Episode 266: Faithful Companions
/Didn’t you want a magical animal companion as a kid? We know we did! Amanda revisits her childhood favorite example, the daemons from the His Dark Materials series, while Julia brings her fave myth pups, horses, and birds.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of animal death, decapitation, death, and war.
Housekeeping
- MERCH! Get the Mothman Crewneck at spiritspodcast.com/merch!
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends The Big Fat Quiz of the Year.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out The Newest Olympian: Join Mike Schubert, a first-time PJO reader, on his quest to find out if Percy Jackson is the YA series we should’ve been reading all along! Search for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app or go to thenewestolympian.com to start listening!
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 266: Faithful Companions, just like you are to me, Julia.
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, that's so sweet. I love that. Thank you. Thank you, friend. So this week, I want to talk about something that we've talked about on the show before. But I've always liked the idea of the animal companion. Maybe because it was a big part of the fantasy novels that I read when I was younger, or the idea of just like walking through the woods one day and knowing that I would come across a talking wolf that would reveal my destiny and always be by my side. Wasn't that like every kid's dream at some point?
AMANDA: I think it was. And I think it was especially your dream, Julia. Because I had little siblings at home who needed me all the time and that sucked. You were an animal kid. you like bugs, you like lizards, with a sweet dog. You'd like to go in places and and thinking about wolves and and reading books about about horses and wolves and all the fun animals out there. So I think this is a particularly you thing, but it's also a universal love. So I'm really excited to dive into it.
JULIA: Yeah, just for the listeners sake. I had a reptile birthday party when I was a child where my dad's friend was a Biology teacher that rescued and rehabbed reptiles. And he just like brought a bunch of snakes to my house. And we like hung out with them.
AMANDA: Yeah, my image of Julia as a child is like slightly shorter than shoulder length pair, a little dirty, like holding a snake, like with some books next to her. And I'm just like, I want to be friends with that girl.
JULIA: That's the energy I tried to bring into my adulthood as well that I was that kind of child.
AMANDA: Yeah, you're manifesting lizard queer, quicker and quicker in your life.
JULIA: Thank you, I I do my best.
AMANDA: You're welcome.
JULIA: We can either talk about the kind of origins of the like familiar or animal companion and a couple examples from mythology or folklore. Or we can talk about some fantasy examples that you remember growing up as kid, Amanda, what would you prefer?
AMANDA: Yeah, why don't we start with that? Because my defining faithful companion animal companion is the demon. Which might not be exactly the kind of examples that you're talking about. Because they're not quite animals, like they are different to animals. But that to me was my defining book as a kid, The Golden Compass, the his dark material series. And I as a, as a very allergic, very indoor kid, loved the idea that I could have not just a pet, but a companion that was A, not biologically an animal, so I wouldn't be allergic to it. And B, just had all of these like wonderful parts of the mythos of something that understands you and complements you and is different to you, and is a different way of interfacing with the world and with other people. So we can dive into that if you want to start there.
JULIA: Please, I would love to.
AMANDA: Yeah, so Julia, I know that you are familiar, but for anybody who is not. So this is a book series by Philip Pullman. Now it is so much bigger than that. It's like a fan fiction trope there are daemon, alternate universe fanfics for all kinds of fandoms. But the basic idea here is a daemon is like the yin to your yang. So every person in this universe is born with a daemon, which is a little creature that takes the form of an animal and until you hit puberty, the animal can change. So when daemons fight, they can you know, like, with with one another. They can move from being like a butterfly, to a cat, to a dog, to a bird, and they're very fun to think about how you know two demons would fight. And they are canonically the opposite sex to you. Though I will say beyond the gender binary, there are a ton of very, very good fanfics of people, you know, exploring transmits and non-binary identities and daemons and how that would work out. So like a plus fandom as always coming through.
JULIA: I do also think that there are some canon examples of people with the same gender daemon which I think is really awesome.
AMANDA: Yes, there are and there are lots of ways that like your daemon, you know, is different to you. Like they kind of make up for deficiencies that you have, or they have opposite qualities to you. So the protagonist of the books Lyra Belacqua, is you know, really outspoken, she's brash, she likes to say what she wants to say and doesn't have a lot of patience for, you know, manners and, and restraint, and kind of bullshit. But her daemon pan is far more reserved, and he likes to think things through and he kind of like talks to her and they come up together with a good plan or something, she charges ahead, and he's like, oh, boy. It's not just the idea that like, you know, for me as a very kind of introverted quiet kid, a rule follower, the idea that my daemon would be able to, like, do the things that I dreamed of doing or push me to be a little bit, you know, more outside my comfort zone was really lovely. And sometimes I would think about, you know, what my daemon in the situation like, how, you know, how can I channel a little bit of that?
JULIA: Yeah, and I think that's really interesting because I think for a lot of fairy tale based familiars, they're usually portrayed as like mentors almost. So for example, in the story of Prince Bayaya, who shout out to both Andrea and Lata, who are great friends of the podcast, they pointed out that story to me, it's a Czech fairy tale. In that story, the speaking magical horse that is like ageless and incredible.
AMANDA: What a dream.
JULIA: Gives advice to this Prince, as he sets out on his path and she's like, hey, listen, you gotta listen to me, I will tell you what to do, and things will go well, so long as you listen and obey me. And I'm, like, obey a horse, what? But also, it makes a lot of sense, you know, because a lot of times these animals even if they aren't familiars, and we can talk about like helping animals a little bit later, like helpers. But they are usually there to guide you. So in your example, there, your daemon would absolutely not be that case. Because you're such a like, reserved person that they would probably be egging you on towards adventure, which I really like.
