Episode 309: The Monkey King and Boy Giant (with Van Hoang)
/We’re joined by author Van Hoang, who teaches us the story of the Monkey King, how Journey to the West MIGHT have been a romance novel, and how going through puberty turns every kid into a trickster spirit.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of trauma, puberty, crude jokes, misogyny, and arranged marriage.
Guest
Van Hoang’s first name is pronounced like the van in minivan. Her last name is pronounced “hah-wawng.” She earned her bachelor’s in English at the University of New Mexico and her master’s in library information science at San Jose State University. She was born in Vietnam, grew up in Orange County, California, and now resides in Los Angeles with her husband, kid, and two dogs. Girl Giant and the Monkey King is her debut novel, and its sequel Girl Giant and the Jade War came out in December, 2021.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Dead End: Paranormal Park on Netflix.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Exolore: Helping you imagine other worlds, but with facts and science! Every other week, astrophysicist/folklorist Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional worldbuilders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built.
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a news story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is episode 309 with Van Hoang. Van, welcome to the show.
VAN: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm like obsessed with you guys. I'm so happy to be here.
JULIA: Like I said before, I'm like, anytime someone's like, oh, yeah, I listened to the show and now I'm here. I'm like, oh, good, you stayed. Great. Excellent. I'm so glad. But we're so so happy to have you. And you're gonna be telling us a little bit about a story that I'm not super familiar with. And I'm really, really excited to learn about it. But first, how about we talk a little bit about your books? Because we're very excited to talk about them.
VAN: Yeah. Thank you. So my first book is called Girl Giant and the Monkey King. And it has a lot of Vietnamese mythology influence. It's about a very strong girl who develops like super strength, for like inexplicable reasons and causes a lot of problems in her life. So in order to get rid of it, she makes a deal with a trickster demon, God named The Monkey King. And then she gets, you know, like, absorbed into this world of magic and mythology that she didn't know existed and then kind of learns that magic is way more than it's worth. And yeah, I'm obsessed with the Monkey King. And the sequel to that book is out already. It's called Girl Giant and the Jade War.
JULIA: Incredible. And if you are listening to this episode, right now, there are links in the show notes where you can go and you can just buy those books or ask your library to go get those books like that would be great, wouldn't it? And as, as a librarian, Van, I know that you're probably like, yes, ask your library.
VAN: Yeah, I'm also a librarian. I work a lot with children, in the children's department, but I'm primarily an adult librarian. So I have like, you know, my, my feet in both worlds.
JULIA: Excellent. Is that why you chose middle grade as kind of an area of expertise here, let's say?
VAN: I don't actually know. So I kind of like fell into middle grade by mistake. I was just like writing in all ages. But I think because I wanted to write about the Monkey King. And he's such a silly character, that it kind of just fell very neatly into that like middle-grade voice.
JULIA: Excellent. I love about though, and, we've been talking to a few more middle grade, we usually like tend to interview authors who are like YA or adult. But we've been doing a lot more middle grades lately. And I'm very glad because these are the kinds of books that I wish I had grown up with, you know, like, when I was this age and would have been enjoying these books, so.
VAN: Yeah, I always say this. I've said it a few times. So people who like maybe have listened to a bunch of other things I've been in. Like, I feel like the middle grade is like those years where like, you're the most traumatized, you know. That's when you're like, about to go into puberty. And it's like, going to a different sort of school than what you're used to, in elementary, at least where I'm from. I feel like a lot of us haven't, like come like, had a reckoning with those years. And I feel like I think that's the reason a lot of middle-grade books are coming out now is that everyone's sort of like, oh, I need to, like address those concerns that like that, like cause problems in my life at that time, you know?
JULIA: Yeah, I like fully don't remember my middle school years at all, because they were traumatic. You're correct.
AMANDA: It's a self-protective mechanism. In the episode, we recorded earlier today. Before Julia and I are talking to you, I opened up the episode by saying, you know, wow, I just had a traumatic memory of when I was 12 in English class, and that does still color my life. So I mean, it's a really formative time.
VAN: Yes, exactly. Yeah.
JULIA: Before you kind of teach us a little bit about the Monkey King. I'm very curious as to what about the Monkey King story inspired you to write Girl Giant and the Monkey King.
VAN: Yeah, I'm just obsessed with the monkey king. Like, he's such a fun, silly character. But he's, like, inherently bad. And like, there was a point in my life where I felt like I was always getting in trouble. And like, you know, I grew up like, I was a good girl, you know, I was like, I obeyed my parents. I was, like, had like, a healthy dose of fear, of like authority. But like, I was, like, there was one point where I was just like, getting in trouble all the time. And I was so bad. And then I think that's what made me relate so much to the Monkey King, is that he is like a demon, you know. He was born a demon, but he, like tries so hard to redeem himself throughout most of his story. And yet he was always failing, but he always kept trying, and I don't know like I just really, really related to that, I guess I just really wanted to write about him and like how he would like help a girl I guess? In like middle— in middle grade during this time and like a contemporary setting, and I don't know it just all came together.
