Episode 308: Best Horror Movie Villain
/Halloween might be over but we’re STILL thinking about our favorite horror movies and the best villains from those movies. Join Julia and Eric as they determine via this wild bracket who the best horror movie villain is!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of body horror, violence, torture, murder, death, cancer, illness, cannibalism, cultural appropriation, and sex.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends All Dressed Up by Jilly Gagnon
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games. Join Question Keeper Eric Silver and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. Search for Games and Feelings in your podcast app today!
Sponsors
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
- Blueland creates everyday eco-friendly cleaning productions that save you money and space, without any plastic waste. Get 20% off your first order when you go to blueland.com/spirits.
- Ask Iliza Anything is an advice podcast where people submit their burning questions on topics like how to deal with bad co-workers, bridesmaid drama, faking an accent, and so much more. Listen to Ask Iliza Anything wherever you get your podcasts!
- Calm is the #1 app to help you reduce your anxiety and stress and help you sleep better. Get 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com/spirits.
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
JULIA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Julia.
ERIC: And I'm confused. You're not Amanda?
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: I'm not Julia.
JULIA: That's sure.
ERIC: You're Julia. And it's just the two of us today.
JULIA: And who are you?
ERIC: I'm Eric.
JULIA: Yeah, there it is.
ERIC: I'm on a lot of these episodes. And we are just recording an episode the two of us because Amanda got married.
JULIA: And we're giving her a break because she deserves it.
ERIC: Exactly.
JULIA: So this week, at the time of recording this, this is right before Halloween in our world. But for you guys, it's going to be coming out right after Halloween. And so what I wanted to do today, is I'm writing a high right now, Eric, I'm writing a high right now. And it's because I went to trivia night at my local dive.
ERIC: Ohh. Here we go.
JULIA: And we won first place in classic horror movie slasher trivia with a perfect score.
ERIC: Wow. Now that is, that is truly impressive, the perfect score part. I expected no less from you and Jake, but the perfect score, even with all of your knowledge is still quite impressive.
JULIA: I mean, the competition was hot. I'm not gonna lie. There were some teams that got pretty close to us. But we took home the prize of a T-shirt and a six-pack of beer and a $30 gift card. We did it proud of us.
ERIC: Beautiful. Beautiful gift card to the establishment era?
JULIA: Yes, It's correct.
ERIC: Lovely.
JULIA: But I have been thinking about hey, I love horror movies. Obviously. I also for this month's Head Heart Gut, which is the friendly debate show for the multi-crew. You can go to multicrew.club to sign up. We decided who the best horror movie villain is. And so I've been thinking, I'm not gonna say I was, I was robbed or anything of my wind on Head Heart Gut. But I haven't thinking, out of all of the horror movie villains out there, who is actually the best horror movie villain?
ERIC: That's a tough question. And I'm glad that you and me are here to solve it.
JULIA: We're gonna bracket it up, baby. Here we go. So in creating the bracket here, you gave me eight options. And I chose eight options, and I put together the bracket where we're going to determine once and for all who the best horror movie villain is. And let's talk about how we're going to decide this, like what for you makes the best horror movie villain?
ERIC: So a few things. Number one cool kills.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: Cool kills maybe, I'm yeah. I want a—you know what I take it back. I don't want to say number one. But I want to say cool kills, very important. General scare factor, how menacing they are, how freaky they are, how jumped scary. They are in some of these, these cases, maybe also like the bigness of them, the importance of them. Some of them are, are— they're just trying to kill one or two people.
JULIA: That's true.
ERIC: Some of them are trying to, I don't know, maybe take over the world, starting in Egypt. So, well—we'll see.
JULIA: Yeah, so I think for me, the biggest one is going to be like iconic legacy, you know, like, how recognizable would the average person on the street find this character? Where do they stand in kind of the legacy of both horror films and like films as a whole?
ERIC: Yeah. And I think that also shines a light on our picks.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: Because I—I picked some of my favorites. And then definitely a few, few comedy choices that I know aren't going to win but will make for excellent audio.
JULIA: Yeah, there's a couple that I have some questions about.
ERIC: And I let you take the slasher classics, because I know those are near and dear to your heart.
AMANDA: They are.
ERIC: So we're—I don't think we're in competition here. We're not competing against each other.
JULIA: No.
ERIC: Because you've got the heavy hitters, I would say overall, but I do think that we're coming at this from, from different ways. I think the ways that we've laid out for both of us make a lot of sense. I think we'll be able to come together and find a happy middle ground.
JULIA: Yes, absolutely. I want to talk a little bit more about your, your film expertise before we get into this.
ERIC: Oh no.
JULIA: No? You don't have any—I thought you like studied film in college. Am I wrong?
ERIC: I mean, I—I study. I have a film degree.
JULIA: Okay, Eric, you came to me like oh no. And I say, hey, let's talk about your film expertise.
ERIC: Okay. I mean yes, I—I am well acquainted with, with the film and digital media arts for sure. Undeniably.
JULIA: You have a full degree.
ERIC: Yes. Yeah.
JULIA: Okay, so just so that people know. You know what you're talking about when it comes to movies in my opinion.
ERIC: I know what it means to make a good film.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: And, and, and have a good visual aspect to it.
JULIA: That's why I have some questions about some of your choices on this, but—
ERIC: Okay.
JULIA: With that in mind, let's dig into our bracket. We're going to start with our first matchup, which is going to be Samara from The Ring franchise. We're talking about the American remakes, not necessarily the Japanese versions of the films. Against Freddy Krueger from A Nightmare on Elm Street. So Samara from The Ring, Samara Morgan is the main antagonist character in The Ring film series. A ghost, Samara was once a child gifted with psychic ability that was known as nensha. As she was unable to control this ability, Samara would mentally affect those around her, including her adoptive mother Anna. Nensha allows the user to see visions of the future or of past events and to see ghosts. The user can also use it to move objects telekinetically and may kill people using it. Although the consequences of using the latter option can be vast. Initially appearing as a vengeful ghost, Samara is shown to be an innocent victim seeking some form of attention, particularly after her death and the creation of the videotape, so the world could know her pain and suffering.
ERIC: Yeah, big fan.
JULIA: What was your experience watching The Ring? Because it's been a long time for me.
ERIC: Yeah, this was possible and I could be very wrong about this. The first PG-13 movie I saw in theaters.
JULIA: Wow.
ERIC: Definitely not the first PG theater and movie I saw. But I think it could be the first one I saw in theaters. I mean, it is just a classic to me. I have it on DVD. I love this movie. I've seen it probably more than—
JULIA: Not on Blu-ray, Eric?
ERIC: Any other horro—Well, I mean, some, I mean, look, I'm a big [7:13] guy, everybody knows this, everybody knows I like the digital media. And you know what? I'm talking right about it. Because every time something goes off stream, it was like, how will I ever watch this again? And it's like, motherfucker, you can buy it, you can buy all of this stuff. It's all there. You just pay for streaming stuff. Just buy the things you like, it's great. There's director's commentary on there. Anyways, it's just got great vibes. I love it because now it's like even got like a classic set Stuart, because of like the VHSness of it, which obviously doesn't exist, like the whole premise is like antiquated in a way that I really appreciate from a modern lens. And yeah, I just think it's really good. So yeah, Brian Cox in it. It's just really good. It's really scary. There's like that nice mystery that's being uncovered throughout it, which I think horror movies don't have, like a mystery to it or the mystery is much, much lighter. And this one kind of has like, what's some of the weird images with the tape? Why seven days? Why all this and it finally does all come together at the end, I think.
ERIC: Yes. There was definitely a movie that I remember. Like almost in secret, we would like pass around the DVD or something to it. Like if you were going to a sleepover or something in like middle school or early high school, you'd be like, you guys want to watch The Ring or The Grudge or stuff like that.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: So Samara from The Ring is up against Freddy Krueger.
