Episode 381: Ma’at
/Let’s play a game of Never Have I Ever with the gods. We’re talking about Ma’at, the balance of the universe, and how we all play a role in upholding order from chaos.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of light cannibalism, death, sex, classism, and power imbalance.
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- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And it is another wonderful segment of The Nile isn't just a river in Egypt. It's also what we've been doing by keeping a Egyptian mythology series from you on Spirits Podcast.
AMANDA: Going poet. That's it.
JULIA: I— listen, we still have a lot of options available, but that is the one that we kind of nailed down last time we did one of these episodes, so it's what we're going for at the moment.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Thank you, Eric Silver. And thank you, all of you for coming along with us on this journey into, at least for me, Julia, the thing that sparked my love of mythology in the first place, Ancient Egypt and the absolute lore and fascinating history and a rich imagery of this worldview that, you know, I don't want to just get from children's books and cartoons, but I want to get from the source. I want to— I want to get from these primary sources.
JULIA: And Amanda, I'm really glad you kind of talked about the imagery of Egyptian mythology as a whole, because the goddess and also concept that we are going to be talking about today is definitely one that appears in a lot of art that is popularized about Egyptian mythology. And you'll see a little bit— what I mean in a little bit, but what we're talking about today and who we're talking about today is Ma'at.
AMANDA: Ma'at. I can't believe that like all of us, she is a concept and a person, I can't wait.
JULIA: I— you know what? We are all concepts and also people at the end of the day, Amanda.
AMANDA: That's true. You know, like, have you ever describe to somebody like, "Oh, this is a real— this is a real Jake. Like, this person has a real Amanda in this aspect, or a real Julia in this aspect." I— I love that. I love when your role and mythos in a friend's life grows to exceed you and to become a representative example of something else, so I'm really excited to learn about Ma'at.
JULIA: Man, I never thought about it that way, but I love that. That's so beautiful. We're going to be talking about Ma'at. And when we talk about Ma'at, we aren't just talking about a goddess, but also a concept. One that is extremely central to all of Egyptian life. Now, Ma'at is loosely translated a lot of times to rightness or orderliness, and basically, it kind of represent the cosmic order. So as we remember, the universe was created out of a sea of chaotic waters, and Ma'at represents kind of the opposite of that. So when the world was created, as you remember, from our Ra episode, Ra set Ma'at upon the creation mound, creating order in a universe that was already full of chaos, so Ma'at is quite literally the personification of order. She is less the goddess of rightness in order and more of the concept personified. It's a subtle, but like kind of important difference that we have to keep in mind moving forward with this episode, and also in general, moving forward with this series, because as you'll see, Ma'at is so central to the ethos of Egyptian culture.
AMANDA: I'm stoked to learn about her.
JULIA: We talked about, in the Ra episode, how Egyptian royalty, especially the Egyptian kings and the pharaohs, were charged with maintaining Ma'at in the world. It's also really interesting, like when you're looking at a research and study about Ma'at, the capitalized version represents the kind of deity and goddess, while the lowercase like small Ma'at is, like, kind of the concept in the world talking about it.
AMANDA: Okay, very helpful.
JULIA: So these Egyptian kings, the pharaohs were charged with maintaining Ma'at in the world, because this was kind of a reciprocal relationship, because they were given divine right to rule because it was part of the divine order, and therefore a part of Ma'at. However, all Egyptians were divinely tasked with maintaining Ma'at within their own spheres of influence, whether that was in the household, in the workplace, in society, et cetera. So whatever was like important to them or wherever their place was in society, they were charged with maintaining Ma'at. And this was really important not only to the divine order, but also to the afterlife, which we know is extremely important in the Egyptian way of life. The dead were actually judged on whether or not they had done or spoken Ma'at, and this is reflected in funerary texts and tombs that we have as a reference. And something we're going to be talking a lot about in the later half of this episode.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: But it's also important to know that this means that both earthly and divine justice have no real distinction, because all of that justice and rightness that exists both by the gods standards and by mortal standards, all stems from Ma'at.
AMANDA: And either you, you know, advance, maintain, build Ma'at or you don't.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: And so whether you're judged when you're living or when you're dead, doesn't really matter, because it's all sort of the same— we're driving toward the same goal.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: We're flowing in the same direction.
JULIA: Exactly. That judgment is all stemming from the order of the universe, which is Ma'at.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: So how did worship of Ma'at start? We can talk about kind of her historic origins as well as her mythological ones. But starting with the historic ones, we know that she existed from texts in the Old Kingdom, and is mentioned in the Pyramid Texts, which if you need a refresher on those funerary texts, you can check out the first episode of this series. It's a really good kind of layout as to where these came from and why they were important. But in the Pyramid Texts, she is said to stand behind Ra as the creator and the king of the gods. And as we mentioned in the Ra episode, she is the daughter of Ra, but she wasn't always worshipped and referred to as that until the New Kingdom. So that was kind of a later development, kind of, like, mid-ancient Egyptian historical period is when she started being worshipped and referred to as the daughter of Ra.
