Episode 355: Mexican Vampires (with Isabel Cañas)
/Author Isabel Cañas is back to talk about her newest book, Vampires of El Norte! We chat about Mexican vampires and boogeymen, historical romance, and drawing inspiration from her family’s history.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of illness, death, forced marriage, religious persecution, colonialism, and pregnancy.
Guest
Isabel Cañas is a Mexican-American speculative fiction writer. After having lived in Mexico, Scotland, Egypt, Turkey, and New York City, among other places, she has settled in the Pacific Northwest. She holds a doctorate in Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations and writes fiction inspired by her research and her heritage. She is the author of The Hacienda and Vampires of El Norte.
Housekeeping
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
AMANDA: Hey, everybody, Amanda here, CEO of Multitude, the podcast collective that this incredible show is a part of. And before we get started today, I want to tell you about something new that we are doing here at Multitude happening right now. It's the Multi-Crew Drive. Now, Multitude exists because of the support of listeners like you. And the very best way of supporting Multitude is to join the Multi-Crew, a membership program that lets you, our listeners, help fund new work from Multitude and get exclusive perks. So between now and October 1st, we are running the Multi-Crew Drive. We will be highlighting the ways your support makes a difference and show off all the ways that we pay it back to you, our community. We are running a couple of very cool specials that are not going to happen any other time this year. If you join the Multi-Crew by October 1st, you can get a brand new, “This Mug Supports Conversational Podcasts That Bring People Together mug” very, very cool. And if you are an annual member at any level, on October 1st, you will get your names inscribed forever on the, “We Put 2023 on Our Back Plaque, which we will look at every day in the Multitude office. Some very cool stuff, check it all out at multicrew.club. To learn more about the Multi-Crew Drive, stick around for the mid-roll in this episode, where your host will tell you all of the best ways that you can join or visit multicrew.club to learn more about the drive. Alright, let's get the show started.
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AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this episode we are joined again by our good friend, Isabel Cañas. Isabel, welcome back to the show.
ISABEL: I am so happy to be back. I'm really— I've been really looking forward to this.
JULIA: I feel like a lot has changed in your life since the last time we talked certainly, but most important to our podcast here. Hey, you have a new book.
ISABEL: I do have a new book, it's really exciting. It came out on August 15th and it's called Vampires of El Norte.
JULIA: And let me tell you really, really good. It's been one of my summer reads, I've been really enjoying just like sitting on the hammock, reading in the backyard. It's been fantastic, I was lucky to get a— an early copy, no bragging here, but a little bit bragging here.
AMANDA: Brag, Julia, brag. That's why we're podcasters.
JULIA: Brag, brag, brag. But it is so fantastic. I have been recommending it to people as a vampire romance where the vampires aren't the romanceable option. But can you tell people a little bit about the book itself?
ISABEL: I love that pitch. No notes. Perfect. So the book is about two childhood sweethearts, Nena and Nestor, who grew up on a ranch in South Texas, which is where my family has hailed from for generations. And they're separated by a tragedy when they're 13 years old. And Nestor thinks that Nena is dead. Nena thinks that she's been abandoned. And when they're thrown together on the road to war 9 years later, because the Mexican-American War kicks off right around the time the book begins, high jinks ensue. What are the high jinks in question? We have threats to the rancho in which they live, the first of which is human and the second of which decidedly is not. It's billed as like a supernatural Western set during the 1840s in South Texas and it has Vaquero, sort of Mexican cowboys, and vampires.
JULIA: And I mean like a juicy romance. Amanda's been on a romance kick for a very long time. Amanda occasionally gets me back on my romance kick, and this one definitely, I was like, "I should be reading more romance novels when I can't sleep."
ISABEL: This is the child of my own romance kick. Like at the end of my PhD, I was like, "I need sustenance."
AMANDA: Yes.
ISABEL: "I need happiness injected into my veins." What do I turn to? I turn to romance. And I— I never read romance in my 20s. It was just a thing my mom did, it was the thing my older sister did, and it was never like my thing. But I don't know, I made friends with some people who had books coming out, and I picked them up. and I was like, "Holy shit. I have been missing out on joy."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. That's how I felt when I picked up my first romance novel like as a full-ass adult, and I was like—
ISABEL: Yeah.
JULIA: "—Oh, this is good. Why were people making fun of this?"
ISABEL: Yeah.
JULIA: Like, why is this not like— I know it's not "serious literature" quote-unquote.
ISABEL: The patriarchy.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Exactly. The patriarchy was like, "This is too delicious and feeds your soul, and is also like a huge industry making millions. Let's make it seem like a dirty secret."
ISABEL: Exactly, exactly. And it's like no, I believe in letting people have nice things and romance is a nice thing. And so like on a very skeletal level, this is a romance. Like it clashes with a lot of genres, I threw out the word Western. It's got vampires, it's historical, it's got elements of horror, but the bones, the DNA, capital R romance.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: Complete with the happily ever after, which is not it generally do. I was like— as I was writing it, and my husband read it, I was like, "Honey, is— is this schmaltzy? Like is this like— is the ending like too much?" And he was like, "No, I love it. Change nothing." And of course—
AMANDA: Yay!
ISABEL: —things change, because that is the process of writing a book, but God, I love romance.
JULIA: And I mean, I— I think it's really a beautiful romance that is also highlighted by vampires. And I am so curious, I know you've kind of mentioned in the author's note at the end of the book, but you're doing romance, you're doing historical set in the Mexican-American War. And then you're like, "But what if we threw vampires in there?" So what was kind of the inspiration to be like, but also vampires?
