Episode 380: Abandoned Places (with Blake Pfeil)
/Have you ever been haunted by an abandoned place? We are joined by multidisciplinary artist Blake Pfeil to talk about his experiences exploring abandoned places, how abandoned places are inherently queer, and why they haunt us the way they do.
Mutual aid recommendations for Gaza include buying eSims, urging U.S. representatives to call for ceasefire, and donating directly to calls for aid.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of religious trauma, religious persecution, child abuse, imprisonment, Nazis, homophobia, imperialism/colonialism, and Gaza.
Guest
Blake Pfeil is an award-winning multidisciplinary artist. In his “day job,” Blake steps into the role of Operations & Programs Manager at the nonprofit storytelling organization TMI Project, where he also serves as a producer for The TMI Project Story Hour, winner of an International Women's Podcast Award. He hosts The Pfeil File on Radio Kingston/WKNY (107.9 FM/1490 AM in the Hudson Valley, NY) where he also manages the Community Podcast Program. In all his non-existent spare time, Blake is an associate producer for season 5 of History Colorado's Lost Highways, a project of the National Endowment for the Humanities. His current passion project is All-American Ruins, a multimedia travelog in which he fantastically recreates his experiences exploring abandoned spaces through multimodal storytelling. The podcast arm of the project, abandoned: The All-American Ruins Podcast, was an Official Select at On Air Fest 2023, winner of the Top of the Rockies – Best of Podcasts (2023), and recently nominated for Best Indie Podcast at the Ambies (2024). All-American Ruins was also shortlisted for the Elevate Creatives Fund, the UK International Radio Drama Festival, and Hrvatska Radiotelevizija's 27th Prix Marulic. MA, Purchase College; BFA, Emerson College; Alumni, SUNY Stony Brook's Audio Podcast Fellowship.
Stuff we talked about:
- Blake’s interview in Atlas Obscura
- His appearance on American Hysteria
Housekeeping
- TOUR: Get tickets for our Rolling Bones Tour!
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends getting tickets for our tour before it’s too late!!
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Sponsors
- The Future is an Aquarian lab, shop and community space in the Witch District of South Minneapolis. Find out more by visiting their website at thefuturempls.com
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Find Us Online
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: https://multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
AMANDA: Conspirators, I have amazing news. Spirits is coming to a city near you with the Rolling Bones Tour, 7 cities, 10 days, end of March 2024. We are performing with your other favorite podcast, Join the Party, as we play games, roll dice, make monsters, learn stories, and a whole lot more. Come see us on March 21st in Seattle at the Here-after, March 22nd, Minneapolis at Granada, March 24th in Chicago at Reggie's, March 25th in Boston at the Rockwell, March 26th in New York City at Littlefield, March 27th in Philly at the City Winery, and March 28th in DC at Atlas Brew Works. Get your tickets right now at spiritspodcast.com/live. That's spiritspodcast.com/live. You can see all the ticket links there and find the city that works for you. Spirits in your city, us buying drinks, drinking the drinks, talking about stories. Gosh, we're so excited. We're coordinating our outfits already. Julia and I cannot wait. When you're rolling the bones, your future is looking good. Join us.
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AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And today, we are joined by the incredible multimedia artist, interdisciplinary friend, someone I talked to for about 45 minutes and thought, "Yeah, this is about right." Blake Pfeil. Blake, how are you doing?
BLAKE: I'm doing well. How are you, Amanda and Julia?
JULIA: Doing great, doing great. Can't complain. And I'm— I'm really excited to talk to you this week, but first, can you introduce yourself a little bit about who you are and what you do?
BLAKE: Sure. My name is Blake Pfeil. My pronouns are he/him. I am located in the Hudson Valley, New York, just south of the Catskill Mountains right where they start. But I was born and raised in Colorado. I am as, Amanda pointed out, a multidisciplinary artist. And for the past few years have been focusing specifically on audio storytelling as the medium that I'm capturing. I do that in a number of ways. The biggest personal projects that I've been working on in addition to my full-time job, my part-time job, and a contract position I have out in Colorado, is a multimedia project called All-American Ruins. It's a travelogue that uses multimodal storytelling to recreate my experiences exploring abandoned spaces all over the country, and actually, across the world now, and reimagines them for listeners, for readers, and for watchers.
JULIA: You sound incredibly busy, so I appreciate you taking the time to come and talk to us today on the show. It's gonna be a great conversation.
BLAKE: Oh, no. I'm glad to be here. I think what I'd love to start with is something that you suggested that we talk about in this episode, is the power of human imagination as it pertains to abandoned spaces.
BLAKE: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I know you're worldwide now in regards to the abandoned spaces that you talk about, but the kind of way that abandoned spaces fuel the imagination for American urban legends. I think it's a great conversation that we're gonna have here today. I always like to ask a guest, especially if we're talking about urban legends and something like that, was there an urban legend in your community, in this case, it would be Colorado for you, that you remember growing up with and being like, "This is something that has intrigued me about the— the urban legend space."?
BLAKE: Oh, 100%. There was this really fascinating abandoned house about 20 minutes north of the neighborhood I lived in, in the mid-2000s, right before I left for the East Coast, which was nicknamed, aptly and sort of cheaply, Hell House.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Classic.
BLAKE: Classic.
AMANDA: You know, when you remember that most of the people coming up with these names are probably preteens to teenagers, it makes a little more sense. Even though looking back, I'm like, "Really, guys? We couldn't have— we couldn't have just done a little more?"