AMANDA: Very cool.
JULIA: So this is really interesting too, because while Ma'at and the idea of the lowercase Ma'at, the concept of Ma'at, is extremely important in basically all of ancient Egyptian history, the worship of the goddess Ma'at ends up kind of falling on the wayside because as the worship of the goddess Isis grew in the later Egyptian periods, she kind of was subsumed by Isis. So goddess Ma'at subsumed by Isis, who then became the upholder of lowercase concept Ma'at.
AMANDA: Makes sense. The responsibilities remain, but exactly who you're praying to, exactly why it's happening, exactly who you venerate, what images you use, those can shift and change over time. But what I'm hearing is that the— the kind of central like value and moral and the thing that we're all driving toward remains consistent.
JULIA: And this is also true in what we talk about— like when we talk about ancient Greek history in terms of the mythology, we see a lot of like, oh, you know, that used to be this god, and then when the spread of Zeus as worship started happening, they were subsumed. And so Zeus gains a new epithet and is related to that god that is no longer worshipped.
AMANDA: Julia, it's like a sticky hand.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: And when you when you— when you put your sticky hand on the wall, around the ceiling, it's going to pick up the residue of what's there. And ultimately, what you're venerating is one sticky, sticky string that has lint, dust, carpet fibers, pet hair, maybe some belly button stuff. And it's all in there because it's a— it's a marker, not just of the hand that began, but the places that the hand has gone.
JULIA: Amanda, you're absolutely right. Never thought of a sticky hand as a good mythological analog, but hey, here we are, Spirits Podcast.
AMANDA: You're welcome.
JULIA: So that is the kind of historic worship of Ma'at, but in terms of the mythological origins of Ma'at, you might remember we mentioned Ra's two children, which is Shu and Tefnut. They were the first of Ra's children. And according to the Coffin Texts, Ra gave his children new names at some point. So Shu became the personification of life, whereas Tefnut became the personification of order and rightness aka Ma'at.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: So by giving them these new names, Ra brought them into existence. Again, kind of harkening back to that importance of names that we talked about in the Ra episode and also in the True Names episode that we did a while back.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So when Nun, as you remember the— the kind of personification of the chaotic primeval waters, he told Ra, when he renamed Tefnut, he told her to kiss Ma'at and place her at his nose, quote, "So that your heart may live."
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: We'll talk a little bit more about what that means, but there's not a ton of information from this myth that really survived. But we know that from the surviving texts that she is very central to Egyptian cosmology. And there's some interesting interpretations as to what Nun meant when telling Ra that he had to keep her by him so that his heart may live, we'll talk about that in a little bit.
AMANDA: Okay, good.
JULIA: But Ma'at, central to Egyptian cosmology, as well as a representation of something that is their central philosophy and ethos, order, this rightness, Ma'at itself.
AMANDA: It sounds like, Julia, Ma'at, like a lot have the kind of like very central gods and goddesses, often goddesses that we talk about, is like so important that it's kind of hard to pin down where she came from. That it's like— oh, you know, like, it's always been part of us, it's always been a value. She means lots of things. She's depicted in lots of ways. And, you know, like, what? Like, it wouldn't be necessary to kind of define or pinpoint a beginning to Ma'at and her centrality to ancient Egypt, if you were back then, from what it seems.
JULIA: And I think that's also very true in that a lot of times these kind of primordial goddesses end up, you know, predating the— I'll call it like the Golden Age mythology where she is now like Ra's daughter and Ra named her, and therefore, brought her into creation. She probably existed before that, and we know that she existed before that. And it wasn't until like Ra's influence grew that they decided to, like, have her be kind of the right-hand man, the favorite daughter, et cetera, et cetera.
AMANDA: So what did worship of her look like? Like, what does the record show us? How did people, you know, depict and venerate and like, you know, make her part of society?
JULIA: Well, that's a great question. Let's talk about art for a second.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: So if you were to look at art in a tomb or a temple, I would say that you would be able to identify Ma'at fairly easily.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Even though she is depicted as just like a human goddess, as opposed to the like animal and animal hybrids that we see a lot in Egyptian mythology. She has one very identifying feature.
AMANDA: What's that?
JULIA: A feather on her head.
AMANDA: Oh, okay. Like in her hair or, like, sticking up like an ornament?
JULIA: Sticking straight up.
AMANDA: Oh, cute.
JULIA: The feather is so inherently tied to the image of Ma'at, that even the feather alone can be enough to represent her in art.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: And sometimes she has a feather even in place of her head, so she'll be like human body and then just feather for head.
AMANDA: Okay, you lose me there. Miss me with that, but love the idea of a person with a feather ornamentation. I think that's very cute.
JULIA: And oftentimes, she is depicted as having wings underneath her arms, so like not just like full, like, wings that instead of arms, it's arm and then wing underneath.