ISABEL: So when I sold this book, I sold it as kind of, like, a tag along, little sister to The Hacienda in a two-book deal. And I didn't really have much to go off of at that point. I kind of pitched, loosely pitched a vampire novel to my publisher, and they were like, "Hell yes." And I was like, "Wait, really?" Amazing. Career goal, like absolutely achieved at that point. But I had an idea that drew on a particular part of Mexican folklore. In Central Mexico, there are legends about what are called bloodsucking witches, Tlahuelpuchis.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: And they are super fascinating. And I, like, did a huge ass-like research, deep dive on this particular kind of vampire. And then realized that they really didn't fit into what I was trying to do with the romance, what I was trying to do with the setting. The setting then changed. So originally, the book was going to be set elsewhere in Mexico, but there was this character who swaggered onto the scene called Nestor, who was fully fleshed out from the minute he walked in, and had this family background of being from South Texas, which is my mom's family background. And my editor was like, "That— that—that bit is good. Like, chase that bit." And I was like, "Oh. Duh." Like— and so the— the setting of the book moved. And so with the setting of the book having moved, I felt like I had to leave those Tlahuelpuchis behind. I think they deserve their own book, they're fascinating. So I was kind of left with, "Great, I have to build up my vampires from the ground again," because I did in fact, sell a vampire novel.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: So that part has to stay.
ISABEL: That part definitely had to stay. A lot of things changed, but that part was there. And I felt— because my editor was, like, throwing out ideas when we were like brainstorming. She's a really good like— like brainstorming back and forth kind of partner and she was like, "So, is Nena going to turn into a vampire? Is it going to be that kind of vampire book?" And I was like, "You know what? Just in my gut, I knew that was not what I wanted." There were elements of European vampire tradition that I could play with, and having done my PhD in Ottoman studies, I am familiar with more Eastern European, and even Turkish versions of vampirism. So I have like some folklore floating around in my head, my research on the Tlahuelopuchis, and then of course, like, one thing I love, and I have no shame about this. It's like horror podcasts about like monsters in the night. Like, "Oh, I had this UFO experience." Like, "Oh, The Jersey Devil. Oh, the Chupacabra." Like, I love that shit. And so there was something—
AMANDA: Us, too.
ISABEL: Yes. And so I was like— I— I knew I was among friends here, from the very first. But there was something— what I really wanted a cryptid. You know, it was just like that was the bug that I was chasing. I wanted a monster, I wanted a bit of a creature feature. I wanted something scary that lurks in the dark. And I did not want it to be infectious, so to speak.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: Like the classic Dracula, "I bite you. You become vampire.”
AMANDA: Oh, Isabel, is something about the recent past, making that less of a topic of intrigue for your private life?
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: I don't know.
JULIA: Who can say?
ISABEL: Who can say? But I feel like I had all this, like, research swirling around in my brain and the things that kind of, like, floated up to the top were scary monsters. Did I watch too much Stranger Things before flushing these guys out? Maybe, maybe not. Are they a little Demogorgony? Maybe, maybe not. But, like, I also thought of legends of El Cuco or El Cucuy, who's a bit of an urban legend in Latin American folklore. I was doing a research deep dive on that particular boogeyman and came up with some sick imagery that I was playing with. And one thing I think about having finished my PhD and still being haunted by it and plagued by it, because it has reprogrammed my brain, is like I studied orally transmitted popular literature. So, you know, stories that people told each other for funsies back in the 14th century. And one thing I thought about when I was researching these stories was, "What were the references that the audience members had? What other things were they hearing or reading that informed their understanding of the piece of literature that I was writing about?" And so when I thought about my characters, Nena and Nestor, encountering this monster, one thing I thought about was, "What would they call it?"
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: Because in the author's note, I write about how a contemporary of “theirs” air quotes because they're fictional, the man was not. Cheno Cortina, who was a Tejano politician, outlaw, and a rancher in the 1840s and '50s in South Texas. He called invading Anglos, vampires.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: He said flocks of vampires came and scattered themselves in the settlements. Like—
JULIA: That's amazing. Amazing.
ISABEL: I got chills. Chills when I read that line. I was like, "There we go."
AMANDA: I know. Extracting value, like there's so much there, that is such a good reference.
ISABEL: Exactly. And so in my research, like doing a deep dive into South Texas folklore, I didn't find the word vampire. I didn't find any particularly eye-catching bloodsucker stories, but this man used the phrase vampire. And I was like, "Oh." So at some point that will occur to the characters because that was floating around in their milieu, so to speak, in the South Texas rancher culture, but what else might they call this monster? And it occurred to me, El Cuco, the boogeyman.
JULIA: Which you feature in the story, too, like that's one of the stories that the two main characters hear from the abuela and, like, are fascinated by. Like very much the first couple of chapters are driven by the stories that they grew up with, and the kind of, like, folklore that drove their lives and their imaginations forward. And that's how they—
ISABEL: Yeah.
JULIA: —get into, let's say, a sticky situation to begin in the book.
ISABEL: Exactly. They do get into a sticky situation because of folklore. I— one thing that is so fun about, you know, playing with made-up char— like my made-up imaginary friends all day is thinking about what would populate their imaginations. How do they think about their world?
JULIA: I think it's really great. Can you give us a little, for people who haven't picked up the book yet, a little bit of background on El Cuco?
ISABEL: Right. El Cuco is a boogeyman with many, many faces. I think actually researching him was tricky, because he's very slippery. And it seems like in every story, he's a little bit different. The word El Cuco, for example, comes from— I think derived from, like, the skull.
