, I think, near and dear to both of our hearts. And that is, of course, Macbeth. Now, Amanda, I mean, we could talk about our experience with the production of Macbeth, but do you want to talk about your experience and thoughts on the play?
AMANDA: Gosh. I just love this place so much. We talk often about the fact that we are in a very intense high school theater program, and this is the show that was, like, my senior thesis and yours too. Because you, in my recollection, were fully in charge of the props for the first time, including—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —a prodigious amount of fake blood.
JULIA: So much fake blood.
AMANDA: Yeah, it was a lot. And I stage-managed it, it felt like my project and it was so exciting. It was really my first experience of, like, engaging deeply with the text and watching it go from— you know, to the extent that a bunch of teenagers can, reading these words, figuring out what they meant, seeing performances that even looking back, I think were genuinely very good.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And a set and a show that I was really proud of. And so to this day, just being around it— you know, reading essentially the entire play every day for, like, two and a half months, I can quote pretty much the entirety of the play. I wrote about it.
JULIA: That's impressive.
AMANDA: Yeah, for a lot of my high school, like standardized testing exams, to the extent that once someone was like, "Did she have a copy of this with her?" And they're like, "No, she's just weird." And—
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: Yeah, that happened. And, no, I just—I love it, and I love reading it, and it's beautiful. And I will say, I have never once thought about the mythology or folklore of this play. So I am really excited to approach from a new angle.
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, I'm excited to, but of course, I think to get us started, we do need to go through the plot of Macbeth which, obviously, is something that you and I are very familiar with. And I feel like a lot of people are as well. But this one I feel like might not be taught in schools as much as like, "Oh, we were forced to read Romeo and Juliet in ninth grade. And that is all I know about Shakespeare." You know?
AMANDA: Yeah. Or even Hamlet, which, you know, is fine.
JULIA: It's fine.
AMANDA: Hamlet is a whiny little baby, but it's okay.
JULIA: We might do Hamlet, eventually. There's ghosts.
AMANDA: It's okay.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But Macbeth, better. Macbeth has insane marriage, and three witches, and a lot of very dramatic monologues about blood. And it just— it's everything I wanted as a teen and everything I like as an adult.
JULIA: Yes, that's true. It's still one of my favorites, like easily my favorite tragedy/history. I forget which one it kind of falls under, but I like it both.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: So our play begins with pretty much the reason why we're doing this episode in the first place, which is a trio of witches, the Weird Sisters who appear in the middle of a storm on the Scottish Moor and agree that they are going to meet so that they confront our "hero," I guess, Macbeth, before disappearing again. It's a very short scene.
AMANDA: He's kind of like our heroic object. A lot of heroism is placed on and around him by women, but he's just kind of there. He just can, I think, is my thesis statement for this.
JULIA: But he's Kenough, so—
AMANDA: He's Kenough.
JULIA: So we then cut to the Scottish King, Duncan, who receives news that his two generals Macbeth and his buddy Banquo have managed to defeat two separate invading armies and he is stoked about that and is planning to reward them for their service. Very quick scene again, like this one I feel like has a bunch of the shortest scenes I've ever read in Shakespeare, because the plot keeps moving. You know, there's a lot of like long monologues, but like other than that, like those scenes go by fast.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's really a play where, like, a lot happens until we slow down and watch two people make a decision together, or watch one person sort of, like, amble around, lost in their own thoughts, which is—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —something I like. Like, I love a play where it's like a fixed set and people are just like in it for two and a half hours fighting.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I'm Irish, I love it. I love that kind of drama. You know, all the plays like I— I love them. And so Macbeth has a lot of these moments, but you're totally right. There's a lot of just like shit happening and you're like, "What's happening?" And then it doesn't matter, really, because you get to people, like, discussing ambition.
JULIA: Yes. So we then— speaking of people discussing ambition, we then actually come across Macbeth and Banquo heading towards Duncan's camp, and this is when they encounter the witches as they are crossing the Moor. Now the witches immediately hit Macbeth with a prophecy that he is going to be made Thane, which is like Scottish nobility, and eventually would become King of Scotland. They then turn to Banquo, and they're like, "Nah, you're not going to be king, but your children will be king, so that's cool, I guess."
AMANDA: But also, what the hell?
JULIA: You're like, "Excuse me?"
AMANDA: Like, how is that supposed to happen?
JULIA: Yeah. So these witches ended up disappearing pretty much as quickly as they appeared. And then Macbeth and Banquo are both like, "What the fuck was that?"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: What was that? What was with those ladies and those Moors, and whatnot?
AMANDA: Very weird. Also, I love that they just, like— they amble on and just like ask each other que— they're just like chatting.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And so they walk out in this first scene and the first witch is like, " Where hast thou been, sister?" And the second one goes, "Killing swine."
JULIA: Killing swine.
AMANDA: Like— okay. And obviously, teens and adults all over the world have eaten up these roles. Very good.
JULIA: There's nothing like watching three teenage girls play this in particular, because you're like, "Ooh, I'm a little spooky." And then a lot of times— like sometimes people will do them up, so they're very like crone-like. And then other times, they're just like, "These are hot ladies that are dressed like they'd been in the woods for a while. Get used to it."
AMANDA: Yeah. And I think two of our three witches were named Amanda, none of which was me. There were five Amandas in our high school theater program of 120 people. It's a high proportion.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. So these witches disappear, Banquo and Macbeth are like, "What the fuck? That was a weird experience. It's probably all bullshit, though. Anyway, let's get back to camp."
AMANDA: Bye.
JULIA: But before they can leave, two of Duncan's men appear and they're like, "Hey, Macbeth, congrats on that battle. You're Thane of Cawdor now."
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: "Thanks. A lot has happening just to meet here."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. And at this, Macbeth goes, "Now, hold up a minute, because those witches said that this would happen. Now, does that mean I'm actually going to become king? Hmm. Interesting."
