Jack Frost & Winter Spirits
/Do you feel the cold weather nipping at your nose? What’s up with that? Is it Jack Frost, like a lot of the stories and songs say? Or is it another embodiment of winter, like Frau Hole, Boreas, or Morozko? You’ll have to bundle up in your coziest blanket and listen to this episode to find out!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, car accidents, war, child endangerment, child death, gore, abusive familial relationships, blood and kidnapping.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And Amanda, you are probably familiar with the song, "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "Jack Frost nipping at your nose." Now, Amanda, who is this man?
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Why is he being so intimate with me?
AMANDA: That's a great question, Julia. I imagine a sort of like, you know, like adult to an infant leaning down and being like, "Boop, boop. Got your nose."
JULIA: Ooh, I don't like him as an infant. That scares me for some reason.
AMANDA: No, he's the adult, we're the infant.
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: And I am picturing an anthropomorphic snowman, and I don't know where that comes from.
JULIA: I'm almost certain I can tell you where that comes from, Amanda, and it's that— in 1998, there was a family comedy movie starring Michael Keaton in which he is a sort of, like, absent father who dies in a car crash during a snowstorm and then is reincarnated as a snowman.
AMANDA: What bills did Michael Keaton have in the mid-90s that led to this catastrophe?
JULIA: There's no good reason. He was Batman only a few years before this.
AMANDA: That's a great point. Damn!
JULIA: Okay, that's probably why you're picturing an anthropomorphic snowman.
AMANDA: But yes, that's all I got. I don't know why he's in my house. I don't know why he's fascinated with my nose and I would love to know more.
JULIA: Yes. So if you are listening to this episode, you almost certainly have heard the name Jack Frost, and I'm sure there is a variety of different images that are popping into your head when you hear that name. For Amanda, it's an anthropomorphic snowman. For a lot of Tumblr folks, I'm sure you're thinking of that horny version from Rise of the Guardians, don't even play with me. But it's a character that has become a bit of an icon for the winter season, from the Rankin Bass TV specials, to Martin Short in wild makeup during the Santa Claus 3. He has appeared in comics, in novels, even horror movies— which I just said there's a 1998 movie called Jack Frost. There's also a 1997 movie called Jack Frost.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: Which is wild because it's a horror movie. It's about a serial killer who gets turned into a snowman and just keeps killing people as a snowman.
AMANDA: I— there's a lot here, Julia. I'm excited to get into it.
JULIA: But, Amanda, where, as we always ask, did this personification of the freezing cold come from? And almost as it always is with Spirits, it's something of a twofold question, right? So Jack Frost, the incarnation that we think of nowadays, seems to have been first mentioned in 1734 from an English book called Round About Our Coal Fire, or Christmas Entertainments.
AMANDA: Okay, that fully sounds like an SNL parody of a old-timey BBC radio program.
JULIA: Amanda, I found this online, this book, and had to read it, and it was like old enough that the scans have— you know when they kind of turn the S's into F's—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —in old printing?
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: It was that old where the S's were turned into F's. So specifically, the quote, from this book that mentions Jack Frost, is, "This Time of Year—" and I have to specify when you're reading this, it's like capital T, capital T, lowercase O, capital Y for year. So, "This Time of Year, being cold and frosty, generally speaking, or when Jack Frost commonly takes us by the nose, the diversions are within doors, either in exercise or by the fireside."
AMANDA: Okay, makes sense as a framing for a book about stories to tell around the hearth.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But I mean, I guess apart from just your nose being one of the first things to get cold when it's cold.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Why is he nipping at my nose?
JULIA: That's a good question, Amanda. And I think you kind of have nailed it in terms of, like, why they refer to the nipping at the nose or nipping at your fingers. That is definitely, like, where you feel the cold first when you're feeling cold, right? Also, this book is wild. It is basically like an entire treatise on how people of the time would spend their winters, which I guess is interesting, but not super relevant to what we're going to be talking about today. But I think it is interesting because it is our first, as far as I could find, reference to Jack Frost being written down. But apparently, it was a well-known enough figure for this book to reference it without any further explanation, which means that the idea of Jack Frost, the character of Jack Frost, was well-known enough in the—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —canon of at least English literature and English society to be mentioned in that way.
AMANDA: Makes sense also that Jack is such a kind of go-to name of like, "Oh, yeah, like, you know, Mr. Anyone." Like that is kind of a— just a go-to for some name describing some man and some incarnation of a subject.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. I mean, we just talked about the Jack-o'-lantern recently in an episode, right? And the idea of, like, Jack as this stock character, as a sort of, like, essentially shorthand for, like, lad is something we see often in English folklore.
AMANDA: Okay. If anyone is dressing up for the winter solstice this year, consider frost lad.
JULIA: Frost lad. Oh, Amanda, we'll get to people dressing up as Jack Frost in a little bit. Hold on.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: You always guess my stuff before I get to it. I love it. So what I think is really interesting, too, is in certain adaptations of the Jack Frost terminology, story, definition, he is basically the person that leaves those sort of, like, frosty, fern-like patterns on windows on cold mornings. You know what I'm talking about? Like when you see frost on a window and it has kind of spread out in almost plant-like shape.
AMANDA: Beautiful. It's almost like a snowflake when you zoom in on a microscope.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. And actually, I was reading into this a little bit too, where like that is not as common on windows nowadays because now we do double pane windows instead of single pane windows.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Fun fact. So there's less of the evidence that Jack Frost has visited on windows nowadays than they are used to.
AMANDA: Maybe we all just collectively got better at anticipating the got your nose of it all.
JULIA: Yes. And as you pointed out Amanda, the got your nose of it all, the nipping at our extremities is sort of the sign of Jack Frost visiting. But despite the mention that we get round about our coal fire or Christmas entertainments, it really feels like Jack Frost was a household name, right? But then after this, he sort of all but disappears from literary references until— do you want to guess when Jack Frost makes an appearance again?
AMANDA: Like most things, I'm just going to guess after World War II.
JULIA: Not quite. It's the other thing in English literature, which is the Victorian era.
AMANDA: The Victorians, looking back at the past and saying, "Wouldn't it better?"
JULIA: Wasn't it better? Yeah, exactly. So suddenly, he is back in the spotlight during the Victorian era. So he is mentioned— this is not in chronological order but just order of what I think is interesting. So he's mentioned in a 1873 children's book by author Margaret Canby called Birdie and his Fairy Friends, and he is specifically mentioned in a short story within that called The Frost Fairies, where Jack Frost is considered the king of the winter spirits.