AMANDA & JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: So when we talk about pre-Christian, Iberian folklore, so in Spain and in Portugal, there was this idea of El Cuco that was connected to like skulls and boogeymen in the dark. So something to do with skulls, something lurking in the dark, but like I said, very slippery, very difficult to put your finger on. Like, what exactly is this idea? And so that was part of what drew me to El Cuco to begin with, because it felt like a piece of folklore were like the cannon, so to speak, is not fixed. It felt like something where I could play with it and meld it to the purposes of my story. So, like, figures like La Llorona for example, have a cannon. Is she reinterpreted in different ways? Absolutely. But there's like a set cannon for, like, you know—
JULIA: What her motivation is?
ISABEL: Her motivations, what she's looking for. Whereas El Cuco, it's like part of what makes him terrifying is you kind of don't really know. There's like— is he hunting for— for kids in the dark? Probably. Does he appear with a skull under his arm? Like, you know, a severed head and tucked under his arm in, like, a black cloak? In my book, he does.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: Yeah. So there's like— there are lots of like urban legends about El Cuco or El Cucuy. I'm sure there have been like— I think there have been like really bad horror movies made.
JULIA: Of course.
ISABEL: For sure. But, yeah, he's— he's a figure of many, many faces. So it's difficult to talk about him, actually, because it's like, what are we actually talking about? A story, and when I think about the purpose of folklore, and certainly the purposes of the people telling the stories on the rancho in my book, it's like the purpose of the story is to keep kids close to home at night.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Yup.
ISABEL: You know, this is something that is out in the dark, and it will get you if you don't come home at the correct time.
JULIA: Right.
ISABEL: Which I think that's— one of my personal pet theories is that it's absolutely the purpose of La Llorona, because when you think about like, "Oh, if this particular ghost is out, you know, hunting riverbanks and also out when it's pouring rain, you know, I think about the places where my family come from and where these stories come from, it's like, well, flash floods are a very real risk.
JULIA: Yeah.
ISABEL: So there's clear utility in the story. Also, it scares the shit out of me as an adult.
JULIA: Yup, yup. No, that's fair. I really loved the way that you utilized folktales in the book, in particular. Again, like I— I could talk about just, like, those first three chapters where, like, kind of the inciting incident of the whole novel sort of takes place, but I don't want to give away too many spoilers.
ISABEL: Yeah.
JULIA: But I also really love the way that you used folk medicine as a thing that kind of motivates Nena moving forward, like, as an adult after this thing has happened to her.
ISABEL: Yeah.
JULIA: And I was really touched by her desire to kind of find this role in the house that isn't just like, "You can marry me off for political reasons."
ISABEL: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Was there a particular, like, figure that you were drawing from when talking about Nena and also her relationship with Abuela, and being a, like, healer woman for the rancho? Like—
ISABEL: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there was no one particular person I was thinking about. One thing I thought about was my aunt's sharing stories of— actually, I take it back, there is one person. My great-grandmother—
JULIA: Uh-huh.
ISABEL: —who passed away when I was probably about 3 or 4, was from Nuevo Leon in Northern Mexico and came to Texas, South Texas, I think, in her late teens, early 20s. And one thing that my aunts remember when they were growing up was— you know, she was— my great grandmother was raised Southern Baptist, so you know, pretty Bible-thumping—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: —and God-fearing, very—I would say probably not a harsh woman, but a very strong-willed woman, which is not something that is admired in patriarchal more traditional Mexican culture.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: But I find it— there's a lot to admire there and her— for sure.
JULIA: Of course.
ISABEL: And she definitely is a bit of a— I guess you could— now, looking at my work and looking at the projects I have planned, absolutely an inspiration. But one thing my aunts remember are, like, going over to people's houses, and, like, having their granny there, and, like, being around like curanderismo or curanderas or hearing like so and so is sick, so we're going over there, and, like, my aunt once fainted, and like other relatives, like, brought out eggs to, like—
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: —pass over her body, you know? There was just kind of— it's so interesting to me, because my grandmother and then my great-grandmother, her mother, were so Southern Baptist. Like, this religion is, like, you know—
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: —very much a part of daily life for my mother growing up, and it was a huge influence on the dynamics of their household. And yet, it coexisted quite well with this belief in folk medicine—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: —and practices. And, you know, my grandmother is the kind of person who was raised by my great-grandmother, is the kind of person who'd, like, talk about my dad who's Catholic and be like, "Well, Catholics, there's idolatry going on now with your— with your— with your icons and shit." And I'm like, "Well, valid." But also, you know, that's the kind of mindset she has, and yet her mother, my great-grandmother was also, like, down with curanderismo. So that's something that I think you can see in The Hacienda, my first novel, is coexistence of indigenous folk practice and Catholicism.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: It's something that— the syncretic nature of that relationship is something that's really interesting to me. In a historical setting, one thing I wanted to play with, with Nena, was her taking agency for herself.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: Because like me, she was raised in a very patriarchal household, and in a historical setting where she didn't have a whole ton of options in terms of taking the reins of the path of her own life, and being in control. And I think when I look at the kind of women I write— but in The Hacienda, in this novel, and in future projects, I'm like, "There's— gee, Isabel, do you have self-control issues?" I'm very preoccupied with, like, female agency in periods when it is not a given. That honestly includes modern period now that I think about it.
JULIA: Yeah.
ISABEL: Especially agency over our own bodies. But when it comes to this particular period, I asked my grandmother, the one who was raised super Southern Baptist, you know, "Tell me all the spooky stories that you heard growing up. Like, did you know anything about El Cuco? Like, tell me about that." And she was like, "Yeah. Yeah, there was stories about El Cuco, of course. There was La Llorona." And my grandpa was like, "Yeah, yeah. La Llorona."