ERIC: You—you did her dirty on this one.
JULIA: I did not.
ERIC: She's one tough. Is a tough uphill battle, I feel like.
JULIA: So Freddy Krueger is the antagonist from the A Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. In life, he was a serial killer, and in death after being killed by the parents of Springwood, became a malevolent dream demon who kills his victims in their dreams. He has the ability to invade people's dreams and kill them in the dreams, which kills them in reality. Usually, these murders are done via his iconic clawed gloves with the knife hands. Great. He has the ability to manipulate the dream world in any way that he wants, and it is impossible to kill him within the dream world. But he is mortal outside of the dream. If he is killed in the real world, he can return from hell. Canonically he goes to hell every time they kill him. If there is enough fear in the area he wishes to appear in.
ERIC: Just a classic design, the sweater, the claws, the burns. I mean, what a creepy fellow.
JULIA: We watched a lot of horror movies in October and I was talking to Jake about Robert Englund's performance because he is a Shakespearean-trained actor like he's a stage actor. And you can tell from the performance because he knows how to pose and use his body in ways that are so iconic and also terrifying and so so camped, like A Nightmare on Elm Street is incredibly camped. What do you think about it.
ERIC: Oh yeah.
JULIA: Oh my gosh.
ERIC: I would say it— would you say it's the [10:05] of anything on—like in terms of the big ones. Obviously, there's other ones. I guess I've picked one on here, that's probably more campy.
JULIA: So I'll say, in watching the Child's Play franchise, and that's something that we're going to be talking about later on. I've watched like, the first four movies from Child's Play in the past like week.
ERIC: Wow.
JULIA: Because I had never seen them before. I'm like, oh, this is the definition of camp and a lot of it has to do with the—
ERIC: Hmm. That is true. That is true.
JULIA: The Creator is a gay man. And you can tell kind of like from the way that he approaches his horror that, that is 100% the case. So I think he crushes it. I think that's one of the epitomes of camp in the classic slasher franchise.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: I will say A Nightmare on Elm Street is a very close second for me. So what do we think? Do we think it is Samara from The Ring? Or do we think it's Freddy Krueger? I will say in my opinion, Samara is very much iconic in the new sense. And I know it's not even new at this point. Like The Ring feels like new generation to me.
ERIC: It's probably 20 years old.
JULIA: I know, but it still feels new.
ERIC: Yeah. No, I agree.
JULIA: But I think, I think you can't really compare Freddy Krueger to much of anything.
ERIC: Yeah, I also think like Samara's magical abilities, they both essentially have magical abilities are cool. The VHS getting copied and everything is very cool. The seven days is cool. The crawling out of TV is cool, but like entering dreams and being murdered, and coming back after going to hell is cooler.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: He's just got that iconic look. And we also like, we'll be talking about the other fellows later, but both of the other big guys wear white masks.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: And Freddy Krueger is different.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: In that regard. So I think Freddy Krueger takes it. I think he's— he's got the—he's got the legacy. He's got more movies. I think his powers are maybe not cooler, but more interesting in some regards.
JULIA: Yeah, I think that is 100% the case. That was a really tough first one because, when I think of horror movie characters, those are two of the ones that pop up first in my mind, so.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: We're gonna move on to the next matchup, which is the Xenomorph from the Alien franchise up against Jigsaw from The Saw franchise. Thoughts on these, thoughts on this matchup?
ERIC: I mean, if it was just a little cloud of the tricycle, immediate win for Jigsaw, but Jigsaw is unfortunately just an old guy, who sets very elaborate Rube Goldberg that murder people.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah,
ERIC: The Xenomorph, one of the best-designed things in film, just like in all of film and all of the things you can design and film. The Xenomorph design is just phenomenal.
JULIA: So let's get into descriptions for both of these. For people who might not have seen them or who aren't familiar with them. So the Xenomorph is the creature from the Alien franchise designed by the surrealist artist H.R. Giger. The Xenomorph has several distinct stages as part of their lifecycle, so it is like an alien species rather than an individual. So they begin as an egg which then hatches into the larval form, which is known as the face hugger which attaches itself to a living host, which it then impregnates with an embryo and after a period of gestation, that embryo known as the chestburster, does exactly what it says it does, which is violently erupting from the host chest.
ERIC: Right on the tin.
JULIA: It then matures into the adult facia as its skin, which then hardens into a polarized silicone. And like I said before, rather than an individual like many of the villains on this list, the Xenomorph is a species that returns again and again throughout the series. And the Xenomorphs is up against, a very just mortal ass man, which is Jigsaw. John Kramer, aka The Jigsaw killer, is the antagonist from the saw franchise in the series. John is a former engineer who is dying of cancer. However, this diagnosis eventually leads to him finding a new appreciation in life and wanting to inspire the same appreciation in others, namely, by kidnapping people and forcing them to go through deadly quote-unquote "games", where they are forced to test their survival instinct and either injure themselves or others in order to survive.
ERIC: So Jigsaw, I—I. The only Saw movie I've seen all the way through is the first Saw.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: I've seen a lot of the scenes from the other ones. And the murders and the traps and everything, but I do have the general understanding that they definitely like two and three are all right, but mostly just torture porn, and then they kind of really fall off after that.
JULIA: I literally watched two last night for the first time so, I'm with you there.
ERIC: Yeah. Saw one has one of the best twists in any movie. Possibly any horror movie ever. It's phenomenal. We won't give it away, but genuinely an amazing ending to that film for sure.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: How long does this guy have cancer for? He's like, just keeps going, like to see, like to see—to see like, I'm just— I don't think it's established on the first movie is cancer. Maybe it is? JULIA: Well, it like kind of is.
ERIC: Okay.
JULIA: Yeah, it's related to that twist. So I don't want to give it away for the listeners who haven't seen the film. Like I was genuinely surprised by the twist when I watched the movie for the first time, and it had been out for about 20 years at that point.
ERIC: Yeah. Yeah. It's a pheno— it's one of those twists that like, is so because it's literally right at the end, that like, it's very easy to keep secret. And it's phenomenal.
JULIA: Yeah, it's wonderful.
ERIC: But yeah, he's a bit much. He just—it's a bit much all the murders and the way he does it. It's a bit. It's a lot.
JULIA: What I do like about the character of Jigsaw, and I've talked about this with Jake, when we were watching the series as well, is I liked that he always gives you a fair chance to survive.
ERIC: Yes.
JULIA: He genuinely thinks he's coming from a good place, which I think does make an interesting villain character, is someone who is very assured that like, they are doing the right thing in order to teach people to appreciate their lives more. Like sure, that's a wild thing for a villain to want as their motivation. You know what I mean? Like it is a really interesting twist in that regard.
ERIC: Yeah, I will say the man, is an immaculate playtester apparently.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: It does feel like everyone has a fair shot.
JULIA: Yes. Truly.
ERIC: Who you—probably don't have a fair shot against is the Xenomorph.
JULIA: Sure. Is a big alien.
ERIC: Big Black alien with two mouths, mouth inside a mouth.
JULIA: Mouth and mouth.
ERIC: No good. Arguably, the Apex Predator on our list.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: Could probably take out just about anybody really strong contender.
JULIA: Yeah. I do feel bad that I didn't include the Predator on this list. Spoiler alert.
ERIC: I was just gonna say we didn't include The Predator. The Predator movies. I don't know how like, like they, they're spooky. They're not like horror movies. They're more like action movies that have horror elements.
JULIA: I will say I'm sorry, I didn't include The Predator on the list. Go watch Prey on Hulu. It's the best Predator movie since the first one.