JULIA: I mean, that's a great point too, is that those kind of middle school years, the middle-grade years are very, like, you're just starting puberty, you're starting to like push against what society expects from you. You're trying to like test the boundaries of like what you can and can't do. So I feel like befriending a trickster during that time is very on-brand.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
JULIA: Incredible. I love that so much. So you grew up with stories about the Monkey King?
VAN: Yeah, I grew up watching this CCTV like, which is like a Chinese broadcast version of Journey to the West, which is the story of the Monkey King. And as far as like, what I remember growing up watching, that story focuses a lot more on the Monkey King after he had tried to become good. So his origin story is like, he is like he was born from a rock. And like the rock, there's like many different versions, because he shows up in like so many different Southeast Asian or just like Asian mythologies. But like in the version that I know, he was a rock that fell from like the heavens and dropped onto like, like, into the mortal world, but onto like a demon island. So like, technically, he's a God from the heavens, but because he hatched on this demon Island, he was then raised by demons. So he kind of— he was, he's kind of both. And at first, he was just almost like a normal monkey, like a normal monkey demon, like didn't have any powers. But he was just like, somehow smarter than all his other monkey brothers. So then one day, he was like, I'm sick of this, like, I want to learn more like I want to learn how to be human. So he flies out for the demon Island, and he finds like this Taoist Master, and the master teaches him how to be human. And then he also teaches him what's known as the 72 transformations, which is like basically just like magic, you know, like the ability to fly, become invisible, shapeshift and there's like, 72 of that, so I won't like to list all of them. But yeah, so it just becomes like, really, really powerful. And then even then, it's not enough. He wants to learn more. And like he— now—now that he's like, he learns how to be human. He wants to learn how to be a God. So he goes up to the heavens. They're basically like you're demon like you don't belong with us, like go away, but he just like wreaks havoc, and like just like, does everything that he can to get their attention. So finally, the Jade Emperor is like, okay, this monkey is not going away, we'll give him like a fake title. So they named him Master of the Horses. And the heavenly horses are like giant magical beasts, like, you know, bigger than elephants and powerful and almost like deities themselves. So they are not going to respect this monkey. And so they like treat him really, really badly, you know, so he gets like angry. And he basically like destroys the heavens, knocks out a bunch of buildings, and on his way out steals what's called like, the Pitches of Immortality, which like makes him invisible. Also the Pills of Immortality which like, which takes like eons and eons to create. He steals those two, drinks the heavenly wine, basically just like, like goes completely like, okay, if they don't want me to be good, I will be as bad as you know, they are making me out to be.
AMANDA: Sounding a lot like adolescence, like rebellion, like fine if that's how you're gonna cast me like, that's how I'll act.
VAN: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so tangent, but have you both seen the movie Turning Red on Disney Plus?
JULIA: Yeah
AMANDA: Yes.
VAN: It's so good I really love it. There's like a line where the girls are like, well, if they're thinking that we're bad anyway, you know what, then we might as well be bad. Like, we've been good all this time, like, and that reminded me a lot of the Monkey King. He was like, I tried to be good. And you didn't let me so here I go.
JULIA: So we're describing him as a demon. And obviously like as—as like, Westerners, I think like, you know, fire and brimstone demon. Like, it's the devil kind of thing. That's probably not the case in this story, right?
VAN: So yeah, so like, I dealt with it differently. But like, yes, our demons like in mythology, they're supposed to be like, bad. And like they—yeah, they just like are evil and wreak havoc. But like, there are also some portrayals where the demons are just like animal Spirits who are just like, living, you know, they're, like, especially the ones on the demon island where the Monkey King grew up. Like he—they were just like there, like, they were just living their lives on this island. I do make a case about that, eventually, because I think that demons have the ability to be good, sort of, like how the Monkey King has the ability to be good, so.
AMANDA: I mean, that makes sense.
JULIA: Yeah. And like, you know, there is kind of like this idea of, yes, the Monkey King, you know, I guess getting an education and then turning good, like, because he turned human. So I guess that opportunity is kind of available for everyone. I love that.
VAN: Yeah, that's a very interesting point that like, okay, you learn to be human. So now he's gonna try to be good. But then he learned how to be a God. So now he's gonna try to be bad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VAN: So yeah, after he is like after he leaves the heavens, he like goes into the hills where there's like a Book of the Dead, and he like crosses his name out of the Book of the Dead and crosses a bunch of his friend's names out of the Book of the Dead. So basically, now he's like, very, very immortal, because he's like, he's had all these immortal, like, peaches and pills. And now he's also like, my name is not in the Book of the Dead anymore. So like, I can't die ever, you know. So basically, it just becomes like, very, very powerful and convincible.
