Episode 267: Haunted Pokedex (with Eric Silver)
/Have you ever thought about how messed up the Pokemon world is? We have! We’re joined by Eric Silver to do a deep dive into the most terrifying entries in the Pokedex, and what it means for the folklore of the Pokemon universe.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of murder, child death, child endangerment, body horror, medical experimentation, racism, classism, animal endangerment, and freezing to death.
Guest
Eric is a writer, audio producer, game designer and teacher based in Brooklyn, NY. He’s the DM of Join the Party, a D&D actual play podcast with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators who make each other laugh each week. He’s created and produced 8 podcasts you know and love, and shaped many more. Follow him on twitter @el_silvero. He is not Eric Schneider.
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. Or region as it were. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 267: The Haunted Pokedex with guest, Eric Silver.
ERIC: It's me!
JULIA: Who's this? I've never seen you on this podcast before. You're new to these parts.
ERIC: That's true.
AMANDA: You sound much like Charles the Gamesman.
ERIC: No, I killed him.
AMANDA: Oh.
ERIC: In a bloody rage.
JULIA: Oh, no.
ERIC: Well, you know, he got-- he turned into a werewolf and then he attacked me. So, I had to, you know, find silver bullets and it was a whole thing. But no, Charles the Gamesman is no longer. It is just me, Eric Silver from over on the other side of Multitude. I like the idea that Multitude is like a big house.
AMANDA: Oh.
ERIC: And like I'm, like, in the basement, like, playing my little games.
JULIA: I was gonna put you in, like, the west wing or something like that, but no, you can take the basement if you want, bud.
ERIC: No they’ll fade all of my game books if it's-- if there are windows in the room.
JULIA: Of course.
ERIC: I have to be in the basement.
AMANDA: Are we certain that you and Eric Schneider have been in the same place at the same time?
ERIC: Oh, this is actually very important. I’m actually not talking about Pokemon. I'm coming on to say I'm not Eric Schneider, Spirits listeners. I'm not Eric Schneider.
AMANDA: You don't edit the podcast?
ERIC: I don't edit the podcast. I don't live in Ohio. I'm a different person. I am the DM of Join the Party where I amuse Julia and Amanda with my fun jokes and impressions sometimes.
JULIA: That's it. We don't play any games or anything. You just make jokes and impressions, and we laugh at them.
AMANDA: No, no, no. It's just impressions.
ERIC: You guys call out scenarios that I just do voices.
AMANDA: You're my Affiance.
ERIC: Affiance.
AMANDA: My intended, and --
ERIC: My betrothed.
AMANDA: My betrothed. And you like Pokemon, bud.
ERIC: I do like Pokemon. I am not the Pokemaster in my own household, that does go to Amanda.
AMANDA: I have caught them all.
ERIC: And I am only saying that because of the penance that I've done of not giving you the final evolution of Scorbunny because I was too tired. And it was-- there was a pandemic happening. So, like, for a full year, Amanda had only one Pokemon left but I didn't want to finish the run to get my Scorbunny to the final evolution of Cinderace.
JULIA: Rude.
AMANDA: It's okay. I found someone on Reddit who could trade with me.
JULIA: Classic.
AMANDA: Yeah, it was great. It's very-- they've a very efficient system. Pals, we've covered Pokemon on the show before. We dove deep, in fact, into the mythology of Sword and Shield. And what makes it different to what we're talking about today? What is the haunted Pokedex all about?
ERIC: Yes. So, what I find really interesting about Pokemon is the relationship of the Pokedex to the world building of the video game and how those two things are interlocked here. We are not going to talk about the mythology of Pokemon because the gods and the legendaries make absolutely no sense. They keep adding new gods which have to do with creation of the world. It's very complicated. And I'm sure that when we play Pokemon Legends: Arceus, maybe there'll be a little more clarification. We're not talking about that.
AMANDA: And you've covered it very extensively with Dr. Moiya McTier on Exolore, so folks should go check out that episode, if you're interested in that.
ERIC: On that episode, I also told Moiya that it is too complicated. We're not covering this as well, but we're doing, like, kind of similar thing here is that the Pokedex is where, like, all the information of Pokemon are kept, right? But the Pokedex is updated every single game both with the new Pokemon that you're discovering, so the idea of you're going to a different region and finding different Pokemon as new video games exist, but also there are more Pokedex entries on Pokemon that exist and then this becomes like an internal mythology intertwined with science of the Pokemon world. And then you need to remember that there are actual people making this stuff up. So, like, someone wrote all these things, and like, I don't think there's an internal consistent design team of Pokemon of, like, world builders. So, like, it's very interesting to me that the idea that this becomes, like, almost-- it is folklore in the way that-- that the observable facts of Pokemon, of these monsters that exist in the world then it kind of build up like oral tradition that, you know, you can say a different thing about a Pokemon that changes over time and, like, then becomes written down only in the Pokedex itself, when that might not have anything to do with, like, the actual moves in the game that you are going to use. So I found that really interesting, and some of these Pokedex entries are fucking wild and I really needed to cover these.
JULIA: Yeah, it sounds very similar to let's say, like, how an urban legend forms and evolves.
ERIC: Yes.
JULIA: Or how a cryptid might as people tend to "observe" these cryptids, more and more the lore of them grows or the scientific information on them that we have grows. And that's very true to Pokemon in the in-universe Pokedex because as trainers discover, catch these Pokemon and discover new traits about them, the Pokedex is filled in different ways.
ERIC: That's also interesting. I never thought of it like that. That, like, trainers is a specific job. Like, people do have a relationship with Pokemon within the Pokemon world. Like, I think you have, like, one partner Pokemon. But like, the trainers are, like, the equivalent of, like, a cowboy or an adventurer, right? You are going out there and you're the one-- or like an explorer in the colonian--
AMANDA: Victorian sense.
ERIC: In both the Victorian and the American colonial sensem, this episode actually has a lot of the same DNA as the David Rheinstrom critters episode.
AMANDA: Yeah!
ERIC: Like, compare what we're going to talk about here with that one. And that, like, you needed to go into the frontier, the wilderness, and you found these Pokemon. There's also the idea that, like, this is all compiled by children. They're, like, all trainers are like 10-years-old, or 15-years-old, like you are in the Pokemon games. There is also an unreliable narrator thing here and the fact that these things are stacked on top of each other and the Pokedex entries are, like, have exaggerations, or they're oblique or they are written very strangely, kind of like adds to that-- all that mythology and folklore getting added together.
AMANDA: I'll tell you my headcanon, which is that as you explore the Pokemon universe, the Pokedex is like a sort of shorthand or a notebook or scrapbook of sort of observations from, like, the one towns person that you ran into, on your way in and out of this town. Because there's, like, a passive voice and a real kind of mythological, like, gesturing at the truth, like, oh, sonny, like, you don't even want to know what's happening here, that these entries are written in. And so I think it's so fascinating for us to kind of analyze and really work through this text as evidence of mythology that exists in this universe. And the Pokemon that I pulled for this episode have Pokedex entries that make me go "Wait, what?" and want to really get into the mechanics and the lived experience of what exactly this Pokedex is getting at.