JULIA: We're like, "We all know it, you know?"
AMANDA: "We all know it. We all know it. It's fine."
ISABEL: "We all know it. It's whatever." But she said— she said, "You know what my dad would say to really scare us?" And I was like, "Ooh, what? Tell me." And she said, "Your mother will hear about this."
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. That was good.
ISABEL: It was the parental relation— the relationship with the parents that was, like, the big boogeyman, and it just like drove home for me and reminded me like, "Yeah, I would trade being Mexican for, like, nothing in the world because of, like, the folklore, the imagery, like it's just"— I love it, I love it. But one thing that is part and parcel with that is the network, the family relationships that we have. And, you know, what is a part of that? Machismo, Patriarchy, religion. It's tricky. And so writing Nena to me felt like her living in fear of her parents, of what they might do, of what they might think. For some readers, it might be very frustrating, and I think for other readers, it might hit close to the bone, because it felt to me very real—
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
ISABEL: —when I was writing it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: Yeah. And so her like seeking curanderismo was like her way out, so to speak.
JULIA: Yes. And no, I definitely got that vibe, the minute you said, "Your mother will hear about this. I'm like, "Oh, that explains so much about the relationship and the book like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —that's— it's just there.
ISABEL: 100%. 100%. That's the background, like that's the paradigm we're working with Nena. Like parents, are they more scary than El Cuco? Turn in at 9 to find out, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, they have way more influence over my daily life and did when I was growing up. Isabel, that reminds me of your— your kind of early observation too, that— you know, folklore has practical implications, and the stories that we make room, for the stories we transmit, the stories that we tell each other, affect us— because they affect us, you know what I mean? Like, there— there are the spiritual realities, and there are the— the sort of self-realization and, like, purpose, like, all of those things are so true. And there is the daily life of, like—
ISABEL: Yeah.
AMANDA: —keeping your children safe, keeping your body safe, like navigating, just live reality. And so to me, it makes, like, no mental sense, but a lot of body sense that people could find it—
ISABEL: Yes.
AMANDA: —completely understandable to sort of have these, like, larger kind of spiritual or folkloric organizing principles of their, like, metaphysical world, and be like, "Well, yeah, someone failed to take out the egg." Like, I don't have to ask why if it works, you know?
ISABEL: Yeah. And then susto was a part of that as well. Susto is—
JULIA: Uh-hmm. That was my next question. Perfect, Isabel.
ISABEL: Amazing. Great minds, Julia. Well, susto is something that I kind of reinterpret in the novel. Susto in, I guess the real world, you could say, is the idea that if you have experienced trauma, like serious trauma, assault of any kind, or even, I guess, a light-hearted trauma, such as being awoken before you're ready. Like when you're in a deep sleep and being shaken awake. It's the idea that your spirit leaves your body, and so you are without your soul.
AMANDA: Hmm.
ISABEL: And so that can manifest in— for example, depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder. One book that I read for this project is called Woman Who Glows in the Dark, and it's by a Curandera named Elena Avila. And she writes a lot about this kind of susto in her work as a Curandera, and her patients and, like, what the paradigm behind that is. It's fascinating. I— I really loved reading that book. It was— I'm not a woo person, but like, I think part of being Mexican is being a little woo. You know what? Yeah, I take it back. Maybe I am a little woo. Actually, I'm quite woo. There's no pulling that apart. I am woo. Hurray. This has been an insightful conversation already. But one thing we talked about in speculative fiction writing workshops is— when it comes to idea generation, is taking a metaphor and making it real. So like you actualize the metaphor, or you take an image or an analogy, or a turn of phrase, and you're like, "Well, let's make it real". And so I took the idea of susto and I actualize it a little bit, you know? I don't want to give too much away, but like Nena, for example, experiences an attack from something that creeps around in the dark at night, and what does she experience? Like it's a traumatic experience, yes. Losing Nestor, him leaving after that happens, she experiences susto, because it's a traumatic event. And so I made susto both speculative and also an element of her romance with Nestor, because there's healing to be done between the two of them. And even though she's a Curandera who thinks about healing all the time, this is something she doesn't really want to do from the outset. They say very hurtful things to each other throughout the book. They definitely have their— their rocky path to travel.
JULIA: And there's a really great moment like in the book where Abuela is talking about susto and the experience that Nena went through and said like, "Your soul still needs healing." And like I think other people around you can kind of sense that." And like Nena takes it—
ISABEL: Hmm.
JULIA: —really personally, and I was like, "I think I also would, but like, yeah, we all need to heal after something like traumatic happens to us." And the loss that Nena experienced, even though it wasn't like a death or anything, is still— you know, it's still a loss and she has to heal in that way.
AMANDA: And one of the parts of reading romance that I most love is that every single romance book, or short story, or piece of fiction depends on the protagonist like they're wrestling with something that won't allow them to move forward. And maybe that involves moving back, maybe that involves like wanting better for yourself. Leaving a bad situation, embracing a new one, embracing risk, just articulating a desire. It's always bigger than the romantic love, you know? Or the romantic love is a product, or part of a process, or just like a happy side effect to deciding like, "No. Like, fuck this job, fuck this person. Like, I want this for myself. Like I— I need this for me from someone. I need to give this thing up." Or recognize within myself. Something I'm doing or neglecting is holding me back. Their stories of self-actualization or flawed messy people taking a flawed messy step. And it's almost like the love story is the cover for allowing us to explore within ourselves. You know, what it would take or what might be there for us that, you know, we need to move through, or somebody else coming in. Whether it's a relative, a potential loved one, a stranger, and saying like, "Hey, like, is that really— really okay here? Because it seems like it's not."