JULIA: This has very big like health magnets who try like all the different like, I'm gonna live forever, you know, like that kind of thing.
VAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: Oh yeah.
JULIA: Just that real like chaotic energy.
VAN: Yeah. Yeah. He's covered all his bases. He can't die anymore. Yeah, yeah. So then after that, he's just like, really, really bad. Like, he just goes crazy and pretends like a demon. He like gets together armies of demons and just goes around, like just being— being a bad person. And then I think like they said, like Gods and Monsters, they've been, like, teamed up with other demons to take him down. And he's like, you know, he's powerful. And he's now—he's invincible. So it's impossible. So what happens is, there's like this, like, magical weapon or magical, like magical items. One is like the golden headband. And another is like this cloak. Anyway, sorry, I don't know what that has to do with this story. But—
JULIA: It's just like, everyone's got a quest.
VAN: Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.
JULIA: That they have to find. It's always like a golden item or like the item of the Gods. And of course, you have to go get it because it proves how like cool and awesome you are.
VAN: Yeah. And then another iconic thing about the Monkey King is that he is known for his iron cudgel. So it's just like this, like metal staff, he steals that from the Sea Dragon of the East who didn't realize that it was like this huge magical weapon, it was basically just like, part of his, like, treasure trove, or like, jazz show, I guess. And he like, steals it. And then he learns that it like has the ability to like grow in size. And basically, it's very powerful, it's like 17,000 tons or something like that.
JULIA: Wow.
VAN: Yeah. And like, he's the only one who can wield it. And basically with that staff and like with his, like, magical powers, like he's really unstoppable. And it becomes so bad that the Gods like the Jade Emperor Guanyin, the Goddess of Mercy has to, like appeal to Buddha, who's like, you know, just like the most supreme being, but like, doesn't want to step in, you know, in mortal affairs, but like, because the Monkey King is like, so bad. He does step in, and his way to, like, defeat him was to make a deal with him. Where, like, if the Monkey King can travel to the end of the world, then Buddha will give him his place in the heavens, make him a God, you know, leave him alone. But if he can't, then they get to punish him however they want. So the Monkey King like, of course, it's like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the end of the world. So he travels really far, and he reaches the end of the world. And there are these five pillars, this part gets really close because he pees on the five pillars to be like, yeah. And then he comes back, and he's like, okay, like, I can be a God now and do whatever I want. But then it turns out that Buddha had tricked him and in fact, like, he had only traveled to Buddha's hand, which had, like, enormous. And the five pillars that he had peed on, were actually Buddha's fingers.
AMANDA: Oh my God.
JULIA: Oh that's very funny. Also, you don't think of Buddha tricking people all that often?
VAN: Yeah. You know, and then I guess the point about that is that like, even though the Monkey King is like, very powerful, super strong, has all this magic, you know, the— his biggest strength is like his trickery. And so in order to defeat him, you have to trick him, which I love. Like I've—I've always been obsessed with tricksters. You know, like Nancy and Loki. Like, yeah. So then after that, they put this golden headband on him. And basically what it does is like, causes him a lot of pain, unless he does what they say, which is like, so sad. And then they also like, shove him under the mount—this mountain for 500 years. So that's his punishment.
JULIA: Was thinking about what we [13:06] learned because there was so much [13:08] I love it. Okay, so I want to go back to this idea that like the only way you can win against a trickster is by tricking him because I feel like that is such a kind of classic overall, like, almost global trope in a way, where it's like, yes, the trickster is always going to win when you try to come at him with brute force. But when he's not expecting you to trick him, because you're like, oh, like, oh, I'm honorable and I would never tell a lie. That's when you're able to win against him.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: And I feel like that's the case with like Loki with Nancy, Coyote, like all of those trickster figures have these moments where someone outplayed them.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Like I much prefer like brains over brawn, you know. And I feel like that's like appealing to like a very human audience. Where like, you can never be as power—like physically powerful as a God, but you could possibly outsmart them, you know?
JULIA: That is true. I'm thinking too about like, Norse Mythology and how, just because you're like, I prefer brains over brawn, a lot of times, at least in Norse mythology, the like, trickster nature is coded as feminine? So Loki is portrayed as more feminine than some more masculine God like Thor, you know what I mean?
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: So it's really interesting that I'm trying to think of it's like because we're all like kind of femme people, we prefer that kind of trickster character. Or if it's just like, in general, like society has gone away from like, let me like, muscle my way into a situation and now we're like, yes, I can win the situation with words. Excellent.
VAN: Yeah. I love that take because I have been told that like, when people don't know the Monkey King, and I'm showing them like pictures or talking about them, they're always like, oh, he's like—he kind of feminine, because like, he does this thing, like in the TV series. He does this thing where he like, [14:58] his eyelashes, he's like almost like he's flirty, you know. So that's like very interesting. Like that take on it. But I totally agree.
