Episode 270: Advice from Folklore VII (with Dr. Moiya McTier)

The gods have a lot in store for us this week. Amanda talks about being dragged out of the “dank woods”, Moiya suggests finding a third beaker, and Julia gets marriage advice from Hades of all people. 

Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of spiders, animal death, incest, death, depression, grief, family death, ableism, war, and animal violence. 

Guest

Dr. Moiya McTier is a New York-based astrophysicist who studies planets outside of our solar system. She’s also a folklorist who specializes in using science and logic to build fictional worlds. You can hear all about the worlds she’s built on her podcast, Exolore, where she imagines, discusses, and reviews fictional worlds, often with expert guests. You can learn more about Moiya and her work on her website, moiyamctier.com.

Housekeeping

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- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends A Starstruck Odyssey from Dimension 20. 

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Transcript

AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.

JULIA: And I'm Julia.

DR. MOIYA: And I'm Moiya.

JULIA: Yay, Moiya is here.

AMANDA: And this is another installment of Advice from Folklore. Yay!

JULIA: Yay! Dr. Mctier, Dr. Mctier here again. If only I was better at rhyming, I could have made that into here and Mctier would have been perfect. It would have been wonderful.

DR. MOIYA: I still loved it. It was such a nice little jingle.

JULIA: I love a song, get things going.

AMANDA: And I love that we can set aside an hour-ish of our day to think about what the gods want for us. And I would love to bring to our Tribunal today, our Trinity, our mother, sister, best friend, goddess for you of how to set boundaries with my family without feeling like I'm being selfish and a pain which comes to us from Caitlyn.

JULIA: Amanda, have you been watching a lot of Survivor lately just because you've mentioned the word tribunal?

AMANDA: Julia, I did indeed find a way to begin Australian Survivor: Blood versus Water.

JULIA: Whoa!

AMANDA: Which premiered, as of this recording, yesterday in Australia. I'm just riding the high. I'm riding the high. Moiya has shared a photo of Cosmo in the slack. Like, I-- I couldn't be more excited.

DR. MOIYA: Good things happening.

JULIA: I do need to ask what the concept for Blood versus Water is very quickly and then we'll answer this question.

AMANDA: Well, Julia, it does involve two tribes titled Blood and Water and basically its family members. So, it's a mix of, like, returning cast members and family members that each of them brought on, but then also just some people who are new to the show. And I'm like, how do they decide whose blood and whose water? Like, one of them is clearly the protagonist and one of them is clearly the B plot. In some cases, they're celebrities. In some cases, they're regular people, but it's-- it's very interesting. This promises to be a very interesting season of Australian Survivor. Australian Survivor is just longer, bigger, better than American Survivor, I'm gonna say it right now. And I'm just-- I'm riding that high.

DR. MOIYA: Well, if you can survive in Australia, that's a lot more impressive than surviving in America.

AMANDA: Yeah, they also show the temperature during the day and I do have the Celsius to Fahrenheit converter on my phone to be like, "That is 110 degrees Fahrenheit. Woweeeee!"

DR. MOIYA: Mhmm. And I just listened to and podcast episode about arachnology with an arachnologist who spends her day --

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: -- literally holding black widow spiders and the podcaster asked her, "So, are you afraid of spiders?" The only one she said was a spider that lives in Australia.

JULIA: Yeah.

AMANDA: That's where all the scariest ones are.

JULIA: Scariest spiders, scariest snakes. Scariest things overall. Well, Amanda, it's a good thing that we're talking about Blood versus Water as like, the blood of the brotherhood is stronger than.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: The water, the womb, which I think is the original phrase.

AMANDA: Which I also don't get because like, isn't the Water Tribe then just weaker by default? Who knows? But we all three of us know firsthand as to many, many of the gods how setting boundaries with family can be a hell of a thing.

JULIA: Yeah. Well, luckily, I do have someone to channel here so...

AMANDA: Yes.

JULIA: Once upon a time, my father asked me to do something that I simply could not do. He was impatient and wanted to move on in his time of grief, and I was the answer to his problem, but I simply could not. But I found it too difficult to tell my father No, that he was crossing a line. So I tried to trick him to work around the issue rather than standing firm and setting the boundaries that would have made us both happier. Perhaps if I had told him No, that I had expressed my discomfort rather than making sacrifices in order to make him feel better. I would not have been driven from my home. I was fortunate to have support but I do know how hard it is to stand firm, to say no, to create boundaries that I would not allow anyone to cross. And yes, when your parents have given you everything, it is even harder, but it is for the best to create these boundaries. You are not selfish or a pain. You are a person just as the members of your family are. You will make mistakes and hurt just as they will, but with no clear boundaries, those mistakes and pain will just continue to happen. You must care for your own wounds and put on the armor of boundaries to protect yourself and your family will simply have to do the same. May your armor be resplendent, unlike mine. Not that I'm complaining sincerely, Donkeyskin.

DR. MOIYA: I love Donkeyskin.

AMANDA: Oh, Julia. I want this as a screenprint.

JULIA: So, I don't think we've talked about the story of Donkeyskin on the podcast yet, so I'm going to give you guys a brief summary of– of what's up. In the story of Donkeyskin, there is a king and a queen who are quite rich and they have a daughter and they even have a donkey that shits gold. Things are great for them. But one day, the Queen dies after making the king promise that he will not marry again until he finds a woman whose beauty and attributes are equal to hers. After some years of grieving and waiting, the king finally decides that he would like to take another wife but as he searched for the right partner, it became clear to him at least that no woman could fit the promise that he made to his wife except for one, his daughter.

AMANDA: Ugh.

DR. MOIYA: Oh, don't like that.

JULIA: Yeah, not great. The daughter obviously, not into that. as well, so she goes to her fairy godmother who I know gave us advice last time when we were channeling and the fairy godmother tells her that she must make a bunch of impossible demands rather than making it clear that she doesn't want to marry her father.

AMANDA: I see.

JULIA: So, she asks for a dress that's bright as the sun, a dress with the colors of the moon, a dress made of all the colors of the sky, and then finally, the height of the donkey that shits gold, which is like a big sacrifice for her father to make because that's why their kingdom is so wealthy.

AMANDA: A cow as white as milk, et cetera, et cetera.

JULIA: Exactly. Yeah, but the king does all of these things and the princess returns back to the fairy godmother who is anticipating that this was going to happen and gives her a chest for all of her beautiful dresses and then tells her that she needs to wear the Donkeyskin as a disguise.

AMANDA: Sure.

JULIA: So, she flees the kingdom, she finds a royal farm, which I love the idea of a royal farm, and she gets a job working in the kitchen, so she would wear her Donkeyskin and people believed her to be quite ugly. But in the privacy of her own rooms, she would wear those beautiful gowns and then one day the prince saw her through the keyhole, falls in love with her.

DR. MOIYA: Classic.

JULIA: He quite literally becomes sick with longing and declares that only a cake baked by Donkeyskin would cure him. And when she's baking this cake for him, one of her rings falls off into the cake and he finds it and he declares that he will only marry the woman who the ring fits in classic Cinderella style.

