Merlin
/You’ve heard his name before: Merlin. Not the first wizard, but the most important wizard! We’re taking a crack at Arthurian legend, digging into how the prototypical wizard shaped the stories, including his demonic birth, his terrible romances, and his role as Arthur’s Wizard Daddy.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of colonialism, warfare, child endangerment/sacrifice, bestiality, death, poor working conditions, sexual assault/harrasment, incest, and sexual content.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. Amanda, I want you to describe to me what you picture when I say wizard.
AMANDA: Julia, I picture someone with a long blue cloak with stars and moons on it, probably some kind of pointy, if not silly hat. I picture a staff. The staff might have like an orb on top, or maybe there's like a staff, and then also some kind of, like, magic orb that you can look into a crystal ball. I am picturing various spells, probably like a leather bound book, maybe a pentacle on it, and some kind of tower or secluded place, maybe even in the woods.
JULIA: Okay. All right. And that's a very distinct picture that you have in your mind there, right?
AMANDA: It is. It reminds me of, probably, like, the Rider-Waite tarot deck, the sort of, like, you know, magician, wizard figure. There is a way to look like a wizard for Halloween, and that's what I'm picturing.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, the reason that you have this very specific image in your mind is because of a very specific and very recognizable figure that is pretty much the prototypical wizard, and that is Merlin.
AMANDA: Merlin. That's right. The granddaddy of all wizards.
JULIA: So he is described in Merlin: A Casebook by Peter H. Goodrich, as the second-best known character from medieval literature, which, honestly, in reading that, made me laugh.
AMANDA: What's the first?
JULIA: First off, it's funny that he is the second well-known one stated in his own casebook. That's funny as hell.
AMANDA: Yeah. Damn.
JULIA: But this is actually saying a lot, Amanda, because he is the second-best known character in all of medieval literature, outranked only by King Arthur.
AMANDA: Oh, of course.
JULIA: But here's the thing, is Merlin lies at the center of nearly every Arthurian legend. He's out there arranging Arthur's birth. He's making prophecies about the destiny of the Britons. He builds Stonehenge in legend.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: He trains and advises Arthur, and not just Arthur, but several other characters as well, throughout his quests. And he is poised to either return or be reborn any day now.
AMANDA: No shit. There's a revival prophecy about Merlin?
JULIA: There is, indeed. Just like Arthur. Both of them are said to come when Britons need them the most.
AMANDA: Oh. And it wasn't the Blitz, we didn't need them then?
JULIA: Apparently not.
AMANDA: Oh, okay.
JULIA: Apparently not.
AMANDA: All right. Goddamn.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, now that I've said the name Merlin, what does that kind of evoke for you, besides the prototypical wizard image? That's a really good question, Julia, because I think that, apart from being the sort of wizard after which other wizards are modeled, I don't know a ton about Merlin. I think of him as like a somewhat historical figure, like maybe roots in some amount of history, certainly important to, I would imagine, pagans, maybe even Wiccans in Britain. But I— when you said Merlin and King Arthur, I was like, "All right, those are different guys." Honestly, this is a thing that I don't know a ton about.
JULIA: Yeah. Yes. And I think we've very briefly touched on Arthurian legend here and there, over the years, we've been doing this podcast. And part of the reason is, I'm definitely not a Arthurian scholar and also, there are a lot of sources that kind of come together to create Arthurian legend. Listen, if this is enjoyable for us and it's enjoyable for our audience, maybe we'll do a little mini Arthurian series somewhere down the line. Who can say?
AMANDA: Ooh. Let us know if you like that idea.
JULIA: Often, we consider Merlin to be a slightly silly figure, if only because of how he is often portrayed in modern media, especially when that media is geared towards younger audiences. So thinking of like the Disney movie, The Sword in the Stone. I'm thinking of the BBC Merlin series that was very popular on Tumblr at the height of the Tumblr age. I'm thinking of these very like, "Oh, he's just a little, silly wizard guy.
AMANDA: Yeah. I'm realizing that what I was describing to you, Julia, was Mickey Mouse's costume from Fantasia maybe.
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: When he is, like, doing—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —all the music. Also, parodied to death via Monty Python, so absolutely often a subject of ridicule. He seems antiquated, even in media that takes place in his time.
JULIA: Exactly. But, Amanda, the original Merlin, whose origins are rooted in pre-Christian traditions before being molded by the influence of Christianity, is supposed to be this shadowy, sort of mysterious figure. He is, in many ways, a trickster figure. He is constantly changing forms, both in stories and how he is portrayed in Arthurian legend. Like, he is literally transforming into different, like, beings and animals and stuff like that. But he also changes how he is portrayed, depending on who is telling our story.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, does he have sex with or as animals? Because I need to know, on a scale of like one to Zeus, how much of a fuck father Merlin was.
JULIA: I don't think he has sex as an animal ever, but I could be wrong.
AMANDA: Okay. Okay. So we're— I'm sensing like a 1.5 or a 2. We're pretty low on the scale.
JULIA: Yes, but he is doing a lot of transformations, and also is arguably having some sex.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So—
AMANDA: This will be my through line for this episode.