ERIC: Absolutely. So I-- I add solace to do is to find Pokedex entries that are wild, that are disturbing, that are very strange. And we can talk about how the- see how, like, what does this say about the Pokemon and how people, like, relate to it in kind of, like a mythological or folklorist sense. I'm now thinking of, like, Ash Ketchum has, like, a cowboy hat on and he's like, in the frontier. And he has to turn his cowboy hat around when he's about to do a Pokemon battle.
JULIA: You know, riding a Rapidash across the terrain.
ERIC: Absolutely!
AMANDA: Yeah. Pikachu riding in, like, a saddlebag.
ERIC: That's adorable.
AMANDA: Cute, yeah.
ERIC: Yeah, so does anyone want to go first? I think-- did all of us, like, look at this in different ways because I kind of put this on a-- I gave myself a little bit of a hard mode here. Ghost Pokemon are wild. We've talked about this before on previous episodes that I'm on or Charles the Gamesman has been on that, like, the Ghost Pokemon are very inspired by yokai which is something I don't need to cover on this podcast [7:27] that is. So, a lot of them are fucked up in the way that yokai are fucked up. So, I put a little bit of a hard mode on myself; that I chose non-ghost Pokemon as my entries. Amanda you chose, like, "Wait, what?"
AMANDA: Yes, I chose Pokemon that made me ask, "Wait, what is the lived reality of the Pokemon universe like?" What does this gesture at? Is every potential object haunted is kind of my thesis statement in question for my entries.
JULIA: I kind of went with a "Wow, that's dark." And also, I can kind of see the mythological origins behind that or ties to existing folklore, so that's where I went.
ERIC: I love that a lot. That's very good. Hey, remember, this is a kids game. Weird.
AMANDA: No, I don't. No, because I take it very seriously and I'm 29
ERIC: Don't tell that to the Pokemon company because they are convinced this is only for children and only children play it.
JULIA: There's a lot of children's ghosts in these entries for a game that only children play but we'll get there.
ERIC: Exactly.
AMANDA: So, one of the Pokemon that I brought I think both has a very clear inspiration from our universe, the "real world" but also makes me very curious about life in these regions, so this is Shedinja.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: This is basically a ghost that occupies the shed exoskeletons of cicadas, you know.
ERIC: Oh, right.
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: Exactly.
ERIC: I think it might be really helpful. Can you try to explain what this Pokemon looks like?
AMANDA: Oh, I sure can, hon. So, this is basically roughly a cicada-shaped Pokemon with a little halo above its head, which is pretty funny because it is very dark. Literally, it's a bug-ghost type. This is the description, okay? So, the most of his body is light brown, abdomen is gray, four protrusions on its underside instead of legs.
ERIC: Nice.
AMANDA: Two lines and circle at the abdomen and a white halo floats above its head. It has a pair of tattered wings divided into three wing tips. But don't worry guys, a hole between its wings reveals that the body's completely hollow and dark as it possesses no internal organ.
JULIA: Cool.
ERIC: Nice.
AMANDA: Yeah, and the mechanics of this is really interesting, too. In order to get one, you evolve a Nincada with an empty slot in your team, and then it just, like, appears and, like, possesses the empty Pokeball as your Nincada evolves, which is one of the more kind of unique forms of evolution in the Pokemon world. But there is just a lot of interesting stuff in the Pokedex about this. In Diamond and Pearl, it's described as a discarded bug shell that came to life peering into the crack on its back is said to steal one spirit.
ERIC: Oh, wait.
JULIA: Uh-huh.
ERIC: Hold on.
JULIA: Uh-huh.
ERIC: Hold on. Excuse me.
JULIA: Uh-huh.
AMANDA: Yup?
ERIC: I want to stop for a second is that, like, first of all, what do you think that halo is made out of?
AMANDA: Yeah,.
ERIC: Like, is it--
JULIA: Spirit.
AMANDA: Spirit, I guess.
ERIC: It's like up there.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: It's always around?
JULIA: Uh-huh.
AMANDA: I mean, if this Pokemon is supposed to steal your soul, I think it's so funny and odd that there is a halo and not, like, a ghostly cloud, you know, or like a terrible tail or, like, a creepy, you know, bottom cloud, like, it's a fully a halo.
JULIA: I think it's also important to kind of mention that a lot of Japanese media will take Christian motifs.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: And just utilize them because it is, like, a foreign concept. So, you, like, you'll see a cool character and he'll be wearing, like, a lot of crucifixes and you're like, "Hey, what's up with those crucifixes?" And it's never addressed.
AMANDA: Oh, fascinating.
ERIC: It's so funny in the way that people, like, look at Japanese culture and like, "Yeah, I love manga. I love Japan. I've had sushi." They do that with, like, American culture and Christian culture, which is so funny to me. You just see a dude in anime, like, walking around with a sword that's also a cross big enough to literally have put Jesus on, so funny.
AMANDA: But one of the things that really fascinated me about this Pokemon is one, I think it's just interesting, but they-- they also, a lot of the Pokedex entries describe this as floating in the air but it's completely still. Like, the wings don't move. It is not fluttering, it's not moving around. The Pokemon is completely still. In Ruby, it's described as the hard body doesn't move, not even a twitch. The body appears in fact, to be a merely hollow shell, it's believed that the Pokemon will steal the spirit of anybody peering into its back. Again, treating the Pokedex as a folkloric text, what is this teaching kids? Right? Is it, like, don't look too hard into a Pokemon? Because we've talked a lot about most recently, in the Leah Lemm episode about like, lots of, you know, tales about the forest are partly designed to keep kids from straying too far. Or to develop a kind of healthy sense of, you know, I better kind of think twice about what dangers may lurk, you know, outside of home. And, you know, is this asking kids not to get too close to Pokemon? Is it asking them not to, like, overturn empty shells, and it's also just, I think, interesting, poetical kind of dissonance with the idea of a cicada, which is mostly marked by you know, dormancy, and then this flurry of this explosion into life, loud in your face, like, something that you really can't get rid of. And then the shells you think of as just oh, you know, the threats behind you. But no, it might be a Shedinja, look.
JULIA: I think the question we have to ask ourselves in order to answer the one that you posed, Amanda, is whether or not in the Pokemon universe these are practical --
ERIC: Yes.
JULIA: -- advice.
ERIC: Exactly.
JULIA: Or if they are, like, warnings that we take as, like, folkloric warnings, and they are, like, trying to teach you a larger story. Like, does the Shedinja really steal your soul when you look into the back of it or is this trying to teach children a warning about something?