AMANDA: Sure.

JULIA: Other women try it on, only fits Donkeyskin. She reveals herself in like one of her beautiful gowns and the prince's parents are like, super thrilled about it. And they wed and when Donkeyskin visits her father after the marriage, she finds out her father has married another beautiful widow and everyone is happy.

DR. MOIYA: Good.

AMANDA: Wow.

DR. MOIYA: It wraps up nicely.

JULIA: Yeah. And like, I feel like the moral is, at least in the sense of the king, if you would just waited, you would have found another pretty woman. You didn't have to marry your daughter, my guy.

AMANDA: Yeah, what was-- what was underlying that and be like, "Oops, sorry, that's the only option available to me." But I'm surprised and impressed that nobody kind of like, dies or suffers for the rest of their life in this story.

JULIA: I know. Pretty impressive.

DR. MOIYA: No one has to get any toes cut off.

JULIA: Yeah, it's a real true and they all lived happily ever after.

DR. MOIYA: Good for them.

JULIA: Which is nice. So, I chose Donkeyskin because I think Donkeyskin is someone who learned from the mistakes of not setting boundaries. If she had just told her father outright and firmly. "Hey, no. I don't want to marry you. This is kind of ridiculous that you're asking me. I'm sure there's another woman who exists in the world that is as beautiful and has as nice attributes as my mother did, but it's weird that you want to marry me specifically." I know that it's like, really difficult and like, coming from a place where your parents are the king and queen. And they've like, literally given you everything that you could possibly want in life, it's probably very hard to tell those parents no. But again, like Donkeyskin said, there are also people who are having feelings and like, might be hurt by the things that you say, so you feel like you have to be cautious. But at the same time, their humanity and their feelings getting hurt is not an excuse for your feelings to get hurt or your boundaries to be crossed.

DR. MOIYA: Absolutely, yeah. I keep returning to this thought in my head, what they say on an airplane, which I have recently been on for the first time in a long time. And they say to put your mask on before you help anyone else. And you really do have to, you can't be a good family member to your family, chosen or blood related, if you don't feel like your whole self. If you feel like you're holding something back or letting people take advantage of you so you have to take care of yourself and set your own boundaries if you want to be. It's like the opposite of selfish, it's selfless to take care of yourself before others.

JULIA: Mhmm.

AMANDA: It is. And Moiya, I wish that that thought worked for me. But the kind of fucked up truth is that the way that I make myself more comfortable setting boundaries is framing it through a lens of taking care of others. And yes, I'm learning about codependence in therapy, but the act of setting boundaries with people is a really generous one. It's teaching people how to take care of you, how to relate to you, how to love you better. It's giving them a manual and saying "Hey, it might be-- it might be strange that you have to like, use these strange, like, screws and nails that are all different sizes and seem like it should be done in an opposite order, but trust me, it shouldn't be. Like, these are my quirks. I am telling you how to love me, I'm telling you how to take care of me. I'm telling you how to be a good friend, coworker, lover, whatever it is." And that was the sort of like, mental gymnastics that allowed me to say, "No, no, let me tell you why this doesn't work for me and what would instead."

JULIA: I like that you've turned it into an Ikea how to, which it's honestly-- I wish that more people told me "Hey, here's the best way of taking care of me" and rather than it kind of like, being a guessing game. Being like, what's going to upset you? I don't want to say that thing that upsets you if you just tell me, you know, what that line is that I shouldn't cross then I won't do it. You know what I mean?

DR. MOIYA: Mhmm. Mhmm.

AMANDA: Yeah. And you know, people don't always see it that way. And I'm not trying to pretend that they do and sometimes, you know, people will take it as a criticism or an insult or like Caitlyn said, you know, they might call you selfish or a pain. They might mirror back to you the worries that you have, but sometimes they won't. And each time that you ask for it and you practice, like if it really is a skill you develop and it really is something that maybe two years from now they will look back and think "Wow, I really learned a lot there" or "Wow, I wish I had reacted differently." You are helping them learn that this is something that people should do and that they ought to do for themselves too. So, I'm sorry in advance for every time that it's hard, but I promise you it's really worth it.

JULIA: Setting boundaries is hard. But like you said, Amanda, it is like, super worth it and it is worth teaching people that not only you have boundaries, but they can have boundaries as well.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, it's a good lesson for everyone to learn.

JULIA: Yeah. Thanks Donkeyskin.

AMANDA: Thanks Donkeyskin. Well, here's another question. This comes from Lena who writes, "I struggle with depression and it's affecting my relationship. My partner is trying his best to be there and support me but I'm afraid that there will be long term consequences. Any advice from the gods?"

DR. MOIYA: Yes. Lena, we have some advice for you, but I couldn't find a god to channel this message. So hopefully, you'll be pleased with who is giving you this advice. Hello there Lena. I won't lie to you. It isn't always easy to support a person going through a rough time. It takes a lot of energy and it rarely gleans any sort of glory that comes with accomplishing something major. There are absolutely long term consequences but sweet Lena, who says those consequences have to be bad? As a supporter, I've sacrificed and toiled, but I've grown as a person and a friend. I'm stronger now, for lending your strength to someone else is its own kind of workout. I know when to prioritize my own needs and how to better recognize the needs of my loved ones. And there's a special kind of confidence in a relationship that comes from facing unbeatable odds together and emerging victorious, but support can't be a one way road. Sometimes the helper needs a little help helping. Mr. Frodo needed to tell me when the weight of the ring became too heavy. And when it felt like all hope was lost. I needed to know how much he valued my companionship. We needed to carry each other to the top of that mountain. And when we did, we were nothing but relieved to have each other. Hungrily yours, because I'm always hungry, Samwise Gamgee.

AMANDA: Moiya! Fuck yeah, dude. Yes.

DR. MOIYA: So, it's Advice from Folklore and anyone who says --

AMANDA: Yeah!

DR. MOIYA: -- Lord of the Rings isn't folklore at this point is just totally wrong.

AMANDA: It is!

DR. MOIYA: Yes. So, if you, I don't know, have not been a part of society for a while and you haven't heard of Lord of the Rings. Samwise Gamgee is the, I guess sidekick. He is Frodo's best friend who helps Frodo go on this quest to take the-- the One Ring to rule them all to the fires of Mount Doom to be destroyed. And along the way, when I was watching the movies, I will admit that I have not read the books. But along the way, I couldn't help but think that Sam was the real hero of the story. Without Sam, Frodo would not have gotten to that mountain. So I, Lena, have some-- some personal connections to this. I had a lot of very low points over the last couple of years. And my partner had to support me through that and learn how to support me through that. And there were definitely times when I felt guilty. I felt like I was taking too much from the relationship without giving enough back. And I was worried that there would be long term consequences that he would get tired of helping me or always seeing me sad, but we are not totally out of the woods now but we are closer to it. I can see the edge of the clearing and we are much stronger for going through this together. But I did ask him if he had any advice. He's not a god, but he said, "Similar to the boundary setting question, you have to help yourself first as the partner to someone with depression. You have to learn when to take a step back and when to prioritize your own needs. But it is also your responsibility, Lena, to try and come up with some ways that your partner can help you and tell them that. Just have faith that if you can get through this together and hopefully you do, especially if he's being the supportive now that you will come out of it stronger and that the long term consequences will be good ones.

