Episode 45: Creepy Kids
/Let’s face it - from Irish changelings to the creepy twins in the Shining, humankind has found kids to be super creepy for generations. This week, Julia rounds up the creepiest stories about the spookiest kids to start off #creeptober, while Amanda shows her hand at how few horror movies she’s seen. We get inventive with urban legend backstories, quiz each other on classic horror movies, reminisce about creepy kids from our past.
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Transcripts
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 45: Creepy Kids. I think we deliver on this premise, Julia.
JS: Yeah. I think it's actually the perfect way to start off #creeptober.
AM: Creeptober. Oh, we are so excited. And, actually, that reminds me of my recommendation for this episode, which is #Inktober. People, apparently, it's like NaNoWriMo, but for artists. And they are putting out an illustration, a piece of art every single day. We have had such beautiful Spirits fanart come in already. And I just want to like totally shamelessly ask everybody to make us lots of Inktober drawings.
JS: I think you already did that just by mentioning it.
AM: I'm, I'm in. I also want to mention our new patrons, who we love. So, when we're going weekly, we have switched some of our tiers around. We have made our tiers cheaper, but we are also charging more frequently. So anyway, there was a bit of a like housework situation with our Patreon, and we are just really grateful for everybody reading my long email and, and dealing with that and and for signing up. So, we would love to welcome Kristi, Angelkittie, Jon, Anna, and LouMac. And thanks as always to our supporting producer and legend level patrons. New tier, y’all. Physical merch.
JS: It is – it is a really exciting tier. I'm excited to send you guys your first Spirits-themed gift box. It’s going to be amazing.
AM: It's like a – like a culture club. We're gonna have books, movies, maybe some of those cool skull-tipped like olive spears for drinks. Oh, my gosh, I have so many ideas.
JS: Should we list our beautiful supporting patrons, who are definitely not creepy children.
AM: If I didn't, it would feel weird. So, thank you so much to LeeAnn, Cammie, Cassie, Dylan, Chandra, Catherine, Philip, Shannon, Julie, Sara, MCF, Katie, ddlgfordummies – if you have a first name, let us know so I can thank you that way – Phil Fresh, Debra, and Charles.
JS: You guys are definitely not creepy children. You are the cool 1950s British paintings of our hearts?
AM: Yes. It'll make sense. That's my favorite story from this episode I think. Anyway.
JS: Good.
AM: And, finally, we would love to thank StoryBlocks for sponsoring again this week. So, they are a provider of high quality stock images for a fraction of the cost than you would do to buy these individually from professional sites. You can start downloading anything on their site. They have like thousands and thousands of things at storyblocks.com/spirits during the free trial.
JS: Guys, we're so excited that you're here with us as we go weekly.
AM: Weekly.
JS: So, without further ado, let's get to the episode, Amanda.
AM: All right, let's do Spirits Podcast Episode 45: Creepy Kids.
Intro Music
JS: Hey, Amanda.
AM: Your eyes are scary. What?
JS: I'm so sorry.
AM: Like what?
JS: Let's start that again. I didn't want like a, "Hey, Amanda. Hey, Julia."
AM: No. Let's keep going. This is what it is.
JS: No. Okay.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, we're just gonna keep --
AM: No. We'll roll with this.
JS: Okay. So, I have a story from this weekend.
AM: Okay.
JS: Because Jake and I – the weekend that we're recording this, Stephen King's IT just came out in theaters.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I went to go see it with Jake, because his favorite thing is to see horror movies. And my favorite thing is to cower while we watch horror movies.
AM: I super thought you're going to talk about your recent engagement. Congratulations.
JS: Oh, well, thank you.
AM: And then go into a lovely love story, but it sounds like we're going the opposite direction
JS: We're going the opposite direction.
AM: Cool. Cool. Cool.
JS: We're gonna talking about like murder and stuff.
AM: Let's do it.
JS: So, going to see IT was kind of a big deal for me, because one of my biggest fears of all time is clowns.
AM: Yep, as it should be. Logically.
JS: And I completely blame it on accidentally watching the first Stephen King's IT with Tim Curry when I was four.
AM: Nice.
JS: Because I was like, "Oh, it's a clown," and then watched all of – just all of the murder.
AM: Wait. Who gave you control over a remote at four?
JS: My parents. I was a – I was a latchkey kid, my friend.
AM: You really were.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I was the opposite of a latchkey kid, which is like --
JS: My parents would nap when I get home. So, it’s just me in front of a TV.
AM: Your dad did work a night shift for a lot of our childhood.
JS: That is true.
AM: So, it made sense.
JS: It was making me think of what tropes in horror movies really scare the crap out of me. And I kind of wanted to know what recurring themes and horror really get to you.
AM: I am definitely not a fan of the like apparition in the mirror.
JS: Okay.
AM: That really freaks me out.
JS: That's a classic.
AM: Yeah. And just like – just like a flash – a flash and a thing that shouldn't have flashes in it like --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- like the person behind the window and the person that like – isn't there a movie where like babysitter or like otherwise sexy young person is like --
JS: That's every movie.
AM: -- vacuuming? It's like vacuuming a living room or something, and then there's like a slasher outside the door. And maybe that's Scream.
JS: Yeah, maybe? It might be Halloween.
AM: What is the one with like the scream painting mask?
JS: That’s Scream.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Have you not seen Scream?
AM: No.
JS: We're gonna have to fix that. It's a good one. It's actually a very, very good movie.
AM: Anyway, I don't like that. I don't like when they're like living their daily lives in the – in the horror and the danger is imminent. And you just can't tell them.
JS: Yeah. I completely feel that. Another one of mine, because it kind of segues into the story that I wanna tell here, is the horror movie that like it's a trope that you see in a lot of stuff. And that is the Creepy Child.
AM: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a good one.
JS: The Creepy Child is the worst one in my opinion.
AM: Bailey and Austin are my youngest siblings, who are twins.
JS: Yeah. You have twins.
AM: And they love to – whenever they visit either of our parents, to like look at childhood photos and snap me particularly creepy ones of themselves.
JS: Cool. Cool. Cool.
AM: Bailey is a superstar at this. So, she will create – she will snap me photos of herself looking so fucking creepy. And, as the like, like the cutest and youngest child born in the age of digital cameras, the twins have way more photographic evidence than Connor and I ever did, which, you know, is good.
JS: Did they ever go through the creepy talking at the same time phase?
AM: No. But they did like – as babies if, if one of them was sick, neither of them would sleep or they actually wouldn't sleep in separate cribs until they were like pretty – until they were like nine or 10 months old. Like they had to be touching. And it was really adorable. Like, like their foot --
JS: It's, it’s --
AM: -- or their elbow would like touch each other's hand.
JS: It is really cute if you have the right music playing and really creepy if you don't have the right music playing.
AM: There have been lots of situations where one of them like fell down or was hurt or Bailey used to have epilepsy so she would like have a seizure and Austin would just like get super disturbed from a different room. So, there, there are some – there are some twin mojo going on.
