Episode 238: Exploring Other Worlds (with Becky Chambers)
/We chat with award-winning science fiction author Becky Chambers! We define space opera, talk about building big worlds without confusing your audience, and creating “cozy science fiction”.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of colonialism, imperialism, military, environmental disaster, climate change, and ableism.
Guest
Becky Chambers is a science fiction author based in Northern California. She is best known for her Hugo Award-winning Wayfarers series. Her books have also been nominated for the Arthur C. Clarke Award, the Locus Award, and the Women's Prize for Fiction, among others. She has two new works coming out in 2021: The Galaxy, and The Ground Within (the fourth and final Wayfarers novel), and A Psalm for the Wild-Built (the first of her Monk and Robot novellas).
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out HORSE: A podcast about ridiculous stories, internet drama, and some of the biggest and baddest personalities out there today—all from the world of basketball.
Sponsors
- Brooklinen delivers luxury bed sheets, pillows, comforters, & blankets straight to your door. Go to Brooklinen.com right now and use promo code “spirits” to get $25 off when you spend $100 or more, PLUS free shipping.
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Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 238: Exploring Other Worlds with Becky motherfucking Chambers.
JULIA: I don't know if that's Becky's legal middle name.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But oh my god, Becky Chambers! I'm so excited. Anyone who has listened to this podcast and heard my recommendations for books knows how much I love Becky Chambers and the Wayfarer Series as a whole.
AMANDA: We love her books so much, and anytime you talk to someone who's writing you really enjoy, at least for me, I'm just kind of like, Oh my god, I hope my questions are okay. Oh my god, I hope that I'm, I'm taking up her time. But we had such a nice time with Becky she was so easy to talk to. I think we covered some fantastic stuff that I didn't even like, I love when a conversation goes somewhere. I didn't expect it to go and looking back. It's like this is exactly what I wanted to talk about. And that's how I feel about this episode. So I cannot wait for all of you to hear it.
JULIA: Yeah, I think everyone is going to have a good, good time because I know we had a really good time interviewing Becky.
AMANDA: We did and we had a really good time when we opened our inboxes and saw that there were two new patreons! Thank you so much, Alex and Rebecca! We so appreciate you along there supporting producer level patrons Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi and Julia, don't forget it. The legend level patrons, Audra, Chimera or Change, Clara, Drew, Jack Marie, Jaybaybay, Ki, Lada, Morgan, Morgan H., Necroroyalty, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: These are all people that I would be so glad to share a spaceship hurtling through space with. Like, I don't think we'd have any problems at all.
AMANDA: No, me neither. Well, Julia, it has been very hot here in New York. What have you been reading, watching or listening to to beat the heat?
JULIA: So I just finished another book and shout out to my cousin who listened to this show. And he's like, every time you make a recommendation for a book, it's usually a Hugo Award winner. And I'm like, I'm not doing that on purpose. That's just the kind of books I like.
AMANDA: Yeah!
JULIA: So this time around. I'm recommending Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee. It's a first book in a trilogy. And it's all about like, mathematics and calendars that allow warfare to happen in interesting and different ways. And also, it's like one of those things where a character is possessed by the ghost of another character. It's fascinating. It's very, very good.
AMANDA: Sounds amazing. If I saw any one of those descriptors on the back of the book, I'd be like, "Julia! Link!"
JULIA: Send me the link!
AMANDA: Well, that sounds great and as always, you can find a link to all the books we recommend on the show below or at spiritspodcast.com/books.
JULIA: Books!
AMANDA: Below what, Amanda? Below the title of this episode in the podcast app that you're appening and listening to us in.
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: And if you run out of books to read, or you're on errands and on a walk, and you're like, gosh, I caught up on the whole Spirits archive, what will I do? Great news for you, we're part of a podcast collective called Multitude and there are so many great podcasts for you to enjoy. This week we'd love to recommend that you try Horse. This is a show not about basketball, but about basketball culture, and myth and legend and all of the wonderful things that make this sport fascinating, not just what happens on the court. Hosts Adam and Mike want everybody to know how great the culture and history of basketball is. So whether it's a shot by shot breakdown of Get Your Head in the Game from High School Musical or breaking down whether or not Air Bud is actually good at basketball, they have you covered.
JULIA: He's not. He's just a dog--
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: --that can hit a ball into a basket.
AMANDA: Yeah, that like wild history of like flagrant betting and rivalries between players. It's, it's fascinating. They're truly the gods of our time. And this is one of the you know, the myths that holds the US together, and it's well worth getting into.