AMANDA: Totally. And the kind of idea of the daemons settling into a form was something I found really lovely, and a real kind of like reflection on childhood. Where, like, we try on lots of kinds of identities, and we're kind of figuring out who we are. And I think, you know, for me, the daemon might settle at like 35 or 40. Like, I feel like I still have some some road ahead of me of figuring out exactly who I am. But when a daemon settles, it's really like an event, right? It's, it's like a coming of age, and you kind of get to see not even what kind of person you'll be, but like what companion you need. And like the daemon really is there to make up for deficiencies or to help you know, be something that is more challenging for you to be on your own. And I really love that as opposed to, you know, something like more traditional, you know, what animal represents you, right? Like these quizzes or other examples and fantasy books, if like an animal that reflects your true personality, the daemon doesn't reflect your true personality. It reflects a element or a part of you or your calling like in the books, you know, different professions tend to have certain kinds of daemons.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But gets at the same thing, like the daemon does say something about you, but it's not just like an externalization of your inner emotion. It's a like negative copy of that, it's something a little bit different to you. So the idea that a you know, a reserved person has like a hawk, you know, or like some kind of like big fucking animal or a conniving person has a snake like you can tell a little bit about them. But it's not always that straightforward.
JULIA: Yeah, it's like a compliment almost.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: I love that. I really love that. I'm sure Philip Pullman has talked about kind of the inspiration for daemons. Do you know, what he drew from in order to kind of inspire the concept?
AMANDA: I do. So it was actually inspired by a Da Vinci painting of a Lady--
JULIA: Ohh..
AMANDA: --with an Ermine. He has talked about just like seeing the kind of like emotion and then looking like a real pair. There were also two other paintings by other artists and that inspired him. But that's the the one that the Wikipedia article shows. And I just like always think of her, when I think of daemons. Because her face and the daemons face like there are real parallels are looking in the same direction. That ermines little paws, like on her arm, and they just feel like a unit against the world. And there are also a ton of lore. And like a lot of the plot of the books revolves around the fact that canonically daemons can't go that far away from people. And so the whole book is like really about social norms. And I think particularly for kids, it's really useful to see a book like this book has a lot of kind of agendas, it is a real takedown of the Christian church. So there's a lot going on there. But one of them is, you know, you can look around and like in a society where you're used to seeing a daemon with every person. And even if the daemon is like a little lizard, or a mouse or something, the daemon will be on your shoulder or in your pocket poking out, like the daemons always visible. And so early on in the book, the sight of somebody without a daemon, like chills, the characters to the bone, and certain people in this case, witches are able to have longer separation when they're daemons to go further than regular humans are. And so just thinking about kind of, what do we look at? And what do we expect when we look at people? And yeah, that idea of like, some part of you is being separated or being torn out. And then the societal norms around who can touch daemons. No person should ever touch another person's daemon, but daemons can touch each other. And so this idea of like two people, like I always see people like walking their dogs out and about, and they might not interact always, but the dogs will. And it's a nicest way to kind of, you know, make a little friend or, you know, say to somebody, hello. The idea that like your daemon could kind of breach that and make a little bit of contact and say hello to somebody or flirt with somebody. And then you can kind of follow up almost like a tester was so enchanting to me. The idea that like you're not in this alone, and somebody can kind of you know, you can start it's like the conversational equivalent of like, complimenting somebody shoes, or their bag or their hat. It's just like a little kind of test pilot and see, see what happens from there.
JULIA: It's like why single men get dogs so that they can pick up women?
AMANDA: Yes, that's what [9:14] have taught me.
JULIA: I'm curious. Again, I'm not as familiar with the series. I've read the first book, I've seen the first season of the television show. Now it was always my understanding that daemons were basically like a external part of someone's soul.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Is that like a fair read on it?
AMANDA: Yes, it is also described as like the external manifestation of a person's inner self.
JULIA: Gotcha.
AMANDA: But there's a real dependency. So like, if your daemon is hurt, you feel physical pain and vice versa.
JULIA: So I think it's really interesting that that is the case, because I know for one an example that you brought is like seeing someone without a daemon like feels unnatural.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And I feel like that's kind of a thing that we would feel at least I'm thinking of like very Christian based fantasy or something to that effect where it is Christian based folklore or mythos. And so the idea of like seeing someone without a soul, like you would know that they just like feel off or they feel different or something like that.
AMANDA: Exactly, yeah. Or they've been through something. And so I think reading this book through the lens of like grief and trauma can also be really interesting. Because the idea is like, how are you like, you're sort of considered half a person or or a shell of a person.
JULIA: Right. And it also does speak towards personhood, because I know one of the plot points in the first book is one of the talking bear kings is like, I want to daemon because I'm also a person and you should respect me like I'm a person.
AMANDA: Exactly. And throughout the series, there are kind of explorations of you know, what physically, like metaphysically do daemons mean? What do they represent? Can other beings without daemons have kind of full personhood? Like a good sort of analog for it would be consciousness, or kind of like spark of like the animating spark of like a souler of life.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: You know, how can we sort of consider other beings and identify that they are, as you know, fully realized and real to each other as we are to us, daemons are only one version of that. And it's not a spoiler to say that this series intersects with our world to where, hey, let's look around, nobody has daemons. And so what does that mean? Why is that? And how do we kind of reconcile it? And seeing the people with daemons interact with or talk about people without demons? I always just really struck me to the core because I was like, I do want one. It does feel like something is missing a little bit always. And like that would be great.