JULIA: Great. I love that for you. So scholars have spent hundreds of years debating his origins, debating the way he is portrayed, his canonical fate, even, but we're going to do our best to kind of present a representation of who Merlin was and the stories that formed him.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: So I want to quickly give a shout out to another podcast. I don't often do this on the show, but if you want to dive in a little deeper into the origins of Merlin in both history and myth, our researcher Sally recommended this podcast to me, it's called Magic & Mountains by T. A. Barron, who has written like a fairly large amount of Merlin fiction.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: But the first season is primarily— especially the first two episodes, it's primarily about the origins of Merlin, and it's also like his own personal journey with Merlin. And then goes on further to talk about Merlin as a way to speak about creativity and Merlin as a way to connect with the environment. So—
AMANDA: Oh, right on.
JULIA: —definitely worth checking out. Pretty cool show. I like it.
AMANDA: Thanks, Sally.
JULIA: Couple of different books and stuff like that that I'll mention in this episode, including the Merlin: A Casebook where he is only the second-best known character of all-time. First things first, I mentioned pre-Christian origins from Merlin, before we kind of dig into the mythological origins of him, according to the text that we have. His origins are a bit debated, but the general consensus is that he is a amalgamation of a few different figures. The first being, this is Welsh, Myrrdin Wyllt, who is a bard and a wild man from Welsh tradition. Also Ambrosius Aurelianus, who is a warrior prophet from the Roman occupation of Britain. And also potentially a Welsh pre-Christian god who is associated with the town of Carmarthen.
AMANDA: You know, bad ass, a little silly, loves Fashion. I should have known Merlin was Welsh.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Merlin is solidly Welsh, I would say.
AMANDA: Right on. You did good with that one, Wales.
JULIA: Even in the fiction, he comes from Wales. So where and at what point does Merlin enter into Arthurian legend?
AMANDA: Is it related to England's annexation of Wales?
JULIA: Not quite, Amanda. So—
AMANDA: Okay. All right.
JULIA: —I'm talking about the actual legend itself here. You know, we're talking about how was he born even, according to the stories that we're telling. First off, again, I want to reiterate, we have to remember that Arthurian legend has a canon, I suppose, in a similar way to Greek mythology has a canon. Like, there are established stories, but those stories change over time, depending on who is telling them.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Characters are being added and changed. Backstories are shifted and re-established. Sometimes, the stories even contradict the previous established stories in the canon.
AMANDA: Oh, it's comic books. Of course.
JULIA: It is comic books, yes. I would say comic books are the closest we have to Arthurian legend now.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: So it won't be surprising to hear that there are at least two different birth origins for Merlin himself. The first one we're going to talk about is according to Geoffrey Monmouth's Kings of Britain, where Merlin is introduced when following a massacre of British chieftains by the Saxon leader, King Vortigern, who is basically like a few kings before Arthur becomes king.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Begins building, essentially, like a fortified tower in order to protect himself. He's like, "It's bad out there. I don't want to get slaughtered like the rest of the folks, I'm gonna build me this really strong tower so no one's gonna be able to come get me."
AMANDA: Mark Zuckerberg thinks he's the first person to have any thought. And him doing this on the island of Hawaii, people have died constructing his, like, Mega bunker in Hawaii because of the incredibly bad conditions. Anyway, never an original thought in that man's life.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, not too far off from what Mark Zuckerberg is doing, because every night, whatever progress was made by his builders during the day would mysteriously become undone when the foundations would begin to crumble.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: So Vortigern consults his own wizards, because he has other wizards.
AMANDA: Merlin, not the first wizard, but the daddy wizard.
JULIA: Yes, not the first wizard, but the most important wizard, I'd say. So he consults his wizards. He's like, "How do we stabilize this foundation? What's going on here?" They're like, "We're not sure exactly what's going on, but you know what would help make sure this foundation doesn't crumble anymore? Blood sacrifice of a child."
AMANDA: I was the same blood sacrifice of a child. Julia, you never let me be the one to say blood sacrifice of a child.
JULIA: I'm sorry. Do you want to retake it?
AMANDA: No, it's too late.
JULIA: You know what would help with this foundation?
AMANDA: Blood sacrifice of a child. You're right. It sounds great.
JULIA: Yes. Specifically, they recommend a child that has no mortal father.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And then, you know, you're gonna blood sacrifice that child, and then you mix that blood into the foundation, and that'll help stabilize it.
AMANDA: Yikes.
JULIA: I don't know a lot about construction, despite that being kind of what my husband does, but I don't know that adding blood to mortar is necessarily gonna help.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, I do know a fair amount about mixing cement, and I gotta tell you, if blood's in it, you've done something wrong. You gotta throw that batch out.
JULIA: So these wizards don't know shit is what I'm hearing.
AMANDA: Uh-uh. Nope.
JULIA: These wizards then tell the king about a child who just happens to be named Merlin.
AMANDA: Huge.
JULIA: Merlin's father is unknown, but is described by Merlin's mother as being some sort of nocturnal phantom.
AMANDA: What?
JULIA: Vortigern's wizards claim that, "Oh, a nocturnal phantom? Must be an incubus."
AMANDA: Yeah, that sounds like some demon sex shit.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. So they're like, "So this demon born child, clearly the perfect sacrifice."
AMANDA: Oh, my God. And we thought that, like, monster fucking was a 20th— 21st Century invention.
JULIA: No, we've had succubi and incubi for generations, centuries, millennia.
AMANDA: See? Lay off a book talk. Okay? They're simply—
JULIA: I know.
AMANDA: —respecting their elders and reading the classics.
