Episode 271: Pop Culture, Video Games, and Cosplay as Mythology (with Dr. Vivian Asimos)
/We’re joined this week by Dr. Vivian Asimos, who explains that just about anything can be mythology. Yes, including Star Wars, The Legend of Zelda, and cosplay.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of drowning, child death, and sexual assault.
Guest
Vivian Asimos is a freelance academic specializing in all things popular culture and mythology. She has produced several publications including Digital Monsters, a book exploring online horror stories. She runs the blog Incidental Mythology, dedicated to the intersections of popular culture and mythology, and is currently undertaking a research project into cosplay. You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram @vivianasimos
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Transcript
Episode 271: Pop Culture, Video Games, and Cosplay as Mythology (with Dr. Vivian Asimos)
AMANDA:Welcome to Spirits Podcast a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this Episode 271, where we're joined by Dr. Vivian Asimos. Vivian, welcome to the show.
VIVIAN: Hello!
JULIA: Vivian, can you tell or I feel like I should be calling you doctor. I'm going to continue doctor and then halfway through when we know each other better, we can switch over to Vivian, but Dr. Asimos, can you tell us a little bit about what you study and what your area of expertise is?
VIVIAN: Yeah, so I'm an anthropologist specializing in mythology, and particularly contemporary mythology. I spent a lot of time studying online horror stories as mythology, analyzing them using very typical anthropological analyses for myths to learn a lot more about our contemporary society. So yeah, I spend a lot of time talking about popular culture and contemporary stories as our mythology.
JULIA: Excellent. I feel like that's a great place to start, because I know that you currently teach an online course called Digital Monsters, which is the study of online monstrosity.
VIVIAN: I do.
JULIA: Can you tell us a little bit about that? I don't want-- I want people to go and take the course, obviously, but I would love to hear a little bit of, like, teasers about it.
VIVIAN: Well, so digital monsters are-- it's obviously my favorite. It's what I specialized in and I spent a lot of time digging into it. I wrote a book on it, I love them. But basically, the course as well as my book kind of talks a lot about what monsters mean. So, all of these different monsters that we have in contemporary society on mean something and the way that our myths used to mean things, and our myths still mean things. And so basically, it's starting to do a little bit of an analysis of them, kind of digging into them and explaining a little bit about what some of them are actually saying. So I do spend time on the Slender Man because he's my boy. But I also talk about Ben Drowned, and I talk about the MOMO challenge. And Lavender Town syndrome is in the book, but not the course, so I've got-- I tried to delve into all sorts of different ones. And I'm always looking at new ones as well.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: I actually-- I don't think I know Ben Drowned. Can you tell me a little bit about that one?
VIVIAN: Oh, that one was from, like, 2008, 2010. Somewhere in that little thing. But the idea is that it's a cartridge of The Legend of Zelda Majora's mask.
JULIA: Oh.
VIVIAN: And it's haunted by the spirit of a dead kid that drowned.
AMANDA: Whoa.
JULIA: Interesting.
VIVIAN: The story itself is a bit, like, when you read it, it's a bit, like all the creepypastas where the storytelling is not, like the best in the world. But the-- they posted up, like, edited versions of the game that they purposely made to look really glitchy.
JULIA: Ooh.
VIVIAN: And so when I was, like, at university, that was like, one of the first ones I discovered and was looking online, and I had that temporary moment of like, oh, this is a weird version of the game before realizing it was all messed up. But um, yeah, I mean, it's a creepy game to start out with Majora's Mask, but then adding glitches and creepy sounds and stuff to it, it's just, it's beautiful.
JULIA: I want to come back to Slender Man and online mythology and stuff, but you've transitioned us so nicely into your course of study where you talk about the potentiality of video games to be contemporary mythology in pop culture.
VIVIAN: Yeah.
JULIA: And I feel like we got to talk about that, because you talked about Lavender Town Syndrome and now, I know about Ben Drowned, so let's-- let's talk about that a little, because I think it's such an interesting concept. And it's something that I feel like I have vaguely heard, but never had anyone either explained it to me or dive deep into it, so hit me with it. I want to hear all about it.
VIVIAN: Yeah, I mean-- I mean, it comes down to the idea of stories. And I mean to, like, really take it back. I've always really loved myths. I'm preaching to the choir, I know, but I always really liked reading them. And when I was a lot younger, I used to think, "Oh, why don't we tell stories that, like, mean stuff like this anymore."
AMANDA: Right.
VIVIAN: And then when I got older, I was like, of course we still are, but it's just the way that it's presented to us is really different. It's not presented in these old tones. It's presented to you in a movie, or in a book, or in a TV show, or in a video game. And video games in particular are a really fascinating version of it because myths and the old myths as well were never just read or even just spoken. There was a performance to it.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: There was always a ritual. There was always-- And even if they were just telling the story, the process of storytelling is this performance in and of itself that's part of the story as much as the words were a part of the story. And so, video games are this perfect embodiment of how that happens with contemporary storytelling where you-- you're, like, in it and you're performing it and you’re a part of it while you're still engaging with the story and telling it. So, I do a really boring fourth version of myth analysis, that's a type of structuralism. But to kind of distill the boring stuff out of it, one of the things that's part of it is this idea of implicit mythology. So, explicit mythology are, like, the words that you're reading. Or if you got, I don't know, the script of the game, that would be the explicit, but the implicit is all of that other stuff. It's the connection to the place. It's the connection to the stories, it's the way people feel. It's the performance of it. It's the ritual connected to it.