ERIC: Exactly, because, like, they are professors, and theoretically, the Pokedex is, like, a catalog of observed, like, fauna-- flora and fauna in this way, so it's a very much an interesting thing. It's not like you can use this mechanically, like this doesn't come up in the video game. It's not like you can turn your Shedinja around and the will-- and then you'll K.O. the other Pokemon. None of this applies which is wild. Is that, like, this is just a story in the way that it is.
JULIA: You mean there's no mechanics for souls in the Pokemon games?
ERIC: Weirdl, no. Weirdly, no. I really like-- what I also really like about Shedinja is that there are no changes in the Pokedex. Is like, boom, hard body. Boom, never moves, boom steals your soul. And this is from Ruby and Sapphire and then they just reproduce it for every thermolon. There are, like, no changes. We got it. Diamond and Pearl, --
JULIA: Nailed it.
ERIC: -- fine. Black and white, fine. Sword shield, fine. We got that in one I find that was really funny.
AMANDA: So, that's kind of my lens, the thing I'm interested in is, you know, what's-- what's the purpose of this and what does it teach people in the universe to do but who else has a Pokemon?
JULIA: I got one. I can go next. My first one that I'm bringing is Cacturne.
AMANDA: Yay.
ERIC: Yay.
JULIA: Who is a grass-dark type Pokemon. He kind of looks like a cactus crossed with a scarecrow. It's really interesting because he was first introduced in the Ruby and Sapphire games and if you have Ruby what you have is, "During the daytime, Cacturne remains unmoving so that it does not lose any moisture to the harsh desert sun. This Pokemon becomes active at night when the temperature drops." Totally normal, right? Like, that makes sense. Like, a nocturnal animal needs to reserve its moisture because it's a desert Pokemon. And then if you had sapphire you have, "If a traveler is going through a desert in the thick of night, Cacturne will follow in a ragtag group. The Pokemon are biding their time waiting for the traveler to tire and become incapable of moving."
AMANDA: Oh?
ERIC: Nice, fuck yeah dude.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in Emerald, they also mentioned that it hunts at night, so I think you can kind of start implying like, oh, this thing is waiting for me to tire and then it will eat me, which is a very common, like, especially in European folklore, but really anywhere where there was a lot of traveling between villages or towns and you're on that lonely road by yourself. You'll have a lot of creatures that will, like, follow or try to stray you from the path and then take you down when you get well and truly lost.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: And that it seems very, very true of Cacturne.
ERIC: I like the idea that Cacturne is a highwayman. Like, you're just gonna get jumped by some Cacturne. It's not even, like, it's gonna steal your soul, it's gonna do something, like, mythologically bad. It's just gonna fucking beat you up and jump you.
JULIA: Yeah, it's probably gonna eat you.
AMANDA: That's awesome. And I love that this is Nintendo, like, yes, on the one hand, it's a Nintendo sort of business strategy to make you buy both copies of the game or like, if you have two siblings, you know, you don't share one, you got to get both because you have slightly different information, but it also kind of gets to the sort of oral tradition. Like, these are slightly different pieces of information. Or if you as a traveler passed it in the daytime versus the nighttime or met somebody, you know, who knew this information or didn't. Yes, they want you to have to trade and make friends and buy the trading cable and spend more money in the Nintendo ecosystem. But also, it really makes the world a little richer.
ERIC: Yeah. What are we implying that there are two different types of experiences you have with, like, slightly different things?
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: It's very interesting. It's like they're almost like parallel worlds next to each other.
JULIA: It's also very interesting because it's Ruby and Sapphire which are very environmentally based plots for both of those and the fact that the Ruby one is the one that kind of talks about the desert in a more positive light and the Sapphire one is the one that kind of talks about the desert in a negative light is very interesting because Sapphire is all about water and Ruby is all about, like, heat and earth so...
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: That's an interesting pull as well that I hadn't thought about.
ERIC: I mean, I could pull you guys into the Poke Chapel and I can preach about the things that I do know about gods there. That is something I know is that Kyogre, the water-- the water god and Groudon, the land god, like, were in an eternal fight against each other about which is better, water or land.
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: Which created the earth and then the Rayquaza, the big dragon, had to come down and tell them to stop. Much like, you know how, like, in all mythologies, gods are fighting until their parent god tells them to stop. So yeah, that is interesting in the-- in the Kyogre one where water is good. It's like fuck this cactus.
JULIA: This cactus sucks. He wants to eat you.
ERIC: It's gonna jump you and steal all your shit, so I do find that very funny.
JULIA: What do you got, Eric?
ERIC: I think I want to start with an old guy all the way back in generation one.
AMANDA: Oh?
ERIC: I want to start with my good friend, Kadabra.
AMANDA: Kadabra.
ERIC: Kadabra, you might remember is kind of just like a little, kind of like fox demon from Abra, the one that teleports away. Kadabra is holding a spoon; has psychic powers. It was kind of like the premier psychic Pokemon in Red and Blue it has, like, a star in the middle of its head. So, in the beginning, it's like "Oh, look at this psychic Pokemon that has psychic powers. It's pretty cool. And then slowly there's this urban legend that starts to show up in Pokedex entries. This is from Emerald, it is rumored that a boy with psychic abilities suddenly transformed into Kadabra --
AMANDA: What?
ERIC: -- while he was assisting research into extrasensory powers.
AMANDA: What?
JULIA: How?
ERIC: What the fuck?
JULIA: And why is that? Why are there more than one of them?
AMANDA: That's terrifying.
ERIC: I have no idea. I don't know. The implication here that I was trying to figure out is that sometimes people turn into Pokemon in Pokedex entries. I don't know if it's the first one, this is like the first Kadabra which doesn't make any sense because there are Abras which turn into Kadabra.
AMANDA: Right.
ERIC: So, it's like I think that just a; if you tap into psychic knowledge enough and there are psychic people who use psychic Pokemon, like, you see that they have, like, floating Pokeballs around. They're like sometimes you can just turn into a Pokemon if you fuck with the spirits or the mythology a little bit too much. This is continuous. Fire Red, it happened one morning. A boy, this is a creepy pasta apparently. It happened one morning, a boy with extrasensory powers awoke in bed transformed into Kadabra.
AMANDA: Damn!
JULIA: Whoa.
ERIC: So, apparently that did happen. And then in Sun and Moon, this became more of a-- more of just a story. A theory exists that this Pokemon was a young boy who couldn't control his psychic powers that ended up transformed into this Pokemon. So again, was the first Kadabra a boy who goes transformed? And then we get really creepy in Moon. Kadabra's presence infests televisions and monitors with creepy shadows that bring bad luck.
AMANDA: What?
ERIC: The first time anything like this has ever been shown.
AMANDA: I know. I hear your point, Eric, which is like did someone in the office just, like, write this into the game draft? Like, how-- where'd this come from?
ERIC: Yeah, the first time we've heard anything about Kadabra being, like, evil or bad in any sort of way.
JULIA: This kind of stuff is like I'm wondering why not just put that as, like, a weird little side quest in one of the games, you know, like this Kadabra has taken over the television station because there is definitely a game where they have a television station and now you have to, you know, route it out of-- I don't know, it would be interesting. Include this stuff, so I don't just read about it.