AMANDA: Adorable.
JULIA: Would you like to hear a little section from that book?
AMANDA: Julia, you know that I'm going to see Wicked tonight. Of course I do!
JULIA: Hell yeah. Okay. "King Frost, or Jack Frost as he is sometimes called, lives in a cold country far to the north. But every year, he takes a journey over the world in a car of golden clouds drawn by a strong and rapid steed called North Wind. Wherever he goes, he does many wonderful things. He builds bridges over every stream, clear as glass in appearance, but often strong as iron. He puts the flowers and plants to sleep by one touch of his hand, and they all bow down and sink into the warm earth until spring returns. Then, lest we should grieve for the flowers, he places at our windows lovely wreaths and sprays his white northern flowers or delicate little forests of fairy pine trees, pure white and very beautiful," like referring to the frost on our windows.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: "But his most wonderful work is the painting of the trees, which look, after his task is done, as if they were covered with the brightest layers of gold and rubies, and are beautiful enough to comfort us for the flight of summer."
AMANDA: Gorgeous! Man, who wrote this?
JULIA: This was Margaret Canby. There you go.
AMANDA: Beautiful. What a poet.
JULIA: I also really like this addition that Margaret mentions here where it's not only just him being frost and cold wintertime, but also he's the one that helps bring on the autumn colors as the cold begins. Isn't that beautiful?
AMANDA: So cute.
JULIA: So pretty. I love it so much. All right. I have one more reference for you here, Amanda. This is from 1875 where he was memorialized in a poem by Charles Sangster called Little Jack Frost. And Amanda, it's been a minute since we've had a Poetry Corner, so I wanted to provide for you.
AMANDA: I love a Poetry Corner, Julia. I'm inviting you in. This sort of imagery is making me think of our Poetry Corner this time as like a— one of those little bump out like window seats that's shaped like a U.
JULIA: Hmm. My dream.
AMANDA: Where it is all— exactly. It's like corduroy or velvet, like some cozy fabric. We've got some blankets. There's maybe a cat in the corner and we can snuggle up under like a big knit blanket.
JULIA: That is my absolute dream. I just want a window seat reading nook. It's my goal in life, really.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: All right, here is the poem called Little Jack Frost. "Little Jack Frost went up the hill, watching the stars and the moon so still, watching the stars and the moon so bright and laughing aloud with all of his might. Little Jack Frost ran down the hill late in the night when the winds were still, late in the fall when the leaves fell down, red and yellow and faded brown. Little Jack Frost walked through the trees, 'Ah,' sighed the flowers, 'We freeze, we freeze.' 'Ah,' sighed the grasses, 'We die, we die.' Said Little Jack Frost, 'Goodbye, goodbye.' Little Jack Frost tripped round and round, spreading much snow on the frozen ground, nipping the breezes, icing the streams, chilling the warmth on the sun's bright beams. But when Dame Nature brought back the spring, brought back the birds that chirp and sing, melted the snow and warmed the sky, Little Jack Frost went pouting by. The flowers opened their eyes of blue, green buds peeped out, and grasses grew. It was so warm and scorched him so, Little Jack Frost was glad to go."
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Pretty cute.
AMANDA: Mischievous.
JULIA: We don't often get lot of rhyming poems here in Poetry Corner, but hey!
AMANDA: Is this how people feel about dancing, who aren't me? Where like your body just like moves to a rhythm? I just— I love, I love a rhyming poem, Julia. And I'm gonna say it, I think I should have been made to memorize more poetry in my schooling.
JULIA: I think we all should have. That should have been just part of our education, honestly.
AMANDA: Used to be.
JULIA: Used to be. Just like cursive, but they brought that back.
AMANDA: That's good.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: As someone with, like, hand problems, it helps me to write in cursive, so I appreciate it.
JULIA: Jake feels the same way. He's like, "It's so much easier and I get more down when I'm writing in cursive." I'm like, "Fair enough."
AMANDA: What a Renaissance man.
JULIA: He really is. So, Amanda, even Frank L. Baum, who is the author of The Wizard of Oz, as you might know.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Got in on the action with his portrayal of Jack Frost in a short story called The Runaway Shadows, or A Trick of Jack Frost.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: I love when stories have like— it's the first title, or—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —a second title.
AMANDA: It is really good. It's like the movie poster for the book, you know what I mean?
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: And not the book cover, but it's like a good movie poster tries to give you the title, but also like an intriguing little hook. And I think that that's really—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —what the subtitle does. Also, by the way, the thing I miss most about college was titling my own papers and just going—
JULIA: True.
AMANDA: —for it. Going kind of buck wild.
JULIA: I love when I stumble across a paper while I'm doing research and the title is just like, "Ooh, you thought a long time about that one." I love that for you.
AMANDA: Yeah. In the shower or in the middle of the night or at the gym, suddenly the person was like, "Oh, my God, this is the perfect play on, like, 40 and dissociation and, you know, hip hop," or whatever.
JULIA: Exactly. I love it. So in this story from Frank L. Baum, Jack Frost is a mischievous figure. He basically freezes children's shadows so that the shadows can separate from their child and then run off on their own adventures.
AMANDA: Oh, my God, he dream?
JULIA: I mean, maybe not for the child. I don't know.
AMANDA: I do— I am freaked about shadow stuff, I'm not gonna lie to you, but I think imagining what a shadow gets up to when freed is pretty fun.
JULIA: So as you can kind of see here, the portrayal of Jack Frost is that of almost like sprite like figure. He is definitely a bit of a nature spirit, though he is slightly more of a noble and likable figure. A lot of times his mischievousness is not evil.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But there is, Amanda, a way that he is portrayed in the 19th century that I find really interesting because notably, he is evoked during the Civil War.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And not as the sort of like trickster-y, fae-like creature that we're thinking of, but rather as a Union Major General.
AMANDA: For the Union?
JULIA: For the Union. He was not a Confederate.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: It's good.
AMANDA: Okay. That's good, because I was going to say, geographically and climate-wise, doesn't make any sense.
JULIA: Amanda, his most famous portrayal of this version of a, like, army Jack Frost comes from Harper's Weekly on October 5th, 1861.
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
JULIA: And so I just sent you an image of what it looks like.