ERIC: So good.
JULIA: It's great.
ERIC: Definitely.
JULIA: Also watch it with the [17:08] J. Dub. It's Phenomenal. Seriously. That being said, I do think Xenomorph is one more iconic, has been spoofed more, has lasted longer than Jigsaw in these horror films, to the point where like, they kept making some movies after John Kramer dies in the movies.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: Like it's it's no longer about him. And I think at that point, that's what wins it out for the Xenomorph for me.
ERIC: Yeah, I think Xenomorph takes it, just phenomenal movie. And like the other thing is like, they adjust so much. You've got the slow suspense in Alien, then you got action movies in Aliens. Then you got Alien three. And then you got the real French one. The Alien Resurrection.
JULIA: Uhuh.The Super French one.
ERIC: Like you could watch just like any classic French New Wave film and be like, that's what a French movie looks like. Or you could just watch Alien Resurrections. I'd be like, this is French, and then you watch it and you would be like, somehow that makes a lot of sense.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: So how I now understand what a French film is, because of this Alien movie.
JULIA: Yeah. yeah. No, that makes sense. So we're gonna move the Xenomorph on to the next round. And our next bout is going to be, John Carpenter's The Thing against Leatherface.
ERIC: Oohh,
JULIA: Initial thoughts?
ERIC: I feel like this might be the closest one in our initial bracket.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
ERIC: I think they're both really strong. But let's, let's, let's talk about The Thing.
JULIA: Sure. So from John Carpenter's The Thing, this is a hostile alien creature with the ability to shapeshift and assimilate other life forms in order to survive and spread. The Thing is mysterious in that the original physical characteristics of the creature and its motivations are pretty much unknown for the entire film. It must come into physical contact with its hosts in order to begin the process of analyzing and copying the host cellular structure and the process. Like basically, it digests and then replicates the host. And from what is seen in the film, The Thing only has assimilation and self-preservation in mind. It's very like animalistic brain in that regard.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: So that is up against Leatherface from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre film series. He is a cannibalistic mass murderer, who, along with his family kidnaps kills, cooks and eats unsuspecting travelers who passed by their ranch in Texas. The character's name comes from the mask of human skin that he wears. Leatherface's weapon of choice is of course the chainsaw, though he has been seen using cleavers and hammers in order to kill his victims. And despite the fact that Leatherface is the only one to appear in all installments of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre series, he's rarely the main antagonist in the films and is often depicted as acting only under his family's orders.
ERIC: Pretty, pretty scary stuff from both of them. For me, it's The Thing. Interesting. The Thing is so creepy, the practical effects in the movies, I know that we're judging, ultimate villain and not movie.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: But the practical effects are amazing. The upside-down head with some legs, amazing. Everything about that film is just so intense. And you don't know what's going on. The characters don't know what's going on. I saw a tweet recently, where I don't know if it's a recent tweet or an older tweet. But I saw it recently where someone's like, all right, I'm about to watch The Thing for the first time in my life. And I've got a couple with a way better name for the monster than The Thing. And the guy came back like an hour later, he's like, no, you guys are all right. That's definitely a Thing.
JULIA: Yeah, sure it's The Thing. Uhuh.
ERIC: And Leatherface is very scary. The mask definitely really helps make it, the chainsaw. Very scary. The fact that that film was genuinely terrible to make, at everyone had like heat strokes, practically making it, adds to all of the realism. But like, The Thing is just, it's a Thing.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: That's, that's the thing about it. It's literally just a weird thing that changes throughout the movie, and you never know what it's going to do next. And that keeps you on your toes. And it's extremely scary.
JULIA: I feel so bad for anyone who has not seen The Thing and they're just listening to us and be like, it's The Thing, it's The Thing. You know, it's The Thing.
ERIC: It's The Thing.
JULIA: I will say the thing is a top-three horror movie for me. Like they tend to jostle around my top three, but it's consistently in my top three, for all the reasons that you talked about, like the special effects, in particular, are out of this world, truly, like, truly out of this world. And also just like the creeping suspense of not knowing who or what is infected is also a huge aspect of it as well. I will say, it's really hard because like Leatherface is iconic in the sense that like, every time you go to a haunted house, there is a guy with a chainsaw there, whether he is dressed as Leatherface or not. There's always someone with a chainsaw doing some Texas Chainsaw bullshit. And I think that like is a huge thing. Like, I don't want to downplay how—
ERIC: No it's not a huge thing. The Thing is the huge thing.
JULIA: Shu—Shut up. I don't want to downplay how important and iconic Leatherface is. But John Carpenter's The Thing. One does not have like these huge franchises that like some of the other ones on this list have. And yet we're still talking about it to this day like it doesn't require all these remakes, or these sequels or anything like that. It solely exists on its own. And it's beautiful in that regard, so.
ERIC: And we're also completely ignoring the remake of The Thing in which they did use practical effects. And then they replaced the ball with CG because they were psychos.
JULIA: Yeah, that was like, weird prequel that they made and like—
ERIC: Absolutely terrible vision.
JULIA: Yeah. It wasn't good.
ERIC: I think the thing that makes Leatherface lose it for me more than anything about The Thing, is that I think if you gave Jason Vorhees or Michael Myers a chainsaw, they are just about as threatening as Leatherface.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: And I feel like they are more threatening in lots of other ways.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: And I feel like that's like, the thing that doesn't bring it home for me. It's just like, it's very scary. But it's, it's no thing.
JULIA: Yeah, I will also give Leatherface a, a bonus point before we do not move him into the next round. I love his little tie he wears, he's always got a little tie on when he's like killing all these people.
ERIC: He does have a little tie on.
JULIA: And it's adorable.
ERIC: It was pretty good.
JULIA: All right, so The Thing is gonna move on to the next round. And then for the final one on this side of the bracket, we have The Blob up against Michael Myers. So The Blob was your choice, and I'll let you defend that a little bit. But let's tell the people a little bit about it. So The Blob is a somewhat shapeless mass of alien goo that appears first in the 1958 film, The Blob. Its appearance is like sort of like a red gelatin, but it does possess a level of animal-like intelligence, but it's motivated by its instinct to feed and grow. As it feeds specifically on flesh, it gains mass and grows bigger. The Blob can dissolve flesh on contact. However, it does move slowly, can envelop objects smaller than itself, and cannot be harmed by heat or electricity.
ERIC: Yep.
JULIA: Why The Blob, Eric?
ERIC: The Blob, is a horror movie that my dad really liked.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: And showed it to me, and so it's just kind of a nostalgia factor to me
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: What we're about to do is essentially we've got a worse version of the [24:40] and a better version of Leatherface.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: In this in this competition.
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: Like we know which way this is gonna go. But like The Blob is, it's the same way that like sci-fi before Star Wars. Didn't really know what it was in a lot of ways, like, it like, there was so much different types of, of horror happening back then.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: That The Blob was kind of this like perfect kind of just whatever. It's like, this is The Blob.
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: It sucks you up, you can't really do anything to it. It's funny to look back on now, but it was, it had those horror elements back in the day, the way like weird sci-fi stuff from like the 60s before like, Blade Runner and Star Wars essentially cemented what sci-fi is for the next 40 years.
JULIA: Yes. I think that's absolutely a fair assessment of what like horror and sci-fi were and would be, but it is up against Michael Myers. So Michael Myers is from the Halloween franchise. As a young boy, he kills his older sister, Judith and after 15 years of being institutionalized, he escapes and returns to his hometown to murder some more teenagers, known as quote-unquote, " the shape ". Michael is characterized in the films as being pure evil and is able to withstand injuries that would kill most people. His iconic look is achieved by his mask, which is actually a Captain Kirk mask that was painted white and the sideburns were ripped off. Fun fact.