BLAKE: I know. And the house— what's so funny about that— and it's such a great point you bring up. It's— it was located in the Black Forest of Colorado.
JULIA: Whoa.
BLAKE: So I feel like immediately there's some really good branding opportunities there. And yet we, as teenagers, still went with Hell House.
JULIA: It's just easier. It's more universal in that way, I feel like, you know?
BLAKE: Right.
JULIA: It's something that can easily spread pass to the community in— in that regard.
BLAKE: Yes.
AMANDA: And probably saying hell still feels a touch, you know, a touch rebellious. That doesn't hurt.
JULIA: Yeah. Like you're cussing a lot, you know? And obviously, this is the mid-2000s and not, you know, the 1980s when we're getting our Satanic Panic going on, but—
BLAKE: Right.
JULIA: —there's something about the urban legend, it's always kind of Satanic Panic time, even if you're retelling it in, like, you know, the 1980s or the 2000s. So I just— I think we always are concerned about Satanists is what it comes down to.
BLAKE: 100%. I— what's so funny is you're just making me think or wonder— I— you know, I grew up in a pretty conservative Christian household and I do think that among the many different acts of rebellion that I had as a teenager, especially pushing back against that upbringing, things like Hell House were one of the many ways that I was able to export that energy that was bottled up inside me when it came to— I guess we can call it trauma from the Evangelical Christian Church.
JULIA: I think we can.
BLAKE: Yeah, yeah. I think that's a fair— a fair assessment. But Hell House specifically totally became a space where— yeah, it was a— it was a creepy, terrifying place, but I think more so there was this weird feeling of safety embedded within not so much the house and the story behind it, but the experience of being in community with my friends, you know, these— these— these jolly theater kid misfits.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: Trying to just figure out what to do with the time on the weekends.
JULIA: It's got a great name. Did it also have a great story to go along with Hell House?
BLAKE: Yes, it did. And this— this one is juicy and it's a little— I won't say lengthy, but there— there are details that I must include.
AMANDA: Please, the more, the better.
BLAKE: Okay, great.
AMANDA: If we can go into like the web archive or, like, the local library and pull up specific dates and news stories, even better.
JULIA: We love a specific date. It's so good.
AMANDA: We do. There's something creepy about like on March 10th, 1920. You know?
BLAKE: Yes. Well— and— and this is where, I think, sort of the foundation of the— the creepiness of the story exists is my brother, who is a journalist, and I have spent now almost decades at this point, trying to sort out what the story actually was behind that house.
JULIA: Hmm.
BLAKE: And the town of Monument, Colorado, they don't have any information. The town of Black Forest, they don't have any information. The city of Colorado Springs at large, El Paso County, there is no information that we can ascertain from this space. It burned down in the mid-2010s. I want to say around 2015, 2016, right in line with the Trump presidency. If that is not symbolism, I don't know what it is. But the house itself, I was introduced to it from my best friend growing up, Rachel, who had this friend Chris, who had taken— taken friends there, and told Rachel about it. And so my first of many ventures to this space, you're driving down this road, which is aptly called Roller Coaster Road, because it does sort of go up and down. And so there was already this sense of, you know, roller coaster-esque dread approaching the space. And it was one of those many, like, treelined county roads in the middle of Colorado that you'll find pretty much anywhere, no— no matter if you're on the eastern side of the state of the western side of the state. You would turn off to a driveway that was sort of winding and long, very Rebecca, Daphne du Maurier-esque. You kind of turn around this corner, and then there was just this house. The story goes that there was a family there, and they had a young child who they kept in a cage that was built into the framework of a walk-in closet in one of the bedrooms. So I can sort of walk you through my experience of the space and tell you about that first time walking through. You— you approach the house, and there was a side patio, one of those sliding doors on the left hand side. And then on the right-hand side, there was a front door and then a garage, which was adjacent.
AMANDA: Unusual layout.
JULIA: Yeah, very odd.
BLAKE: It was odd. And it added to the confusion of the story, because if you go ask any of the people who I took to that house subsequently, they will all have a different recollection of what the layout of that space is. And it does add to the intrigue and mystery of it in a weird way. But I went there with Rachel and Chris and a few other kids from the neighboring high school. And when we walked in, we started in the garage, and I had heard about different pieces of objects or relics that they found, which sort of added to the tall tales behind this family of three and this unfortunate child. Of course, none of this was ever corroborated or confirmed. But in the garage, we walked in and there was this huge, long work table. We all sort of naturally circled around it, and there was a date book on the table, and we opened it, and we started going through it. And there were regular entries like dentist appointment or trash has to be taken out or whatever.
But then there were these other entries, that were a little more, dare we say, nefarious or along the lines of Satanic Panic. Things like let out.
JULIA: Hmm.
BLAKE: Put back in. And the last entry was a date from the 1980s and I'm not remembering exactly what it was but—
JULIA: That was gonna be my next question, was how recent where are these dates from?
BLAKE: This was old. This was old. It started in the '70s and it worked all the way up through the mid-80s.
JULIA: Whoa.
BLAKE: The last date, all it said was split skin.
JULIA: What? What?
BLAKE: That's where we started. That was just like the foundation of the experience. So as we're reading this date book, and I will never be able to explain this, suddenly, there was this— it— it sounded like a giant pterodactyl sort of whooshing around the entire perimeter of the room. And every single one of us sort of, like, felt it passed through our necks. And it— it was— there was a noise and there was a wind, and we couldn't explain it, but it was absolutely terrifying. So we thought, "Well, we might want to move to the house, because this is already, like, off to a bad start." So we go into the main house. And when you walk in that front door that I told you about that was between the garage and the sliding door, there was immediately a staircase, and it was clear that kids had been, you know, using fake blood and writing things on the walls, and— you know, entrance to hell, blah, blah, blah.