AMANDA: It's world building, isn't it?
VIVIAN: Yeah. So for me, the-- the mythology of video games isn't just the story. It's also this implicit myth part of it, and you kind of have to look at both at the same time in order to get the full picture of– of the myth.
JULIA: Yeah, that's fascinating. I love that so so much. And the idea that mythology in the past has always been told as a story as, like, a storyteller, and then giving that performance to an audience. Video games even take that the step further, because you are embodying the hero of the story in that sense, which is fascinating. And not something that, like, the average. Like, if you went to go see, I guess, a play in ancient Greece as an audience member, you weren't acting out the part of Dionysus or the chorus or anything like that. You were in video games. Now you are a part of the story, which is so interesting.
VIVIAN: Yeah, the video game is that you're the actor on the stage, rather than the person sitting in the audience. Yeah.
JULIA: And that opens up an opportunity that a lot of people didn't have in the oral tradition and mythology before that, which is --
VIVIAN: Yeah.
JULIA: -- really cool. Oh, my God.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I'm just, like, thinking about it now. Like, oh.
AMANDA: I know. My brain is, like, free associating to, like, I did a literature degree and just thinking about like The Canterbury Tales, even as, like, a sort of, it's like a narrative RPG. Like, it is-- it is taking you through.
VIVIAN: Ooh, I love that.
AMANDA: And kind of, like, presenting you with sort of dilemmas. And I listen, I read it once for a class many years ago, but like th--, the text of it pays a lot of attention, kind of giving you details and bringing you on this journey with these characters. And I know there have been so many, you know, play versions. And you, you know, hear somebody's recitation of an oral tale, and it's their particular version in your particular place. And like, what are these video games, whether they are MMO, RPGs or not. They are spaces that we can all inhabit similar to the sort of, like, you know, constructed universes of the tales that we might think of as more classical mythology.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: Yeah. Well, and like, agency is really important in this. And it's something that even when you're talking about the kind of classic oral traditions of the stuff that I think is sometimes lost in the way that people talk about stuff is particularly when they talk about the changes in stories, they think about it as going, oh, you know, you kind of mess up because you have to memorize because it's not written down, but that's not really that accurate, so a lot of people would change the story because they wanted to.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: Because that's what they did as a storyteller, and things would change over time, so they would change the story to reflect the time that they were in or the place that they were in. And there's a lot of agency in the act of the storyteller. And that's something that is kind of carried forward to a lot of contemporary storytelling is it's not just video games, either, because obviously, there's that agency, but even, like, fanfiction.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
VIVIAN: Is essentially the audience having their own agency over the shift of canon, essentially.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: This reminds me of the fact that, for example, in the "Greek canon," a lot of the conquests of Zeus, whether it's like sexual conquests, or whatever, were typically the like, overarching Greek canon, was going into these cities, or these villages where they worshiped another deity that wasn't the main Olympians. And so, we call it "LOL, it's not pagan, it's fine" when it's Christianity. But for stuff like Greece, like, all of a sudden, this warrior goddess is now a conquest of Zeus in the canon, and that is, like, the Greek poets being like, "Oh, Zeus is better, therefore, we're changing the narrative of the story."
VIVIAN: Yeah.
JULIA: I love that. I mean, I don't love that they did that but I love that we can connect that to modern day storytelling.
VIVIAN: I mean, we need that like, that's-- Stories are always really important to humans, and societies and who we are as people. And so, when our times change around us, our stories kind of have to change. And I think we've seen that really radically within the last couple of years of how dramatic some of our stories have shifted, how dramatic some of the way we tell our stories has shifted. And that's just going to keep happening. We've just seen it in a much more radical position in the last couple of years, but that's just always been happening.
JULIA: Mhmm. Mhmm.
AMANDA: Yeah, again, as my brain just free associates some of the topics I most love to talk about, which are these topics I am thinking too about. Someone was telling me recently about their grandparents' love of, like, forwarding, email, memes. And like images. And like, you know, back in the early days of email forwarding, were like chain emails and kind of just like forwarding a meme basically to everyone in your address book for those of you who are too young to remember these was very popular. The best part to me was the kind of, like, textual degradation of the source material as it got forwarded and reprinted like in the idea of making of, you know, a copy of a copy of a copy of, like, the flier in your library where it's like, the text was black, but now it's, like, a light gray, because it's just been copied so many times.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: And you can see that happening in these chain emails where the images will get compressed by people's, like, email servers, or the email subject would be, like, forward, colon, forward, colon, forward, colon a million times. And that is something that I really love, kind of seeing the tendrils, and almost the citations, or like the decision trees, and everybody's comments and metadata on these stories. Is that something Dr. Asimos that you're interested in? Or that factors into your research at all the kind of, like, provenance of the stories?