ERIC: They also puffed up the hair and made the eye-hole speaker.
JULIA: Yes, they did. Oh, god, it's like my favorite thing. It's just so perfect. So they were originally going to put him in just a clown mask, the same clown mask that he has in the opening scene of the movie. And they were like, no, not scary enough. Let's simply not scary enough. What if we just made him a like faceless shape in the distance and you're like, perfect, find a puffy Captain Kirk mask and let's make it happen?
ERIC: I think the contrast as well of like the stark white mask and the usually just the blue jumpsuit.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: Is just such a like silhouette from the distance. Maybe silhouettes not the right word. But like, you can tell that it's Michael Myers from 3000 feet away. You're like, I know what's coming for me right now. It's that guy.
JULIA: 100% Yeah. We went to a haunted house two weekends ago. And the last thing that they had was just like a bunch of Michael Myers like standing in the woods. So like, you wouldn't know which one was real and which ones were fake. And you can just tell from a distance, like oops, that's a Michael Myers [27:04] that's a Michael Myers, you could tell.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: 100%. So I think when it comes to the identifiability of the character here, and just like everyone knows The Blob, but it's not like people are seeking out The Blob during Halloween to watch as a franchise.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: And that's nothing to say of like how impactful the Halloween franchise was to the slasher genre as a whole. But it's gotta be Michael Myers, right?
ERIC: Of course. Of course.
JULIA: Now, Eric, we'll get to the second half of our bracket, but first, how about we grab a refill?
ERIC: Hope no one's hiding in the kitchen.
[theme]
AMANDA: Hello, everybody and welcome to the refill. It's me, Amanda. Julia and Eric very kindly recorded this episode while I was out for my wedding, but I still wanted to pop in from the mid-roll to say hello and importantly welcome to our newest Patreon, Audrey, you join the ranks of the distinguished supporting producer level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Iron Havoc, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan, MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course, you know it, the legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Cicuta Maculata, Clara, Ginger Spurs Boi, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. You guys are the ones who let this be our job. Your support on Patreon is the thing we can depend on, no matter what's happening to the ad market, to podcasting in general, to the world, to the algorithm, you sign up every month to give a little bit of your hard-earned cash to a podcast you really enjoy. And that means the absolute world to us, and means in actuality we can keep making the show. So if you've been thinking about it, if you are looking for a new podcast to support, if you are thinking hmm, I really enjoy Spirits in my life. I enjoy Spirits Wednesdays, it's the thing that makes my week go a little smoother and the thing I can look forward to, consider giving us a few bucks at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I am going to recommend a fabulous book for you, so you know that I'm really into mysteries and I'm really into romance. And today's book. Oh my god, I was up way too late last night reading it, which is how I know that a book really catches me. it is, All Dressed Up by Jilly Gagnon. G A G N O N. I'm sure it's pronounced in a fancy way like, Gagnon. But listen, this is a murder mystery set, at a murder mystery-themed weekend. That's right people. An actual murder or a missing persons case at least takes place at a like theme weekend, where eight people go to a manor now in 2022 to do a like 1920s-themed murder mystery weekend. And so in the book, there is both the plot where I am actually genuinely interested in, in like the fictional plot of the fictional book murder weekend, who was supposed to have done it. And also there's a real missing person, and there are also like the clues from the materials of the actual plot in the book. It is so good. Me describing it to you, it sounds a little bit convoluted, but it's so easy to follow. It's so great, it really gripped me. I'm like two-thirds of the way through the book. I'm going to keep reading it after I record this because I'm so into it. I'm like finding excuses to like, take a long bus ride so I can finish the book. God, it's so good. It's All Dressed Up, and you can find a link to buy it from a local indie bookstore at spiritspodcast.com/books. Where Julia very kindly collects all the recommendations from us and books that our guests have written. spiritspodcast.com/books. I have also got to recommend another podcast to accompany you in your life from Multitude, you got to check out games and feelings. This is an advice podcast all about games, all kinds of games, video games, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, D&D podcasts, the companies and workers that make those games everything you can think of relating to games, hosted by my husband, Eric Silver, and a revolving cast of guests. They tackle your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. Since you know, you play games with other people or games that are made by other people. It's a fabulous show. I am so happy to listen to it every weekend. I was on an episode just a week and a half ago where Eric and I revisited advice questions from your, so we answer questions from the 90s, from Dear Abby, we answer some contemporary questions from Dear Prudence. It's really fun because no other advice columnist is a game specialist like Eric Silver is. So go ahead, check it out. Search for Games and Feelings in your podcast player right now. And listen to new episodes every other Friday. We are sponsored this week by Blueland. I went to a friend's place for Halloween a few days ago. And I was delighted to see a beautiful classy glass hand soap dispenser in her bathroom from Blueland. And I went out I said Blueland, I love those guys. They're a podcast sponsor. She goes I know I use code Spirits. I was like, thank you. It is so fabulous. They make classy and sustainable cleaning products. Their mission is to eliminate single-use plastic by reinventing cleaning essentials that are better for you and for the planet. And this holiday season, they are having their best sale of the year. So you can save and shop sustainably for your friends, family, even yourself. Basically, you get one of their forever bottles, which is a very classy and well-made glass bottle, fill it with warm water, drop in the tablets, they send you in nice paper packets and get cleaning. Refill starting at just 225. And best of all, you don't have to buy a new plastic bottle every time you run out of stuff. They have subscriptions, but they're not required. So you can if you want to never run out of products, or just buy stuff when you're out. Their Clean Essentials Kit is a fabulous way to go. You can get their basics in all of their wonderful signature scents. To take advantage of their best sale of the year, go to BlueLand.com/spirits. You won't want to miss this, Blueland.com/spirits. That blueland.com/spirits. This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp, and listen people. Sometimes I wish that I was born with a user manual for my brain. I wish that it was given to my parents know how to parent me, I wish it was given to me so that I know. Hey, there's this thing about myself that I don't love or there's this habit or situation that I keep finding myself in, there is a thing that's troubling me that I wish I could get rid of or work through. And unfortunately, no one is here to give me the answers to how to live better in my brain and my body except me, but also my therapist. And when I am feeling stuck when there is a challenge or an anxiety or something happening in my life that I just wish I could get help with, a therapist is a great way to go. They're trained to help you figure out the cause of challenging emotions and learn productive coping skills. You know, therapy is kind of the closest thing to a guided tour of your own brain that you can get. And I get my therapy through BetterHelp. As the world's largest therapy service BetterHelp has matched 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100% online. Plus it's affordable, just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist. And if stuff isn't clicking, you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime, and honestly couldn't be simpler. No waiting rooms, no traffic, no endless searching for the right therapist. Learn more and save 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com/spirits. We are also sponsored this week by Calm. For me, one of the times and ways that I find calm in my life is a bath. It's stretching in the morning, it's journaling and just getting any of those like chaotic thoughts that I wake up without in my brain and onto the paper. And I really enjoy that we get to talk about the benefits of taking a little break, taking a little moment for self-care, taking some time out of your busy schedule to just relax and be, because we're sponsored by Calm. This is the number one mental wellness app that gives you tools to improve the way you feel. You can reduce stress and anxiety through guided meditations, improve your focus with curated music tracks and rest and recharge with their sleep stories. I used one last night to help me fall asleep in the middle of the night. For listeners of the show, Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm premium subscription at CALM.com/spirits. Go to C A L M.com/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's CALM.com/spirits. And finally we are sponsored by the podcast Ask Illiza everything. If you need advice, comedian Iliza Shlesinger is there for you. She gives advice every week on Ask Illiza Anything, where people submit their questions on topics like, how to deal with bad coworkers, bridesmaid drama, [35:23] faking an accent and so much more. It ranges from wise and heartfelt, to rage-inducing. And the questions that is, and her answers are always entertaining. If you can't stand your co-worker or friend ruined your wedding or you just need someone to be real with you about a thing that's going on in your life and you're like, oh my god, is it me? Or is it the other person? This is one show that you can check out. Go ahead and Ask Illiza Anything by letting Illiza give you the advice your friends won't. Listen to Ask Illiza Anything wherever you get your podcasts. That's Asked I L I ZA Anything. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: All right, Eric, I found these blood bags full of hurricanes in the kitchen like a guy and just like a creepy clown mask handed them to me, so they're probably okay. Do you want one?