JULIA: I love like stumbling into a thing. I'm like, oh, I wonder if this makes sense.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: And then confirming it for me. Thank you.
VAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: Oh my gosh, I love Van, you have a—is that a fox mug that you are drinking out of?
VAN: Yes.
JULIA: And it got a little sweater.
VAN: Yeah, I am—I'm obsessed with foxes. My next book is actually about like a nine-tailed fox. And this was a gift from my agent because she knows that I really love foxes. And there's a fox demon in the Girl Giant series too.
AMANDA: Famous trickster spirit.
JULIA: Nothing more trickster than a fox. I feel like.
VAN: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's probably why I'm drawn to them too.
AMANDA: Yeah. And it's—It's so elegant. And I think to like whether you're, you know, a person underestimated for lots of reasons, because of your size, because of your appearance because of your gender. Because you are a bookish kid, and not necessarily a sporty kid. The idea that you can be kind of outclassed and outmatched in so many ways, and yet find a little fulcrum to kind of flip the narrative or the expected outcome, is so elegant and so wonderful.
VAN: Yeah, exactly. And then I think the reason that, like so many of us are drawn to the Monkey King is because he spent most of his like existence as like an outsider, you know, he never felt like he belonged. And then, even when he like, finally found his home, like, he's still so different from everyone.
JULIA: And he has to fight tooth and nail for a position that he should have been like, given in the first place.
VAN: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Again, I feel like that's like very much like, and I can't speak to this because I'm not, but like the diaspora and like, being an immigrant child, and like having to kind of create that space for yourself in a new place. And like, especially, because we're talking middle grade, like in a new school or something like that. I feel like there is a lot to say there.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
JULIA: Oh, that's awesome.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Again, like this is such a good book for like, you know, for anyone, but also like, for a very, like, specific kind of group of people. And I think that is great. And I think we need more books like that. We don't need like the one size fits all for books like that's silly to assume.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
JULIA: Yeah, of course.
VAN: During this time, it was like ancient China. And there are these Buddhist texts that come out and they want the Gods, they want to introduce the West to the Buddhist texts, and they find like this monk, who's like, very pure and good of heart, and they're gonna task him with taking these texts over to the West. That's why it's called Journey to the West. But he's like a weakling. And honestly, like when I was reading, so I read. I read the original Journey to the West, in my research for this book, and he's like, almost useless. Okay, so like, because he's like, has no like, skills, or like smarts or anything, he's just pure. They're like, okay, well, we need to protect this guy. And the best person to do it is the monkey king because he's like, powerful and he's also like a slave to us now that he has the golden headband. So they're like, okay, Monkey King go help this like monk. And then the monk also has like two other assistants. They're like a pig demon and a bull demon. But they're good. I don't know like what their explanation was. Because in Journey to the West, like demons are bad, like—it's there's no like, gray area like they're just bad. So like, yeah, I don't—I don't actually know like the origin of that, why the pig demon and the bull demon get, you know, to sent on this like journey for good.
JULIA: This has real like modern fantasy vibes which first off I can't believe Journey to the West created the cinnamon roll character. Incredible, truly, truly wild. Uh, but it does have like, a very like, this person is important or like this child is important. And now this like group of like, hardcore Gods and demons and stuff has to go accompany him to a place like, I love that.
VAN: Yeah, yeah. It's definitely like a classic quest story.
JULIA: It totally is. And I love that.
VAN: They go on their journey. And it's very like episodic, at this point where like, every like few chapters, or scenes or like episodes, they come across a very evil demon. And of course, the Monkey King always defeats them. My like gripe with the original book was that like, the monk was supposed to be like this, like a supreme being, and everyone loved him. And basically, he's the reason that the Monkey King becomes good because he wants this monk's approval. But like in the book, like, there were so many moments where the Monkey King would be like, okay, like, stay here, I'm gonna go defeat the demon-like, do not move from this circle of protection. And then like, as soon as the Monkey King leaves, the monk would like step out of a circle and like, get in trouble. And so then the Monkey would have to like rush back, and like, save him and defeat the demons. And like, I was like, uh this monk. So I don't know what that says. Like, I don't know what—they would—what message they were trying to say in that, but.
JULIA: Well, Van, are you sure that this isn't a romance? Because this— it's hidden all the bits of a romance novel now?
AMANDA: It really is.
VAN: Yeah. You know what? I think there was—yeah, there was some romance involved in that.
JULIA: Amanda, you're a romance novel expert. Is this hitting all the bits?
AMANDA: You guys have yet to prove that it's not a romance novel.
VAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: What I'm hearing is, basically it. Yeah.