JULIA: Yeah, just being able to like know that you're never alone is also a really kind of beautiful thing that I think just the animal companion or the faithful companion in general does highlight. You're like, yeah, no matter what I got you, bud.
AMANDA: Yeah. And in this series, you know, you are born with daemons. And when you die, your daemon dissolves and returns to the energy of the universe. But what are some ways that people acquire animal companions, faithful companions in folklore?
JULIA: That's a great question. So I think I would like to start by talking about familiars? Because I think that's the best place to start here. So a lot of what you were talking about actually does align with familiars, which is a concept that in general can be found in a lot of cultures. But when I talk about familiars, I'm specifically talking about the medieval witchcraft of European folklore and history. At least in terms of like the origin of familiars from that culture.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: It's around the time that it started appearing in literature or just in historical records as a whole. So basically, these were supernatural entities that were tied to witches or magic users, or just like cutting folk in general, which if you don't know what cutting folk are, they're basically like people who used folk magic to heal.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: So these would often take the form of an animal though there are some reports of sometimes they would take the form of like a humanoid figure or something that was like a smoky ghost like undefined form. The French philosopher actually Pierre [13:00] defined a familiar as, quote, "The double, the alter ego of an individual, it does not look like the individual concerned, even though it may have an independent life of its own, it remains closely linked to the individual, a familiar spirit can be an animal." So that's like, almost exactly how you defined the daemon earlier, which I think is really neat.
AMANDA: Yeah, because daemons can have their own conversations, you know, go their own places, communicate, and there isn't a psychic link to the person. You feel of a kind and and you know, you can feel each other's pain physically. But the daemon and the person still have to communicate and you can get in fights and you know, they're your your two independent beings.
JULIA: Yeah, I know that in the his dark material series. A lot of those animals can be like real wide variety, right? Like, you get--
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: --like, some guys got a jaguar, I think and like there's--
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: --monkeys and whatnot. But in the medieval period of familiars, the animal forms were often like just like small animals, so like cats, dogs, rats, birds, toads, rabbits, that kind of thing. But sometimes they could even be something like a small insect like a wasp or a butterfly.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: Or most often common farm animals, like pigs or horses or sheep.
AMANDA: Totally. Much easier to house a moth than it is a horse though. [14:12]
JULIA: Right. And like if your horse is just always following you around, that's a little weirder that like people aren't gonna notice them off as much.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But also like these are all animals that you would see in day to day life, so it's not all that weird. It's just a little weird.
AMANDA: No, it it makes sense. Yeah, just just a little bit. Yeah.
JULIA: Some witches are cunning folk would keep their familiars in baskets that were lined with sheep's wool. And while the familiar served those witches, they would need to feed them because they were like physical manifestations of energy or power.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And so often it would be like milk or bread, but sometimes it would be like meat or blood.
AMANDA: That's fine. That's you know, that's that's like fair wages for work. That's a hungry boy, you know, or a hungry girl, you never know, never know.
JULIA: In terms of these British magic users, these witches, he's cutting poke, there were various ways that one could either summon or meet their familiar. So in some tales, the familiar would just like up here in front of a witch while they went on with their lives. You're like, oh, there's a horse here that wasn't here before. I guess this is my familiar. Okay, can you just imagine that for a second? Were you just like--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --you're you're just like shelling some beans or something like that.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Or you're you're huskins some corn. And all of a sudden you look up and there's a horse and the horse staring at you. And you're like, you're not my horse, are you my horse?
AMANDA: You go over to your neighbor's, like anyone anyone lose a horse? But no, no just appeared.
JULIA: There's just a dog. And I don't know where this dog came from. I mean, there's plenty of stray dogs in town. But this one just like won't leave me alone.
AMANDA: Yeah, and the idea of the animal that like wants to stick around too, is is really interesting. Because I imagine a lot of life is interfacing with the natural world and needing to protect yourself or to take resources when all of you needed stuff and for the animal to just kind of stick around you. She was sort of charming, like I definitely have like a a little kid, you know, fairy tale within me that's thinking like, oh, they chose me. They want to spend time with me. Yeah!
JULIA: it's like those videos of when you see like dogs or cats--
AMANDA: Yeah!!!
JULIA: --shelters, and you just see--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --them like immediately like, this is my person. You're like, oh, no, I have to bring you home now because you chose me.
AMANDA: Exactly. It is something about it feels really special and much more interesting than person choosing you, because, like, who cares? It feels more special or more true. I don't know.
JULIA: That's straight up happened to me when I was in Rome during college. There is a like temple in the middle of Rome that just houses a bunch of like, stray cats that there like the temple takes care of them. But also like there's--
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: --like cats running around ancient Roman temple. So it is what it is.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: But at one point, we were like walking past it in this one cat. I remember the cat's face and look so vividly. They were like--
AMANDA: Oooh..
JULIA: --that kind of like sandy orange gray combination.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And they had no tail. And they were rubbing--
AMANDA: Oooh..
JULIA: --up against me. And I like leaned down to scratch their forehead, and I like immediately just like climbed into my lap. And I'm like--
AMANDA: Ooohh..
JULIA: I can't move now I have to stay here forever. How do I bring you home with me?
AMANDA: This is where I live now. But something about the fact that there is no language between you makes it feel really pure, like they see into the your soul and think like yes, you you are it.