JS: There's some twin magic happening.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: Oh, god. Yeah. This episode is not about twins. It's just about creepy children in general.
AM: Anyway, my siblings are lovely. I love them. They're not creepy at all, but, in photo – in photographs, you know, you can get there.
JS: No, no, no. All, all like small children are creepy at some point in their lives.
AM: Oh, for sure.
JS: For sure, 100 percent.
AM: Just staring at you. Anyway.
JS: Yeah. And like, to be honest, this is something that we, as humanity, have kind of understood for a very – a very long time. And, so, creepy children is a thing that dates back a decent amount.
AM: Is this episode about creepy children?
JS: Yeah, it is.
AM: Oh, my god. I love it.
JS: So, we're actually going to start off with the original creepy child, which is the Changeling.
AM: Oh, I thought you were going to say, “Man-baby Jesus as depicted in Renaissance paintings.”
JS: No.
AM: You know the versions of Jesus that are --
JS: Yes. Weird.
AM: -- just like a man's body --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- the baby's head that are just very small in the arms of Madonna?
JS: Yes. It’s the Tom Haverford baby. I feel so bad talking about that.
AM: Oh, my gosh, changeling. Yes. I --
JS: I know it’s one of your favorites.
AM: I’m Irish and I know about changelings. And I would love to hear your take on them.
JS: Well, I'm gonna tell people, who don't know about changelings, what changelings are first thing’s first.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: So, we're talking about a child that is believed to be a fairy child left in the place of a human child that was stolen by fairies.
AM: Yes.
JS: It's a lot of like going back and forth. But --
AM: Yes. So, it's basically like musical chairs. Fairy comes in, steals a human baby, leaves a fairy baby.
JS: Yes.
AM: Sometimes, it's like a baby made out of rocks and sticks that --
JS: Sometimes.
AM: -- sometimes like dissipates into nothingness later. But it's like a false baby put there when the human baby is taken.
JS: An example of that too is the aswang when we talked about that in our second --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- third episode.
AM: Yes.
JS: Third episode. And they would just like eat – come, eat baby, and then leave rock that looks like a baby.
AM: Yeah. It's one of our least downloaded episodes because people don't understand the title, but one of the most commented upon episodes. So, --
JS: 100 percent.
AM: So, if you're catching up on our back catalogue or, or listen to us after Episode Three, definitely go back and check out the aswang.
JS: The aswang is a fun one. So, human children were swept away to act as servants for fairies or because the fairies were attracted to the baby's beauty. Usually, they were blondes because, you know, Ireland like blondes I guess.
AM: Unusual and like of the fay. Like light eyes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That kind of stuff.
JS: Or because the family somehow slighted or insulted the fairy folk.
AM: There's lots of stuff in Ireland about just quietly trying to make sure that the powers that be don't notice you. And that could be a Catholic thing. That could be lived under centuries of British rule thing. But it is very common to just like quietly appease the fairies at all times by leaving up bread or milk, or not doing things that offend them, or making offerings because you just don't want them to come in and steal your baby.
JS: I mean that's the dream right? Tempt no one to steal your baby.
AM: I guess that is the dream, Jules.
JS: I mean it’s a very simple dream, but it's one that we should all strive for.
AM: I'm a woman of simple tastes. Don't steal my babies, f airies.
JS: Don't steal my babies. So, it was said that human milk was necessary for fairy children to survive.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Which, you know, kind of makes sense. The source for changelings like from a historical folklore – folklorist lens is actually really sinister. So, historians connect memories of the inhabitants of various regions of Europe that had to be driven into hiding by invaders to fairy stories and changeling stories.
AM: Oh, wow.
JS: Because Changelings actually occurred, according to these folklorists, when the hiding people would exchange their own sickly children for the healthy children of the invaders.
AM: Shit.
JS: Isn’t that creepy as hell?
AM: That is really creepy.
JS: Yeah. Just like – I don’t know. Don't, don't swap your baby just because it's sick with someone else's. That seems wrong.
AM: And, speaking of really interesting modern takes on the changeling myth, I actually read a really interesting theory around changelings babies. So, there's ways to like identify if your baby's a changeling or not. So, they can cry too much or too little. They could be very like handsome. Like you said blond or blue eyed or otherwise. Like look different to the family. And there's other like behaviors. Like they wouldn't necessarily – if it was Changeling, maybe they don't laugh or don't make eye contact or, otherwise, like act unlike babies that you would think are typical.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, one of the theories is that developmentally disabled babies or neurodivergent babies, who displayed behaviors that are different to what might be expected, you know, of like most babies that families will be used to, might be kind of categorized as otherworldly. And that that could potentially be one of the reasons that, you know, a child's behavior – if you don't understand why your child is behaving differently to how you expect, changeling – you know, changeling status might be a thing that comes to your mind.
JS: Yeah. I think that's definitely a case. And a lot of historians do link the concept of changelings with the – with, you know, developmental disorders, or autism, or something like that. And it's really, really an interesting part of history. And another example of the way that the human mind works when --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- we’re trying to explain things that are unexplainable. You know, my favorite thing about humanity and mythology.
AM: I know. And I've seen a lot of things like that around queerness and gender queerness also, where, you know, I – it can be a bad thing, right? Where like difference is, is stigmatized and described as otherworldly. Or, you know, not human. Like there are lots of ways in which that narrative can be bad and really othering. But I don't know like as a – as a queer person reading through myths over time, I'm like, “Fuck yeah.” Like, “Fuck yeah,” which is, you know --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- like, ‘Fuck you, people.” You know, that, that just behave differently. And there is a kind of like badass, mystical, like outside of this world realm, magical explanation for all that stuff.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like I think there is --
JS: For the freaking society kind of situations.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like there is empowerment to be found there --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- in that narrative if you are someone affected by it and that's what you want to view it as.
JS: Yeah. That's, that's our favorite thing. It really is.
AM: I love it like history is yours for the taking.
JS: 100 percent. Just – you know, if you're not a straight white dude, who has already taken history, history is yours for the taking [Inaudible 12:27].
AM: Right. History has already been there, and they took it.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, and, now, we – the rest of us are realizing like, “Oh, oh, right.”
JS: There's parts for us too.
AM: Exactly. Yeah.
JS: It's nice that we finally get it.
AM: To history.
JS: Yay. So, let's talk about a couple of other versions of changelings, just because we --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- already talked about Ireland a little bit. Martin Luther in Germany because like, “Hey, Oh, Protestant Reformation.”
AM: 99 theses, what's up?
JS: Believed that a changeling was a child of the devil without a human soul.
AM: Uhmm. Uhmm.
JS: Uhmm. Uhmm. I caught you while you're drinking a little whiskey there.
AM: Go on.
JS: The Germans also believed that you could reveal a changeling for what it was, by trying to burn the changeling in an oven. Bad.
AM: Yikes.
JS: Whipping the changelings. Bad.
AM: No.
JS: Or, brewing and cooking in eggshells, which is a weird but a better option than the first two. Ireland also had that same concept, where, if you put a changeling in a fire, it would cause it to jump up the chimney and return the human child, which just don't – just don't do that.