ISABEL: Isn't that revolutionary?
AMANDA: It is.
ISABEL: Like when you think about it? Yeah. No wonder the patriarchy doesn't want us to have nice things, because they're deeply, deeply healing.
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. That's true. Well, we can talk a little bit more about healing and vampire wounds and other stuff. But first, how about we take a quick break and grab a refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: Hey, it's Julia, and welcome to the refill. Before we get started, just a quick reminder, it is the Multi-Crew Drive, where we are highlighting the way that listeners like you support what we do at Multitude. From now until October 1st, we're trying to add 100 new and upgrading members to the Multi-Crew, which is our membership program that lets you help to fund new work from Multitude and get exclusive perks. And now is the best time to join the Multi-Crew, especially for an annual plan. Not only do you get exclusive perks and two months free when you sign up for the year, we're also giving out special benefits to anyone with an annual membership during the Multi-Crew Drive. So anyone who joins or upgrades by October 1st will get our brand new, "This Mug Supports Conversational Podcasts That Bring People Together mug.” And anyone on an annual plan will be immortalized on our, “We Put 2023 On Our Back Plaque.” Plus, we are also donating a portion of any new revenue we raise this month to the North Brooklyn Angels, which is a local organization that provides free meals in our neighborhood. We'll be making a donation for every new and upgrading member during the drive. So what are you waiting for? To join the Multi-Crew, head to multicrew.club to sign up for your annual membership before October 1st, 2023 and receive amazing perks plus our exclusive mug and be immortalized on our plaque. There's only a little time left, so remember, sign up for an annual membership at multicrew.club and join the Multi-Crew. And of course, this is also a great time to thank the people who support us here on Spirits, like our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. And of course our legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I just put out a tarot reading for the autumn equinox to, like, get a vibe to see what the new season has in store for us. And you can get that too, by signing up at patreon.com/spiritspodcast today. I also have a recommendation for you and I have been on a little bit of a pirate kick lately. So this new novel that I picked up recently has really been doing it for me. And this is Deep as the Sky, Red as the Sea by Rita Chang-Eppig. It's really cool. It's a super interesting story, a historical fictional novel about the life of the Chinese pirate queen Ching Chi. I really am enjoying it. It's a really quick read, too. Like the action is keeping it moving forward and it's fairly short. So check that out, that is Deep as the Sky, Red as the Sea. And now our episode is sponsored by Ravensburger. Did you know that Ravensburger produces more than just the classic jigsaw puzzles and board games that we all know and love so well? Introducing CreArt by Ravensburger. The ultimate painting-by-numbers experience. You'll find everything you need to start your artistic journey today with Ravensburger's carefully curated painting-by-numbers kits. Whether you're a seasoned artist seeking a new challenge or a beginner eager to explore the world of painting, Ravensburger's skits cater to all skill levels and ages. 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I'm not a breakfast person throughout the week, but I do like to make a fun, little breakfast on weekends. But I also— the idea of like making my own pastries at home seems like such a hassle. But because Wildgrain has these amazing bake-from-frozen pastries that are ready in 25 minutes or less, I can, like, start my sleepy morning on a weekend easily and then have a delicious, delicious snack for breakfast, like the strawberry rhubarb pastries that they sent me recently. Or their wonderful croissants which come in every box. I love the croissants so, so much. The baking process is super easy. It's great for like— you know, put it in, ready to go, set a timer, and then all of a sudden you have some delicious pastries ready and available for you. I love it so incredibly much. And now, you can fully customize your Wildgrain box, so you can get any combination of breads, pastas, and pastries you like. If you want a box of all bread, all pasta, or all pastries, you can have that. 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JULIA: So, we are back from our break. And, Isabel, as always, we love to ask, hey, what have you been drinking lately? Whether that's cocktails, mocktails, lots of coffee to keep you awake given the fact that you're a new mom.
ISABEL: Yeah. Lots and lots of coffee, for sure.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: My husband's job give him some paternity leave which is—
JULIA: Excellent.
ISABEL: —dope, big fan. America, get with it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Yup.
ISABEL: And like me, he gets bored easily.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: He likes having capital P projects.
JULIA: Same.
ISABEL: And so that involves getting like a really nice espresso machine.
JULIA: Ooh.
ISABEL: A Breville espresso machine if that means anything to you—
JULIA: Amazing.
ISABEL: —and like making latte art and stuff. And I was like, "This is a great hobby. I encourage this."
AMANDA: Your hobby, great for me. Thank you.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
ISABEL: Excellent for me. Another hobby that like got abandoned a little quickly, because it came at the end of his paternity leave, but I like want to bring it back. Was making really nice margaritas.
AMANDA & JULIA: Ooh.
ISABEL: That was one thing that over the course of my pregnancy I craved so bad. Like in middle of winter, I was like, "I want to be sitting on a patio, in the sun with an iced tea Margarita with like a really spicy salt rim. And so he learned how to make one. And actually, when The Hacienda came out, we don't make it with tequila, this is what we do. When The Hacienda came out, my agent sent me a bottle of distilled pulque.
AMANDA & JULIA: Ooh.
ISABEL: So The Hacienda takes place on a pulque hacienda. So pulque is kind of like a sour beer. There were some enterprising book clubs who tracked them down and had it for their, like, book club discussions of The Hacienda, and I was like—
AMANDA: Oh, my God. So cool.
ISABEL: "—I'm sorry, I definitely oversold this." Isn't t that like amazing? It's like, you know, like Chaucer beer or like watery beer. It's like not— it's— it's not for everyone's palate. However, when you distill it, it becomes something that's more, if you'll excuse the pun, spiritually-related to tequila.