JULIA: Yeah, I know. It's magical and wonderful. And it does make me feel like a chosen one. Which is very important. I do think like there is a certain element where a lot of these animal companions do speak your language. I don't think--
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: --it's always the case. But sometimes you just like, ahh yes, my faithful companion. My horse is dock, he's just my horse. So besides the animals just like randomly appearing in a cutting folks life. Sometimes they were handed down, like the spirit was handed down from either the family member who taught the person magic or the person who trained them in magic who isn't necessarily--
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: --a family member. But I do like the idea of this being like, oh, well, here's my raven he's been with me forever, and now he's yours.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's like a it's like a graduation present or an heirloom.
JULIA: Exactly. It's like my mother gave this to me. And now I give it to you, except it's a living breathing magical animal. And then finally, other times, familiars would like appear when the magic user was going through turmoil in order to offer aid. I like the idea of just if I'm having a bad time, all of a sudden, I have a cat that's going to help me do magic. That's cool.
AMANDA: I love that as a person who doesn't have pets, that's something I really envy is like, I'm having a bad day and no one around me, you know, either knows or is able to like drop everything they're doing to be really tender with me, but my cat knows.
JULIA: My cat knows, and that's that's all that matters. I think we can talk a little bit more about a couple of folklore examples of animal companions. But first why don't we go grab a refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it. Okay, Julia, we have retreated to the kitchen during our fictional house party and getting our refills. Did you see the outfits on our newest patrons? The Gentlemen Monster, Emily, and Zam Zam. Adorable.
JULIA: Oh my god, so cute. They didn't have to dress up that much. They look great.
AMANDA: I know. It it kind of put me to shame a little bit, but also I love it.
JULIA: They look great, but not as sparkling as our Supporting Producer level patrons. Uhleeseeuh, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinzer, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi.
AMANDA: And somehow our Legends level patrons found a corner where they are lit perfectly from every angle. It's like that never happens to me. Audra, Bex, Clara, Drew, Lexus, Mary, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: Get some candid photos. They look amazing.
AMANDA: They do. And if you want to come to our virtual house party that's happening all the time in just supporting and loving each other. And and we know and you know, and everyone knows. Go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast where you can get all kinds of fun rewards.
JULIA: Amanda, I know you were telling a group of people at the dinner table before about a great thing that you've been watching listening to reading lately. Tell me about it.
AMANDA: Absolutely. I actually feel like every year for the last three years, this has been my reward for making it through a year, which is the Big Fat Quiz Show, which you can find on YouTube. And, Julie, I know that you are a big proponent of this as well, I think because there is nationalized health care in the UK. There's a lot of people who are just like full time, you know, comedians or people who go on quiz shows. And I think that's lovely. And I'm for socialized medicine for all. But in this case, the Big Fat Quiz Show is a bunch of lovely comedians, some of whom you may recognize from Taskmaster, or QI or other British quiz shows and name shows. Just talking about what happened in the year and every year. I'm just like, oh shit, that was this year. And it's so funny and it's like an hour and a half long usually. So it is a lovely thing to put on and watch and just kind of like laugh and reminisce. It's not too newsy, so you don't worry about having to remember all the things that happened this year. But everybody is reserved and feels like you are hanging out with some really smart funny friends.
JULIA: You know what I would personally love to be famous enough and funny enough where I could just be on quiz shows all the time. Just a quick show--
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: --guest. How do I become a presenter? Because I feel like my best humor is when it is like 85% of the time I'm just doing the job and then 15% I add a little sparkle.
AMANDA: No, I think you would be great at that. That's incredible. So that's what I have been watching but if you are looking for something to listen to folks, why don't you check out one of the other shows that Multitude makes. This week we would love to recommend The Newest Olympia.
JULIA: You can join Mike Schubert a first-time Percy Jackson reader on his quest in finding The Newest Olympian each week. He talks to a long-time Percy Jackson fan, to cover a portion of the series. And then they recap the plot beat by beat they dive into Greek mythology that is featured in the story and they sing the praises of Percy's incredible snark.
AMANDA: You can find that by searching for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app or go to thenewestolympian.com. And they have new episodes every Monday. Whoo.We love a weekly show.
JULIA: We do.
AMANDA: And finally, we would love to thank our sponsors this week. Firstly, we are sponsored by Skillshare and one of our oldest and lovely sponsors, we love Skillshare. And it's a great place for you to learn skills for work, for creativity, for hobbies, or just to relax and watch people who are good at stuff do the thing that they're good at. If you want to see my face recorded about two years ago, you can actually check out the podcast course that I made all about marketing. It is called Podcast Marketing and you can search by name or Podcast Marketing or Multitude at Skillshare.com/spirits which will also let you sign up for a free trial of premium membership. That is a free trial of premium membership at Skillshare.com/spirits. Listen, it's a great place to go. Whether you are a dabbler, professional, hobbyist, a master you are a creative person and you deserve to spend some time on your creative pursuits go to skillshare.com/spirits.
JULIA: Sometimes I sit in my bed at night and my mind is racing because I have my to do list for the next day. I have all my pending projects, and I just need to calm my brain. And so I can just focus on my breath. And I opened up my phone and I open up my Calm app and I pause and I slow myself down and Calm, is there to help me do all of that. And we're so glad to be partnering with Calm, they are the number one mental wellness app and it gives you all the tools you need to improve the way you feel. You can clear your head with guided meditations, you can improve your focus with Calm's curated music tracks, and you can drift off to dreamland after you've calmed your brain down enough to sleep. With Calm's imaginative sleep stories, which are for children and adults. So for listeners of the show, Calm is offering a special limited time promotion of 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com/spirits, that's c-a-l-m.com/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library, that's calm.com/spirits.