VIVIAN: Yeah. I mean, I haven't done email chains in particular. But I mean, creepypasta has the similar idea of it being shared in the copy paste format, which is where the name --
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: -- comes from, before the share button existed, our younger listeners. There is a lot of-- of the process of storytelling, because again, it's the performance of it. It's not just the text of the Slender Man. And this is what the Slender Man does. Like, that's not really that interesting. I'll be honest. What's interesting is the way people talk about it, the way people craft it, the way that people interact with it. And there's a lot of what I-- it's in character storytelling.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: So the way that people kind of everyone knows it's a story. And everyone knows that it's this fake thing that we're all making up, but we're going to talk about it like it's this real urban legend, and we're going to talk about it like it's this real thing. And the process of doing that is essentially making it a form of real.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: And that's what's really fascinating to me. It's-- it's a lot of the way people tell the stories and crafted and create little communities around one story and it's almost, like, this microcosm of a community that'll pop up and then disappear, because sometimes the stories don't last, you know? They'll-- they'll be around for, like, a good, I mean, three months if you're lucky, and then it'll just disappear. And then another one will pop up. And-- and one of the things that I found really interesting about the Slender Man was just how because he's existed for so long, and he didn't have that disappearing moment. That one's been really fun to see how it's shifted over time. Though, he looked really different at the beginning than he does now and seeing how that's shifted, why that's shifted, and all of that it's, it's fun.
JULIA: I love that. I think there's something really interesting in kind of the idea of-- For example, in creepypastas but I'm also thinking of, like, fandom in general, how online communities latch on to little things about the original source and then that, like, expands into what the character fully is. Like, Amanda I'm sure you can come up with, like, a fandom example where it's, like, this character mentioned liking bagels one time and so in all fanfiction that character always is eating bagels. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Exactly. Yeah.
JULIA: I just really like the idea that online communities kind of, like, in the original Slender Man text, you know, like, they decided like, oh, okay, we're gonna, like, cherry pick this, this, this, and this and this is going to be what we expand upon about this character or about this text.
AMANDA: I mean, those are just, like, the, you know, the like violet eyes of, you know, whatever character that was mentioned once or, like their, you know, penchant for, like black combat boots. I feel like the like MCU, like, the sort of Avengers this is particularly common in but I mean, that's just, like, a [13:39] epithet right? Like, it's just Rosie finger Dawn, you know, it's just swift footed Achilles. Like, it's the-- it's the little tag by which we come to understand that person or that character in the fandom imagination. Doesn't make it not real to me. Like, this is not so different from, you know, your friends at a sleepover telling you about the Bloody Mary in the mirror. And, you know, it doesn't matter if it's actually supposed to have, you know, three repetitions or four repetitions. It's whatever you're told is real and then that-- that's what you reproduce and you tell to the people at the next sleepover
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: Yeah, I don't know if um, how familiar you guys are with the subreddit no sleep.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Quite. Yeah.
VIVIAN: The main rule on no sleep, everything is true here even if it isn't, has, like --
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: -- become my mantra in everything that I do and I study because it just so perfectly encapsulates everything of everything is true even though it's not but it-- but it is, but it's not.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Yeah. And so, we-- we talk very often about the stuff that we find to be in this podcast purview is, like, mythology, folklore, storytelling of all kinds, not just the stuff that, you know, academic textbooks would tell you is important for lots of messed up reasons. But also because the stories that live on are important because they live on. Like, they're important because someone told them, they're important because someone who heard them felt them important enough to reshare and to retell it and, like, give it more life. So, what is your kind of big brain theory? Like, why is this stuff so true? Why is it so important to us? What really snagged you about it in the first place and kind of keeps you coming back?
VIVIAN: Well, so I have my own definition of mythology, which actually kind of combines myth, legends, and folklore all at once, which kind of gets me into trouble a lot in academia, but I don't care.
JULIA: Hey, on this show, it's fine.
VIVIAN: But anyway, yeah, so I define it by essentially, its function, what it's doing for the people who are telling the story. And so, for me, a myth is a narrative or something akin to a narrative, I leave it open, that an individual or a community uses to understand themselves and the world around them.
AMANDA: Totally.
VIVIAN: So, if you are using a story to better understand yourself as a person, to better understand the community you find yourself in or the world that you find yourself in, then that story is a myth. And it doesn't matter whether it's Star Wars, or whether it's Ganesha, it is a myth. So, that's where I always start from. And I got into this because I started with The Legend of Zelda series, because as you can tell, I like it. And I met someone during some fieldwork, where they had a tattoo of the Triforce, like, on their upper arm. And for people who don't know the Legend Zelda series, because I'm not going to pretend that everyone is as nerdy as me, the Triforce is, like, three triangles. And the idea is that each one represents a type of emotion, character trait. Its power, wisdom, and courage. And the story is that if someone touches the Sacred Triforce, that has an equal balance of wisdom, power, and courage in them, then they will get any wish granted to them. But if they don't, then the Triforce breaks, and then you have to kind of reassemble it in a crazy way. You know, through the video game, this person I was talking to said that they always liked to look at the tattoo, whenever there was a moment in their life that they had to make a big decision, or if they were really struggling with something in order to remind themselves that the best way of doing things is to always approach stuff with an equal balance of wisdom, power, and courage.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And of course, this person would not put on, like, a census sheet that they were Hylian, you know, but it's still something that they used to navigate themselves in the world. It was something that they used in order to understand their best version of themselves. And so, for me, that was a myth. And being in, I kind of did a lot of my studies in religious studies departments, where it was always very firmly, what-- but what do they really believe? What do they put on a census record? Do they go to a church? And of course, I was like, Well, no but...
