Episode 344: Crowned and Fairy Tale Retellings (with Regis and Kahran Bethencourt)
/We’re joined this week by photographers and creatives, Regis and Kahran Bethencourt, to chat about Western fairy tale retellings, African folklore, and creating fairy tales for a new generation of kids!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of racism, beauty standards, misogyny, arranged marriage, death, and domestic violence.
Guests
Regis and Kahran Bethencourt are a husband-and-wife duo and the imaginative forces behind CreativeSoul Photography and creators of Crowned. With more than ten years of working with hundreds of children, families and brands, they specialize in child and lifestyle photography while incorporating authentic visual storytelling. As artists, CreativeSoul Photography is committed to helping kids and brands create fascinating imagery by operating as a one-stop shop offering expert creative direction, vision, planning, strategy, and execution. They've worked with brands small and large around the globe such as Disney, Amazon, Just for Me, CurlyKids Haircare, CamilleRose Haircare and more.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends A Day of Fallen Night by Samantha Shannon
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out the MultiCrew!
Sponsors
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: We are so pleased today to have two authors, photographers, creative professionals with us, Kahran and Reg, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining.
KAHRAN: Thank you so much for having us.
REGIS: Thank you for having us.
KAHRAN: We're excited to be here.
JULIA: We are so excited to have you. And to get us started, how about you tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do, and then we can get into all the— the delightful fairy tale details?
KAHRAN: Sure, sure. So again, we are photographers, but we like to say that we're more than just photographers. We really use our platform as a way to empower kids of color around the world by showcasing their beauty, uniqueness, and creativity. And so, you know, we felt like there was a lack of representation of positive imagery, in terms of kids of color in the media. And so we stepped in to do something about it. So, you know, we showcase them in really cool ways. We, you know, kind of serve as dream makers for them. So whether you know, they wanted to be a scientist or an astronaut, we really just try to showcase that in a really cool and unique way.
JULIA: Yeah, I know that one of the books, we're going to be talking about your—your newest book Crowned. But one of the books that really brought you guys into the spotlight was Glory, magical visions of black beauty. And—
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: I— looking at the photography, and that it is absolutely stunning.
KAHRAN: Oh, thank you.
JULIA: I know, you talked a little bit about it, but what kind of inspired you to like, come together and put these photos into a book that you know, could— could help bring kind of awareness to the ways that you can break the conventional beauty standards for black children?
KAHRAN: Yeah. So, you know, we started a series called The Afro Art series around 2017. And that was originally started with just showcasing the beauty and versatility of Afro hair. But as we started to shoot it, we started to realize that so many of these kids had, you know, so many unique and interesting stories, right? And so, our first book Glory, we highlighted, you know, each of the kid's stories. So, you know, we had a little girl who was a DJ, we had a young girl who was an eight-year-old neuroscience expert, right? And so we highlighted these stories of kids across the African diaspora from here in the US, from the UK, Ghana, Kenya, South Africa, everywhere. And so now with the Crowned book, it's, you know, kind of our take on fairy tales, right?
JULIA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: Because we also, you know, saw the lack of diversity within that space as well. And so, you know, with the Crowned book, instead of it focusing on stories from each one of the kids, these are actually fairy tales, right? So it's—the first chapter is our take on existing fairy tales, like Cinderella and Snow White, and Goldilocks. But then the second chapter actually contains African folklore stories, right? Because we felt like you know, we never hear about those right? We never learned them growing up. So, you know, we thought it'd be interesting to do our spin on kind of a modern take on some traditional African folklore stories. But then the third chapter we're super excited about because we get to highlight new stories of our own right? New fairy tales of our own that we've created. We have, you know, a princess with no hair, we highlight a story about a little girl in real life, she has cerebral palsy. But, you know, we just wanted to showcase you know, a diverse range of kids everywhere. Our frog prince has albinism and the princess has—has vitiligo right? So, you know, we just have a wide range of kids that can really, you know, hopefully, see themselves represented in these fairy tales.
JULIA: Yeah. And it's really stunning. I love the retellings of all of the fairy tales, whether it be the African diaspora stories.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: Or the kind of classic European fairy tales. I would love to talk about. Let's—we'll go through kind of chapter by chapter and talk about it a bit. But I love the childhood reimagined, which is the kind of European fairy tales. And what I liked, too about in reading a lot of them was one, a lot of the stories in fairy tales tend to be very romance focused.
KAHRAN: Yes, [4:39]
JULIA: And obviously this is a book—
KAHRAN: Right.
JULIA: —featuring children and stuff like that.
KAHRAN: Yes, yes.
JULIA: And I really liked that you changed a lot of the focus from like, this is not about romantic relationships—
KAHRAN: Right, right.
JULIA: This is about friendships and stuff like that. It particularly— I mean, the first story of the book rather is the retelling of The Little Mermaid that you did.
KAHRAN: Right. Yes.
JULIA: And one, love that she doesn't lose her voice in that.
KAHRAN: Exactly.
JULIA: Very good. Is able to stand up for herself—
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: —is also fantastic.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: And two, I love that it's all about her trying to like, find these friendships out there and like, find people that she feels like she belongs with before realizing like—
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: —hey.
KAHRAN: And her realizing that all along, you know, she already had what she needed, right?
JULIA: Exactly, exactly.
KAHRAN: But yeah, I think Reg and I, you know, you can kind of speak to this a little bit Reg, but when we were, you know, when we were kind of looking through to figure out one, which fairytales we were gonna do, and we started, you know, we were like, binge watching all the fairy tales, you know, on YouTube, and, you know, trying to try to get through all of them and—
REGIS: You know, it just started off like, you know it was started off a little funny, didn't know, I was like, oh, my gosh, [5:43] every store and we read, and just reheard, it was just like, oh, my God [5;47]
KAHRAN: The guy would save—the guy would save— like the guy would save the day, or, you know, Reg was like, wait a minute, we— he came in one day, and we were like, listening to Goldilocks and he was like, wait. Like, first of all, what is this—what is the moral of the story?