JULIA: Yes, so new episodes released every other Monday, just search Horse in your podcast app or check out horsehoops.com and it's a podcast about basketball because basketball is more than what happens on the court. It's also all the cool internet beefs.
AMANDA: So go ahead and check that out. But without further ado, we will let you get into Spirits Podcast Episode 238: Exploring Other Worlds with Becky Chambers.
AMANDA: We are starstrucked, flattered, delighted to welcome Becky Chambers to the podcast. Becky, hello, thank you for joining us. Please introduce yourselves to the, the few conspirators out there who may not know you and your writing.
BECKY: I'm Becky Chambers. I'm a science fiction author. I'm best known for my Wayfarer Series, the final installment of which is The Galaxy, and the Ground Within, which will be out next month. I'm also the author of various standalone works and I'm based in Northern California.
JULIA: I'm going to admit something up front here, I did the day after my wedding read the entirety of To Be Taught, If Fortunate just I was like, I woke up in the morning, I was like, I have nothing to do now that it is post wedding time. I guess I'll just read this novella real quick.
BECKY: I am. I'm honored by the timing and I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad that you know, I could, I could give you a jaunt in space after--
JULIA: It was wonderful.
BECKY: --wedding madness, yes.
JULIA: It was perfect. It was the perfect way to come down from all of that. But we're so excited to have you on the show. Becky, thank you so much.
BECKY: Oh, no, I'm, I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.
JULIA: Of course, we're going to talk a little bit about your books and stuff like that. And also, just world building as a whole. I would love to kind of get started with a couple questions that I had for you. So one of the big things that I love about your work, and I was talking to a friend who is a big fan of yours as well, to kind of introduce them to your books.We were talking about how in a lot of science fiction, especially the stuff that like, we grew up with. It's very intrinsically colonial. And your stories really seem to subvert that in a lot of ways. There's a lot of instances in the Wayfarer Series, for instance, where like species talk about how they were colonists in the past, like acknowledge the harm that they did, and then kind of show that they're trying to make amends, make reparations, or like continue working to make things right. So was the legacy of like, Space Colonialism, something that you were thinking about when you approach these stories? I, I kind of noticed that there's in particular the difference in viewpoints between like the Human Martians, and then the Exodus Fleet, which I feel like we should give some primer to with this question to your books.
BECKY: It definitely was something that was on my mind at the start, but I think it has grown and evolved as the series has progressed as have my own views on it. You know, when I first started the series, I was riffing so heavily off of this space opera that I grew up with and loved, you know, Star Trek and Star Wars and Farscape, and all of that. That's all very much my route. And the aim was to say, you know, what's it? What's it like, for an ordinary person to live here, I really wanted to build exactly that kind of setting, but just flip the camera around and just say, you know, if you're an Average Joe, what is your life look like here, but in that I did want to pick apart some of the things that made me go, "Hmm..." about space oppression, and colonialism is definitely one of them. It is something that is inherent. And actually not just to you know, how we talked about space fictionally, but in the real world as well. I mean, were, we, we were still seeing that today with the discourse around you know, should we go settle Mars and the language that gets used there, it's definitely something that's been on my mind from the start. And with this last book, Galaxy, and the Ground Within, it's something I, I lean into a lot more. And that was, I feel like it's been like a, a background consideration in the past, like something I always try to keep in mind. And with this one, I was really trying to lean into that a little more and digging into does this even need to be part of Space Opera at all? Do we even need to have this and you know, with the Wayfarers Universe I do because I've written three other books and I have to stick with it. How can we tell stories in space that either as you said subvert or avoid this entirely, I think is a question worth asking. And one I, I plan to continue tinkering with as, as years go on.
AMANDA: How do you define Space Opera?
BECKY: Oh, man, do you have six hours, how long is this podcast?
AMANDA: As long as we need it to be.
JULIA: We can do a full thesis, that's fine, let's go!
BECKY: I feel like Space Opera- Okay, I mean, there's two answers to this in, in very broad strokes. You can, you can look at Space Opera, as you know this umbrella term of saying you know, if you're looking for the specific vibe of multi species, spaceports and big intergalactic communities and you can hop planets around you know like like you're, you're hopping neighborhoods that’s Space Opera. More specifically, Space Opera typically involves big political machinations. You've got these larger than life plots. It is very operatic in its structure. Star Wars is a great example of that you have, you know, these epic battles between good and evil you often have emperors or, or you know, like galactic royalty or you know, it's it's, it's very over the top. So, in some respects, I do think I write Space Opera because that's the tradition I'm pulling from, but in others I'm not, i'm really not, you know? Because I, because I'm talking about like working on middle class people who do not affect the politics of the galaxy. I would say I'm more Space Opera-ish if we're going by a traditional definition, but as with all things genre related, I mean, you know, if you ask 10 people that question, you'll get 11 different answers. So...