ERIC: If Pokemon was more of like a real RPG and not like a Pokemon RPG, like, think Skyrim, think The Witcher.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: Any of those where you had tons of side quests that would flesh out the world, there would be this stuff, but instead we just have weird Pokedex entries.
JULIA: Wild.
AMANDA: I love that. It also puts a whole nother layer on kind of the already questionable ethics of owning Pokemon.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: And trapping these pocket monsters in balls that you only let out from time to time.
JULIA: This is just a person that went through a bad thing.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: Used to be a boy now use psybeam
AMANDA: Oh no.
JULIA: This is like the origin story of 11 in Stranger Things.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: That's weird.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: They cut that scene because it didn't come out in the 80s, but 11 is actually a Kadabra.
JULIA: There we go. That makes sense.
AMANDA: Guys, I have a lot more to talk about. But first, I'm going to need a refill. Julia, welcome to the refill. Do you know who is never creepy and wouldn't steal the bones of any people or kids that they find along the way?
JULIA: Is it our newest patrons?
AMANDA: That'll be our newest patrons. Natalie, Kaitlyn, Cecilia, Tabitha, and Matthew, thank you for joining us. Listen, we do this as a living and we're able to have guests on, to pay our guests, to have transcripts of episodes go up when episodes go up because of the support that you give us on Patreon. It would mean the world to us if you went to patreon.com/spiritspodcast and became a member. You can get drink recommendations. Julia has a curse one that you're about to learn about right after the refill. And you can have beautiful drink cards that you can print out along with non-alcoholic drinks for every single episode going back 267 episodes y'all.
JULIA: It's wild.
AMANDA: Thanks to our Supporting-producer level patrons: Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Little vomitspiders running around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course those Legend-level patrons: Audra, Bex, Clara, Drew, Lexus, Mary, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: Wow, all of them, they just got invites to my next party. Look at it, it's a socially distance party. It's over the internet but still cocktails.
AMANDA: No distancing like internet. I love it. Julia, in your spare time, what have you been reading, watching or listening to?
JULIA: So, I recently found out that one of my friends has not watched the What We Do In The Shadows television series, so I'm currently rewatching that with her once a month when my husband is at meetings, and he's getting overtime and it is just as incredible and wonderful as I remember it being so...
ERIC: Adorable. I love that.
JULIA: It's a good time to revisit it if you haven't already.
AMANDA: And if after you listened to this episode, you're like, "God, I wish I could hear Julia, Amanda, Eric Silver, and other people from Multitude hang out and debate about topics and get frustrated about stuff in a fun way, I have good news for you, which is if you join the Multicrew, which is Multitude's membership program where folks help us to try things out and to do new podcasts and put our weird ideas into motion, you can listen to our weekly friendly debate show Head Heart Gut.
JULIA: Head Heart Gut is great. We basically decide stuff like what's the best fruit, or what's the best movie sequel, or what's the best thing to do at a theme park is and so much more. And there's over two years worth of arguments that you can uncover and see what are those, the best of those things. And so Head Heart Gut is exclusively for members of the Multicrew and you can join for as little as $5 a month at multicrew.club and get access to Head Heart Gut.
AMANDA: This month we're doing something special and talking about old stuff; stuff that's not new that we are newly enjoying. So, Eric talks about control we have friend of the show and new Multitude Host Sally talking about Veronica Mars and I am talking about Sex in the City and how much I'm enjoying it. So, if you're a patron and you enjoyed our tight eight minutes, you're going to enjoy my loose 35 minutes all about Sex in the City.
JULIA: Incredible. I love that.
AMANDA: And finally, Julia, let's thank our sponsors for this episode. Firstly, we are sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. We talked about BetterHelp a lot on the show. And this month we are discussing some of the stigmas around mental health. For example, some people think that therapy is only for people who are in crisis or really in need but going to therapy as you know, conspirator, doesn't mean something's wrong with you, it means that you recognize that all humans have emotions, and we need to learn how to control them and live with them and make peace with them, not avoid them. So, BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist, so you don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It is much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be back to the therapist in under 48 hours. Give it a try and see why over 2 million people, myself included, have used BetterHelp online therapy and I use it every single week. Again, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Spirits listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's b e t t e r h e l p.com/spirits for 10% off your first month.
JULIA: If you're like me and you're a person, that means you probably love learning and creating things and expressing your creativity. And there's no better way of doing that then by taking online classes from Skillshare. You can learn stuff like illustration, design, photography, productivity, and so, so much more. And with Skillshare short classes, you can move your creative journey forward like I did when I recently took a class called Hand Sewing Basics: Work Wonders with Fabric, Needle & Thread because I'm gonna be honest with you. I've been on Instagram a lot and I found a whole sub genre of, like, quilting and stuff like that. I really want to get back into quilting.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: But I know that if I want to get better at quilting, I also need to up my game in terms of my own, like, hand sewing, so this is a great way to kind of jump back into a pool that I used to be able to do but not so much now. So, you like me can explore your creativity at skillshare.com/spirits where our listeners get a one month free trial of premium membership. That's one month for free at skillshare.com/spirits.
AMANDA: And finally, we are sponsored by DoorDash. If, like me, you often find yourself fully scheduled from 10am to 7pm maybe I should stop doing that. I mean, oh man getting a little bit too real here in this ad, then you will find that something like DoorDash can be really really helpful in clearing out your to-do list. You can get dinner, household essentials, and stuff on your grocery list all delivered safely to your door. If you're ever, like, get home and then you've done shopping and you're like, "Oh shit, like, I forgot my deodorant, or the one thing I need for this recipe, or oh my god, I was intending to cook but I am so wiped out." DoorDash can be a really, really useful tool. And for a limited time, our listeners can get 25% off and zero delivery fees on their first order of $15 or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter code [spirits] That's 25% off up to $10 in value and zero delivery fees on your first order when you download the DoorDash app in the App Store and enter code [spirits]. Don't forget code [spirits] for 25% off your first order with DoorDash. Subject to change, terms apply. And now, let's get back to the show.
JULIA: Eric, since you're our guest, do you have any, you know, gamer juice aka cocktails that you would recommend for our listeners?
ERIC: Yeah, I want you to go find the gamer soda or energy drink Bawls. B a w l s, that is a real thing. I don't know if it exists anymore. If you can't find Bawls just find the most limited edition Mountain Dew you can get your hands on and pour whatever gin you have nearby into it. Is a gin and juice? Question mark?
JULIA: I'm a big fan of getting the frozen Baja Blast at Taco Bell.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: And then drinking, like, a third of it and then filling the remaining two thirds up with tequila.
ERIC: That's really-- I'm honestly that sounds really good.
AMANDA: Honestly, I want it.
ERIC: I like that a lot.
JULIA: It's the best way of making a at-home frozen margarita.