REGIS: [6:00]
KAHRAN: Like second of all, Goldilocks just comes in, and she just, like, snatches up their stuff and, you know, there’s that. So in our story, Goldilocks, she actually, you know, was a little girl who had everything, you know, materially, she had all of these material things. And when she went to the bear's house, you know, they didn't have a lot, but they had each other. And she realized that you know, it wasn't about the material things that she would much rather, you know, have a family and people who love her, rather than just being surrounded with all these material things and not have, you know, people around her. So, you know, again, we were, you know, trying to, you know, just do a modern spin on some of these stories, because you have to think about it, a lot of these stories were written, you know, hundreds of years ago, right? And so—
JULIA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: —the— the themes then were different from what would be relevant today, so.
JULIA: You know the themes back then were more like, hey, marry the person that your father tells you to marry.
KAHRAN: Exactly, exactly. And you know when we were going through the—the African folklore stories, like a lot, like almost all of those were about, you know, the girl being sold off, you know, what I mean? For—for marriage, you know? And so, it was kind of like, you know, okay, let's— let's figure out a way that we can, you know, still tell these stories, but you know, in a more modern way.
JULIA: Yeah.
REGIS: Also like, we needed to reprogram [7:15]
KAHRAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA: It's true. And then when you realize that this stuff impacts what we think is normal, or what we are looking for, when we are kids, you know, I think a lot of people end up just like, you know, buying books for their kids or watching movies with their kids, and then they're like, oh, wait, what the he—what the heck is this?
KAHRAN: Right, right. Exactly. And I tell people, you know, because a lot of people are like, well, why do you want to remake these, you know fairy tales, and oh, it's just fairy tales. But I said, as a kid, you know, that's kind of all you have, you know, that's your first introduction to, quote-unquote, “real life”, right? And so—
AMANDA: Yes.
KAHRAN: You know, you look at these princesses, and you think, oh, my gosh, you know, my—my hair needs to be blonde, and it needs to be long, you know? Or you know, my skin tone needs to be a certain way. And so it really just helps them to, you know, just see themselves represented and feel more included.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, we're seeing that right now with I don't want to promote Disney as like a thing, but like The Little Mermaid.
KAHRAN: Yeah, I love it.
JULIA: Haley Bailey.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: It's beautiful. And seeing those reactions that you know, this—these kids of color.
KAHRAN: Yeah. And kids are all dressed up you know?
JULIA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: And just feeling like they finally have a part in it. Like, you know, it's—it's huge.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that one, that was your first story, and your artistic interpretation of it is absolutely beautiful.
KAHRAN: Thank you.
JULIA: And it—it makes me just so happy to see all these, and really like the—the hairstyling and the artistry is just stunning. Sorry, I just got— I'm gonna hype up this.
KAHRAN: No, thank you, thank you.
JULIA: Unfortunately, we're in audio medium, but I'm gonna—
KAHRAN: Right, yes.
JULIA: [8:42] you know, will obviously post links so that people can pick up the book and check it out.
KAHRAN: Right.
JULIA: But it is honestly gorgeous.
KAHRAN: Thank you.
JULIA: I'd love to talk a little bit more about I guess the process of how you chose the fairytales that you want to reimagine. I know you talked about kind of watching videos and trying to decide there. Was there like some that you were like, maybe we'll do that one, but it didn't make the cut or ones that you knew immediately that you want to do?
KAHRAN: Yeah. I can't remember which ones didn't make the cut, but I know oh, like, we wanted to do Alice in Wonderland. But one what— the story was so long, right? And we're trying to fit so many, you know, into this short format. We just felt like we couldn't really tell— you know, do the story justice, because I feel like, you know, it needed much more. And so we were looking at that, you know, in terms of the story and the [9:30] you know, how much we could pair it down for, you know, this particular book. But we were also looking visually to figure out, you know, which ones kind of went with our style, which ones we were inspired by visually, and which ones we felt like we could really, you know, do a good job and, you know, kind of putting our own spin on it. So we were you know, looking at all of those things. And then obviously, we wanted to make sure we had both boys and girls included. And so we had to make sure we had a mix of you know, boys and girls. And then for the new fairy tales, it was really, you know, just, you know, we had a few different things we wanted to do. Like, we didn't just watch that movie. Is it harder—Harder They Fall, the cowboy movie, right? And so we wanted to do like a co— you know, we always wanted to do some type of cowboy-themed shoot, so we did that. And you know, the Candyland, you know, we— I actually was inspired by there was a designer that we work with in Chicago, and she actually made all these beautiful, like candy dresses and pieces. And so it's like, oh, we could do something really cool with that. So, you know, in that one, we kind of got to do our own thing. So one of the stories was actually inspired by a friend of mine. So she's actually the designer that did the Red Riding Hood, and also Joker's Dragon. She had kind of a tragic story. Her daughter was tragically killed in a domestic violence situation. And her grandson was taken away. And you know, she hasn't been able to even talk to him or reach out to him, and that's been super painful for her. So she's been publicly like, you know, journaling and writing these stories for him, just, you know, hoping that one day he'll be able to see that, you know, his grandmother never stopped loving him, that she was, you know, still here.
AMANDA: Wow.
KAHRAN: So she would— she had these stories about, you know, this Joker, you know, character. And so we work together with her to create the story, Joker's Dragon, you know, in honor of her grandson, so that was really special. And I was glad that, you know, we were able to do it with a thought that, you know, he will be able to read this and know that, you know, this was a dedication from his grandmother, so.