JULIA: Absolutely.

AMANDA: So, so true. I also have such a personal connection to this. I've been in a very similar situation and it is my current self-improvement project to be a better recipient of care. Because I feel like I am a kicking and screaming hissing cat that is being, you know, like, adopted and dragged out of the comfy damp woods where I am miserable, but I know exactly where everything is and being cleaned and taken into a warm house and given food and water and the whole time I am screaming and yelling about how much I prefer my dank woods. And listen, I have to do my part. You know, like, I have to accept to say thank you to squash and figure out all my little systems and steps for dealing with the guilt and shame and not putting that back on the person who's trying really hard to help me. So, focusing on something that isn't just the shame, that I need support is really helping me. And so, trying to be a good foster cat, trying to be a good adoptee, trying to be a good patient has been a kind of mantra that I've been finding helpful over the last few weeks.

JULIA: Absolutely. I mean, for me, a lot of times, it's like, just being reminded that I need to do things in order to take care of my body when my brain is feeling bad. So like, a lot of times like, Jake will see me laying there. He's like, "When did you last eat?" And I'm just like, "I don't know." And he's just like, "Have this banana." I'm like, "I don't want it." He's like, "Have the banana. Come on, just do it." And I feel better after I eat the banana shockingly, even though I know from experience that I am gonna feel better. I'm like, this won't help at all. You know, I feel like a little Victorian spoiled child sometimes when he's trying to make me do the things that will make me feel better.

AMANDA: Papa, I don't want my oranges.

DR. MOIYA: It's so rude that things like getting out into the sun and eating food make you feel better. Like, how dare they?

AMANDA: How dare they, truly.

JULIA: Do you think just a little walk is gonna help me? No, sir-- Oh, I feel better already.

AMANDA: My stupid little walk, my stupid stretches in the morning, my stupid journal? I know. I hate them and yet they're so helpful.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah. Yeah.

AMANDA: We're in the woods with you, bro. We understand.

DR. MOIYA: Mhmm.

JULIA: And hopefully someone's pulling you out of the woods and putting you in a nice home with a fireplace and a little cat bed.

DR. MOIYA: Yes, and taking you out of your dank woods. I love that phrase. But I'm really glad you have support, Lena. And I hope that you can also learn how to accept that support and not feel guilty about it.

JULIA: Yeah.

AMANDA: Totally. Let's help Emma next. I wonder what figure from folklore can answer this question. What is the best way to rebuild an in-person relationship with my husband after two years of long distance? Nothing is bad. We just aren't used to being around each other all the time.

JULIA: I think I have something for this one.

AMANDA: You mean there are estranged lovers in folklore?

DR. MOIYA: What?

JULIA: Who can say?

AMANDA: Yes!

JULIA: Emma, my wife and I have a rather unconventional living arrangement. At times, it almost feels like I'm a bachelor again. Living on my own for six months out of the year before my wife returns to me. And the times that she spends with me is wonderful, of course. When she is gone, I miss her like the roots of plants miss the sun during winter, hidden in the cold ground until it is born again into the world. But whenever she returns, there's always a need for transition, getting used to one another again. The privacy of my inner chambers no longer feel private for there is another person there. Another person I love to be sure but another person nonetheless. I find in these times where the privacy I have grown accustomed to feel strained that I may separate myself from the situation. Perhaps that is the day that I wander the shores of the Styx or take Cerberus for a walk through the Asphodel meadows. And my wife understands. There are times where she too wants her peace and quiet in the infinite quiet of the underworld, I'm sure. And those moments of quiet contemplation on our own only strengthen our appreciation for each other's companionship when we come back together. May you and your spouse be only separated by choice for the years to come. Yours, Hades.

AMANDA: Well, that one was easy. That one I guessed, but my point stands.

JULIA: I think I gave--I think I gave quite a few hints.

DR. MOIYA: Yes, nice. Wow. Hades is a really good writer.

JULIA: Yeah, yeah.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: I feel like I might have spruced up his language a little. I feel like he's very clinical sometimes with his writing, but this time I– I think he-- he nailed it.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, absolutely.

AMANDA: I love it. Well, Julia, what about Hades inspired you?

JULIA: Sure. I'm just going to give a brief overview in case this is your first episode of Spirits and you don't know the story of Hades even though we've talked about it a million times.

AMANDA: Welcome.

JULIA: He is the Greek god of the underworld. We are constantly retelling the story of Hades and Persephone, but Hades stole the goddess Persephone away into the underworld to become his wife. Her mother Demeter was distraught when she found out that Hades had stolen her daughter, so she begged Zeus to intervene and have her daughter returned to her. The deal was that so long as Persephone did not eat anything in the underworld, she could return home. However, Persephone had eaten a number of pomegranate seeds and thus was bound to spend half of her time in the underworld and half of her time back on the surface, making her both the goddess of spring and the goddess of the underworld. As such, Persephone spends half of her time with her husband before leaving and then returning again six months later. Quick summary of the story. I mean, Hades and Persephone feels very obvious to me, but in the case of these two, it felt more like Hades would be able to give you advice than Persephone. Persephone when she leaves, you know, she's with her mother. She's with people and she is used to, like, having people around. I feel like Hades is very isolated in the underworld in those months where Persephone is gone. And so, he needs to have this kind of transition period of getting used to having someone around again. I think that this was very much the case for me at the beginning of the pandemic when my husband had to stay home from work and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I feel like you are right on top of me. I'm so used to staying home by myself during the day. And you're just here, and I don't know what to do with you. Like, if I need to pee, and you're in the bathroom, I have --

AMANDA: What do I do?

JULIA: -- to wait to pee, that's wild. I never have to do that when I'm home by myself, or it's like, I went to go into the kitchen, our very small apartment kitchen to get myself a drink of water but you're like, cooking, and I can't get to what I need to get so... And like, I think there is a little bit of guilt too, for some couples where it's like, you're home, we need to spend all of our time together while you're home. But sometimes you just need the alone time, and getting used to asking for alone time and being like, "Hey, I'm going to go into the other room and just read for a little bit. I don't want to watch TV right now. Or, hey, I'm going to go for a walk just to pick up something from the drugstore, you don't have to come with me if you don't want to." And I think that helps in the transition period of reminding yourself, "Hey, another person lives here too, but I can still have my privacy and my moments to myself."

AMANDA: Moiya, you're a scientist. If you had like, let's say a beaker of red liquid, and a beaker of blue liquid, and both of them are like, almost all the way full.

DR. MOIYA: Okay.

AMANDA: And what you were trying to do is make two beakers of purple liquid. What would you do? Would you like, pour one entire one into the other one and then have it all spill everywhere? Or would you do like, little bits back and forth until it's pretty much purple?