AM: Just don't. That's a --
JS: That's a bad option if your child is not a changeling.
AM: That's a nuclear option. And like, “Isn't it better to live with a changeling than to potentially kill a baby?”
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, like I feel like I would just do that.
JS: Let us not do the infantcide.
AM: It's like, when you're in a restaurant and someone delivers you the wrong meal, and you're like, “Well, this is my life now. Like I would much rather eat this wrong meal and suffer through the social situation of like informing this poor server, who had nothing to do with it, that this is the wrong meal.” Like I'm just – I'm just – I live here now.
JS: How many times have you done that?
AM: A bunch.
JS: Oh, okay.
AM: A bunch. Yeah. I mean I'm an unnaturally assertive person, but especially in different countries, where like I don't know enough of the language to like describe myself properly, I'll just be like, “Well, I'm just living with this now. And I feel like I would find myself with like a 25 year old child, because I just did not want to see if they were changeling or not.”
JS: Okay. Wow. That is – that's a bold move, my friend.
AM: I don't know. I'm just thinking through the bit, Julia.
JS: If that --
AM: I'm playing with you in space.
JS: But like it kind of is the server's fault. And I've, I’ve done serving before.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But, if he delivered you the wrong plate, they're the one who took your order in the first place.
AM: Okay. But like it's not – they're not like being malicious against me.
JS: No, of f course, not.
AM: Like it's just this is the situation that we’re all in together.
JS: But human beings make mistakes, and he – just gently remind him and be like, “Actually, I did order the chicken parm and not the veal.”
AM: Yeah. No. And Julia and I, being New Yorkers and like assertive badass women on top of that, we always correct gently and lovingly.
JS: Yes.
AM: And like we end up bonding from the experience.
JS: I'm always the nicest person into servers, because I did serving myself.
AM: Oh, yeah. Like we've been there. We know how it feels.
JS: I don't understand people who are mean to servers.
AM: I don't either. Maybe they're changelings.
JS: Maybe.
AM: They can't empathize.
JS: Fuck those people.
AM: Hmm. New theory.
JS: New theory. People who are mean to servers are secretly changelings.
AM: Because they're used to just what? Like an endless bounty of food and wine and ambrosia in like the fay court.
JS: Yeah, pretty much.
AM: Shout out again Holly Black with the Ironside Trilogy. God, we love it. Also, Herbie Brennan, I think is his name, has this Ruler of the Realm and the Fairy Wars maybe. And Purple Emperor I think was the third one in the series. I’m looking over at my shelf.
JS: You were literally really looking up at the shelf.
AM: It's really far away. I can't make it – and like it's in gold leaf. Anyway, those are three excellent fairy books. Also, shout out to the Spirits Book Club, which is currently and always and forever more reading Sabriel.
JS: Everyone is reading Sabriel. I get so many Sabriel tweets.
AM: I made friend of the show, Eric Silver, read Sabriel. He really dug it. He needs Lirael next. And you should return Abhorsen to me, because you're working on it.
JS: Yeah. I read the first two chapters, and then I moved, So --
AM: Keep going.
JS: I know. I know. I know. I have so many --
AM: Worth it.
JS: I just picked up Ancillary Justice, which is by Ann Leckie. And it's amazing. It's a sci-fi one. We're getting really off track here. That's my recommendation corner. See you later. Bye.
AM: No. Please do. Anyway. But, everybody who has read and loved Sabriel, move on to Lirael. It is my favorite book in that trilogy.
JS: It's good.
AM: Now, a big series. And I love it. And it like shaped me as a person. And it, It started my love of dogs. Like, seriously, go for it.
JS: Okay. Back to changelings for --
AM: Let's do it.
JS: -- a second. So, changeling beliefs lasted in most parts of Ireland until as of late 1895, which is when a woman named Bridget Cleary was killed by her husband, who believed that she was a changeling following what most medical historians believe was a bout of pneumonia.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: So, she had pneumonia. Her husband was like something's wrong with you and just assumed she was a changeling, and then burned her in the fire.
AM: Yikes. And, also, I'm pretty sure my Irish grandpa mentioned changeling at some point. So, I think that's a belief that is at least a sort of cultural or referential thing --
JS: Right.
AM: -- if it's not like prescriptive, your baby might be in danger thing.
JS: Yeah. Like I hope we're not burning babies still to make sure that they're not you know changelings.
AM: No. Morbid fun fact though. Want one?
JS: Yeah, always.
AM: So, the town --
JS: Is this about Ireland and drowning?
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: Okay. Good. Great.
AM: It is. It super is actually. Oh, it's – it might be the worst Ireland drowning story.
JS: Okay, do it. I'm ready for it. I just sat up more on my seat.
AM: So, my grandmother is – her last name was Clancy. And she was from a town outside of Galway,which is on the west coast of Ireland.
JS: Clancy is also your brother's middle name.
AM: It is.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Right. Because you know, Ireland.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, and Galway. You know, Notabene is the best city in Ireland. Fight me. My grandma is from a smaller city outside of there called Tuam, T - U - A - M. And I was lucky enough to visit it. I saw the house outside of where she grew up several years ago when I went to Ireland for the first or second time. And it was – it was frickin lovely. I loved it. However, Tuam made the news several months after I visited, because a mass grave of infants was found where Coram Boy style, a musical Julia and I saw in, in high school and that actually Connor did. His senior year of our drama program, they did Coram Boy.
JS: Oh, yeah, they did.
AM: Which is a musical about infanticide. I don't understand how that happened.
JS: Is that the one with the twins, where they had to like murder of the twins? Or was it a different one?
AM: No. It was like about a – about like a Foundling Hospital.
JS: What was the murder twins one that I'm thinking of then?
AM: Oh, there were twins, and there was murder.
JS: Where they got separated at birth?
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Okay.
AM: Yeah. No. That's the one.
JS: Just checking.
AM: Like the front of the stage was soil, because they had to bury babies in it. Anyway, it's fine. It's a very beautiful musical actually. So, that --
JS: Is it?
AM: It really is. And they had like a – like a children's choir.
JS: Okay.
AM: It was like striking thing about the performance.
JS: Sure.
AM: And, just like an all like boys children choir, it just like gets to the soul in a way that nothing else does. Anyway, point being, there was a mass – a mass grave, where it was supposed to be a place that unwed mothers went to have their babies, and then be adopted. And it just totally was the opposite of that. And, sorry, that was Tuam. And also my grandma. I grew up there. And it's a lovely city.
JS: I am the all teeth emoji right now. Just hah.
AM: I'm the upside down smile.
JS: Okay.
AM: Ireland's great, lol.
JS: Cool. Cool. Cool. Let's move away from Ireland for a second. And let's talk about some changeling myths from non-Europe.
AM: I actually need a refill first.
JS: Okay.
AM: All right. Let's go.