AMANDA: It's kind of giving like— in the Pirates of the Caribbean, like the seaweed man, you know what I mean?
JULIA: Yeah, Davy Jones.
AMANDA: Yes. Riding a very spiky horse. This is like an icicle horse?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Is this getting at, like, cold ripping through the Southern battlefields and startling the Confederates?
JULIA: Oh, yes, Amanda. So this is illustrating a quote that was pulled from a speech from Benjamin Butler, who was a major general in the Union Army during the Civil War. And Butler claimed that the Confederate Army wouldn't be able to face the coming cold of the North. So here's the quote, "Our faithful old ally of the North, GENERAL JACK FROST," all caps, "shall come and clear away the malaria of the South and we shall march southward from this place. And there shall be no footsteps backwards until this rebellion is crushed out of this union."
AMANDA: I need, I need a scholar to draw a line between General Frost and Uncle Sam in Kendrick Lamar's Super Bowl halftime performance. I need it, Julia.
JULIA: I'm sure someone out there maybe could do that for us.
AMANDA: I need it.
JULIA: Okay, incredible. There are also a couple of other references to Jack Frost during the Civil War, mostly in the hope that, like, a colder winter brought by Jack himself, might kill off the diseases that often would sweep through troops during the hotter months of the year.
AMANDA: Yeah, you know, Valley Forge, great time, great battle, great— just memory for us.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Totally great. And don't worry about it. And definitely not everyone's freezing to death and losing limbs because of frostbite.
AMANDA: And eating horses, yep.
JULIA: All right, Amanda, there is one other thing that I want to mention.
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: And that is Suzy Snowflake. Now, a little peek behind the curtain. Before we started recording this, I told Amanda, "I think I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole of this. I don't know. It feels a little manic." And it kind of went off the rails when I discovered Suzy Snowflake.
AMANDA: Okay, okay. Can I just— can I make some predictions?
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: I think this is heteronormativity coming for Jack Frost and they are attempting to give him a busty wife. That's first prediction, she's busty in some way.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Second prediction, some drag queen has done a Suzy Snowflake performance and if she hasn't, ladies, I know you're listening, you should.
JULIA: Get on it.
AMANDA: Third, there is something about, like, their romance or courtship that brings about the spring.
JULIA: Okay, I love this. Thank you. Those are great guesses. So this is a stupid thing I found on Wikipedia while I was searching it. And when I do Wikipedia searches and stuff like that, it's so that I can find sources that I can then quote for these episodes, right?
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: Suzy Snowflake is supposed to be a snowflake personified. And it seems to be a character originating in, of all things, a 1953 song.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now, Suzy Snowflake was written by Sid Tepper and Roy C. Bennett, which is a duo that wrote a ton of songs for Elvis. And it was performed by Rosemary Clooney, who is probably like most famous, at least in my mind, for her song Mambo Italiano. "Hey, Mumbo, Mumbo Italiano." Do you know?
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: Okay. Here are a—
AMANDA: [17:51] that one back, too.
JULIA: It's a really good one. Here's this little sample of the lyrics, which is, "Here comes Suzy Snowflake dressed in a snow white gown. Tap, tap, tapping on your window pane to tell you she's in town."
AMANDA: Okay. I'm gonna say I get half points for busty because gown implies bust.
JULIA: Yes, fair, fair. So this is a figure that also weirdly is a little bit of a local legend for Chicago specifically.
AMANDA: Whoa.
JULIA: Now, there's a 1953 video that was introduced with Suzy Snowflake, the song that was played almost exclusively in the Chicago area.
AMANDA: 1953 video?
JULIA: 1953 video, and it was, like, not stop motion act— like it wasn't, like, Claymation or anything like that but it kind of was. Like, there's no real people in it.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: It's just kind of a doll of this Suzy Snowflake. You can find it online.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I'll link it in the director's commentary for our patrons. It's wild. So the Chicago internet seems to have a lot of fond memories of Suzy Snowflake. Apparently, like the local stations will still play it occasionally because [19:03]
AMANDA: Oh, my God, this is like local commercial lore turned up a notch.
JULIA: Exactly. Now, I bring her up because there are claims, again, this is the Wikipedia rabbit hole that I went down, that she is either in a relationship with, or married to Jack Frost. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why people think this because the article that I did find mentioned the two of them, like, together. Like— so the Wikipedia page cites this article being like, "This is the wife of Jack Frost," and I'm like, "Okay." And then I clicked through to the article and it's about a man who, for the past 17 years, has dressed up as Jack Frost in Frostburg, Maryland, and does it with his wife, Jackie Frost, and their children, Suzy Snowflake, Jack Jr., and Jack Jack Frost.
AMANDA: Jack Jack is insane.
JULIA: Jack Jack. Now, I don't think that's any of their legal names.
AMANDA: No, but I mean, some of them may still be living. I—
JULIA: They are. No, no, this guy has been doing it the past 17 years, Amanda.
AMANDA: Oh, of right now?
JULIA: He's still a real dude. Amanda, you can go on Instagram and follow his account. It is jack.frost.burg.
AMANDA: Incredible B-R-G.
JULIA: It's not even like a Chicago thing. That's the weird part. It's in Maryland.
AMANDA: Oh, my God, he's in full makeup!
JULIA: Yeah. And he does it every year with his three children and his wife.
AMANDA: God, that's so cute. Wait.
JULIA: Yeah. He needs more followers. Last time I checked, he only had, like, 650 followers.
AMANDA: Apparently, he and his wife— or like had a collab with someone for the Up Faith & Family, Over-The-Top Christian Television Network. Julia, he has 675 followers. We can get him to a thousand. Okay?
JULIA: I think we can get him to a thousand.
AMANDA: Multitude is following him right now. He's gonna have some questions, but we are following him right now.
JULIA: If you follow him, let him know we sent you.
AMANDA: Say, "Spirits podcast set me." And, folks, I'm just going to tell you right now, a collab is not off the table.
JULIA: I don't know. We'll see. We'll see.