JULIA: Yeah, when I tend to recommend your books to other people, I tend to describe them as Cozy Sci-Fi, which is not to say like, there's no question conflict or anything, but it very much feels like you're kind of following the everyday lives of these people, like you mentioned before kind of flipping the camera to rather than the, you know, adventure of the week of Star Trek or something like that you're being like, well, what's the everyday life of those people living on that planet? Like, is there like, a reason that you chose to tell those kind of smaller scale stories rather than the big intergalactic war or the, you know, Trade Federation to steal from uh, Star Wars a little bit. I've been watching a lot of Clone Wars lately.
BECKY: As you should, as you rightly should. And that's, and I do want to preface this by saying that's my meat and potatoes. Like, I have always loved those stories and I still continue to. It's twofold, like, on the one hand, growing up with those stories, I never saw myself as the hero, I just didn't relate to that, in part, because I'm an enormous coward, but also just I was, I didn't see myself in that role. But I wanted to live in those worlds. And so I, I was always fascinated by the extras in the background of those sorts of shots, that people walking through the Spaceport, you know, the person who just owns like, I don't know, a bakery that gets wrecked during whatever, like speeder chase where he were doing, you know, like, who are those people? I want to know who they are. What's it like to be living alongside all this nonsense? But the other part of it kind of goes hand in hand with what I was saying earlier about, you know, the, the discourse we have around space exploration here in the real world. It's always been one of the elites. Back during the space race, you were talking about the Military Elite, those are the people who get to go to space, you know, the people with the right stuff, the best of the best, you know. Nowadays, what we're looking for in the astronaut corps is very much the Intellectual Elite, you know, if you look at the resumes of modern day astronauts, they're better people than most of us, you know? And, and now, as we're moving into, you know, the whole sort of SpaceX Era, who has the money to go. So now it's the Economic Elite, right? And so it's still, regardless of, of what decade we're talking about, it's a very, very narrow portion of humanity that actually gets to go there. And the same is true for a lot of Space Opera, or Sci-Fi in general. These stories are about exceptional people. They're about chosen ones, they're about princesses they're about even if it's like some sort of rebel underdog, it's the rebel underdog, who changes the whole galaxy. I see those narratives as being very interlinked, that we have this idea that space is for people who are, "Special", quote, unquote. And that's simply not the case, the universe belongs to all of us equally. We are all made of stardust in that, in that very Carl Sagan sort of way. And so I, I wanted it to be cozy, I wanted it to be low key, I wanted it to be something that you could slip into really easily because I wanted to try to drive home this idea that you can be here too, you don't have to be anything special, you don't have to leave a big mark on the galaxy to be part of it and to be at home here. That's been probably the biggest anchor point I've had through this series is trying to really make that stick.
JULIA: Yeah, and you do a fantastic job in the world building of kind of the differences in the human societies. I touched on it earlier talking about the Human Martians versus the Exodus Fleet. Can you give our audience a little like, taste of what that background is just a big, you know, I want them to go out and buy the books. But I also want them to be like, what, what are we talking about?
BECKY: What are we talking about here? Yeah, no, absolutely. So the, the history of humanity in this series, which is very old history, by the time we, we jump into the books is that humans, we rendered our planet uninhabitable and started to leave en masse. And the first people and I really, I'm sorry that I called this or not call I'm not i wasn't the person who did. But I wish I hadn't been writing this was that like the first people to leave were the wealthy who went to Mars. You immediately have this split between the haves and the have nots, you know, that the people who can afford it, go to Mars, and they terraformed the planet, and they settle there, and everybody else is just sort of stuck. And so, their last ditch survival attempt is basically to strip down all the cities on earth and use the resources to build these giant generation ships. And at this point, that we don't know that there's life elsewhere in the galaxy, it really is just this sort of Hail Mary, like, let's jump in a ship and go and see what's out there.
AMANDA: It's very human.