JULIA: It doesn't mean it's less real, you know? To them, it still gives them insight into who they are as a person and what their role is in the universe, right?
VIVIAN: Yeah. And so for me, that's-- that's where it comes into. And it's always therefore based on who I'm talking to that is determining what a myth is for them.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: So, what a myth is for you might be different than what my myths are, but what's important is– is how we're using the story and how we're feeling about the story and how we're interacting with the story. And that's always the same.
JULIA: I love that.
VIVIAN: I don't know if that answered the question.
JULIA: No, that did. 100%.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. I want to just do little cul-de-sacs of conversational tangent.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: A bit of what you're saying.
VIVIAN: Well, so yeah, because I'm-- I've kind of been getting into this rabbit hole of I've been listening to this real play podcast.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: That is based in the Star Wars universe.
JULIA: Oh, okay.
AMANDA: Nice.
VIVIAN: And I'm not a big Star Wars person. I mean, I like it. I've seen the movies and stuff, but I'm not like, Oh, I know all the little bits of information. I'm just not that kind of person.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: But I've been really enjoying listening to it. And I've just been binging this podcast for ages. But there was a point in it, where the kind of main host started to talk about the Star Wars community, and ,like, thanking the Star Wars community, and she was crying. There was a certain point listening to her, I was like, Oh, my God, she's crying, talking about how she, you know, it started where she would use it as a way to connect to her dad as a way and then it became this place where all of her friends were. And then it became, you know, the way that she's now connecting to the community of her podcast audience. And then it became the way she understood herself. And she talks a lot about the Sith, and the way, you know, what their Sith code is, and how that helps to establish, like, understandings of the world versus all this other stuff. And it was just, like, this huge, crazy monolog where I was like, I could have used you, like, five years ago when I was a writing major. But that's exactly what I'm talking about is that level of-- of emotion and connection to its popular culture, but that doesn't matter. It's-- it's meaningful, and it's important and it's something that you understand yourself through.
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, I've absolutely in, like the philosophy and religious art sections of bookstores seen, like, the zen of the forest and like, the Sith code books. Like, that's 100% of thing and, like, I'm pretty sure, like, the like path of the Jedi or something to that effect is like a established religion that you can can write down --
VIVIAN: It is.
JULIA: -- on your Census. Yes. Excellent. I love that.
VIVIAN: So yeah, there are things called uh, at least in the academic world, we call them hyper real religions or invented religions which are based on pop culture stuff.
JULIA: Mhmm. Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And Jediism is the big name one that everyone always drops. I tend to kind of see things a little bit more gray than that but-- but yes Jediism is definitely a thing.
JULIA: 100%. Yes. Only because I know that I bought one of those books for my husband in the past, so I'm aware. But I, yeah, I really do love this idea that stories, you know, we're talking about something as grand scale as Star Wars which is a huge franchise and, like, you know, conventions just based on Star Wars that kind of thing. But the fact that you can see something as just, like, an independently published book or something like that can become a religious text to someone or at least a mythological text to someone if they relate. I absolutely love that concept and it's not something that I ever considered before.
VIVIAN: Yeah.
JULIA: That's awesome. No, I just-- I-- I love where your brain is at and it makes me very very happy to be having these discussions. That's awesome. We're going to be right back to ask you a couple more questions but first, we're gonna go grab a refill.
AMANDA: Julia, I'm having so much fun talking to Dr. Asimos, but first we have some new guests here. We have a new patron. Stellar Cee, thank you for joining.
JULIA: Hey, you came to the party. Hang up your coat, grab a snack, there's drinks in the corner and enjoy.
AMANDA: Amazing. You can also always find some great conversation with our Supporting-producer level patrons who are hanging out by the-- by the ice and the drinks over there. Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Little vomitspiders running around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course those Legend-level patrons. Audra, Bex, Clara, Drew, Lexus, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty. I trust them, Julia, to, like, self serve their own coffee and drinks. I'm like, you know where the stuff is. Like, go get yourself some water. I trust you.
JULIA: Of course. They've been here before. They know what's up.
AMANDA: Yeah, they do. And if you want to get your name read. If you want to enjoy the many, many years of bonus content that we have put out there. If you want to get customized alcoholic and non alcoholic drink recommendations for every dang episode we put out so far, go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast.
JULIA: Do it. It's so great. And it helps us make this show a reality and be able to do this as our full time jobs and it's incredible.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Amanda, what have you been watching, listening to, reading lately? What's up? How you doin'?
AMANDA: I'm doing great. My grandma and I have a two-person book club where we read detective fiction and mysteries and romance. And we have really been enjoying the Lady Emily series. The first one is called And Only to Deceive and it is about a regency era young woman whose husband who she, like, feels okay about dies suddenly.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: And she kind of unravels the mystery of his death and gets very into classical Greek mythology as she does so.
JULIA: Yeah!
AMANDA: So she is like a lady of means who gets the chance to, like, learn ancient Greek and, like, go find sculptures and she has a bunch of lake friends and her story intersects with, like, real life painters and composers from that era in Europe. And it's very fun. There's, like, 15 of the books, so my grandma and I always get so excited when there are enough books that it's like, okay, this will last me for a few weeks at least.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: So, that's been our latest pick that I have really been enjoying.