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
JULIA: You'll also remember, earlier I said the origin of Jack Frost is kind of twofold, right? Now, that we've talked about Jack Frost as the modern understanding of it, a lot of, like, what we talk about on the show, there is a deeper origin, a deeper meaning behind this and also of different variety, right? So we might have the name Jack Frost, but that is just one name of the various personifications of winter that we can find around the world. Now, Jack Frost himself is a variation of the trope of Old Man Winter.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, there are several different versions of Old Man Winter, since he himself is just like this personification of winter. You'll find quite a few representations of winter around the world that show winter as an older man who essentially like— he'll often be able to freeze the world with just one touch, as we mentioned with Jack Frost, or his breath, he can blow cold into the land with his breath.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: One of the versions that I think has sort of shaped Jack Frost as we know it is perhaps the Russian tale Morozko or Father Frost.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: He is a Slavic spirit which predates Christianity spread into the region and is the personification of winter. Everything we're going to be talking about from now on is just going to be the personification of winter or cold, so—
AMANDA: And, you know, absolute makes all the sense in the world that Russia would be one of the prime examples of this.
JULIA: Exactly. So in modernity, he is often tied to Father Christmas or Santa Claus. If you see the modern portrayals of him throughout Eastern Europe, you would be forgiven for mistaking him for Santa, honestly.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So traditionally, he wears a long fur coat, colored usually red. Sometimes it's blue. Sometimes it's white. He wears a round fur hat and almost always has a long white beard. He's got a few bonus features that make him stand out from Santa such as his magic walking stick.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And he also rides a sleigh that is known as a troika, which is driven by harnessing three horses all next to each other rather than like— when I traditionally think of Santa, it's the reindeer in like doubles, a long—
AMANDA: Two by two.
JULIA: Yeah, two by two, but a long—
AMANDA: Or two by four, I guess.
JULIA: How many—
AMANDA: Well, it's Rudolph in front and then it's like four sets of two. Oh, she's counting the reindeer.
JULIA: Yeah, there is eight, there's eight. I just had to—
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: —list them off like I was in— what's the fucking movie? Jingle All the Way?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: I don't know if you've seen that one, Amanda. It's pretty funny.
AMANDA: Yes, our friend Nara [23:53] made sure that I saw it and it was astonishing.
JULIA: Excellent. Okay. Rather than that version of the sleigh, he uses the troika. He is interesting because he lost favor briefly around the Russian Revolution.
AMANDA: I mean, yeah.
JULIA: Because he was essentially associated with Christmas and they were like, "We're not a fan of that anymore."
AMANDA: Yeah, to put it mildly.
JULIA: Yes. But he gained favor back pretty quickly because he instead became linked with the Soviet New Year celebrations. Nowadays, you can find Father Frost around December time, especially around the New Year, where he will make appearances at children's parties and distribute presents. And I love this little fact, Amanda, because he'll even, on occasion, do "battle" with Baba Yaga, who is said to steal the gifts from the children.
AMANDA: Let's go. I am also fully picturing the feet of the Baba Yaga chicken house in, like, those little dog booties to protect their peets from the snow.
JULIA: Oh, no, that's so cute.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: All right.
JULIA: But they're also—
AMANDA: Artist to Spirits, get on it.
JULIA: But they're also the, like, toe sandals at the same time. It's really cute.
AMANDA: They have to be toe sandals.
JULIA: They have to.
AMANDA: Yeah. She can't just, like, step awkwardly like a dog that has never been on snow before.
JULIA: There you go. There you go. Now, Amanda, there is even a Russian fairy tale that focuses on Father Frost, which is also known as the story of King Frost, which was collected and translated by Alexander Lang, who you might know as the like Book of Fairies— the Coloured Book of Fairies books, you know, like the Yellow Book of Fairies—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —and et cetera, et cetera. Now, in the story, a woman has two daughters. She has a daughter that she loves, who is her birth daughter, and she has a stepdaughter that she hates.
AMANDA: Man, people have been really rude to step kids for a long time. Damn.
JULIA: Yeah, and to step parents.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: You know, it's one of those things where like we're just mean to step family in general. Now, one day the woman tells her husband that he has to take this hated stepdaughter, which is the husband's own birth daughter, by the way, out into the wilderness in the middle of winter and tells him to leave her there to die.
AMANDA: Huh?
JULIA: He's like, "I really don't want to." She's like, "That sucks. Do it anyway." And he's like, "Okay."
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: So he takes the girl into the forest. He leaves her at the foot of a tree in the middle of the forest and she— you know, weeping there bemoans her circumstances. But while she's there, she is found by Father Frost or King Frost, who is—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —described as "springing from tree to tree and cracking his fingers as he went." Now, I really like this detail because if you've ever been in a forest during a deep freeze when it's very cold, you can kind of hear the cracking of the trees and stuff like that. And I think that's such a great description. It's very evocative.
AMANDA: Oh, exactly. Yeah, all of the cellulose, all of the parts of the trees and foliage that typically bend and sway in the wind are instead rigid because all the water is frozen and it's such a beautiful, little symphony.
JULIA: When King Frost reaches her, he asks her, "Are you warm?" And she's like—
AMANDA: "Bitch, no."
JULIA: No. She says, "Yes, I'm warm." And she lies. And she's, like, very politely telling him, "Yes, I'm totally warm," despite the fact that she is freezing and shivering. And he asks her three times and each time she's like, "I'm so warm." And as he gets closer and closer, his like breath starts to freeze against her skin and all of that. And she's like, "I'm so warm. I'm so good." But, Amanda, because she was so polite and she didn't complain about the cold in his presence, he takes pity on her. He wraps her in fine furs. He covers her in blankets. And then he gives her a chest full of beautiful jewels and rich clothing.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And then he takes her on his sleigh, which is driven by six white horses and returns her home.
AMANDA: Jesus. And she says, "Hey, go fuck yourself, parents, I'm outta here."
JULIA: So meanwhile, the wicked stepmother is like, "Husband, you know what? It's been long enough. Why don't you go back into the forest and collect the body of your daughter?"
AMANDA: Yikes.
JULIA: But before he can do that, the daughter returns with her jewels and her finery. And the stepmother is like, "Holy shit, this is a great gift you've been given." The daughter tells her, "Oh, yeah, so I went to the forest and I met King Frost, and he gave me all these things." And the stepmother is like, "Huh. Interesting. I bet we could do this twice." And so she says to her husband, "Take our other daughter, leave her at the tree that you specifically left this girl at."
AMANDA: "You know, the tree where we leave the kids we want to kill."
JULIA: "And she'll be able to get this cool stuff, too." The father does the same, leaves the daughter there, and King Frost comes and asks if she is warm. And she responds, "Of course I'm not warm. I'm freezing, can't you tell?" And so her responses are so rude that Father Frost is enraged and freezes her to death with a crack of his fingers.