ERIC: Nice. That's still a gin and juice question mark. If you're using Mountain Dew of any kind, regardless of what alcohol it is, it's still a gin and juice question mark.
JULIA: I don't think I've ever had a mountain dew that wasn't Baja Blast.
AMANDA: That's great.
ERIC: Julia's a purist.
AMANDA: I love it. Well guys, can I introduce you to the other two pokes I brought for us today which possess more objects in the sword shield universe.
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: So, one is, as you may know, one of my favorite little guys, Polteageist.
ERIC: Polteageist.
JULIA: Little boy.
ERIC: Pol-tea-geist.
AMANDA: Exactly. And this is a species that lives in antique teapots. But fascinatingly, there are two forms to this pokemon and the-- the appearance of this little guy is a little purple goop a lot like Flubber I would say in a cracked but still pretty teapot.
ERIC: He's pretty adorable. Pokemon are really good at making even scary things look very adorable.
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: Yeah. And this is the evolved form of Sinistea, which is similar purple glop in, this time a teapot. So, a lot like Angela Lansbury and the child in Beauty and the Beast. There's two forms of Polteageist. One is phony, and one is antique. So, the phony form lives in forgeries of antique tea pots and occasionally an authentic teapot is found. Then the antique form is, like, better? It's like in a real teapot and it's also just a lot more violent.
ERIC: We talked about this in the --
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: -- sword and shield episode.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: This was just like, "British people love tea. Lol. Japan objectifying Anglican people, so funny." So, what is the Pokedex entry? Like, what does Pokemon have to say about this?
AMANDA: Trainers Polteageist trust will be able to experience this distinctive flavor and aroma firsthand by sampling just a tiny bit of tea. That's for the antique form.
JULIA: Hold on.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: This is a ghost. Why are you drinking it?
AMANDA: This is a ghost in a teapot and when it likes you it pours real tea into a teacup for you.
JULIA: Bad. Bad, bad, bad.
ERIC: So you're still using this for tea?
AMANDA: You are apparently.
JULIA: Horrifying.
AMANDA: And then the phony form in shield says --
ERIC: Wait, excuse me. There are separate entries --
AMANDA: There are separate entries.
ERIC: -- for antique and phony?
AMANDA: Yep. And then for the phony forum, Shield says leaving leftover black tea unattended is asking for this Pokemon to come along and pour itself into it, turning the tea into a new Polteageist. So, the Pokemon itself is old tea that's been ghostified and lives in a teapot. But I am just so interested in this distinction between phony and antique versions of this Pokemon. And the fact that it lives in either reproduction or real teapots.
ERIC: So wait, if there are separate Pokedex entries for each that means that, like, we're talking about two different subspecies, so is the idea that only the antique version does one thing and only the phony version does other thing?
AMANDA: Yes. So, it's like two different forms of the Pokemon. Much like a Castform can be in, like the different weather forms.
ERIC: No, I'm talking about, like, you know, if we were talking about, like, animals, right? It's like imagine, like, only orange cat do this and only black cats do this. Like, that's wild to me. Not even the same cat.
JULIA: You sound like that one Am I the asshole post that went viral like a couple of weeks ago. They're like, "Am I being racist against this orange cat?" And you're like, ah.
ERIC: Shout out to George. George is my main man.
AMANDA: This is like you are antique hunting and you pick up a cast iron pan and you look in the bottom and either it has a maker's mark or it doesn't. And specifically, the only difference between these two forms is that the phony form doesn't have the mark of authenticity that the antique form has.
AMANDA: Is this Pokemon's commentary on, like, classism?
ERIC: Probably, if it's from the UK.
AMANDA: I don't know.
JULIA: And how, like, everything is fine, take it normally, it doesn't fucking matter.
ERIC: They are real things. They are-- they're alive. I just can't believe that– that you're categorizing different types of animals or monsters just based on this and it's like, these people do this and these people do this. The gender essentialism of these things. The gender roles, the antique roles of these Polteageist dishonesty, it's very confusing to me.
AMANDA: Don't worry, Polteageist itself is genderless. We stan a genderless hero, so Polteageist itself; no genders ,ut there is a real binary between. It is fakery is real and depending on the form of the Sinistea, you need either a cracked pot or a chipped pot. And so, I think there's some kind of metaphor there that, you know, everybody's a little incomplete and and like, blah, blah, blah. The cracks are where the light comes in.
JULIA: I love that. Beautiful.
ERIC: Find the nearest homosexual couple and ask them which of them is the antique form and which of them is the phony form.
JULIA: Wow, brewed?
AMANDA: Incredible. I also want to talk about a little bit about Runerigus, which is a powerful curse woven into an ancient painting. Blah, blah, blah absorbs the spirit of a Yamask and then the painting starts to move. You can't ever touch it or else you'll sort of see that like horrific memories behind the picture carved into it, but I really think we got the main spirit of of the curse Sword and Shield objects with the first guy.
JULIA: Great. Awesome. Hate that.
ERIC: Yeah, you just really blew by being cursed by a painting but that's fine.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: You know.
AMANDA: You know, it happens. Yeah, like, in the world are you supposed to be scared of tea? Are you supposed to buy these teapots and hope there's a Polteageist inside? If you want to go and, like, find a Sinistea for yourself, do you, like, buy a bunch of tea pots and leave them half full overnight till they grow mold and your mom yells at you? Fascinated.
JULIA: Apparently that's easy to breed them because you just leave black tea in your tea pot. Easy peasy.
AMANDA: Only if it's phony though. Yeah, only if it's phony.
ERIC: Yeah, Julia, only if it's phony. You got to tell the difference.
JULIA: Classism is bullshit and Pokemon is saying that, that's all I'm saying.
AMANDA: Also wash your dishes, I guess.
JULIA: So, I've got my next one, which is Phantump.
AMANDA: Aw!
ERIC: Aw.
JULIA: He's a little boy. He looks like a tree stump with eyes and a mouth carved into it and then a little, like, smokey body kind of floating through the stump. Adorable, right?
AMANDA: One of my favorite guys from my favorite area of the game.
JULIA: So, he premiered in X and Y. And the first from X is, like, it's pretty sweet. It's like, "These Pokemon were created when spirits possessed rotten tree stumps. They prefer to live in abandoned forests." Great, simple, easy. And then Y says, "According to old tales, these Pokemon are stumps possessed by the spirits of children who died while lost in the forest."
AMANDA: No!
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: So dark. So typical.
ERIC: I don't like the way that humans can turn into Pokemon.
AMANDA: I know.
ERIC: Like, we-- That like when you die there's no kingdom of heaven waiting for you. Sorry Christianity, you're gonna fuckin' turn into a ghost. You're a Ghastly now and I know that's what Brandon Grugle wants when he dies. I just-- I can't get my head around that at all.