BECKY: Yeah. So Mars becomes its own sort of, it's become sort of the anchor of the Solar System. Like you know, if you're talking about, you know, people within the Solar Republic, as it comes to be called, that's the Capital there. Basically the Exodus Fleet is the one who makes contact with the Galactic Commons, which is the, the broader multispecies Parliament out there. And they, they have a very insular culture, but they also are the ones who interface most directly with alien cultures. And so you have this very, very big, cultural split between Martians and, and people from this Solar Republic and accidents, just philosophically, historically, they've come together on a lot of things by the time we meet them both in, in this series, but there's still just, there's a really wide gulf between them. And generally, humans, if they're looking at differences between themselves, like identifying where you come from in that regard, is usually the, the, the most key thing to them. Like that's the biggest difference is, you know, are you, are you from the Solar System? Are you from the Fleet? is what they're looking for first.
JULIA: And if you like all of that, that was just described there, Record of a Spaceborn Few is the one that focuses specifically on the Exodus Fleet. And oh, my god, made me cry when I read it, so... just a high recommendation here from Julia.
MIDROLL
AMANDA: We are sponsored this week by Brooklinen. Now, we said in the intro, it has been so hot here in New York and even hotter in other parts of the US and something that I really appreciate about summer is when I'm able to close the door to my room, turn on the air conditioning and get into bed under my lightest duvet and I didn't think that that sort of experience of like getting into bed were slightly chilly outside of that I'm slightly warm in my bed could get me better, but then it did because I got Brooklinen Sheets. And Julia this shit is legit. This shit is no joke Brooklinen through the buttery soft as I call them and they make incredible sheets. But not just that, they have new products, colors and patterns all the time in sheets, robes, towels, loungewear t-shirts and other things that you're going to want to put on and never take off. And of course, something that I really appreciate is that they are very confident in their products and they come with a 365 day warranty.
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AMANDA: Subject to change, terms apply! Julia, as the world is beginning to open up in some places in some ways you might be going out again you might be having plans later at night. I know bars in our area are now open till four in the morning.
JULIA: Whoo!
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AMANDA: And now, let's get back to the show.
End of MIDROLL
JULIA: I'm really glad that we get to talk to you about this, because not only are you an incredible writer, but you're such a master of world building, and you just learn all of that not through like, giant info dumps or anything like that. But you're able to kind of convey these huge intergalactic worlds without the audience feeling particularly lost or confused or out of the loop. And also not getting these huge info dumps Is there like a way that you kind of go about making sure like, I don't want to lose my audience. But at the same time, I have to give them all of this backstory about the world and the galaxies and the species that inhabit it and stuff like that.
BECKY: It's something I'm constantly taking the temperature of as I work. Because I don't want the audience to feel overloaded. I don't want to, you know, come in and you know, slap you upside the head with five pages of exposition. The way I typically go about it is I will go through and do a lot of the world building first. There are obviously things I do as I go along. But I have a locally hosted Wiki, where I keep all of my info, and I have way more details than I will ever need. And I find that that really helps me to be able to not just give myself a good foundation, but also decide in a kind of surgical way, what do people actually need to know here? And what, what are the ways that I can communicate these things? And usually, they're very simple, I focus a lot on things like food or what you know, an actual home, you know, like a home in terms of the actual structure of it is like. What kind of technology are they using, like just the very, very basic everyday stuff. Because as is true in the real world, that's what communicates so much that what you eat is absolutely reflective of history and politics. How you get your water is reflective of that, you know, in, in situations like this, how you get your air, you know, like, what you do with your dead? What you you know, like, what kind of trade goods you have access to? All of these things, tell that story without you having to sit down and like, you know, walk people through, you know, trade treaty, you know, 31-B and here's how it works. You can just say, you know, this is the permit you need to get this and you understand that there's a history there. Attempting to paint a big picture with really small details is, is the approach I like best.
JULIA: Have I thought about trying to recreate Dr. Chef’s Smokey Bones? Yes, I have. Several times. I think I almost have the recipe down.
BECKY: I, I am unfortunately absolutely garbage in the kitchen in real life. So I did, I will say I will admit, I feel like I'm decent at making appealing space food, but I would, I would like to eat it too. So
JULIA: I would also like to eat all these things that you describe. The fact that you use food as a way of world building is like such a huge thing. That's one of the big things that grabbed me at the books at first. I was just like, "Oh yes, I can picture myself sitting here eating these buns watching the stars go by in this like, beautiful garden. I can see that." You know?