DR. MOIYA: I would get a third beaker.

JULIA: That was also what I'm gonna say!

AMANDA: Yeah! Okay, okay. Let's say you only have two beakers, then you might just like, slowly, slowly pour them back and forth until you get purple all the way.

DR. MOIYA: So, I think what I would probably actually do assuming that these are blue and red because of like, food coloring and not because they're different substances --

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: -- with different densities or whatever. I would just like, make the beakers kiss.

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: And then I would shake it so that they mix.

AMANDA: That's very good!

DR. MOIYA: Yeah.

AMANDA: I love that.

JULIA: That's smart.

AMANDA: That is way more detailed and has more knowledge than the thing that I was going for, which is like, you know, you can't just dump one into the other and assume that it'll be fine. There is a gentle intermingling of lifestyles and a getting used to each other that both of you have to go through. And I hope to Julia's point that you are not assigning yourself any guilt or feelings of selfishness in doing that. Like, take the time for yourself, be in separate rooms and text. When my partner and I before we lived and worked together, we texted all day long from our respective work computers. And during the pandemic in like month, I don't know, 9 or 10 when I was finally away from him for more than like, an hour at a time. I went to visit my grandma and texted him on the train ride back and was like, "Oh, I missed this feeling. Like, this was great." I– you know, I love that we live together but also this feeling was really nice. And it felt like, kind of reconnecting with something to text back and forth. And remember what each other is like in that way.

DR. MOIYA: I love that. Texting is fun.

AMANDA: Texting is fun.

DR. MOIYA: So, for a lot of long distance couples, when you do see each other, it's for such short amounts of time that you really do feel like you have to squish a lot of couple-ness into maybe a couple of days. But when you start living together, I think you might still be in that scarcity mindset of thinking, oh, I need to, like Julia said, just squish as much love and kindness into the time as possible. But you don't have to be in that scarcity mindset, your time with each other isn't scarce anymore. Even if you don't realize that yet. So, I think building in some scarcity, maybe? Leaving the room and texting might help you re-equilibrate. You asked me a science question, so now I'm feeling very sciency. Yeah.

AMANDA: I love that word. And it's a word I've only ever read before, so I'm very glad to know how it's pronounced. Yeah, sometimes, you know, little rules can be fun. Like, maybe you're, you know, not allowed to hug until after your work day. Maybe you-- no, everyone yelled at me. Maybe not. Okay. Maybe you take your-- your meetings in separate rooms, and you know, make it fun and exciting to come back together again. Maybe you take a break during your work day and you have, you know, a half-hour of lunch together and then go away separately. Maybe you ease into, you know, doing weekend plans together. Like, you assume and make it the default that, you know, every Wednesday night, you'll both kind of do your separate things, watch your separate TV shows, you know, hang out on the bed and on the couch or one of you goes and sees a friend when that's possible. Or every, you know, Sunday morning you call your respective parents and take separate walks. And then if you decide to do those things together, it'll be because you want to and not because you assume oh, we live together. And so, therefore the default is we have to spend all of our time doing the same thing.

JULIA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: Yes. No defaults in relationships. Just like, choose what you want to do. And don't do something just because you feel pressure from the outside to do it because you're in a couple.

JULIA: Right.

AMANDA: No.

JULIA: And like, don't feel obligated. Like, if you like, feel like you've created a sort of rhythm or routine and stuff like that. And you feel like you need to stay to that routine. You don't have to. You can decide, oh no, when you get home from work, we don't have to watch TV immediately when you get home. Maybe we'll like, put on a record and like, just chill or read a book or something like that. Like, you can break things up the way that you want to break it up. And if that makes things easier for you, hell yeah.

AMANDA: Sometimes I will kind of use the words of meetings. I'll be like, "Policy change. We're going to try something new," you know, or like, "Experiment. I'm trying to think of dinner and if we hate it, we will order pizza." You can be a little silly if it makes you feel less silly about talking about your relationship and discussing the things that otherwise are defaults, which can feel kind of awkward sometimes. Well, it's being a policy is my policy to refill our glasses after three questions. So folks, let's go on over to the refill.

JULIA: Let's go.

AMANDA: Julia, it's the refill where we take a break from feeling like we've been tagged in photos that we don't like and instead, say hello to each other and the people.

JULIA: Hey, hey, what's up? How are you doing? You good? Do you need a refill?

AMANDA: Oh, I do need a refill. Thank you. In the meantime, as you go and get our new drinks, I wanted to thank Sadie and Anna who joined the Patreon over the last week. Thank you both and thank you to our Supporting-producer level patrons: Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Little vomitspiders running around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi.

JULIA: Hey, there's a bowl of chips in here. Do you want some?

AMANDA: Oh, I have fresh guac. Amazing, that must have been from the Legend-level patrons. Audra, Bex, Clara, Drew, Lexus, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty.

JULIA: I am pretty sure that Bea Me Up Scotty made this guac by hand and it's delicious.

AMANDA: So good. If you would like to join us in the kitchen, join us in the refill, have a thank you by name, and access the six-ish years of bonus content we have for you, go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast.

JULIA: Get those drinks. There's so many recipes there. I've made so many recipes.

AMANDA: Alcoholic and not, whatever your pleasure.

JULIA: Yeah, exactly. Speaking of my pleasure, Amanda, I know that you and I probably have the same pick for this week, which is we have been totally loving a starstruck Odyssey on dimension 20.

AMANDA: Hell yes, we have. I get so amped watching this. I kind of have to save it for the weekends because if I watch it on Wednesday nights when it comes out I kind of get too excited to sleep. I just-- I get too amped. I get too into it.

JULIA: Sometimes I do Thursday mornings but then if I have work to do I'm like, "No no, no, it has to wait until after work otherwise this will be my whole day."

AMANDA: Yeah, they are wonderful whether or not you enjoy Dungeons and Dragons or you enjoy RPGs or games. It's a really really great way in. I– even though, you know, Julia and I are both on a Dungeon and Dragon show called Join the Party which is also great and you should enjoy, I love the visual aids that this show has. And it's so helpful. It's so funny, very gay. Life is great.

AMANDA: It truly is. Life is great watching that show. Well, Amanda you mentioned Join the Party, one of the podcasts on the Multitude Collective. Do you know what other podcast I've been really enjoying and also enjoying editing lately?

AMANDA: The one you edit? Queer Movie Podcast?

JULIA: That's true! So, Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. They're hilarious. I love them. You can join them as they research and rate their way through the Queer Film canon one genre at a time from RomComs to slashers, contemporary art house cinema to black and white classics. The Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gay on the silver screen.

AMANDA: I did end a business meeting with Jazza the other day with him saying I love you and then saying oops and then hanging up, so that gives you a sense of just how great these folks are and what our dynamic is like. So, promise, you are going to enjoy it. Julia edits the show and new episodes come out every other Thursday. So, look for Queer Movie Podcast in your podcast app or go to queermoviepodcast.co.uk. And finally, we have our brand new tee shirt, are the full Tarot tee shirt is up for pre order right now at spiritspodcast.com/merch and a bunch of stuff on sale. If you want to get some pins and posters for 30% off, now's the time to do so.