VAN: Exactly. But yeah, so then after that, it's just kind of like, it just becomes like this quest journey where eventually they, they, you know, they're defeating all these demons. They're getting the text over to the West, and then they succeed in the end. But most of it It's about like the Monkey King's struggle for like, am I good? Am I bad? I love this guy. I want to—I want to be his friend. I want to prove him right. But like, I'm also bad by nature, I don't know. And then the whole time, he's just like rooting for him to be good. And he's always—he fails constantly. But in the end, he like, proves himself to be a good guy. But I was always very fascinated with him when he was a villain.
JULIA: I mean, this is just like, I'm seeing the groundwork for so many like modern-day tropes now. Like first off, like the kind of episodic nature of the story is very like Monster of the Week. I guess it's a good way to describe it. And I'm sure like, there's a bunch of adaptations of Journey to the West, where is basically a Monster of the Week-esque television series.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Am I wrong there?
VAN: No, you're not wrong. Yeah, definitely.
JULIA: Because I'm thinking Monster of the Week, my immediate thought is like, oh, well, you know, like, Spike from Buffy is a good example of like, someone who struggles with their like nature, and like wanting to be good, but being evil and trying to make themselves good for a person that they love, like, get lays out so perfectly. I'm like, how is this the same thing?
VAN: Yeah, I was reading like this book on craft, like writing craft. And the author made a good point where like, we love a good character, but we also love a character who's trying to be good, like much more, because we were rooting for them, you know? And then it goes back to like, for me when I was like, a bad kid, but I really wanted to be good, but I didn't know how, you know. So like, that mistake—it like, hits that part of me where it's like, yeah, I totally relate to that. Like, I'm not good all the time. But I want to be, you know.
JULIA: Absolutely and I—again, like that just— it aligns so well with the kind of middle grade, middle school experience that I'm just—I'm blown away like, the more you tell me about this, I'm like, well, obviously that's like a story that the middle schoolers would benefit from hearing.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: So then, I would love to hear more about the Monkey King and just about Girl Giant, and the Monkey King and Girl Giant and the Jade Wars, but we're going to quickly go grab a refill.
VAN: Yeah. Alright.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. It is a really crisp, beautiful autumn day here as I'm recording and it makes me really happy that I get to share these kinds of days with you. I hope your day is beautiful and crisp and you can smell a little bit of falling leaves and maybe some smoke out in the yard today. That's what I'm feeling at least. Welcome to our newest patrons, Spooky Lore, and Porsha. You join the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Iron Havoc, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sara, Scott and Zazi and of course our legend level patrons Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Cicuta Maculata, Clara, Ginger Spurs Boi, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty and Bea Me Up Scotty who every day it is the perfect crisp autumn day for them if that's their favorite day. Personally, it's my favorite kind of day. 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JULIA: So then we—we love a cocktail here, and I feel like Monkey King, we saw him drinking some divine wine earlier, is probably also a cocktail fan. What is your favorite cocktail? What have you been imbibing lately?
VAN: Yeah, I love a good Kombucha like a hard Kombucha but that's not really a cocktail.
JULIA: Okay, It counts.
VAN: Yeah. I think it's because like Kombucha is technically good for you so it makes me feel a little better. But recently I had a Soju Margarita like a lychee Soju Margarita.
AMANDA: Woah.
VAN: And it was delicious and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it.
JULIA: We had a guest on who kind of gave us the history of Soju. And like the mythological origins of Soju. That was a great episode. So now I'm like, every time I see Soju in a store like I have to get that.
VAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: It'll make me happy. I know—well.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: So that is great. I love that. Ooh and like, lychee with Soju, I gotta make one of those.
VAN: Yeah, it was really good.
JULIA: [30:20] really good cocktail for just in general.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: I was about to say for summer, but I realized your episodes coming out like in the middle of winter, so I'm not gonna say that.
VAN: Yeah. Have you read the book Girly Drinks by Mallory O'Meara
JULIA: I have it on my list to take out from my library. But yeah, it looks incredible. And Mallory O'Meara is like such a great writer that I—I need to pick it up. ASAP.
VAN: I love her podcast too, Reading Glasses. But yeah, but Girly Drinks is about like the history of like, you know, alcohol, but like from a feminist take. And it's like fascinating. Just learning about like, the ways that history has followed, like the oppression of women. And yeah, I really recommend it.
JULIA: Sure has.
AMANDA: Yeah, it didn't start with the feminization of the Cosmos on Sex and the City like that. That was merely one chapter in the book.
VAN: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
AMANDA: One of my husband's favorite drinks is a Cosmos. So no one should think any drink is gender coded. That's silly.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Though all men seem to like IPAs. So I don't know. Like, I've just kind of like, a weird balance between the two.
AMANDA: That's pretty masculine.
VAN: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: So, Van I'm so glad that you, like took the time to share with us the story of Journey to the West, and also the Monkey King. We kind of transitioned into there by me asking you, hey, did you grow up with the Monkey King? So can you tell us now that we know the story? Can you tell us a little bit about like, what it was like hearing the Monkey King story when you were younger?