AMANDA: Yeah, and so much of reading your books for me. And our conversation today reminds me of fandom and fanfic in the best way. Like that was very much the internet that I grew up in. And to me it was so much more interesting to think about, like you said, the background character, the one who is like, not named and like, what was their life story like? Or, you know, where are the bathrooms? And what are the closets look like? And like, where do you have breakfast? All those kind of like intimate or homely almost details are what make a world really real for me. And I, I just I love that I don't have like a pithy way of describing that. That is the kind of thing I want to think about when I think about world building. Not like a bunch of incomprehensible, you know, like political dynasties or treaties that, you know, it feels almost like a diplomatic briefing book. And it's like, that's not what I want. I want to go to dinner at somebody's house.
BECKY: I'm so glad you brought that up for two reasons. One, I will just mention as an aside, that I also come from a fanfic background like that was very much that was my life in high school. And, and I lived it well. One of the things that, that I have done to, you know, further this, this whole grand scheme of mine that I've mentioned, is things like, what do you eat? Where do you go to the bathroom? Where do you sleep? Because these are the basic questions you ask anytime you go on a trip, right? If you yourself are planning a vacation, that's what you figure out ahead of time. Where am I staying? What are the facilities like? Where can I eat around there? And what's interesting is if you look at, say interviews with real world astronauts, those are always the questions that come up in any Q&A session. What do you eat? Where do you go to the bathroom? How do you sleep? They’re the the most basic human questions and it's like we have to have those criteria taken care of before we're willing to like, take the jump elsewhere. So, it's something I, I do make a point of answering in all of the books so that you as a tourist in this galaxy can feel a little more comfortable and you know, can, can settle in easily. And, and you know, go wherever I take you from there.
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, there's scenes where different species are talking about the different kind of like, cleaning that they do for their bodies, typically. And like, what kind of soaps they use and stuff. And just like, I love this, this is all the stuff that I want that I don't want to just like, read a Wiki about, I want to see it and experience it in the world. That's why I describe it as Cozy Sci-Fi, because it's like, I'm being invited into someone's home in these books.
AMANDA: And that's also the best way to describe difference, because it's those daily activities that I have a you know, a, a routine experience of that I just did 10 minutes ago that I'm half thinking about dinner, you know, as I'm like, sitting down with a book that transports me to a world like that. I know that kind of adage that like, you know, many writers find that they love world building, and then the writing part is kind of more of a drag. Like, how do you come down on that? Like, is that a false binary? Or is that something that you kind of reckoned with or thought about as you have progressed in your career?
BECKY: For me, that's a false binary. I, I feel like those are very different muscles. Because I love world building, I could do it all day. And if you told me that's my job now is just build worlds, I'd be very happy. But I love writing dialogue, like I love, love, love writing dialogue, because those things go hand in hand. Because you know, I've done all this world building, but what does that actually look like? What does this actually mean to people to throw two characters into a room and have them actually talk about it is when I see that actually start to come to life. So for me, it's just a matter of learning when to stop one and work on the other. It's just, it's just figuring out, you know, when do I need to shift gears? You know? And, and how do I make these things work in tandem? but I enjoy both of them equally, I'd say.
JULIA: Amanda and I both come from at this point, like RPG backgrounds. And I feel like a lot of what you're describing is kind of like what a dungeon master or a, a game master would do for in creating their own worlds and creating sessions for their players to build in. Amanda, I think you had a couple of questions related to, to RPGs, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, the main one was, I know you play D&D, Becky. Can you tell us about your relationship to, to uh tabletop game?
BECKY: Absolutely. I, I'm a huge tabletop role player. I've been playing since college. I'm in my mid 30s now. So it's you know? So just, just to give you the, the time span there. There are a few things I love more than sitting down at a table and telling a story with people. And I have a campaign I'm in now, we're closing in our sixth year.
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: Wow.
BECKY: Not, not D&D, we're playing the, The Dragon Age Tabletop Setting.
JULIA: Gotcha.
AMANDA: Oh, cool.
BECKY: And I would say, at, at least an hour out of my day, every day is spent sitting you know, on Discord with my friends, and just talking character motivations.
AMANDA: It's beautiful
BECKY: You know, hashing out, you know, little scenarios, little, you know, you know, we go here, and we talk about this, what happens? go! You know? That kind of thing. It's my favorite thing in the world. And it absolutely does inform the way that I write and think about characters. I, I don't see how it couldn't be, it's storytelling. It's all storytelling. Whether you're telling a story for you know, a book that, you know, several 1000 people are going to read or whether you're telling a story for five people, it's all the same muscle. It definitely has, has shaped, you know, also in terms of world-building. Like, I think if you were to hold my Wiki up next to say, like, you know, a monster manual or something, you'd see a lot of similarities in the way that they're written. I'm sure there are other ways that it's influenced me that I haven't even thought of, but it is just such a core part of how I go about life.