ERIC: Yeah, yeah, sure.
JULIA: All right, cool. Awesome.
ERIC: That sounds great.
JULIA: So let's move on to our next matchup and this is going to be Hannibal Lecter against Chucky.
ERIC: Hmm. A very mortal man versus a very immortal? Doll?
JULIA: Kinda. Yeah. So Hannibal Lecter is a cannibalistic serial killer from the Silence of The Lambs and other films. Before he was caught and incarcerated. He was a respected forensic psychiatrist. While in prison he was sought out by the FBI to consult on cases including by Will Graham to catch the Tooth Fairy and Clarice Starling to catch Buffalo Bill. And he is up against Chucky, which I watched the Child's Play movies, like I said, for the first time this year.
ERIC: Wow.
JULIA: And they're wild. They're much better than I thought they were gonna be.
ERIC: I saw Child's Play far too yet.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: It was one of those things where I saw it. It was like on cable on vacation and I was the one sleeping on the pull-out couch where we were staying. And I—that that is my only experience with it. And man, it left an impression.
JULIA: Rewatch it as a full adult. They're much better than you probably imagined. Also, you probably didn't get any of the cussing, which is the best part of those films while watching it on cable.
ERIC: You're probably right. You're probably right yeah,
JULIA: Charles Lee Ray aka the Lake Shore strangler is better known as his doll form Chucky. Using voodoo witch yikes extremely problematic. A dying Charles Lee Ray transferred his soul into a good guy doll. In the body of the doll. The only way to kill him is by shooting him in the heart. However, despite being killed and destroyed multiple times, he has been resurrected into the doll form through various means through the various films. So this was a hard one for me, because I think off the top of my head, I would have immediately gone for Hannibal Lecter.
ERIC: Okay.
JULIA: But at the same time watching the Child's Play movies recently, Chucky is pretty fucking iconic.
ERIC: Chucky is very iconic. Here's a couple of things I'll say about Hannibal Lecter.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: Anthony Hopkins, Sir Anthony Hopkins won his academy award for the least time on screen. I mean, he didn't—he won for best actor, but he won with the least. He's only on screen for 30 minutes or something extremely short. It's unbelievable. Point number two Mads Mikkelsen.
JULIA: Oh yeah, I know Eric, I know.
ERIC: Very hot.
JULIA: I will also say he was played by Brian Cox before Anthony Hopkins in a very bad—
ERIC: Oh in the— in the original Man Hunter. [38:31]
JULIA: Yes, yes.
ERIC: Yeah, I forgot about that. Yes.
JULIA: It was not as good as Anthony Hopkins performance and certainly not as hot as Mads Mikkelsen's performance. So like, those are both points. And I'll be honest, Hannibal Lecter is one of my favorite horror movie characters of all fucking time
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: All fucking time. I—that was like my breakup movie in high school. And so I got like, weirdly attached to it. Figured out those traumas like 20 years later, I'm fine.
ERIC: Your origin story. A lot—the pieces are falling into place, with that—with that little anecdote right there.
JULIA: Hey, Eric. Thanks. But like I also I—we kind of give Chucky his due man up. I haven't started watching the new Sci-fi channel TV series Chucky, but it looks great. It looks like a lot of fun.
ERIC: I've heard good things. So sell me on Chucky. Because once again, he's a classic. He's got some cool supernatural stuff. He's— he's one of the more quick-witted of the people on our bracket. So let's—let's hear the argument for Chucky.
JULIA: So I like Chucky for the same reason that I like Freddy Krueger. Like if I had to pick let's say between Freddy and Jason, always pick Freddy because they're more entertaining. They're fucking funny. Like I want a little bit of levity in my horror. And Chucky is genuinely funny. The first time you hear him talk in like not the doll voice, but he's just like fucking murderer voice. He's like, I'll teach you to fuck with me bitch, and it just like you hear it and like, what the fuck? What the fuck? So it's just like It's funny, it's fucking cheesy in the best possible, like the way that certain horror movies should be cheesy. You know what I mean?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: It's campy, because it's like, again, the creator is a gay man until like, you can tell that he really was enjoying that cheesiness and putting it in there. And the later movies are just like, pure camp.
ERIC: For sure.
JULIA: Honestly, just the ca—like, starting with The Bride of Chucky on, it is camp to the extreme. And it is delightful. Honestly, there is some problematic stuff in there much like a lot of stuff that was made in the 80s.
ERIC: Oh.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: Oh, yeah. All those, all of these probably have some problematic stuff.
JULIA: None of these are not problematic. I am stuck between these two. And I do genuinely like both of these characters. I think I am going to lean more towards Hannibal Lecter. If only because during my research, I came across this which is the AFI, which is the American Film Institute, in 2003 named Hannibal Lecter the greatest villain in American cinema.
ERIC: Wow. I mean, that's pretty significant. I mean, I think this is a really tough one. Much like The Thing and Leatherface but yeah, I mean, I guess if we're gonna give it to The Thing, the supernatural one. On this one, let's, let's give it to the mortal.
JULIA: Yeah. All right, so it's gonna be Hannibal moving on to the next round. Fantastic. So next up on our list is going to be Ghostface up against The Ginger Dead Man.
ERIC: Yeah, yeah. Hmm. Yep.
JULIA: Okay, let's start with Ghostface real quick.
ERIC: Okay, sure.
JULIA: So Ghostface is the masked killer from the Scream franchise and it's interesting because this is more of a mantle or a persona that is taken over by multiple killers throughout the series.
ERIC: I was going to ask about this because I've seen Scream one a lot, and I remember how that all wraps up. And then I have seen the other Screams as well but I could not remember who becomes those faces in the rest of those.
JULIA: Their different one every time Eric.
ERIC: Yeah, Okay.
JULIA: So because the— in like the Canon, the costume is like a readily available, is in like it was like bought from a costume store. And the fact that they use the voice modulator to create the iconic voice over the phone and occasionally in person. Ghostface true terrorists, and the fact that anyone can be following and tormenting our final girl, Sidney Prescott. Here's an interesting fun fact about Ghostface and Scream franchise. At one point the scripts for I think either the second or third, I can't quite remember, got leaked on the Internet, and they fucking change the ending, like who the killer was in that film so that you like didn't know like the spoilers didn't stop you from enjoying the film, which I think is—
ERIC: That's pretty good.
JULIA: Wes Craven? Love that bitch.
ERIC: Man, what a name, Wes Craven.
JULIA: It's so good. And then we had The Gingerdead Man, which is Gary Busey plays The Gingerdead man who is an anthropomorphized evil gingerbread man who was created from a mix of gingerbread spice mix, and the ashes of a deceased serial killer. When he comes to life, he terrorizes a small-town bakery, and Eric, what the fuck is this?
ERIC: Yeah, so I've never seen The Gingerdead Man.
JULIA: Then why [43:03]
ERIC: So here's the reason I've made The Gingerdead Man. We got a lot of Gen Z listeners. So they probably don't know about The Ring either. But there used to be these places to go blockbusters.
JULIA: Oh my god.