AMANDA: One part of this happened, so perhaps the second will.
JULIA: At this point, he is like, "Okay. Well, let's wait and see, I guess. Better write to my wife, let her know what's going on with all this prophecy and the fact that I am now the Thane and also that the king is going to come stay at our castle."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Big deal, get it ready. Thank you.
JULIA: Now speaking of Macbeth's wife, Lady Macbeth, she is way more decisive about this witches prophecies than her husband is.
AMANDA: Yeah. She's giving real like, can't have a job as a woman in the 1950s, so she, like, creates like a neighborhood association that sort of rival the city government and, like, the scale and scope of its power.
JULIA: I put in my notes, I said, "She was girl-bossing before anyone dreamed of girl-bossing."
AMANDA: It's very true, and in all senses of the word, in the toxicity and in the self-congratulation.
JULIA: Yes. And goddamn it, Amanda, she wants to be queen, which means her husband needs to be the king. And she straight up tells him once he gets home that he has got to murder Duncan in order to make that happen. Even if it's in their very household, and they're going to break all the rules of, like, the guest-host relationship.
AMANDA: Yeah. Macbeth is like, 'But hospitality"— and she's like, "Fuck that!"
JULIA: "Fuck that! You can be king."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. Macbeth is, as you mentioned, pretty reluctant about all of this at first, but because Lady Macbeth is a stone-cold bitch, she manages to persuade him to do with the murder. He really does.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So they decide that they are going to get Duncan's two guards just blackout drunk, and then they can blame them for the murder in the morning since they won't be able to remember what happened, and they'll be pretty much defenseless, right?
AMANDA: Not the worst idea in the world.
JULIA: Not the worst idea. I mean, you also have to figure out how someone holds their liquor, because not everyone, when they drink a lot, blacks out. So it's really an interesting dilemma, but they seem to think it's going to work. Lady Macbeth is very self-congratulatory about this whole plan that she has come up with.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So Macbeth goes through with the stabbing of Duncan while he's sleeping, even though he is plagued by these visions of bloody, floating daggers, and there's some weird like heavy potential witchcraft in the air that's happening, that Macbeth, like, can sense. And he's like, "Oh, is this just dreams and illusions, or is this real magic that is doing this? Who can say really? But seems like I gotta do a murder."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: That's the classic, "Is this a dagger I see before me?" Well, I'm for people who are familiar with Macbeth.
AMANDA: Yeah. And if you're into like psychological horror of any kind, I think having that, like, genre and trope in your mind as you watch, or read, or see Macbeth is really rewarding because there is a lot of like, "Can I trust my own mind here?" Which is incredibly potent as a— a genre of like thriller or horror.
JULIA: That is my favorite/scariest type of horror to me. The idea of, like, I'm seeing these things and no one else is seeing them. Am I the one that is wrong, or are these people just not aware?
AMANDA: Yeah, same.
JULIA: It's rough. So Macbeth does the murder. When he finishes doing the murder, Lady Macbeth realizes that he forgot to leave the daggers in the room so that they can frame those guards for Duncan's murder. So she goes and puts them back herself, while Macbeth kind of is, like, very nervous about everything that's going on. Now that the murder has been done, he hears this mysterious knocking that he can't explain, which actually turns out to be the arrival of another Thane named Macduff, will be important later. Wink.
AMANDA: Wink.
JULIA: So Macduff arrives and has a scene with a porter, who is super drunk, typically performed that way at least, and he compares himself to being a porter at the gates of hell, which is a great monologue. If you're doing this in a high school production, pick just the broest dude possible to play the porter and just make sure he memorizes all his lines, because that's all he really does for the play.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's pretty incredible and really provide some comic relief in the, like, truest sense of the word, because we've just seen, like, 25 very tense minutes of, like, plotting, engaging in, and then cleaning up a murderer. And then the porter is like, "Oh, wow. Big door.' Great.
JULIA: Big door, I had to piss because I drank too much.
AMANDA: Yup, yup, yup.
JULIA: Drinking makes you have to piss, and you're like, "Cool, guy. Thank you."
AMANDA: It sure does. That's so relatable.
JULIA: So relatable. So Macbeth, after the porter does his whole scene, enters and is like, "What are you doing here, Macduff? And Macduff is like, "Well, the king asked to see me, is— is he awake yet?" Like it's early, early morning at this point, which— I like that the assumption is like, "Yeah, the king rises with the dawn typically, so here I am. Macduff ready to meet with the king."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Macbeth in, like, a really kind of, like, mono-syllabic, really short for Shakespeare at least is like, "No, he's not up. Do you want to go see him, though?" Knowing that the king is dead at this point, but is basically like, "All right. Macduff is going to be my witness to the "crime" that happened where the guards killed the king.
AMANDA: Yeah. And as Macduff is in there, like discovering the body, his, you know, little manservant is chatting with Macbeth and Macbeth just says, "It was a rough night." That line always get laughs.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. "It was a rough night, huh, buddy?" Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So Macduff now is acting witness to this murder and Macbeth, offstage "in a rage" kills the two guards that he has now implicated.
AMANDA: Convenient.
JULIA: Super convenient. That was all part of the plan. Lady Macbeth laid it all out. He's good to go, right? So while all this is happening, Duncan's two sons, Malcolm and Donalbain, which is one of my favorite names. Donalbain is so good.
AMANDA: Yeah, I really like Fleance who comes up later, too. Very good.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. So they arrive at the castle, and upon hearing the news of their father's death, they both flee the country, concerns that whoever killed their father will probably want to kill them as well, which basically leaves Macbeth a clear path to become king. Now, I don't know how the lineage is here in the Scottish time period that we're in. I'm not exactly sure it works.
AMANDA: Yeah, who knows?
JULIA: But, yeah, it's just like, "Oh, well, Macbeth, the newest Thane, he gets to be king now."