JULIA: Do it. Do it. The shirt is incredible. I know a lot of our merch is black and some people are like "Hey, what if you did other colors?" This one's like a light green and it's adorable. And I love it so, so much.

AMANDA: My dad requested a shirt so if you want to be like my dad, you should get one now.

JULIA: If Brian likes it, y'all will like it.

AMANDA: Agreed. If a six foot six Irish American man who both lays bricks and works at a bank can wear it, so can you.

JULIA: That's true.

AMANDA: And finally Julia, we have to thank our sponsors. First, I want to make sure that we thank Calm. It's a little break. Right? It's a little moment. Think about our thoughts. Think about what we're holding on to. Let's breathe in together. I felt like a yoga instructor just then. And that is the feeling that Calm gives us. See, my voice is calmer. The ups and downs of my volume are more regular because Calm is a mental wellness app that gives you and me the tools we need to improve how you feel. Over a hundred million people around the world already use Calm including me. They have, not just sleep stories which you've talked about at length such that the train to Snoozeville is sort of a vocabulary in my house because I like the Calm sleep stories so much. And the image of a train carrying me to sleep is one that I just adore. But there's also things like guided daily meditations, curated music tracks, and more. So, for listeners of the show, Calm is offering a special limited time promotion of 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/spirits. Go to c a l m.c o m/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com/spirits.

JULIA: Friday nights at my house, Amanda, are now D&D nights. We do an in-person D&D game on Fridays, which I absolutely love. And we kind of start a little early, like we're not hungry for dinner yet. And sometimes you're just like, really into the session that you're doing. You're like, "Oh, man, we're about to fight the dragon, but no one wants to leave to go get the pizza. No one wants to leave to go get the Indian food that we ordered."

AMANDA: Yeah, a dragon, you're gonna need all your party members. You can't spare somebody to go out and get the food.

JULIA: Exactly. You don't want to take a break because it's all very exciting. That's when we open up our phones and we open up our DoorDash app and we get our food through DoorDash. DoorDash connects you with the restaurants that you love right now and right to your door. And you can also get grocery essentials, like maybe you're sweating real hard, because that dragon is gonna mess you up, you can get deodorant delivered with your Indian food. That sounds great. And ordering is super easy. You just open up the DoorDash app, you choose what you want from where you want it and your items are left safely outside your door with a contactless delivery drop off setting. And they have over 300,000 partners in the US, Puerto Rico, Canada, and Australia. So, you can support your neighborhood go-to's or you can choose from your favorite national restaurants. And for a limited time, our listeners get 25% off and zero delivery fees on their first order of $15 or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter the code "spirits" that's 25% off up to a $10 value and zero delivery fees on your first order when you download the DoorDash app in the App Store and enter the code "spirits" don't forget that's code "spirits" for 25% off your first order with DoorDash. Subject to change, terms apply.

AMANDA: And finally, Julia, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. We talked about BetterHelp a lot on the show. And this month, we are discussing some of the stigmas around mental health. I don't know about you, but I sure grew up thinking that therapy was something unusual. Something that is not a normal part of life that sort of like, "regular people" don't utilize or ever go to. And hey, that's just wrong. I have been getting therapy through BetterHelp for almost two years now. And I really love how convenient it is. I can message with my therapist during the day, so I can confirm like, "Oh, hey, I'm running a little late. Can we start a little later?" Or hey, a slot opened up earlier in my day. Can we do something earlier? It's so easy and flexible to use. And I like my therapist. We can meet via video when I'm feeling it and via phone when I'm not. Or I can message and fill out a worksheet or a journal. There's lots of things in the app that can be really helpful as well. For somebody like me who loves homework, I can fill that out and I feel really productive. BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist, so you don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Give it a try and see why over 2 million people have used BetterHelp Online Therapy. Once more, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Spirits listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's b e t t e r h e l p.com/spirits. And now, let's get back to the show.

AMANDA: Moiya, this is the time in the podcast where we ask you what you've been drinking lately?

DR. MOIYA: Yes, so I am taking February as a substance free month.

JULIA: Cool.

DR. MOIYA: So, I am replacing my substances with root beer floats.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: Yeah! This is ingenious. I love this.

DR. MOIYA: Because it still is giving me that dopamine hit. It still makes me feel good. It still is --

AMANDA: Yeah!

DR. MOIYA: -- delicious. So yeah, I'm refilling my root beer float.

JULIA: I feel like people don't appreciate the at home. Like, not cocktail option but like, the at home like, fancy drink for lack of a better word.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah.

JULIA: Like, the idea of putting ice cream in root beer. Incredible. Why don't we do that at home more often?

DR. MOIYA: We really should.

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: I have a dedicated root beer float stein, actually. It's more than a mug.

JULIA: I love that.

AMANDA: Oh my god. That's so great. I really enjoy squeezing fresh citrus juice into my water and using like, little pebbly ice when I feel like a fancy bitch and like, using a straw. Like a metal straw at home, so I totally feel you. There's nothing like it.

JULIA: For Christmas this year, Jake's aunt who lives in California just sent us a box of lemons from her lemon tree.

AMANDA: The dream!

JULIA: So we just like, take half a lemon and squeeze that into our water every day. And it's like, I love it so much.

DR. MOIYA: Amazing.

AMANDA: Oh, incredible. Well, next we have an anonymous question. This one reads: How can I tell my significant other how much they mean to me without straight up proposing yet?

DR. MOIYA: We have something for you, Anonymous, whoever you are. Oh, I should say, imagine that. I am, like, an old black woman in a church hat when I say this, please. It's purple in case that matters.

AMANDA: Dig it.

JULIA: It does. Thank you.

AMANDA: I always pictured a purple garment for you. It checks out.

DR. MOIYA: Thank you. I am wearing purple.

JULIA: There you go.

DR. MOIYA: Dear, blessed child. There are 1001 paths you could walk with your beloved and not all of them pass through a wedding. My belly and I are sometimes tethered through marriage and sometimes we're not but we are always connected through our friendship, mutual respect, and his great skill at paying me compliments. That is the path we have chosen. In the future, we may turn onto another or we may reach a fork and choose to go our separate ways. If you are not ready to step down one of the paths to marriage now, find another path that speaks to your beloved's heart. Perhaps a path of service or art or physical pleasure. My supplicants leave me gifts of perfume and dresses to show how much I mean to them. And it is always appreciated, but that is because the gifts are what I've asked for. That is what makes me feel loved. What makes your beloved feel loved? What paths have made them feel most cherished? Let that knowledge guide your next step. In love and happiness, Anaisa Pye. PS, there's a PS. If all else fails, try giving your beloved a cigarette and some warm beer. Who can resist such a luxurious treatment?

JULIA: Hell yeah, dawg.

AMANDA: Oh, I want to hang out with her.