AMANDA: Okay, number one, the biggest, little sister energy I think we have ever encountered here on Spirits, Julia.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. "Of course I'm not warm. What are you talking about? It's freezing out here."
AMANDA: Second, that is a rough deal for that kid.
JULIA: Yes. So when the girl does not return, the stepmother goes out to seek her. And when she finds her body and embraces it, she too is frozen to death, leaving only the "good" daughter and her father to live their life of riches together.
AMANDA: Sad for half that family.
JULIA: Well, yeah, I guess.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: The people got what they deserved kind of thing, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah, that's fair.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, I think this is just one great example of the personification of winter that might have helped inspire the Jack Frost as we know him now. And I want to dig into several more. But first, we got to grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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AMANDA: Hey everybody, it's Amanda and welcome to the refill where I have a beautiful new and welcoming back class of patrons to thank. Thank you very much to our newest patron named aptly Secret Admirer and to those who have upgraded to annual pledges, PeggyPegs, Lyle, and Rikoelike. So happy to have you back. All of you have upgraded to annual and we are so thankful. We really, really appreciate it. And it's awesome that you took advantage of our 30% off sale there at the end of November. So we are excited to lock in for another year of Spirits, another year of your support. Can't wait for you to see what we have cooking up. Thank you as well to our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Hannah, Scott, Anne, Matthew, Rikoelike, Lily, and Wil. And our legend-level patrons Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. If you would like to join these fine folks and get things like ad-free episodes, director's commentary on each episode, Julia and I put together, mostly Julia, an entire list of additional thoughts and links and things that we didn't get to in the episode itself for you to enjoy. Again, ad-free, recipe cards, bonus urban legends every single month. You have a wonderful tarot reading coming up for the winter solstice. It's a great time to join at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Always a ton of stuff happening over at Multitude, our podcast collective. And this week, I want to shout out the other podcast I make every week, Join the Party. This is an actual play podcast with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators who make each other laugh every dang week. Two of those collaborators are me and Julia, joined by GM Eric and our friend Brandon, and we welcome everybody to the table from longtime TTRPG players to people who have never touched a role-playing game before. I was somebody who had never played Dungeons & Dragons or Masks or Kids on Bikes or any of those games when we started Join the Party almost eight years ago. You get to hear me learn how to play right along with me. And hopefully, it gives you an excuse to pick up a TTRPG to play pretend with your friends as well. So come on over. You can start with any of the four completed seasons we have or the current season we have going on right now, which is season five in your podcast app. So come on over, go to jointhepartypod.com or subscribe to Join the Party in your podcast app now. We are sponsored this week by Blueland, because the holidays are all about creating a cozy and safe home. And one of the ways I do that is making sure that all of the cleaning products I use are not going to irritate anyone's sensitivities or allergies, which my grandma, who I share a home with, definitely has. And so that is why I have made the switch to Blueland across all my cleaning products, especially during the holidays when many of us are spending more time cooking, hosting, and cozying up the indoors. Blueland products meet the highest standard of clean. They're effective yet gentle on people and the planet. In fact, Blueland was named an EPA Safer Choice Partner of the Year. From cleaning sprays and toilet bowl cleaner to dishwasher and laundry detergent tablets, Blueland's formulas are 100% microplastic free, made with certified clean ingredients free from chlorine bleach and harsh chemicals that are safe to use around me and my grandma, and all my plants that are in the house. You will love not having to choose between the safe option and what actually gets your home clean. And folks, it smells really good. I absolutely love the winter berry scent, by the way, which is one of their new hand soap options. Delish. To stock up on sustainable cleaning products for yourself or to give a beautiful, sustainable gift to your friends and family this holiday season, go to blueland.com/spirits and save up to 30 % during Blueland's holiday sale. Don't wait, folks. They only do this sale once per year. That's 30% off during Blueland's holiday sale by going to blueland.com/spirits. blueland.com/spirits for 30% off. We are also sponsored this week by Uncommon Goods. The holidays are almost here and if, like me, you still have people to shop for, I'm going to invite you and myself not to panic. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress-free and actually joyful with thousands of one-of-a-kind gifts that you can't find anywhere else. You'll discover presents for folks on your list that feel meaningful and personal, never rushed or last minute, because Uncommon Goods looks for products that are high quality, unique, and often either handmade or made in the US. Now, they have something for everyone. I think it is so cool that I was able to find a very, very beautiful gift for my dad, who is hard to shop for, who loves architecture and books, and I got a beautiful edition of, like, a coffee table book all about one of his favorite architects. And I love that because whether you are shopping for your dad or like someone in your life who is a foodie or a teenager and you're like, "What are the hell do teens even like right now?" You will find unforgettable gifts on Uncommon Goods that are anything but ordinary. And they also give back a dollar to a nonprofit partner of your choice with every purchase you make at Uncommon Goods. So don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/spirits. That's uncommongoods.com/spirits for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods, we're all out of the ordinary.
GUSTAVO: Hi, I'm Gustavo Sorola. And if you love D&D style adventure full of humor and heart, you should check out Tales From The Stinky Dragon. Tales From The Stinky Dragon is a cinematic listening experience complete with guest performances from professional voice actors and comedians, immersive sound design, and its own musical score. Go on a thrilling journey with four friends and me, Gus, the very patient Dungeon Master, as we stumble through disastrous dice rolls, questionable roleplay decisions, and even a few wholesome feel good moments along the way. You can binge on our first two campaigns or join us every other week for our latest third campaign. No matter where you decide to start listening, you're guaranteed to have a side-splitting journeys that's fun for all ages and perfect for both D&D veterans and newcomers alike. Just search for Tales From The Stinky Dragon wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe today.
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JULIA: Now, Amanda, we are back and if you search for a Jack Frost cocktail on the internet, chances are you're going to find like a cocktail that, for whatever reason, has coconut and blue carousel. And, like, I get it. It's blue and blue reads cold. Sure. But I think a real Jack Frost cocktail should have some sort of, like, minty cooling sensation when you drink it, because Jack Frost—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —is supposed to be nipping at your nose, nipping at your extremities.
AMANDA: If Jack Frost is nipping at my tongue, Julia, we have a bit more of an intimate relationship than the average Jack Frost and the average winter goer.
JULIA: Listen, if a man is nibbling at my nose, chances are we've already kissed or we're going to be kissing soon.