Midroll Music
AM: So, Julia, this week, we are sponsored by StoryBlocks. I think I told you about it last time. What's up StoryBlocks? But they are a stock image, stock video, vectors, textures. People who are like amazing illustrators, like the folks that we see on Twitter recommending, you know, fan art and showing things to us, they need all kinds of stock vectors and textures to get their art done some of the time. And, in addition to all the things that you think of when you think of stock photography, StoryBlocks also provides videos. Like there's all kinds of stuff. And, unlike other sites where you have to download each of them and pay for each of them as you go, you can download whatever you want. You can download hundreds or thousands of things for one annual membership of $149.
JS: See, that seems like a real good bank for your buck.
AM: It does. And it's like I love that, because you don't know what image or vector or texture is going to look the best in your art until you try it, you know. So, this doesn't punish you for like trying a bunch of different things. And we'd actually love to challenge you Spiriters to find the creepy, coolest stock image you can on the StoryBlocks site.
JS: And the coolest part about StoryBlocks is that they're adding stuff all the time. There's always gonna be a new image every time you go there. And it is insanely cool how much stuff they have.
AM: And they have options to buy custom or additional images from artists or artists take home 100 percent of the sale price, which I think is pretty dope.
JS: It is pretty dope.
AM: So, we would love for you guys to go and try out the service. Try to find some cool images to share with us. That's at storyblocks.com/spirits, where you have a free seven-day trial, 400,000 images and stuff. Ah, amazing.
JS: So, thank you so much, StoryBlocks. We hope we can use some of your cool, cool images and videos real soon.
AM: All right. Let's go back to the show.
JS: So, Amanda, now that we've got our refill, I'm gonna take us away from Europe. And we're going to go to Africa instead.
AM: Yay.
JS: To talk about more changelings.
AM: Let's do it.
JS: The first story we're gonna talk about is a story from the Igbo people in eastern Nigeria. The spirit is called an ogbanje, which the term literally means a child who comes and goes.
AM: That sounds right.
JS: It is a evil spirit that will be born into a family and, within a certain amount of time from birth, will deliberately die. It would come back and then repeat the cycle, which causes the family grief.
AM: Oh, no, obviously.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That would suck.
JS: It, it completely sucks. It will just keep repeating the cycle over and over again.
AM: Question. Into the same form --
JS: Family.
AM: -- or reincarnated into new babies.
JS: New babies.
AM: Oh, not great.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's sucks and fuck. Like what a – what a horrible thing is repeated miscarriages or infant deaths. And like, again, I get it. Like human beings have to find a way to describe the indescribable. And like this definitely counts.
JS: Yes. And it is – it's very – it's a very tragic story, which just, you know, I can't imagine going through that. And the spirit will actually do like multiple cycles. I vaguely remember in Things Fall Apart.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's the book that we read in --
AM: Chinua Achebe. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. There was – one of the people in – one of the characters in the book was described as a ogbanje, because it was like the one child that survived after 10 sort of cycles of --
AM: Oh, shit, you're right.
JS: -- miscarriages and infant death and all of that.
AM: Fuck.
JS: I can't remember the character's name, but – I don't remember any of the characters' names actually from that book.It’s been a while since I read it.
AM: Excellent book. It has been eight years. Yikes.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Because we read it --
AM: Yikes.
JS: -- junior year. And that's when I started dating Jake.
AM: Awww.
JS: Awww. So --
AM: Now, back to infant death.
JS: Back to some more infant deaths. So, the Igbo would actually cut – ritualistically, cut the bodies of these children that they suspected to be the spirits, because they would hope that it would not – they – it would stop the spirit from returning.
AM: Whereas he just like ward off.
JS: Right.
AM: Right.
JS: But, if it was done improperly, it would – like – and the Spirit came back, it would show in birthmarks.
AM: Ooh.
JS: On the body.
AM: Yikes.
JS: So, like in spots where they were supposed to have been cut or whatever.
AM: Right.
JS: And it, it explains like, you know, either birth defects or, you know, marks on the body or certain like scars and birthmarks and whatnot.
AM: Yikes. I mean I get it so hard, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And yet it still sucks so much.
JS: Interestingly, the Yoruba, which is another tribe in Africa had a similar term known as Abiku, which translated to "predestined to death" and refers to the spirits of children that would die before the age of 12 and continue to return back to the family.
AM: I mean, as if being a family that experiences, you know, death of children or a child whose siblings had passed or had before you, is hard enough. You know, like this, this really sucks. This really sucks.
JS: Yeah, I know.
AM: There's, there's no two ways about it. But I mean it makes so much sense. Like this kind of thing, if there is a medical issue or nutrition issue, you know, or just a situation in which, unfortunately, this tragedy happens to you again and again, it makes a certain kind of sense that you would – you would try to find a way to describe it.
JS: Yeah, it does.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I don’t know. It's, it's kind of like that story that we covered in the 30 Myths in 30 minutes and in Year Walk --
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: -- with the, the spirit of the unbaptized baby trying to get into the cemetery.
AM: Right.
JS: That's just like – it's super heavy stuff. But it's, it was also the reality of the times. And mythology is always shaped around the reality of the times and the reality of the culture that it comes out of.
AM: And like it is a base instinct in a way that like other base instincts like birth, and love, and grief, and, you know, marriage, and kind of all these things that, that define humanity that are things we've invented for ourselves and shit that we experience just like the shit of real life. Like that is the kind of stuff that myth is made of.
JS: Yeah. It's that cycle of life stuff. If it exists in mankind, we're gonna have stories about it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it kind of sucks. I'm gonna bring us to a lighter note I think, hopefully.
AM: All right.
JS: Because we're gonna fast forward to 1950s England.
AM: It sounds like some shits gonna go down.
JS: Yeah. There's some good shit.
AM: Let's do it.
JS: So, you know how creepy paintings are totally a thing in horror movies?
AM: Oh, for sure.
JS: And just like episodes of Scooby-Doo.
AM: Yes.
JS: Because --
AM: Duh.
JS: -- can, can Amanda list all the Scooby-Doo people for me real quick?
AM: Freddie has an ascot.
JS: Cool.
AM: Velma has a orange sweater.
JS: Okay.
AM: Some other hot lady has purple.
JS: Daphne.
AM: Daphne.
JS: Cool. We're at three.
AM: Shaggy --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- is a stoner.
JS: Yes.
AM: And they have Scooby, right?
JS: Yes.
AM: That's it.
JS: You did good.
AM: And they're in a green van.
JS: You did so good, Amanda.
AM: Oh, thank you, babe.
JS: I’m so proud of you.
AM: That is one thing I did consume
JS: You got four out five right.
AM: That is the – that is the thing I can consumed as a kid.
JS: I like that Daphne was the hot one in purple sweater.
AM: I actually found Velma to be the hottest, because I think she was like, like attainable for me. Like a queer lady thing.
JS: Yeah. She's very hot.
AM: A queer lady thing is like you're never sure if, if you're attraction to somebody is aspirational. Like a thing I want to be or like a thing I want to date. And, so, it's – it was definitely both for me, where she was like slightly rounder with shorter hair and glasses. And I was like, “Oh, okay. Like that, that could be me, but also like she's pretty.” Anyway.