ERIC: I woul— we and my friends would go out and rent movies, and we'd always find The Gingerdead Man. And we'll be like, look at this fucking thing, and then we'd never once rented it. And it is absolutely hilar—It's just so funny to say. It's funny to say, Gingerdead Man. It's funny that Gary Busey played essentially as a knockoff Chucky who is just a gingerbread man. It's hilarious, I needed to throw something on this list that was just absolutely insane. And I wanted to go with, with The Gingerdead Man.
JULIA: Okay, Eric I need you to know that the man who created these films, who directed them. Charles Band.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: Also created a series, similar vein I would say to The Gingerdead Man, including Evil Bong. Evil Bong 2: King Bong, Evil Bong 3D, The Wrath of Bong.
ERIC: Now what is weird is, we did eventually at one point rent one of the Evil Bong.
JULIA: Fuck man. God damn it. How was that? Tell me about it.
ERIC: It was in high school so I genuinely cannot remember. It was with the same group of friends that we did watch the Saw movie with. I remember we watched Saw together at one of the birthday parties and like the twist, we got to the end at like 2 am and just like lost our mind.
JULIA: Damn.
ERIC: Yeah, good times. But yeah, I think it's safe to say that—
JULIA: It was face killer yeah.
ERIC: Ghostface wins.
JULIA: Yep.
ERIC: But man, watch that trailer for Gingerdead Man on YouTube. It's very funny.
JULIA: Oh God. Okay. We're gonna move on to our next one, which is Imhotep from The Mummy against Pinhead from the Hellraiser franchise. So Imhotep is the Mummy from The Mummy. As the high priest of Osiris and advisor to the Pharaoh, he killed the Pharaoh because he was in love with his wife. As punishment for this crime and for using dark magic from the Book of the Dead. He was executed with mummification and cursed with the Hom-Dai, which is just an evil curse. When he was brought back as The Mummy, he desired to devour human flesh in order to regain his physical form and try to spread evil and corruption throughout the world in order to rule it, only to be thwarted by the power duo and bisexual awakening of Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz.
ERIC: Amazing. A true classic film.
JULIA: And then we have Pinhead who is one of the main antagonists of the Hellraiser franchise, and is the leader of the Cenobites, which is a group of creatures that describe themselves as quote, " explorers in the further regions of experiences demons to some, angels to others. " His name Pinhead is like a fan name that the fans gave him. It's not his name in the franchise but they used it later on because it kind of just stuck.
ERIC: Oh, I didn't know that.
JULIA: Yeah, it derives from the fact that he has a very white bald head that is studded with nails. That's it.
ERIC: Yep. Very straightforward.
JULIA: Yeah, he and the rest of the Cenobites are usually only summoned to Earth through puzzle boxes that open kind of like an interdimensional door and then they appear.
ERIC: So Hellraiser is other than The Gingerdead Man, the—the only other thing on this list that I have no experience with. I've never seen any of the Hellraiser movies.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: But I will speak to The Mummy.
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: Very scary. He one time makes a big face and a sandstorm. Very scary. He's got Scarab powers. Pretty scary. He's quite attractive along with Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz in that film.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: It's—
JULIA: Everyone's hot in that film. Like there's not a single not-hot person in that film.
ERIC: Yeah, other than the Weasley guy that are just kind of like, mehehehe.
JULIA: Like the brother and—
ERIC: They despise humanity.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: Yeah. No good. No good. Don't align yourself with The Mummy. But yeah, I mean, he's just really, he's got a— he's got the biggest goals. I feel like of any of the people on this list. And that's kind of why I wanted to include him. Because most of these are just like, serial killers that they got like a weird grudge or something like that. That they want to make people live their best lives with Jigsaw. But The Mummy is just like, I want to cover the world in sand and roulement.
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: Which I wanted. I wanted somewhat like that in this list.
JULIA: Yeah. So for Hellraiser and Pinhead. I watched the first Hellraiser this year for the first time. And it's very, it's very Clive Barker, who's the guy who wrote and directed it.
ERIC: Clive Barker, by the way. Super nice guy, it turns out.
JULIA: I'm sure he's a very nice dude, but he's like working through a lot of shit in his films. And you could tell.
ERIC: Yeah, I recently watched a video about him and like, genuinely, like extremely happy-go-lucky guy in real life.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: And then just makes the darker shit in his paintings and films and stuff.
JULIA: Well, he went through like a lot of really rough shit in his like childhood and young adulthood. So I get it. Like you use your art to kind of work through that stuff.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: That being said, Pinhead, is barely in the film. Like he's really not even the villain. He's kind of this sort of, like extraplanar force that is kind of influencing the things that are happening. Really, the bad guys are like the humans that are trying to escape the Cenobites. Like, they're the people who are doing most of the murdering. And so I can't move Pinhead forward in this matchup, because I think he's just like, like an extra in his own film. You know what I mean?
ERIC: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. All right. So we're gonna move Imhotep into the next round. Our final matchup of this round is going to be Jason Vorhees against Pod People. Okay, so Pod People, are not the villains from Invasion of the Body Snatchers, which is what I thought you were talking about when you first told me about this.
ERIC: Absolutely not.
JULIA: But rather, they are from a 1983 French-Spanish film called Extra Terrestrial Visitors. Eric, explain yourself. What is this nonsense?
ERIC: Yeah, so this movie I know about and other listeners may know about as one of the probably best episodes of Mystery Science Theater 3000. It is just an absolutely bad film in all of the right ways. The creatures are these little furry guys that are just extremely silly to look at. And it's just so strange in so many different ways. And I mean, I've never just watched the film, I've only watched it through the lens of Mystery Science Theater. And like, it brings me so much joy. I've watched this episode probably more than any other episode of Mystery Science Theater. There are just unbelievably silly lines. When I shared it with Julia, there's a line where like book main characters like in a recording studio, and that sounds like hey, how's that sound? And like, the guy just goes, it stinks with a big like, okay side with his hand. It's just like, what is this movie? And Mystery Science Theater also does sketches in between, like commercial breaks and stuff. And it has some of the best sketches. So like, Pod People absolutely knock away with this round, but like it is something that you definitely should watch. Probably, I'd like The Gingerdead Man. It is a very silly bad horror movie that is truly one of those things that is elevated by Mystery Science Theater.
JULIA: Fantastic. Can I share with you a fun fact that I learned in researching this?
ERIC: You've already shared with me a fun fact because I didn't know what the actual name of the movie is because it's just called Pod People in Mystery Science Theater. I'm pretty sure.
JULIA: Yes. So this was originally intended to be a low-budget horror movie about an evil alien on the prowl. However, in order to attempt to capitalize on the success of ET The Extra-Terrestrial, which came out around the same time, the producers demanded script changes at the last minute. Any elements including a child, and another more lovable and cute alien to serve as a playmate.
ERIC: Yep.
JULIA: Yep.
ERIC: Yep.
JULIA: Incredible. Right? Impeccable. All right. So the Pod People, which—can you just describe to me what the Pod People are? Or it's just like, it doesn't matter.
ERIC: It doesn't matter. I mean, one of them looks like essentially a bipedal Snuffleupagus.
JULIA: Right.
ERIC: That's the one that the kid hangs out with. I don't really remember what the adults look like, but I'm pretty sure they're like equally just kind of big, lumbering creatures.
JULIA: Wonderful. All right, well, they are up against Jason Vorhees, who we already know is going to move into the next round.
ERIC: Yup.
JULIA: But for people who don't know Jason is of the Friday the 13th franchise. He was the son of the camp cook turned killer Mrs. Vorhees who set out to kill camp counselors at Camp Crystal Lake after she blamed them for Jason's drowning in said Lake. In subsequent films, it is revealed that Jason is alive and he enacts revenge on the film's original final girl for chopping his mother's head off. He continues to live at Crystal Lake guarding it from quote-unquote " intruders " and is periodically killed and then brought back to life throughout the various films. Also fun fact, his iconic hockey mask did not make an appearance until the third Friday the 13th movie.