DR. MOIYA: I know right? So, I picture Anaisa Pye who is a LOA from the Dominican religion known as the 21 divisions as my great grandma who I never met, but she was just this, like, old southern black woman. So, that's-- that's the voice that I heard in my mind. The 21 division draws in elements of Christianity and Haitian Vudú, which is separate from Voodoo. That's practiced in Louisiana and some West African religions. LOA are Spirits who can act as intermediaries between humans and more divine deities, and they communicate with humans through dreams and other ritualistic divinations that humans would do to gain knowledge. And for this, they are served and given offerings. Anaisa Pye is one of the more often served LOA and has dominion over issues of love, money, and general happiness, which is great. Love that for her.

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: When believers have a wish or a question for Anaisa Pye, they will go through this kind of elaborate process. They leave out a yellow handkerchief, a new outfit, like a blouse and a skirt or a dress and perfume and jewelry. And then Anaisa Pye will come. She will put the handkerchief on her head, adorn this new outfit, put on the jewelry and the perfume from head to toe. And then again, reapplying it from toe to head because she's a thorough bitch and I love it.

JULIA: Wow.

DR. MOIYA: And only then after she is made up is she ready to be consulted. But you also have to give her a cigarette and a warm beer and a fancy glass, like a champagne flute.

AMANDA: Whoa!

DR. MOIYA: And then once she's sated, she will answer your question.

JULIA: I love the fanciness. Incredible.

DR. MOIYA: Right, right. I don't know why the beer has to be warm, but I am not going to yak Anaisa Pye's yum. Anaisa Pye is described as flirtatious and happy. She loves to dance and be the center of attention. And as Christianity grew more influential in the Caribbean, the LOA became syncretized with Catholic saints and Anaisa Pye is often associated with Saint Anne, who was the Virgin Mary's mother.

JULIA: Huh, look at that.

AMANDA: Wow.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, you know, so I am a mere mortal. I can't claim to know exactly what Anaisa Pye meant when I channeled this message. I am just a vessel, but my mortal interpretation of this is to ask for your significant other's love language. If you are not ready to propose, this is assuming that your significant other hasn't just straight up asked you to propose because that-- that's like a whole other issue, you know. If that's what they're asking for, and you're not ready, maybe do some self reflection on why that is. But if that's not what your significant other is asking for, what would they like? What ways have you shown love in the past? Maybe words of affirmation or planning a trip for your significant other or introducing your significant other to your extended family? If you haven't done that yet. There are so many ways to show love, and it doesn't have to involve a ring.

JULIA: Yeah, I think that one of the biggest problems with relationships is a lot of people feel pressured to kind of hit certain milestones by a certain point, especially like in a relationship. It's like, oh, well, you know, if you're however many years old, and you're still dating after two years, dump that person because they're not planning on being serious with you in the future, which is just not true, you know?

DR. MOIYA: People move on their own schedules.

JULIA: Exactly. We don't have to, like hit these milestones and stuff like that. And like, I understand that for some people, it's because they say that because they've been burned in the past. And like, you know, it's just a matter of like, you need to have these lines of communication open. Again, I feel like that is kind of the through line of our thing here where it's like, ask people what they want, and tell people what you want. It's okay.

AMANDA: Julia, it's so hard. I hate it. I love my dank woods where nobody communicates.

JULIA: I know, I know that quiet, dank woods where no one talks to you.

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: And you don't have to talk to anyone else.

AMANDA: But you're so right. And there are also so many reasons why a marriage might not be on the table or timeline or anything that you want. Like, you could be disabled and you can't get married here in the US because life is fucked up. There could be visa issues, caretaking responsibilities, you're queer, you're closeted. Like, there's– there's lots and lots of reasons but what you can do is say to your signature and other, "I'm so grateful you're in my life. I am thinking about the future and you are in it. I, you know, I love thinking about the plans that we're going to make and the things we're going to do. I can't imagine my life without you anymore. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but I want you to know that. I love thinking about the future and I love thinking about you in that future for me." And you may be able to tell that one of the ways I feel most loved is being told that explicitly. And so, saying back to my partner is not necessarily the way he receives love the most. And for that I try to, you know, buy him gifts for no reason. We call them prezzies with no reason, prezzie no reason in our household, which is very useful. Do things that he finds annoying to help him be acts of service, you know, et cetera. Lots of things. Just saying something as simple as I love thinking about a future with you in it could be really useful.

DR. MOIYA: When you said that. When you-- when-- Like, O-- We are not in a relationship, but when you said, I can't imagine my future without you. Like, I felt that in my heart.

AMANDA: Thank you.

DR. MOIYA: So, those are really powerful words.

AMANDA: Thank you. It's also really fun and flirty to talk about getting engaged one day or getting married one day before you do so. Like, that's a fun phase of the relationship before the engaged phase of the relationship, before the married phase of the relationship if that's the way that your marriage is gonna go and your relationship is gonna go.

JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. My favorite, just like, phrase that I tell Jake all the time is you're my favorite person, which is just like it's true. You are. He's great. Like, I just like reminding him like, I chose you out of all of the people in the world. And it's because you're the best in my mind.

AMANDA: I love that. Jake is the best.

DR. MOIYA: Love that.

AMANDA: Not my best person but like, the best person and certainly the best one for you.

JULIA: Aw, thank you.

AMANDA: Oh, I'm gonna learn a lot about Anaisa Pye after this-- after this recording. But let's next help Sophia who asks, "How do I deal with multiple grief inducing situations and stay sane in the process?"

JULIA: Dear Sophia, there is something to be said about the cyclical nature of grief. The circle does at one point begin and it doesn't ever stop. I am chained to a rock of my grief for I did lose many in the war between the Olympians and the Titans. I battled siblings and cousins and watched them fall into the depths of Tartarus. And the grief for me is as tangible as eagles' claws ripping into me. And every day it returns. You know that feeling. Some days it is easier for the blade of grief blunts in time and then something sharpens it against your skin and cuts in as sharply and painfully as the first time it happened. And yes, it will feel like there is no end in sight. I am sorry to say that this is because it is true. It will not end. It will just be easier to bear. Your skin will become thicker, it will become bronze to protect the pain beneath but it won't make the pain go away but time will make it more bearable. I know that isolation only makes grief fester like a wound. Surround yourself with people who care for you and they will be a bomb. They will never understand the uniqueness of your grief, but no one will. Do not push them away for they're like a cool rag against a fevered forehead. Not a cure, but treating some of the symptoms. And sometimes that's the best you can do. Yours in grief, Prometheus.

DR. MOIYA: Nice.

JULIA: Let me give a little background on Prometheus. So, Prometheus was the titan god of fire in Greek mythology and his story is told by Hesiod in the theogony. He plays an important role in Greek mythology because he is kind of situated in tales as the first challenger to Zeus after he takes the throne on Olympus after banishing the titans. So here's how it goes. Prometheus plays a trick on Zeus in favor of the mortals. So, Prometheus placed these two sacrificial offerings before Zeus. One was a selection of beef that was hidden inside an ox's stomach. Kind of representing nourishment hidden inside a displeasing exterior, and the other selection was bull's bones that were wrapped in "glistening fat," which represented something inedible hidden inside a pleasing exterior. So, Zeus ends up choosing the bull's bones.