JS: I completely feel you. I was always a Velma girl myself. So --
AM: Identifying with her.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: 100 percent. So, obviously, creepy paintings get bonus points if it's a creepy painting of a child.
AM: Uhmm.
JS: How about if it's a crying child? And how about if the paintings are apparently cursed?
AM: Let's do it.
JS: Okay. So, that's the case actually of the painting known as The Crying Boy.
AM: Okay.
JS: Now, on its own, it isn't a super special painting. It was a mass produced print of a painting by Giovanni Bragolin.
AM: Wait. This, this crying child was so compelling that they mass produce it?
JS: Yes.
AM: I – The other day I saw a kid on the sidewalk with his mom take a lick off an ice cream cone, and then the whole ball fell over comically onto the sidewalk. And I was like, “Wait. Now, I am complicit in this tragedy.” Like I had to witness this. And the poor baby like I, I like ran forward past them so that I wouldn't have to see his poor face like screw up in anger and mourning.
JS: He mourns that Ice cream.
AM: I'm so sick. I work on the same block as an ice cream shop. And, so, unfortunately, I fear that this is gonna be a thing that I see.
JS: Well, summer's almost over. So --
AM: That's true.
JS: That is genuine plus for you.
AM: Summer friends don't stay.
JS: So, painting.
AM: Oh, my god. Yes. No. Crying Child, so popular they had to mass produce it.
JS: The Crying Boy. It’s called The Crying Boy.
AM: Does he have like a lollipop that's broken and he’s crying?
JS: No. It's just – it's just – I will link it in the show notes. It is just a crying child.
AM: Okay.
JS: You can google it. It's just the head of a Crying Boy.
AM: I mean I guess, if you have to like have a subject sit still for a long time and do something, crying, for a baby --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- is pretty plausible.
JS: He's got a little bit of like a bowl cut too.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Yeah. Iit's not great. It's, it's a bad painting. I don't know why. But it was super popular in England during the 1950s.
AM: Oh, my god. I love it.
JS: Now, the height of the rumors about this apparent curse started in September of 1985. Because The Sun, which is like a tabloid newspaper kind of in England, reported that an Essex firefighter claimed that undamaged copies of the painting were frequently found in the ruins of burned down houses. It's amazing, right?
AM: Now, I want my firefighter brother, Austin, to look in fires that he douses, what things are mysteriously untouched by flame.
JS: Even more so, Amanda, these observations became so prominent that firefighters in the area refused to hang the painting in their own homes.
AM: I mean duh.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I mean I guess you just miss out on the fad of the crying child painting. I'm so sorry.
JS: It actually – so, The Sun ran several more articles.
AM: Wait. Was, was there like a multi-level marketing scheme where people would be like representatives of the company that sells the like crying child and like also cosmetics and tupperware and like – you know, like these things where you like are meant to sell it and to put money into and then you lose money.
JS: The Puritan Scheme.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: [Inaudible 29:51].
AM: So, I wonder if there was one of those for --
JS: For this Crying Child painting? I think it's – I think it's like how every college student has a painting that's like a Monet or something or Starry Night in their dorm room.
AM: Yeah, a single Van Gogh and a single Fight Club.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And a single like Pulp Fiction poster.
JS: I think that's just how it was, but in the 1950s, England.
AM: And everyone's dorm floor has to have the like single guitar guy, and the stoner, and the nerd, and the person who can count on band-aids like the mom. That was me.
JS: I was gonna be like, “I don't know anyone who is the person that had band-aids.”
AM: Oh, no. It was me.
JS: I remember the person who had weed on our floor not band-aids though.
AM: I ended up becoming friends with the – with the guitar guy. And so many times he would cut himself or like burn himself making stoner fries at 3:00 in the morning and know that there was band-aids inside my room.
JS: Did he just knock on your door at 3:00 in the morning demanding?
AM: I ended up just putting some in a folder on my door.
JS: That makes sense.
AM: Classic Amanda.
JS: That is the most you statement, because you wouldn't wake up and be bothered by these people at 3:00 in the morning. But you would have band aids readily available for them.
AM: Oh, yeah. I figured out a system. Like, come on, I'm not – I'm not a newborn babe here.
JS: Obviously.
AM: I'm not a changeling. So, wait, what happened to the creepy kid?
JS: Okay. So, The Sun ran several more stories over the next few months. And it ended up culminating in people believing in the curse so much that they organized mass bonfires of the paintings that were sent to the paper by readers.
AM: Man, the British love their bonfires.
JS: You do.
AM: They really do.
JS: It was in November. So, I think that's when bonfire day.
AM: Guy Fawkes Day. Yeah, 5th of November.
JS: So, instead of burning wood and stuff, they burned Crying Boy paintings.
AM: A lot, a lot of the time, the, the British are, are just so steadfastly like medium you know. Like they're just like very average in lots of ways. They're just like so dedicated to being average, but also they are extra in lots of ways.
JS: Okay.
AM: So, so, one example is their tabloids. So, The Sun, for example, like the New York Post or the whatever – Inquirer, things that we have in the US.
JS: Well, The Post and the Inquirer are very different.
AM: I mean The Post is like – is like "real journalism" verging on tabloids.
JS: Cool.
AM: Anyway, they, in England, just show porn. Like they just have topless women in their tabloids. They're just there.
JS: Cool.
AM: They’re topless --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- just in the supermarket or at the – at the like sidewalk newsstand. Like it’s just there and topless. And, so, when I – when I moved to, to England, as a 19-year-old studying abroad, I was like, “Wait. How are these boobs allowed ?” Like I was so --
JS: How are these boobs allowed?
AM: I was so surprised that there were just breasts and also triangular packaged sandwiches, which are a great idea, and we need more in America. Thank you, Brit. Anyway, that's my England newsstand rant of the day.
JS: Okay. You feel – you feel good. Got that off your chest now?
AM: I feel great, Julia.
JS: Okay. So, I wanna finish out the story of the Crying Boy with the fact that there was no specific reason given as to why this particular painting was cursed. So, I figured why don't we come up with our own backstory about this Crying Boy and why he's burning down houses.
AM: Oh, my god. Yes.
JS: Let's do it up. Give it to me.
AM: His nanny scalded his warm milk before bedtime.
JS: Okay. And that's why he burns down houses.
AM: Yes.
JS: You gotta give me a little bit more than that. Come on. Give me, give me a --
AM: Well, what do you think?
JS: -- tragic backstory, goddamnit?
AM: I don’t want it to be tragic. I want to be mundane.
JS: No. I want it to be tragic. Make it as extra as the tabloids.
AM: The, the like Christmas hearth fire was not warm enough for him and, so, things have to be warm forever as a house fire.
JS: Okay. Now, I'm coming up with a better one.
AM: I'm three whiskies in. Give me a break.
JS: I'm gonna go with he was the – you know, the non-favorite child of the family. And, on Christmas Eve, one day, they all went to a party and they left him behind without any special care or something.
AM: Home Alone style?