REGIS: And she also created the outfit for it.
KAHRAN: Yeah. She—and she did the—the wardrobe for it as well. So yeah, it was super special.
JULIA: I love that. I was going to ask a little bit more about kind of the inspirations for the new stories that are featured in the third chapter.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: I am really in love with in particular the story of the princess with no hair. Can you tell me a little bit about the background for that?
KAHRAN: Yes. Yes. Oh, my goodness. So first of all, Morrigan is in real life. She's a little girl with alopecia and she is fierce, okay. Actually, just—we just had our Crowned fashion show for our launch party this past weekend.
JULIA: Amazing.
KAHRAN: And she was there and she was the life of the party, okay. Like, oh, yeah, we have like dancing videos of her where she is literally the center of the party. So, you know, I just love that about her. I love that she kind of hasn't let this condition define, you know, who she is. And I wanted that because I felt like, you know, with a lot of the fairy tales, it's always, you know, a princess, they have really long hair, and they have this flowing hair, and I'm like, Princess gonna have no hair, right?
JULIA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: You know, she can—she can rock it with no hair and she does it well. And you know, in this story, the aunt of the story was actually trying to—she was mad at the, that her sister, the girl's mother, and she cut all the little girl's hair off, you know, kind of in retaliation. And, you know, the little girl actually kind of turned around and taught her aunt a story, you know, that, you know, it wasn't about the hair, and that, you know, she can be confident and proud without it. So, yeah, I just— I love that story. I love that you know, it kind of mimics her real life, personality, and character. And, you know, I just want to show little girls that may be facing a similar situation that they can be confident and proud as well.
JULIA: Yeah.
REGIS: The story does reflect exactly who she is.
KAHRAN: Yeah, exactly.
REGIS: She doesn’t even want hair at this point.
KAHRAN: Right. Like she says, like, if she could grow hair, she doesn't want it, right?
JULIA: I love that.
KAHRAN: So yeah, I love that about her. Like, she is just super confident, and like, literally, you know, the life of the party, you know, when we were there, so.
JULIA: That's so beautiful. I really think that like a lot of the personalities of these kids that you feature really shine through in the stories that they're featured in the way you style them. It's— it's such an awesome thing to see and I love it so much.
KAHRAN: Yes, yes.
JULIA: Uh, that's beautiful.
AMANDA: It's also so amazing to see kids taking up the entire frame of the shot. And like I'm struck, especially with the—with the girl you're just mentioning who in the book is styled as a princess with no hair?
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: One of my favorite images from the book has an adult kind of looking off-screen—
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: —with her hands framing—
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: —like beautiful, you know, like headpiece that this girl is wearing. And it's just I don't know, it's such a moving like centering of kids, like literally and metaphorically.
KAHRAN: That was actually her mom.
AMANDA: Awww.
JULIA: Great.
KAHRAN: Mom had no idea that she was gonna be a hand model that day, right?
AMANDA: Well, she's beautiful nail, so.
KAHRAN: I was like, yeah, she did, she had her nails done and everything but you know, we really— when we thought about it, because we were going through these were like, should we you know, some of them obviously had adults in the story, but we really wanted the center— the focus to be on the kids. And so for this, you know, a lot of the story was about the girl and you know, her aunt and I just felt like I needed something. So I said, you know, let's just have the aunt's hands, you know, and the story kind of crowning the girl at the end and I felt like that was a good way to really sit or like you said center the focus on the model, but then still tell the story of the aunt, you know kind of crowning her, so I love that.
AMANDA: That's amazing.
JULIA: That's awesome. I—I'm such like a not a photography person. So Amanda thank you for like bringing up photography questions for me.
AMANDA: Listen, I feel like I'm like in expertly ordering addition French whenever I try to talk about visual art just because my—that is not how my brain like operate.
KAHRAN: No it's not.
AMANDA: I wonder for the both of you, how does your creative process start with imagining? Because it's to me, it seems so seamless that the words and the photos really flow together. So are those inseparable in your minds? Do you tend to start with one or the other?
KAHRAN: I think for the most part, we started with the imagery. So we, you know, develop mood boards for each one of these. So the mood boards had, you know, inspiration for clothing and the model, and the hair and makeup, everything. And then that helped to lead the—the story. So we had someone that kind of helped us with the stories to figure out, you know, how we can put them all together, and she was really good about—we really kind of collaborated back and forth to figure out, alright, does this make sense for this story? Okay, at first, we imagine it this way, but the girl is actually going to be in this purple dress. So you know, we need to adjust it a little bit. And so that was a really, really fun process in terms of, you know, kind of going back and forth and figuring out how do we tailor the stories to make it work for the actual images. Because obviously, we wanted the— the imagery to be the focus, and then kind of tell the—the story around that. So
JULIA: And I—I think you did a fantastic job in just like reading it and seeing the imagery and stuff like that.
KAHRAN: Thank you.
JULIA: I also really liked the way that like I'm particularly like on my screen right now looking at the— the beautiful image of ebony black from your retelling of Snow White and the poisoned apple.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: And I love that, while you look at the colors, you know instantly who the character is, but I love the kind of like African influence on the outfit. It's beautiful.
KAHRAN: Exactly. And I was like, you know that story, it actually— I just already knew with ebony black story, you know, we love when we visit Kenya, [16:58] culture, right? Like, and we knew that the colors and everything would kind of tie in with that. And so we wanted to kind of incorporate a little of that heritage into the ebony black story. And so we actually had the—the process for making that dress was actually interesting. Because it started with I have a friend that we work with and she's actually in London, but she hand beads, a lot of pieces that are like modern. They're kind of like a modern spin on traditional Maasai beading.
