The Flatwoods Monster
/We’ve talked about so many American cryptids on the show, but have you heard about the Flatwoods Monster of West Virginia? Settle around the camp fire as we tell a tale of UFO crash landings, Men in Black, and government conspiracy in small town America.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of vomiting, child endangerment, atomic warfare, government/military intervention, and bridge collapses.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. Amanda, we've talked a lot about a lot of different cryptids on this podcast. We've talked about our boy Mothman, we've talked about Bigfoot, we've talked about The Jersey Devil. But there is another popular cryptid that the internet has definitely, I would say, fallen in love with, which I will admit I didn't know a ton about other than sort of recognizing its name and its image. But other than that, I really didn't know anything about it. So when researcher Sally was like, "Hey, you guys haven't talked about the Flatwoods Monster." I was like, "Well, you're right, Sally, we haven't." What's up with that?
AMANDA: Shout out Sally, who helps out on many of the research intensive episodes, and has for several years now. You're doing great, Sally. Thank you so much.
JULIA: We love it. We love it. And so I, in particular, wanted to talk about this one, because it feels to me very, I don't know, summer camp style story. It feels like the kind of story that you would repeat in the woods, around a campfire at night, you know?
AMANDA: I love it. A new Islander has entered the villa into our cryptid canon.
JULIA: A hot new bombshell called the Flatwoods Monster.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: So this is, I will say, Amanda, another West Virginia cryptid.
AMANDA: Make him different in there, Julia, with the union organizing the hollers and the very unique sociopolitical landscape. I love them down there.
JULIA: So we have this new to West Virginia monster, who knows what's going on in West Virginia, besides the things that you just listed, known as the Flatwoods Monster, also known as the Green Monster, also known as the Flatwoods Phantom.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: Let me set the scene. Bren, give me a little summer night campfire, if you will. [music] Perfect. Thank you. It is the evening of September 12th, 1952 in Flatwoods, West Virginia.
AMANDA: A specific date. We love to see it.
JULIA: Flatwoods is a small town with a population less than 300. It is a blip on the map, only standing out because it acted as a railroad stop, perfectly situated between the larger towns of Clarksburg and Richwood. The sun has set on September 12th, the light dwindling on the horizon as the sky grows darker and darker. The days are still fairly long, and a group of boys, Edward May, Freddie May, Neil Nunley, and Tommy Hyer play on the lawn of the Flatwoods Elementary School, soaking in the last remnants of warm summer evenings.
AMANDA: Why can I hear someone's mom being like, "Don't be like that Tommy Hyer over there." Or, "Tommy Hyer, you get yourself back here." You know?
JULIA: None of the other boys called out.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Only Tommy Hyer.
AMANDA: Tommy Hyer's a troublemaker.
JULIA: I feel like Neil Nunley also has a little bit of troublemaker energy. I'm not gonna lie to you.
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: So in that darkening sky, suddenly, the boys see a bright streak of light pass over their heads. They watch as it crosses their path like a shooting star and then fall, crashing into a hillside on what they know to be the property of a local farmer, G. Bailey Fisher.
AMANDA: To have the audacity to go by my first initial, I would love that.
JULIA: The boys are, for a moment, stunned, and then they take off, running towards where they think they saw the light crash to see what had fallen from the sky in their small town. On their way, the two May boys, brothers, stopped at their home, where they informed their mother, Kathleen May as to what they had seen. Kathleen, being an adult and concerned about what the boys might be heading off towards, called on a family friend and National Guardsman, Eugene Lemon, to come along with them.
AMANDA: Julia, it's very unusual that people are making good decisions in the beginning of an urban legend or cryptid tale.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. And, of course, Amanda, they also brought the family dog, Richie.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: So there this group goes, four boys, Edward, Freddie, [4:58] Neil, and Tommy, Kathleen, Eugene Lemon, and of course, Richie the dog go to investigate this crash site.
AMANDA: Every time you say Richie the dog, I get worried about Richie the dog.
JULIA: Everything is fine. Richie the dog is fine. As they approach the hill on G. Bailey Fisher's farm, the sun has now fully set. The hills are barely lit by the stars above, the moon just a sliver of a waning crescent. I Googled this to see what the moon was like that night.