JS: Yeah. Home Alone style.
AM: Okay. Okay.
JS: They forgot him.
AM: Some --
JS: They forgot him in a hotel.
AM: Macaulay Culkin or whatever his name is. Great.
JS: Macaulay Culkin.
AM: Yeah.
JS: What was that? You want to go one more time? This is your Sigourney Weaver.
AM: No, I don't. Sigourney Weaver
JS: You suck. I hate you.
AM: Oh, beautiful.
JS: Okay. So, they leave him home. And he accidentally burns down the house and burns alive inside of.
AM: His evil stepmother beats him secretly when his dad isn't looking.
JS: Okay.
AM: Or he discovers Bertha Mason in the attic.
JS: That's, that's a solid one.
AM: And Rochester is like he does just brooding in a study, and then the house burns down.
JS: If we're making Home Alone references, Rochester is Tim Curry as the like not Butler but the dude – the concierge.
AM: What?
JS: Have you not seen Home Alone 2.
AM: No.
JS: He's, he's stuck in Manhattan?
AM: Wait, which – Hold on. Pause. Is this – is this the Tim something that is the Santa Clause or is this the Tim something that's in Rocky Horror?
JS: What, what is happening right now?
AM: You said Tim something. Tim Allen or Tim the other one.
JS: I said Tim Curry.
AM: Tim Curry the better one, the better one, the better one. Don't worry. I know that he's better. Julia is crying.
JS: I’m in actual fetal position. What are you doing to me?
AM: Oh, you bring creepy kids into my life Julia, I respond with my dumb creepiness.
JS: Oh, Amanda, no. Amanda, no.
AM: So, Tim Allen.
JS: No, Tim Curry.
AM: Okay. Tim Curry. Tim Curry.
JS: Tim Curry also tying it back to our intro played IT in the original mini series on television.
AM: Is IT a clown?
JS: Yes.
AM: Cool.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Cool.
JS: Have you never seen pictures of Tim Curry as IT?
AM: No.
JS: Like horrifying.
AM: I don't want to.
JS: That's why I'm scared of clowns. I'll show it to you later.
AM: No.
JS: Yes.
AM: Please don't.
JS: Okay.
AM: I want Tim Curry to always just be in Rocky Horror.
JS: Oh, god. Okay. We got to move on or else I'm just gonna think about Tim Curry for the rest of this fucking episode. I want to do that. You know what I love, Amanda?
AM: Mmm?
JS: You know I love a good creepy urban legend from Japan.
AM: Oh, my god. Fuck yes. We should have a spin off podcast of creepy urban legends from Japan. Fuck.
JS: Let's just tell a quick one real quick. So, this story is pretty similar to Bloody Mary. It's one of those, you know, Japanese school children will say it and do it, and, you know, creep each other out.
AM: Yes.
JS: This is called a Hanako-san. And she is a spirit of a young girl who haunts school bathrooms and only appears when someone calls her name.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, what you got to do --
AM: Moaning Myrtle. Got it, but the opposite.
JS: Yeah. It's almost exactly.
AM: Where she doesn't just like constantly talk. You have to like summoning her.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Good.
JS: So, her origins go back a decent amount, especially for an urban legend. Usually, those are pretty recent.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But it's said that she was killed in a bathroom during an air raid during World War II.
AM: No.
JS: So, though some stories kind of say – they have different versions like all urban legends.
AM: Sure.
JS: She was either killed by a crazed parent or a stranger that was, you know, in the school. Whatever.
AM: But killed by a person and not by like the air raid.
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay.
JS: But the point is she died in the bathroom. So, we got to --
AM: Oh, oh.
JS: We got to hit up these bathrooms if we want to find her.
AM: God, if I have to die in a haunted place, just make it like the New York Public Library. Make it the Met. Make it somewhere good.
JS: Make it the New York Public Library like the beginning of Ghostbusters. So, if you want to call Hanako, what you gotta do is you have to go to the third stall in the girls bathroom on the third floor and knock three times.
AM: Of where? Just wherever you are?
JS: At any – at any school.
AM: Okay.
JS: It has to be at a school, Amanda. God, it's a girl's bathroom.
AM: It's like, on the first day of,of school in high school, you tell the freshmen that they're – that they’re – whatever – lunchtime orientation is in the pool.
JS: Yes.
AM: On the fourth floor.
JS: Yes.
AM: Which we didn't have.
JS: Yeah. We – did we even have three floors. Yeah. We have three floors.
AM: We have three. We have three.
JS: Okay. So, what you have to do is you have to ask, “Are you there Hanako-san?” To which, you should hear a voice answer, “I'm here.” If you hear that and enter the stall, you should see a small girl in a red skirt.
AM: No.
JS: And like that's it. She's just there.
AM: No.
JS: And then you blink and she disappears.
AM: No.
JS: That, that's the scary part.
AM: I mean --
JS: She’s – that she’s there.
AM: -- children that apparate and disapparate. No.
JS: Okay. This, of course, like any urban legend is going to have a few variations. In some versions, a white hand appears outside the stall or it's a bloodstained hand. Up to you really I guess. In my favorite version, which comes from the Yamagata prefecture, if one enters the stall after calling Hanako-san and getting a response, they will be eaten by a three-headed lizard that mimicked the girl's voice.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: That's my favorite.
AM: That's just so good.
JS: Yeah. I'm all about the lizard, people.
AM: Like one go for your head, and then one for each of your arms.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Fuck yeah.
JS: That’d be a good D&D character, three headed lizard.
AM: If we were – if we were a three-headed creature, Julia, who would be the third head?
JS: I guess Eric.
AM: I guess Eric. I guess Eric.
JS: You know, that would make the most sense.
AM: I guess so. I guess so.
JS: As we know from our adorable photo that someone drew – I'm forgetting the person's name, but it's on our Instagram.
AM: Yeah, it's so cute.
JS: And it's great.
AM: It's also Schneider's profile picture right now.
JS: Yes.
AM: Suck it.
JS: And you and Eric Silver use it as a meme in our groups – group text.
AM: Yeah. So, in, in this beautiful fan art, which we will link in the description. Julia just looks so sultry. She looks like she's currently seducing an older man.
JS: Hey.
AM: And, so, so, Eric Silver and I have cropped that image to show just Julia's face.
JS: I hate you so much.
AM: And we, we put it in our group text as a reaction all the time. Now, I just need a GIF of you winking.That would really just, just finished my life. So, y'all if you have GIF skills, if you're able to make a GIF out of an image, please tweet me @shessomickey and I will send you the Julia face.
JS: I'm pouting right now.
AM: I love you.
JS: Aha.
AM: I'm your maid of honor, Julia.
JS: Sure.
AM: I love you.
JS: I haven't even asked you yet.
AM: Pssshh. I'm, I'm conscripting myself.
JS: Okay. Cool. Sounds good.
AM: And what happens with this bathroom myth?
JS: That's it.
AM: That's it.
JS: Yeah. That's it.
AM: She just eats you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Cool.
JS: If she's a lizard, she just eats you.