JULIA: Classic.
BLAKE: Totally.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: The piece that was so, I guess, alarming to me was there was— it— so you had this great open room, there was a kitchen, and then there were two hallways, and the hallways hugged a sauna room. That was like a homemade sauna room.
JULIA: Oh, no. Just from a building perspective. Oh, no.
BLAKE: Oh, no, indeed.
AMANDA: Yeah.
BLAKE: And you could see into the sauna, but you couldn't get in because there was some large object that was blocking the door from being able to open all the way. And to this day, many of the people who experienced it, say that that— it looked like a body bag. I had— I had nary the heart to be able to, like, really, like, investigate further.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: You went down the hall, the first hall, there was a bedroom on the left. And then at the end of the hall, there was like a back and then it went down the second hall going back towards that front room. The back corner of that house, there was a bedroom. And I have— my— we have photographs of this. I'll— I'll ask my brother if he can find them and send them. So there— it was a child's bedroom. It was very clear that it was a child's bedroom.
JULIA: Oh, no.
BLAKE: And I shit you not, there was wallpaper around the entirety of the room. And then in the back, there was a walk-in closet, and you open the door to the closet, and there were cage bars that had been built into the foundation of the house. When you open those cage bars, it was a— it was a floor to ceiling cage door. Like if you're— like, you know, when the Nazis tried to invade the nunnery in The Sound of Music and they get to those— just like those gates that they don't let them through. So that swung open. And then when you walk into the walk-in closet, there indeed a hole had been pulled up and there was a pit underneath.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
BLAKE: That I— we didn't really figure out how to ascertain how deep it was, because as we were, like, gaping into this hole, we heard a friend of ours out back, being like, "Guys, you have to come see this." So we went outside—
JULIA: I would be like, "Wait, hold on, you have to come see this because that— we— we'll swap, but this is pretty fucked up here, too."
AMANDA: Are you sure?
BLAKE: Totally. We went outside, and again, this probably was a Jimmy rig. They had horses, so very Samara Ring-esque. You know, somebody had taken a metal chair and they had attached it to the electric fence. And so that obviously spun off into different stories, et cetera, et cetera. The thing that was sort of the final act of my expe— my first experience we walked back around to the front of the house, and a friend of mine was like, "I— I— I think we need to get out of here." We all got in the car, and as we were driving away, Rachel said, "There's somebody upstairs."
AMANDA: No, Rachel. Oh, no.
JULIA: We didn't even get to the upstairs.
BLAKE: We didn't get upstairs, because we all were like, "This is not great."
JULIA: This is bad.
BLAKE: Like, this is bad news. Even if there's like explanations for all of it, still this is— there— there could absolutely be an in-person living upstairs, and Rachel swears that she saw someone. Nobody else did, but she was positive that she saw movement. So the epilogue to all of this, Chris' first experience before he took Rachel and I to this house, he did go upstairs. And upstairs, Chris found a box that had all sorts of, you know, objects in it, including— this is where the urban legend really comes in.
AMANDA: Julia is shaking her head already, FYI. Just flatly objects. Julia is like, "Fuck no. A box? Fuck that. No."
JULIA: Oh, a box full of objects in an abandoned house? Yeah, sure. That'll be fine. I'm sure it's all normal stuff that was left there.
BLAKE: Right, let's open it. Chris went into the box, and there was a music box in there.
JULIA: Absofuckinglutely not.
BLAKE: I know. And he wound it and it started to play. And he looked up, and he saw a figure in the corner of the room move to the opposite corner, and he dropped the music box, and booked it. The four of them ran out of the house, jumped in the car, busted ass all the way out to Roller Coaster Road. And I think they made it almost to the interstate, pulled the car over, they were, like, out of breath. And for whatever reason, when they hopped in the car, the driver had turned the radio to 92.9, which at the time was the oldies station, and it was the most potent signal that you could get in— in the city of Colorado Springs. As they were sitting there, suddenly the radio cut out, and they were like, "What— what's going on?" And Chris said, "Guys, shush, shush, shush." And he leans in— this is very cinematic. And if I were gonna direct this movie, there would be a slow— a slow zoom. He leaned in, and he started to turn the volume up on the— on the radio, and you could hear the music box playing over the airwaves.
Now, epilogue of the epilogue, Chris stupidly had taken a token from downstairs, I don't remember what he took.
JULIA: No, no, no, no.
BLAKE: And for the next three days, he started seeing people in his house. And so when he took Rachel and I to the house, he brought— and I can't remember what it was, he brought it back and— and it stopped. So that is the story of Hell House, and there were many, many other tales that friends of mine had. You know, my brother has a bunch of stories from— from the time that that house existed, but then it did indeed burn down. And we can't even find news articles about it burning down. So there's this really added layer to it, where it's like, "Well, was that like a collective dreamscape, nightmare-scape that we all invented because we were bored?" Obviously, that's not true. It was really there. But, yeah, that's the story of Hell House in Colorado Springs.
JULIA: I wonder if you could check, like, police reports to see when, like—
BLAKE: Hmm.
JULIA: —the fire department or police might have responded to the fire.
BLAKE: That's a really good idea.
JULIA: That's a suggestion. Also, the lingering question I have now is, what song played in the music box?