AMANDA: That's fair.. That's fair.
JULIA: So I'm going to suggest for this one a martini style cocktail that's got a little bit of a mint bite. Fresh mint, though. No Creme de Menthe for me, personally. So this is going to be a nice botanical gin. If you can find something that's super juniper forward, I would use that. A little bit of dry vermouth, a splash of elderflower liqueur, and then a dash of yellow chartreuse just to make it a little bit more complex.
AMANDA: Delish. And, like, many sort martini style drinks, you can put it in a frosted glass.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Or you can batch it and put it your freezer. Freezer martini, one of the best types of martini.
AMANDA: Very true.
JULIA: Now, we've gone through a couple of winter spirits, including of course, Jack Frost. But let's talk about a few more that I think are worth mentioning. We've talked a decent amount about Old Man Winter. And part of that in more modernity comes from the portrayals of a Greek god, Boreas.
AMANDA: Oh, like Aurora.
JULIA: Exactly. So this is the god of the North Wind, the cold winter wind, and storms that come out of the north. And of course—
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: —he has three other wind siblings which are Eurus, Notus, and Zephyrus, because the four winds in the four cardinal directions.
AMANDA: Ah, yeah.
JULIA: And of the four winds, he is viewed as the strongest and the one with the most temper.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But most importantly to us, he's normally depicted as a winged old man.
AMANDA: Okay. Wait, winged?
JULIA: Winged, because he's flying through the air.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Now, because you put the Santa Claus in my imagination, I am imagining that one old head who played the tooth fairy.
JULIA: That one old head who played the tooth fairy.
AMANDA: In the Santa Claus movies.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. He's like—
AMANDA: Little baby wings. He's a real fat guy.
JULIA: He's like a dentist, but also he flies. Yes. Okay, cool.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So that is Art LaFleur.
AMANDA: Okay, okay. That guy.
JULIA: Okay. Cool, cool, cool.
AMANDA: A little Mickey Rourke type.
JULIA: He is kind of a Mickey Rourke type. You're absolutely right. So he blows his wind, though not out of his own mouth, but rather through a conch shell and has a billowing cloak that flies out behind him. Again, because he's wind, right? Makes sense. Billowing cloak. He is the son of Eos, who is the personification of the dawn and her husband, Astreus, who is basically just associated with the stars. He's a minor star deity. And according to Herodotus, he lives in a land called Hyperborea or beyond the North wind. Now, despite the fact that it is said that this is the most northern part of the known world, the Hyperboreans were protected by Boreas, so their lands were blessed by him, and as such they were sunny and temperate rather than freezing cold.
AMANDA: That's amazing. I am also, Julia, just— I just have to acknowledge it or else it will distract me for rest of the episode. Can you imagine how good Herodotus would have been at Tumblr?
JULIA: He would have been so good.
AMANDA: Can you imagine the worldbuilding fan fiction that this man would add to every reblog?
JULIA: That man is just creating like 10k word worldbuilding, like, headcanon documents constantly.
AMANDA: Like in tags.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: In tags.
JULIA: In tags. And you're like, "Please just put these in a post."
AMANDA: I can't read this, yeah.
JULIA: I keep having to click see more, see more.
AMANDA: Please, Herodotus, for me.
JULIA: So this land was seen as a paradise where citizens were completely happy and lived particularly long lives, and I kind of like that for him.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Like, even though he's seen as, like, the grumpiest, you know, the quickest to anger, he gives these people a really nice life and they live for a really long time, and I think that's really beautiful.
AMANDA: I am a big fan of the grumpy ruler who, nevertheless, has good morals and, you know, makes sure that we're all okay.
JULIA: He has a bunch of super interesting stories, but I'm going to share one of my favorites, which is when he and Helios got into an argument over who was the strongest. And so they made a wager. Whoever could get a passing traveler to remove his cloak would be considered the strongest.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: So Boreas goes first. He's blowing his cold wind at this man. But no matter how hard he blew, the man would just wrap the cloak tighter around him because he's cold, right? And then Helios went after that, and showed the sun brightly above him and the traveler, beginning to overheat, removes the cloak, which gives Helios the victory.
AMANDA: What a folkloric anecdote. I love that.
JULIA: Isn't that great? I think that was an Aesop fable in particular, because of course it was.
AMANDA: It's like work smarter, not harder, you know?
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Exactly, exactly. Now at this point, we've talked a lot about Old Man Winter, but Amanda, how about Mother Frost or Grandma Frost?
AMANDA: Ooh. New character enters.
JULIA: Exactly, because there are several personifications of winter that are characterized as women rather than men.
AMANDA: I would love to learn about them and kind of judge how busty they are.
JULIA: Let's start with one of my favorites, which is Cailleach. So Cailleach, also known as the Queen of Winter, she is mentioned in both Irish and Scottish folklore. And she was said specifically to have created the landscape of Scotland. But more frequently, she is associated with storms and winter. And she is sometimes referred to as a divine hag, which is basically what the translation of her name means.
AMANDA: Absolutely same.
JULIA: Hey, goals.
AMANDA: Absolute goals.
JULIA: So like I said, she created the landscape of Scotland because she, as a giantess, strode across the land and accidentally either dropped a bunch of rocks from her basket or she was said to more purposefully create the land by wielding a hammer that helped shaped the hills and the valleys.
AMANDA: Gorgeous.
JULIA: Isn't that cool?
AMANDA: Also just love a hammer-wielding woman. I'm just gonna put that out there.
JULIA: So she is described particularly by the folklorist Donald Alexander Mackenzie as being a one-eyed giantess with white hair, dark blue skin, and rust-colored teeth.
AMANDA: I can think of several people who would be excited to get stepped on by that lady.
JULIA: All of Scotland, apparently.
AMANDA: All of Scotland as a— yeah, as a, like, submissive lover boy. Makes sense to me.
JULIA: She is said to be the opposite to the summer goddess Brij ruling the land during the winter months from Saïn to Beltine.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Now during these months, she does a bunch of winter activities like herding deer, fighting off the spring, freezing the ground with her staff, right? And it is said on the winter solstice, the longest night of the year, she will visit the Well of Youth, which allows her to grow younger throughout the winter season. One of my favorite stories from her, Amanda, is it is said that on the West Coast of Scotland, she ushers in the winter by washing her belted plaid or great plaid in the Gulf of Corryvreckan which is pretty well known even to this day for its very famous whirlpool.