AMANDA: Ooh.
ISABEL: And so to celebrate the book coming out this week, he made me a really nice Margarita with Destilado de Pulque, so the distilled pulque and, like, a really, really spicy filled rim. And it just— it cooled my soul, it warmed my soul. It was delicious. It was amazing.
JULIA: Incredible. Oh, that sounds so good.
ISABEL: Yeah, distilled pulque, who knew?
JULIA: Who knew? Who knew?
AMANDA: That was amazing. There is a pulqueria in Downtown New York City. So I know last time that we hung out in person, it was to a margarita place. So this time, all I'm saying is we could definitely go to the pulqueria restaurant in Chinatown.
ISABEL: That sounds amazing.
JULIA: I would be into it. We're already making plans. Look at that.
ISABEL: Yes.
AMANDA: Beautiful. Well, as we mentioned, you and your husband became parents in the last little while here. I don't want to like docs your baby's date of birth. But how did that life-altering moment sort of intersect with the creation of this book? And, you know, how has it been to sort of like birth a baby and a book around the same time?
ISABEL: It's been wild. I found out I was pregnant last August when I was in the middle of revisions for this book. And writing one second book for a publisher has like a reputation, very honestly earned for being extremely difficult. Because, suddenly, when you're writing your first book, you're writing it in the dark. No one's looking at you. You're writing it for yourself, and then you sell it, and all of a sudden, people are out there reading it, and, like, you know, posting about it on Instagram, which is nice. But also as a Scorpio, I'm like, "Oh, my God, do not perceive me, please."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: And all of a sudden, there's like this— like, there was such a warm reception for The Hacienda, which was wonderful, because it was a book that I wrote after so much rejection, and I wrote it for me, first and foremost. So to know that it was connecting with readers, just blew my little mind. And all of a sudden, I found myself under the self-imposed pressure to kind of, like, make the magic happen again.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: And I was really afraid that lightning wouldn't strike twice. I was really afraid that I was going to disappoint with my next book. I think many writers experience this. I think the fear of the sophomore slump is extremely real, and I was also really worried, you know, I'll disappoint my publisher, but like, joke's on them, they bought another book from me, so that's nice.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: Hooray!
AMANDA: But it's so true like it's in context, there's going to be some comparison, no matter what that comparison looks like.
ISABEL: Exactly. Exactly. They're in conversation with one another, even though they're not— for listeners who aren't aware, they're not sequels of one another. They're— definitely— you can read them in any order you want. But they are the first steps of what I hope will be a very large body of work. And so, of course, they're in conversation with each other.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: But— so last August, I was rewriting this book for, like, the third time. I wrote this book in between chapters of my dissertation when I was, you know, first writing the first draft. And so it carried me— it has been a through line from one chapter of life right into another. It took me from my dissertation to now as a young parent, which is wild for a new parent. I'm not young, I am old, capital O. But one thing that was really difficult was revising it when I had very bad morning sickness.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: I'm a bit of a binge drafter, so I like to work for, like, six, seven hours a day when I'm revising, just blast right through it, because I find that sustaining flow and being in that headspace, and it helps with continuity, because I am the queen of continuity hiccups. It's like, "Well, she's wearing a pink dress on page 200 and all of a sudden, it's blue by page, you know, 213. What is going on here?" Like I'm the queen of that kind of, like, silly error, unless I'm like in it, and I'm like living in the book. I read an article with Kazuo Ishiguro who wrote Remains of the Day where when he was writing Remains of the Day, he and his wife called it The Crash where he would, like, write for, like, 10 hours a day, do nothing else, and was like losing his marbles during this time. And ended up with the Remains of the Day, which is like objectively not a bad book. So I was like, "Hmm, this sounds like a great idea." I could not do that. I could not do that. I suddenly went from being an extremely overachieving high-producing, high-output kind of person doing my dissertation, writing a book, like doing all this stuff at once to being forced to slow the fuck down in ways that I've never had to slow the fuck down before, which was very humbling. And I think I had to go slower. I did think more about things. I also had, like, maybe two hours a day in the evenings when I was not feeling horrific.
JULIA: The worst? Yeah.
ISABEL: The worst. So it was very humbling. And I think I'm— so I was really worried that I was not doing my best work. I did what I could. I did the best I could do at the time, and I'm so burnt out. And so I think this book— and hearing people respond to it, I have almost this, like, weird, detached response to it because I wrote it through a period of my life when I was physically feeling like garbage.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
ISABEL: And intellectually, was burning the candle at both ends and was trashed, so tired at the end of 2022. And people are reading it and really vibing with it. And it's almost a little difficult to celebrate—
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: —because it was so hard to write.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: But having it come out into the world is almost like, "Oh, yeah, I forgot about you." Because a lot has changed since the end of 2022. I moved from New York City to Seattle. I got a dog, which is amazing. Oh, yeah, and I got a baby, like—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: True, true.
ISABEL: —you know, it just kind of showed up. This little gremlin lives in my house, and he yells at me, and has a really cute gummy smiles, so yeah, it's been a wild ride.
JULIA: Yeah. I can't imagine that is quite a journey to bring two very different things into the world around the same time. Not that my validation is very important, but I'm proud of you for getting through that period of time. And—
ISABEL: Julia—
JULIA: Yeah.
ISABEL: —I appreciate it. I really do. I really do. Yeah, I'd recommend. Like the whole book while writing dissertation, maybe you can get by, but like book with morning sickness, dude, I recommend.
JULIA: Dissertation into book, into baby is a real journey—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —there. for sure.
ISABEL: I need it now. Yes.
AMANDA: A 100%.