BLAKE: I know. I don't remember. It was probably something—
JULIA: I need to know.
BLAKE: —like Fur Elise, but I— I could— I— I don't think I still have Chris' number. I could text him and— and follow up.
JULIA: We'll see. We'll see.
AMANDA: Like, "Hey, Chris, real quick. Just listen to these 15-second snippets of, like, 1950s music boxes. Tell me which one haunts your nightmares, because I want to know which ones haunt mine.
JULIA: Yeah. What creepy, creepy song do you hear when you wake up at 3:00 AM in the middle of the night and say, "Oh, no, it's come back to me."?
BLAKE: Right. Right. Yeah.
AMANDA: There is so much to dig into here. And, Blake, I can already tell you're a great storyteller, and people should listen to All-American Ruins. But the thing that I am really curious about that I think you have vocalized uniquely among our guests so far, is the community and, like, absolute joy in a way of, like, experiencing that terror and thrill with others. So tell me about like the— the friends who you went with. How did it feel, like, reflecting back on it? I don't know. Like, what— what jumps to mind when it comes to, you know, these experiences that should be isolating, scaring us together?
BLAKE: I love this question so much, because in a way, the, again, merry band of misfits that frequented this property were all of my high school theater dorks. This— this was a group of kids who— you know, like many high school theater dorks or band geeks, or even color guard nerds, there's really nowhere for them to fit in.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: All of my friends and I had very active imaginations in varying capacities. And so I think that having been raised in this very conservative community where there wasn't a lot of opportunity to express a different side of existence, we did take hold of these kinds of opportunities. There's— there's a whole other urban legend that is very popular in Colorado Springs about this road called Gold Camp Road. It's the whole put flour on the car, you drive through the time old— the hands.
AMANDA: Yup.
BLAKE: That whole thing. Classic.
JULIA: Classic.
BLAKE: But we did all of those things. We made sure that we would take the time on our weekends to go experience all of these things, just because we had so much inside of us that was just pent up, unexpressed, and really unable to be expressed. And those were the moments where it was just us, and it was insular, and it was safe. And there was a sense of joy behind it. Despite the terror that we often experienced collecting those EVP recordings at the Colorado Springs Fine Arts Center.
AMANDA: Uh-hmmm.
BLAKE: Listening back to those EVP recordings, swearing that we weren't talking or moving when that part of the recording happened and whose voice is that? Those kinds of— those kinds of moments, I cherish those, and they laid the groundwork for what ultimately became the identity that I hold, which is a multidisciplinary artist. I think of that— that group of people fondly, Paul, and Jack, and Bailey, and Erin, and Rachel. We were all just trying to figure out where we— where we fit in, in the world.
JULIA: I think that's really interesting, too. When you think about, like, the abandoned building urban legend story, right? I'm thinking of like, Goatman bridge and like stories, basically, where it's like, the people who are haunting these or are like, associated with these locations are outsiders of their community. And the fact that, like, as an outsider in a certain aspect of your community, finding some, like, joy and, like, adventure from those stories and visiting those places is so interesting to me.
BLAKE: My parents introduced me to the work of Alfred Hitchcock when I was in sixth grade. It was sort of an unintentional thing where we would rent a movie from the public library every Friday night, they would bring it home. And for whatever reason, my parents— I think, actually, my mother rented Rear Window, which is the 1954 classic film by Alfred Hitchcock starring Grace Kelly and James Stewart.
JULIA: Great movie.
BLAKE: It pulled me in so quickly, and I remember feeling like this sensation of suspense that I'm feeling is so friggin' cool. And I want to be able to tell stories, maybe not like full of terror and, like, witnessing an unintentional murder, but more so I want to be a storyteller who can pull audiences in, like I feel pulled in, and feel the captivation that Hitchcock, I think, so brilliantly was able to— to elicit from— from his viewers. And still— and still does to this day.
AMANDA: Yeah. That— that word suspense really jumps out to me uniquely here, because I think— I mean, at least for me, you know, growing up like queer closeted in suburbia, there was just a kind of, like, gnawing suspicion and sense of suspense that, you know, I couldn't really put my finger on. If you had asked me to, I couldn't tell you why. But the— you know, if somebody knew something bad would happen, is, you know, is a— I think a very— a very common, you know, pubescent feeling. But especially for queer folks where if someone knew something bad might happen, and that's a feeling that I— I love to meet, again, on my own terms when enjoying things like horror or suspense, thrillers. It's so— I don't know. It's a meet so, like, lovely and pure that, you know, you and your friends would— would kind of like near the hot burner, you know? And, like, kind of touch it on your terms and then— and then come back before it got overwhelming.
BLAKE: Oh, yeah. And, you know, we made our own stories, too. My— I had my dad's camcorder from the time I was in fifth grade and—
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
BLAKE: You know, I had my dad's camcorder and I made a series called Evil Pinocchio using my brother's little wooden Pinocchio doll from— from Italy that someone had sent him or my mom had gotten him or something. And we— we made an entire series of this— this evil Pinocchio thing. And it wasn't— It's funny. Like I— at the time, I was so serious about it and I took it so seriously. I don't think I realized, and I couldn't have realized, that it— it was one of the many manners of escape that I had to be able to, as we were talking about the beginning of this, activate my imagination, to— to— to find sanctuary—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: —in— in a community where I did not feel seen or safe if I was seen.