AMANDA: Yeah, like a— like a fringed garment kind of thing?
JULIA: Yes. Precisely. So—
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: —in case, you haven't gotten yet very associated with feathers, very important to who Ma'at is as a person.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, do we get like a heart weighing with a feather on one side, a heart with another at some point, or is that like a Christian image that has stuck with me?
JULIA: Nope. A lot of this image of the feather is because of her role in the ceremony of the weighing of the heart.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: In case you listeners don't remember this, like Amanda does, it's been a while since we talked about this. In the afterlife, one's heart is weighed against the feather of Ma'at. We— we'll talk a little bit about that in a little bit, but keep in mind feathers, very important.
AMANDA: Okay, cool.
JULIA: One last thing in regards to the, like, imagery of Ma'at that I think is like a cool, little, fun fact, is that the hieroglyphic sign for her name, actually strongly resembles a builder's measure, or the plinth upon which the statues of the gods were placed.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: So basically, like kind of associating her with both order, like the— like the literal idea of, like, we have ordered measurements so that we can measure stuff properly, and also the like, holding up of the order of the world in which the other gods are able to function in.
AMANDA: That's amazing. A literal and metaphorical foundation for society.
JULIA: Isn't that so cool? I love that so much.
AMANDA: Beautiful. Yeah. That's, like, low-key very moving. Like, if I had to pick a symbol for myself, a carpenter's pencil or something would— you know, is the sort of analogy that comes to mind.
JULIA: Yeah. Or, like, one of those— the things that they use to measure circles and then draw them perfectly?
AMANDA: Yes. Not a protractor. No, we had to look it up now. One Google later, it's called, Julia, a drawing compass.
JULIA: Oh, I like that, but also the idea that it's a compass is in like a way to lead people on the right path.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: That's nice. That's really nice.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So this is made even more interesting, in my opinion, when you know what I know and what we've referenced earlier, about what the Egyptians believed that the gods were said to either live on or in Ma'at.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Which means— basically, it's kind of up to interpretation of the scholars. But some of it take it as like the gods needing to live near or by the goddess herself, fine. While others believed that they had to literally live off of her. So the latter interpretation has to do with her relationship with Ra.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Again, this is his beloved daughter by the New Kingdom interpretation. They're often seen traveling together on Ra's sun barge, as we talked about in the Ra episode. And it is said that she, quote, "delighted his heart and gave life to his nostrils."
AMANDA: Are his nostrils like the fertile ground out of which like reeds grow maybe?
JULIA: Hmm. Amanda, what is the— the deal with breath in Judaism?
AMANDA: Oh, good question. Basically, spirit and breath are the same, like every morning when— like every other religion, we have a morning prayer. The specific wording that ours takes is like, "Thank you for restoring the breath to me." The idea that like in sleep, you know, it might be dangerous and you might, you know— sort of your life coming back to you is not for certain, and so when you wake up and take that first breath, it's like, "Oh, thank God, I'm back."
JULIA: So I think that the Egyptians kind of believed something very similar, in that when we're talking about the like— the nostrils of Ra, we're talking about the breath that he takes as well.
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: So scholars believe that this is kind of like Ma'at giving Ra sustenance, either by him breathing in her energy, which is why she, "lives by his nostrils," quote-unquote.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: Or else eating her in some regard in order to give him power to live.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: Which is also a way that they translate it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So we got like, a very, like, kind of Jewish perspective, I think, in some ways. And again, these are religions that—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —you know, either coincided with the Egyptian period or, you know, predated in some ways. But you have the— the Jewish version, and then you have an extremely Catholic version in my opinion, which is the literal eating of Ma'at in order to sustain life within Ra.
AMANDA: Yeah. And, you know, again, those are— those are our particular examples. I'm sure most listeners can draw some kind of parallel, right? Like, we've talked in so many ways about, like, you know, folk wisdoms and healings that include, you know, eating or imbibing some portion of what it is that you want to channel and have more of, or maybe have less of. And just the— the business of, like, consumption and sustaining a body is something that I'm always so tuned in when that comes into our religious practice, because I think that's the central thing we're trying to reconcile, right? Is like being a being that can transcend our own form while also having one, definitionally, and how to, like, put those two things together.
JULIA: Yeah. I— I love that. And I just— I really liked this idea of Ma'at sustaining both Ra and the other gods, when we also consider that she is, like, literally associated with, like, holding up order in the world, so that the other gods may function within it. And I just think it's kind of this beautiful, beautiful, like, imagery surrounding her, for sure.
AMANDA: Julia, may I say? I'm having a lot of feelings as an oldest daughter right now.
JULIA: Hmm. Okay, te— tell me more about that.
AMANDA: I definitely have talks in therapy, a time or two, about feeling like, you know, as a— a child, my role was to lift up the other children. And that, you know, whether it's a parental relationship where, you know, the— the kid is taking on, you know, too much of the parents' responsibility, maybe there's a version of that, that feels really good, of being responsible and being, you know, entrusted with something. But the idea that Ma'at is like a favorite daughter, who literally sustains her parents and everyone else around her, is making me wonder how Ma'at feels about all of that, and how she bears that responsibility.