JULIA: Wow.
KAHRAN: And she had created this beautiful like corset piece that I loved. And it was one adult, obviously. So I was like, oh my gosh, like that would be so perfect for the dress that I want, you know, that I envisioned for the ebony black story. And you know, she doesn't usually do pieces for kids. And so she was like, well if you can get me a corset, I'll do it for you.
JULIA: Amazing.
KAHRAN: And so then I started looking I was like, wait a minute. Like kids don't have corset, that doesn't even exist, right?
AMANDA: Right, right.
KAHRAN: So basically, it was kind of a round-the-world collaboration. So our designer in Chicago, she designed the corset, she's to ship it off to her in London, she hand-beaded it, the designer in Chicago, also little did the dress that went underneath on the skirt and the sleeves. And so then she shipped the corset piece, and we placed it on top of the dress that we created. So— so it was really, really cool to see it all come together. But yeah, it was—it was really fun. I love that we were able to kind of incorporate you know, that bit of culture and still make it work. So that you recognize her as the, you know, the traditional character.
JULIA: Yeah. And what amazing collaboration to create it. That's—that's incredible.
KAHRAN: Yeah, yeah, so fun.
AMANDA: And you style her with a you know, Maasai shield, and there's like a beautiful, like beaded figure in the photo as well.
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: And like it makes all the sense in the world, in the visual language you put together that she'll also have like a beautiful neon yellow tool skirt, you know, underneath.
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: It's just, it's so cohesive,
KAHRAN: You know, it's kind of like incorporating some of the traditional but adding our own spin to it. And that's kind of what we do in our regular shoots anyway. So that part, I feel like kind of comes natural for us.
REGIS: And also, the beautiful thing that I love about my wife is that she— she uses our platform to give designers that don't get to shine a platform as well.
KAHRAN: Right. Right.
REGIS: Yeah. [19:13]
KAHRAN: So yeah, it's huge, you know, because I feel like a lot of times, there's so many, you know, talented designers that we've worked with in other countries or you know, just even here that, you know, I feel like don't get the spotlight. And so by us incorporating them into our, you know, work obviously, it helps us because they have beautiful pieces, but—
AMANDA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: —it also helps to give them a platform as well.
JULIA: How do you go about finding those people to collaborate typically?
KAHRAN: Oh, gosh. Social media, mostly. Yeah. Social media, but you know, we get them everywhere. We actually had that the lady that I was talking about the designer that made the Red Riding Hood piece and the Joker piece, we had—we were doing a photography workshop and this lady came up to us afterwards and she's like, I have to introduce you to Sarah Vaughn. Like she is amazing, she does these like Afro Victorian style um, dresses, and I just feel like your styles would mesh well together. So I went to look to her up, and I was like, oh my gosh, your stuff is amazing. And so we ended up working together on the Glory book. And then you know, we work together on this one as well. So yeah, it's all about, you know, collaborating and making connections. I feel like, you know, I love that everyone gets to kind of put their own spin on it. And I think it's what makes you know, our imagery so unique.
JULIA: That's amazing.
AMANDA: I was thinking so much, I am glad to see the image of ebony black in the studio with the portraits of people on the floor—
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: —is featured on your website, because it's so moving to have that like, it's the self-reflection, right? It's like the frames on the floor. It's like other black ancestors.
KAHRAN: Exactly, exactly. I said a lot of people don't realize those were all images of, I would say powerful black female figures. So there was like Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, all of those are images that are surrounding her. And I just, that's one of my favorite images, because I feel like it's so powerful for her to be there surrounded by you know, all of her, these strong ancestors, right? So.
AMANDA: And that made me wonder as well about the origin of your business, creative soul photography, and kind of how that came about. I really love that you state your mission as believing that everyone deserves to truly be seen, which involves images. But obviously, that word means so much more. So how—how did the business come about? And sort of what do you see as like, I guess, your day-to-day mission and work, what really lights you up and makes you excited to come into work?
KAHRAN: So when we first started out, we were doing, we were kind of like every other photographer, we were doing a little bit of everything, whatever you would pay us for, right? And I was actually still working full time in corporate America doing marketing and design and some other things. And so I just felt like we kind of came to a point where we would photograph a wedding and we were hated, right? Or yeah, we would do different things and I'm like, okay, if we're building this as our business, why would we build a business that we hate, right? Like, it didn't make any sense that we were going to be building this business that we were, you know, still going to not like it. And so, you know, I felt like we always had a love photographing kids, we just didn't know at the time that we could make a living from doing it. I didn't know any photographers at the time that were just focused on photographing kids, right? And so we started to just kind of do personal projects on our own on the side where we were just photographing kids in our own way. And then we decided, I don't even know why we decided on New York, but we, you know—
REGIS: We never been to—[22:30]
KAHRAN: —at that time. Yeah, we had never do— that was our first trip to New York.
REGIS: We didn't know it was gonna be that [22;35]
KAHRAN: We went to Times Square, because of course, you're going to New York, you're like, oh, Times Square right?
AMANDA: Yeah!
REGIS: Right.
KAHRAN: So we have these, like three little five-year-old girls and like this big afro hair and these big poufy dresses in the middle of the chaos in Times Square and it was insane, okay. But that's actually, you know, kind of the first time that we started to get attraction, you know, we started to get, you know, some folks that shared it. The reason why we ended up doing that in the first place was because we started to get in the kids' fashion industry. And a lot of the kids that had natural afro hair would come in to get their headshots, and the parents would have their hair straightened before they came in. Because they thought that's what they needed to do to get their kid into the industry, get them into GAP or Navy or whatever, right?