ERIC: The third, I knew it wasn't in the first.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: But I'm genuinely surprised that it wasn't in the second.
JULIA: It's just like a sack he wears on his face for the second film.
ERIC: Huh. Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: Which one does he go to in Manhattan? Is that the third one?
JULIA: That's Jason takes Manhattan. I believe that's the fourth one. Let me triple-check that real quick.
ERIC: Fourth one. Okay. Okay. I was like, That would be weird that he put on the hockey mask when he finally goes to Manhattan.
JULIA: Oh, I'm sorry. No, that's—Jason takes Manhattan is number eight.
ERIC: Eight?! Jesus. I definitely. I don't even know if I realized there were that many. I knew there were a lot of Halloween movies. I did not realize there were that many Friday the 13th.
JULIA: There at least 10, because in 10, it's Jason X and he goes to space.
ERIC: Oh, I didn't realize. That's why he was [52:25] I thought it was because he was just like different and more powerful and it's space.
JULIA: Yeah, no. So it goes all the way up to 10. And then you get Freddy vs. Jason and then you get the remake of Friday the 13th in 2009.
ERIC: Gotcha. Gotcha.
JULIA: That was one of Kevin Bacon's first big roles, was the original 13th movie.
ERIC: Right, yeah.
JULIA: And he died because they shove an arrow through his neck after he had sex.
ERIC: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Wasn't even close to being one of the final people. There you go. Jason, unlike Kevin Bacon, is going to move closer to being one of the final people as we go into our next round. And we'll do this a little bit more rapid-fire, as we tend to usually do. So first up is going to be Freddy Krueger against the Xenomorph.
ERIC: Oh, now I want to say Xenomorph, Apex Predator, we also—here's what I'm going— I'm going to suggest. We have no evidence that the Xenomorphs dream, which means Freddy is basically useless against the Xenomorphs, assuming that Xenomorphs don't dream.
JULIA: Sure, but then the Xenomorphs have no way of defeating Freddy either because they can't pull him out of the dream realm because they have no access to it. But this is not like a battle royale situation.
ERIC: That's true.
JULIA: We're talking about like, who is the most iconic?
ERIC: God, Oh, these are—
JULIA: It's a hard one. I'm sorry,
ERIC: This shouldn't be the final. Oh, man. No, no, you've done, you've done good. We have to make a hard decision right now.
JULIA: There's a lot of hard decisions in this round.
ERIC: I still I—man Xenomorph and Gigers design is so cool. And that, that carries a lot of weight for me. So I still want to lean towards the Xenomorph.
JULIA: Okay. I'm—I'm leaning towards Freddie, not because it's my choice or anything like that. But rather because I think that Robert Englund's performance as Freddy stands out more to me than the Xenomorphs. Maybe it's just because Robert Englund can talk.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: And has some iconic fucking lines. But I just think that I don't know. He's fucking funny. He really leans into the camp of things later on in the films and he just stands out to me as an iconic horror movie character.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: We can always come back to this one if you want to.
ERIC: Let's come back to it.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: Let's come back to it.
JULIA: Well, the next one is The Thing versus Michael Myers.
ERIC: This one I think, I think is Michael Myers.
JULIA: Yes, I agree with you.
ERIC: The—as I said, the image of Michael Myers is in my mind. I mean, like Freddy Krueger, Jason Vorhees and Michael Myers are the three slasher villains that are easily the most iconic here.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: And you could probably throw Chucky in there as a close fourth.
JULIA: Or Leatherface.
ERIC: Yeah. But Michael Myers, for some reason, is the one that I picture when I think of a horror movie slasher villain. So I have to give it to Michael Myers. The Thing has a lot of cool things in the movie itself. But the ultimate villain is Michael Myers.
JULIA: Yeah. I mean, it's John Carpenter. He gets John Carpenter here too, which is really fun and exciting.
ERIC: Yeah, that's true.
JULIA: I 100% agree with you. I think the problem is The Thing does not have an iconic look.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: While the practical effects that made The Thing were revolutionary. Michael Myers is something that you see him and you know exactly what it is. If I showed someone a picture of The Thing, they'd be like, huh, but they wouldn't be like, that's The Thing, you know what I mean unless they'd seen the film.
ERIC: Exactly. And also, you get those videos where a little kid loves Michael Myers, and they dress off at Halloween, and that's always adorable.
JULIA: That is always adorable. Jake dresses up as Michael Myers every Halloween and scares the children of our neighborhood. And it's great. It's my favorite part about Halloween. All right, we're moving on to our next one, which is Hannibal Lecter against Ghostface.
ERIC: Hmm, I mean, the mask is cool, but Hannibal Lecter is cooler.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. No, I think I'm gonna go with Hannibal on this one as well. Listen, Scream is again, one of my top three favorite horror movies, Halloween movies, but I think Hannibal won again. Iconic, award-winning, universally recognized. Ghostface it's just, it changes every time. And I think that kind of does take a little bit away from it, that it's not the same person, that it's a mantle that gets passed down. So yeah, I'm gonna go Hannibal for the next round.
ERIC: All right.
JULIA: All right. And then finally we have Imhotep against Jason.
ERIC: I want to say Jason from the jump because he's, he's one of those iconic ones. But Imhotep is still really, really cool.
JULIA: Very powerful.
ERIC: Very powerful. But we're not just doing battle royale as you said.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: So in terms of horror stuff, I feel like Jason does create that level of fright, that Imhotep doesn't. There's lots of scary things he does, but like being chased by just an ancient Egyptian man is not as scary as being chased by Jason Vorhees.
JULIA: That is an ancient Egyptian man who can like control sands and the weather though, you know?
ERIC: Oh, of course. Of course.
JULIA: Yeah. No, I think there is something to be said. I think if Jason was up against like, a more shit-talking opponent, I would give it to the other person. But Imhotep doesn't really have a lot of classic lines or anything like that. So I think Jason in terms of visuals, and kill count, and ridiculous like situations you find him like we were just talking about Jason takes Manhattan. Jason in space. Like these are fucking classic ridiculous movies. And so I have to give it to Jason here.
ERIC: Yeah, that's fair.
JULIA: All right. We do have to circle back though to Freddy vs. the Xenomorph now. How are you feeling? I'm still, I'm still tied up on Freddy man, Robert Englund's performance.
ERIC: I'm still on Xenomorph. And I don't, I don't want to say like, come on, you've already got it. [58:09] Mike. But like, come on.
JULIA: Come on.
ERIC: Give me that alien.
JULIA: All right.
ERIC: Here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. The dread in alien is so much higher than I feel like the dread in any of the Nightmare on Elm Street ones. And like, I am not taking away what the slasher movies were doing back then. But like Xenomorph brings a different level, especially in Alien and Alien 3. So that's why I want to strongly say Xenomorph.
JULIA: Yeah, I think the problem here is, these are two very different types of horror.
ERIC: A 100%.
JULIA: You have camp and you have dread. You know what I mean?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: So, and like survivalist dread to which is even more terrifying in a lot of sense. I just love Sigourney Weaver. I guess we'll have to give it to the Xenomorph.
ERIC: I'll take it. I'll take it.
JULIA: All right, that's fine. That's fine. I know in my heart for anyone in my bracket, so it's fine.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: But we'll move on. So that means it's going to be the Xenomorph against Michael Myers here.