AMANDA: Yeah, the main thing that comes to mind for me, like noticing in books and stories after becoming a tabletop role playing game player versus before is sort of cause and effect where like something that my character does in a party, in a game is going to have effects on what happens next on what just happened on my other players on you know, where the plot goes from here. And I remember struggling with that as a writer thinking like, it seems as if I'm just sort of charting like a path through the wilderness. And like the next step, I have to figure out on my own, but kind of seeing every option as a chain of cause and effect, none of which is necessarily good or bad. But all of which, like have consequences to me is so much more interesting.
BECKY: I think, to the idea of in video games and role playing games, branching dialogue is something that has really shaped the way I think about stories, you know, in that, okay, here, here's the question, what are all the different ways this could go and playing with that? And I definitely do that in my own fiction. I will try on dialogue in a lot of different directions and see which one I think fits best. This idea that there is no one way to tell a story that stories are very malleable and that you know, one little offhand comment can change everything. That's huge. That's probably one of the biggest shifts I've had in thinking about storytelling is, is encountering stories that changed with me.
AMANDA: That's something else that fanfic really kind of imprinted on my brain that I didn't realize was from fandom is like the AU you know, and the this little moment changes in books, you know, 3 of 10, and look how different the world is by the time we get to the end of the plot.
BECKY: Right.
JULIA: Absolutely. I do need to ask just because I'm always curious, can you tell me about your tabletop RPG character?
BECKY: Are you really asking? This is the greatest moment of my life!
JULIA: Please! Every time someone tells me they play D&D, or a tabletop RPG, I need to know about their character immediately. It says so much about them!
BECKY: The little girl in me who just was desperate to talk to somebody about nerdy stuff, I could go back and be like, guess what, you're gonna be 35 and someone on a podcast, you don't know what a podcast is yet. Someone's gonna put a microphone in front of your face and say, "Tell us about your OC." And like, I, I am transcending my physical form. So my character in my, in my tabletop campaign, Elladi De Mallet, she's a would have been Chevalier but she got exiled from the Empire of Orlais. She is very passionate, she's very stubborn. She's not always the brightest, but she tries. She is loyal to a fault and literally a faults. The biggest problems in our campaign currently stemmed from her.
JULIA: Oh, woops!
BECKY: Has a lot of opinions about wine, and about really everything. She's a lot of fun to play, and I should probably stop there.
JULIA: No!
AMANDA: It's a safe space, Becky. Tell us!
JULIA: So the last half hour is just gonna be Becky telling us all about this character and the entire plotline.
BECKY: I'm going to tell you about Elladi for the next hour. That's the podcast now.
JULIA: You can just sum up six years of, of campaigning.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
BECKY: No problem, no problem.
JULIA: In 30 minutes, right? That's fine. That is wonderful. Oh, my gosh, I'm so delighted that we could give you that moment.
BECKY: Thank you. I'm glad, I'm gonna dine off of this for the rest of the week.
JULIA: We were talking a little bit earlier when we were talking about like, where do you go? How do you get there? Where do you use the bathroom? What do you eat? And I really love the kind of portrayal that you do of accommodating for different bodies. So one of the big things that you'll mentioned kind of passingly in the books that I noticed was like, oh, well, you know, this chair was uncomfortable for this character, because it was human designed. And this is supposed to be a Laru style chair or something like that.
BECKY: Yeah.
JULIA: Or just like the entire plot of a, A Closed and Common Orbit with Sidra and her adapting to this new body. And I just I really love the way that you, you spend time kind of showing I wouldn't even call it disability, but like accessibility for different bodies depending on where they are in the world. And I think it's something that a lot of science fiction writers don't think about and especially when they're dealing with other species. So I just, I don't want to commend you for that. But I, I, I'm so curious as to like, why that was something you thought was super important to include.