AMANDA: Sure.
KAHRAN: And so we're like, wow, at the early age, were teaching these kids that they're not acceptable, that they look is not enough, right? And so—
REGIS: And they're all [23:25]
KAHRAN: Yeah. And so we kind of took it upon ourselves to showcase kids, you know, looking fashionable with natural hair. And so that's kind of how we got started, and how we, you know, we just kind of evolved from there. So now I think our day-to-day, we, you know, really serve as dream makers, for kids. So parents, you know, they book a session with us, and we asked if your child could have the shoot of their dreams, what would it be, right? And—
AMANDA: Wow.
KAHRAN: —we obviously get some really interesting, some really interesting responses, but we literally just serve as dream makers. Reg gets nervous after that because now he has to go and make it happen, right? Also, he has to pull all the pieces together, and you know, whether they say they want to be a ballerina, or you know, whatever it is, we just try to make that happen for them. So yeah, it's—it's rewarding. Like, I love that space that we're in right now because it's really just the right you know, a lot of people see our—our social media pages, and they think that we only work with models. And I'm like, no, we just turn them into models, right? Like—
JULIA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: You know, we— 95% of the kids that we work with are just regular everyday kids. And, you know, I love that because they appreciate it, they love it, you know, it's like a big playdate for them. So
AMANDA: What a powerful act of like, self-assertion, you know, to, for you to ask the child within like props the parents to for saying like, I want my— I want my child to have their vision taken to life.
KAHRAN: And I said surprisingly, like, I love that. I would say 98% of the parents come like you know, at first I put it up. So I do have a section where, you know, I give the parents an outlet, because you know, obviously they're paying right? And so you know, I say parents do you have any specific preferences or requests, you know, so that I can figure out how to weave into it. But I would say 98% of them, say go with whatever the child wants, you know.
AMANDA: Wow.
KAHRAN: And I love that about them because it's you know, it's really their day and it's letting them you know, have a say in you know, what they want to do and where they want to be is really, you know, a reflection of them. So the photos are really a reflection of them. And I love that.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's like see— to see your—your image of yourself made real—
KAHRAN: Right.
AMANDA: Outside of your imagination is incredible. Reg, what was the last request that made you think like, oh, god, how am I gonna make this happen?
REGIS: It's not so much, it's just being like when they want to be something like a unicorn ninja or something.
KAHRAN: Oh, wait, I got it. We got it [25:37] So the little girl who said oh my gosh if I can find— I wish I could find her— her request. But she wanted to be a cheetah girl, but she also wanted rollerskates, she wanted to pie a mannequin in the face. She wanted to have Lizzo's music playing right?
REGIS: [25:54]
KAHRAN: Yeah.
REGIS: It's great, so [25:57]
KAHRAN: Oh my gosh. So wait a minute, wait a minute. I have it right here. So I'm gonna read it to you.
AMANDA: Oh my god.
JULIA: Beautiful. Let's do it.
AMANDA: Thank you.
KAHRAN: So, she says I want fun Lizzo music playing. I would look beautiful, fierce, and scary. I like yellow and black and a hand of white. I would be sword-fighting on a tropical island. There will be food in the pictures and at the photoshoot, I will be holding a lemon meringue pie and want be able to pie a mannequin in the face with it. I might also like to wear rollerskates. And I want to be like a cheetah, and I would love to have a cheetah cub and the shoot was me.
AMANDA: Oh my god.
JULIA: Listen, she knows what she wants, so shout-out with that.
KAHRAN: [26:35] she wants, but I said [26:37]
REGIS: [26:37]
KAHRAN: Yeah.
REGIS: [26:38]
KAHRAN: But you're gonna have to see the photo [26;42], we literally had a mannequin. And at the end she did get to pie mannequin in the face with her lemon meringue pie.
JULIA: Oh my gosh.
KAHRAN: Like it was so fun. Like her mom was like just over the moon. She—she said I had no idea how you guys were gonna put this together, but her mom was completely over the moon that we actually bought all this together. She had this big, like, oh my gosh, this extravagant cheetah gown with a long train.
AMANDA: Woah.
KAHRAN: She got a sword you know and this crown. And I mean it fit her perfectly. And we had a Lizzo music playing.
AMANDA: Naturally.
KAHRAN: And then it happened the day that she was going to see Taylor Swift in concert, so she got to wear her out to go see Taylor Swift afterwards.
AMANDA: Oh my god—
JULIA: [27:33] best day ever.
AMANDA: [27;33] this girl's life.
KAHRAN: Like seriously, like she had the best day.
JULIA: That is incredible.
AMANDA: Yeah. I think that was the best day of my life.
JULIA: Yeah, Just hearing about it.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: Oh, gosh, that's incredible, I want to see those photos. Please send them to us if you can.
KAHRAN: Yes, I will definitely send them over because they are—they are epic.
REGIS: So I stress up with the fact that back I can't—I think I overthink things a lot.
KAHRAN: Yeah.
REGIS: So I'm like, how am I gonna do all this stuff?
KAHRAN: Yeah. I think I kind of— I think but now I kind of, you know, we'll do a lot of the pre-planning upfront. And so that, you know, he doesn't have to do some of the earlier stuff. And then by the time it gets to him, I'm just like, okay, Reg, look, I need you know, a sword. I need this, I need this. You know what I mean? And it makes it a lot easier. Yeah.
JULIA: Oh, gosh, that sounds like such an incredible process. I love that so so much.
KAHRAN: Yeah, it's really fun.
JULIA: Let's talk a little bit more about your process and maybe a little bit more about the African folklore stories that you feature in Crowned, but first let's take a quick break.