AMANDA: And finally, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy we talk about BetterHelp a lot on the show. And this month, we are discussing some of the stigmas around mental health often. And this is true for most of us were taught that mental health shouldn't be a part of normal life, that it's something that you pay attention to when things go wrong or if it's unusual, or if you're unusual, hey, get out of here. That's not how things are. We should take care of our minds just like we take care of our teeth and our bodies and our car maintenance and whatever else you do in life to make sure that no problems come down the road. That's how I face therapy where I don't necessarily always super want to do it every week but I know that it helps me stay me and when I'm feeling good. That's what I should particularly keep doing therapy because it's helping me stay feeling good. BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video phone and live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Give it a try and see why over 2 million people, myself included, have used BetterHelp online therapy once more. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Spirits listeners get to 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's b-e-t-t-e-r-h-e-l-p.com/spirits. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: So I don't really have a cocktail for us this episode, but I do feel like one of your favorite bar tricks, Amanda, is the perfect thing for an animal companion. And that's a Beer Shot Combo.
AMANDA: Beer Shot Combo! Yay!
JULIA: What was the one that you were telling me about the other time?
AMANDA: It was the smokey boy,
JULIA: Smokey boy, I love the smoke boy.
AMANDA: Yep, it's a medalla light and a shot of a Mezcal. What market you want?
JULIA: Nothing, nothing else. And I feel like for a lot of heroes and gods in folklore and mythology, the animal companion is the beer shot combo. It is the shot to their beer.
AMANDA: Fuck yah. Julia, you've never picked a better drink. I love this.
JULIA: I picked a drink that I knew that you my companion, my companion from--
AMANDA: Oohh..
JULIA: --the cradle would super enjoy.
AMANDA: So cute. Or perhaps an animal companion is sometimes a two for one happy hour. Like we used to enjoy the Jekyll and Hyde Club.
JULIA: Oh man, I missed the Jekyll and Hyde Club so much. Listen, friends who hopefully, you know, we'll be able to go to bars again sometime soon. That would be nice. Someday Find yourself a good bar, make yourself a regular there. I recently had a conversation with a friend where he was like, Yeah, we had to stop going to a bar because they knew our order. I'm like, that's when you start going more guy, that's when you start going more.
AMANDA: I really understand that some people don't want to be perceived or the sort of like social pressure to like, you know, acknowledge somebody is a little much. But I personally feel like if I ever got tired of that pre pandemic, I especially relish it now and walking into you know, a coffee shop or a bar or a bookstore or the place where you get your groceries and being able to be like, oh, hey, what's up to somebody who works there is like a precious precious thing to me now.
JULIA: I did also recently see a post where someone was like, yeah, I started going to this coffee shop. I thought the barista was really cute. So I just went like every single day and ordered the same thing over and over again. And then after like, eight weeks, I was like, I'll get my usual and they're like, what?
AMANDA: Ohhh..
JULIA: Like, you know. You can't make those people know what your usual is, they have to happen organically.
AMANDA: Yeah, like a faithful companion, they have to find you. And listen, everyone's everyone's ground down by their service job, it's not required. Don't feel bad if it doesn't happen to you. But if you ever get there where the bartender like this a precious number of times in my life. It happened to me where a bartender will like pour me a shot, or give me a drink or the keg kicks, and they give me half a beer that I was drinking earlier. It's just like, oh, man, there is no feeling of being seen. And like chosen and loved, like a hug from my parent is great, but like a free shot from a bartender. I mean, come on. That's just being chosen, man.
JULIA: I know that talk about being chosen by a companion.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Having a bartender know who you are. And also having a bartender trust you enough where you can text them and be like, hey, I'm coming in after Happy Hour put in three drinks for me anyway, is blessing.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or run to the bathroom, watch the register. Like of course I will.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And it's such a pure thing. Tip them well, if they ever give you a free drink tip than the amount that the drink would have cost you like it's symbiotic. It's wonderful. It's like a bird on the butt of a rhino. Like it's it's wonderful. I am the bird you are the rhino and I will stand on your butt all day. That's not quite. Okay. Well--
JULIA: No, I like it. I like it a lot. It's perfect.
AMANDA: Save me, Julia, save me.
JULIA: So Amanda, let's let's talk about some of the animal companions of the gods and the folkloric heroes of our of our times.
AMANDA: Fabulous. I want to start I guess, with the Norse because I feel like they have some interesting odd examples. And of course, these are not going to be exhaustive because there's a lot of fuckin animals and animal companions. I just picked the ones that I like the best, all right? So don't come at me in the Twitter and be like, hey, you forgot about, No, I didn't. I just didn't want to talk about it today.
JULIA: So let's talk about Huginn and Muninn.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: Do you remember Huginn and Muninn?
AMANDA: Of course. I do, best friend.
JULIA: Yes. So they are the ravens that were the companions of Odin, their names mean Thought and Memory. And it was said that they would fly all across mid guard gathering information that they would eventually bring back to Odin. So they were just like little gossips would be like, hey, hey, hey bud. Let me tell you what happened. Tell you what's going on.
AMANDA: So adorable.
JULIA: From the Poetic Edda, Huginn and Muninn fly each day over the spacious earth. I fear for Huginn that he may not come back. Yet more anxious am I from Muninn and that's Odin talking. Which is very sweet because he's worried about his little raven friends, love it.
AMANDA: I know it's so so cute.
JULIA: He also had wolf companions, did you know about that?
AMANDA: Oh, I this is this is ringing some bells and was a tickling some bells. That's not what I meant.
JULIA: Tickling the back of your brain.
AMANDA: But tell me more.
JULIA: They were named Geri and Freki and they are names basically both translate to ravenous and greedy ones.