AMANDA: Classic Zeus.

JULIA: Classic Zeus. And that kind of sets this precedent of future sacrifices where mortals will keep meat for themselves and sacrifice bones wrapped in fat for the gods. And this obviously pisses Zeus off, and as a result, he takes fire away from humans. And obviously, humans suffer without fire. They're not able to warm their houses, they can't cook their food. And so, Prometheus feels really guilty about his trick that basically ended up punishing the mortals. So, Prometheus sneaks up to Olympus. He hides fire within a fennel stock and then returns it back to humanity. And Zeus obviously is further enraged and decides to punish Prometheus. Binding him with change to a rock and sending an eagle to eat Prometheus' immortal liver every day, which then grows back every night. And eventually, Heracles would come across Prometheus and with Zeus' permission, kill the eagle and set Prometheus free.

AMANDA: Nothing pisses Zeus off like the consequences of his own actions, and that makes me so happy.

JULIA: He just wants everything to be straightforward so that --

AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.

JULIA: -- he knows what's going on at all times. And there's too many people tricking him in these stories.

AMANDA: So true.

DR. MOIYA: He tricks plenty of people. Coming down as a-- as a swan and impregnating someone or coming down as a golden rain.

JULIA: Yeah, he's a hypocrite.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah.

JULIA: He's a hypocrite. Damn Zeus. But anyway, back to Prometheus and his advice. I chose Prometheus because I have also lost two family members in pretty close proximity recently, which sucks. And I completely understand that kind of, like, cycle of grief where it doesn't feel any better. You know what I mean? It just continues to feel bad. And there's something to be said, like, where you are going about your day, and everything is fine. And then you remember, oh, shit, they're gone. And it just, like, slashes at you like eagle's claws. It fucking sucks. And it doesn't get easier. It's just sometimes time allows that pain to be slightly more blunted.

AMANDA: Yeah, so much of grief is, like, believing in your own ability to bear it in the future. And even though every part of your body and brain is telling you that this is impossible and stifling, and how does anybody go on, you know, with this weight, people do and you will, and there is no way to accelerate that. And that is so frustrating.

JULIA: And I mean, this applies not only to losing people, but like, you know, situations can cause you grief as well. I know that like, there's something scarring about saying, like, getting fired from a job or, you know, a breakup or something like that. It's not always just literal life and death situations, it can be that your grief is caused by the loss of a friendship or something like that, you know?

AMANDA: Yeah, or a future you-- you picture it for yourself, and for whatever reason isn't on the timeline anymore.

DR. MOIYA: I don't have too much to add. I haven't personally experienced this, I've been very lucky, but I have seen something on the internet that might help. A new framing of grief, instead of thinking of it like something that will get easier over time. I've seen people talk about a box with a ball in it and there's a grief button inside. And over time the ball gets smaller so that it hits the grief button less often but it's still there. It will come back. I think it's important to know that it will come back. Sometimes when you least expect it and to be prepared for that and not see it as a total backslide into square one where you were. Like, it will get better and then it'll get worse, but then will get better again.

JULIA: Absolutely.

AMANDA: Yeah.

JULIA: I mean, my husband lost his father very suddenly about like, eight years ago. And it's just sometimes you like, you hear a thing, a music, or you see a movie that you know, that he liked.

AMANDA: Or smell a smell.

JULIA: And the grief just comes back to you. Yeah, the smell as well because smell is such a powerful tie to memory and it doesn't get easier. It's just sometimes you think less about it, I guess? Like, there are more things happening in your life. And then sometimes that makes it worse to like, knowing like, oh, there's a big momentous occasion coming back in this person's not here. It sucks.

AMANDA: It does. I think the button is a very useful analogy because you know, you don't need to make this harder on yourself by judging your reactions, judging how your grief presents itself, how often it does, how acutely it does, when it comes. There is no wrong way to grieve, as long as it doesn't, you know, hurt the people around you more than-- more than is necessary. I hope you take it when it comes and treat it like cold where, you know, this is happening. And I'm going to deal with it. And I'm going to heal and then we get another cold. And I don't know when and I don't know why. But I am-- I know now what I have to do when I get one and know that we get and we love you.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, knowing what you have to do when you get one is nice. Like, if you-- if you can there's no silver bullet for grief, but if you can come up with a-- a process or almost like a ritual. Throughout history, people of different cultures have come up with ritual ways to deal with grief. Ways that you can be with community or processes and steps that you can actually go through. And that's really helpful to have almost, like, a list of steps that you can go through to make you feel like you are progressing, even if it still hurts.

AMANDA: Yeah. And you can have your grief buddies, I know I do. People I can text, you know, whether it's my siblings, all of us, you know, lost our grandfather at the same time about a year ago or people I know who have gone through something similar. And I can say, man, it is hitting me today, you know, or man, I am in the bog. I'm in the bog of grief. And I'm laying here. I know I think about woodland environments so much today and they're like, I get it too. I see you there. And you're right Moiya. Like, there are so many ways in which cultures and religions have dealt with this over time. In Judaism, for example, when you say a morning prayer, you have to have 10 other Jewish people there with you in order to, like, make it valid. And part of that is you, you know, you say that every day for a year. And so, every day you see the people who are there for you and they can be different but then when you get to the point where you do a special prayer every year after the person passed away, your grief buddies are there. The same people who have someone else to remember on that day are there with you. And it's something that is built into the ritual to give you community in that time and there are probably hundreds of examples that have similar functions. But the point is, it's so frustrating to try to do alone. And I hope that you let yourself say to somebody, even if it's texting them a certain emoji, that's something that I often do is I'm like, "Hey, this-- this emoji of a pine tree means I am feeling prickly and weird, and I'm sorry about it. And just dealing with that right now." Even if that's the extent of your signaling, give the signal, like show, show it. Let somebody else know. Well, let's close with a very-theater question which I always love. This is from another Julia, who says I had to take an action class next semester, and it's utterly terrifying. How do I cope with stage fright in the class that's required for my major?

DR. MOIYA: Yes, Julia, we have something for you. Dear Julia, we all contain within us a whole crowd of personalities clamoring to come to the surface. For a god like me, all it takes to become one of those other people or animals, as the case may be, is merely desiring to be it. For a mere human like you, it takes much more effort to shift your being and your shape will basically stay the same, but it is still within your reach to become someone else. If only for a short while. Are you afraid to stand on that stage as yourself? I certainly hope not because you don't have to act or pretend if you're being yourself, but if you can just convince yourself that you're someone else when you're on that stage, there's no need to fear. Hold your new name and quirks and motivations in your heart, the character you're playing doesn't get stage fright, because the character you're playing doesn't think they're on a stage. They are just living their life. If you get good at this mental persuasion, you'll find that it helps in other areas of your life as well. You'll never be able to turn into a horse to save your people by seducing a stallion in your new equine form, but you can act more confident or intimidating or even demure if you want to lull someone into a false sense of security. Since you can't truly change your shape, there's no perceivable difference between you acting and you being, you lucky human. Mischievously, Loki.