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JULIA: Hey, it's Julia, and welcome to the refill. Let's start off by thanking our newest patrons, Sara and Noah. Thank you so much for joining the ranks of people like our supporting producer-level patrons, AUhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. And of course our legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can join the ranks of our patrons over at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. You can get recipe cards for every episode, ad-free episodes and so much more. Check it out at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I love to recommend things for y'all, and today I'm going to recommend a book that I am right smack in the middle of but oh boy, I love this chunky book so so much. It is A Day of Fallen Night by Samantha Shannon. 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JULIA: Now that we're back, we always like to ask what y'all have been drinking lately. Whether that is cocktails, mocktails maybe coffee to get through some of these photoshoots, etc. What have you all been enjoying lately?
KAHRAN: Oh, we are lame, we are both nondrinkers.
JULIA: That's all fine.
KAHRAN: [34:20]
AMANDA: Welcomed and celebrated.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: You'll love a mocktail.
KAHRAN: So yes, I'm—listen, on a daily basis I'm a lemonade girl. Okay, like I can—
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: Very nice.
KAHRAN: —like call myself a lemonade connoisseur.
AMANDA: Alright, so what—what are your—what are you looking for in a lemonade? What makes a great lemonade for you?
KAHRAN: Oh God. It has to be like the right level of sweet, like not too bitter, not too sour.
AMANDA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: You know I—yeah, just— it can't be too bitter or too sour I think. It just needs to be like the right level. Not too sweet either. Like has to be like that perfect balance. So yeah, I just— I'm a southern girl, so we grew up on lemonade, like lemonade was everywhere. I can do any type of lemonade. But yeah, I— that's—that's my thing. Reg [35:04] would— I was gonna say [35:04]
REGIS: I've been drinking a lot of coffee [35:06]
KAHRAN: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
REGIS: I mean, to be honest with you, I've never drink coffee before, but to be able to get through stuff that we've been doing—
KAHRAN: Yeah, right.
REGIS: I had to start getting Starbucks a lot.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA: Three books now [35:22]
KAHRAN: Right?
JULIA: That'll do it.
REGIS: What do I get the bland latte with the extra shots of espresso?
JULIA: Okay, yeah. [35:31]
AMANDA: Very nice.
KAHRAN: Yes.
REGIS: In cramps.
KAHRAN: [35;33] Yeah, exactly yeah.
JULIA: So, now I gotta ask if you have a like at-home lemonade recipe that your— is your favorite or you just like—
KAHRAN: I don't—I'm actually pretty—like when—when it comes to actually making it, like no.
JULIA: Okay, fair, fair. Totally fair.
AMANDA: I have never had a homemade like, homemade lemonade is not like homemade iced tea.
KAHRAN: Yeah, right, right. Exactly. Like I feel like now there are like some certain, like restaurants that you know, we have like this restaurant of the soul food restaurant pastels that I really liked their lemonade. So a lot of the soul food restaurants here, I feel like those are usually my favorites.
AMANDA: Yeah. I'm not gonna buy like 30 lemons, though to like, make a gallon of lemonade at home.
KAHRAN: Right, right. That's what I'm saying, right? So yeah, here like I can't nail it like they can, so I don't even try.
REGIS: Right.
JULIA: Listen, leave it to the experts.
AMANDA: Do you mess with like a you know, hibiscus lemonade, like a you know, like, an iced tea lemonade, or just straight out?
KAHRAN: No, straight lemonade. Yeah. I'm—Reg will tell you I'm so picky and playing like, I'm a southern girl at heart. I grew up with my great-grandmother who was like, this old southern grandmother, right? And she literally had, she cooks all food, like five days a week, right?
JULIA: Beautiful.
AMANDA: Wow.
KAHRAN: So I was like, yeah, we were— we were pretty much that was it you know.
JULIA: You got spoiled, you know?
KAHRAN: A little fancy—
JULIA: Doesn't get better than that.
KAHRAN: —like simple and southern, right?
AMANDA: Well, speaking of growing up, can you tell me a little bit about the stories you grew up with? And are any of them represented in this book? Or is this book more of an effort to branch out beyond the things you grew up with?
KAHRAN: Yeah. I think, you know, a lot of them, like, you know, Cinderella, obviously, Goldilocks, and the Three Bears, that was really fun. And, you know, Little Red Riding Hood, all of those are ones that I grew up with. But, you know, even though I love, you know, doing the, the reimaginings like, I—we both just like to tell news stories, right? Like, we feel like, that's kind of where we thrive. And, you know, we like coming up with our own characters and our own stories. And so, you know, I think that was kind of the part that we were most excited about, even though you know, we were excited obviously, to kind of have a retelling of some of these existing stories. But yeah, we just really enjoy coming up with new characters because it kind of gives us the creative outlet to do—to have our you know, our freedom right? Like there's no precedent for so you know, it's the sky's the limit we can do whatever. So yeah, I was— I was kind of excited about that.
REGIS: Yeah, and a lot of boys don't have stories either so I was excited that we included two—
KAHRAN: Yeah.
REGIS: —brand new stories to so.
KAHRAN: Right, right, yeah.
REGIS: Because we had a cartoon so.
KAHRAN: Right. yeah,
JULIA: That's fair. Yeah.
KAHRAN: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: I want to transition a little to talk about the African folklore chapter in particular. And first story in that chapter right away is one of our favorite characters from like all folklore, which is a [38:22]
KAHRAN: Yes. Oh my gosh.
JULIA: Love a [38:24]
KAHRAN: Oh, my god.
JULIA: Always good. Oh, and so many options for stories. How did you guys go about picking which stories you want to feature for this chapter?