AMANDA: I mean, I get it and that he's like a recent war hero, you know?
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: As in, like, several days ago and the king's last act before he was murdered was elevating him. In that sense, I'm like, "Oh, okay, I— like, I— I do see how he's kind of identified as a successor."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But I think part of the reason why— I know we talked about this in our episode on The Tempest, they're like, "Ah, Scotland, up there. Who knows what they do? Always murdering." Like, I think that's kind of the, like, English view on the Scots at this moment.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, I think that's fair. So Macbeth now going to become king, Macduff is rightfully pretty suspicious about all these deaths that keep happening, but does not voice his suspicions while Macbeth is able to basically take over.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: However, Macbeth being king does not solve all of his problems, surprise, surprise.
AMANDA: Yeah. I think it just kind of exacerbates all the stuff that was there before, but let me tell you, Lady Macbeth loving it.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: She has, like, a crown. She's got nice garments. She's in here, like, holding a banquet. She is so excited to be queen.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. She is extremely excited to be queen, but Macbeth gets to thinking, Amanda. And he goes, "Well, if the two first prophecies from the Weird Sisters came true, what about Banquo?"
AMANDA: Weird. If I'm king, and that did happen, and me and Lady Macbeth are ruling, how is that that some other men's kids are going to become king?
JULIA: Yeah. So the witches told Banquo, "You're not going to become king, but your heirs will be able to eventually seize the throne." So, Macbeth, he does what I guess any power-hungry person would do, he turns on his friend. He hires a bunch of murderers to kill Banquo and his heir, as you mentioned before, Fleance.
AMANDA: Fleance.
JULIA: Fly, Fleance, fly.
AMANDA: I know. Oh, my God.
JULIA: So they ended up ambushing Banquo on his way to this royal feast that Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are throwing. But Fleance manages to escape, even though Banquo was killed. This pisses Macbeth off even more, because Banquo wasn't even the real threat.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: It is as long as his son was alive, Fleance could overthrow him at any moment.
AMANDA: It was baby Fleance.
JULIA: Baby Fleance could do anything at any time and Macbeth is not satisfied with that ending.
AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, I guess Banquo could desire more kids, but it gives you a good 15-20 years to, like, enjoy being a king, which honestly, I think more than that is asking for too much.
JULIA: It's also super easy to kill a baby.
AMANDA: You know, that's true.
JULIA: I'm not wrong. So Macbeth tries to basically keep up appearances after this kind of both works and doesn't work his plan. So he is throwing this royal feast, but absolutely fails to, again, keep up appearances because at this royal feast, the ghost of Banquo appears before Macbeth even though no one else can see it.
AMANDA: Yup. Which, Julia, you expertly attended in our production with a lot of talcum powder.
JULIA: A lot of talcum powder, and also I put a blood packet in the actor who was playing Banquo's mouth, so when he bit down, it would drip out of his mouth.
AMANDA: It was very good. Very good.
JULIA: It was one of my favorites, one of my favorites. So it seems to most of the Scottish nobility in attendance at this royal banquet, watching Macbeth basically have a mental breakdown, it's not the most reassuring thing that your new king could be doing, right?
AMANDA: No. You show up at their house, you expect them to be like, "Hey, this is me. This is us. This is the plan. Welcome. This is your onboarding meeting, got to fill out your W-2." No, no, no. We have lots of increasingly frantic falling apart of the mood as Lady Macbeth is like, "What the actual fuck is wrong with you?"
JULIA: Yeah. She is like trying so hard to take the reins and regain control of the situation, but it becomes very clear that the rest of the nobility and even Macbeth's subjects are not super pleased with the new management.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: They are not having a good time under Macbeth's rule. Which is fair, he is out there fully murdering people or sending people to murder his friends and the other nobility.
AMANDA: Yeah. And he's engaging with a ghost that nobody else can see and saying ridiculous things that Lady Macbeth is really trying to be like, "Oh, yes, he's always like this. God, he won't— but— oh, God. It's classic. So funny."
JULIA: It's probably not good that he's always like this, Lady Macbeth.
AMANDA: Yeah, no. No.
JULIA: So Macbeth frightened by all of these ghosts, and magic, and prophecies that have been happening to him, chooses to seek out the witches. Now in their cavern, we finally see the witches again, it's been a minute. You know, a lot has happened between the last time we saw them. They are circling a cauldron chanting a spell with one of their most classic lines, the double, double toil, and trouble.
AMANDA: Fire burn, and cauldron bubble, baby.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. So depending on which version you're reading, or the production that you're seeing, Hecate actually appears as the goddess of these witches and complements them on their work thus far. A lot of productions end up cutting this because it's just a lot of, like, extra fluff, and Hecate doesn't really have a big influence on the plot the way that the regular witches do. So if you see that, shout-out, because normally she gets cut.
AMANDA: Yeah. I haven't seen her depicted on stage yet, but I would be really curious, too. So, hopefully, I get to see that in the future.
JULIA: Yes. Well, she disappears pretty quickly when one of the witches announces, "By the pricking of my thumb. Something wicked this way comes." Another classic witch line.
AMANDA: Hmm. Chills, chills every time.
JULIA: And that signals the arrival of Macbeth. And Macbeth asks the witches, well, demands really, not super asks but demands.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: To reveal how true their prophecies about him were. And the witches being, you know, witches, they summon these horrible apparitions for him, each which addresses his biggest fears about his rule. So the first is a floating head that warns him to beware Macduff, which he's like, "Well, yeah, dude. Like, obviously, I've always suspected Macduff. He's always suspected me. Like, I know to take heed of him. It's fine."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Then there's a bloody child that tells him, "None of woman born shall harm Macbeth."
AMANDA: And this is something that folks may know, because it is a joke kind of referenced in pop culture— or— or not really a joke, which is like a reference that people make, but continue.