JULIA: That is very interesting. I'm not sure that the stories give her enough personification to really, like, get a insight into what she might feel about all of this. I think that because she is Ma'at, and she is the literal personification of order and hierarchy and everything like that, the idea of her questioning where she fits in the order of the universe, like, it seems unquestionable, in my mind.
AMANDA: It doesn't compute, right? Yeah. Like, I'm—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —I'm— maybe that's part of the point too, right? Like, I'm— I'm not strong enough. I'm not enough to bear all of that for, you know, several people, much less all of society. And perhaps, that's what makes her—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —a god and not a person.
JULIA: Exactly. I was gonna say, while you are a wonderful goddess of a human being, Amanda.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: You are not a literal goddess, so that is not your job to uphold the entire universe's order.
AMANDA: That's true. I'm neither a plinth, nor the other thing.
JULIA: Neither a plinth, nor a drawing compass.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So basically, again, what I was saying before, we don't have a lot of ,like, very specified texts about what exactly the interpretation of that means. And so, therefore, it is kind of left up to interpretation by scholars. But what we do know is that Ma'at's presence was considered vital in the daily regeneration of Ra, which we spoke about in the previous episode. So—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —like, universal order would not be maintained if Ma'at was not so close and so supportive of Ra.
AMANDA: Was that ever in question?
JULIA: I don't know. I don't think so. I think that it is one of those things where it's like— much like the sun rises every single day, we know that Ma'at will be there for her father, to make sure that the order of life itself continues.
AMANDA: Lovely. Well, I can imagine that being used in a lot of poetry, you know, of like, my— my constancy is like Ma'at to Ra.
JULIA: I like that. That's beautiful in a way, you know?
AMANDA: Thanks.
JULIA: So since Ra, as the king of the gods considered Ma'at his favorite child, it is not very surprising that she was held in such high regard by the Egyptian people. Like, as I mentioned before, the main purpose of a person's life was to live by an honor and work towards maintaining Ma'at. So she is like a gift that was given to the people and to pharaohs, and she was considered both a gift, but also like a task, which I think is really interesting, you know?
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Like, here's the gift of order, but it's up to you to maintain it.
AMANDA: And, you know, I'm— I'm glad you brought up the parallel to Judaism here. That's how we think of all of the mitzvahs, like the— the things that we are supposed to do, the good tasks that we're supposed to uphold. There are many hundreds, if not, thousands of them. And it's— it's both an honor and a burden to need— to— because we know them, to need to live them out.
JULIA: Yes. And I think that's really interesting because I think that translates into how Ma'at was worshipped in a lot of ways. So she was oftentimes an icon or a representation of her, was made as offerings to other gods as a way of basically, like, the worshiper demonstrating their intention to live up to the ideals of Ma'at.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So it's like, not only am I giving you this god or goddess as offerings, but I'm also showing you that I am maintaining the hierarchy in which you are at the top and I am here worshiping you. And I am committed to that, you know, for the rest of my life and also my afterlife.
AMANDA: Yeah, I'm— I'm really drawn to systems of belief, where it's not just knowing, it's not just thinking, it's not just saying, but it's also doing where you like, you know, pray with your feet or with your body, right? Or, like, with your— with your actual actions, what it is that you actually want to see in the world.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. I love that so much. I just like— I love Ma'at. I'll be honest, I really think that she's a cool goddess and a cool concept, but—
AMANDA: Great name.
JULIA: Great name. But we know that Ma'at, very important kind of at the center of each and Egyptian life. We know that her worship was fairly well spread. We'll learn a little bit more about her and her role in stories that kind of make up the mythology, but first, we're gonna have to grab a refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. We have some new patrons in our Patreon, but we will update you on their names just as soon as we are back from tour. But in the meantime, thank you to our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And of course, our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Jeremiah, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And hey, if you've been enjoying Spirits and you want to check out what else is going on at Multitude, have you ever checked out Exolore? Have you ever wondered what life would be like on a planet that is different from our own? Or how writers create your favorite fictional worlds? Well, wonder no longer, because we have the facts for you. Every other week, astrophysicist and folklorist Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional world-builders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built. You'll learn, you'll laugh, and you'll get an appreciation for just how special our planet really is. Subscribe today by searching Exolore in your podcast app or going to exolorepod.com. And this episode is sponsored by Soul. Look, I am always looking for a natural way to wind down. And typically at the end of a long day, I'll go for a glass of wine, or a beer, or like make myself a cocktail, but I don't always love the feeling of that. You know, sometimes I don't want to worry about a hangover, or— or bloating, or just like having to deal with making a cocktail. I love cocktails, but sometimes it's just— it's not enough. And that is why I'm really obsessed with Soul's new out-of-office THC gummies. This podcast is sponsored by Soul, and did you know that you can now buy hemp-derived THC products in all 50 states in the United States? With Soul, you can. With their brand new out-of-office gummies containing hemp-derived THC and CBD, you can help get that much-needed me time at the end of the day or even during the day. Whenever you need it, Soul is there. And how can Soul send you THC products no matter where you live in the United States? Is because of the 2018 Farm Bill. Hemp-derived THC is now legal and accessible nationwide and it's great. With out-of-office hemp-derived THC, Soul delivers a variety of gummies that help you get buzzed, but not blitzed with a predictable microdose euphoria. Now, I feel like, after a hectic day, being able to just kind of relax by taking a little gummy is kind of life-changing. And the Soul team suggests that you just, like, start by eating one-half of one gummy and then waiting about 45 minutes to an hour to start feeling those effects and you can start feeling those warm, fuzzy, euphoric microdose feelings, but still be able to, like, be yourself. You can go for a jog, you can watch your favorite show. You can catch up on some emails, whatever floats your boat. I know I love doing a little movie night at the end of the day with Jake after taking a little gummy, and we have a great time. It's awesome. And that's not all Soul's got. Whether you're looking for a sleep aid, which I know I use mine for as well, enhanced focus, or pain relief, Soul has your wellness needs covered. And Soul's products are grown right here in the USA, organically farmed and gluten-free. So give Soul a try. Head to getsoul.com and use the code Spirits for 30% off your order. That's 30% off your order using code Spirits. One last time, getsoul.com and code Spirits for 30% off. And now, let's get back to the show.
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JULIA: Amanda, we're back. And for Ma'at, I was kind of thinking about what kind of cocktail that I wanted to make for this one. My first instinct was that there's a classic Kansas City cocktail, that's called the Horsefeather.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And I was like, "Well, that kind of works, because like feather is super important to Ma'at, et cetera, et cetera.
AMANDA: Horses pull sleds, so there you go. Like across the sky, like Ra.
JULIA: Oh, yes, cool. Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. I was like, "Where are we going with this?"
AMANDA: And then— and then it's a— I know it's a boat, not a sled. You know what I mean.
JULIA: I mean, Erie Canal, Amanda, the— the horses pull the boats through the locks and whatnot.
AMANDA: Don't get me started. Julia, note to self, Erie Canal mythology. When we do our Great Midwest tour, that will be there.
JULIA: Great.
AMANDA: Alright, moving on.
JULIA: The Horsefeather didn't feel quite right, but I thought about, instead, my favorite category of drink to make, which is an equal parts cocktail.
AMANDA: It is.
JULIA: Because, basically— so these are cocktails that are made up of multiple ingredients, but all of the same amount of each ingredient. So for example—
AMANDA: I see where you're going here, some order.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. My favorite cocktail is the last word, that's an equal parts cocktail. So it just makes sense to me that Ma'at would be kind of all about balance. And so would probably love the idea of like, oh yes, equal amounts of all of these things creates a nice balance cocktail.
AMANDA: Exactly. Like the strongest shape, the triangle.
JULIA: Exactly. So for this episode, I am bringing back a cocktail that was popularized all the way back in 2022, Amanda.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: You might remember House of the Dragon actor, Emma D'arcy?
AMANDA: Oh, yes.
JULIA: So I am recommending for this episode, the Negroni Sbagliato, aka the Mistaken Negroni. It's basically just an Negroni, where the bartender accidentally grabbed Prosecco instead of gin.
AMANDA: What?
JULIA: And so made the Negroni with Prosecco. So instead of a Negroni, which typically has gin, they add Prosecco instead.
AMANDA: Negroni Sbagliato with a Prosecco.
JULIA: Sbagliato. It's the Negroni, but I fucked it up.
AMANDA: What a— what a throwback. I'm thinking the Aperol Spritz, but no, that was like, 2017. What am I doing?
JULIA: Yeah. But hey, it's been two years since we were all really obsessed with that weird Negroni, huh?
AMANDA: Sbagliato.
JULIA: Sbagliato.
AMANDA: With Prosseco.
JULIA: Alright. With those in hand, let's talk a little bit about Ma'at foundational stories, which kind of give us a better idea of how the Egyptians viewed Ma'at. So first things first, we know Ra was the father of Ma'at, but did you know she also has a husband? In some stories, not all stories, but some stories.
AMANDA: Oh, interesting.
JULIA: So she is said to be married to the god of wisdom, Thoth, who we'll definitely be covering in a future episode, like a full Thoth episode. But Thoth is sometimes seen as the masculine counterpoint of Ma'at, and he was often depicted as being responsible for upholding Ma'at. So—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —like the concept of Ma'at, not upholding his literal wife, but since he's—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —responsible for upholding the concept, it makes sense that he would be married to the personification of that concept.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: I'm trying to think of what the, like, equivalent nowadays of that would be. And it's like— I guess like a tennis announcer being married to a tennis player or something like that.
AMANDA: Yeah. I'm trying to think of ones that don't involve like a messed-up power dynamic.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. This, for the record, not a messed-up power dynamic between Thoth and Ma'at.
AMANDA: Right, right. Yeah. Right, because if it was like, oh, you know, a musician and their manager, like, we all know that that goes bad. Or like an— even like an artist and a museum curator, but they work separately. You know what I mean?
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah, no, that makes sense. I like that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So Thoth is kind of seen in the mythology as this kind of just judge and this incorruptible officer, basically.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: He is in charge of, like, basically writing down all of the deeds that a person does in their lifetime. So that when they are being judged in the afterlife, he can just kind of make a reference to it and be like, "Okay, I can see that you did a pretty good job."
AMANDA: Now, Julia, if it were me, Thoth would be like, "Wow. You really like Miller High Life and goldfish, huh? It's like a good— a good quarter of your meals. Is that— do you feel good about that?" And I'd be like, "No Thoth, but it's what I— it's what I am. "
JULIA: But Thoth would then be like, "Well, I mean, it doesn't put the order of the universe out of order, so it's probably fine."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: You're not hurting anyone besides yourself by eating goldfish and Miller High Lifes all the time.
AMANDA: That's true. And you know, I'm— I'm keeping the pony bottle manufacturing business, which was briefly, you know, put on hold during COVID in business.
JULIA: Yes. Maybe that is your upholding the hierarchy of the universe.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: That's your version of upholding Ma'at.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: So in some versions, the two have children together, most notably the goddess Seshat, who is the goddess of— Amanda, this might be your— your domain, now that I think about it.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Measurement and writing.
AMANDA: I love measuring and writing.
JULIA: I know you do, I know you do.
AMANDA: Oh, it's really good.
JULIA: So, honestly, it seems right out of the money for those two to have a child who is about measurement and writing.
AMANDA: Julia, do you know who the author Cory Doctorow is?
JULIA: I've heard the name, but I couldn't tell you any of their work.
AMANDA: He writes a lot of like speculative fiction, cyberpunk science fiction, and he's also a sort of like internet neutrality and freedom fighter. And recently, I was listening to an interview with him, and he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, my parents who were, you know, Nazi Germany refugees who settled in Canada and then established a, like, Yiddish socialist day school. And I was like, "Oh, that's how you get a Cory Doctorow. That's how you get somebody, like, deeply obsessed with— with, you know, freedom and socialism, and like the sci-fi intellectual tradition. That's exactly how you get one of them."
JULIA: And I mean, that's how you get someone like Seshat, so it makes sense. So, you— you can kind of look at—
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: —parents sometime and be like, "Oh, I see how you birth this person, it all makes sense now."
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: I— I— honestly, I wish there was kind of like a fun story about, like, how or why the two are married or like, you know, the birth of Seshat or something like that. I couldn't find anything in my additional research, so it kind of falls under that same category of it's like, we have so little, like, actually surviving texts—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —about ancient Egypt and Egyptian mythology that it gets really hard for us to be like, "Okay, well, like working around what we kind of know based off of those funerary texts, we can assume that, you know, this person was the daughter of this person, and they were married." We just don't get the story on how they were married or anything like that. Something that is interesting to me is that there is a bunch of like Golden Age myths that reference a period in which Ma'at ruled the world, as opposed to Ra, which I think is kind of interesting.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: This was, of course, a great time for humanity, because, of course, the one person that you would want to be in charge of the universe or the world would be the goddess of order, and rightness, and justice.
AMANDA: Yeah. What changed? I'm so interested.
JULIA: So it was said that, eventually, Ma'at was said to have withdrawn from Earth to the heavens, because she was grieved by the wicked behavior of humanity.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: Kind of similar to how Ra withdrew from the Earth after humanity turned against him.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: However, it was believed that Ma'at could still be thought of as like living with an individual, like the way that the research pointed to it was almost like a, like, guardian angel-type figure, like the— the good angel on your shoulder.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But basically, like, keeping a protective eye on people, accompanying that person into the afterlife, which is part of the reason that joining Ma'at was used as a euphemism for dying in that period of time in Egypt.
AMANDA: There's way worse and less poetic euphemisms for dying. That's like— that's pretty good.
JULIA: That's pretty good. You know, like, not the best one I've heard—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —but like high up there, you know? Like, definitely higher on the average curve.
AMANDA: Yeah. I— I think there is a real beauty in that where, you know, something about— maybe you don't like that this is the order, but something about this settles something, when it feels like it unsettles and uproots, right? Like so much of your life. Hmm, I'll be thinking about that.
JULIA: Because we have that euphemism for dying, that brings us back to Ma'at's role in the afterlife.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: So we know that in the Book of the Dead, the Hall of Two Truths, which is sometimes translated as the double Ma'at, because, again, remember Ma'at can be translated to truth or justice. This is where the souls of the dead would be judged. There, the heart of the dead would be weighed against the feather of Ma'at. And if like Ra, the person had Ma'at in their heart, the scales would balance and the deceased would be declared true of voice or justified.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: What happens to the dead if the scales don't balance, we'll be touching on that in a later episode.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: So another thing that I think is important to talk about is the 42 Negative Confessions.
AMANDA: Excuse me?
JULIA: Now, we know from the Book of the Dead and other sources that the Egyptians would do something that we basically call negative confessions to the gods and goddesses that witnessed the weighing of the heart. Now, these were basically lists of things that they hadn't done, but could have, but didn't do.
AMANDA: Oh. I will be great at this.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. So it could really vary from person to person and source to source, but the one that we have written down that's been preserved comes from the Papyrus of Ani, which is a text of the Book of the Dead prepared for the priest Ani of Thebes, and included in his grave goods that they found in his tomb. So these negative confessions were personalized, so they're specific for Ani of Thebes, not anyone else's negative confessions. But it'll give you kind of a general gist of what these looked like.
AMANDA: I'm fascinated. Let's do it.
JULIA: Yes. Also, before we get into it, I just want to read what scholar Erik Hornung said about the negative confession, because it'll give you a kind of idea of— kind of what their role is. So he says, "Each denial of a specific form of injustice cleanses another layer of the earthly taint, bringing forth unblemished justice, Ma'at, and ensuring the purity of the deceased, which is a requirement for the blessed life in the beyond. Magic is at work here, not as a substitute for ethically spotless behavior, but rather as an additional measure available to men in the most dangerous episode of human existence."
AMANDA: I'm sure that was really interesting, and I'm gonna re-listen to it later. I have just been thinking about the phrase "earthly taint" for the last 90 seconds. So—
JULIA: I'm so sorry.
AMANDA: That's just where I'm at.
JULIA: Alright. Would you like to hear the 42 negative confessions of the Priest Ani of Thebes?
AMANDA: Fuck yeah, dude.
JULIA: Alright. "I have not committed sin. I have not committed robbery with violence. I have not stolen. I have not slain men or women. I have not destroyed the grain. I have not reduced measures. I have not stolen the gods' property. I have not told lies. I have not stolen food. I was not sullen. I have not committed fornication. I have not caused anyone to weep. I have not dissembled. I have not transgressed. I have not done grain profiteering."
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Grain profiteering, that's a big one.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "I have not robbed a parcel of land. I have not discussed secrets."
AMANDA: Ah, shit.
JULIA: "I have brought no lawsuits. I have not disputed at all about property. I have not had intercourse with a married woman. I have not had intercourse with a married woman," repeats the previous affirmation but addresses it to a different god.
AMANDA: Okay. So it's like both of you, I'm just gonna affirm, one to each hasn't happened.
JULIA: Hasn't happened.
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: "I have not wrongly copulated. I have not struck terror. I have not transgressed the law. I have not been hot-tempered. I have not been neglectful of truthful words. I have not cursed. I have not been violent. I have not confounded truth. I have not been impatient. I have not discussed. I have not been garrulous about matters. I have wronged none. I have done no evil. I have not disputed the king. I have not waded in the water. My voice was not loud, spoken arrogantly or in anger. I have not cursed a god. I have not made extolling or bragged. I have not harmed the bread ration of the gods. I have not stolen the khenfu cakes of the blessed dead. I have not stolen the half-new cakes of the youth, nor have I fettered the god of my town. I have not slain a sacred cattle."
AMANDA: What a list. Now, do we know— would people get creative with this, and say if they have killed a woman but not a man, say I've not killed a man and leave it at that?
JULIA: I mean, I suppose you could, certainly. The problem is we really only have Ani of Thebes' like full accounted for lists.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: It's the only, like, surviving one that, at least, I could find on record. But we do know that this was like a practice that one would do. So I guess you could technically list whatever you wanted. It's also worth knowing this was prepared for Ani of Thebes and not, like, written specifically by him.
AMANDA: Oh, it wasn't like a I draft a will while I'm living, and then it like stands for me when I'm dead? Other people around him were like, "You know what? I can definitely say he never raised a lawsuit."
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that was probably more it, and then they probably cover, like, the real basis of things.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And then, you know, you're just like, "Well, listen, I never saw him be violent or I never saw him discuss secrets, you know?"
AMANDA: I guess that could be kind of beautiful when—when the person passes away. And anyway, it'll come out in the wash with the weighing of the heart, right? Like, it's— it's not as if there's going to be deceit going on.
JULIA: Exactly. And this is what— what Erik Hornung was saying too, was like, basically, this is not a substitute for ethically spotless behavior, but rather as an additional measure available to men in the most dangerous episode of human existence.
AMANDA: Julia, I gotta say these negative confessions are the opposite of Al Chet, which is the prayer we say on Yom Kippur, where as a congregation, we say like, "I have sinned knowingly, I've sinned unknowingly. I've sinned intentionally, I've sinned unintentionally." Like we go through— say it 10 times, like dozens and dozens of things that someone, somewhere in this room has definitely done. And, you know, the idea is we make meaningful repair for those actions and start again the next year, hoping that the next time we say it, it won't apply to us.
JULIA: That is beautiful, I love that. But now I can only get out of my head that these negative confessions are playing the game Never Have I Ever with the gods.
AMANDA: Yes, they are, Julia.
JULIA: And that's just so silly. I love that so much.
AMANDA: Julia, never have I slain a sacred cattle, not one.
JULIA: Not one.
AMANDA: And then someone in the room is like, "Shit!" And finishes their drink.
JULIA: Yeah, someone in line behind them is like, "Fuck! I did— I did do that."
AMANDA: "Damn, I was garrulous all the time."
JULIA: "Never have I harmed the bread ration of the gods."
AMANDA: "Damn. I— I did—I did commit fornication. Shit. Damn."
JULIA: So these negative confessions are important, because again, it shows how the dead need to uphold Ma'at in their life in order to please the goddess, and also help the scales to balance, right? Now, there is one other story that's not about the goddess herself, but it's about the ethos of Ma'at, which is called The Eloquent Peasant.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: It's a little bit of a long story, but it is the tale of a peasant whose name is Khun-Anup, who comes across the property of a nobleman, which is guarded by his harsh overseer, right? Now, this story is kind of a reflection on the connection of ethical order and refined speech, as well as upholding Ma'at. So— because Ma'at focuses on harmony and balance, it allows the kind of social hierarchy to be prevalent in the average person's everyday life, right? Like, Ma'at is being upheld constantly by everyone in the world.
AMANDA: Yeah. It's not just about noble people, it's not just about policy, it's like how we relate to each other every day.
JULIA: Yes. And so this story actually gives us a glimpse of how justice and crime was obtained. Remember how I said earlier in the episode that divine judgment and earthly judgment were the same because they all derived from Ma'at. So, like, even though guilt in some cases is determined by hierarchy, justice can be served by judges, because judges were expected to interpret Ma'at on a case-by-case basis. So, like, you can be like, well, you know, in— in the story, it's like this harsh overseer is like, "This peasant should not be allowed on the land of this nobleman." And this guy is like, "But, actually, Ma'at says that I am allowed to be here and justice will be served.: And so when they go in front of the judge, the judge is like, "Actually, he's absolutely right and has spoken truth. And by speaking truth has spoken Ma'at."
AMANDA: That makes sense. You have to have— you know, you can't, like, prize hierarchy above all if there's no other like higher truth. I feel like it's a human thing that will be corrupted.
JULIA: Yeah. And— exactly. So Ma'at has to be constantly interpreted in order to maintain justice and justice comes from Ma'at.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I— actually, I have a little poetry corner from The Eloquent Peasant in which he talks about the nature of Ma'at. Are you ready for that?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So he goes, "When you go down to the sea of justice and sail on it with a fair wind, no squall shall strip away your sail, nor will your boat be idle. No accident will affect your mast, your yards will not break. You will not founder when you touch land. No flood will carry you away. Will not taste the river's evils and you will not see a frightened face."
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So basically, this kind of beautiful idea of like, you know, "The sea of justice, you will have fair wind, the wind will never get strong enough where it will rip away your sail, nor will it be like so idle that your boat will become immovable." You know what I mean? So this idea—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —of this kind of balance, and that is what Ma'at is at the end of the day. It's this idea of divine balance.
AMANDA: That sounds perfect.
JULIA: So I— I just really liked the idea of like, yeah, you know, like, the wind will be there for you to set sail. It will not, you know, stall you and it will not rip away your sails. It's just like a really beautiful image.
AMANDA: Exactly. And, you know, don't be sort of ungrateful or upset that you're not going fast enough. because much better than the alternative.
JULIA: Yes, precisely. So that is what I have for Ma'at, and I think that learning about her really gives us a great idea of the ethos and basis in which a lot of the stories and deities that we'll be talking about in future episodes are kind of based on. By understanding Ma'at, we understand Egyptian culture and the culture that created this mythology. And so as we approach future episodes, I hope that we can, like, kind of keep in mind that at the end of the day, all of the stories are there to reiterate that finding justice and balance was perhaps the most important thing to ancient Egyptian culture.
AMANDA: Right on. I'm really excited to think about Ma'at, and how she is being upheld, and how the concept is being upheld or not, as we continue through, Julia, our landmark and really, really easy-to-remember series, the Nile isn't just a river in Egypt is what I've been doing by keeping an Egyptian mythology series from you all through this podcast.
JULIA: Very easy to remember. I'm sure if we spelled out the acronym, it would spell something very, like, synced and perfect.
AMANDA: How it begins.
JULIA: Okay, there we go. Well, next time you're having your heart weighed against the justice in order of the world, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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