KAHRAN: Yeah. So same thing, you know, we had to kind of figure out which ones would work best for our imagery. And then also, like I said, we weeded out a lot of them. Because a lot of them were like, you know, handing the girl off to her partner. You know, that was like, we really had to figure out where we could make the most—the stories that made the most sense. For this [38:53] story, actually, it was a really— that was— this is kind of my favorite, I guess, behind-the-scenes story of the shoot. So a lot of people don't realize we were actually in this room, we did the shoot from this room. The boy isn't gonna, the body artists isn't gonna. We figured out a way to remotely fire the camera.
JULIA: That's amazing!
KAHRAN: From our laptop.
AMANDA: Wow!
KAHRAN: From our laptop here. So we were on Zoom, and we were directed we were—we directed him on Zoom, we were kind of watching the body artists do his thing on Zoom. And once he had it all set up, we had an assistant that we guided on, you know which settings to put the camera on, he put it on a tripod, and you know how to set up the lighting. And then with the power of technology, we were able to remotely fire the camera from our laptop. So I mean, it is insane. So we literally— if you guys in the book, so we had to make him a spider.
JULIA: Yes!
KAHRAN: And so, you know, we had to have his you know, eight arms and we had him basically doing different, you know, hand positions. And we were able to kind of merge that together in Photoshop. So it was a really really fun process. I can't wait to— I haven't shared like I'm going to create a reel that shows like all the behind the scenes moments from that, because it was just a super interesting process and it's something that I haven't seen done before, and I haven't done before myself, but I think it's going to open up the door for, you know, so many other—other opportunities, you know, and, you know in case we aren't able to travel to a particular place, we could still, you know, figure out a way to do a shoot there. So I was super excited about that.
JULIA: Now, here, I am really excited about all these stories, but you're out here pioneering intercontinental photography.
KAHRAN: [40:30] Oh my god.
JULIA: That’s insane, I love that.
KAHRAN: Yeah, it was insane. Like I literally— because I remember during the COVID period locked down, like a lot of photographers were doing these uh, was it FaceTime sessions or something like that. And I thought that was cool. But, you know, as a photographer, you're like, I don't want the phone quality, like, I want my camera quality, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah. And you don't want to, like get a hard drive shipped to you, right? Or like, get it all on Dropbox later and be like, oh, my God, the aperture like whatever.
KAHRAN: Like I want, you know, I want the camera quality. And I say, just so happens, we're ambassadors for Canon. And so they— we worked with someone there that, you know, we figured out. I was like, I knew that we already had the software, I just had to make sure that it could work. And so we kind of talked with them, and they're like, yeah, I think this could work. And so—
AMANDA: Wow!
KAHRAN: —we did a trial run, you know, the day before, and I was like, okay, it's looking pretty good. I was super nervous, though because the body artist, even though he's in Ghana, he was from a different part of Ghana. So he had to fly in for the shoot. And so I was like, oh my gosh, like this has to go right.
JULIA: So many pieces had to like connect together at the right time.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah, like this has to go right, right? And little boy had never modeled before, it was my sister's neighbor, right?
AMANDA: Really?! I was gonna say his hand modeling is like incredible.
KAHRAN: Yeah, right. But like that was his first time ever modeling, and so my assistant we were you know, kind of moving his arms to where we needed it to be and you know, it just worked out. So yeah, I was— I was so excited about it.
JULIA: That—that's such a cool background stories to those photos.
KAHRAN: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Amazing. Oh my gosh. Another one that I really love from this chapter is the how the zebra got his stripes story.
KAHRAN: Oh my goodness, yes.
JULIA: And your model with Vitiligo.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: It— it's such beautiful both like body art, costuming and it just features a really like—
KAHRAN: Yo—I wouldn't say unique, unique, he's modeling.
JULIA: Yeah, unique model.
KAHRAN: Oh my gosh. Like first of all, like I found him, I think I was— I forgot what I was looking for on Instagram and I just happened to run across, I think his mama only had like four pictures of him on Instagram. But I you know, found—found that picture and I literally like stalked her down. I was like listen, this kid is so unique, like I have to have him in this [42:38] Like he has I forgot the specific name of the type of Vitiligo that he has, but he has a specific type of Vitiligo. His mom told me that usually with Vitiligo, people start with a few spots and then it moves throughout their body through you know, throughout their lifetime. He actually was born with it that way and it is symmetrically like on one side of his body only. And it literally—everyone asked if it's a painting like it literally looks like a painting.
AMANDA: It does.
KAHRAN: It's on like one side of his chest, one side of his face like it is the most unique thing that I've ever seen in my life. And I think it's just absolutely gorgeous, right? And so I knew that he would be perfect for the story. I wanted that to be the centerpiece. I wanted to obviously showcase his beautiful you know, Vitiligo stripes, but then also, you know, with the story how the zebra got it stripes, you know, have somebody on one side with the zebra as well. So we had a lot of fun with that. It was just fun for us, fun for him. We body artist come in and— and do the— the zebra stripes. But yeah, it was— it was just a really fun story.
JULIA: Yeah. And I love that there's that very striking image of him with the fire in the one hand as well, which is really cool.
KAHRAN: Yes. [43;45] burns his blood, right?
JULIA: Yep, yep.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: For the process of this, did you choose the story and then, like, seek out a model with vitiligo? Or did you have the model in mind first?
KAHRAN: Yeah. So I knew that I had the model first. And then we, you know, we're kind of looking through the stories and it was like a perfect fit, right? Like this would kind of go perfectly with what we envision for the imagery. So it was usually you know, we had the stories in mind first, and then we figured out the model, but in this particular case, already had the model and I knew that, you know, we wanted to do something unique with him.