JULIA: Yes. We've been trying to fuck demons for so long.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Merlin is brought to this tower, but when he arrives, he has a vision that he tells the king about. He says there are two dragons that are sleeping in a pool beneath the tower. One dragon is white, representing the Saxons, and the other is red, representing the Britons. So he tells the king that they are going to awaken and that the white will triumph over the red when they do finally come to battle.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: He then goes into just like a full on trance, essentially, and tells the future of the Britons to the end of time.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: But most importantly, predicts the coming of a great king named Arthur.
AMANDA: This is his debut.
JULIA: This is Merlin's introduction to Arthurian legend. He's a boy, and he goes, "You know what's gonna happen? Some dragons are gonna fight, but a king's gonna come, and he's pretty cool."
AMANDA: What I'm hearing, Julia, is that he was brought in to be a sacrifice, but instead, he
That's so Raven" the future of the United Kingdom.
JULIA: Yes. He is "That's so Ravening" so many things, Amanda. That's his specialty, is "That's so Ravening." He is a prophecy boy.
AMANDA: Raven, Symone, Merlin, the same.
JULIA: I want to get to what happens after that, but before we do, I want to get to another origin story from Merlin. This one is much more Christianity tied, I would say,
AMANDA: Wait, it's more Christian, and he's still like a lovely boy with connections to the other worlds without a mortal father?
JULIA: Oh, just wait, Amanda.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So this is told in a legend called the harrowing of hell.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Already super Christian. So in the story, the demons of hell, annoyed by Christ's interference in the rescuing of souls from hell, decide that they are going to plot the birth of an antichrist.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: Fun.
AMANDA: Story as old as time.
JULIA: So they send a demon to impregnate an innocent Welsh princess.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But the plans to make this baby into the antichrist fail when the Welsh princess, who is a devout Christian, of course.
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: Finds a priest to baptize the baby like the moment he is born, before he can be used by the forces of evil.
AMANDA: There we go. Now, if this was Greek myth, Julia, we would have a lot of detail about the mechanics of, like, when the baby was born, and who caught him, and into what waters, and, like, how to make sure there isn't that little moment. I don't wanna think too much about it, because birth is metal, but damn.
JULIA: You're not, again, too far off the money in that being kind of Greek mythology-esque, because Merlin, the baby Merlin, the moment he is born and baptized, he is portrayed as this child prodigy. He can speak fluently at birth. He is covered with hair immediately, and he is shown with magical powers and the ability to see into the future, which he, then, like, makes the choice, because, you know, Christianity is all about choosing between good and evil. He chooses to use his powers for good rather than evil.
AMANDA: Good on him. I can't tell what's more disturbing. Is it a baby coming out speaking full sentences in multiple languages or a baby with body hair? Body hair is neutral. Body hair is great. I just don't expect it on a newborn.
JULIA: Here's the thing is, like, some babies, they do come out hairy, but like, he was—
AMANDA: I had a full head of hair when I came out.
JULIA: He was like, full man hairy by the time he came out.
AMANDA: Yeah. That's the part where I'm like, "Oh, oh, boy."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. I don't know if he had a beard when he was born, but I like to think he did.
AMANDA: I was picturing, like, chest hair and leg hair, which is just like a lot, a lot—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —to fathom on a baby.
JULIA: So Amanda, regardless of what his origins are, the next common story that features Merlin is he has to organize a prophesied birth.
AMANDA: Oh. How do you do that?
JULIA: Well, it's the birth of King Arthur, because, again, he has this vision that says there will be a boy who pulls a sword out of a stone and will inherit his rightful kingdom.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And he knows that he has to be the one to kind of take Arthur under his wing, because the prophecy says, like, Arthur needs to be tutored. Arthur needs to be, like, taken care of and watched after and everything like that.
AMANDA: Arthur needs a daddy wizard, and it's Merlin.
JULIA: So he helps facilitate Arthur's birth, which is a bit of a weird story. Not anything weirder than what we've heard in mythology, but it is still an awkward story. So, basically, Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, was extremely horny for the Lady Igraine, but she was already married to the Duke of Tintagel. Now, Uther basically tries to seduce her at a feast right in front of her husband.
AMANDA: Not a great idea. Also, when I'm feasting, I want to feast, not be seduced, just for the record.
JULIA: Exactly. Especially not right next to your loved one.
AMANDA: Yeah. It is so obvious and so bad to the point where the Duke leaves the feast in the middle of the event, which is a huge social faux pas. You don't leave before the king leaves.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So Uther is like, "Well, this is clearly not working." And so he goes to Merlin, who at this point is known for his sorcery powers already. Merlin agrees to help him, concocting a magical potion that will disguise Uther as the Duke, but in exchange, he makes a deal with the king, saying that any child born of this union would be handed over to Merlin to raise.
AMANDA: So Merlin assists with this immoral act because it will result in the fulfillment of the prophecy?
JULIA: Correct.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: So Uther uses the potion. He has sex with the Lady Igraine, and Arthur is conceived. Now, when he is born, Arthur is handed over to Merlin, who places him in the household of a Sir Ector, where he can, basically, like Merlin, can keep an eye on him, and where he is essentially established in that household as the bastard son of Ector, in order to hide his identity.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: But one day, after Uther has died and there's a big, like, power situation going on, because now who is going to be the heir? Uther had no other heirs besides this bastard child that was sent away at birth.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Merlin appears in the form of a, like, young peasant boy to Arthur.
AMANDA: I was hoping for a goat. Not gonna lie to you.
JULIA: Not a goat, not a goat. Young peasant boy finds Arthur, who is out hunting in the forest, and reveals to Arthur his true origins.