AMANDA: Oh my god. Incredible. Like give me [29:50] little greedy one, come here.
JULIA: Well, it was said that they were quote "greedy for the corpses of those who had fallen in battle."
AMANDA: Oh, sure. Okay. I mean that's a useful. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty useless [30:01]--
JULIA: Yeah [30:01]--
AMANDA: --since Odin was you know, out there on the battlefields always making more bodies.
JULIA: But Odin was said this is the cute part about this. Odin was said to give all of the food on his table to his wolves, because he required no food only wine in order to survive. So it's just really good to know that even the gods were feeding their pets under the table.
AMANDA: I know it's it's so hard to resist.
JULIA: It's very, very cute. You just look at those eyes and you're like, oh, no, no, I know I just fed you. But also what if you had a little bit of my steak too.
AMANDA: I very rarely fed my dog from the table but he wasn't really a beggar. He would just kind of like be around.
JULIA: I know [30:37] also from the Norse were the two goats that pulled the chariot of Thor, their names--
AMANDA: Eeeee.
JULIA: --were, Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr and their names meant, "thin teeth" and :teeth grinder".
AMANDA: Listen, wonderful. I love a matching set of names. I love pets that are all named around the same convention or rhyme with each other or as a kid I would write stories about somebody who had a St. Bernard name Peanut and a little like Chihuahua or something named like I forget but like--
JULIA: Rouzer.
AMANDA: Exactly. Yeah, like a paradoxical names I just find to be the sweetest.
JULIA: I love that. What is the best dog name you've ever heard for the dog that it was? I'll share mine if you want.
AMANDA: Please.
JULIA: There is a podcaster named JPC from a podcast that I listened to called Hey Riddle Riddle and his dog name is Spaghetti.
AMANDA: That's a really good, I I I definitely go to food names as well. Like there's a dog named Tater tots that somebody shared in the during the party discord a few weeks ago and I thought about Tater tots every day.
JULIA: [31:36] it's so cute.
AMANDA: [31:36]
JULIA: It's so like, evocative. Like if I had to picture what kind of dog that was. I would picture like a real stout Bulldog.
AMANDA: Yeah, he he was like he was a real stat lad kind of like a mega mu--more kind of lab than anything else. But I could just see me like, come here, come here, Tate--come here Tater tots, come here Tater boy. You know, like he he just has to be Tater tot shaped in my mind.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Big crunchy Tater's fun. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. So these goats. I know you love goats, Amanda. Mostly I included these guys because not only were they great at pulling the chariot of Thor, but they also provided him with sustenance. Because if you remember correctly, Thor would often cook the goats and eat them and then resurrect them with his hammer and they would be brought back to life the next day.
AMANDA: I like to picture that the goats thought of this much like sort of a dog who will tolerate a costume. I don't love it necessarily. Unlike Blair Braverman's dog Grinch who loves wearing costumes. They'll wear it. But then later when it's done, they're like, okay, all right, back to what I was doing before. The goats are like, meh--all right, here we go. And they get to, you know, be rejuvenated the next day.
JULIA: Or like when you have to put little booties on dog's feet when you walk them in the winter. Because the like salt and sand hurts their--
AMANDA: Uh-uhm
JULIA: --little toes. And they're like walking weird.
AMANDA: Yeah, some dogs hate it. Some dogs like it, I bet. But other ones are just like, this is happening. This is happening. Whoops. Oh, here we go.
JULIA: And I will say like, there are a lot of gods that are just associated with animals. But they don't necessarily like have those animals as a companion. Like oftentimes we'll see them in drawings, like Athena has an owl and part.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But we don't know the name of Athena's owl. There's no like tales of Athena's owl. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Totally, because it's, you know, part symbol and the identity of the animals not as important.
JULIA: Right. Or you'll see, you know, Zeus has swans associated with him, but that's only because he turned into a swan. He doesn't have a swan companion, you know?
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: So I I think that's like kind of important to note, because people will be like, oh, well, what about this? I'm like, well, technically, we've only seen art. We never really heard any stories about that. And so it's a it's a whole thing. There are a couple of Greek ones that I do want to talk about. They're both dogs. A lot of these animal companions are either horses or dogs. That's just like how it goes.
AMANDA: Of course the dogs are great.
JULIA: They're loyal companions. And that's why--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --they are usually the faithful companions. So I'll tell you the story of Argos, he was the dog of Odysseus and basically like the one story about him is about his loyalty. After all the years that Odysseus was away, fighting the Trojan War.
AMANDA: Ohhh..
JULIA: And then eventually making his way back to his home in Ithaca. In this part of the Odyssey, the suitors of Odysseus, his wife, Penelope have taken over his home because he is presumed dead. He's been gone for 20 years. So Odysseus disguises himself as an old beggar so that he might sneak into the house without anyone knowing. And as he approaches home, he finds his old dog, Argos, who has been left out neglected in the stables and is very old and very tired.
AMANDA: Ohh-hohoho.
JULIA: And this obviously like you just react it saddens Odysseus quite a bit. Because he remembers Argos as it's like incredible hunting and tracking dog, full of strength, and speed, and vitality. And now he's just like a little old boy. But the problem is, even with his old age, Argos is the only one that is able to recognize the disguised Odysseus.
AMANDA: So cute, I can't handle it.
JULIA: So he sees his old master, but he only has enough strength to wag his tail and like raise his little ears, but he can't get up to greet him. And Odysseus knows that if he goes and greets his old dog it will give away his identity. So he has to pass by without saying anything and he sheds a tear as he does and then seeing--
AMANDA: Nooo..