JULIA: That's amazing. I love that so much. One of the stories in this chapter is actually one— like a few of these I had heard before or like just had learned about through research and stuff like that. But one of them that I hadn't heard before was the legend of Princess [44:37]
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: Oh, my gosh, that's such an incredible story. For the listeners, can you give them a little tease about what the story is about?
KAHRAN: Yes, that's one of my favorites. So this story, the little girl, Princess [44:49], she wants to again, there's like a big event, I guess, like a sporting event, basically, where, you know, folks are trying to be the kings. I don't know what you call it like there assisting or something like that, right? They are wanting to compete, you know, run this race. And then they have to, I guess, do some spear fighting and some other things. And the king is telling her that she can't participate because she's a girl, right? And that only the boys can do it. And so she basically gets into this headdress to pretend like she's a boy-to-be— to participate. And she starts running the race, and her headdress falls off. And they realize that she's a girl. And the girls in the crowd basically, like erupt and cheer, and they, like, start cheering her on, and she actually ends up winning the race and winning the contest and goes on, obviously to, you know, win the spot. But, you know, it was just kind of a story showing that you know, girls can do it too kind of thing, you know. Kind of a girl, female empowerment story, but I love that, you know, she was just strong and willed, you know, strong-willed and, you know, didn't let that stop her. She was just like, listen, I can do whatever the boys can do, right? So yeah, I love that—that story.
JULIA: It's a very good one. And I love the retelling of it, and the artistry of it, it's—it's really, really awesome.
KAHRAN: Thank you.
JULIA: I also just want more in this part of this story and I really like not only that you guys were doing kind of stories like African traditional African folklore, but also telling kind of African American and African Diaspora stories. And the fact that you featured John Henry was something that I was really excited to see.
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: Because like, when you open up a guest, like a fairy tale book, you're not expecting to see something that it's very like—
KAHRAN: Like a John Henry, right?
JULIA: Like a John Henry, right? And so that was a really fun and interesting choice to include in the book.
KAHRAN: And I just felt like it was such a classic story in terms of African American folklore. But it's not heard enough for you know what I mean.
JULIA: Yeah.
KAHRAN: And for that one, that was actually the only story that we didn't do a new shoot for. So the interesting thing was when we were coming up with like, the mood board, and you know what we wanted to do, we realized that we had actually already done a similar shoot. I can't even remember what he wanted to do eventually. Yeah, Legos and Minecraft. Yes, Minecraft, that's what it was.
AMANDA: Yes. Yeah.
KAHRAN: And I was like—it was like the exact imagery that we were wanting for this John Henry story. So we took the—the original images were just on like a studio backdrop. And so we basically, you know, kind of merge it together with other imagery in Photoshop to, you know, give it a background and give it imagery, give it a setting. And it was exactly what we were looking for from the John Henry story. So that was like our first one we were like, oh, check done, you know.
JULIA: Alright, we're all good.
KAHRAN: Yes. But it actually like, I love those images. I think that it was just like, even though it's like a Minecraft, you know, [47;44] but it was yes. And he actually—the boy actually is model he has autism. But it was, you know, kind of a perfect fit for— for the story. And you know, I love that we were able to include him in the book as well.
AMANDA: That's one of the most like formative cartoons for me. Is that like the—the cartoon version of—of John Henry?
KAHRAN: Yes.
AMANDA: And I thought that model was such a perfect like, I would never have guessed that that was not a purpose-made shoot for this story, so perfect.
KAHRAN: Yeah, it was so perfect. Like, I mean, we were literally trying to come up with other images. And I was like, literally like this is— this is everything that we were wondering right here.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah!
KAHRAN: So yeah.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: So we'll close out I guess with a little bit more about the original stories that you guys wrote for the book and decided to shoot for it. In choosing what those stories were, what was the kind of like ethos or choices that you were making that you wanted to share? Because obviously, this is a book about fairy tales, you know. You want to make sure that you're getting kind of lessons across, right?
KAHRAN: Yes.
JULIA: What inspired you in terms of lessons that you want to pass on to these?
KAHRAN: I think really more so than the lessons, I think it was imagery around them, right? Like, I want it, I felt like what's kind of missing from the traditional stories, right? Like I—like I said, the princess with no hair, I felt like all the princesses had long hair, or they had, you know, a lot of hair. We also wanted to think what else we had in there, the little girl that had cerebral palsy, right? And we wanted to highlight kids with disabilities. And so it was really more so of, you know, what else was missing from that story? You know, we also obviously want it to do that story, the wish with the cowboy, you know, something that just really spoke to, you know, little boys, because we felt like, you know, obviously, it's a lot of the stories lean more towards the girls. And so it was just kind of looking at what else is missing, and then obviously, what were some of the things that we really wanted to do in terms of imagery that we hadn't done. So like the Candyland story, you know, and then we wanted to do something that had more of like an afro futuristic feel. So I'm trying to remember the name of the story, but there was one girl in there that had it was like a futuristic type of story so.
AMANDA: And the skateboarding Princess, which is incredible.
KAHRAN: Yes, yes.
REGIS: Yeah.
KAHRAN: That's what it is. So yeah, we were trying to figure out how we could you know, incorporate some of those things that were missing from the traditional stories in the African folklore.
JULIA: Amazing. Well, Kahran, Reg, thank you so, so much for coming on.
KAHRAN: Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you, guys, so much for having us, this is amazing.
JULIA: Yes. Can you tell people where they can find Crowned and find your work online?
KAHRAN: So Crowned is available wherever books are sold. You can visit creativesoulphoto.com/crowned to learn more about it, that's Crown with an ed. And our website is creativesoulphoto.com. And you can find us on any of the social media channels @creativesoulphoto.
JULIA: Amazing. Thank you so so much. And remember listeners, next time you are picturing yourself as a prince or princess, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!