JULIA: I mean, we're back on the souls and the spirits and that's-- I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that. Sun and Moon kind of expand on this one which Moon says "According to legend, medicine to cure any illness can be made by plucking the green leaves on its head, brewing them and then boiling down the liquid," which is very cool and very sweet. Love that. And then Sun expands and says, "Their cries sound like eerie screams." And then Ultra Sun says "By imitating the voice of a child, it causes people to get hopelessly lost deep in the forest." It's trying to make friends with them. Supposedly it's trying to make friends with them, but if you go to Sword, which is the next generation says, "After a lost child has perished in the forest, their spirit possesses a tree stump causing the spirit's rebirth as a Pokemon." And Shield says, "With a voice like a human child, it cries out to lure adults deep into the forest, getting them lost among the trees."
AMANDA: Bad. Dark.
JULIA: It's just-- it's real sad. It reminds me the Myling a little bit where it's like --
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: I was just thinking about that, yeah.
JULIA: The child spirits of abandoned children or children that were unfortunately killed too early. And then they become spirits who are just like, I just want to play but it's gonna kill you.
ERIC: Julia, I love this children's game that we're talking about.
JULIA: Yeah, this is a great children's game.
ERIC: The implication is that you as a child are to-- like the fighting of animals too much for you to look into the deep lore, I guess.
AMANDA: I know. I love a game where your head cannon can't possibly be as wild as the cannon.
JULIA: It's terrible. It's truly terrible.
ERIC: I would like to talk about Sliggoo.
JULIA: Sliggoo.
AMANDA: My goopy guy.
ERIC: My goopy guy. All right, so Sliggoo is the middle evolution. So as-- as always, Sliggoo looks like an awkward teenager.
JULIA: Love my boo.
ERIC: The entire line going from Goomy to Sliggoo to Goodra. They are dragons but they're goopy dragons.
JULIA: Goopy dragons.
ERIC: They're very fun. I love them. Goomy is just like a little goopy guy. He's just like a little friend. He is a little ball of goo and Sliggoo kind of like is growing a little bit the awkward teenager of like kinda like a dragon but also made out of goo. However, Sliggoo is haunted and terrible. And they have-- and whoever created Sliggoo has cursed him. It's like Goomy too cute; Sliggoo needs to be cursed in various ways. Here is what is from Pokemon X. You're ready? Amanda, I'm gonna need you to brace yourself.
AMANDA: Oh no.
ERIC: Because it's gonna be sad.
AMANDA: I actually right now have a Sliggoo as my buddy in Pokemon Go because I need to evolve him.
JULIA: Aw.
ERIC: So, I need you to. Unfortunately, you have to think about this.
AMANDA: Okay.
ERIC: This is canon. Again, I'm not saying this to make Amanda upset. It drives away opponents by excreting a sticky liquid that can dissolve anything. Next sentence.
AMANDA: Oh.
ERIC: Its eyes devolved, so it can't see anything.
JULIA: Mhmm.
ERIC: So, as it evolved, it's like no, you have goop eyes now. You cannot see unfortunately. They then expand on this in Sun. It has trouble drawing a line between friends and food.
JULIA: Oh, no.
ERIC: It will calmly try to melt and eat even those it gets along with well.
JULIA: It's gonna eat you Amanda.
ERIC: What the fuck, guys?
AMANDA: Oh, no.
ERIC: Why would you do this to my goopy guy?
JULIA: It's like when cats lick you and it's like, "Are you happy with me or are you going to try to eat me? What's happening?"
ERIC: Yeah, it's the real application when someone comes up to you and it's like, when you die. Your cat will eat your eyeballs. They won't help you. That's why dogs are good.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: That's the equivalent of what this Pokedex entry is saying. It's like someone did, like, a YouTube challenge. And it's, like, Pokemon but gritty, like, someone needed to make this --
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: -- a good reboot in the Pokedex entry. Truly for no reason, he's just a goopy dragon.
AMANDA: Oh, goopy guy.
JULIA: Goopy boy.
AMANDA: He was too cute. They really have to give them a dark backstory.
ERIC: They're really making up for Goomy being adorable. Also, in the Pokedex entry for Goomy, the pre-evolution of Goodra they say this is the weakest dragon Pokemon. I know that from stats. I'm looking at the math, you don't need to just say that, Pokedex.
JULIA: Let me just like this boy.
ERIC: Let me like the boy! So, that's what I have with Sliggoo.
AMANDA: My goopy guy. I also wanted to just bring up the kind of, like, lore of Pokemon as it affects other Pokemon which I thought was really interesting.
ERIC: Sure.
AMANDA: So, this is another cursed guy who sprite I hate Mr. Rime.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah, so our Pokedex entry is here.
ERIC: I think it's worth saying that Mr. Rime looks like a Mr. Mime, which of course is the most human of all Pokemon. And then they made him a fancy British chap.
AMANDA: They did. Yeah, he dances. He has a little cane made of ice. He has a mustache and just a jolly old, like, sports coat type situation. And the Pokedex entry in Sword is, "It's highly skilled at tap dancing, it waves it's cane of ice in time with its graceful movements." Fairly normal. And then in Shield, "It's amusing movements made it very popular, it releases its psychic power from the pattern on its belly," which is– is just pretty funny. But the thing that I thought was most interesting is that it apparently led to the Galarion evolution, like, adaptation of Mr. Mime where these guys' amusing movements were so funny that Mime Jr. in the Galar Region became its own regional variant that they loved the dance so much, and they dance so hard that they became, like, a subspecies and a regional variation based on just how sick this guy's moves work.
JULIA: That's so fucked up.
ERIC: When British Mime Juniors want to be fancy lads so badly they can turn into a Mr. Rime. I don't like that.
JULIA: That's weird. I don't like that at all.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I wonder if Mr. Rime is a, like, commentary on the way that, like, growing up in a society can change you.
AMANDA: Oh, say more. Say more.
JULIA: Just like I'm thinking about probably, like, early generation, or even, like, current generations of, like, Japanese people who became westernized when the Japan opened up their ports to England and the Americans and stuff like that. I wonder if that has something to do with how this is referenced.
ERIC: There is very much a through line here because Mr. Mime is just like a mime. But you're not just a mime now, like, you're going from your child form of Mime Jr. really underlining the fact that it's a literal child. You're like, "Oh, I don't want to be a mime. I want to be a British chap."
JULIA: Who rhymes apparently.
ERIC: I want to be a businessman.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, it's all-- Mr. Mime was also based on Charlie Chaplin who was a British comedian who became a cultural phenomenon not just in England, but I think kind of definitively in the US. And then for that to be kind of like refracted back through Japan through these games and then into the specifically UK based Sword and Shield regional variant. Fascinating.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: I just don't like the implications within the Pokemon universe of it.
JULIA: No, it's bad.
AMANDA: You don't like that he wears ice shoes and has a clown nose on his tummy?
ERIC: It's the eyes. He has, like, spooky, like, like, hypnotized eyes and then a literal mustache but again, he's probably, like, made out of fur not a mustache.
AMANDA: Well, at least he wasn't once a boy.