AMANDA: Oh, Arthur, you're special, baby.
JULIA: Exactly. So he becomes a mentor to Arthur. He tutors him in various subjects. And when he feels that Arthur is ready, he tells Arthur about the sword in the stone which could only be removed by the rightful King of England.
AMANDA: Man, Julia, the script of Monty Python's Holy Grail is just running through my head about swords and stones and lakes with ladies, scimitars, et cetera.
JULIA: Amanda, do you wanna hear something wild that I didn't personally realize? And I probably should have been the, quote-unquote, "expert" of this podcast.
AMANDA: What?
JULIA: The Sword in the Stone and Excalibur, not the same thing.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Different swords.
AMANDA: Oh, well, Excalibur was gifted by a woman in the lake.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Arms clad in the pure shimmering samite, that's— of course, yes.
JULIA: Yes, yes. But different swords.
AMANDA: Wow. I would have gotten that question wrong in trivia if that was asked to me.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: Sometimes they are conflated, and we'll talk a lot— there's a lot of, like, characters and items and moments in Arthurian legend that are conflated for—
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: —various reasons, but one of the ones that surprised me was Sword in the Stone, not Excalibur.
AMANDA: And everybody else out there, Merlin and Arthur, different guys.
JULIA: So Merlin, on Arthur's 15th birthday, takes him to where the sword is in the stone, and Arthur frees the sword from the stone and is crowned king.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, I think 15-year-old should be allowed to vote, because if you're old enough to pull a sword from a stone and be king, you are old enough to vote for your democracy king.
JULIA: Yeah, I agree. I agree. There's also this whole thing where, like, Ector's, quote-unquote, "true born" son is really mean to Arthur throughout his whole childhood.
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: And then he goes to pull the sword out of the stone first, and he fails. And then Arthur pulls it out, and he's like, "Ah-ha."
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Just another, like, thing that is worth mentioning during this period of time, Merlin gives Arthur another prophecy, which is that Mordred, who is the son that Arthur would conceive with his half-sister, Morgause, who is not Morgan or Morgana le Fay. We'll talk about that more. Again, two people who are often conflated in fiction.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: It's one of those, like, accidental incest situations that is very popular in mythology.
AMANDA: Listen, again, people been freaky for a long time, Julia.
JULIA: So he has this child with his ha— or he will have this child with his half-sister named Mordred, and Mordred would one day destroy his father's court at Camelot.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So another thing that like— Merlin's like, "So you're gonna be the true born King of England, and also you're gonna have this son with your half-sister. You won't know she's your half-sister, and then that son is gonna ruin your entire life." And he's like, "I'm 15. What?"
AMANDA: Yeah. Yeah. "What if I'm just celibate forever?"
JULIA: What if I'm just celibate forever? That doesn't happen.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So it's also worth talking about how Merlin and Stonehenge are tied together.
AMANDA: Please.
JULIA: So, obviously, we know that the actual historical origins of Stonehenge are different from what I am about to describe. I just want to say that out loud.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: I don't believe this story is true.
AMANDA: Listen, I've been to Stonehenge Julia. I'll do the research, I'll tell you what I think is true and what's not.
JULIA: So the story goes that the stones of Stonehenge were originally healing stones, which were brought by giants from Africa to Ireland.
AMANDA: You don't believe that?
JULIA: Hmm. Well, now that you say that, I'm feeling a little awkward.
AMANDA: Okay. Okay, keep going.
JULIA: So they were placed on a mountain to form a stone circle, which was referred to as the Giant's Ring or the Giant's Round. After the defeat of the Saxons, the king of the Britons, Aurelius Ambrosius, which is a different fictionalized version from the one that may or may not have inspired Merlin's character, wished to build a memorial for the nobles who were slain during that battle.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So Merlin advises him to use the stones from the Giant's Ring for that memorial, and the king sends Merlin and Uther Pendragon, the father of Arthur, which we've—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —established before, he is the father of Arthur, to go with 15,000 men to bring the stones from Ireland to Britain.
AMANDA: So they're like, "Oh, gotta do a memorial for the fallen soldiers. Let's yeet one out of Ireland." Great.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Thanks—
JULIA: Exactly.
AMANDA: —colonizers.
JULIA: So they managed to defeat the Irish armies that they find there.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Because, obviously, Ireland—
AMANDA: I wonder why.
JULIA: —is not like, "Yeah, sure, you can take them." No, obviously, they weren't like that. So they get there, they defeat the armies. They're unable to move the stones with the men that they've brought.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: However, Merlin's there, and either using his magic or recruiting the giants themselves, he is able to transport the stones to Britain and re-erects the circle there.
AMANDA: I am calling for a black speculative fiction author to write the story of those giants and their travels to and from Ireland. I think that would be rad as hell.
JULIA: That'd be cool. That would be cool. There is also another version of this tale. Basically, the same thing happens, but the stones are brought not for a memorial for the fallen, but instead to form the burial place for Aurelius Ambrosius himself.
AMANDA: Gotcha.