VAN: Yeah. So I grew up watching um yeah, the CCTV version of Journey to the West. And I think that came out in like, 1986. And then they rebooted it in like, 1992, basically, from when I was like, six years old, and adulthood, I guess I was like, watching the series. That story focuses a lot more on him being good. And it was very episodic, where like, every week we're gonna find a demon. And the Monkey King is gonna go face some sort of internal, you know, conflict about himself, like as a demon or a God, you know? And it was, yeah, like, very fascinating just growing up with these stories. It was originally made in China, but I'm Vietnamese, so we watched the Vietnamese dubbed version. So like, it was, like, I just grew up with all these like Vietnamese voice actors all the time. Because my mom was like, so obsessed with like, Chinese dramas, and they were always dubbed in Vietnamese. I just like could recognize like, the different Vietnamese actors.
JULIA: Did you like that scene in Turning Red, where they're watching the Chinese drama all together?
VAN: Oh my gosh. I really [32:40] so much.
JULIA: It was—I was like that's extremely cute.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: And that's me with my mom, but it's below deck, the reality show, and not Chinese probably.
VAN: Yeah, for us. Chinese dramas are like always on the background.
JULIA: It's like a you know, like, if you grow up in a home that does like soap operas and telenovelas and stuff like that, like, I feel like that's very much like, of course, it's playing in the background, It's grandma's story.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Uh, I love that. And I know, there's been an incredible amount of adaptation for Journey to the West, like a truly incredible amount, which I feel like more people should know the story. Like, I feel like a little embarrassed that I don't know the story as well as I should. But it's great that like, it is a story that is, you know, spreading more and people are becoming more and more familiar with it.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: I'm very curious to ask then about Boy Giant because that's something I never heard of before. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
VAN: Yeah. So Boy Giant, I actually didn't know about him either, until I was like researching about for this book, because like, not a lot. There weren't—there wasn't a lot of literature out there about like Vietnamese mythology. I kind of came across his story by accident. And I just found it very fascinating that like, he's like this boy who grew up in a small village. And like, as a baby, he couldn't walk or talk for like a really long time until he was like four or five, he still like didn't show any signs of development. But then one day, like his village gets attacked, and inexplicably, he like eats a bunch of rice, like grows really big and strong and powerful. And like he defeats the invaders. And then for that, he's like, made a God, you know, a sense to the heavens. When I was reading about him. I also learned that he's actually one of the four Immortals like capital I, that had done something, like sacrifice themselves in some way, and then ascended the heavens. And then I was just like, very fascinated with like, these four models in you know, Vietnamese mythology. One of them is the Mother Goddess, she's actually still worshipped today, like in areas of Vietnam. And you know, I just— I just find that so interesting. And like, I'm so—like, almost ashamed that like, I didn't know about it, you know, so it was like, I think more people should know about these stories. So that's why I wanted to write about history specifically.
JULIA: That's awesome, and kind of talking a little bit more about living traditions and stuff in, in both your book and in the story for uh The Journey to the West. Buddhism plays a surprisingly large role in the stories and like, knowing the religious history of like China and East Asia as a whole, that makes sense. But I guess I just like didn't put two and two together being like, oh, the Buddha shows up here. And that kind of threw me for a loop.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Did you have to do a lot of like, research on Buddhism in writing the book? Because like, I'm curious as to like, what part of Buddhism you learned about outside of its influence in the story of the Monkey King?
VAN: Yeah, yeah. So I am not Buddhist myself. So like, I just tried to be very as sensitive as possible. And then as an—as within the context of the story, I treated it as like, part of the mythology, and not so much as a religion. Yeah, it is fascinating that Buddhism shows up in mythology when it really is a religion. I would like to visit temples and just like, learn about their history, and even when like, there's a temple really close to me, it's beautiful. But when you go there, it's almost like all the like, the different sections that they have. It's almost treated as like a museum, like an exhibit, which like, I wouldn't find that like in a church, you know.
JULIA: Yeah.
VAN: It's very interesting how, like, closely Buddhism lies with mythology.
JULIA: Yeah, that's, that's awesome. When we talk about kind of more Western stories and cultures, like, particularly when you talk about like fairy tales, there's a lot of kind of overlay of Christianity over things that were probably very clearly pagan. So for example, in the story of Tatterhood, there is a part in the story where it's like, oh, all of the the witches and the demons are out because it's Christmas. And we're like, that—I —probably wasn't Christmas, originally, when the story was told.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: But you kind of see this, like, oh, well, now, this kind of cultural thing has superseded a thing that came before it. And I'm curious if like the role of the Buddha in the story of the Monkey King was filled by a different character before Buddhism spread to China.
VAN: Yeah, you know, that's like—yeah, I think that could be the case. Because like, nobody really knows the true origins of the Monkey King, but he pops up in Indian culture, too. So I wonder if like, you know, if it's like a different God or yeah, like if it's totally different character altogether.