AMANDA: Loki! I do just kind of want to picture myself as a sexy horse. Maybe that'll give me the confidence I need. Normally I try to channel like, a waspy white dude named Zack with a K. Who like wears a lot of J.Crew in order to like, do interviews and stuff. But maybe a sexy horse is the sort of performer-sona I need.

DR. MOIYA: I love that. Yes. So, I'll give a little bit of background on Loki. Loki is the Norse trickster god of mischief. You can believe a lot of what you see in Marvel, but not everything. If you're trying to be true to the Eddas of Norse mythology. Loki's father was the giant Farbauti and his mother Nal was either a goddess or a giantess depending on the source. As a trickster, Loki changes his shape to help or hinder the other gods in equal measure. And one of my favorite things about trickster gods is that they often have this ability to change their shape. In one particular story, the Asgard and those are the one type of god in Norse mythology, they needed help building their city and they enlisted a giant to do the work for them. And he said that if he could finish the work in three seasons, that was the deadline he gave himself, that he wanted to be given the sun, the moon and the goddess Freya. Don't love that. You can't just give someone a person because they did a job but okay. So, Loki made sure that the giant missed his deadline by turning into a mare and seducing and distracting the giant's hardworking stallion. And in this form, Loki actually became pregnant with Sleipnir, the eight-legged horse that Odin rides as his steed and I love that so much.

JULIA: Oh, Loki.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, Loki is a mom. A horse mom.

AMANDA: What a chaotic bi. I love him.

DR. MOIYA: Right? I am not comfortable acting at all. I am very comfortable on a stage as myself, but as soon as I have to be another person, that's just the whole other level for me. But I think it's important if you are an actor to be able to kind of trick yourself, this is why a trickster god was useful, to trick yourself into thinking that you're actually this other character. I know that actors do a lot of-- or some actors do a lot to get into the headspace of the character they're playing and that is a necessary step. And if you continue acting, then it will get easier. But for speaking, maybe you're nervous because of lines, I will give some advice that helped me when I was getting comfortable just speaking in public. I remember in high school, I had to take a class where we gave speeches like, every week, and I hated speaking in public back then. So, what I would do is write my speech down, record myself reading it, and then I would listen to that recording all the time. I listened to it on the bus to school, I listened to it in the lunchroom, I listened to it as I was falling asleep, and then I memorized it with tones and inflections and everything. And then when I was standing in front of people, I didn't have to try and remember the speech or remember what I wanted to say. At that point, it was kind of rote and I, like, was a robot doing this performance. And over time, I just got more comfortable being in front of people and I didn't have to memorize it that way anymore. Yeah, figuring out what it is that is scary about getting on a stage for you and then finding how you can mitigate that.

JULIA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: Good luck.

JULIA: You know, before the pandemic, we did a lot of live shows and stuff like that. I get stage fright every time we do a bunch.

AMANDA: Oh me too.

JULIA: Every single time. And it's like, I've been doing stuff on stages since I was 14 or 15, and I still get stage fright. It's not like, it doesn't really go away for some people but much like what Loki suggested, what I do when we have live shows is I'm not Julia, I am playing podcaster Julia, who has to go out there and put on a performance and impress people with my knowledge and also that I'm funny, so it's just sometimes easier.

AMANDA: You wear sparkly crop tops, I wear new sneakers, we play a special song before we go out. This is the jewelry of a person who does live shows. And I can't square that with a person who woke up in bed that morning terrified, but it's the one who's doing it right now.

JULIA: Yeah, yeah.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, the power of a change of clothes. Something that makes you feel like a new person, that is really powerful. A power pose before you get out onto the stage. A little mantra, I know that some people pray before they go out on stage. There are a lot of ways to kind of center yourself and make yourself more comfortable before you stand in front of people and say some words because it's hard to do that.

AMANDA: It is so hard. And it's even harder to squash down the secret little squirrel acorn of shame inside yourself that you have stage fright. So, I would give mad respect to anybody in acting class who was like, "Hey, how do you deal with stage fright? That's the thing I'm going through." Or "Wow, this whole idea terrifies me. Where should I start?" Because you know, your classmates probably share that fear, some of them. Certainly, your teacher has dealt with that before. And I think it is really badass to hold up that little shame acorn and say, "Look at my acorn. Anybody want to help me eat it?" I'm just– I feel like I'm on a roll with the-- with the metaphors today but...

DR. MOIYA: Oh, yeah.

JULIA: Keep going.

AMANDA: Yeah, like, just name it, ask about it, eat it, and you'll be fine.

DR. MOIYA: And it's just a class. Remember Julia, that it's a class. The point of a class is to learn, to grow, and to improve in this one area. And so, it's totally cool if you are not the most natural or comfortable actor when you're taking this class, because that's the whole point of it.

JULIA: Yeah, I also don't think that any professor or teacher would probably be like, grading you based on whether or not you have stage fright.

AMANDA: Yeah, I totally agree. I think giving them a learning opportunity to teach everybody some strategies is a great thing. And I know you're going to kick ass. If nothing else, picture yourself as a sexy horse and report back to us.

JULIA: Yeah, I bet the sexy horse is really good at delivering the lines or performances that you have to do for that class.

DR. MOIYA: Oh, yeah. If you just like, need to stomp a little bit --

AMANDA: Oh, yeah.

DR. MOIYA: -- on the stage. Yeah.

AMANDA: Yeah.

DR. MOIYA: Don't picture everyone in their underwear. I have gotten that --

AMANDA: No.

DR. MOIYA: -- advice before and it has not --

AMANDA: That's distracting.

DR. MOIYA: -- worked for me.

AMANDA: That's distracting.

DR. MOIYA: Yeah, it's distracting. Yeah, there's someone really hot in the audience then I'm-- I won't be able to remember my lines.

AMANDA: And I'm like what kind of-- what style of underwear do I think you wear? Nope. Not gonna go there.

JULIA: Mhmm. Are you a tighty whities? Are you a boxers where there's a little red hearts on them? Who can say?

AMANDA: Yeah, a boy short? Yeah, just-- just pretend you're sexy horse. Toss your-- toss your hair a little bit. I bet I am Big Pentameter comes really naturally the sexy horses.

JULIA: Neigh. To be or not to be, that is the question.

AMANDA: Oh, guys, I could talk to you all day long. But I think that's the perfect note to end on. Thank you so much. And thank you to the gods and figures and quasi-deities and Samwise Gamgee for helping good conspirators out today.

DR. MOIYA: Thank you so much gods and thank you for your questions.

JULIA: Yeah. And thank you Moiya, once again, out here channeling for us. I-- we all appreciate it.

AMANDA: Always happy to do it.

JULIA: And remember listeners, thank you for staying creepy.

AMANDA: And staying cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.

JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.

AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.

JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.

AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.

JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.

AMANDA: Bye.

Transcribed by: John Matthew M. Sarong