JULIA: I also want to talk a little bit about the journey from The Hacienda to Vampires of El Norte in the sense that— and obviously, we've both read both books and they are fantastic. But the kind of Mexican Gothic to more of a historical romance novel with supernatural elements—
AMANDA: And cowboys.
JULIA: —how was that transition from kind of more very horror-focused to more, hey, two peppers on the spicy meter romance?
ISABEL: It is my career goal to get to five spicy peppers.
JULIA: Looking forward to it.
ISABEL: Like baby steps, baby steps.
AMANDA: I'm here for it, baby.
ISABEL: Yeah, my husband was just roasting me about that at dinner with our friends the other night. It's like, "We're— we're taking baby steps. We're taking baby steps."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. One pepper per book. True, true.
ISABEL: You know, this is actually not a bad metric, so wait for the next one. We'll see what happens.
AMANDA: Okay.
ISABEL: The— the transition kicked my ass, and it honestly makes me want to turn the car right around, and go back into more straightforward horror. Because I think with The Vampires of El Norte, it was a— the ideas that became the novel, all really appealed to me like on a base level. The romance, the vampires, the history, like all this was very important to me, and I was like really jazzed to get into it. And putting together the first draft was like— I was just racing to keep up with what was going on in my head. Like, it felt heavy. It felt exciting. I felt like writing a fanfiction like— just like—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: —the characters just babbling away in my head and I was racing to keep up with them. Putting it together into a coherent work was really difficult because I was juggling a lot of different strands, a lot of different genres. I was juggling, like, really strong— I'd say like— I was trying to push three different books into one.
AMANDA & JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: And revising was very difficult because I was trying to make everything flow together and really stick the landing. And one thing in particular that was different in terms of writing The Hacienda versus Vampires of El Norte was the historical elements. So as you said, Julia, like The Hacienda is way more horror-forward. It's almost like if I think about my books as like those little nesting Russian dolls.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: It's like on the outside, there's horror. Horror encapsulates everything, very gothic. Particular kind of horror encapsulates everything. Then there's like the history and then the little one right inside is the romance. Whereas with Vampires of El Norte, the order is somewhat reversed.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: It is reversed, it's not even somewhat. You've got the romance holding up the whole structure of the book, then there's the history, and then there's some horror. The history for The Hacienda serves almost a set dressing. Like, yeah, it's important. It informs character backstory, it informs societal mores. It informs the creation of each character's identity and the struggles that they go through. But at the end of the day, what's important, the haunted house, moving to the house.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: It's almost like it could be a play that takes place on a single stage.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: With, like, you know, brief little— "And now, we go to town."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: "And then we come back." But it's like— it all takes place in one spot.
AMANDA: It's very like embodied, which I think the best horror is, yeah.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: Exactly. Exactly. Vampires of El Norte has a road trip element, they go to war. They come back to the rancho. The rancho itself is bigger than the spaces we inhabit as readers on Hacienda San Isidro, and that kicked my ass. I was like, all of a sudden, how rude that I have to flush out multiple settings.
AMANDA: Describe where they're going, what they can see.
ISABEL: Oh, my God. Actually, like, one thing like in terms of describing the setting, like being out in the Chaparral was like— I texted my mom and my aunt, and was like, "I want this thunderstorm to happen in May. What would it feel like? What would it be like?" And getting like blocks of text in return.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: And like also so many comments like, "Why aren't there more mosquitoes? There should be more mosquitoes."
JULIA: Good point. Good point.
ISABEL: You need Chavalinas, you need chachalacas, you need like all sorts of different critters in the bush, and this kind of bird, and that kind of tree, and it was like, amazing.
AMANDA: Damn. That's amazing. I— I wonder too, if having the historical setting means that you can be like, "Um, actually, the mosquito population was lower back then."
ISABEL: I have no idea, but I do know that like Nena and Nestor got back to the ranch like very, very devoured by mosquitoes.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ISABEL: And that's thanks to my Aunt Rory.
JULIA: Yeah.
ISABEL: For sure. But also the fact that they cross paths with actual historical figures, like one person references Cheno Cortina, one person— like there are generals at the battle and I had to, like, look at maps, the battle to figure out, like, where would the equivalent of like the healers' tent. Like, where would all the nurses be? Where this auxiliary squadron of rancheros and vaqueros was a real thing. So which path would they have taken to get to the battlefield? Where on the battlefield were they stationed? When would they have been called in to, like, join the actual Mexican cavalry as the auxiliary squadron of cavalry? It was— it kicked my ass and I'm not doing it— I'm not doing it again, guys. I'm not.
JULIA: You say that now, but three books later.
ISABEL: You say that now—
JULIA: And listen, if they hadn't gone on their cool road trip then we wouldn't have gotten the— there's only one horse trope, which is like one of my favorites, so—
AMANDA: So good.
ISABEL: Yes. I mean, the thing is on the rancho, they have no private space, they have no private time. You know? They are completely surrounded by family. It's a very tight-knit community, and so when I was thinking about like— and somebody grew up very Catholic and, like, the parents are always watching—
JULIA: True.
ISABEL: —but also like a bajillion siblings and cousins, like all this people around. So, like, when are they gonna miss sneak off and get some private time? It's like, "What? Road trip, there we go."
AMANDA: And one of the reasons why people should not sleep on historical romances of which there are many, many periods and versions of it, it's not all like Regency England like touching gloved hands. Because private space used to be a lot harder to come by, and—
ISABEL: Yeah.
AMANDA: —there is a lot of amazing tension in finding moments or coded ways to kind of speak and spend time.
ISABEL: Oh, it's delicious. I live for that kind of tension.