AM: What is her – what is her motivation? I need to know her character backstory.
JS: I don’t know. Urban legends don’t always have a character backstory. I'm sorry.
AM: But I want to know.
JS: There are just things that – do you want to come up with one like we came up with with the crying boy --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- which you failed blatantly at?
AM: Julia, I tried my best. That’s all that matters. As every gym teacher I've ever had told, all that matters is that you try.
JS: It's so true though.
AM: Until we got too rouchy in our junior year, where, again, we were in a super intense theater program. We did like 20 or 30 hours a week of work in the theater program. And, so, we had first period gym one year. And our, our like Puerto Rican surfer bro lovely gym teacher like got me. And, when we did electives in one quarter, like some people did football, some did volleyball, some did weights. He was like, “You guys can meditate if you want.” And, so, I joined --
JS: I’d lay that.
AM: -- 10 other drama kids in "meditation and yoga,” which was actually us napping in the like screening room from the wrestling team on like wrestling mats.
JS: Okay. Amanda, we're gonna hit up our last creepy child, which I feel as though is probably the most prominent understanding of the creepy child.
AM: Bring it.
JS: And that is the black-eyed child.
AM: Do it.
JS: And, so, this is a theme that probably goes back further, but it's just so permeated into our culture. But really the concept to the black-eyed children really only came into prominence during the late 1990s.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, these are paranormal beings that are usually children either between the age of six and 16, which seems a little old for me but like the solid six to 11 is probably more accurate.
AM: Okay. You look like a young 15.
JS: Yeah, I guess so.
AM: I get it.
JS: So, these children are – have a distinctive pale skin.
JS: Okay.
JS: And just black eyes.
AM: Yikes.
JS: Like no, no pupil – like all pupils. All the whites just – it's all black.
AM: Ah. No good.
JS: No, not good at all.
AM: No good.
JS: But I feel as though that's, that is quite the trope now. If you go and watch any supernatural show, if you watch the show supernatural, if you really just watch anything with demon possession or ghosts and stuff, there's gonna be a black-eyed child somewhere in there.
AM: Yeah. My coworker’s adorable tiny Italian greyhound, who is my favorite new coworker. Her name is Pixel. She's amazing.
JS: I love that name.
AM: Instagram @shessomickey and Snapchat, you will find me. Anyway, but her eyes are so gigantic and her face that she looks like all pupil all the time. And I'm like, “Oh, are you a demon? No, you're an adorable greyhound.”
JS: I think all dogs – you don't see really are the whites of a dog's eyes.
AM: Most of the time.
JS: Yeah. Now, I'm just thinking about demonically possessed dogs. That's not cool.
AM: What would they – what would they do? What would they – what, what would be their infernal purpose?
JS: Murder people, because dogs can murder people.
AM: I mean is that it? Or, is it just like undermining your life somehow in an interesting way?
JS: Like the dog eats your taxes so you get like the IRS comes after you.
AM: The dog pees on your passport. So, you have to have – do like the two-document authentication at the DMV.
JS: Oh, fuck that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's the worst.
AM: Yeah. No. No, the worst.
JS: Okay. Let's focus on the stories of the black-eyed child.
AM: Okay. Wait. Black-eyed child. Okay. Go.
JS: So, stories surrounding black-eyed children, usually, are ones where they are hitchhiking or panhandling.
AM: Mmm.
JS: Or, even creepier in my opinion, showing up at the doorsteps of residential homes
AM: Yeah. No, no good.
JS: Just I don't wanna see a child on my doorstep especially – I don't want to see a child on my doorstep if they're selling candy bars, much less if they have black eyes and are like demons.
AM: The, the ranking of creepy child – of creepy, creepy like solicitation behavior --
JS: Go for it.
AM: -- is like one squeegee man, right, from our childhood in ‘90s New York.
JS: Okay
AM: Okay. Two, a like the subway Mariachi band. Three, at your doorstep, [Inaudible 44:38] selling candy for like in person in a park. That's the like a solicitation creepiness scale in my opinion.
JS: So, squeegee is low or high?
AM: High. Because you're like, in your car sitting at a red light, someone walks up to you start squeegeeing your windshield and expects money for it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: No. Bad.
JS: That's not great.
AM: I can't move. I can't move. I can't get away.
JS: Like, legally, I can't get away.
AM: Yeah. And like same in the subway. Like, like you're, you're playing your guitar in my face or – and/or like show timing, like breakdancing right in front of me, I can't go anywhere. We're all in this car together.
JS: Yeah.
AM: We gotta figure it out.
JS: At least, I can ignore you if you come – if you ring my doorbell.
AM: Right.
JS: Like --
AM: Or, like in a supermarket or like on the sidewalk. Like you can – you can figure it out, you know.
JS: Jake and I just moved from an apartment to a residential home.
AM: Hey.
JS: And I just realized that I have to now buy candy for Halloween.
AM: Awww.
JS: Because children are actually gonna come to my door.
AM: Yep. Not a problem in my apartment building in Queens, where everybody is old.
JS: My social anxiety is going through the roof at having to deal with children.
AM: You just put it on the stoop.
JS: But then they take it all.
AM: And say please take one look, and then see who's gonna be a future lawbreaker.
JS: The teens come, and they just dump the whole bowl into their suit – not suitcases – their pillowcases. They're all dressed as businessmen and have suitcases.
AM: You know that Jake is gonna really relish scaring children in some way.
JS: Oh, Jake loves that shit.
AM: Yeah. So, he --
JS: That’s his favorite thing.
AM: He can be in charge of the candy, candy distribution.
JS: He's just gonna dress up as Michael Myers from Halloween, and just sit on our stoop, and have children come up to him thinking that he is a statue, and then go off.
AM: Wait. Did Michael Myers – is he the guy who played Austin Powers? That wasn't a silly question.
JS: Yes. But Michael Byers, the character, is different from Mike Myers, the actor.
AM: Really?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Who's Michael Myers?
JS: Michael Myers is the dude who wears the William Shatner mask who murders people on Halloween.
AM: What?
JS: Who attacked Jamie Lee Curtis?
AM: What?
JS: Have you not seen Halloween?
AM: No.
JS: Okay. We're gonna work on that then I guess.
AM: And who has the hockey mask?
JS: That's Jason from Friday the 13th.
AM: Fuck, there's too many.
JS: Yeah, there's a lot. The 80s were a weird time. There's also Leatherface. Can you tell me what Leatherface is from?
AM: Nope.
JS: Can you tell me what Freddie's from?
AM: Nope.
JS: Okay. So, Leatherface.
AM: Is Chucky different from Freddy?
JS: Yes.
AM: Aww.
JS: Very different.
AM: I don't wanna know all these.
JS: Leatherface, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Freddy, Nightmare on Elm Street, attacks you in your dreams.
AM: How does he look like?
JS: Has a knife glove, and has burns all over his face, and whereas a striped sweater.
AM: No.
JS: No. You don't know who I'm talking about?
AM: No.
JS: Or, no, you're not into it?
AM: Neither.