JULIA: I love that. Tell your grandma I say hey.
AMANDA: I will.
JULIA: And if you have been listening to all of the Multitude shows lately, and you have run out of episodes on your favorites, good news, we actually make a weekly friendly debate show featuring all of the hosts of Multitude called Head Heart Gut. So, every month, we take an iconic set of three items from pop culture or the world we live in and we pit them against each other. And the first three weeks it's, like, each of the contestants presents their choice. They answer questions in the definitive survey of greatness, which is excellent. And then in week four, each contestant participates in, like, basically a formal debate with a special guest judge. We've decided stuff like best fruit, best movie sequel, best thing to do at a theme park. It's Spiel Rides, according to me, trust me.
AMANDA: And this month it's best comic book villain where you can hear Julia throw down with Eric Silver and Sally Tomarkan and guest judged by our new community manager Rou.
JULIA: Magneto should win BT dubs just-- just letting you know ahead of time.
AMANDA: We'll see. And there's only one way you can find out who wins which is to join the Multicrew. Go to multicrew.club and for as little as five bucks get access to Head Heart Gut, our high intensity low stakes debate show.
JULIA: It's great. I love it so much.
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JULIA: Mhmm.
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JULIA: That's b r o o k l i n e n.com/spirits. Thanks, Brooklinen.
AMANDA: Thanks. And finally, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. We talked about BetterHelp a lot on the show. And this month, we're discussing some of the stigmas around mental health. Julia, what were some of the stigmas that you grew up hearing or not having challenged around mental health?
JULIA: Mostly, like, "Oh, you have to go to a therapist? What's wrong with you?" Nothing's wrong with me. I just like to have someone to talk to.
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JULIA: No, thank you.
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JULIA: This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Spirits listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's b e t t e r h e l p.com/spirits.
AMANDA: And now, let's get back to the show.
JULIA: So, I did have another question because we left off kind of speaking about fandom and stuff like that. I know that you have another area of study, courses study, which involves cosplay.
VIVIAN: Yes. Well, it is still somewhat connected.
JULIA: Okay. Yes, of course.
VIVIAN: But it's a-- it's a new research project that I have been going through. I actually have crowdfunded for it.
JULIA: Awesome.
VIVIAN: Which was a new experience as well. I'm trying to document the research experience, but it's very boring. So it's probably not very interesting.
JULIA: We have a lot of scholars in our audience. I'm sure they would find it interesting.
VIVIAN: Then they'll find it even more boring, but anyway. But yeah, so I-- I'm researching cosplay from an anthropological angle and always with that myth thing in my head.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And for me, what makes cosplay interesting is that it's-- it's a lot of what we're talking about, right?
JULIA: Right.
VIVIAN: Is for you to cosplay as this character, you have to really like them. You have to really like the story it's coming from, you have to really connect to that story. And then you're dressing as the character, and you're performing as the character, you're acting as them and you're kind of temporarily living in the myth.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: So, it's this huge idea of mythic performance. And performance is a really important part of cosplay. What I have always been interested in is how people pick their cosplays.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: Part of anthropology is doing participant observation, which means I don't only observe but I have to participate.
JULIA: Ooh!
VIVIAN: So, I have been trying to put together my own cosplay and having to pick who I was going to do is really hard.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: I like a lot of things.
JULIA: What a big mood. Yes. 100%.
VIVIAN: Yeah. It was-- it was so hard. And there was a documentary that I watched where there was a cosplayer, a professional cosplayer who was saying that the way she chose who to cosplay when she picked people who had personality traits that she wanted to embody, that she didn't have, but kind of wished she had. And that to me is, like, I mean, I could write 800 chapters on just that, it's such a fascinating little-- little world that is taken as very banal from the surface level. It's like, "oh, those weirdos dressing up," it is so fascinating and intricate, and there's so many different little facets to it of, again, agency of transforming characters. It's not just perfect replication as you have gender bending, and people who have, like, changed it in and sexy cosplayers as well, people who change the characters to kind of fit either the gender they want, or the appeal that they want depending on the type.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And they are essentially changing the character to fit their own version of the story. So, it's, like a little embodied fanfiction, a mythic performance.
AMANDA: It's amazing.
JULIA: Oh, God. I have two, like, crossroads that I want to go through here. I really liked what you mentioned about the professional cosplayer choosing characters that kind of embody ideas that or personality that she would like to embody. And it reminds me, friend of the show, Eric Silver. Amanda's fiance is a dungeon master by trade and has talked about how a lot of times when you're creating a Dungeons and Dragons character, you're often reaching for a characteristic or personality that you wish that you could inhabit as well, so I love this idea that yeah, I chose, I'm trying to think of a good character to, I don't know, like, I chose this character because they're really confident and I'm shy in real life is a great example. And I just love that. I love these people who feel that they, you know, you put on a costume and you can be the person that you wanted to be. Like, that's incredible.