JULIA: --his master one last time. Argos passes away like I stayed alive just to see you again. And there you are, and now I can go in peace.
AMANDA: [35:10] why you do stories? This is a not Eric safe ending for this episode. Julia.
JULIA: I'm sorry. No, this next one is actually very good, though. So this is the story of Laelaps. So he was the hunting dog of the Athenian Princess Procris, who was used by her husband Cephalus.
AMANDA: Ohh, I love giving your daughter a hunting dog.
JULIA: Yeah, it was either given to Procris' grandma who is Europa, but in other stories, it was a gift from the goddess Artemis to Procris.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, I feel like a dog gift to you by Artemis is kind of the best and most badass dog of all time.
JULIA: Well, he becomes even more badass because his name translates to hurricane first [35:54]--
AMANDA: Yeah--
JULIA: Incredible. And it was also said that he was blessed to never fail to catch what he was hunting.
AMANDA: Ooh, wow.
JULIA: Yes, so Cephalus, the husband of Procris, takes the dog on a hunt for the Teumessian fox. Who was a fox that the gods had also blessed that it could never be caught. So the gods were like, shit, this is a paradox, a dog that always catches what it's hunting is now pursuing a fox that cannot be caught. This is a problem.
AMANDA: Yeah, I love these kind of metaphysical, the immovable object meets an unstoppable forest-type situations. I love that human beings have been thinking about this shit for like 3000 years and people in bars being like, but what if that's always kind of how I think about philosophers. Even though philosophy is like, yeah, I don't know. It can be very serious, but also I imagine people just being like, bruh, what if?
JULIA: Much like these Freshmen Philosophy Majors in a bar--
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: --Zeus looks at this and it's like, shit, we can't have that. And so he turns both animals into stone and then cast them up into the sky as the constellations Canis Major and Canis Minor.
AMANDA: Yehey!
JULIA: I love that. Very, very cute. So I just picked a few examples just to kind of highlight obviously, there's Pegasus, there's Cerberus. There's a bunch of other different options. But I do think that it's important for us to talk about not just the animal companion, but also the animal helper. So sometimes these are animals who were said to raise an abandoned child, which is really common and a lot of like folklore and mythology. Sometimes they have the power of speech, and they possess a wisdom that the average person does not.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: There are animal companions in fairy tales like Toddlerhood and her goat, for example. But a lot of talking animals are very common in fairy tales as well. Like I said, the story of Prince Bajaja and his horse, there is the magical horse Falada from the Grimm Brothers, the Goose Girl, which sadly, Falada is killed halfway through the story, because there's a false Princess, and she's afraid of the talking horse. And so she tells the person to cut off that horse's head, but then the horse like speaks even after death. And it's like a whole thing.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: It's wild. But like the talking animal or the animal that comes out of the woods and helps the deserving Prince or Princess or Maiden, or what have you is a really, really common fairy tale trope. And it's not just like European focus, as well. Like there are plenty of indigenous American stories like, The Crow Brings Daylight. Which I think is a Inuit's story, or a Coyote Brings Fire. And these are just like instances of animals or animal spirits that are helping people with things. Just to be able to either achieve their goals or become human beings, you know.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: There's also the story of The Four Dragons from Chinese folklore, which is a story about four dragons that bring rain in a time of drought, even though the king is like, no, I'm gonna bring the rain and dragons like, you you can't, bro, you can't, you can't. I do think that there is kind of a difference here between the helper animal, the animal helper. And I really do think there is a difference though, between the animal helper and the animal companion. And I think this is a good time to kind of talk about a few more examples from like modern day fantasy elements and stuff?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: For example, almost all the Disney Princess movies have some sort of animal companion, animal sidekick kind of situation. And I do think that kind of honed in on a lot of young people's dream of having an animal companion. Because you're like, well, if you look at Mulan, she had a dragon and if you look at Moana, well Moana didn't really have one.
AMANDA: She had that chicken, it had an important role in the movie.
JULIA: Okay, so Heihei had a little bit of an important role in the movie. But he wasn't really like, I don't consider him an animal companion. He's just like an animal that kept showing up.
AMANDA: Yeah yeah.
JULIA: But yeah, I think that that has really sparked a lot of young people's like, I could also have an animal that helps me with high jinks and getting me out of sticky situations. Which like, do you think that there is a difference between an animal companion and an animal sidekick?
AMANDA: Huhh, that's a good point. I think so too. I think the sidekick they often have like an agenda of their own or they're kind of together because it's convenient. And the companion is more, maybe I think like a psychic as talking in a companion is not.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: This might be like a false dichotomy in my brain. But I think one is there because the wishes are complementary. And they both want to accomplish the same thing. Like I think in Mulan, that's one way that that goes. Like they might find each other, their paths cross as a result of what each of them is going for, versus the companion is more, you know, like the direwolf, right? That's like they're with you. because they're, you know, they're just there to support you in whatever you need. You know, I'm here.
JULIA: Yes, I think that companion comes with either a element of wisdom or an element of loyalty.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Whereas the sidekick, I like that you're like, talking versus not talking. Because the sidekick I do consider as talking. But like you said, the sidekick, I think is someone who has their own agenda. That they--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --are like there to help, but they're not providing wisdom necessarily. They're providing like physical assistance.
AMANDA: And they can certainly derail you versus I think an animal companion never would.
JULIA: Yes, or certainly wouldn't do it on purpose.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: So I pulled a couple of notable fiction examples just from my own brain, and also a couple that were recommended to us via Twitter.