JULIA: And that's the thing, too. Like, the minute you said, "Yeah, you know, me and all of my friends who were like theater geeks, and like band geeks, and stuff like that were the ones going to these places." I was like, "Of course, because these are the people who see an abandoned building, and can start to fill in the blanks, and start telling a story just based on, like, the information that is there." And that's what makes urban legend so great is this idea that, like, you take this one thing and being like, "There's a creepy house on our block." You're like, "Okay, why is it creepy?" You point out the little details that make it creepy. Where did those details come from? And then you start filling in the story. And so you're like, "Okay. Well, we can create something here." And then of course, you get the kind of word of mouth, game of telephone going on as the story spreads. And that's the best part about the urban legend is because it is created by just like the imagination going wild. And so you have these incredibly creative people like the— the band geeks, and the theater nerds, and whatnot. And they are finding that outlet in a place where they usually won't be able to find it otherwise.
AMANDA: Yeah. And for me, this sort of negative space of evidence makes this— in like the public record, makes this particularly scary because, you know, I think you expressed really well, Blake, like that— that feeling of, "Oh, something bad has happened here." Not just like it— it is happening here right now. And whether— like, thinking through the possibilities, right? Like, maybe somebody, you know, made a sort of like escape plan that they could lock behind them, that's sinister. Why? You know, were they afraid? Whether or not there was like basis for the fear, that's like sad in two different ways or scary in two different ways? Were they, you know, abusing a child with— did they have, you know, like needs or problems that they couldn't solve on their own and, like, the sort of chaos became infrastructural? Like there's— there's so much there that like literally in the foundations of this home was a— a thing that was meant to be impenetrable against something that was, like, ungovernable. And whether that's like human cruelty, or human fear, or, you know, whatever else it might be terrifying. And that just adds another kind of layer to this whole thing.
BLAKE: Totally. And I think, too, it's like that thing of we— we knew that most people didn't know that this place existed. And so whereas we know there are church pews, we know there's a youth group on Wednesday nights, we know that we can go to school and listen to our history teacher or math teacher— you know, blah, blah, blah. Nobody knew this was there, and we weren't going to tell the adults. No way where we're going to tell the adults. Where were—
AMANDA: They'll take it away.
BLAKE: Right. Where were you for three hours on a Saturday night? Oh, at Bailey's, you know, playing— playing Goldeneye, totally chillin'. Yeah. And I— it's— it's funny to think about the— the terror that we did feel also being inextricably linked to that— that joy and that safety. I don't think I ever really put those two things together. And that— that is— it's really lovely to have that as something to hold on to.
JULIA: I feel like we're accidentally encouraging like queer youths in communities to be like, "And so go explore some abandoned buildings, see what happens." But—
BLAKE: Do it.
JULIA: —do think safe.
BLAKE: Absolutely. Safety in numbers, folks.
AMANDA: Yeah.
BLAKE: Don't be— don't be stupid. But yeah, totally, go do it.
AMANDA: Be safe, yeah.
BLAKE: Totally.
JULIA: How about with that we go to a quick refill and then we'll be right back?
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JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. Let's start as always by thanking our newest patrons. Thank you to, to Dschenna and Vicc for joining us at patreon.com/spiritspodcast and signing up to be one of our patrons. They join the ranks of so many of our great supporting producer-level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. As well as our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Jeremiah, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can join them by going to patreon.com/spirit podcast and getting cool rewards like ad-free episodes, recipe cards for each and every episode, and so much more. Again, that is at patreon.com/spiritspodcast to join today. And hey, have you listened yet to Join the Party? Well, first off, I think you should, because we are about to go on tour with them. We're going to Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, and DC as part of the Rolling Bones Tour. They are wonderful. We have so much fun. And I think that you would enjoy listening to Join the Party if you haven't already. It is an actual play podcast with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators that make each other laugh each and every week. DM Eric and players Amanda, Brandon, and Julia, that's Amanda and Julia from the show that you're listening to right now. Welcome everyone to the table from longtime tabletop RPG players, to folks who have never touched a role-playing game before. You can hop into our current campaign, which is a pirate story that is based in the world of plant and bug people. Or you can marathon through our completed stories like the Camp-Paign, which is a Monster of the Week game that set in a weird summer camp. Campaign 2, which is a modern superhero game, and Campaign 1 for a high fantasy story. And once a month, we released the Afterparty, where we answer your questions about the show and how we play the game. So what are you waiting for? Pull up a chair and join the party by searching Join the Party in your podcast app or going to jointhepartypod.com, and hey, you can see us live by going to spiritspodcast.com/live and getting your tickets right now to the Rolling Bones Tour. I am so excited to see you there. We are sponsored this week by The Future Minneapolis. The Future is an Aquarian lab, shop and community space in the Witch District of South Minneapolis. They support artists working with magic and the majority of the items in their shop are made by women, and queer, and trans artists. They also host some really cool witchy events and popups, so it is for weirdos, by weirdos. You can find them @thefuturempls on Instagram or go to their website at thefuturempls.com. Also, if you're interested, they offer astrology readings through Silver Rising Astrology, which you can find on Instagram @silverrisingastrology or go to silverrisingastrology.com Check it out, The Future Minneapolis. We're also sponsored this week by Malliway Bros. Magic & Witchcraft. If you're in the Chicago area and love all things witchy, and cool, and creepy, I mean, you probably do because you're listening to this podcast. You can check out malliwaybros.com. That is M-A-L-L-I-W-A-Y-B-R-O-S, .com. Or visit them in store at 1407 West Morse Avenue in Chicago, Illinois. They host a bunch of cool classes, rituals, and celebrations about magical arts. And you can check those out by going to their meetup group, The Witches' Conclave at meetup.com/thewitchesconclave, all one word. And they also host events that are put on by other local community members of the shop here at Malliway's Guild of Magic, and you can check those out by going to meetup.com/malliways-guild-of-magic. And also if you are interested in Tarot or spell casting sessions, you can request those through their website, again, that is malliwaybros.com, M-A-L-L-I-W-A-Y-B-R-O-S, .com And now, let's get back to the show.