JULIA: So a little fun fact for you.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, there are a lot of stories about Merlin that I want to tell you about, and we're only just getting started talking about them. But before we continue on, why don't we grab our refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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AMANDA: Hey, everybody, it's Amanda. Welcome to the refill. Welcome especially to our newest paying patrons, M., Ferilune, Shannon, and Pleunoir. What beautiful names y'all have. Thank you very much for supporting your human dollars to Spirits Podcast. We could not do this without you, and we greatly appreciate it. Whether you follow us for free on Patreon, because you are maybe spending a little less time on social media these days, or if you are a paying member and you want to get bonuses, like urban legends episodes every single month, director's commentary, printable recipe cards, and more and more, you join the ranks of such distinguished people of our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Hannah, Lily, Matthew, Rikoelike, Scott, and Wil, and our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Join them today at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Now, folks, if you're anything like me, you are already planning for fall. I am so excited. I'm starting to grow some pumpkins, like little ornamental decorative gourds that I hope get really warty and fun, that I'm going to use to decorate. Cannot wait. But I'm also thinking about fall fashions, and I am going to be wearing my Old Wives' Tale Teller corduroy hat. We only have a few left. You can get it now at spiritspodcast.com/merch. Something we're trying is making higher quality items and fewer of them. So we will do like, a small run of some items that we think you're going to like, and then once we sell out, if you like it, we'll make more. And if you don't, we'll try something else. So if you dig it, if you want us to make more hats, great way to show us that you like it is by buying them at spiritspodcast.com/merch. Tons going on at Multitude these days, and one of the things I am proudest of is how many scientists we work with who teach those of us who are not scientists, like myself, what the universe is all about. And I love listening to Tiny Matters. Our award-winning podcast about tiny things, from molecules to microbes that have a big and often surprising impact on society. Sam Jones and Deboki Chakravarti have talked about everything from deadly diseases to forensic toxicology, to the search for extraterrestrial life. Okay? Sam and Deboki embrace the awe and messiness of science and its place as a thing produced by and informed by human beings, history, society, and how all of that impacts our world's future. So go into your podcast app right now and subscribe to Tiny Matters. New episodes every single Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. We are also sponsored this week by bookshop.org, where you can buy books from independent bookstores and have them shipped to you for affordable prices that don't enrich Jeffrey Bezos. And isn't that a beautiful thing? I absolutely love the curations that bookshop also puts on their website. For example, one of them right now is Women in Translation, which I think is so, so cool. Women, writers, and translators, I think it's dope as hell. They have thrillers for summer 2025. They have a beautiful biography of James Baldwin. They have so many great things. And every single time you buy from bookshop, you support independent bookstores, local bookstores all over the country. They've raised $40 million for local bookstores so far, and I love spending my money with bookshop.org. They've also been kind enough to make you a 10% off discount code. So if you go to bookshop.org and use the promo code Spirits, you will get 10% off your purchase.
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JULIA: Amanda, we are back, and the cocktail that I decided to go with for this one is what I would describe as sort of a transformative, fruity but herbal gin cocktail that I think would be appropriate for Merlin.
AMANDA: Absolutely love it. Herbaceous, smells a little bit like moss. I'm into this.
JULIA: So what you have to do for this one? You're gonna muddle a little cucumber and a little mint together with a little lemon juice, add a tiny bit of simple syrup. If you want to flavor it with like a fun herbal concoction, you're more than welcome to. And then a little bit of elderflower liqueur, and then some apple juice, I would say, like, find the cloudiest, unfiltered apple juice possible for this one. And I like apple juice for this because it feels appropriate, not only because apples have this sort of magical connotation in both, like, Celtic folklore and Christianity, but I just think it is sort of a well-represented fruit in a lot of mythology. And of course, we finish this off with a little gin. So it feels a little magical, a little transformative, and very Merlin, in my mind.
AMANDA: I can say, Julia, this is the first cocktail I've ever tried with apple juice in it that isn't just like a spiked cider, and I—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —am here for it.
JULIA: Listen, I think apple juice is a underappreciated cocktail ingredient, especially if you can, like, do a little bit of— I like doing fresh juiced Granny Smith apple—
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: —and creating— do you know about fluffy juice?
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Oh, it's like when you take any sort of, like, fresh juice, and then you blend it, and it aerates the juice—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —pretty substantially, and adds an interesting texture to it.
AMANDA: Huh. I have to try that.
JULIA: So fluffy juice.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: There you go. You learn something new every day. You can transform something as simple as fresh juice into something incredible, like fluffy juice.
AMANDA: With the magic item of a blender, which frankly would be magic if I brought it back to Arthurian times.
JULIA: It definitely would. Only if you could find electricity to run it on, though.
AMANDA: Yeah, shit. That's right.
JULIA: Fuck, fuck. All right, we'll figure something out.
AMANDA: Solar-powered battery, we'll work on this.
JULIA: Yeah, they definitely won't burn you as a witch.
AMANDA: Nope. Or venerate me as a god. It's gonna be one or the other, Julia.
JULIA: Hmm. Could be. Depends on what part of the medieval period we're in.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So, Amanda, Merlin's out there, sort of like tutoring Arthur on how best to become a king, right? Like, he's out here having meetings with him in the woods while his step brother or adopted brother, as being a douche bag to him. But Arthur is not the only student that Merlin takes under his wing. There is another one, and that is Arthur's sister, Morgan.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Now, you might know Morgan, Morgana, Morgan le Fay. She goes by a lot of different names in Arthurian legend. But whereas he was tutoring Arthur in what he would need to become a good ruler, Merlin instead tutored Morgan in his specialty, which is magic.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude.