AMANDA: Damn, Julia, leveling the fuck up.
JULIA: But this darkness allows the group, as they approach the hill, to see a pulsing red light ahead of them. Eugene Lemon cautions the group to approach slowly and takes his flashlight, shining it up to the top of the hill. From there, the beam of his light catches a terrifying sight that all would later attest to, a 10-foot tall creature towering above them, its head, they would go on to say, was shaped like a spade, and from the light of the flashlight, it appeared to be wearing a dark, metallic dress or robe. They could see its hands, dark, twisted, and clawed, and even in the darkness, its eyes or what they assumed to be its eyes, glowed with an eerie orange light.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: And its feet, well, they were hidden by the metallic dress or robe, but there was clearly space between the bottom of that dress and the ground below. In fact, the witnesses would claim it was levitating off the ground.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: the air was thick around it, not just with fear that our party of adventurers were feeling, but with what they would later describe as a strange, sickening mist that hung in the air around the creature.
AMANDA: Julia, that's what I hope I give whenever I go to a business conference. I want somebody to see me across the room and be like, "That's sickening mist. I'm like a little bit intrigued and a little bit repelled, and I want to give you money."
JULIA: A wild choice, but okay. I'm into it. The creature stood like that, or rather, hung in the air before them for a moment. And then suddenly, the creature hissed and swooped towards them, gliding menacingly towards the ground they stood on. And with that, they turned and fled.
AMANDA: Yeah. Seeing that creature, I might be frozen. The creature moving, I'm out of there.
JULIA: May and Lemon took the children home, then reported the incident to the local authorities, who would go on to search the area that night, but claimed that they found nothing. That was not the end for these witnesses, however, Amanda. Several of the group, reported that in the days after they had seen the creature, they suffered from throat irritation, nausea, and even vomiting that persisted for days.
AMANDA: Wow. That does speak to some chemical type situation.
JULIA: Yeah. So when they sought treatment and relayed the story to their doctors, their symptoms were dismissed as side effects of hysteria and shock.
AMANDA: Oh, boy, 1952 has called.
JULIA: But, Amanda, keep in mind, try to remember this strange, sickening mist for later. We'll see. We'll see. But Amanda, much like with our boy Mothman, it is not just the one sighting that has us still talking about the Flatwoods Monster. So not long before Kathleen May, Eugene Lemon, and their gaggle of boys saw the creature on the hillside, a woman named Mrs. Audra Harper was walking through the woods near her home in the town of Heaters, West Virginia.
AMANDA: How geographically close are these two towns?
JULIA: Well, Heaters is worth mentioning because it is five miles north from the town of Flatwoods.
AMANDA: I love when I anticipate the outline, and you anticipate my questions.
JULIA: Exactly. So she and her friend were walking to a nearby store in town, and the road that they would normally take to get into town was made too muddy and rutted from a recent storm and too many cars driving through it. So the two decided to take a shortcut through the forest because it would be easier for them to walk and it would also make their trip a lot quicker. So as they were walking through the woods about half a mile into their journey, they saw similar to what the boys saw outside of the school, a great ball of fire making contact with a hill nearby.
AMANDA: Oh, my God.
JULIA: Harper originally dismissed the site, thinking that it was, perhaps, a neighbor who had lit a fire as part of a fox hunt. I think specifically in her testimony, she called it fox chasing, which is not a thing that I'm super familiar with, but something that she— obviously, was enough that she dismissed it originally as being that. So when she looked again, however, she was shocked by what she saw, because suddenly the fire was gone, pretty much as soon as it had been spotted, as quickly as it had been spotted. And in its place was a tall, dark silhouette that she described as man-shaped.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: She and her friend were suddenly terrified, and so ran deeper into the forest, hiding among the rocks and boulders of the area. Hiding there until they looked again and the being was gone.
AMANDA: Jeez.
JULIA: So the exact date of when Audra Harper saw this creature is not exactly certain. I don't think that she really noted the date in her testimony, but it does take place before the September 12th where Kathleen May, the gaggle of boys, and Eugene Lemon and, of course, Richie the dog, I keep forgetting to mention Richie the dog, saw the Flatwoods Monster.