BECKY: I think with all of this is that comes back to a very core idea for me, which is that humans are not the default template for the universe, you know? I hate that idea! I really hate the idea that we are the end all be all of evolution, that everything else is some weird variant of us. And I think that's a, you know, something that is a real problem for us in the real world as well that we think of this world is being made for us. Whereas like there's so much incredible biological diversity out there. And our bodies are not even remotely the norm. Things like that is, is just tying into that idea. When I go about creating species, I'm usually working with biology first. That's usually where I start. You know, it was important to me to make sure that while we do have, you know, non-human bipedal species in this universe, they're not exactly like us. It's not just us with a latex forehead, you know? And you know, and there are a lot more that aren't like us, they've got exoskeletons, they've got a lot of legs, they, you know, they're, they're different. I just wanted to make it as clear as possible that this is not a universe intended for us. It is a universe we're sharing with other people. And in that you have to get creative about how to make lots of different sorts of bodies comfortable.
JULIA: Yeah, there is a specific scene that I'm thinking about in To Be Taught, If Fortunate, which I don't want to spoil for anyone because it's a delightful book, but that one scene where they get off of the ship, and they go, what the fuck?
BECKY: Yeah! I know precisely which scene you meant, and I will like--
JULIA: Yes!
BECKY: --not spoil. But but yeah! I mean, that's the thing is, is biology. I, I think it's so, it's so boring. It's so boring to think about a universe that, that only has things that look like us. I, I don't want to live there.
JULIA: And like, from a scientific perspective, evolutionary wise, it took so many like random happenstances to create the bodies that humans have, or just like mammals have in general. That it would make no sense for another species to develop the exact same way only slightly different on other planets. It just doesn't make sense.
BECKY: It doesn't make any sense and especially when you consider that mammals are not in the majority here on Planet Earth.
JULIA: Yeah.
BECKY: Most things are other and that, you know, all you have to do is just you know, go look at a deep sea camera or something and look at just how incredibly variant these things can be. And I think there's so much beauty in that.
JULIA: Yeah, that's one way to terrify yourself on a, on a Friday morning is to just look at any sort of deep sea camera and be like, "Oh, no!"
BECKY: Your terror is my joy, so...
JULIA: That's fair. That's fair.
AMANDA: I do really love knowing what percentage of me is bacteria. That is just like, it's delicious to me. Like I am a closed orbit of other creatures inside me that are symbiotic, and that's beautiful.
BECKY: It is! You're your own environment. You're your own ecosystem, it's incredible.
JULIA: Yeah, for sure.
AMANDA: It also strikes me as a very queer thing to have lots of different kinds of, you know, bodies, families, attractions, you know, notions of gender, and sexuality as a queer person myself, like, it feels like I'm walking into a house that sees me and like, gives me the nod to see that kind of thing in a book. And I almost don't even have a question here. Because like I, I don't want it to be remarkable. I don't know. I don't think it should be a thing that is brave to put out there. But it's a thing I appreciate. And I wonder if you have anything you want to share on that topic?
BECKY: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that's it. Is that I want it to be as unremarkable as possible. Because I am absolutely giving you that nod. Because I can't imagine writing like what would be the point? What would be the point in me, as a queer person, writing a universe in which we weren't effortlessly accepted? Like, I can't fathom the thinking that would lead me to that conclusion. I wrote, the universe I want to live in, in that respect of this is unremarkable. It's just comfortable. It's just here, and we don't have to talk about it, there's no coming out, there's no labels for it there. It's just here. It's just intrinsic, it's part of the fabric, we can move on with our lives. And just be whoever we need to be. So I am very happy that you, that you felt that way. Because that's something that's always been absolutely crucial for me in writing these. But also, in a way where I don't actually have to try.
AMANDA: It's like being out with all queer friends or like being in uh, in queer spaces on the internet. Where it's like, yes, of course, like, it's not striking me that all of us is here, because all of us are just, you know, various genders, sexualities, you know, define ourselves in various ways. And like, it's, we don't see each other's differences with our differences from you know, the, the heteronormative standard.
BECKY: Right.
AMANDA: It's just like, hey, we're people, these are all parts of what make us like, beautiful, different beings, you know, let's like, order drinks.
BECKY: Exactly, exactly.
JULIA: And just because, you know, that is so common in your books and the norm in your books, it does feel like in a world where that isn't common, it feels like a celebration of difference. And I think that's what makes your books so beautiful, and something that I would want to thank you for.
BECKY: Oh, I, I really appreciate that. Thank you very much.
JULIA: Of course, it's okay, this is the gushing about Becky Chambers section of the podcast. There's a stinger that we wrote specifically for this. No, I’m kidding.
AMANDA: Well, here I have one question that is like quoting your biography to you.
JULIA: Oh, fun!