AMANDA: Yeah. And seeing, like, black cosplayers reclaim space for themselves in pop culture that is inundated with white characters seeing plus size cosplayers do, you know, use their bodies as beautiful canvases and not kind of modify or shy away from straight size characters, because there just aren't a lot of characters for us plus size people to choose from. Particularly not kind of heroic or leading characters, so it's a very exciting way to carve out space for yourself, like you're saying. But also, like, again, my free association goes to, like, isn't that why we pray? Like, isn't that why we venerate saints? Isn't that why we repeat proverbs and stories in religion that are not just about relatable kind of human failings, but about people, you know, making impossible choices or persevering or demonstrating qualities that we wish we could channel? Like, that's why I get tattoos. That's why I resonate with characters, that's why I read fanfic, because I want to kind of immerse myself in a aspirational quality of a character in a story that I care about.
VIVIAN: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, there's, ugh. I've been really getting into this whole cos-- I thought it would be kind of a fun side thing that I would write, like, one article on, and then I started getting into it. And I was like, I can't, I can't, I gotta keep going. One of the people that I talked to, we were talking about the replication aspect of it, and I was asking about things like, particularly body size, and the art of replication and how she felt about it and stuff like that. She said that it doesn't matter about any of it. It doesn't matter how good your costume is, it doesn't matter what the shape of your body is, it doesn't matter any of that, what matters is whether or not you are embodying the character right.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Mmmh.
VIVIAN: Which I mean, obviously, there's questions of what's the right way --
JULIA: Sure.
VIVIAN: -- of doing that, and all of that kind of stuff, but it's-- it's all about this need to be the character but then that can also open up a huge amount of cans of worms because then you have the people who I know that um, there are certain characters that are really annoying, like, within their nature and people hate when other people cosplay as them because it's, like, then there's just so many annoying guys running around the con instead of, like, being just-- just normal because they're too much.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: It's too much embodiment.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: But yeah, so there's, there's the performance aspect and the embodying of the myth is just, it's, that is above all else, for most of them.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: That's why I love seeing cosplayer photoshoots. A; because I don't go to in-person cons. Certainly not in the last couple years, but I also didn't before that, but also because the world building of those photoshoots is, like, beyond interesting to me. Like, where they choose to do it, the props, the lighting, the ways that they really use the full canvas and not just their body in costume. Like, they are really giving me a window into a world like they're making themselves a painting. And I'm sure that there's a world of kind of distinction difference, you know, what people focus on in-person cosplay versus represented cosplay online. But that's something that I always so appreciate this kind of art direction of just the entire scene.
JULIA: Yeah. And I have the opposite experience where I've been to New York Comic Con every year since I graduated college except for obviously pandemic years. I love that you talked about the performance aspects because one of my favorite comic con memories was there was a man who was dressed up as Obi Wan Kenobi, and like, went out of his way to interact with every Star Wars cosplayer there, right? And he also, like, had a sign where it's every time he came across an Anakin or a Darth Vader he's like, "I have the high ground!" And we're like, "You're doing great, sweetie. Thank you for-- for this gift that you've given us here." God, what a-- what a delight these people are. I have not had the personal experience of cosplaying mostly because I have no costuming skills whatsoever. And also, it costs a lot of money, usually to cosplay.
VIVIAN: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. But I-- I'm very curious as to what characters you're personally drawn to, since you are going to be participating in the future. I know it's a hard question to ask.
VIVIAN: So, I had a lot of trouble picking.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And you can't really tell too well in the terrible five o'clock at night lighting of the UK, but I have red hair.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And so, I wanted to embody a character that had red hair. A, because my hair is way too thick to try to put a wig on.
JULIA: Oof.
VIVIAN: But also just because I like my red hair and it took me a very long time in my life to grow to appreciate it, so I kind of wanted to appreciate it. There's surprisingly a lot and not very many.
JULIA: Yes. Yeah.
VIVIAN: So, I had a really hard time and I ended up deciding to do, it's from an anime, The Ancient Magus' Bride, the character Chise who has very short and very bright red hair, but I was like, eh, it's probably just, like, a Japanese thing of making red hair very, like, in your face red. But then according to the books, it actually is in your face red, so it might have been a little bit too presumptuous of me. But I also picked it because the story of The Ancient Magus' Bride really appeals to me because it's so full of myth.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: I don't know how into anime you guys are.
JULIA: Fairly well but not familiar with that one in particular, so hit me with that.
VIVIAN: You should watch it, you need to watch it. You will love it.
JULIA: I am writing it down right now.
VIVIAN: It's like there's-- there's characters and creatures and stuff from all sorts of different myths and folklore. It's supposed to be based in the UK, but they have, like, Irish gods and they have fairies from different areas. And the Wandering Jew is one of the characters who kind of comes up, so there's all sorts of different drawings and people are kind of constantly trying to figure out what creature one of the characters is. And there's discussions online of who is it and all this kind of stuff. It's amazing. So it's, like, that world is one that I just really appeal to. I would love to be able to, like, hang out with fairies and talk to gods and stuff like that. That would be so cool.
AMANDA: Oh yeah.
VIVIAN: That's why I picked her. But I was debating on doing a couple of video game characters because I, you know, obviously I love me some video games.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: I was thinking about Aloy from Horizon Zero Dawn, because that's another redheaded badass bitch. Sorry, am I allowed to say that?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Of course you are.
VIVIAN: I was debating on her. I was debating on H'aanit who's from Octopath Traveler, which just looks like a low rent Aloy, but you know.