AMANDA: Okay, this is wild. I did not expect separate accounts corroborating so many details.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, we fast forward to September 13th, the day after the boys and Eugene and Kathleen had spotted the creature and Richie the dog. I keep forgetting Richie the dog.
AMANDA: That's hardly fast forward, Julia. That's just going to sleep.
JULIA: That's the next day. So this time, we go to Strange Creek, West Virginia, which is aptly named, and about 20 miles south of Flatwoods.
AMANDA: Wait, this isn't what made it strange? Something else made it strange?
JULIA: Yeah, it was already called Strange Creek.
AMANDA: You know your creek is strange when multiple strange things have happened in it.
JULIA: George and Edith Snitowski were driving in their car with their 18-month old baby between Clay and Braxton counties. You're gonna wanna remember Braxton County. It becomes important later.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: They are driving around Route 4, returning from a family outing that night, when suddenly their car dies. Now, if you've never been on a country road in the middle of the night, it can be scary, I would say.
AMANDA: Dangerous, too.
JULIA: Often on these county routes, there's no street lights. There's no lights besides the stars above. And again, this is the day after the original reported sighting, so there is even less of a moon in the sky, because it was a waning crescent. George gets out of his car, attempts to get it restarted, but no matter what he tries, he just cannot get this car started again. He does not know what's going on.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And as he's trying to figure out exactly what is wrong with his car, he starts to smell something. It's something foul, like rotting eggs, like sulfur. And then in the car, the baby begins to cry.
AMANDA: Okay, babies cry for a lot of reasons, but right now, that's very sinister. Oh, no. Oh, no.
JULIA: Right now, that's very scary, just as suddenly as it appeared for Audra Harper, and as suddenly as it had scared off our first witnesses, the creature appeared. A strange bright light suddenly filled the area, and when their eyes adjusted, the Snitowskis saw a 10-foot tall creature hovering in front of their car. Amanda shaking her head no.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Amanda hates this.
AMANDA: No. Uh-uh. We're out. I'm out. I'm moving.
JULIA: They described it very similarly to the way that the others did, tall and hovering with clawed hands and a metallic dress or robe. However, there was one large difference that made the Snitowskis' experience quite different than the others. According to the Snitowskis, it did not have that sort of odd spade-shaped head. Or rather, if we take into the Snitowski's account, at face value, a spade-shaped hood, because what they claimed was that the head of this creature was actually reptilian and bony, and that the clawed hands seen at a distance by the other witnesses were, in fact, lizard-like claws.
AMANDA: Jesus.
JULIA: They claimed that it dragged its lizard-like claw across the hood of their car before it drifted, levitating into the woods.
AMANDA: I am scared. That is wild, Julia.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Wow. So the Snitowskis stared, they watched it go. And when the Flatwoods monster was out of sight, suddenly, the car restarted, and the family drove away as quickly as they could.
AMANDA: No fucking shit. Oh, my God. And I'm sure that Mrs. Snitowski was just like hanging out with the baby, like playing with them, coon with them. And so it's not like the baby was, you know, in a distressing situation, like for the baby to start crying out of nowhere, and then this happened. Oh, baby.
JULIA: Yeah. He was upset about something, and then all of a sudden, there's a creature.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. And as you point out, you know, babies cry for all sorts of reasons. The dark is scary for babies. Terrible smell maybe made the baby cry, because we do know, according to George, there was a terrible sulfur-like smell.
AMANDA: Or maybe babies hearing is a little bit different to adult hearing, and maybe there was some other worldly whine happening here.
JULIA: May have.
AMANDA: Sorry, a whine with an H. Otherworldly wine with an I, I'm very in tune.
JULIA: Hmm. I don't hate that. That'd be delicious.
AMANDA: Right?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But, Julia, I would be taken into the Fay Bauer [15:55] by any pitcher of wine. Just a decanter there, I'm like, "Great. I forget all my lessons."
JULIA: We already know that's true. So, Amanda, despite these original instances in 1952, the Flatwoods Monster has made a pretty significant impact in the area, as well as the larger American cryptid scene. And I want to talk a little bit about that legacy and how it impacted not only American cryptids, but also the UFO conspiracy movement of the Cold War era.