JS: Oh, Amanda. Amanda.
AM: No.
JS: Johnny Depp gets murdered in the first Friday the 13th movie.
AM: I don't wanna see it.
JS: Yes, you do.
AM: No.
AM: Yes. We'll show you. It's fine.
AM: No.
JS: And then Chuck – was Chucky the last one you said?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Chucky is like a doll that's possessed by our murderer.
AM: And then it is a clown.
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Any others I’m missing.
JS: The thing from John Carpenter.
AM: What is the thing?
JS: That is a shapeshifter, alien thing.
AM: It's everything.
JS: It, it does a bunch of different stuff. You remember that episode of X-Files where they're up in the Arctic or something? And there's --
AM: Yes.
JS: Yeah. That's just basically a 30-minute version of John Carpenter's the things.
AM: So then I have to see it. Excellent.
JS: Fair enough. Okay. Where were we?
AM: I don't remember.
JS: I completely forgot. Oh, residential homes. So, we can trace the origin of black-eyed children to a Texas reporter named Brian Bethel.
AM: What did you wrought, Brian? What hath Brian wrought?
JS: He had "a ghost-related mailing list" during the 1990s --
AM: Bring it, Brian.
JS: -- which is amazing. Would sign up for would go back and steal it from him.
AM: Brian, get in touch.
JS: So, Bethel describes two experiences with children in Abilene, Texas during 1996 in this newsletter. And then says he encountered another story similar in Portland, Oregon. So, apparently, this is one of the stories that was an early example of the internet's first few Creepypasta.
AM: Yes.
JS: Which, if you don't know what a Creepypasta is, it is basically an urban legend of the internet age specifically designed around harsh supernatural elements.
AM: And, sometimes, it’s just like creative writing. Like it's, it's sometimes, often, mostly, almost always, people writing creepy shit, but it is really creepy.
JS: Or, in the – in the instance of Slender Man let's say, because that's a really well-known one, it is someone did a – just an image that they photoshopped. And then people created a story around it.
AM: Yep.
JS: Which is kind of cool in my opinion.
AM: It is really cool. It's like those kind of found or creative writing prompts that we did a lot as kids
JS: Yes.
AM: Or, in our creative writing classes, it will be just like bunch of photos and, you know, choose one and write about it. So, I, I think it's really lovely. And there's like a very cool creepy community around it.
JS: Yeah. I super – I'm super into it. And we know a couple people who either do Creepypasta podcasts or, or talk about Creepypastas a lot. Our friend, Jon Grilz --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- Small Town Horror Podcast, also, does another podcast called Creepy. And you should check it out.
AM: Yes. You should check up those shows. They are really, really good.
JS: Yes. So, what exactly the black-eyed children are is a source of debate among internet communities.
AM: Are they demons?
JS: Well, so, some believe that they are ghosts or demon-possessed children.
AM: Nice.
JS: Others even think that they might be a certain breed of vampires or that they might be extraterrestrials.
AM: Oh, my god, aliens.
JS: I love a good alien thing.
AM: We can't have an episode of Spirits without being – without referencing or kind of alluding to aliens.
JS: Yes.
AM: I love it.
JS: I love a good alien. We gotta do an alien episode at some point. We did record one, but it wasn't – you know, didn't make it to air.
AM: So, what happened, y'all?
JS: Okay.
AM: Is that – before we released any episodes of Spirits, we were – we recorded several, right? To like see how it is and edit them and see, you know, what we should do including the Bigfoot episode with Jake, Julia's fiance. Hey.
JS: That was a weird way of saying that.
AM: That's how Eric Silver says it. So, that's how I say it too.
JS: Cool.
AM: And Jake accidentally got very drunk the day that we recorded the Bigfoot episode. And, so, we were gonna record Bigfoot and then aliens. But, in between Bigfoot and aliens, we recorded our Persephone episode. And, during that, Jake just kept drinking whiskey I guess. And he got so --
JS: I think we're scotch.
AM: -- drunk that we were – we recorded just an indecipherable aliens episode.
JS: It was just really out of order. And he kept getting sidetracked. And I love him to death. He's the best, but I asked him to do research on non-US stuff and the whole thing was US. And Japan has some really cool alien stuff, and I really want to touch on that. So --
AM: And like aliens is a huge topic. You have to kind of choose a lens and go for it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Anyway, it was fine. At some point, we will do an aliens episode.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Don't you worry.
JS: I'm gonna have him re-record it at some point.
AM: Yes.
JS: I love that man. He's cool.
AM: Clearly, you’re getting married.
JS: So, Amanda that's all the creepy children I got for the time being.
AM: Oh, man, I bet there's so many more in the world.
JS: There probably are.
AM: Listeners, please tell us your favorite creepy child myth legend story, sleepover tale, whatever, I want to hear it. I also want to see photos. If you've child photos of yourself or others that you permissioned to post photos on the internet, please send us creepy photos of kids.
JS: I was gonna put that disclaimer on there, but you beat me to it.
AM: Beat you to it.
JS: Yeah. I’m sure that there are some great creepy child urban legends that are from your hometown. I found a bunch that just didn't make it into this episode. Like one where it was a man in a bunny mask that just murdered children under a bridge. That's not cool. Don't do that.
AM: I want to know about it.
JS: Yeah, not into it.
AM: Oro just like quotidian creepy children. For example, we had a friend growing up in our grade, who had a much younger brother. I think he was born when we were in like sixth grade or fifth grade and just looked creepy, creepy, angelic, creepy, changeling like. I'll tell you his name after the recording, Julia.
JS: Cool.
AM: Or, my across the street neighbors growing up, the kids went to Catholic school. And, so, there was just like --
JS: Not, not a good sign already.
AM: Julia just shakes her head immediately. And, so, just like --
JS: My immediate thought goes to The Omen.
AM: Yep. Yep. And, so, kids in Catholic school uniforms just like looking creepily with their like very light red hair at me from my bedroom window growing up.
JS: That's horrifying --
AM: No good.
JS: -- and makes me think of The Shining.
AM: No good.
JS: Don't do that thing.
AM: What is The Shining?
JS: The Stanley Kubrick movie with Jack Nicholson?
AM: Nope.
JS: Here's Johnny.
AM: Nope.
JS: They're in a hotel.
AM: Is he in a shower?
JS: No. They're in a hotel.
AM: Nope. Don't know about it.
JS: Oh. Ugh.
AM: Sorry.
JS: There's a kid riding the tricycle through the halls of the hotel and just stumbles across – Okay. Whatever. I'll show you that later too.
AM: I got nothing.
JS: I think I came up with five movies that I have to show you in this one episode.
AM: Live show concept. Us watching the important bits of those movies and, and me just commenting and being scared on stage.
JS: I'm into it.
AM: If you'd be into it, tweet us @SpiritPodcast.
JS: All right. I think that's all. And, from the bottom of my heart this episode, stay creepy.
AM: And, if you can, if you survive, if you're able to keep your wits about you, stay cool.
Outro Music.
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, directors commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share us with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil