The Lady of the Lake
/The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that Spirits Podcast has to of course do a Lady of the Lake episode as part of our Arthurian series!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of war, violence, drowning, religious persecution, death, blood, murder, violence against women, and decapitation.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And, Amanda, last time we were in this series, I had suggested the name, There's a Came-a-lot to Know About Arthurian Legends.
AMANDA: You did. And I think you shit rainbows and glitter, Julia. I think everything you make is amazing. And I think there was some opportunity to make that title even catchier for us and for ConSpiriters.
JULIA: Now, that is true, and I will say bless our ConSpiriters because we have gotten a lot of great recommendations for names, as well as someone recommending that we change the name of the series every episode, which might get confusing but is also extremely funny to me, personally.
AMANDA: There's always a tension between legibility and the bit, and that's where we live, frankly.
JULIA: I think we can, actually, find a happy medium here, which is we change the main name every episode, but then we always finish with :The Arthurian Series.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: So this week, I want to welcome you back, I guess? To Round Table Fables: The Arthurian Series.
AMANDA: Cute. I love a little rhyme. So sweet.
JULIA: Last we had left off in the series, we had gone over the Origins of King Arthur, both in a historical sense as well as his folkloric origins, which include, you might remember, his weird birth situation, a brief overview of his life, some battles, and eventual kind of sword of death, and then got into more of the details of the story of, for example, the Sword and the Stone.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And how Arthur kind of just pulled it out of there pretty much by accident, which also solidified his right to rule as the king. Amanda, are there any other highlights about Arthur's story that stuck with you?
AMANDA: I think you did a great job of laying the baseline for ideas and themes and characters that are going to come back, so I'm more, like, looking out for callbacks to that original focus. But, no, I think mostly the accidental, you know, running to bring his night daddy a sword and then he found one and then they were all like, "Oh, no, what'd you do, son?" That really stuck out to me.
JULIA: When to go get coffee accidentally became king is the real energy of that one, for sure.
AMANDA: Exactly. It's the natural growth of "I have accidentally become important at my job."
JULIA: Actually, truly, that's what it is. It's like Nepo baby, but no one knows who your daddy is. And then you become important at your job and you're like, "This was never supposed to happen. I was just supposed to collect a salary."
AMANDA: Exactly. Exactly. I think that's just how people got jobs at, like, record labels and the original media where, like, someone would be in an elevator and be like, "Would— do you need a light or whatever?" Because they smoked cigarettes constantly.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And then someone's like, "I like your moxie, kid. Come run the Esquire."
JULIA: That's it. And that's how Esquire was started.
AMANDA: Couldn't be me.
JULIA: All right. So at the end of the last episode, I hinted that we were going to be digging into some of the other foundational stories when it comes to King Arthur, following his pulling of the sword from the stone. This is like, in my mind, it's the early Arthur years. It's like the CW prequel to the TV show where Arthur is, like, a young, hot teen learning the responsibilities of adulthood.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: But also being king, which I guess is kind of what BBC's Merlin is about, but can you imagine what a, like, CW Riverdale-esque version of King Arthur's teen years would look like?
AMANDA: Julia, I got distracted as you were saying that because I just realized that the Yellowstone Cinematic Universe is the CW for boomers.
JULIA: Oh. and conservatives, yeah.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Yeah. Interesting.
AMANDA: You know what I mean?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like endless spinoffs. We have, like, the prequel, the sequel, the 150 years ago prequel. The guy who fucks off and works for the Marshalls, I think, is happening.
JULIA: I don't know.
AMANDA: It's that. Actually, that's rude to the CW. I take that back. Sorry.
JULIA: How dare you? CW is way more interesting. Not better, but interesting.
AMANDA: More original, I'd say.
JULIA: But, God, Riverdale, King Arthur, pretty fun.
AMANDA: Would slap.
JULIA: One of the things that you expressed some surprise about last episode, Amanda, was that the sword that Arthur pulled out of the stone is not necessarily his famous sword Excalibur.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: To be fair, in some versions of the tale, the sword is called Excalibur, but the sword that is pulled from the stone is not, like, the real magical sword Excalibur because that sword, again, in some versions, breaks in one of Arthur's battles.
AMANDA: Surprising. You don't think of Excalibur as being a thing that's fallible, but absolutely it is.
JULIA: When that happens, Merlin says, "Ah, you know what? I actually know a place where you can get a cool, newer magic sword." And that, in many cases, is where we see the introduction of the Lady of the Lake.
AMANDA: I love her.
JULIA: Yeah, there's just— hmm, Amanda, I think you're gonna love her even more after this episode, actually.
AMANDA: I'm so excited. Like, listen, just because one of my cultural touchstones growing up was Monty Python's Holy Grail and Lady of the Lake remains an iconic monologue in my family lore, I'm so excited to learn who this lady actually is.
JULIA: Hmm, I— I'm sure there will be several references to Holy Grail in this episode. We'll see. Before we get into the specifics, though, I should start by saying that when it comes to Welsh and Cornish folklore, which is, as we discussed in previous episodes, what helped to shape a lot of the Arthurian legend, these areas are littered with lake spirits and lake fairies, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, just based on the amount of water horses that we've discussed in our previous horse episode. This should not be surprising news to anyone.
AMANDA: No. British Isles are rolling fields, pretty temperate weather, and lots and lots of bodies of water that Irish children could wander into or spirits could dwell.
JULIA: And I mean, I think that's why there are so many lake and sort of freshwater water spirits in this area because not only can these bodies of water bring life, but they can also bring the threat of death. Sorry, drowning children. This is why we have these stories so that you don't go into the lake and you don't drown.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: But that's what makes people tell tales about them. And so we get a lot of spirits that come from this area that are associated with bodies of water such as lakes. As a result, it should be no surprise that the Lady of the Lake features prominently in Arthurian legend, as she was most likely inspired by one of these, like, already existing water spirits from the area.
AMANDA: And if this is so integral to English identity and the growing kind of project of the Britons with an O, it makes sense that they would bring into the fold a spirit representing the actual land and something that people are so familiar with.
JULIA: Absolutely. And I think that is why this is a myth that has endured for as long as it has, is because it is so tied to the history and the lands of Ireland and Scotland and Wales and England. So most interestingly, I think, Amanda, it seems like the Lady of the Lake is likely tied to this Romano-British goddess named Coventina.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: Now, as you might remember, we covered a little bit about the Roman occupation of the Britons with an O in the Arthur episode, as it was, like, kind of relevant to Arthurian legend as a whole. I'm not going to get into Roman history in general as much as I think people would like me to in this episode, but I wanted to, like, just touch on this because it is important. So what evidence we have about Coventina and her worship is unfortunately pretty scarce. The most notable evidence that we have is from a series of carvings that were found around a well spring in Northumberland near Hadrian's Wall. Again, shout out to the Hadrian's Wall girlies out there.
AMANDA: They are proliferate, Julia. And I must say, Northumberland, one of the funnest place names to say.
JULIA: Truly, it is. It's just one of those. You're just like, "Wow, there's so many letters there, but it comes out so smooth.
AMANDA: And reminds me of Ember and Umber from The Magicians, anybody.
JULIA: Ooh, yeah. Good point, good point. We know that there were dedications that were carved to Coventina on walled areas around a spring that was known as Coventina as well, as well as a bunch of, like, votive deposits, which specifically were deposits of coins. And when the site was originally excavated, they found that the votive deposits contained over 13,000 coins, that ranged from the rules of Mark Antony to Gratian. So starting around 44 BCE and then ending around 383 CE.
AMANDA: That is several centuries. That's amazing.
JULIA: It is, indeed. It is, indeed.
AMANDA: Silly question, does votive just mean like a devotional object? Like I think of a votive candle?
JULIA: Exactly. That's what it is. So votive in general is just like things that were left as offerings to a spirit or a god or, you know, someone you are worshiping as a whole.
AMANDA: So some people for many centuries were devoting money that could be useful in other ways to Coventina.
JULIA: So based on the archaeological excavation of the area, it is suggested that her worship ended very abruptly around 388 CE, most likely due to the anti-pagan worship legislation that was enacted by Theodosius I, who you might know as being the person who, like, established the Nicene Creed and is really, sort of, to blame for the persecution of non-Christian worship throughout the Roman Empire.
AMANDA: Is it safe to say, even though I'm no longer Catholic, Julia, I've always felt that Nicene Creed was kind of creepy?
JULIA: Hmm. All right. That's fair. That's fair.
AMANDA: I get it saying it personally, but in unison with a bunch of people who are not used to speaking out loud, I'm kind of like, "Oh, boy."
JULIA: Yeah, Theodosius, like, fought, like, two pretty intense wars to establish the Nicene Creed, so that also flavors it in an interesting way.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Or colors it in an interesting way, I'll say. What we do know based on these votive objects that were found in the area, and again, just the, like, sheer amount of coins found in that well area, is that she played an important role during her time, and that in the excavation of her altars, she is depicted as a sort of, like, prototypical Roman nymph, right? So she is partially clothed, she is associated with water. She is usually portrayed as reclining. Sometimes she is depicted with either two attendants who are also nymphs on either side of her, or like some scholars think maybe there was a triple goddess situation that was happening, but I think it's more likely that it is, like, Coventina and her two assistants.
AMANDA: I love also to have nymphs lounging around me.
JULIA: I mean, don't we all? Isn't that the dream?
AMANDA: That's kind of why I sit at the bar when I go to a bar. I don't do, like, a booth or a table most of the time.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Because I want them nymphs around me, you know?
JULIA: Yeah. And also, like, maybe you want to have a conversation with the bartender.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I'd rather talk to the bartender than a random person that comes up to hit on me. But that's just me as a non-single person. This is not a ton to go on, I will say. But the imagery really does lend itself to how the Lady of the Lake is later portrayed. So we can sort of potentially connect the two, or scholars have connected the two in the past. I feel like it's important for me to note before we go any further. I've been using Lady of the Lake to describe a singular figure. But as is often the case in Arthurian legend, there is more than one Lady of the Lake. It's more like a position or like a general title that is taken up by several women across Arthurian lore, depending on who the storyteller is and what story is being told.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So, like, for example, Malory, who we've— are going to be talking a lot in this episode in general, mentions two separate ladies of the lake in his writing. One, doesn't have a name, just uses the title Lady of the Lake. And then the other later on goes by Nenyve, so that's N-E-N-Y-V-E.
AMANDA: Very nymph-coded name.
JULIA: That is very nymph-coded. It's got a Y and an N in there, so I think that's just like nymph-coded.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: As we're sort of discussing the different, like, potential names for the Lady of the Lake, you might hear a couple of different theories about who she is, or like I said, there's various different versions that say her name is one thing and then the other version says her name is another thing. Just keep in mind that they're all sort of, like, this general title of Lady of the Lake, right?
AMANDA: Makes sense to me.
JULIA: She also is really interesting because she's a character that does not just show up for one story, but she shows up repeatedly. Two of the earliest references to the Lady of the Lake come from these two separate authors. One is a French writer and one is a German writer, but both of them were writing in the 12th century. So first is Chrétien de Troyes and the other is Ulrich von Zatzikhoven.
AMANDA: Listen, if a German person and a French person can agree on something relating to England, I am pretty, you know, pretty in favor of believing this as the truth.
JULIA: Neither of these writers specifically refer to her as the Lady of the Lake, but based on sort of the end result that we experience, what we know now will eventually become the Lady of the Lake, it is pretty obvious in hindsight that she is the figure that both of them are describing in their writing.
AMANDA: Okay. So what does she have in common?
JULIA: This is really interesting. Here, let me use the description from Chrétien's writing, which is specifically from his poem titled Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So this makes reference to Lancelot having a foster mother. Specifically, his foster mother is said to be a fairy who cared for him in his infancy and who bestowed on him a magical ring. Would you like to hear a actual line from the poem?
AMANDA: Yes, please.
JULIA: Obviously, this is translated from French. In reference to Lancelot, it says, "But he, of whom I have more to tell, wore upon his finger a ring whose stone was of such virtue that anyone who gazed at it was freed from the power of enchantment. Holding the ring before his eyes, he gazed at it and said, 'Lady, Lady, so help me God, now I have great need for your sucker.' This lady was a fairy who had given it to him and who had cared for him in his infancy. And he had great confidence that wherever he might go, she would aid and sucker him."
AMANDA: Wow. It is like— Julia, what is it called in Dungeons & Dragons when you have, like, the curse-breaking, like— I guess like a counterspell ring, like it breaks enchantment. That's amazing.
JULIA: A dispel magic if you would.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: That's very cool. That's very useful, especially for these kind of stories in Arthurian legend as well.
AMANDA: I'm also picking up on some maybe Christianization or syncretization happening here, where, like, the idea of breaking spells and curses is some pagan shit.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But he specifically says, "So help me, God." And he is calling out to a perhaps not birth mother like the Virgin Mary, but maybe a figure like that. Somebody who he can, you know, refer to and call on in these times of need.
JULIA: Yeah. And they specifically mentioned that she is a fairy, which I think is interesting to have that sort of LOL, It's Not Pagan, It's Fine thing. So she can be a spirit, but because she's a fairy. She doesn't at all fall into the levels of god or any of the saints or anything like that.
AMANDA: But she is acting virtuously, which is interesting for a figure like Arthur to be able to call out to God for help. And maybe the help that God provides does come through this pre-existing fairy lady.
JULIA: Obviously, later we're going to do a Lancelot episode and doing the comparison between Arthur and Lancelot, I think you're onto something. Keep that little nugget in your brain, Amanda.
AMANDA: Okay, okay.
JULIA: So this is really only a sort of passing reference and it doesn't really go into much more detail about Lancelot's childhood or how he was raised. However, this idea of him being raised by a foster mother who may or may not be the Lady of the Lake, it is. Is further established by Ulrich's medieval romance which is called Lanzelet, is German for Lancelot, in which Lancelot is described as being raised by the Queen of Maidenland.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Which is an otherworld magical location in which there are no other men besides Lancelot and the Queen's own son named Mabuz or Mabuz.
AMANDA: Sign me up for that. How can I go there?
JULIA: Uh-hmm. It's great. It also sometimes translates the description of this queen as being a "mermaid," as in she is a water spirit.
AMANDA: I'm even more interested now.
JULIA: And Maidenland is not only just a land of 10,000 women, Amanda, but also is said to be an enchanted realm beneath the sea where no one experiences sorrow.
AMANDA: Oh. I mean, that's a little bit repetitive when you just say it's filled with 10,000 women, but also very into that, how can I visit, like, Atlantis and the Amazonian women land and maybe this, too?
JULIA: I think a big part of this for me as well is, as a sea witch—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —this is the ideal situation, truly.
AMANDA: You can harvest kelp and seaweed by just, like, kind of reaching, you know, reaching up through the skylight.
JULIA: I would love that. Let me live, please.
AMANDA: Imagine all your neighbors, the weird fishes with interesting adaptations. That sounds great. I want this.
JULIA: So we will get more into these versions of the Lady of the Lake a lot more in our eventual Lancelot episode, but I mention these two examples because, like I said, they are the earliest incarnations of the Lady of the Lake. But it's not at this point that she is honed into the figure that would eventually be the person who gives Arthur the magical sword that he's famous for. These are just stories that sort of establish important and key parts of her character.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: For example, this really helps form her into this sort of otherworldly, again, fairy-like figure. She is not, Amanda, just a strange woman lying in a pond, distributing swords to establish a system of government. She is a figure that has enough supernatural power to provide some extraordinary backing to Arthur's claims as a king. By the way, Amanda, did you know that even Arthurian scholars love that line from that movie?
AMANDA: It's objectively just incredible writing. And so I am very glad— how do you know that they stan it?
JULIA: Well, in 2005, there is an Arthurian scholar named N.J. Higham who described the line as being "immortal."
AMANDA: Oh, amazing. Thank you, N.J. My favorite thing is slightly later in the scene when Arthur is talking to two peasants and he's like, "Well, I am Arthur, I am your king." And then one of the peasants goes, "I didn't vote for you." And—
JULIA: "We didn't vote for you."
AMANDA: — [19:17] vote for a king."
JULIA: The whole scene is fantastic. And he does, like, a piece of poetry where he's describing the way that the hand comes out of the lake.
AMANDA: Lifted forth from the bosom of the waters. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. And then that's when the line comes in of like, "Listen, strange women lying in ponds." Yeah. Incredible. So good. Such good writing.
AMANDA: If you are a young person, that is one thing your parents like that you will also probably like. You should watch Monty Python's Holy Grail.
JULIA: That is true. So, Our Lady of the Lake as time goes on continues to be portrayed as Lancelot's foster mother or mother figure. She takes him away from the lands of the mortals to be raised in her magical lands. Her connection to the lake, however, sort of deepens the more and more her story is told. It becomes established that the entrance to her land is either a lake or takes the appearance of a lake, like it could be a mirage of some kind.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: She is usually portrayed as being like benevolent and magical as established in the stories where she, like, raises Lancelot to be the perfect knight. But she's also sometimes portrayed as being a cunning sort of trickster woman as well. In some cases, like she's almost Circe style of— you know, Circe of the Odyssey, not Cersei from Game of Thrones.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: The sort of, like, witch who is mischievous and cunning and uses her magical abilities for evil.
AMANDA: I am seeing so many different overlaps, Julia, of the mother, maiden, crone triumvirate.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Like, we are having the mother and the maiden, we're having the mother and the crone. We're having a little bit of like sexy, but she might trick me, maiden, to crone. That's where I live.
JULIA: You're going maiden to crone. No mother, just maiden straight to crone.
AMANDA: Correct.
JULIA: Love that.
AMANDA: I'm like, "Oh, do you want to make out? And also, like, if later, you, like, help me with your herbal poultices, like that would be ideal. But also if you trick me, I kind of deserve it."
JULIA: I think that should be everyone's dating mentality.
AMANDA: Yeah, which dating app lets you select— like do you know the Enneagram sort of, like, polyhedron charts?
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: I want that, but for sapphic on the Mother Maiden crone Venn diagram. Because, frankly, that would help me filter out a lot of the people I don't want to be talking to.
JULIA: Damn, okay. So, cunning trickster version of Lady of the Lake. We somewhat covered this in our Merlin episode. Usually, this version of the Lady of the Lake is a woman whose name is like Nimue or Viviane, or some other form of those two names in various pronunciations and spellings. In those stories, she knows magic, but she learns more magic from Merlin and later manages to betray him and traps him in that, like, death-like state, as you might recall.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: But at the same time, she's also always portrayed as being an ally to Arthur. She's there to aid him in times of need and particularly she works with Merlin to give Arthur his new sword, Excalibur. So I think it's like a very interesting case study of being like, "Yeah, sometimes she's trickster-y, but when it counts, she is there to aid Arthur."
AMANDA: Very important lore, Arthur would not be Arthur without Excalibur.
JULIA: There is one other case to be made that some people believe that the Lady of the Lake and Morgan le Fay, who will get her own episode eventually, are either one in the same or at least occupy the same role.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But I'm going to save that for when we get to an actual Morgan le Fay episode.
AMANDA: Can't wait. Also, Morgan on my list of hottest names, so I'm very excited to— Morgans of all genders, by the way. I'm excited to see what happens here.
JULIA: Except for J.P. Morgan.
AMANDA: No! James Pierpont? Couldn't be less sexy.
JULIA: I hate a man who has a first and last name where they could just both be first names.
AMANDA: I know. And his specifically is like first, last, first. It's like, "Come on, James. Okay, you're one of our first billionaires. You can live with just one first name."
JULIA: "You can pay for a better name, James."
AMANDA: "And some more libraries while you're at it, please."
JULIA: So now that we know more about who she is, or rather the different versions of the title that have been held, Amanda, I want to get to some of the important and foundational stories about the Lady of the Lake, or rather the Ladies of the Lake. But we will get to that just as soon as we grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's go.
[theme]
AMANDA: Hey, everybody, it's Amanda, and welcome to the refill. As you know, we are donating our ad space for the foreseeable future to small businesses and mutual aid efforts in Minneapolis that benefit immigrants, protesters, and activists. If you are a podcaster and want to join us in this effort, you can go to bit.ly/, M-N, podcastads, all lowercase, to join us. We are this week shining our spotlight on Curry Corner. A business that has been closed since late January due to safety concerns for their staff, but which has nonetheless been feeding protesters, neighbors, and helpers all for free. They have a GoFundMe set up right now to help with their staff and overhead costs while they have to be closed. And they're actually just $770 US away from their goal. Curry Corner is amazing. They are asking for your support, understanding, solidarity. They're a small, family-owned business, and also delicious and a great staple of their neighborhood. So if you are able to help Curry Corner, pay their staff, cover their bills, and get through this occupation of Minneapolis, you can go to gofundme.com and search for Curry Corner or contribute at the link in the description. Thank you as well to everybody who has decided to support Spirits financially. It is really helpful and we would not be in our 10th year as a podcast without you. Our newest patron is named Phil Kelch. [25:10] Thank you so much, Phil. Your name is very satisfying to say. And thank you as well as our supporting producer-level patrons whose support means the absolute world, Uhleeseeuh, Hannah, Scott, Anne, Matthew, Lily, and Wil. And our legend-level patrons, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Audra, Sarah, Bea Me Up Scotty, Morgan, Bex, Rikoelike, Chibi Yokai, and Michael. All of that and more where you get ad-free episodes, recipe cards for every ep, director's commentary, and more and more and more at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Multitude is the podcast collective we are a part of. Our whole point is to do podcasting with purpose, teaching you, entertaining you, keeping you company. And American Medieval is our newest sister show in the collective. This is a podcast about the Middle Ages, but with an American twist. Every week, Professor Matthew Gabriel is joined by an expert scholar to talk about either some bit of the medieval world or how Americans have throughout our history used the Middle Ages to say something about ourselves, to justify our conquests, and overall to build this myth of nationalism that is really worth tearing down. You can go check out everything that you haven't been taught about the Middle Ages and also, as always, tie history to the present and future at americanmedieval.com.
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[theme]
JULIA: We are back. And, Amanda, there is, in fact, a Lady of the Lake cocktail.
AMANDA: No way. If I saw that on a menu, I would just order it sight unseen.
JULIA: It was originally created by the team over at the now long defunct Mary Queen of Scots bar.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Which I don't know if you remember this or— honestly, we probably don't because it was 2010 when it opened.
AMANDA: We couldn't drink legally until 2013.
JULIA: Exactly. So it had a lot of press when it first opened and then it, like, closed 18 months later, so it was—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —one of those stories— you know, New York City is a tough place to have a cocktail bar, I'll say that much. Especially before the real, like, you know, craft cocktail revolution that was happening.
AMANDA: It's giving a hospitality group tried really hard, had PR connections, but it didn't quite work.
JULIA: Somehow this cocktail recipe still managed to survive the closure, and it features a really interesting base spirit, which is heather-flower-infused vodka.
AMANDA: Whoa. One, didn't know that heather flowered.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And two, that's amazing.
JULIA: Yeah, Heather flowers are actually really pretty. They're sort of like lilac-y or lavender-y in color.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And, like, small, little bundles like lavender and lilac.
AMANDA: I am starting my seeds this weekend, Julia, for my garden. And I am now thinking about, what can I grow that you and I can infuse into spirits?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Because I think it'd be really fun.
JULIA: Amanda, that's a great idea.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Now, Heather Flowers, in general, not the easiest ingredient to find. You can find some Heather teas on the internet if you, like, really want to go gung-ho on this.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: And it is like a bit of an annoying recipe because you have to infuse the vodka yourself and also find lavender bitters, which you can probably order online unless you have, like, a really fun craft liquor store by you that might have lavender bitters. But—
AMANDA: Listen, I love smelling my lavender, but I don't love cooking with it. So—
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: —if, you know, later on in the season, we want to make some bitters out of the lavender I'm growing, we can do that, too.
JULIA: Excellent. Well, that's the really interesting thing, Amanda, because the result of this cocktail is sort of a really great scented drink. And then you take, like— the first thing that hits you is the smell of the drink. And then you take a sip and it's really like nice. It's light. It's refreshing. And it's one of those ones where I'm like, "Ah, thank God it, like, tastes as good as it smells." Right?
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: You really get these sort of really layered, beautiful, complex flavors and scents, so I really like that. If you don't want to go out of your way finding Heather flower tea, you could probably get away with, like, Earl Grey tea-infused vodka.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But if you're feeling adventurous, the full recipe is going to be in the recipe cards for this episode, so check it out and, you know, go nuts.
AMANDA: I love it. As always, tag us on social if you make any of these cocktails. We'd love to see it.
JULIA: I would, indeed. Now, let's get to those Lady of the Lake stories. I think we should probably start with the one that I have really been sort of teasing the most here and the one that is probably the most well-known of all of her tales, which is the Lady of the Lake and the Offering of the Sword Excalibur to Arthur.
AMANDA: Let's do it. Excalibur's origin story. Excalibur is like, "Mummy, how was I born?"
JULIA: "How was I born, mummy? How did I get thrust into that lake, mama?" This mainly comes from Thomas Malory and, like, just as a brief aside, his 15th century compilation of Arthurian stories is pretty much considered, like, the definitive version around the world. Obviously, there are a bunch of tellings both pre and post Malory, but the Malory ones are kind of, like, what most of the post stories based their stories off of. So he's— he is the foundation.
AMANDA: Got it. It’s the err text.
JULIA: Yes, exactly. You know, like if you have a collection of Arthurian stories that you read as a kid, chances are it's an adaptation of Malory's writing.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: So in his stories, she, as I mentioned before, remains unnamed besides this title of Lady of the Lake. Now, this one sort of leaves off where we left off in our Arthur episode, in our Arthur story in which Arthur was fighting those early battles to solidify his legitimacy, to rule among the lords who didn't really want to accept his reign. Remember he was, like, 15 at the time and people were like, "Nah. I don't think so."
AMANDA: "I think, instead, I should be king and, uh, sorry, my back hurts but this child who produced a sword doesn't necessarily mean that he should be the king."
JULIA: Exactly. So one sword and now he's our king, sounds like bullshit to me.
AMANDA: What's next? Slippery slope? Elected government? No.
JULIA: So he's fighting these early battles, but he's also trying to get allies on his side around the same time. And up until this point, he's been using the original sword from the stone, because, again, this is like really his sort of symbol of his right to rule. It's his legitimacy of his claim, right?
AMANDA: Listen, Julia, one time I found a Leatherman buried in the sand in Manhattan Beach in California. And it's not my best multi-tool Leatherman. But it's the one I love the most because it found me. I felt chosen by that Leatherman.
JULIA: I think you are queen of Manhattan Beach now.
AMANDA: Oh, thank you.
JULIA: I mean, I don't get to decide that, but it seems like it to me.
AMANDA: Well, if anyone wants to just leave some votive offerings, go ahead, bury it real good, and then just let me know how to find them.
JULIA: It's during this period that Arthur meets a guy named King Pellinore, who would eventually go on to become, like, a very important figure in Arthurian legend. We'll get to it eventually. And Arthur, like I said, he's trying to find allies and he wants to recruit Pellinore, but the other king is like, "Okay, but I'm going to challenge you to a series of duels in order to prove yourself." First up is jousting, and they do three jousts. I'm not sure if by three jousts, it's like three full rounds of jousting. Like, I'm watching a lot of curling right now because of the Olympics.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: You know, you have 10 ends per game and then that's a full game, right? And so I don't know if this is a situation where it's like, you know, three lances or if it was three full jousts.
AMANDA: Do the horsies run three times or more than three times?
JULIA: Right, exactly, exactly. You understand what I'm saying.
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: What we do know is that Pellinore defeats Arthur in the third joust, on the third lance. Not sure. And then after that, he challenges Arthur to a battle of the swords, a sword fight as you would, in which Pellinore's superior skill actually breaks the sword from the stone.
AMANDA: Really? I—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: I don't know why, but I'm a little bit scandalized and shocked that we have a story of a future King of the Britons losing twice.
JULIA: Yes. Well, you have to remember it's his early days. Remember the CW show, Amanda.
AMANDA: Yeah. You're— okay. Yeah, yeah. No, no, you're right. This is like a good mid-season one, sort of like, "What will happen now?" And then he's redeemed somehow.
JULIA: Exactly. So at this point, the sword breaks and Merlin is forced to step in and throw an enchantment over Pellinore, basically to save Arthur's life.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Because Pellinore was ready to be like, "Man, you're gonna die. You challenged me to a—" or rather, "I challenge you to a duel." But, like, you know, that's how it works in the field of honor.
AMANDA: That is so embarrassing in the CW show that his daddy or his uncle had to come break up the fight because it was getting too real.
JULIA: Teacher daddy had to come in and—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —say, "No, no, don't kill my student."
AMANDA: I do want to let you know, Julia, that whichever Sprouse was in Riverdale is the sort of image I have of young Arthur in my mind, in this Riverdale-esque show.
JULIA: Pellinore is enchanted, stops right before he can kill Arthur, but Arthur's like, "Hey man, great skills, you really bested me. Awesome job." And they become allies, they become friends.
AMANDA: Oh. He was a good loser.
JULIA: Yeah. And so Pellinore becomes one of the first allies to Arthur in his early wars against these rebelling vassals, right? And also becomes one of the earliest members of the Round Table, what would eventually become the Round Table.
AMANDA: Cute.
JULIA: However, this leaves Arthur without a sword or at least a meaningful sword, you know what I mean? And so Merlin—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —takes him to the lake in which the Lady of the Lake resides. Now, when they arrive, a young Arthur sees an arm extending from the surface of the water, holding aloft a sword. At this point, Merlin identifies to Arthur that the arm, in fact, belongs to the Lady of the Lake or in some versions, one of her servants, as in, like, the Lady of the Lake is the chief Lady of the Lake and then there are others that sort of operate underneath her, it's a little confusing.
AMANDA: You send your interns to do the errands, that's fine.
JULIA: So Arthur requests a sword from the Lady of the Lake, presumably this one is like on shore and then there's, you know, the assistant in the water holding the sword aloft, right?
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: And he is granted permission by her to go out onto the lake in a boat so long as he promises to owe her a boon. Essentially, any request that she might ask of him at a later date.
AMANDA: So, Julia, what is the context of this here? Because we've talked all kinds of times about how owing a favor to a fairy is not a situation anybody ever wants to be in. But a boon is different. A boon has some, you know, some structure in the sort of knight era.
JULIA: In this case, boon and favor are pretty much used interchangeably.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And the— you bring up a great point, which is also— boons always come back to haunt the people who make a pact with a boon that is not immediate, right? When you say—
AMANDA: More like a Boon-a-rang, am I right?
JULIA: Ooh. An AI could never say that.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: So what I think is really interesting is that, like, first off, no one ever forgets that they owe a boon/or— well, rather, people often forget that they owe a boon, but the person who the boon is owed to, never forgets.
AMANDA: The boon holder is not, like, forgetting that until 40 years later, they wake up, sit up in bed like, "The boon."
JULIA: And then also like— that's the thing is whenever someone's like, "You will owe me a favor in the future." I'm like, "Already bad."
AMANDA: Nope.
JULIA: "Never wait for that. Don't agree to that until you know exactly what the boon is for, you know?"
AMANDA: Uh-uh.
JULIA: Arthur agrees. Boon unseen. And so takes out a boat and claims Excalibur from the lake.
AMANDA: Huge.
JULIA: Now, Malory's version of Excalibur is probably the most well-known and popularized version of Excalibur. Excalibur is a powerful and effective sword to be sure, but Malory portrays it as being miraculously powerful.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: It also has a certain, like, subtle magic to it, which is, for example, it shines an incredibly bright light that when Arthur is in battle can disorient his opponents and, like, just at the right moment give the king an opening, right?
AMANDA: That is incredibly useful in a world where the brightest light you can see apart from the sun is, like, a torch.
JULIA: Hey, I'm just saying, higher level D&D campaigns, there's an idea for you.
AMANDA: Yeah, right? Damn.
JULIA: But Malory also makes a really interesting special mention of the scabbard that holds Excalibur.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: In fact, if you were to believe Malory, the scabbard is actually more important than the sword itself.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Yes. So how it goes is according to Merlin in Malory's tellings, the scabbard has the ability to miraculously protect the wearer from harm so that any cuts received while wearing the scabbard would not bleed.
AMANDA: Wow. Very important.
JULIA: Let's say, Arthur wears the scabbard into battle, no matter how much he may be cut, he's never going to bleed to death in the middle of a battle. This, course, is not complete invulnerability or immunity to harm. You know, you can still get decapitated and stuff like that. The cuts still happen. They just don't bleed.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: This is a huge advantage in any battle that Arthur might find himself in.
AMANDA: That's amazing.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: When you see that your leader doesn't bleed, like there is a real mystical reputation-building, theatrical aspect to that.
JULIA: Absolutely. And, like, it's the idea of like, you know, certain stories where a captain would wear red into battle so that no one could see him bleed, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: It's very interesting. Very interesting. The only problem is there were other people besides Merlin and Arthur who knew about the scabbard's power. And according to Malory, it is Morgan le Fay, Arthur's half-sister, who steals the scabbard and then throws it into a deep lake.
AMANDA: Well, that's not what we meant by reduce, reuse, recycle. Come on.
JULIA: No, it is not. This, mischievous move allows Arthur to be killed during the Battle of Camlann, which is something I am sure that we're going to be talking about in a future episode, despite the fact that he is still wielding Excalibur in that battle.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: You need both. Can't just have the sword. You got to have the scabbard, too.
AMANDA: In offense and defense. There's something really interesting to say about masculinity here and I wonder if any listeners are resonating with that.
JULIA: I think it's also really interesting because it's like the importance of keeping your sword well-maintained and, like, you know—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —well-protected in the scabbard. You need both.
AMANDA: Yeah, you do.
JULIA: Now, this story rolls really nicely into the story of what exactly the boon is that the Lady of the Lake asks of Arthur. And this involves a knight called Sir Balin, also known as Balin the Savage and the Knight with Two Swords.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: You're gonna hate this guy.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: So sometime later, after Arthur has gotten Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake, he has established himself as king. He has created his court at Camelot. So in some stories, the Round Table exists. In other stories, they're like, "Balin was never part of the Round Table." So all this happened before the Round Table existed. So the Lady of the Lake comes to him, accompanied by one of her ladymates. Now, interestingly, in the original translation, they use the term damsel to describe her. And I was like, "Well, I've only ever heard damsel in distress, so I don't know what the actual definition of damsel is." But by definition, damsel is a maiden or an unmarried woman of noble or gentle birth. Fun fact for you.
AMANDA: Okay, a lady. A small L, lady.
JULIA: An important bit for Sir Balin's story and what we're about to get into, because I could just tell you what the Lady of the Lake wanted, but this is important. This damsel that is accompanying the Lady of the Lake has a sword of her own.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And she's carrying it in a scabbard and she claims that it can only be drawn by a truly virtuous knight.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So a bunch of the knights of King Arthur's court and even King Arthur himself attempt to draw the sword, but cannot.
AMANDA: Really? I wonder what the environment was like when King Arthur did not successfully pull out that sword.
JULIA: Awkward.
AMANDA: Awkward.
JULIA: And then, Balin tries, and he manages to draw the sword.
AMANDA: So that means he's a great guy, right?
JULIA: Yeah, it means he's a totally great guy. And then as he draws the sword, absolutely gloating about it. Like, "Look at me, I did that. I'm better than all of you. Go fuck yourselves."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And then he claims the sword as his own, so he refuses to return it to the maiden.
AMANDA: Um, not quite how it works.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. And she goes, "Hey, buddy, I'm gonna warn you right now. If you don't return the sword to me, you're gonna suffer for it."
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: And she specifically claims that the sword will lead to him killing his greatest friend, the person that he loves the most, and it will cause his own destruction.
AMANDA: Oh. This is some witch's curse in the Scottish play type situation here.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. So this all happens, the maiden leaves, the damsel leaves, and then the Lady of the Lake makes her demand, which is the head of Sir Balin.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Sir Balin, she claims, is responsible for her brother's death and his head will be the promised payment for bestowing Excalibur upon Arthur.
AMANDA: Okay. I mean, listen, Arthur gets an excuse to kill a guy that sounds like nobody really liked. That's all right.
JULIA: Well, Arthur, Amanda, remember, very virtuous man.
AMANDA: You're right. Fuck. I forgot.
JULIA: Does right by his people, right?
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: And so Arthur refuses the request.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: And at this point, Sir Balin jumps in and claims that, "By enchantment and sorcery, she has been the destroyer of many good knights." And then yells, "You wanted my head, so I shall take yours." And he grabs his sword, which is the sword he just stole from the damsel, I should mention.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And decapitates the Lady of the Lake.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Oh, shit, indeed. Amanda is just staring at me like—
AMANDA: I'm pretty astonished. No, like I— I'm like, "Oh, he had the two swords, right. The one he came in with and the one he ruined everyone's life with."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
JULIA: By the way, does this in front of Arthur and the entire court. And then calls for his squire and sends the squire off with the severed head. So we're desecrating the body while we're at it.
AMANDA: Yeah. Also not— I'm just imagining how squire was, "Not a fun job, I'm sure."
JULIA: No. No, no, no. So this puts Arthur in a really fucked up spot because as king, the Lady of the Lake should have been under his protection. And not only that, he also had offered her whatever boon she demanded and then reneged on that promise.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So to try to make up for that, in my opinion, a little late, my guy, he orders a very, like, rich and elaborate burial for the lady and also banishes Balin, even though Merlin's like, "Well, you know, if you let Balin stay, he is going to be your greatest knight." And Arthur's like, "I can't do that. That's not right. I have to send him away."
AMANDA: That is a tough decision.
JULIA: Later on, he also then gives permission to a prince named Launceor, who's another one of his knights, to go after Balin and avenge this disgrace by killing him. However, Balin ends up killing Launceor instead. A bunch of terrible stuff happens to Balin after that. It's not super important to our story. The basic understanding is, fuck that guy.
AMANDA: He sounds like an absolute menace. Does the damsel ever get her sword back?
JULIA: The damsel does not get her sword back, but we do find out later that this was all a ploy to kill Balin because she was pissed at him, that he was somewhat related to the killing of her lover.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And so she's trying to get revenge against him.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: So the Lady of the Lake, whether or not she is the one beheaded by Sir Balin or whoever is next to inherit the title depends on which version of story we're telling, does often reappear at the end or the latter half of Arthur's story.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So in some legends, Arthur is gravely injured in a battle and is taken to the island of Avalon by the Lady of the Lake to heal and recover his strength. So Avalon is a common location in the later Arthurian legends. Essentially, it is the island in the center of the lake where the Lady of the Lake resides.
AMANDA: Oh, cute.
JULIA: It's like kind of somewhat an evolution of the Maidenland that we get the Queen of the Maidenland who helped raise Lancelot.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: That's how I'm picturing it. It is a mythical land of eternal spring. I love when places are an eternal particular season. One of my favorite things.
AMANDA: Me, too.
JULIA: And it is known for its healing properties, so it makes sense to bring Arthur there so that he can heal. It is also said that Avalon is where the sword Excalibur was forged in the first place, so it's got even more important lore attached to it.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. This is like the— sort of Valhalla type shit.
JULIA: Avalon is also important because it is said to be Arthur's final resting place. When he is killed in his fight with Mordred, Arthur's body is escorted back to Avalon on a mystical boat alongside the Lady of the Lake and her two companions. Not the girlie with the cursed sword this time, though.
AMANDA: Yeah. I bet— I hope that woman was okay, but sounds like she caused a lot of havoc with her tricks.
JULIA: So Malory builds this out a little bit in his version of the tale, too. So, like, the Lady of the Lake who gave Arthur the sword, as I mentioned very early in the episode, was unnamed. And that's the one that's beheaded by Sir Balin.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: After her death, the sorceress, Nenyve, who I also mentioned earlier, becomes the next person to hold the mantle of Lady of the Lake, and she is the one that is said to escort Arthur's body to be laid to rest in Avalon.
AMANDA: The Lady of the Lake is beheaded. Long live the Lady of the Lake.
JULIA: Now, with this story of Arthur being laid to rest by the Lady of the Lake, you might also be kind of wondering, "Well, what happened to Excalibur, the sword he was given, you know?"
AMANDA: She's hurt at some point, I wanna know why.
JULIA: So, great question. I mentioned earlier that Arthur wielded Excalibur in his final battle. So in some versions of the tale, he is grievously injured and so he tells one of his surviving knights, it's either a guy named Griflet or it's sometimes Bedivere who is his like cupbearer character.
AMANDA: Griflet. Let's get back to that.
JULIA: Yeah, I love Griflet. So he tells either one of those, depends on the story, to cast Excalibur into a nearby lake.
AMANDA: Return it to the lady.
Julia : Exactly, exactly. So whichever knight it is, interestingly, tries to deceive Arthur. So he's like, "I don't think that this great sword should be thrown away. Like, I'll tell him I threw the sword in, but it was actually someone else's sword or whatever."
AMANDA: Oh, man, I'm surprised by the amount of deceit in these, like, pure-hearted nights.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. So he tries to do that two times. By the end, Arthur's like, "I know you didn't throw it in." And so he reluctantly tosses it back into the lake. And as he does so, a woman's hand emerges from the lake to catch Excalibur and then pulls it back beneath the lake with her.
AMANDA: Into the bosom of the water.
JULIA: Into the bosom of the water, exactly. Now, there are some tales in which the sword is gifted to Gawain instead in the wake of Arthur's death, but those are not nearly as popular as the tossing the sword back into the lake story.
AMANDA: I mean, it's a great image. And, you know, from where we all come, to which we'll all return, the bosom of a lady in the water.
JULIA: Now it is a great image and it's such a great image that Tennyson wrote a lovely poem about this portion.
AMANDA: It's your boy Tennyson got on it.
JULIA: Would you like to hear a little bit?
AMANDA: Please.
JULIA: All right. "Then spake King Arthur to Sir Bedivere." See, he goes with Bedivere for this one.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "The sequel of today unsolders all the goodliest fellowship of famous knights. Whereof this world holds record. Such asleep they sleep, the men I loved. I think that we shall never more at any future time delight our souls with talk of nightly deeds, walking about the gardens and the halls of Camelot as in the days that were. I perish by this people which I made, though Merlin swear that I should come again to rule once more. But let what will be be. I am so deeply smitten through the helm that without help I shall not last 'til morn. Thou, therefore, take my brand Excalibur, which was my pride, for thou rememberest how in those old days, one summer noon, an arm rose up from out the bosom of the lake, loathed in white samite, mystical, wonderful, holding the sword, and how I rode across and took it, and have worn it like a king. And wheresoever I am sung or told, and after time this also shall be known, but now delay not. Take Excalibur and fling him far into the middle mirror. Watch what thou seest and lightly bring me word."
AMANDA: Hmm. And, Julia, that's how you know that everyone in Monty Python went to Oxbridge.
JULIA: Everyone said I read all that Tennyson, baby.
AMANDA: Yeah, remember that weird word, samite? Let's throw that in there. Ugh! I love it.
JULIA: So, Amanda, all in all, the Lady of the Lake, in whatever form she may take, plays a super important role in the story of King Arthur and has been adapted and portrayed in many books and many movies. But she is not the only woman that is important to these tales, as much as Geoffrey Monmouth would love for us to not talk about any other women at all.
AMANDA: Jeffrey!
JULIA: Jeffrey! So, next episode, we will be touching on another very important lady, or rather, a very important queen.
AMANDA: Let's go. I can't wait.
JULIA: Thanks, Amanda, for indulging me in another Arthurian legend. And remember, listeners, when you see a hand emerge, glistening from the water, grasping a sword, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JULIA: Later, Satyrs.
[theme]