AMANDA: Yeah, I love that you asked the conspirators what their favorite examples were and I use something I'm really looking forward to in these kind of like roundup trope episodes. Like let's examine, you know, this trope, this idea from cross folklore, is we want to hear about yours too. We're sharing our favorites and we want to hear about yours. So hit us @SpiritsPodcast on your social medias or via email and we will amplify some of your responses.
JULIA: Exactly. The first one that came to my mind and I've been thinking a lot about this series recently, for reasons that will be revealed sometime in the next few months. But the Avalon: Web of Magic series?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Did you read those as well?
AMANDA: I read the first few, but I remember you reading them.
JULIA: Yeah, so basically, they're like three girls discover that they have these magic stones and can do different kinds of magic. That's that's the basic like plot and there's like 12 books for some reason.
AMANDA: There's a unicorn, there's a forest, there's everything you need.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Some real like Lisa Frank as art is is also what I remember.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Because there's like just like full multicolored unicorns--
JULIA: Rainbow.
AMANDA: --in there. Yeah.
JULIA: Oh yeah. So for me like the ones that stick out the most, all of these girls ended up with like magic gold animal companions later. But the first one that comes from me that's like the definitive animal companion was Adrian and Storm bringer who is a talking mist wolf. And I'm just like--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --is this wise beautiful, mist wolf, a 100%.
AMANDA: It's everything I've ever wanted.
JULIA: There's also like you mentioned with direwolves Game of Thrones is a huge example of various animal companions. Whether or not you consider the dragons, animal companions is hard to say. But the direwolves almost certainly were especially, the ones that survived the end of the series. Even like anime has great animal companions like Sailor Moon has Luna which is one of my favorites from childhood as well. There's in a little bit more modern stuff. You have Appa and Naga from Avatar: The Last Airbender. And Legend of Korra, you have lion from Steven Universe, thank you, Regina B. There's Digimon and Pokemon, which Sarah Barris suggested which I even think of as like animal companions. But yeah, of course they are.
AMANDA: Hmm, we could dive more into that. Pokemon has a lot of stuff that's mythological and creepy as fuck.
JULIA: Yeah, I think we'll, I think we'll talk about that sometime soon.
AMANDA: Mmm, hmm.
JULIA: But like, I think I just totally forgot about Digimon.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: I think that's much more animal companion than Pokemon is just by nature of the plot of Digimon versus the plot of Pokemon. Pokemon is gotta catch them all. But there are a few special ones that will keep real close like you Pickachu.
AMANDA: Right. But the funniest thing I think, is that some of the Digimon is just like ripped men--
JULIA: Oh yeah.
AMANDA: --like evolved into just like ripped, ripped men.
JULIA: There's one that literally looks like a Tater tots, speaking of which. But he has little wings and then he--
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --has fully evolved into just a ripped giant angel man and you're like, ohhh!
AMANDA: Yeah, did you my lover's get in the chat? Get our murchies, getting our mentions. Because I don't remember that wasn't one of the series. I was like a Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon kid. And every time I learned another fact about Digimon, I'm just like, what?!!
JULIA: I was a Digimon fan. So you can still get in the chat but we'll have a lot to talk about.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: There was also like one series where it's like instead of having Digimon companions, you're going to become the Digimon and they're like what? What's happening? You can't just do that. But yeah, those are some great examples. Someone mentioned Margaret from the [44:20] books, Amanda, which I know is one of your favorite series as well.
AMANDA: Yes, a real sidekick energy, because Margaret doesn't give a shit what you think. Margaret is Margaret, and if your aims overlap good for you, and if they don't watch the fuck out.
JULIA: That was from AI on Twitter night eyes, the wolf from the Realm of the Elderlings book series, which I'm not familiar with, but that's recommended by Will. The writing which mentioned Salem from Sabrina The Teenage--
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: --Witch is another sidekick. I feel like, just because he's real sassy. Oh, Zachary Binx also from Hocus Pocus, which has big sale and vibes but is a little bit more responsible. And also I had a real crush on that cat back when I was [44:58]--
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: --as we talked about in Hocus Focus.
AMANDA: Binx bucks, that's for sure.
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: A 100%. He was just like a hot teenage boy that got turned into a cat and obviously that's attractive to me.
AMANDA: You're like this is fine.
JULIA: Yeah, this is this is fine. Dr. Moyer McTeer talks about Jiji from Kiki's Delivery Service, which is also great. And also pounds from Tamora Pierce's Trickster duology, which I haven't read. But I've heard very good things about it.
AMANDA: Very nice. But yeah, I mean, we would love to hear from all of you @SpiritsPodcast on Insta and Twitter.
JULIA: If you have one that we didn't get to mention, let us know. I'm sure it's like real cool. And I love learning about animals that will make me cry because of their loyalty and true hearts.
AMANDA: Absolutely. And photos are even better. Thank you Grace for the photos of pygmy goats. Can't believe it, they're so cute.
JULIA: Incredible little horns.
AMANDA: Urgh.
JULIA: [45:44] they're so cute. So that is all I got for animal companions, Amanda. I hope that one day you're walking in the woods and a giant leopard that doesn't make you sneeze comes out and tells you that you're ready to go on an incredible journey.
AMANDA: I hope so too. Well, thank you, Julia. What a way to start my Wednesday and remember everybody, stay creepy, stay cool.
[46:05]
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[46:12]
[Outro]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances and merch on our website as well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind the scenes goodies. Just a $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like a recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, Director's Commentaries, real physical gifts and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week. Bye.
Transcribed by: Vernon Bryann Casil
Edited by: Krizia Marrie Casil