AMANDA: No way.
JULIA: We have to go grab our refill first.
AMANDA: Let's go.
[theme]
AMANDA: Hey, everybody, it's Amanda, and welcome to the refill. Now, I have been really reflecting a lot recently about my life and what it is that I get to spend my days doing. And the fact that I get to meet up with my best friend every single week and talk about mythology, folklore, what it means to us, what it means to be human beings, what we're looking for in life, it's such a gift. And I genuinely, sincerely really wanna thank every single one of you who pledges us money each week on Patreon. Every single pledge counts. Every single dollar counts. You are the reason why we can keep making the show. And so I know I always thank people. Julia and I always thank the new patrons, the supporting producer-level patrons, the legend patrons. But genuinely, if you can give us a $1 a month, $5 a month, it genuinely makes a difference. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you to our newest patron, Oblyvion, who joined at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, where you, too, could join us as a supporting member. You could also become a supporting producer-level patron. One of the rewards with which is you get your name read every single week. And those fine folks are Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Hannah, Lily, Matthew, Rikoelike, Scott, and Wil. And if you really wanted to, folks, you could be a legend-level patron, that's right. You could join Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Do that at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, where you can get a bonus Urban Legends episode every month, ad-free episodes, recipe cards, director's commentary for every episode, tarot readings at every equinox and solstice, and more, and more. patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Remember, folks, we now have voicemail line, so if you want to hear your voice on Spirits, you can leave us a voicemail. The number is 617-420, nice, 2344. That's also in the episode description of every dang episode. Or if you're outside the US, you can just take a voice note on your phone and email it to spiritspodcast@gmail.com. Anything from 30 seconds or a quick prompt or a question, up to a story of three or four or five minutes, we want to hear yours. It has been so much fun to see these voicemails rolling in. You'll be hearing more from your fellow ConSpiriters soon. Lots of stuff happening at Multitude, the podcast collective of which Spirits is a founding member, including our fellow founding member show, Join the Party, which is nice and chunkily into a brand-new campaign. It's an actual play podcast with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators who make each other laugh each week. Our GM and players take you through what it's like to tell a story through a TTRPG, whether you are an expert who has done this for years, or someone who has never touched a role-playing game before, or even enjoyed actual play content. We can help you get into it. Now, the current campaign, I get to play a very moody and powerful teenager, which is incredibly fun. Her name's Rowan Rosner. I love her. Julia's character, I am so obsessed with, Shelley Craft. Yes, that is a Mary Shelley reference. Yes, there's a lot of Frankenstein stuff. Yes, you should listen to Join the Party. Go on over to jointhepartypod.com to start our podcast, or look up Join the Party in your podcast app and start from our current season. You're gonna love it. We are sponsored this week by bookshop.org. My very favorite place to buy books. I just used bookshop to pre-order a signed copy of a book that's coming out in a few months' time. Cool thing that they do as well. And I know Julia talked last week about the Anti-Prime Day sale, but you know what? It is a wonderful month to support independent bookshops. So if you go to bookshop.org, you can use the promo code Spirits to get 10% off your order, and that code also kicks back a little bit of money to us. So you are supporting the show, you're supporting independent bookstores, and you're supporting books and authors, and writers, and everything beautiful about this world. So go to bookshop.org, use promo code Spirits, and enjoy.
[theme]
JULIA: Amanda, we are back. And because of the fiery descriptions of this creature, I wanted to do a spicy cocktail.
AMANDA: Hooray.
JULIA: I think that a lot of people have at least tried a classic now— I call it a classic. It is kind of a classic now. I feel like most bars would have a spicy margarita. But I also— hey, you at home, I want to help you diversify your spicy cocktail palettes.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: Summer is the perfect time to diversify your spicy cocktail palette, and so this summer, I want you to try the Firecracker.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: So this is essentially a classic Daiquiri with a little kick from cayenne pepper.
AMANDA: Delish.