AMANDA: So I read Becky on your site that your family worked in Space Science, and I just, I had a little flash of like, child Becky being like, "No parents! I'm gonna write Earth books!" And so I'm just curious how that affected your, your upbringing? And if you're surprised to find yourself writing in space now?
BECKY: That's a great question. So yeah, my background is my, my mom is a, she's an Astrobiology Educator. My dad is retired now but he was an Aerospace Engineer. My grandfather was ye old school rocket scientist. He worked on Apollo and later the space shuttle like, that's just that was--
AMANDA: Wow.
BECKY: --just normal for me. It did not occur to me that other people did not have lives like this. I just thought like, everyone's interested in space. That's just how it is. I'm the weird, artsy one of the family. I majored in Theater. I never felt pressured in that regard, like one of the things I really appreciate about my upbringing, is that my parents really just kind of gave me free rein to do whatever I wanted to do. That stuff was very much, you know, in the background, but you know, so were there other interests as well. And I was encouraged to go whatever direction I wanted to go, it's not really a surprise to me that, that I ended up here. In some ways, it's funny because I feel like space is something I came to on my own, which obviously, is completely untrue, given the background I've just illustrated. But I can think of a lot of other things that my parents are passionate about or interested in that bounced right off of me. Space was something that, that I formed my own affection for, and deep attachment to and obviously they were there to foster that. But it is something that I feel I have a very intimate relationship with outside of just my family. So to me, it feels like a very natural evolution and even the fact that like, I do have an arts background, and yet ended up here, that also feels part of it as well, you know? Like, the, the reason I, I didn't stick with theatre, I did work in it for a while after college, but I looked at it and I was like, these aren't the stories I'm interested in. Like, the stories I'm interested in not being told here. Like I leave, you know, rehearsal or come home from work or whatever. And I immediately go watch Star Trek and play video games, you know, and I was like, that's what I need to listen to. So yeah, I just it's definitely something I absorbed from through osmosis, but now it feels like a very natural progression to me.
AMANDA: I love when people's careers are like a unique Venn Diagram of all the factors that went into making you you and you know, no other more direct path could have led there because it is by definition, you know, like the nexus of many overlapping circles. Are there any video games, Becky, that you find yourself returning to like a comfort play for you?
BECKY: Dragon Age is definitely a big one for me as evidenced by our, our previous conversation. I tend to not replay games a lot often I find that I will bury my head in something and it becomes my entire life for a few months and then I move on to the next. So it's, it's rare that I move backwards things that I really appreciate that I felt like scratched a similar edge to myself. Um, the game, Outer Wilds which came out a couple years ago was one where I was like, I just wanted to grab that game by the color and like, shake it and be like, I love you so much. I have no point to this other than I just wanted to put that out there because I feel like it's a game more people should play and if you're looking for cozy space stories, it's definitely one of them. In general, I tend to gravitate toward RPGs and stealth games as well. Those are my Happy Places.
JULIA: What are you currently in the middle of right now?
BECKY: I just started Assassin's Creed Valhalla.
JULIA: Fun!
BECKY: So good!
JULIA: Pretty good.
BECKY: Yes, yes.
AMANDA: Good world building in those games.
BECKY: Great world building in those games. I loved Odyssey.
AMANDA: Yeah.
BECKY: I loved it.
JULIA: I, I haven't played since the Egyptian one and I need to pick them up again. I'm just terrible at Stealth, I'm much better to hack and slash. So uh, so that's been my, my one thing keeping me away from the games for right now. But I'll have to for the stories. I've heard you can romance the shit out of people in Odyssey so I feel like I have to pick that up.
BECKY: You can! I absolutely slept my way through the Greek Isles.
JULIA: Oh, hell yeah! Sounds like fun. Sounds like fun!
BECKY: Yeah!
AMANDA: What? What more could one want from Escapist Entertainment? Like, that sounds beautiful.
AMANDA: Well, Becky Chambers if our audience has not been convinced to buy your books, or check them out from their local library, I, I don't know what to tell you, folks. But it's been a delightful conversation and people can find links to your site and your works and a, a place to buy your books via bookshop.org in the description of the episode.
BECKY: Fantastic. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun.
JULIA: Of course, and we're, we're looking forward to all of your new releases that are coming out in 2021 and the foreseeable future.
AMANDA: And remember everybody...
JULIA: Stay Creepy.
AMANDA: Stay Cool.
In memory of Rachelle Bacharo
Transcriptionist and Editor: Krizia Casil