AMANDA: I know. I know.
ISABEL: You know, like will they or will they? And are they gonna find time together? Like, oh, they brushed hands. Oh, the yearning looks. Somebody told me like it was a little critically like, "Oh, there's like— so much just like looking at each other dramatically and yearning." And I was like, "Do you hate nice things"
JULIA: That's the best part.
AMANDA: Like what do you want?
ISABEL: Yearning, yearning.
JULIA: That's the foreplay, come on.
AMANDA: Exactly.
ISABEL: Yes.
AMANDA: I wonder to how was the kind of experience of like horror as the outer shell versus romance as the outer shell when it comes to motivation? For me, one of the— the things I appreciate most about romance writers is that characters have to have really plausible motivations not to be together.
ISABEL: Yes.
AMANDA: Or circumstances that prevent them.
ISABEL: Yes.
AMANDA: And then really plausible inner journeys as to why their motivations and rationales change. And in horror, sometimes the motivation is not relevant at all, where it's like this is the monster they attack, and this is the setting, it's unfriendly. And the motivation is sort of survival. Does that resonate with you in any way?
ISABEL: This is the best question I've ever been asked. Like, I'm just like—
JULIA: Yes! You did it.
ISABEL: —promoting like Vampires of El Norte merry-go-round, like, Amanda, you win, you win.
AMANDA: Oh— oh, my God.
ISABEL: I— actually, this was huge. This was like a huge part of building the characters from the ground up. The fact that Vampires of El Norte is structurally a romance, forced me to come at Nena and Nestor as a more mature writer. It was more challenging to craft these characters. Because you're right, with a lot of horror, it's like what are the motivations like survive? Either the setting the monster or fill in the blank, what have you. So one thing I struggled with with early drafts of The Hacienda is I felt like Beatriz felt a little flat because her motivations were survived the house, which in some horror novels is enough. And it's a wild ride, and it's fantastic. But it's not the book I wanted to write. With Vampires of El Norte, it kicked my ass halfway into next Tuesday because I— I— you know, how dare this book forced me to come up with very real character motivations.
AMANDA: People who want things tedious.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Oh, so hard.
ISABEL: It is the worst, the worst, because, yeah, the vampires are important to the book. But what's more— the most important problem in the book is Nena and Nestor getting back together.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
ISABEL: Because you want them to. From page one, it's like, yeah, I didn't know it's gonna happen, the question is how?
JULIA: Yes.
ISABEL: Which is the beauty of any and every romance, no matter the setting, no matter the period.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: And so I actually had to make them— I think Nena especially, make her a bit of a jerk. She had to make mistakes. One thing I did— because I am broken, and encourageable, and like, seek— like learning, and I cannot stop, like, taking classes. One thing I did was— when I was super ill with morning sickness was I was doing a workshop called the Odyssey Writing Workshop, which, for genre writers, I highly recommend checking it out. It's incredible. One thing I thought about a lot while I was doing that workshop was making life hard for the characters.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: Because that's something I sometimes struggle to do. I think it's easy to do it in a book that's more horror-forward like The Hacienda, because it's like, yeah, the obstacles, the ghost is trying to get you. You know, like—
AMANDA: Yup.
ISABEL: —that's a very real obstacle that you have to overcome, and it can be difficult. But at the end of the day, it is outside of the character. It's like an external challenge. Whereas with a book that's more romance-focused, the internal challenges are more important. And they're like ickier to write, because it means writing characters who are deeply flawed. And I think that's difficult for a lot of people because— and it's certainly difficult for me, because it's like they're my babies, I want them to succeed, I want them to win. And the only way to make them win is to make them suffer first.
JULIA: Yup.
AMANDA: That's true.
ISABEL: So I think Nena is one of my more flawed characters, and she has a growth arc that I think was challenging for me to write, but I'm— I'm satisfied with it.
AMANDA: I loved it.
ISABEL: Thank you.
JULIA: Well, luckily, Nena despite being very difficult to write perhaps and, you know, a— a flawed character does not mean she's not interesting to read about. So people, hey, can pick up Vampires of El Norte wherever they pick up their books. I would recommend your local indie bookstore or bookshop.org.
AMANDA: Yes, please.
JULIA: And Isabel, where can people find other work that you're doing now, in the past, and the future?
ISABEL: Yeah. My website, isabelcanas.com, has a link to my newsletter which is— that's how I update everybody most reliably in the, you know, late-stage capitalist social media hellfire that is our lives.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: Hmm.
ISABEL: Everything's shifting, everything's changing. tinyletter.com/isabelcanas. I am still on Instagram because that seems to be like the— the ship that's still sailing—
AMANDA: Stable enough.
JULIA: —at this point in time.
ISABEL: Yeah, is at @isabelcanas_ and my website is isabelcanas.com also has my short stories. And I'm going to make a plug for one of my short stories, because it is set roughly in the world of Vampires of El Norte. It's a flash fiction piece, so very bite-sized. It's called There Are No Monsters on Rancho Buena Vista. And—
AMANDA: So good.
ISABEL: —it will— it was— thank you. It was selected to appear in the years' Best American Science Fiction and Fantasy 2023. It was picked by R.F. Kuang—
AMANDA: Big deal.
ISABEL: —so it'll be published in that volume in October of this year.
JULIA: Amazing.
ISABEL: That's what's coming out, so that's where you can find me on the internet. I love my short stories. Nobody reads them, that's cool. People read There Are No Monsters in Rancho Buena Vista and I'm thrilled.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Fantastic. Well, Isabel, thank you again so, so much. And remember, listeners, when you hear all of the critters and bugs go silent in the middle of the night, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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