AMANDA: So cool.
JULIA: Now, it is said that it takes her three whole days to wash her plaid. And as she does, the first storm of winter builds with it. And when she finishes washing it, her plaid is now pure white and the first snow of the season covers the land.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Isn't that gorgeous? I love that.
AMANDA: Gorgeous.
JULIA: It's such a cool story.
AMANDA: Also reminds me of— this is not quite the same, but there is this video that I'm sure you've seen online of, like, a Scottish man wrapping his kilt and a woman wrapping a sari. And they, like, show the kilt and the sari, like each of them is, you know, 30 yards long, like stretched out on the grass. It's so cool.
JULIA: It's so cool. I almost went down a bit of a rabbit hole to finding out the different types of plaid and kilting. And I was like, "So what's the difference between this one and this one?" And I just don't have the time to talk about it here on the podcast.
AMANDA: What do a mythology of kilts episode, though?
JULIA: Oh. I feel like I would want to do more of, like, an anthropological, sociological angle on that rather than, like, the actual folklore around it. But, huh, I'm going look into that.
AMANDA: Sign me up.
JULIA: Another version of an older woman representing winter is Frau Holle or Old Mother Frost. So as you can probably guess from the name, she is a Germanic figure, one who might have originally been associated with the Scandinavian holda, which we've spoken about on the show before. These are essentially forest spirits, usually beautiful women, but they have a distinctive inhuman feature, like an animal's tail or a hole in their back, like a tree that's been hollowed out.
AMANDA: Yep. Still wood.
JULIA: Still— fair enough, fair enough. However, it's more likely that she was inspired by the goddess Perchta, who is an alpine goddess whose name means the bright one. Now, she is a goddess with two forms, one where she is beautiful and, like, has skin white like the snow, which is a nod to her name, the bright one. And another one where she is elderly and a little bit more crone-like, I would say.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: Now, she would roam the countryside in the middle of winter and would enter homes where she knew that the young children and servants were well-behaved and had worked hard all year round. And then she would leave them a small silver coin in their shoes.
AMANDA: Ideal.
JULIA: Yeah, I— listen, winter gift-giving holidays are kind of, like, the through line for a lot of these. We—
AMANDA: Because it's something to get us through that long, cold darkness.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. However, Amanda, if she comes across a household where the children were not good or the servants were not well-behaved and industrious, she would enter the homes, slit their bellies, remove their guts, and then stuff them full of straw and pebbles.
AMANDA: Oh, my God. That's bad.
JULIA: Yeah, kind of brutal, I would say, compared to some of the other winter gift-giving spirits that we've talked about in the show before. Even Krampus has only beaten people.
AMANDA: Yeah, exactly, which can be fun, depending on your persuasion or like a lump of coal in the stocking is like, "Okay, sure. It's not a silver coin. Okay. Whoa, fine. I still have my belly."
JULIA: Jeez. Yeah. No, it's bad. It's bad.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: But Frau Holle is a little bit of a kinder spirit. There is a story of her told by the Brothers Grimm, which most likely popularized her in modernity. So the story goes that once there was a rich widow who had two daughters. One was her birth daughter. One was a stepdaughter.
AMANDA: Uh-uh.
JULIA: This is going to sound really familiar.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: Her birth daughter was lazy and spoiled while her stepdaughter was kind and hardworking and was forced by her stepmother to do all of the household chores.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: One of those chores was spinning thread. Every day, she would sit by the well of the house and she would spin. Now one day, she was spinning by the well and she pricked her finger on the spindle.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Kind of a classic fairy tale moment there.
AMANDA: Indeed.
JULIA: Now, to wash away the blood, she leaned over the well, but as she did so, the spindle fell from her hand and sank deep into the well. She's like, "Ah, shit." So she goes to her stepmother to tell her what happened and the stepmother tells her, "You must go and fetch that spindle," saying, "Since you let it fall in, you have to fetch it out again."
AMANDA: I do think all fairy tales would be improved by just making sure that a character at some point says, "Ah, shit."
JULIA: "Ah, shit." Yeah. So the girl goes back to the well and isn't exactly sure what to do, but knowing she has to go and get the thing back, she decides to jump into the well.
AMANDA: Oh, girl.
JULIA: Now, as she jumps into the well, the story says she loses her senses. Essentially, she blacks out.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And when she wakes up again, she finds herself in a beautiful meadow, Amanda. The sun is shining. There are thousands of flowers all around her. And she begins to explore. And as she does so, she comes across an oven in the middle of this meadow, full of bread.
AMANDA: Okay. Whoa.
JULIA: And the bread calls out to her and says, "Oh, take me out or I'll burn."
AMANDA: I mean, okay. Yeah.
JULIA: So she does that, she uses a baker's peel, she removes all these loaves out of the oven, and then sort of piles them there and leaves them there.
AMANDA: Yeah. And then she's like, "Uh, okay. Thanks."
JULIA: She's like, "Okay." And then she moves on and she finds a tree that's full of apples. And the tree calls out and says, "Shake me. All of these apples, they're ripe."
AMANDA: Why is she doing housework even in her fantasy?
JULIA: I don't know. So again, she does that, Amanda. She shakes a tree until all the apples fall out. She gathers them. She puts them in a pile and she leaves them there. She continues on her way. Finally, she comes across a house and sees an old woman inside, looking out at her. She is startled because she's like, "This woman is weird. She has very large teeth."
AMANDA: Oh, weird.
JULIA: But before she can run away because she's a little scared by this woman, the woman calls out, "Don't be afraid, my dear child. Stay here with me. And if you do my housework in an orderly fashion, it'll go well for you. Only you must take care to make my bed well and to shake it diligently until the feathers fly, and then it will snow in the world."
AMANDA: Wow. I didn't— okay. Wow.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Sometimes folklore takes you by surprise.
JULIA: Yes. Sometimes it does. So the girl thought, "This woman seems kind." So she agrees, she starts doing the chores, she takes care of everything to the satisfaction of this old woman. And finally she shakes the bed so vigorously that the feathers fly around the room like snowflakes. And this is why, Amanda, in Germany, they say that when it is snowing, that Frau Holle is making her bed.
AMANDA: Aw. That's really cute.
JULIA: This is not the end of the story, though. So the old woman, satisfied, She tells the girl, "Hey, my name is Frau Holle." And if you would like to have a good life, essentially, you can stay here with me and I will give you no angry words and you will have meat for every meal."