JULIA: Morgan le Fay is another half-sister in most stories, most Arthurian legends for Arthur. She is said to be the illegitimate daughter of Lady Igraine, again, so that's their connection. She's not—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —a child of Uther. She is a child of Lady Igraine's. Because the canon is interesting, and there's a lot changing, depending on how the story is told. In some stories, she is sent away for an education in sorcery. In some, it's the seven arts, which is just the liberal arts.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: Which I didn't—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: I don't know if you knew that, but—
AMANDA: No. I'll say I went to a seven arts college.
JULIA: Yeah. I was like, "Oh, the seven arts, is that like alchemy?" And then I clicked on. I was like, "Nope, that's just the liberal arts. Got it. Cool." So she is supposedly sent away for this education, and then that is sort of how she comes under the tutelage of Merlin. Though, in some stories, she starts her education at, like, a convent or a nunnery.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And then later on, seeks Merlin out to teach her more. So in some cases, she's getting her education immediately from Merlin. In others, she goes to the nunnery, gets her seven arts education there, and then seeks out Merlin to be like, "I want magic."
AMANDA: Highly relatable. My favorite versions of Morgan are the ones that are, like, insatiably hungry for knowledge, because I really relate to that.
JULIA: Yes. So in one of these sort of foundational stories, she first joins Arthur's Court. So she goes to the nunnery or the convent. She learns some interesting stuff, whether that's magic or not is up for debate. She joins Arthur's Court, and then she ends up leaving because she becomes sort of entangled in this love triangle that's going on between Arthur's wife Guinevere and Guinevere's lover Lancelot.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So she's like, "This is fucked up." She attempts to expose the affair publicly. It sort of creates this essentially lifelong feud between these two women in Arthur's life.
AMANDA: Could have kissed instead.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I just want to encourage everybody out there, when you're thinking about feuding with another woman, think about kissing her instead, with her permission and enthusiastic consent. And that will probably solve a lot of your problems.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Instead they end up hating each other.
AMANDA: Bummer.
JULIA: So Morgan leaves the Court of Camelot with all of her wealth and then seeks out Merlin to learn greater magical powers, or just in general, magical powers.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: In this version of the story, where she goes to Camelot first, and then she seeks Merlin out after, she is supposedly passionately in love with Merlin when she seeks him out. Though—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —in other stories, it is Merlin who is in love with her, and she sort of denies his romantic pursuit of her, which is something that we will see again later in Merlin's downfall, Amanda.
AMANDA: Oh. Oh, shit.
JULIA: So Merlin, eventually, teaches her so much that she becomes, quote-unquote, "the wisest woman in the world."
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: That's hot.
AMANDA: Feel free to call me that anytime you feel.
JULIA: Hmm. You gotta go get tutored by a man who knows a lot of magic, Amanda.
AMANDA: I mean, I would if I could, girl.
JULIA: Yeah. Listen, everyone makes fun of dating magicians, but hey—
AMANDA: You're right. I do make fun of people who date magicians.
JULIA: Just a complete aside, I put on the TV the other day while we were cooking, the Now You See Me movie.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: Which is not very good.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: But at one point, they're doing a trick where— the key to handcuffs, he, like, makes it appear in a can of soda, and they have to open the soda up and then pour it out, and then the key falls out, right?
AMANDA: Oh. Weird.
JULIA: And as I'm watching this, Jake goes, "I know how to do that." I said, "Fucking excuse me?" And he said, "I'll do it right now." And I said, "What?" And then he did it, with a coin. And I said, "What the fuck, man?" He's like, "I've known how to do that for 17 years." And I said, "And I'm just seeing it now? What the fuck, man?"
AMANDA: Julia, when they say that, you know, you have to keep surprising each other in a relationship, I don't think that's what they meant, but they should.
JULIA: Hey, I recommend marrying a person who, at one point in their lives, really wanted to be a magician and learned a lot of up close magic.
AMANDA: Listen, I just— I think it's very important that if your relationship is lacking some je ne sais quoi, some pizzazz, some panache, think about checking out a book on close-up magic from the library, just putting it out there.
JULIA: I know it was a lot of people's pandemic hobby.
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: And hey, it can still be a regular hobby.
AMANDA: It sure can.
JULIA: Anyway, so essentially, Merlin teaches Morgan a ton of stuff. And in some stories, they do become lovers. You know, they initiate in some sex. They have a little sexy time in some stories, not all the stories. But by the end of things, eventually, things do not work out for them. They are not an end game—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —couple, for sure. Eventually, in most tales, Morgan ends up scorning and driving him away by threatening to kill him if he will not leave her alone.
AMANDA: I find that to be very relatable as a woman in the world.
JULIA: Yes. So she said, "Leave me the fuck alone. I learned all that I can learn from you. I'm going away now."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And he essentially goes, "I guess fair enough." So Amanda, this was also interesting to me in doing some research, and the research that researcher Sally provided for me. But Merlin is mentioned as being sort of key to the story of the quest for the Holy Grail.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Which, obviously, is incredibly important in terms of Arthurian legend. The Holy Grail is probably one of the most important items in all of Arthurian legend. It is, for those of you who don't know, most commonly portrayed as Jesus' vessel from the Last Supper, which then Joseph of Arimathea uses to catch Christ's blood at the crucifix.
AMANDA: And sort of, like, the, you know, symbolic thing that all chalice has become during transubstantiation in Catholic ceremonies.