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JULIA: All right, we're back. And, Blake, I love to ask our guests what they have en— enjoying drinking lately, whether that is cocktails, mocktails, seltzers, coffee drinks, et cetera, et cetera. What have you been enjoying lately?
BLAKE: This is gonna sound like a plug and I guess in a way it is, but it's not intentional. There's a company called Hoplark and they make these absolutely delicious sparkling hopteas that are—
JULIA: Ooh.
BLAKE: —the— the closest— I can't do even non-alcoholic beers because they're a little too close to the real thing, which does—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: —cause a trigger. Hoplark, it's different because they're brewing it as a tea, but they're just infusing hops into it. So there's this, like, gentle—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: —suggestion of a hoppy situation, but nothing crazy. And they do a special brew that they release every month. They just released what they called The Cream Soda One and it was quite literally carbonated water brewed with hops and vanilla bean.
JULIA: Ooh.
BLAKE: Oh, my God, you never would have thought that hops and cream soda would go together, they do. I would highly encourage— encourage folks listening to go check out Hoplark, delicious. There is also a company called Hella Beverage Company. They have a sparkling bitters drink that is not the actual bitters, alcohol but it's everything that goes into brewing bitters. It is so good. It's sugar-free—
JULIA: Ooh.
BLAKE: —and it—— it truly does taste like the real thing. So I would say those are the two, like, biggies. And I also among the total caffeine addicts. It's like—
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: —a pretty natural thing for an alcoholic to replace the booze they can't drink any more with— with coffee, so—
JULIA: It's just sugar.
BLAKE: Yeah.
AMANDA: I know a lot of folks who are like, "Yup, it's candy now, it's candy now, and, you know, it's better, but it's something else now."
BLAKE: Right. I'm not, like, falling off of buildings now.
AMANDA: Yeah.
BLAKE: You know, I'm just enjoying controlling sugar. So I do have my—
AMANDA: Yeah.
BLAKE: —my giant canister. And my— my family has been making fun of me because I'm like, "Guys, I've— I've dialed back to, like, four caffeinated drinks a day instead of like 18."
JULIA: Proud of you, Balke. Proud of you.
BLAKE: Good job, Blake. Yeah. Way to go, buddy.
AMANDA: Hoplark's sounds so good and like— I mean, yeah, like why— hops and tea, that's such a brilliant combination, because like so many other things, like take a handful of hops and a handful of like chamomile, you know, like they— they look so similar. So that's awesome.
BLAKE: Totally.
JULIA: Yeah. And I— I was gonna say one of my favorite non-alcoholic slash/low alcoholic bevvies is just doing like a seltzer with a fun flavored bitter, so that is so appealing to me. I— I really like that.
AMANDA: Similarly, I have been trialing some recipes for my mother-in-law's birthday coming up. She saw a pomegranate cake on Instagram that she really wants, and so I've been using pomegranate molasses in baking.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Which is—
BLAKE: Ooh.
AMANDA: —an excellent ingredient. Totally pick it up if you're able to find it at a grocery store near you. But a really good way to use up that bottle, because it is very potent, is to put, like, quarter teaspoon, half a teaspoon into seltzer, and it is so delicious. It is like a bitter with a— almost like a balsamic sort of like savoriness. It's so good.
BLAKE: Ooh.
JULIA: I've used it for dressings, Amanda. It's— it's great. It's good stuff.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. No, I— I do like— like a chicken thigh with pomegranate. Oh, it's so good.
BLAKE: Wait, so it's just— just molasses that's brewed with pomegranate, is— is that—
AMANDA: It's like very distilled pomegranate juice, I think.
BLAKE: Oh, that's lovely.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And it's a— it's a big ingredient in Persian cooking, both savory and sweet. So good.
BLAKE: Oh, I'm gonna try that, for sure.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Delicious. Like over an arugula salad with a little bit of like Parmesan stuff.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So good.
AMANDA: Well, before we all get distracted with thoughts of our pomegranate molasses dinners, which I definitely want. I love Hell House as one of your origin stories, like— and I know that one of the things that you do in All-American Ruins is, like, convey the feeling of exploring those abandoned places via audio, which is so cool. And what are the ways that you've been thinking about— maybe it's a little bit vague, but like, how— how are abandoned spaces and urban legends queer in your mind?
BLAKE: I will start by saying the notion of the abandoned space, as indicative or representative of the queer experience, was something that came up in a conversation that I had with my buddy, Chelsey Weber-Smith, who hosts American Hysteria. It was— it was their idea originally. They— they brought it to the table. And when they said it in that conversation, I remember my lungs kind of catching because I thought, "Oh, my God, that's spot on." I think their idea that— sort of, strayed a little bit differently than what my brain was thinking, but essentially, if you think about the isolation that a queer person experiences, regardless of— of where it is or the varying degrees, the queer experience in the 21st century, obviously, things have improved vastly, and we still have a long way to go, but it is isolating, because we are fed messaging from day one, that says, "This is alternative. This is other."
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: And as such, you look at these empty, abandoned spaces, which are hidden from the world, which are isolated in that respect, it does become very symbolic of that experience, because it's in the shadows. It's something that people don't want to see typically. It's something that we're not told is beautiful, or intriguing, or inspiring. I hadn't even considered that until I chatted with Chelsey, on that episode of American Hysteria. It really redirected my thinking about the project in a lot of ways, not just because I'm a huge faggot, but also because, like, I— I wanted to understand what it wa— like what it was specifically aside from the human imagination and— and ghosts that drew me into these places. And I really do believe that— that sanctuary that I have found in spaces all over the world that have been discarded and left behind, especially the ones that look like they've been raptured.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: Those are indicative of my experiences as a queer person, and I— I'm so in love with that idea now, so they have kind of become part of my pride palette, as it were.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: And that is— that really has shifted my thinking. Also, not for nothing, you know, it's a blank canvas in a lot of ways. You— you go into this abandoned house, for example, that's right up the road from the studio that I'm sitting in. And you look at the bedframes, you look at the clothes in the closet, and— and you do wonder, who— who were these people? What— what stories are we never going to hear from— from these everyday folks? And what does that mean for me? So I think that is kind of how I've been thinking about it recently, and I'm really excited because I've been exploring queer themes more and more with the show, as time has gone on. And I'm— I've never shied away from it, but it— it is becoming more and more intentional as— as I approach pre-production on season three. So that's— that's been cool. It kind of reminds me in a similar way— I— God, this article is, like, so old at this point, but that BuzzFeed article from, like, 2017, I want to say, where it's like how did— why did queer people adopt like monsters and cryptids as their thing?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And this idea of like, "Well, we see ourselves as that, and society has been calling us like, you know, monsters, or villains, or something like that for so long, that, of course, we're going to embrace that. And I love the idea that— in the similar vein, abandoned places are so queer in that way.
BLAKE: Totally.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It's such a good intersection for our show.
AMANDA: No, exactly. And we're— we'll link to your interview with Chelsey in American Hysteria in the episode description, so folks can listen to that as well. I think that's a— a future crossover begging to— to happen. But I think, too, like practically, you know, we, as queer people, have to make do in the margins with scraps, with leftovers in places that others have abandoned so often. And then when those are identified as hip and re-gentrified, then we, you know, are displaced and— and go somewhere else to do it all again.
BLAKE: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And so just literally, like, I— I remember so vividly a feeling that I have trouble sort of putting into words, but like, you know, queerness for me, I always say, like, reset the map, the paths that I thought were available to me, choosing from you know, a handful of them as a, you know, a straight woman growing up in, you know, a middle-class family in the US. Those were sort of wiped off the board. And I was like, "Oh, I— I can and need to now decide like what my, you know, family, living situation, life goals, like all those things would look like. And it seems to me that a— an almost— you know, an abandoned place has been a soft reset in that way, where, you know, the infrastructure is there and there is something you can make do with, and there is a, you know, a suggestion of a shape, you can, you know, call back to the history, but it's something that, I don't know, has room for us in a way that a people's location doesn't. It's just like— it's just full of imaginative potential.
BLAKE: It is that idea of— you know, you see a no trespassing sign, sorry,
y'all, I'm gonna make my own rules here, because that's what we do as queer people.
AMANDA: Yeah.
BLAKE: We—, we create our own realities, and we get to choose what that reality looks like. And I do think that's pretty in line with what this show has become.
And it was unintentional, but it did become that. Also, I will say, Julia, to your point about that BuzzFeed article, there is a fabulous, fabulous, fabulous four-part series on Shudder called Queer for Fear.
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: And if you haven't talked about it on the show yet, it— it— that series, I think, took that article and really ran with it in ways that were so exciting and special. I would encourage listeners to— to go watch it. And if you don't want to sign up for Shudder, don't worry, they give a seven-day free trial, so you can get all four episodes and for free, and then be like a queer person and scooch out of there.
AMANDA: Yeah. They're one of our very early podcast sponsors, and I'm like, "Y'all don't—"
JULIA: True.
AMANDA: "—understand how right you got it." But they— they— we should really get them back.
JULIA: So a lot of our conversation we've been having so far is very like American centric, right? And as you mentioned earlier, Blake, you're not only doing American abandoned places now, but you're going kind of worldwide. Is the attitude around abandoned spaces different between like American abandoned spaces, and like other abandoned spaces in, let's say, like Europe and Asia?
BLAKE: Hmm. That is such a good question. Yes, it is. And also— I mean, I guess it just kind of depends on where you are. So the first one I explored was in Portugal, and it is an abandoned restaurant on top of a hill, overlooking the city of Lisbon. And that space, in particular, the city has intentionally opened up to the public, and have redesigned it so that it is, A, safe for everybody to access, and B, they encourage artists to come and tag the whole space. So it's become this, like—
JULIA: Whoa.
BLAKE: —safe haven for artists to go practice their craft in really, really cool ways. And it's like a free museum that's just— you— you wouldn't even know it was there unless you— you really looked it up. So, yeah, I think in that sense. They're in Portugal, anyway, they really valued the reuse of that space. I do think Americans— I think our culture doesn't focus on regeneration, or reusing, or recycling. I think we say that we do, but you know, you read all these statistics about, like, only 7% of what you recycle is— blah, blah, blah. I do think it's easy for us here, especially because capitalism and— and the trends that we see in the economy, it's easy for a space to just get kind of left behind and— and not do anything with it, because it's expensive to do something with it than to do nothing in this country. In Mexico, they are far more just kind of open about the spaces that are abandoned. They don't really try to hide them. There's a city in the Yucatan Peninsula called Merida. I explored an abandoned mansion there. And that one was interesting, because it was in the middle of a very wealthy neighborhood. It was just sitting there. And when I went in, there was clearly somebody living there. They weren't home at the time, but somebody had clearly taken up, calling it— it their home. There was a hammock. There— there was like a little space where they had stored some food. And so I left that one pretty quickly, because I suddenly was like, "This isn't— this isn't my house and this is occupied right now. And I haven't—"
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: "—I haven't been welcomed."
JULIA: Hmm.
BLAKE: In Finland, that one is a little more hidden, but I don't think it's intentional. I think that the abandoned house that I explored in— in the backwoods of Finland, it had its own urban legend behind it. And I was fortunate to be able to talk to the people who lived right next door, because I was staying at—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: —at their house. It's a, you know, dear friend of mine. That's her family's farm. But that one, it did feel like kind of similar to the way that— at least the Americans, I've come across think of abandoned space as where— there was intrigue and there was mystery. And what— you know, what— why is it still there and how could— and that one was— I think out of all of the spaces that I have explored, that one was the most preserved that I've seen, wherein everything was— and I'll send you pictures. Everything was inside. They had— there was a child's bedroom that had floor to ceiling, which is beautiful, beautiful books, anthologies, encyclopedias. And, you know, every once in a while, it does make me feel a little bit sad, because there's this weight of emptiness that is so difficult to describe. We— we— I can't speak for anybody else. I put so much stock into what my space feels like and looks like, and— and— and really value and put a lot of mindfulness into making sure that where I live and where I come home to is as close to a sanctuary as possible. And so when you see something like that left behind, when I see something like that left behind, it does create a little bit of sadness. And I— I— I don't— I don't know why necessarily, because you never know. People— they could have just said, you know, "This— this is it," and whatever. But I— I think that's—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: —you know, part of the experience of the human imagination, is every once in a while, things do feel a little sad.
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: And also in that same Finnish house, I— I took some of the best photographs that I've taken, and so that was joyful. But like Turkey, for example, there is an entire abandoned retirement village of these— they— they look like— like many Disney mansions, they're like little castles. I'll send you the link to that. There's— there was an article on, I think— whatever. I found an article and there's like—, there's like thousands of these little, mini castles that were just left behind because the developer ran out of money. So, like, what are they supposed to do? And I do think that's a little more American than the other places that I've been.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's a very imperialist mindset, right? Of, like, "Hmm, don't worry about whose land this was, we're going to take it over. And if we don't use all of it, then there's always going to be more."
BLAKE: Well, right. And dare I say, with the chance of getting scrutinized, you know, boots the house down. I have been seeing these images coming out of the Gaza Strip—
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: —since, you know, mid-October. And, you know, I had been pretty up to speed with the Palestinian conflict for— for many, many years. But the images that I've been seeing coming out of Gaza since October 7th, 2023, have been eerily in line with a lot of what this project talks about.
AMANDA: Hmm.
BLAKE: Which is the emptying of a space, not just the physical items, but the spirit that existed in that space, because people occupied it and left their spirit there.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
BLAKE: And so that has been— that's been troubling to watch be— for many— so many reasons that— that this conflict has been troubling to watch. But I—
AMANDA: Yeah.
BLAKE: —think that one in particular, just as far as like the All-American Ruins aesthetic goes, it's been— it's been tough. And I talk about this every so often on the podcast, where it's like sometimes— like I— I've— I've shown up to spaces that I thought were going to be there and they weren't, which is kind of like— kind of comes with the territory. Some spaces just aren't meant to be left there anymore. And if— if they are left, they can serve as huge points of pain for the community who once occupied them.
JULIA: Yeah,
BLAKE: The images of these empty homes with all of the things left behind, it's so brutal, and it's so gruesome, and it— it does make my stomach flip in a way that I can't really describe. It's part of the world. You know, leaving a building behind4 is— is quite an extraordinary thing.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. It begs the question, you're like, what happened here? Because something had to have happened here. You just don't leave your home one day.
AMANDA: Yeah. Most of the time, we don't do that by choice, that people don't leave the, you know, tools, and supplies, and— and kind of evidence of their lives behind by choice. And sometimes, you know, it is— it is certainly like a striking image. I think something about— something in our brains knows that that's not how it's meant to be.
BLAKE: Yep, absolutely.
AMANDA: Blake, there is so much more I can imagine us talking to you about. I have been— my gears have been turning about capitalism and how, like, spaces that are not, or in fact, anti-productive, I think, are inherently like rebellious. And I'm just going to be thinking about that, like, on my walk home and, you know, like, in— when I'm at— at yoga later. But apart from All-American Ruins, where can folks find you and your work online? Because I have a feeling you're gonna have a lot of exciting new listeners after this.
BLAKE: Oh, that's very sweet and kind. And I appreciate that so much and have been very appreciative of this entire conversation. If you just go to my website, it's blakepfeil.com and, you know, there's this really unfortunate German spelling of my last name, and I have to do it this way, because this is what I do with telemarketers, and people will inevitably screw it up. I've literally, like, sent the letters to bank tellers and watched them typed the wrong letters. But— so this is how I do it with telemarketers, it's P like Paul, F like Frank, E-I-L, is the spelling of my last name. So blakepfeil.com has pretty much everything that I'm doing up-to-date on that— in that space.
JULIA: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Blake. It was such a wonderful, wonderful conversation. And next time our listeners find themselves in an abandoned space, I hope that they remember to stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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