AMANDA: Well, it sounds like you're picking a quality that you feel that you can kind of use to connect with a character and something that maybe, you know, was a mixed blessing for you in your life that you've come to really appreciate, which I think is a great place to start kind of finding your cosplay zone.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: Yeah.
JULIA: That's awesome. Oh my gosh, that-- I love that you're doing this project. It's so cool. I love the ties to mythology and stuff like that. That's-- it's gonna be incredible. And I can't wait to check it out when you are all done with your research and stuff. It's gonna be so cool. I did want to talk about this just because I came across a podcast episode that you did about AI and Religion. And I think that's a really interesting cross that people don't talk about. I feel like it's something that has been explored a lot in science fiction and stuff, but I don't think it's something that we talk a lot about in terms of, like, actual religious and I'm talking about, like, capital B capital R big religion, but it's not something that we have a lot of, like, frank conversations about what this technology is going to mean for organized religion.
VIVIAN: Yeah. So, for anyone who's interested in this, I would suggest going and looking up any of the research done by a very dear friend of mine, Beth Singler. She specializes in it much more than I do, and can probably speak to it much more eloquently than me as well, because she's amazing. But I'm trying to figure out where to start with this. Because there's, I mean, there's a lot to get into, because we can also talk about, you know, that the big question of what is religion. It's definitely a question that people should be holding because when you say the word religion, particularly in the UK, in the US, the first thing is Christianity and nothing else.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: And then maybe you might think of Judaism and Islam after that. They have what's called the Big Five, which is, you know, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: There's a lot more religions in the world.
JULIA: Oh, it sure is.
VIVIAN: Including Jediism.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: But there's-- there's a lot of different religions in the world and, and there to incorporate all of them under one roof of a definition is literally impossible. If anyone tells you they know exactly what religion is, they're lying to you, or they are wrong. So, which to me is what makes it amazing and fun and interesting to delve into, because I like to take things, like say video games and say, well, let's make it religion and see what happens. So, I enjoy to play with the grayness, some other people don't enjoy it as much. But AI kind of coming into the equation, I think, is almost complicating it a bit more. So you have conversations about, you know, if god to you is something that is essentially all knowing, and can kind of watch you and all this kind of stuff, then is, you know, your Alexa a form of god?
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: So, you know.
JULIA: No, that's a valid question. I love those kind of like, thought experiments being, like, well, if you define it that way, doesn't this, this, this and this also fall under that category? And they're like no.
VIVIAN: Yeah. And there's a lot of really interesting things that, you know, that the conversation comes up with, and there's a lot in regards to questions of morality.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: Which again, for-- for many people is tied to religion, not for everyone is tied to religion, I should specify, but for a lot of people, particularly white people in the West, morality and religion are inherently tied together. And the introduction of AI and the question of morality connected to that is a really fascinating one. And there was, I think, at the time that we recorded that podcast, because this was a couple of years ago now. But I think at the time that we recorded that it was right when they were talking about having to program in morality into driving, like, self driving cars.
JULIA: Mhmm.
AMANDA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: So, like, if you're driving a car, and you have to swerve and it's, like, you're either hitting, you know, one, like an elderly person or a kid, and you have to, like, make that decision, you know, that's gonna factor into stuff. But they've got to program that decision into the car.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And like codify our collective societal morals, because the people that the car impacts
VIVIAN: Yeah! And so, now, now, you've suddenly got to go, okay, well, what-- what does everyone think is the right moral choice? And of course, there's not going to be a solid answer on that, because that's the point about all the religions in the world. So you have to really start making essentially religious decisions. Religious and moral decisions when you're just creating an AI driven thing.
JULIA: Yeah, you're asking scientists to solve the trolley problem.
VIVIAN: Yeah.
AMANDA: So maybe-- maybe rich, rich billionaires, maybe--
JULIA: Shouldn't be making moral decisions.
AMANDA: Shouldn't be making moral decisions that affect the whole country.
VIVIAN: And this is why Social Sciences should continue to be funded.
JULIA: Yes!
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: STEM is important, but also social sciences are too.
AMANDA: So, we'll make sure to put your colleagues' information in the-- in the description of this episode as well so folks can follow up if they're interested.
VIVIAN: Yes, do it. She's um, if you have any questions, she's always happy to talk about it. Um, she's-- she's a wonderful human being.
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: Beautiful. I love that so so much. That was from 2017 the episode that I was watching.
VIVIAN: Oh god, was it that long ago?
JULIA: Yeah, it was a time ago. We lost so much time over the past two years.
VIVIAN: I'm so old now.
JULIA: Aren't we all? Aren't we all though?
AMANDA: Have you found– because we make this space in Spirits, in part not to sound too high minded because like this– this stuff matters. And have you found in your career or in your research meeting to kind of prove that it matters or like, you know, have you? I'm sure, again, I don't want to, like, press on a bruise here, but sort of, I bet that there are a lot of people listening who know from their lived experience that this stuff matters and hearing others, you know, legitimize it, study it, look, point to it and say like, "Yes, that's the thing" is so meaningful, so I just want to give you some space to, like, address or talk about that if you wanted to.