JULIA: Yes. Fun fact, too, like the idea of the Grail being a cup is actually a later invention.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And sometimes it's a bowl, sometimes it's just a stone.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: And so, you know, the image that we have of the Holy Grail being a cup is—
AMANDA: It’s like a communion cup, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah, essentially. And it is interesting that it wasn't explicitly said to be a cup at the first iteration of the story.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: So Merlin being part of this quest for the Holy Grail, particularly is pointed out in this French epic poem that's just called Merlin by Robert de Boron. It's interesting and kind of cool, but also the problem is that epic poem is unfinished, like parts of it are lost.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And so in a lot of these stories that I'm seeing reference with the epic poem of Merlin being the primary example of this, Merlin is supposed to be the initiator of the Grail quest, who orders the construction of the Round Table as this sort of successor item to the previous Grail tables of Jesus and then Joseph.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Right?
AMANDA: And where does Aslan the lion fit in there?
JULIA: Later.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Later. He gets his own table later. He gets killed on that stone table.
AMANDA: Sure does.
JULIA: He's supposed to also, like, have a vision or some sort of prophecy that is supposed to initiate the Grail quest in some early versions of the story. But a lot of these stories, much like the epic poem Merlin, are not complete. They're lost to time, right? And in some versions, it's just that, like, Merlin suggests building the Round Table, knowing that it will eventually lead to the Grail quest, even if he doesn't explicitly say that to the members of Arthur's Court.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But, again, a lot of these other sort of lost versions of the tale really make it seem like he was way more involved than it seems like he actually is by the later versions.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So I would want to talk more about the Grail quest and its reference to Arthurian legend, but the problem is, Merlin doesn't play as big a role in that as I would like.
AMANDA: Well, you know, if folks like it, then maybe we can talk about the Round Table and the Grail quest a little bit more in a miniseries.
JULIA: In many stories, Amanda, especially in the romantic retellings of the Merlin stories. And I would like to talk a little bit later on, perhaps about the different versions legends of the Arthurian legends, and particularly the Romantic period, the French retelling period of Arthurian legend.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: But in these stories, Merlin is a well-known shape shifter. In the epic poem Merlin, which I just described to you before, he appears at various points as a rugged wood cutter, as a shepherd in the Northumberland forests.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: He appears as a handsome man and a beautiful boy. When he first appears to Arthur, when he is old enough, he is disguised as a peasant.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: And then again, later, as a short, old man with a long beard who carries a club and drove a multitude of beasts before him.
AMANDA: Okay, let's go.
JULIA: So he's— oftentimes, like, you see him interacting with nature, but not in, like, a very, like, nature god, shaman sort of way, but—
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: —instead, a like, "I control nature and all of the beasts."
AMANDA: Yeah. This is really— I'm sure people have written a ton about the, like, domination of man over nature, and the, like, imposition of kings, and the call to, like, divine right to rule, and all these kinds of things.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But it seems as if Merlin has a lot of like, you know, air quote, "civilizing power."
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: And not the sort of like old nature, old growth forest, you know, shamans of Briton, B-R-I-T-O-N, that I have come to think about from things like Jerusalem by Jez Butterworth.
JULIA: For the record, every time I've said Briton in this episode, I did mean B-R-I-T-O-N.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Gotcha. Cool. Just making sure everyone knows that. But, Amanda, like this shapeshifting ability and the ability to see into the future, which we've talked about already, are not his only magical abilities. It would be silly if it wasn't.
AMANDA: What else could he do?
JULIA: He could appear and disappear without notice.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: He could control weather, summoning darkness, mists, storms, fire, and smoke.
AMANDA: He said, "Let there be light."
JULIA: He said, "Let there be light." And he could also cast sleep spells.
AMANDA: Very nice.
JULIA: As such many of the later tellings of Merlin sort of portray him as someone with a, quote-unquote, "flawed greatness."
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: He is a character who fails despite being able to see the future and make the changes if needed, right? And in my mind, this is very Odin-esque.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: This is a figure who is obsessed with the knowledge of the future, but is unable to change it despite all of that knowledge and magical ability.
AMANDA: Very true.
JULIA: You see those parallels there, right?
AMANDA: You do. The all father, baby.
JULIA: Now, I have one last Merlin story that I want to tell you about, Amanda, and this one is an interesting one.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: It has to do with a woman who sometimes is called Nimue, sometimes is called Niniane, sometimes it's called Viviane. Sometimes by her title as Lady of the Lake.
AMANDA: Arm clad in the purest shivering samite.
JULIA: Sometimes she is described as being a fairy, but also at least a fairy-like human enchantress.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: She is the keeper of the sword Excalibur, which, as I mentioned before, different sword than the sword that Arthur pulls out of the stone. Sometimes conflated, but different swords.
AMANDA: Right. She hands it to Arthur and says, "Arthur, you are king of the Britons." "King of the what? The who?" "The Britons."
JULIA: Not only that, Amanda, she actually features somewhat heavily in a lot of the lore of the Arthurian legend. So she—
AMANDA: Really thought you're gonna say sexual fantasies. Don't know why, probably because of some things I'm thinking about. Okay, go ahead.
JULIA: So she is the one that supposedly raises Lancelot after the death of his father. She is the one that takes the dying Arthur to the legendary Avalon after his final battle. But she also famously is pursued romantically by Merlin.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now, in most stories, this romantic pursuit is unrequited.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: She does not share in Merlin's affections.
AMANDA: I'm picturing Merlin as a short king, and I don't know why. I think it's just the energy.
JULIA: I did say he appeared short with a long beard at one point, so maybe that's why.