JULIA: Or it could be one where it—I— again like I'm not sure what the timeline is looking like here. It could have been a story that spread from India to China, along with the spread of Buddhist.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: I think would be really interesting. I'm sure someone like knows this for a fact.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: That can tell me about it. But like, that's so interesting. I love being able to see the physical spread of stories and culture. That's one of my favorite things.
VAN: Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating.
AMANDA: This is so fascinating. I'm like bringing up tabs, the things to Google later. Like all of these episodes are always an invitation to learn more and read more and I— you're definitely succeeded.
JULIA: So you mentioned earlier dragons and I got really excited because you mentioned like a dragon horde and that's where he got his iron cudgel from, and I was like, oh, yeah, dragons have hordes in every culture. I love that. The universality of dragons is fantastic. I know that there is a dragon in Girl Giant and the Monkey King as well. Did you like to pull from specific dragon stories in including that dragon? Or was it like, okay, here's the like, blueprint of what a dragon is? This one is specifically for mine, for my story.
VAN: Yeah, I totally made up this dragon. He's fine. Yeah, he's my dragon, although, like his physical description is based on Haku from Spirited Away. I'm obsessed with that movie. I—you know, but other than that, like he's, you know, he's his own characters own person. But then you do meet like his family later in the second book. But yeah, like I—I am—I love dragons. I was doing a school visit and the— the question was like, what's the difference between like a Western dragon and an Eastern dragon came up, and they totally got the answer, right, that I didn't know myself. But they were like, you know, Eastern dragons are the like, they're there to teach a lesson. And they are like agents of like, good and purity and like the heart. And Western dragons are just there to like, attack you. Like they're just monsters, you know.
JULIA: They're just there to fuck shit up, so.
VAN: Yeah, exactly. And like, I was like, wow, that's, like, very insightful. Like, I didn't know that. I was just like, dragons, like, they're cool. You know.
JULIA: I love a good dragon. The western Dragon is almost always like a barrier for a hero to overcome or like protecting an item that that hero is trying to get.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: And it's very much—all about like fire and violence and like, you know, stopping the hero's journey, for lack of a better word.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: I love how you described it, or how those kids described it as like the Eastern dragons are there to be a mentor, to teach a lesson like things are usually like very good and come with dragons until you know sometimes they're not.
VAN: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Awesome. I love that so so much.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: I'm reading your, The Beautiful Kirkus review that they did on the book which I'm very pleased with.
VAN: Thank you.
JULIA: But the way that they described it, and I'm curious if you want to like talk about this a little if you don't, totally fine. That you mentioned that the book incorporates portrayals of racism, belonging, identity, and intergenerational differences that ring true. And so I would love to talk about the latter one, which is the intergenerational differences, and how the story of the Monkey King as you grew up with, differs maybe from the story that your parents grew up with, and then maybe how the way the story you plan on telling to your child will differ.
VAN: I guess my parents would have also—yeah because the—the series that I watched didn't come out until they were obviously older. So I don't know. Like, yeah, this is a tough one.
JULIA: It might require you to go ask your parents being like, so how's the story different?
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: But that's totally, totally fine. How about we think about, like, how you're going to tell the story differently now to your child, if at all?
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Or if it's just gonna be a retelling of the way that you heard it, which I think is also beautiful and brilliant.
VAN: I took a lot of liberties with the Monkey King story, especially because I was more interested in him being a bad guy than a good guy. And so, totally, like, change that up. But I think that's okay. Because like, mythology exists to help us, you know, during our current time, so I would definitely not to be like, oh my God, like all about me, but like, I would teach my kid like my version.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VAN: I don't want him to, like, have that moment where he's like, Well, I'm like, they keep calling me a bad guy, so I'm just gonna be a bad guy, you know. Like, I want him to learn, like the different nuances between like, good and bad. And like, you know, sometimes you're good, and sometimes you're bad. And like, it's okay, like, you can still strive to be good. I would definitely teach him like that version of the Monkey King. But yeah, like the intergenerational differences is like, so fascinating. Because I think my parents would definitely be more interested in the good version, of course, like, they wanted to teach me like the good version of the Monkey King, like, obey your elders, like, don't question the monk, do what he says, you know, and then I did you know, as a kid, like, that's—I just watched the show religiously, like, had no questions about it being problematic until I was writing this book, and was like, wait a minute, like, you can't just obey this useless monkey, you know, like, he doesn't like to know any better. Like, it's like, he's just leading you down the wrong path, too. So yeah, I would definitely, yeah, I want to try to teach kids to start questioning, you know, those things, instead of just like blindly following, like, what they're told is good, you know?