JULIA: Isn't facial hair on a human just fur people?
AMANDA: It's true.
ERIC: Julia, I didn't want to think about that, so why don't you talk about your next Pokemon while I reckon with that.
JULIA: Sure. So mine's a duo here because it is Sandygast and it's evolved form; Palossand.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: So, this is basically it looks like a weirdly shaped in child's attempt at making a sandcastle and it's got a little shovel stuck into its head.
AMANDA: My favorite guy in the new Pokemon Snap.
JULIA: Well, he won't be shortly because you're gonna find out bad things about him.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: So, he is said according to Sun to be born from a sand mound playfully built by a child, this pokemon embodies the grudges of the departed.
AMANDA: Why? Why ruin a sandcastle like that?
JULIA: Moon also says that it takes control of anyone who puts its hand in its mouth.
AMANDA: No!
ERIC: I have a question, Julia. I have a question here. It's-- so again, it's like what does this imply about the Pokemon universe and, like, the divine creators which are the people who make this thing? There's no reason that this guy had to be a ground ghost. It could have just been, I don't know if there were too many, like, ground-water types and then they're like, "Oh, we got to cut one of these. The balance is off." So they're like ah, instead of water we're gonna make a ghost just like fuck it up.
JULIA: Yeah, just make it weird.
ERIC: If you have, like, a divine creator, you know if you were making a fireside comic and you were drawing god it's god making a platypus. It's like oh, fuck-- fuck this up. Do some shit. Like, that's what these Pokemon are to me.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, that --
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -- feels right.
AMANDA: I'm picturing some, like, overworked parent who's a game dev and, like, going to the beach with their kids and they, you know, try to make a sandcastle and then it devolves into, like, a terrible, you know, like, argument or, like, tantrum. And then they're like, all my hopes and dreams left on that sandcastle
JULIA: Well, Amanda, it's funny that you bring up a parent because Ultra Moon says that if you build sand mounds when you're playing, destroy them before you go home or they might get possessed and become a Sandygast.
AMANDA: This is what I want to know. In the Pokemon universe as kids are growing up, are the parents always like, "Make sure you step on your sand castle son or else it'll become Sandygast."
JULIA: Apparently yeah. And then finally the funniest part with him is it has that shovel in its head.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And so, Ultra Sun says, "It likes the shovel on its head, so Sandygast will get serious and fight any children who come to take it back."
AMANDA: So, child, never pick things up at the beach.
JULIA: Yeah, just don't do it. Be like, "Hey, listen, once you lose something to the ocean, it's last forever and you're not getting it back."
AMANDA: Dang.
ERIC: Incredible.
JULIA: And so, the evolved form of this is a more ornately built sandcastle I would say and, boy, here we go. Sun says, "Possessed people controlled by this pokemon transformed its sand mound into a castle as it evolved its power to curse grew even stronger," No, no. Don't. Hold on. And then Moon, "Buried beneath the castle or masses of dried up bones from those whose vitality it has drained."
AMANDA: Oh my god.
ERIC: It's pretty rude.
AMANDA: That's pretty rude.
JULIA: And if you want to get real fucked up about the logistics of how this pokemon is.
AMANDA: I don't know if I do.
JULIA: Ultra Sun says each of its grains of sand has its own will. Palossand eats small Pokemon and siphons away their vital essence while they're still alive.
AMANDA: No.
ERIC: So Palossand is a collection of ghost grains of sand?
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: That's fucked up.
AMANDA: Why did we have to go there?
JULIA: And Sword says that the Palossand is known as the beach nightmare. It pulls its prey down into the sand by controlling the sand itself and then it sucks out their souls.
ERIC: I think I watched Beach Nightmare on the Sci Fi Channel at two in the morning. It was right after the mermaid train
JULIA: Checks out. Checks out.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: That's pretty cool though.
JULIA: I thought you're gonna say beach nightmare which is when Gordon Ramsay goes to a beach and he says "Oh this is terrible. How can we fix this?"
AMANDA: You know I thought these guys were just sandy ghosts and I was really wrong.
JULIA: They're not. Sorry, bud.
ERIC: There's, like, official Pokemon art of a Pikachu getting eaten by a Palossand.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: So, like, they're fully on board with it. The Pokemon Company is fully on board.
JULIA: Yup.
AMANDA: Here I thought Pokemon couldn't die, they just faint and then get revived by Nurse Joy. I was wrong.
ERIC: I think I want to do a Hall of Fame of most fucked up Pokemon you probably know about. I just want to, like, run through a few here. We have one called Spoink which is a pig with a big tail.
AMANDA: Cute tail guy.
ERIC: And at the bottom and holding a big, big pink pearl. Spoink bounces on its tail, the shock of its bouncing makes its heart pump. As a result, the Pokemon cannot afford to stop bouncing --
AMANDA: No!
ERIC: -- if it stops its heart will stop.
AMANDA: No!
ERIC: Seems rude.
JULIA: It's real like sharks can't stop swimming ever else they die energy, so I appreciate that.
ERIC: But it's a pig in front of you and not a shark.
AMANDA: It's so cute!
ERIC: I also want to hit some other ones. Drifloon which people might know about is a ghost balloon.
JULIA: Yup.
ERIC: With an X over its mouth, it, like– it picks up children and steals them. It tugs on the hands of children to steal them away. However, it gets pulled around instead but they kind of really push it and be like, Oh, no, that really happens.
JULIA: Depends on how light that child is.
ERIC: Yeah, because in Sun the stories go; it grabs the hands of the small children and drags them away to the afterlife period. Here's a– one just sentence. It dislikes heavy children.
JULIA: Yeah, then it bends.
AMANDA: Oh, man.
JULIA: I like that it carries them to the afterlife. And it's not like "Oh, yes, they're devoured one's, they get high enough or something like that
ERIC: No, they just-- they just straight up die. I also of course want to reference Cubone. When it's mother die, it only turns into a Cubone and it puts a skull on its head. I don't want to know about, like, the nature of that. Like, some people suspect that it's a Charmander --
AMANDA: Oh no.
ERIC: -- that then takes Charizard's skulls and puts it on and then it returns only normal. It loses its fire ability from grief. That is just, like, part of the mythology there. There's also a Paras and Parasect. You know, Paras is the little --
AMANDA: Oh, mushroom guy.
ERIC: Little mushroom guy. It;s an insect with mushrooms on it. Apparently, when the mushroom grows too big, it then becomes a parasite and the mushroom is controlling the bug.
JULIA: You know, casual.
AMANDA: No.
ERIC: You know, casually.
AMANDA: This episode was a bad idea.
ERIC: I think I need to hit on the Pokemon that makes the most sense for Spirits as a podcast. I need to talk about Froslass.
JULIA: Yeah! Our girl.
ERIC: And Froslass, I think embodies the most-- the mythology surrounding these Pokemon and I think that as people look at ghost Pokemon and are afraid of them then create these things. So Froslass is, like, one of those Pokemon that are just women.