VIVIAN: Oh, you don't need to keep me from ranting about. I mean, academia, traditional academia, I should specify is a very-- it's a space that's full of very specific type of people. Typically white male, cis hetero people, and people who think that, you know, studying opera is more important than studying a video game or something like that. Not that opera is not important, but it's the same, that level of things of it's more valid for me to learn a dead language and study a book that no one has picked up in 300 years than it is for me to talk about something that many, many, many 1000s to millions of people around the world love and connect to, so I am used to fighting these types of people.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And really making a case for it. And there was a particular time, I think it was about two and a half to three years into my PhD that I was just sick of it. And I was sick of trying to dance around it and be like, "Oh, no, but really, guys," so I was doing a paper at a conference about the subreddit, "No sleep." So, I decided that I was going to take a screenshot of the sidebar where it tells you how many people are subscribed --
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: -- to that subreddit. And how many people were online at that particular time on just, like, a random day, I took the screenshot, and I put it up on my slides to make a point of I was, like, 32 million people are subscribed to this subreddit.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: And you could see, like, faces change. But because especially with anthropology, like everyone studies, this small village in the middle of nowhere that three people live in.
JULIA: Mhmm.
VIVIAN: And that's a valid study. And it is a valid study. But the fact that I have to stress the millions of people that do this, just to make it seen as the same is incredibly frustrating.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: So, yeah, I keep pushing it. And there was at that same conference, there was– at the end of the panel, somebody was like, "Oh, I'm really glad that, like, you've really shown that you can do research online and talk to people online." And I was like, yeah, no duh. Like, where have you been in the last 10 years that you think you can't talk to people online? Like...
JULIA: You understand that's the way that most people communicate nowadays, right?
VIVIAN: Yeah, so but I do have to say that I think one of the– the best compliments I've ever received about my research was in-- in my Vibo, which is, like, my defense for my PhD. I had one of the examiners said that they went into it, knowing that I was studying Slender Man and these people who do this thing, as this is very silly. This is a bit of a throwaway. And just kind of a little bit scruffy. And they said that they left it feeling like this community had dignity and a reason and a passion. And I was, like, that, you know, you could fail me, and as long as you've said that, I will be happy. I mean, they didn't fail me, thank God. I don't know if I would have been happy, but they didn't. But, like, that, I think I've so far, um, I have kind of somewhat left traditional academia now, but that is what I endeavor to do with everything is that I want whoever's coming in to leave, feeling like the people that I've talked about have a level of dignity and passion and respect and that they are doing things that are good for them and their community. And it's complicated, and it's intricate, and it's just as complicated, as intricate as I don't know, your 300-year-old book in a dead language.
JULIA: Yeah. 100%.
AMANDA: Amen. I love that.
JULIA: I love that. I'm tired of people having to argue, "hey, my thing is important. Please listen to me." And the fact that someone validated you in that way. That's incredible. I'm glad that they came up to you and said that, certainly,
VIVIAN: Yeah. So that-- I mean, that's always-- that's what I live for. But I think that to kind of then swap it back from my own validation to other people. But I think that that's what I would really like for people to learn about things like fanfiction, or their --
AMANDA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: -- cosplays, or I don't know, even just sitting down and playing your video game is that your experiences and your agency within that story is just as important as the canon. And this, like, this conversation of canon versus non canon is always something that I really hate, and just being a fan, because for me, a fan fiction narrative is just as important as the canon of the original text, because your transformation of it and your agency over that story is inherently important. And hearing your voice is inherently important, so always, always make things and always tell your story and in whatever form you want to tell it.
JULIA: You are speaking to the right people, the right hosts, and also the right audience I feel like in that argument for sure. I do love that passing the validation along, so to speak, I think that people do kind of get told that their writing is silly and but, like, fanfiction is not worth the time and the effort and stuff like that and it is.
VIVIAN: It is.
AMANDA: It is.
VIVIAN: It is. It is.
AMANDA: Publish that chapter.
JULIA: Publish it.
AMANDA: Publish that WIP.
VIVIAN: Do it and send it to me.
JULIA: I don't even read the fandom that you're writing about, but send it to me. I want to hear about that.
VIVIAN: Sure.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I know. Have I watched multiple seasons of a show that I mildly cared about because a writer I really loved in fandom wrote fanfic about it? Yes. Yes, I have.
JULIA: Okay. What show? You gotta spill.
AMANDA: I watched, like, four seasons of Supernatural because someone I really loved wrote a Supernatural thing. And I was like, well, here we go. I gotta do it.
JULIA: You know what, fair enough.
AMANDA: You got to get into it.
JULIA: 100% Fair enough.
AMANDA: Black Sails is my next one. I know. I know people.
JULIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so so much for coming on the show. Where can people find you on the internet if they want to check out your stuff?
VIVIAN: Yes, you can always follow me on both Instagram and Twitter. I am at @VivianAsimos on both of those. I try to regularly post on that stuff about not only the research projects that I'm doing, but also just, I don't know, my incredibly sugary coffees that I occasionally have as well, so, you know, just join over there. And you can check out my website which is incidentalmythology.com, which is a blog where I actually do a little bit of the discussions about contemporary mythology and popular culture as mythology, so if you're interested in-- I mean, I'm sure you are, you're listening to this.
JULIA: Yeah.
VIVIAN: But you can go and check that out as well.
JULIA: Incredible. Dr. Asimos, thank you again. And listeners remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcribed by: John Matthew M. Sarong