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, tradition, is only as useful as the lessons that it teaches. And so if you decide like, the tradition of the Monkey King that you want to pass along to your child is one where it's question authority, and you can, like, you know, you will find your path is like, that's great. You don't have to teach the same lessons that your parents taught you, you could teach the lessons that you found most useful in life.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
JULIA: Yeah, no, I love that. And I think that's something that we see often in fairy tales. A lot of times when we're telling fairy tales in a modern society, we're not teaching the lessons that were inherently like the point when those stories were being told, right?
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Like, if you look at the Beauty and the Beast story, that was more about like, hey, do your family a favor and get married to this guy that you've never met before so that it can benefit the family. That's not what we think of when we think about the Beaty and the Beast story now. The Beauty and the Beast story now is like, oh, yes, beauty lies below the surface.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: You know?
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: So like, I think that we can take any story, any fairy tale any, like epic, and we can apply the things that we want to it in the retelling. And I am very, very glad to see that, like, you're doing that. I think that's awesome.
VAN: Yeah. Thank you. I am— I'm always like, afraid of what the reaction will be when, like, they realize that like, I totally changed like the second half, or, you know, as a Monkey King story, but yeah, like, I—I have to, like constantly give myself permission to keep doing that.
JULIA: Yeah, but like the story is for everyone, it doesn't have to be like we have to keep telling this.
VAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Like there are so many people who— who are going to be retelling the story. You deviating from the set path is not the worst thing to happen in the world. You know what I mean?
VAN: Yeah. Yeah.
AMANDA: And what was the reception to the book like? Because the first book is out you published a sequel. What surprised you? What delighted you about putting out a book?
VAN: So I try not to read the reviews.
AMANDA: Smart. Healthy.
VAN: But mostly, It's like, kids just telling you like, oh thank you, you know for writing this book. I really, really related to Tom's story about like, not fitting in and—
AMANDA: Oh.
VAN: It's so interesting because like it's called Girl Giant and the Monkey King. And it's like about like, the main character is a girl. But like so many boys have come up to tell me that it's like their favorite book, and they read it so many times. And like, I don't know if that's like the Monkey King part of it that's doing that or it was just like, you know, they're just learning to empathize with this girl. Like, you know, I don't know, it's been very surprising. Like the reception has been good. I did accidentally see a review where somebody was angry that you know, this was not the story of the Monkey King.
JULIA: You've all heard the story of the Monkey King, you can hear a different tale. For once.
VAN: There's like an Australian adaptation of the Monkey King on Netflix like, it's a series I watched, like the first season, but they totally changed it, you know, they, they turned his watch into something like very different, which is like, you know, maybe like for that culture or for whoever loves that show, I'm sure it's like amazing to them. But like, I really wanted to keep like the essence, like the silliness of the Monkey King. And in that sense, like, I kept him very similar to the version that I grew up with.
AMANDA: I mean, that's why modern fairy tales resonate right because there is the version that seems canonical to you, or that at least you heard growing up. And then adaptations and reimaginings pull out the essence of the character like you're identifying your silliness. Maybe it's another adaptation, wanting to focus on another aspect of the character or the story.
VAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: And through that constellation of adaptation, like that's just the thing that each author pulled out, it doesn't make the other thing wrong, or one right and one wrong. It's saying like, hey, let's lift up and examine. It's like doing a portrait of somebody's nose doesn't mean that they don't have a face. It means if you're focusing on the nose, like, that's okay.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love that. I love that explanation. Yeah.
JULIA: And that's a good thing to have people writing about certain, like historical characters, for instance. A lot of times people will get criticism being like, oh, well, you spent so much time focusing on this part of that person's history, but you didn't even touch on that person's part of the history. And like, that's the point. Each individual person is looking for certain aspects of that story that they want to tell. And like, no one is ever going to be entirely exhaustively complete when it's telling any story.
VAN: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. Those people who leave reviews saying that's not the Monkey King story, too bad.
AMANDA: Yeah, too bad come at us.
VAN: It was just the one and it was like by accident. But yeah, I—I— like I'm very careful not to like see reviews. It just—it just never feels good. You know, even the good ones.
JULIA: The good never outweighs the bad. I find in my experience, you're like, oh, 10 people said nice things. And when people said a bad thing, it wasn't even that bad. Cut down for the rest of my life.
VAN: Yeah, I know.
JULIA: It's rough. I get it. So Van, thank you so so much for teaching us about the Monkey King and telling us all about your books. Can you go ahead and tell people both where they can find you on the internet and where they can order your books from?
VAN: Yeah, my website is authorvanhoang.com. And then I'm on Instagram and Twitter at I am Van Hoang. I'm also on Goodreads and you can buy my books like wherever you get your books, you know, like support indie bookstores, booksapp.org. That sort of thing. And then also check it out from the library, you know. As a librarian, I'm always like, excited to see when my books aren't available because that means that kids are reading those.
JULIA AND AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: I love that. Well, thank you again so, so much and listeners remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: Kristianne
Editor: KM