JULIA: Yep.
ERIC: It's just a lady. It's kind of just like a floating ghost. It's-- It's ice-ghost type. Diamond and Pearl says, "Freezes foes with an icy breath nearly negative 60 degrees Fahrenheit." You know, whatever, the regular is really good, nice. Then, things start to change.
JULIA: Then things take a turn for the worse.
ERIC: It takes a turn in the next series in Heart Gold. Legends in snowy regions say that a woman who is lost on an icy mountain was reborn as a Froslass. So again, a person dying turning into a Pokemon.
JULIA: It's just the Yuki-onna. It's the Yuki-onna, gang.
ERIC: Then if you go Ultra Sun, it freezes hikers who have come to climb snowy mountains and carries them back to its home. It only goes after men if it thinks they are handsome.
JULIA: Hell yeah.
AMANDA: Yep, strong yokai energy.
ERIC: And then we continue to develop in Ultra Moon. It said, On nights of terrible blizzards, it comes down to human settlements. So, now, it's attacking men.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: If you hear it knocking on your door, do not open it.
JULIA: Don't do it.
ERIC: So, maybe yeah, this is the warning. Don't open a door in a blizzard. And then, finally in Sword. We're finally highlighting this one, underlining it. "After a woman met her end at a snowy mountain who regret lingers on. From then, this Pokemon was born. Its favorite food is frozen souls"
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Adorable.
ERIC: This is exactly what we're talking about. This is the peak, like, growth over time. Becomes more legendary, becomes more scary. But again it's just a Pokemon. People will catch this. The Elite Four of Diamond and Pearl use this. The ice-- The Ice Elite Four uses a Froslass. So, like, it's just a Pokemon.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: It's not a yokai. It is a Pokemon but of course we have to fold that spooky legendary.
AMANDA: Maybe the next time I play through Sword and Shield, I will do a intimidate my opponents run and choose the Pokemon that I think my opponents will most be scared by when they come out not for, like, stats reasons, but because they're creepy as fuck.
JULIA: Yeah. For vibes.
ERIC: I thought you were gonna say you're gonna do a misandry run. Where you only get Pokemon that are coded as women.
AMANDA: I'll do that first. You're right. You're right. After I finished my all horses run, which I am doing right now.
JULIA: Incredible.
ERIC: You are?
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. It's great.
ERIC: I like that.
AMANDA: Were there any other elements of urban legends and folklore in the Pokemon University you want to touch on today?
ERIC: The only thing that always confused me was what was the ghost in Lavender Town? So, if you remember all the way back to Red and Blue, right? You have to go to Lavender Town which is a spooky scary ghost town. You have to go into a tower that has cemeteries everywhere, people die. As Julia and I have talked about this before but, like, it is so spooky and the music is so spooky and there is a ghost that is there, telling you to go away and scaring you. And it's not a Ghastly and it's not a Haunter but it sure does look like them. It's kind of just like a weird mass. It has a real face in the updated version. It looks more like a Haunter but if someone made, like, a balloon animal of Haunter.
JULIA: I like the kind of in-universe answer to that which is you need special ghost equipment to see the true nature of these ghosts.
AMANDA: Oh yeah.
ERIC: That's what I'm saying. Like, it is a ghost of the Marowak. Like, that's really-- that doesn't make any sense though. There is no fine line between what are ghosts and what are Ghost Pokemon.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: Pokemon has a lot of issues with this in various ways. Like, Steel Pokemon are also objects. You know what I mean? Like, most of the time they're objects. Like, Fairy Pokemon or also magic and fairies in this way. Dark type Pokemon are evil, they're all evil or they're they, like, use/do evil tricks by categorizing things that are intangible in this way are then doing the thing that Pokemon loves to do, which is turning objects into things. Like, they're really blurring the lines of what is this category? What does this taxonomy mean in functional and nonfunctional existence? Especially when everyone agrees in this kind of like obvious taxonomy that, like, a Pokemon is a combination of one or two things and isn't other things. We're talking about, what was that Pokemon that's, like, a massive anchor? Dhelmise?
JULIA: Mhmm.
ERIC: And it's ghost-grass, and it's not water.
JULIA: Makes no sense.
ERIC: What the fuck are you-- or like it's steel-grass. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? This is an anchor. It should be in the water. But everyone in the Pokemon world is like "Nah, that's not a water Pokemon. I don't know what you're talking about. He can't learn Water Gun."
JULIA: Or like how Charizard should be a dragon type but isn't.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: Just fire and flying. Makes no sense.
ERIC: Exactly.
AMANDA: The messier the source text, the richer the interpretation.
JULIA: Yes, yes, yes. Nom, nom, nom.
AMANDA: Delicious. Tasty.
ERIC: I feel like you can say that at the end of every episode of Spirits.
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: Nom nom nom going to suck a trail to the sand now.
JULIA: Here's the bones, they're dried out.
ERIC: Check out these bones I have that it is right here.
AMANDA: Sandcastle above bones below.
JULIA: Oh, God.
ERIC: Let me just reveal my-- the bones I've been keeping. Charles the Gamesman is down here.
AMANDA: No!
JULIA: That's what happened to him.
ERIC: That's true. He wasn't a werewolf at all. I just killed him because I'm a Palossand.
JULIA: Oh, no.
AMANDA: Oh my. Well, Julia, this puts a lot, even richer meaning into the Lavender Town diorama that you bought Eric and me, so I'm going to look at it on our bookshelf and think if it is even more cursed than it was before, and therefore even better.
JULIA: I'm so glad. Well, Eric, thank you for coming on and bringing these very spooky Pokemon for us to learn a lot more about than I did when I played these games when I was 12.
ERIC: Absolutely. I'm always happy to come and do stuff and talk about things and podcasts-- podcasts.
JULIA: Podcasts.
ERIC: Podcasts.
AMANDA: Please remind the good people where else they can listen to your voice and read your thoughts online.
ERIC: Sure. Hi, I'm Eric Silver. I'm not Eric Schneider. We're different people. You can find me as the Dungeon Master on Join the Party. You might have heard of that podcast. The Dungeons and Dragons podcast here on Multitude. Amanda and Julia are there and some hot shit is happening on Join the Party.
AMANDA: That's true.
ERIC: We have the campaign to end bad Tuesdays right now. Join the Party is trying to go weekly, but we can only go weekly if we have 500 patrons so either join our Patreon, tell a friend. We really want to go weekly, but we really do need your support and we have some bonus, like, goals that we're hitting if we go above 500 which would be really sick. I'll see you should listen to podcasts and also follow me on Twitter @El_Silvero. El_ Silvero. It's my name if I was a Lucha Libre wrestler and the launch score.
AMANDA: Thanks honey.
ERIC: No problem, I'm the betrothed.
JULIA: That's true and you listening to this, remember, you're creepy.
AMANDA: And cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcribed by: John Matthew M. Sarong