ERIC: The Xenomorph against Michael Myers. These are the two images that I would say, I think of when I think of scary stuff on screen. If we're defining it as a horror movie villain, It's Mike Myers.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: Xenomorph is a horror sci-fi villain, sci-fi villain, very scary, no good. But it's also at the end of the day, I've used the benefit that the Xenomorph is the Apex Predator, but that is all the Xenomorph is at the end of the day. It is a creature hunting people without as much intention as Michael Myers is hunting people. And I feel like that intentionality makes Michael Myers scarier.
JULIA: Yes. I agree. 100%. I'm with you all the way Michael Myers is terrifying in that like he's not doing it to survive, he's just doing it. You know what I mean like he's not trying to like further his species like the Xenomorph is, he's just like, I think these people should be dead, and then he kills them.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: That's it. So this last one here before we go into our final is going to be Hannibal Lecter against Jason Vorhees.
ERIC: What does Jason have that Mike Myers doesn't.
JULIA: So you're asking me what is Jason have that Michael Myers doesn't?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: Jason has experienced in space.
ERIC: Jason has experienced in space. I'm just—I'm just trying to like separate like, what—like we've been talked—we've talked about Michael Myers a lot. And obviously, this is between Jason and Hannibal. I feel like it's so easy to conflate Michael and Jason.
JULIA: Sure.
ERIC: And Mike Myers is guy in a mask with a knife. Jason Vorhees is guy in a mask, often with a knife.
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: What do you view as like the difference there? Like what, what pushes Jason above Hannibal essentially, in comparison to like a Mike Myers type?
JULIA: See, my problem is I'm being like, Well, Michael Myers, his movies are better. And I know that's not a good judgment for the like, way that we're judging this, you know?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: So I think for Jason, Jason has more motivation than Michael does.
ERIC: Okay.
JULIA: Like, Jason died because of neglect from camp counselors who were doing things that they, quote, unquote, " should not have been doing while he drowned ".
ERIC: Right.
JULIA: Jason also, like, has territory and has like, a motivation in that sense. Michael Myers is just like, trying to kill people in his hometown. Because I don't know. That's like, that's always been the kind of problem is that, like, what is Michael Myers's beef? Why does he want to come into this town and like, cause havoc and kill all these people? Like, there's no real explanation for him. He's just evil, and he just has a focus on this one town. So I think that Jason benefits from having targets that are specific to, oh, you were in my territory, or oh, you remind me of the people who did me wrong.
ERIC: Gotcha. Okay, that helps. That helps me a lot with now, Jason versus Hannibal. Hannibal has that cool factor. He's got the sexy factor.
JULIA: Arguably the sexiest person on this list.
ERIC: Yeah. Yeah.
JULIA: If we're gonna compare. Imhotep is a close second, but Hannibal Lecter on top.
ERIC: He was the close second. I think that Hannibal just—is kind of the opposite of the Xenomorph. That movie ha—is suspenseful?
JULIA: Yes.
ERIC: But it's not full of horror in a lot of ways. So I feel like Jason would be Hannibal given the reasons that you've kind of laid out for Jason just now.
JULIA: Yeah. Okay. So Jason is going to move on to the next round. Because I think again, Hannibal Lecter is an incredible film character.
ERIC: Of course.
JULIA: But I wouldn't title him as the like, best horror movie villain.
ERIC: You watch Silence of the Lambs, like late your first week of your Halloween, every horror movie in a month type thing? Like he's not— he's not where you start. He's not where you finish, but you've definitely fit him in there somewhere.
JULIA: Of course. But Jason, you know, you watch a couple of those Friday the 13th movies, you watch Freddy vs. Jason, you watch Jason goes to space because it's hilarious. You watch Jason takes Manhattan because it's hilarious. So yeah, yeah. I think it's got to be our final round, then is going to be Michael Myers against Jason Vorhees.
ERIC: For me. It's Michael Myers.
JULIA: Okay.
ERIC: I think I've established my love of the image.
JULIA: Yep.
ERIC: And I think that, that carries a lot of weight in what is scary to a person. What you immediately see. Jason Vorhees, also very scary. The mask especially when it's got some blood on it. Very scary. But Mike Myers, there's just something about like the appearing behind a bush.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: They just lingering off in the distance.
JULIA: There's a reason they call him the shape, you know?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: He's literally in the credits of the first film. He's referred to as the shape.
ERIC: The shape. That's good.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: That's good.
JULIA: And also like, again, I'll talk about this movie till I die because I think it's a fantastic movie. It was made on such a fucking shoestring budget. They spent like three-quarters of their budget just on the cameras to shoot it. They hadn't Jamie Lee Curtis in between takes picking up the dead leaves that they had rolling around because they were filming in the middle of summer, but they wanted it to feel like fall. The budget only had enough money for two pumpkins, which weren't even pumpkins, they were just gourds that they spray painted orange because again, it was in October.
ERIC: Amazing.
JULIA: It wasn't Halloween time. It's a wonderful movie for what it is. And it did revolutionize the way that horror movies were made after that, like a lot of what you see in the original Friday the 13th movie is because of how well-received Halloween was, and John Carpenter's simplicity when it comes to creating a horror movie.
ERIC: And we haven't mentioned it yet, but we need to. The music adds so much. It adds so much.
JULIA: I own a shirt that says composed by John Carpenter. So yeah, the music's incredible. Oh, god.
ERIC: Is there anything worth even mentioning about Jason at this point in this? Or are we giving it to Mike? I mean, I think we are, but like, what—what—what possible thing could Jason do to pull this out?
JULIA: So I'm actually going to use the argument that I made for Jason before against him and give the bonus to Michael Myers in that.
ERIC: Oh.
JULIA: The fact that you don't know what Michaels's motivation is, makes him scarier.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: With Jason, you're like, you know the rules. Don't go to fucking Camp Crystal Lake, and you'll be fine. Don't have sex at Camp Crystal Lake. Don't do drugs or drink at the lake and you'll be okay. You'll survive this film. Michael Myers. There's very little you can do to survive a Halloween film, you know?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: And I think that's what makes him scary, is he has no motivation. He's a silent deadly shape that is pure evil and will survive and continue coming after you.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: I mean, I think, I think that makes a lot of sense.
JULIA: Excellent. Well, that is a decisive win I would say for Michael Myers here. He really came out the gate strong and beat all of his opponents and we probably should have anticipated this.
ERIC: It felt like it was always gonna be one of the slashers, but I'm happy that it was Michael. JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: I feel like he is the one that is the scariest to me, of those three big ones.
JULIA: Yeah. And if you would like to hear me gush more about how much I love Michael Myers, and I think that he is the best horror movie villain of all time. Definitely check out Head Heart Gut. You can check it out at multicrew.club that is like our exclusive podcast for people who donate money to Multitude and you can hear me rant for about two hours about how much I love Michael Myers. And of course, we are going to post our bracket on our Instagram and on our Twitter. Please share with us the results that you have. Get into fights with your friends over who you think is going to win. I always love to hear people say that like oh, I posted this in my work slack and now everyone's arguing about who's better and I'm like, excellent. I've caused the chaos that I wanted to cause, that's what I'm here for.
ERIC: And do not watch Gingerdead Man, but do watch Mystery Science Theaters, Pod People episode.
JULIA: Also like I suggested, watch Prey on Hulu. Also very good.
ERIC: Watch everything else we've talked about.
JULIA: Yes, yeah, everything but Ginger—Gingerdead Man can, can move on. For sure.
ERIC: You could probably skip The Blob if you don't really care about a big blob.
JULIA: It's not for everyone. I get it. And remember listeners as you settle down to watch every single movie we talked about here on today's episode. Stay creepy.
ERIC: Stay cool.
JULIA: You got to do it for ones oh my gosh.
ERIC: I got to do it. I've never done it before.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude. productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!