JULIA: So he takes that as a pretty good deal because he's like, "Well, everyone is born of a woman." You assume, Macbeth.
AMANDA: Duh. Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: You assume. And then another child appears to him, this time crowned and holding a tree, and tells Macbeth that he will be safe until Birnam Wood moves to Dunsinane Hill. Which again, Macbeth is like, "Sick. That'll never happen. Forest don't move."
AMANDA: And this actually sort of calls back to a line from a couple scenes before when Lady Macbeth sort of dismisses the entire banquet after this has gone completely awry. And she's, like, left alone with Macbeth for a moment on the stage, and he says, "It will have blood, they say. Blood will have blood." Stones have been known to move and trees to speak. And so I always thought it was a really interesting crossing of like— later, he's like, "Okay. Well, like the entire forest can't, like, pick itself up and move to a new location, so I'm good." No. No. No, you're not.
JULIA: No, you aren't, and you said that yourself. You foreshadowed. This whole thing is foreshadowing.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And then finally, the last apparition that appears to him is eight crowned kings that parade past him. The last carrying a mirror, and Banquo's ghost appearing at the end of that line. Now, Amanda, do you know why the ghost is holding a mirror at the end?
AMANDA: Because Macbeth is going to be a dead king soon enough.
JULIA: So it's actually not for Macbeth. This is a, like, meta-textual thing.
AMANDA: Oh, really.
JULIA: Because Shakespeare wrote this play, basically, for King James at the time. And King James claimed to have his line descended from the line of Banquo.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And so holding the mirror up was supposed to reflect to the image of the king so that he could see himself there in the play.
AMANDA: Fascinating. Also, kind of sinister. I love it.
JULIA: I know. And we'll talk a little bit about King James because he does, like, have a lot of influence on how this play was written and why this play was written.
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah, dude.
JULIA: But we'll get to that later. We'll get to that later. So Macbeth seeing all of these visions, demands answers, but the witches just kind of disappear again. As one of the Scottish nobility arrives to tell Macbeth that Macduff has fled to England to join Duncan's oldest son, Malcolm.
AMANDA: Which, you know— we've all seen Game of Thrones at this point. It's really bad when the legitimate issue of the previous king kind of meets up with a— a well-placed challenger to the current holder of the throne.
JULIA: For sure. Now, Macbeth taking the warning of the First Division decides that he is going to do something about Macduff. And so he's like, "All right. I'm gonna send some men, seize Macduff's castle. And you know what? While we're at it, why don't we kill his wife and children?"
AMANDA: Yup, dark, bad, not good.
JULIA: No. And we're not supposed to like the decisions that Macbeth is making here.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, we're getting close to the reveal of Macbeth's fate. But before we reveal it, like the witches in their cavern, let's grab a refill on our brew.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, it's Julia, and welcome to the refill. I have some exciting stuff to tell you, and I will get to our usual thanking our patrons and my recommendations and our ads in just a bit, but we are so excited to tell you all about the Multi-Crew Drive. Now, Multitude exists because of support from listeners like you. And the best way that you can support Multitude is by joining the Multi-Crew, which is our membership program that lets you, our listeners, help to fund new work from Multitude and get exclusive perks. That's why from now until October 1st, we are running the Multi-Crew Drive. We are putting two weeks aside to highlight the ways that your support makes a difference to us at Multitude and how that support gets paid back to you, our community. So our goal is to add a hundred new and upgrading members to the Multi-Crew by October 1st. 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Remember sign up for an annual membership at multicrew.club and join the Multi-Crew. Now, of course, we are appreciative of everyone that supports us and that includes our patrons, like supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And of course our legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can help support us at Patreon by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast today. I also have a quick recommendation for you. It's not really a spooky season recommendation, but it is something that got me back into my reading after a little bit of a slump. And that is In the Lives of Puppets by TJ Klune. It's got a little bit of sci-fi, it's got found family, it's got a little bit like romance to it. I think you would like it. That is In the Lives of Puppets by TJ Klune. 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[theme]
JULIA: So we're back. And for this one, I originally wanted to do something inspired by the witches. But there are a lot of, like, just weird cocktails out there that kind of riff on the double, double toil, and trouble. So instead, I'm going to riff off a moment that we're going to talk about in just a moment, which is Lady Macbeth's blood-stained hands, whether imaginary or not.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So this is a cocktail that I have called the out damned spot.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Which is rye, grenadine, a little bit of lemon juice, and a tart cranberry juice, like sugar-free if you can find it, or from concentrate and then cut it accordingly. But it won't have you imagining your hands are blood-soaked, but it will leave you having a good time.
AMANDA: Julia, I love this so much. It reminds me of one of my very favorite cocktails, the Blood and Sand.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Maybe I just need to start drinking more cocktails with the word blood in the name.
JULIA: I think that's honestly a great decision for choosing your cocktails. It's a great, like, criteria for choosing your cocktails.
AMANDA: Yeah, like wine. I— I go with the cool bottle and it's— you know what? It's never— never steered me wrong.
JULIA: Sometimes that's the best way to do it, man.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Sometimes that's it. So we left off with Macbeth murdering the Macduff family, which is sort of the beginning of his end here, because rather than, you know, leaving things be, he now has given Macduff motivation to get revenge against him.
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: That was— it was a bad choice. Honestly, it was a bad choice. You didn't have to kill his family. You could have just, like, you know, denounced him, seized his castle, stripped him of his title and his lands. You know, that would have been fine. But no, you did a murder.
AMANDA: Damn, Julia, that would have been enough.
JULIA: Yeah. So Macduff works with Prince Malcolm who has amassed a following in England, and is going to help challenge Macbeth for the throne. At this point, many of the other Scottish royalty have turned against Macbeth who, you know, is just being like a tyrant. He's unafraid of murdering women and children. Anyone's at risk if they piss off Macbeth.
AMANDA: Yeah, just to be clear, he is not at all disguising the fact that he ordered people to murder Macduff and his entire family.
JULIA: Oh, no, it's real red wedding situation stuff here.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: For sure. And at this point, while everyone is kind of turning against them, Lady Macbeth's sanity is starting to deteriorate as well. She is seen in some scenes sleepwalking, attempting to wash away imagined blood from her hands, which is a really amazing scene.
AMANDA: It's an incredible scene. I'm sure it's a monologue that people have heard before or again seen referenced. And, Julia, here, I have a little game for you.
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: What I am going to do is go ahead and read off some things that people sometimes use to clean blood, and I want you to tell me if it's a good idea or not.
JULIA: Uh-oh. I feel like I do know a lot of these, but let's see, I'm excited.
AMANDA: All right, Julia. Let's begin with something people probably reach for when it comes to nasty stains.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Bleach. Is bleach a good idea to use on blood?
JULIA: I feel like bleach might not be, because I think it doesn't lift the blood and it just ends up making a stain around where the blood was.
AMANDA: That's right. It can absolutely discolor fabric and so it's generally not the thing you reach for first when cleaning blood. Very good, very good.
JULIA: Maybe if it's like white clothing, sure. But bleach for any other color, no good, no good.
AMANDA: Yeah. If it's like white sheets or towels or something, you want to do that, not a huge deal, but it's very, very corrosive.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Okay, next. Spit, Julia. Is spit a good idea to put on blood?
JULIA: I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Maybe it's like— it's like alchemy where like attracts like or whatever. So bodily fluid cancels out bodily fluid.
AMANDA: Julia, spit is an excellent thing to use to remove blood stains.
JULIA: Woah!
AMANDA: In fact, whenever I shave my legs, like it just— there's definitely blood all the time.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And so that is my favorite thing to use if I smear a little blood by accident on, yeah, a towel or sheet, it really takes it off, like almost immediately. I don't know. I feel a little bit like a vampire if I'm just, like, putting my tongue up against, like, a towel that I stained and then I— like, I suck at it and then the blood is away.
JULIA: I was picturing the mom whose child got dirt on their face method, which is like the licking of the thumb and then rubbing it. But if you want to put your tongue directly on there, who am I to stop you?
AMANDA: You know, we're here in the Macbeth episode, I— I gotta be honest with you. All right. Julia, how about Oxiclean? Is Oxiclean good to use on blood?
JULIA: Well, if that guy from those commercials taught me anything, yes, indeed.
AMANDA: You're exactly right. They have powder, liquid, gel, all kinds of forms. And pre-treating the stain with OxiClean either just like, you know, rubbing it in there or dissolve it in a bathtub, put the thing in there.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Very, very helpful.
JULIA: Not sponcon?
AMANDA: Not sponcon, no. God, I wish.
JULIA: Oxiclean, get at us.
AMANDA: All right, Julia. We got two more here. Is it a good idea at all to put meat tenderizer on a bloodstain?
JULIA: What kind of meat tenderizer? Like salt, or honey, or pineapple juice? All of which you can use to tenderize your meat, by the way.
AMANDA: Very true. I'm thinking about like a store-bought meat tenderizer, which is essentially—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —like a salt-based solution.
JULIA: I'm gonna say yeah, because it raises the— like it pulls the moisture out of stuff, so maybe that pulls the blood out of things.
AMANDA: You're exactly right. The only note here is to be careful on fabrics like nylon or silk—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —which could be abraded by the salt.
JULIA: The sensitive babies, of course, of course.
AMANDA: Exactly, exactly. The last one here, hydrogen peroxide. Is hydrogen peroxide helpful?
JULIA: That seems like a bad idea. I don't think so. I think it can lift, but I think much like bleach, it is going to cause problems with the fabric.
AMANDA: You're exactly right. Also, unlike our childhood, don't pour hydrogen peroxide on an open wound, that's not a good idea
JULIA: Uh-hmm. You watch your skin sizzle.
AMANDA: Yeah. Rarely is that helpful. Often, it is harmful. And don't just pour that over open wounds or in fact, bloodstains, because it will in fact futz with the color dyedness of the fabric.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Don't forget, if it's something you don't care about, then you can soak it like you would Oxiclean.
JULIA: I know too much about bloodstains, I'm realizing now.
AMANDA: Wee.
JULIA: Amanda gave me a big thumbs up for that, but— oh, no.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Okay. So we've left here with Lady Macbeth's sanity starting to deteriorate. She's doing her, "Out, damned spot. Out, I say," monologue. And when Macbeth arrives to his castle to face off against Macduff and Malcolm's armies, he is informed fairly quickly after seeing her perform that monologue that she has died by suicide.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Now, this sends Macbeth into a pretty deep despair, to be honest. It's very clear that he did, like, love his wife.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And he's very much mourning her death. But nonetheless, he is getting ready to face off against these approaching armies, kind of armed with the knowledge and feeling really confident because of the witches' prophecy, which he is sure will make him invincible.
AMANDA: Yeah. And there was a lot of discussion earlier between Macbeth and his wife, all about her being like, "No, no. Like, I— we need this, I want this. Like, you've got this. Together, we can do it." And so I think it's in some ways very touching, even though he's a contemptible character. I read this as him wanting to, like, finish the job for both of them.
JULIA: It feels very like— and I know a lot of people have a lot of conflicting feelings about certain characters from Game of Thrones and certain relationships. Minus the incest, it feels very Cersei and Jaime to me.
AMANDA: Yeah, of like, "Hey, both of us have given too much, gone too far, done too much to not get the shit done."
JULIA: Exactly. Yes. So Macbeth is feeling invincible, but ain't that just the way with hubris, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Macbeth is informed just then that as the prophecy said, "Malcolm's army has approached Dunsinane Hill, shielded with branches cut from Birnam Wood." Fulfilling the prophecy, that Birnam Wood would come to Dunsinane.
AMANDA: Yeah. And moments before we realize this, Macbeth is saying, "Bring me no
reports. Let them fly all. Like, go fuck yourself. No, I don't need you. Till Birnam Wood remove Dunsinane, I can't taint with fear." Who's the boy Malcolm? Was he not born of woman? Like, he is— he is so confident.
JULIA: So confident. Like just— like a— like a tech bro at a tech concert about to disrupt a thing that does not need disrupting.
AMANDA: A thousand percent.
JULIA: So despite this, meaning that he is no longer safe, Macbeth throws himself into the battle with abandon. Again, remembering, as you just pointed out, Amanda, according to the other prophecy that no man born of woman can harm him. However, in the heat of the battle, Macduff emerges and stands before Macbeth. Like they're very clearly, like, seeking each other out during this fight as well. And they fight and Macbeth is like, again, feeling extremely confident, so he reveals this prophecy to Macduff in an effort to either, like, throw him off, or just like, "This is why I'm going to beat you," kind of thing. However, Macduff at this moment tells Macbeth that he was not a woman born, but rather from his mother's womb untimely ripped.
AMANDA: So for anyone not following, because this is tenuous at best.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: He was born by early C-section, and not by a vaginal birth.
JULIA: And almost definitely his mother was killed during the process—
AMANDA: Almost certainly.
JULIA: —because that's what happened during that time.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, no. Not— not easy to recover from a C-section in this day and age, and certainly not 600 years ago.
JULIA: Absolutely not. So that means that the— according to prophesy, he can kill Macbeth.
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: So Macbeth is struck with fear, but does not surrender, and they continue their fight off-stage.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Because no one ever dies on stage in a Shakespeare play.
AMANDA: Yeah, that's very true.
JULIA: I mean, he's continuing the tradition of the kind of ancient Greeks and whatnot of being, like, the action is going to take place off stage, because we don't want to show a death on stage. That would be ridiculous.
AMANDA: And frankly, Julia, something I think modern television studios should think about, because we don't have to see the— the effects for every single thing. Those artists should be unionized, and get paid fair wages.
JULIA: 100%.
AMANDA: And you should, you know, I— I think a from the sound effects, a little— a little sprinkling. I think seeing someone go off to meet their destiny, and then come back and see the emotional aftermath is something that strikes me as, like, unique and interesting, and impactful, and frickin' like Aeschylus plays, like ancient, ancient Greek texts now, and it's something that I think is incredible.
JULIA: I agree with you, Amanda, to a certain extent, but I can also hear and see the responses from fandom being like, "And then they just die off-screen?"
AMANDA: It's true. I mean, yeah, we talked about this before, but for me, like, the disbelief that someone who was there isn't anymore, is a very, like, resonant part of grief that I—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —you know, don't enjoy, but I— I really vibe with when it is depicted. So, anyway, both definitely have their merits. It is not ideal that our— our teenage co-workers in— in the drama school had just, like, branches from a Christmas tree in front of their faces.
JULIA: Hey, man, I tried my best.
AMANDA: You did the absolute best you could with essentially no budget. But, yeah, it makes me laugh, and I've seen this done interestingly with, like, lighting effects and, you know, different, like, you know, screens and, like, moving branch imagery. So—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —this is a really interesting thing, and I think one of the larger scale battles that we see in Shakespeare.
JULIA: Yeah. Honestly, I think— like you just said, if I was going to redo it again in the modern times and whatnot, I think doing it in kind of, like, a screen in front and just seeing the shadows would be a really interesting way to do that. And then no one knows that they're just Christmas tree branches.
AMANDA: No, it's very true. We did have digital projectors back then or, you know, we had like, physical cut-out, like, tin silhouettes to, like, put in front of the stage light to, like, make a silhouette. So lots available to us now that we did not have 20 years ago.
JULIA: Yes, for sure. So let's wrap it up, because in the next scene, we see that Malcolm has captured the castle, and we see Macduff emerges with Macbeth's head, and proclaims that Malcolm is now the King of Scotland. That's also probably my proudest—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —prop mistress moment, which was I got to make a, like, mold of the guy playing Macbeth's head so that we could put a head on a pike that would look like Macbeth.
AMANDA: Yeah, you painted it, you put hair on it, looked really good.
JULIA: It looked pretty good. Honestly, I— I don't think I could make that again now without, like, having to, like, remember how to poorly text and stuff like that. But at the time, I was very proud of it. 2008, I was super proud.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: So Malcolm announces that all of his things will be made Earl's because now they're gonna adopt the English Gentry system, which I think is so funny and something that went right over my head when we did the production. I was like, "What— this is about making everyone British? What's up?"
AMANDA: Yeah, I was thinking too, like the geopolitics of the rightful Scottish heir and needing to gather support in England to then overtake Scotland and whoopsie doodle, we're all Earl's now. Probably— I'm sure you're gonna get into it. Probably, it felt great to the English king.
JULIA: Oh, yeah, I'm sure that is true. And also like the fact that Donalbain goes to Ireland and does not get support is, like, really kind of funny.
AMANDA: Incredibly funny.
JULIA: We're like, "All right. We get it, Shakespeare. You're a nationalist, because you had to be because you got all of your money from the royalty."
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: It makes sense, it's fun. Malcolm also curses Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, calling her his fiend-like Queen, and then calls for all of the men there to join him to see him crowned at Scone. And then the play ends.
AMANDA: Yeah, we've had some really lovely final lines with The Tempest and Midsummer Night's Dream in our previous supernatural Shakespeare series. This is perhaps the worst of all of Shakespeare where—
JULIA: It sucks. But I mean— and talking about again, the, like, geopolitical stuff of Shakespeare's time, the king probably loved that ending. He's like, "Yeah, we're gonna see my line get crowned. These are the people that I came from." So—
AMANDA: Yeah, but it just—it's— there's nothing to it. It's not elegant, it's weird. And when we did the table read for this play, the teenager playing this part, like anyone in America, reads the word scone and says scone. And he's like, "Wait, the— the last word of the place is scone?" And the teacher is like, "No, no. It's Scone, because it's supposed to rhyme with each one." Oh, boy. It's tough, it's tough.
JULIA: I also want to shout-out that particular dude who, the first performance like in front of an audience, went to see us crowned at Scone, Scone. Shit! And then blacked out.
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: Oh. God. So good.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: So let's— let's talk about this play, because in a lot of ways this, without specifically pulling from mythology, is the most Greek tragedy-ish of Shakespeare's plays in my opinion.
AMANDA: Which is a kind of mythology for anyone who writes drama.
JULIA: Absolutely. So it feels straight out of a Greek myth with dealing with stuff like hubris and prophecy, kind of a la Oedipus, which of course, we already did a full Oedipus episode already. So go check that out if you want to hear a little bit more about hubris and prophecy. But prophecy plays such a big role in Macbeth with the prophecy that the witches hand to him as well as Banquo. And it starts off the entire plot of the show. Like, if this was just like Macbeth coming back from that battle, and then the witches don't step in and give the prophecy, nothing would happen, probably.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: So it's interesting, because it can be argued that the witches almost tempt Macbeth into fulfilling his own prophecy, sort of tempting him first with that more minor portent, that he's going to be made the Thane of Cawdor. And then when that happens, it makes him more certain of their second prophecy that he will become king is more likely to happen, right? But it's also really interesting because while we see almost all of the prophecies told by the witches coming true during the play, which the only one we don't see is Banquo's line of kings. There is some question as to whether or not the prophecies were like meant to be, or if Macbeth and Lady Macbeth's own thirst for power made themselves fulfill it. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Like, does Macbeth will himself into becoming king, or is it actually faded? Does Macbeth's confidence, that he cannot be harmed, put him in direct conflict with Macduff, or were they always meant to meet on the battlefield?
AMANDA: Yeah. It's a really good question, it's really interesting. It's why adaptations of this play are still being put up hundreds of times every year all over the world. And in my opinion, it is entirely brought on themselves, where if Macbeth and Lady Macbeth didn't have this, like, outside almost justification and excuse for selfish treasonous behavior, maybe they wouldn't have done it. It, to me, is a really interesting case of like, what would happen that— sort of adage of like, "What would happen if you have the confidence that you couldn't fail?" And this is like, "Oh, no, like you are— you are clearly so, like, yearning for someone to say, "No, no, baby. Like you're meant for more." That the moment somebody gives you the excuse to cover the guidance, you're like, "Okay. Amazing. Let's kill the king. Hell yeah, dude!" Like you're not happy with thane, you gotta be king, versus the lesson that I take from a lot of folklore and that we talked about in urban legends episodes all the time of like don't tempt fate.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Don't do it. Be okay with what you have and, you know, I can unpack all these, you know, adages and therapy. But, like, the basic thing being if they didn't take steps to accelerate that prophecy to take it into their own hands, or to use it as a— a text they can point to and say, "No, no, we deserve this. The fate said it. They'd be fine."
JULIA: I think that's a 100% true. And I think that, like I said, it's very Greek prophecy, hubris, like I see a lot of Oedipus in this as well, where it's like if you had just kind of went about your life without knowing this prophecy, would all of this have happened? And the answer is no, because you take actions based on knowing that prophecy—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —which puts you on the course to fulfill that prophecy.
AMANDA: Yeah. This is a play where we get to see women have agency, one woman only, because there's only one other—
JULIA: One woman.
AMANDA: —one other woman in the play and she gets murdered, and is only a mom.
JULIA: Yup.
AMANDA: So not ideal. But Lady Macbeth is such an interesting character, and she's pretty villainous, but we love to see her say to her husband like, "No, I know better, and you have to listen to me." There are so many lines in her role that stick with me now. One of them is Macbeth is like, "Well, like, what if we fail?" And then she goes, "We fail? Screw your courage to the sticking place and we'll not fail." Like, she is kind of alternating between, like, encouraging and coaching him and being like, "You need to do this. I can't, you must." And just in the text too, and like watching the performance. I think we're really lucky that the people who play these roles in our production were— were really, really good. Both have become like actual actors in adulthood. But the language overlaps a lot, and it's a really, like, intimate thing in Shakespeare, or in any kind of structured verse where, like, a character instead of having, like, the entire line, they'll have a few words, and the next person picks up with the rest of those words.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: So if you ever see it on a page, it's like, "Okay, there's like the left justified, first half of the line, and the second half of the line is the other person's next." And together, it makes one complete iambic pentameter. But they will have— sometimes like they'll switch twice in the same line, where it's like one word, two words, one word, two words, and it's collaborative. And it's really moving to see and I think in a— like on the page even, and I think in performance, seeing the two of them, there's just a lot there to explore, and it's not my bag. I can only read this in text and imagine it, but seeing it put out there, and invoked, and embodied is really fascinating, because there is like contempt, and awe, and love, and frustration, and encouragement. They are using each other as a unit, but also, Macbeth is clearly very moved by her death. She's clearly very moved by, like, the humanity of the thing that they did, and it's just— it's fascinating.
JULIA: The way that you described it, I see it in my head as like choreographed sparring.
AMANDA: Exactly, right.
JULIA: The idea of, like, going back and forth, exchanging blows, but at the same time, it's very collaborative. That's how Lady Macbeth and Macbeth feel in my mind.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or, again, not an art form I know a lot about, but in like ballet when the characters, you know, like, kind of throw each other, like, away and then back, and then away and then back, like, it's that kind of thing.
JULIA: Yes. And I think that it's really interesting. We'll transition away from Macbeth and Lady Macbeth to the characters that maybe help put them on the path of prophecy. And that is the most obviously magical part of the play, which is the Weird Sisters, the three witches. Now, we're calling them weird, which is like, sure, like, we can take that as kind of the literal modern usage of the word now, but the word weird actually has an etymology that derives from the Anglo-Saxon word wired—
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: —which means either fate or doom.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Which they definitely have both of those for Macbeth.
AMANDA: Damn, I had no idea.
JULIA: Yeah. And so it's really interesting too, because they seem very reminiscent of, like the fates, the Moirai from Greek Mythology, which we talked about before.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: As well as a group that we haven't really talked about, which is the Norse Norns, Who the Norns as you might imagine— since we're talking in collaboration with the fates, were in charge of shaping human destinies, and they would draw water from the well of destiny in the roots of Yggdrasil.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: Yeah. So besides that sort of classical mythological origins, scholars also believed that they might have been somewhat inspired by the Witch of Endor from the Bible, where like Saul consults a witch to summon the spirit of Samuel to get his advice on how to defeat the Philistines. The spirit, rather than giving him advice, gives him a prophecy of doom.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And they also, Amanda, this is where we talk a little bit more about King James, might have had origins from the Demonology of King James, which was a book that the King wrote about the historical relationship between divination and black magic.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: So King James had a lot of opinions about witches, to the point where he also passed the anti-witchcraft laws during his reign, which prior to the writing of Macbeth, actually— most likely influenced Shakespeare's writing at the time. So almost as soon as they are introduced to the kind of witches here are providing sort of, like, a warped morality. They are at odds with the laws of the real world. And as they say in the play, fair is foul and foul is fair, which kind of embodies their whole vibe of like, "We are not under your laws. We make our own laws. We are fate. We are doom. We are destiny." Which I think is so fucking cool, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And speaking of language, because you— you spoke so beautifully about Macbeth and Lady Macbeth's language in the play, Shakespeare uses his writing in the way that they speak to set them apart from the other characters. So most of the other characters are speaking in blank verse iambic pentameter, but Shakespeare writes the witches to speak in rhyming couplets, so like double, double toil and trouble, fire burn and cauldron bubble, et cetera.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: In a way, it's like almost a little disarming, like they feel like little, like, fucked up nursery rhymes.
AMANDA: Yes, I do.
JULIA: They're like— a little like caricatures of witches, which almost makes them seem as though they're not as dangerous as they actually are. But the interesting question that, like, I want to— like, if I was teaching this in a class or something like that, is like while they're dangerous, my question is like, are they truly evil? And that kind of comes back to whether or not you believe that the witches simply gave Macbeth his prophecies without any intention, or if they desire to have him commit that violence that he did by giving it to him, and ultimately, bringing down his own downfall.
AMANDA: Nah, I think they are playful, and find it very funny how far humans will go for minute elevations in social standing. That's my read, I think it's very fun. I think you're exactly right. They do a lot of circling, a lot of nursery rhymes, they love talking about animals, and they're amazing. And I think they are so funny, and this has absolutely no bearing on their lives, and they deal with matters much bigger than this. And they give someone— in my mind, they, like, hand him the resources he needs to fuck up his own life, and I think they find that incredibly funny.
JULIA: And I love that for him. Now, before we finish this episode, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about the curse of Macbeth, which like we've talked about pretty substantially in past, like, theater superstition episodes, but I found something new when I was researching this one. Basically, for people who aren't aware, there's a lot of superstition around saying the name Macbeth while in a theater, which is why a lot of actors and theatre people refer to it as the Scottish Play. Supposedly, or at least according to the Royal Shakespeare Company on their website, the reason for the curse had to do with Shakespeare's portrayal of the witches and the way that he researched them. Apparently, Shakespeare did a lot of research on witches before writing this play. And there are claims that the spells and ingredients and incantations in the play are supposedly real, which pissed off a coven of witches who objected to Shakespeare using their real magic in the play, so curse it.
AMANDA: Blessed.
JULIA: There's a bunch of legends around, like, how the actor playing Lady Macbeth suddenly passed away in, like, the first production, like Shakespeare's first production, and that Shakespeare himself had to fill in the part, which I think is kind of great. And then there are other stories that say, like, during that original run, like during Shakespeare's time that the actor playing Duncan was accidentally killed because the stage daggers were swapped out with real daggers, which I think is probably a fake story, given the fact that Duncan typically dies off- stage, so—
AMANDA: But it's still fun.
JULIA: Yes. There's the Astra police riot, which again, we talked a lot about in the—
AMANDA: Yes, indeed.
JULIA: —in the theater superstitions one, but that was a, like, bunch of people who thought one actor was better than another, got into a riot, and somewhere between 22 and 31 people were killed with 120 people injured.
AMANDA: And that Opera House is going to be a Wegmans very soon, so you know—
JULIA: Woo.
AMANDA: —life goes on.
JULIA: But, of course, there are ways of "breaking the curse" if someone says the name— each theater, I think, has a bit of a different one, but the most common one is exiting the theater, spinning around three times, spitting, cursing, and then knocking on the door to be allowed entrance back.
AMANDA: Which I think any witch would approve of.
JULIA: I think so. Three times is, you know, the number of witches. It's a big magic number, and we appreciate it.
AMANDA: Thrice to nine and thrice to mine, and thrice again to make up nine.
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: You know how we do.
JULIA: So both onstage and off, Macbeth has one of the darker supernatural origins and stories of Shakespeare's plays, much so compared to the lighter ones that we've touched on so far. And so, maybe next time, we touch on a supernatural Shakespeare episode, maybe we'll chat about ghosts and apparitions of Hamlet.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: Or maybe we won't. Who can say? Maybe you imagined me saying that. Oh.
AMANDA: That sounds amazing, Julia. I can't wait.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, next time, you are listening to a production of Shakespeare and you see a dagger floating before you, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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