AMANDA: At one point. That's true, that's true. Maybe every day, he transfigures himself to be, like, six-foot-one.
JULIA: It'd be pretty funny. It'd be pretty funny.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So in these stories, she is young and, of course, immensely beautiful.
AMANDA: Par for the course.
JULIA: As you would be if you were a fairy-like human enchantress or just a—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —straight-up fae. So she's immensely beautiful, and then also the fact that she has magical abilities appeals to Merlin as well. He's like, "Oh, this could be my equal, you know? This could be the female incarnate version of me."
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And no, but they— nothing says narcissism like, "I want to fuck the female version of me."
AMANDA: We wouldn't have lore without it, Julia, quite frankly.
JULIA: So his affection for her begins to become an obsession.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And soon he is spending every moment of his day either trying to court her or just seeking her attention.
AMANDA: Relatable. Are we sure Merlin isn't a lesbian?
JULIA: I couldn't possibly say. I don't think he takes the appearance of women too often.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Not that I saw, at least. But hey, I could be wrong. So Nimue soon becomes first annoyed by the attention, but then becomes angry, and then also afraid of what Merlin might do if he doesn't get what he wants.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Relatable.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So she instead pretends that she has also fallen in love with him and wants to share in his love. And so she tells him that she will agree to his proposals of, you know, romance and sex and whatnot, but only if he will teach her all of his secrets and everything he knows about magic.
AMANDA: There we go. He said, "It's happened once with Morgan, it surely couldn't happen again."
JULIA: Couldn't possibly, couldn't possibly. So Merlin, enthralled, agrees to this deal. Now, there are two different outcomes to this story, though, both end, I'm gonna say it poorly for Merlin.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And both involve his magic being used against him.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So in one version, Nimue uses the magic that Merlin teaches her to put Merlin to sleep forever.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: She puts a spell, quote, "on her groin," which, as long as it lasted, prevented anyone from deflowering her and having relations with her.
AMANDA: Sure. Supernatural chastity belt. You gotta love it.
JULIA: Essentially. So when Merlin attempts to seduce her and have sex with her, he instead falls into an infinite sleep, and she then entombs him in either a tree or a cave.
AMANDA: Incredible. I wish this for all harassers, frankly.
JULIA: In another version, she invites Merlin to travel into the woods together so that he might teach her even more of his magic. At this point, he's taught her almost everything, but she's like, "I'm sure there's other stuff for you to teach me."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, at this point, Amanda, also Merlin, with his ability to see the future, knows this is going to end in his demise, but still, because he is so in love with her, so obsessed with her, he goes anyway.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: So she takes Merlin to a cave, which he has told her in their lessons is a place of great power.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: She asks for him to show her its secrets and encourages him to go in first. She's like, "Go on. We'll see what happens."
AMANDA: "You go."
JULIA: As soon as he enters the cave, Nimue casts a spell that seals the mouth of the cave shut.
AMANDA: Bummer.
JULIA: Now, Merlin attempts to open the cave again with his magic, but because the spell that shut the cave was a spell of his own creation, he cannot break it.
AMANDA: That's a good myth, baby.
JULIA: Yeah. I love those loopholes. They're so good.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And so Nimue leaves him in there, and it is said that he remains in that cave somewhere to this day.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: Incredible, right? Incredible.
AMANDA: If I were a little kid growing up hearing this and walking the forests of Great Britain, I would 100% be looking for Merlin in every cave I find.
JULIA: I know. But it's sealed up, Amanda. It's magically sealed. How are you gonna find him?
AMANDA: I don't know. My groin?
JULIA: Your groin? All right, Amanda, so these are, I would say, the highlights of just some of the stories Merlin is involved in when it comes to Arthurian legend. And obviously, we can dig a lot deeper, because there is a ton of content just in Arthuria as a whole. But Merlin, as you can see, has become this huge archetype of the great magician, the wise wizard, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And he differs from other versions, these, like, earlier versions of this type of figure, who tend to be more shaman-like figures, as we talked about before, who are connected and come from the natural world. So instead, Merlin is this type of character who exerts his power to dominate and use nature, rather than it being a part of him, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And this is something that I think I really want to talk a bit more about how Merlin is as a figure, this amalgamation of these magic traditions of a pre-Christian England and Celtic origin, the influence of Christianity on the Britons, and then the Celtic lore that is reimagined for the medieval and romantic periods. But, you know, like, I don't know, Amanda, I just— it feels like we don't have time to talk about all of that. So I guess, I guess we'll just have to do another episode all about the origins of Merlin and how he changed over time in the hands of different writers.
AMANDA: Let's effing go.
JULIA: That's right. It's gonna be a two-parter.
AMANDA: Wee.
JULIA: I was just laying the groundwork for us to talk about the nitty-gritty.
AMANDA: Julia, it's like a spell.
JULIA: I did, I cast a spell on you. You thought this was gonna be just a full Spirits episode. Nah, baby, it's a two-parter.
AMANDA: Lucky for me, I'm just gonna go cast a quick look in the backyard, see if I can pull any swords I have any stones while I'm feeling so lucky.
JULIA: Good luck, Amanda. Good luck out there.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: And stay tuned in a couple of weeks for our future episode. You're looking into the future just like Merlin. It's gonna be Merlin 2: Origins.
AMANDA: And next time you are enchanted by a woman rising out of the lake holding Excalibur, remember—
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: —stay cool.
JULIA: Later, satyrs.
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