AMANDA: Hey, Julia, that's pretty good!
JULIA: Pretty nice. And this girl, not happy with the life that she had left behind, agrees to that. But after some time of staying with Frau Holle, she becomes a little sad and she's like, "I don't even know what's wrong with me." But then before long, she realizes that she's homesick, even though the life that she has here is a thousand times better than the life that she left back behind at home."
AMANDA: Very relatable. Something about the comforts and the disappointments you knew still strike home.
JULIA: So she came to Frau Holle and tells her that she missed her home, she has to return. And she tells her, "Listen, since you served me so faithfully, I'll take you back home myself."
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: So she takes the girl to the gates of her home. And as she passes beneath the gates, a rain of literal gold starts falling from the gates, sticking to the girl's skin.
AMANDA: Whoa.
JULIA: And this is the gift from Frau Holle for being so industrious.
AMANDA: Aw. Thanks, Frau.
JULIA: And then with these riches, she also returns the spindle that the girl had lost.
AMANDA: She's like, "Yeah, I'm up several thousand pieces of gold, but there's the spindle."
JULIA: You don't want to come home with no spindle when your evil stepmom was like, "You've got to get that spindle back."
AMANDA: Yeah, returns three years later with the spindle, "There you go, bitch."
JULIA: Exactly. So she returns to her home and when her stepmother and stepsister see her covered in gold, they're like, "Welcome back, this is great for all of us."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So the girl tells her stepmother how she came across such riches and the stepmother is determined to have her own lazy daughter do the same thing.
AMANDA: No, don't chuck the stepdaughter— don't chuck the daughter down the well. Don't do it.
JULIA: So she sends her daughter down the well, she has her—
AMANDA: No!
JULIA: —prick her finger on the thimble, she drops it in the well, she jumps in after it. Now, the girl finds herself in the same land that her stepsister had found. She doesn't remove the bread from the oven, she doesn't shake the apples from the tree, and when she gets to Frau Holle's home, she forces herself to do the chores given to her because she's like, "I know I'm gonna get gold out of this, this'll be great."
AMANDA: Tough.
JULIA: However, that's only the first day. And as more and more days go on, she becomes lazier and lazier, and she doesn't do the tasks that this magical woman asked for in the way that she asked for.
AMANDA: Listen, her stepsister's doing all the chores. I don't even know if she knows how to do these chores.
JULIA: Exactly. And so then— so, like, it gets to the point where the story is like, she doesn't even shake the bed well enough that the feathers fly and it snows on the land.
AMANDA: Uh-uh. It's a warm winter.
JULIA: Now, this pisses Frau Holle off pretty considerably and she dismisses the girl from her duties and leads her back to the gate. As the girl passes through the gate, however, instead of gold, pitch rains from the sky, coating the lazy girl. And when she returns home, she is covered in it and it does not come off for as long as she lives.
AMANDA: Fucking brutal, Julia. What a good story.
JULIA: It's pretty brutal. Now, I also really like this story because a lot of the Grimm's fairy tales, they are, you know, fairy tales in which there's a moral and that's about it. But this one is really interesting and a little bit unique among them because it's also an origin myth. You know, it tells us why it snows, right? And also ties Frau Holle to snow and winter. And she is historically then been tied to the days around the winter solstice. So in modernity, you know, post-Christianity coming to the rest of Germany, she ends up showing up around the 12 nights of Christmas or around Advent, right?
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Now, there's one more version of the story— or version of Frau Hall that I want to share with you. And this is tied to spinning. So we kind of have a little bit of the spinning angle from the Grimm's fairy tale. But also this character has a little more like Perchta vibes in terms of the gifting and whatnot. So this is the Spillaholle. Now she is, for lack of better phrase, a hag who carries around a bundle of stinging nettles with her and is used essentially as a boogeyman of sorts for children who are put in charge of the spinning. Now when you— also when I'm talking about spinning we know what I'm talking about, it's like turning fiber into thread or yarn or whatever.
AMANDA: Tedious. Very necessary. Kids did it a lot and women because the smaller your fingers, the easier the spinning.
JULIA: Exactly. So, Spillaholle, much like her sister spirits, the ones she's associated with, is associated with the winter months where she goes from house to house to make sure that the children and the spinsters are doing their job industriously, but also she doesn't want them to be spinning in the evenings, which is interesting. I like this because it's kind of like a anti-burnout angle a little bit.
AMANDA: Yeah, right? It's like, "Hey, you gotta, you know, take a break."
JULIA: I like that, personally. So if she arrives and the work isn't done or people are spinning at night when she arrives, she will steal away the person who is doing that, whether that is the spinster or the children.
AMANDA: Okay, this sounds like a very smart piece of folkloric technology to be like, "Honey, I can't keep spinning until I fall asleep. If not— I mean, my soul will get taken and then who will do the spinning?
JULIA: Exactly. That's not good. Not even the soul, just fully kidnapped.
AMANDA: Yes, that's true.
JULIA: But Amanda, if the work is done, she will leave behind a nettle, which doesn't seem like a good gift compared to the silver coin in your shoe. But one of her magic nettles will actually banish misfortune from the house for an entire year.
AMANDA: I'll take that.
JULIA: She's also said to bring snow with her when she peeks into homes to check on the spinning. So she's like—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —kind of the rolling snowstorm that comes in, or rather, if there's a snowstorm coming in, you're like, "Ah, we have to finish the spinning because Spillaholle is here."
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, there are some other winter spirits out there. And if you have a favorite listening to this episode that I didn't mention, please feel free to share it with us. I think I could probably do another one of these next year if I really want to. But the next time that you step outside and you feel that, like, nipping of cold at your fingers or your nose, it might not just be Jack Frost. It might be a whole plethora of gods and goddesses that are bringing the winter chill with them.
AMANDA: I am absolutely entranced by this episode, Julia. Great job. And by the way, friend of the show, Yvonne Pliss, [57:09] born in the USSR, gave me deep lore about Father and Grandfather Frost, his—
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: —hot daughter, the snow maiden, and—
JULIA: I didn’t mention the snow maiden.
AMANDA: —it concludes with a educational Russian language cartoon involving a wolf in drag. So if you're not a patron of Spirits, go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast where these links, including a video, will be in your director's commentary.
JULIA: Incredible. And Amanda, the next time, you feel a chill in the air, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JULIA: Later, Satyrs.
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