JULIA: Aged rum, orange liqueur, lots of fresh lime juice, because that's really what makes a Daiquiri. A Daiquiri is, like, the quality of the rum that you're using, and also the tons of lime juice in it. This one also has, like I said, a pinch of cayenne pepper, and also, I think, which kind of rounds it all out and sort of balances out the cayenne pepper and the tartness of the fresh lime juice, a little bit of muddled watermelon.
AMANDA: Hey, Julia, that sounds so good.
JULIA: Yeah. If you strain that out, because I think sometimes when you order a watermelon drink, it's too watermelon pulpy, for lack of a better phrase.
AMANDA: Yeah. It can taste filled with stuff in a way that I'm not always looking for in a drink.
JULIA: Yes, but if you double strain this cocktail, you miss out on that sort of pulpy flavor, so you just kind of get the pure watermelon, as opposed to sort of a thick cocktail as it were.
AMANDA: Julia, you know the TikTok trend that's going around right now, originated by yearningyardies? Which is like, "My boyfriend has his plants. You better be nice to him." And then, like, the partner switches to the back, and then the second person shows off, like, their plants. And people are doing like their fruit, their cats, their dogs, whatever.
JULIA: Yes. I've seen something like that. I haven't seen the plant one specifically, that was the original, but I know what you're talking about, for sure.
AMANDA: I feel like that, with you, about cocktails. Like, "My best friend made some clarified rum punch, and you better be nice to her." And then I stand back and just, like, nod as you show off. You know, your double straining and your filtering.
JULIA: That's really nice. I like that a lot.
AMANDA: You're welcome.
JULIA: Thank you. Ooh, like a clarified watermelon margarita.
AMANDA: I'll be right there.
JULIA: Would be really good. Okay. All right, I had to think about that. That might be a thing that I'm going to do in the near future. Hell yeah.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Thank you, Amanda. Okay, back to the Flatwoods Monster. We're spicy, we're on fire. We're hitting farmers hillsides in West Virginia.
AMANDA: We have orange liqueur in our drink, and you know, I noticed that you themed it to the Flatwoods Monster's eyes.
JULIA: I did. I did. All right, so here's the thing, Amanda, there's been no credible sightings of the Flatwoods Monster since 1952.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: When this all happened, as I mentioned, it was reported to the authorities, Eugene Lemon and Kathleen May said, "Hey, we saw something weird in the woods. Can you go check this out?" So first the local police, of course, get involved, but then also the US military.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Now, the US Air Force in particular is the one that investigates this, and there's been several reports that have indicated that the Air Force has been investigating UFOs and other sightings related to them since 1947.
AMANDA: Makes sense. I mean, they're literally definitionally flying objects, and the Air Force is concerned with that.
JULIA: Yes. So this is interesting too, because there are a couple of, like, little conspiracy theories here and there, but we do have, like, actual records as to that have been declassified, as to what the US Air Force was investigating.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: However, there are still these conspiracy theories saying like, "Yeah, of course, the US Air Force was involved." And part of the reason why all of this sort of weird smog stuff was happening, where the witnesses were impacted by these terrible smells that caused them illness and stuff like that. Those symptoms coincide with the use of mustard gas.
AMANDA: Yeah, long history of environmental poisoning by the military in West Virginia.
JULIA: Yes. We— so, while that is a theory, and I think it is probably a fairly credible theory, there is no actual proof or evidence or declassified documents that tell us that the Air Force was actually involved in the thing that crashed.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: As opposed to the actual, credible documents that have been declassified that tell us, "Hey, the Air Force was investigating UFOs, though."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Makes sense to me.
JULIA: Yes. So the explanation that they end up giving Kathleen May and Eugene Lemon, that they also wrote down in their documents was that there were several bright but common meteors that supposedly streaked through across the eastern US the evening that the boys saw something fiery cross the sky above them. They have sightings that reached all the way to Baltimore, for example.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Which somewhat explainable. Sure. Doesn't explain the boys thinking that they saw something make impact with the Earth.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But it does explain the light that they claimed to have seen cross the sky. And, you know, nowadays, we're very good at tracking meteor showers and stuff like that, so maybe we just weren't as aware of them in the 1950s, I'd say, potentially.
AMANDA: Well, we didn't have, like, all kinds of satellites in space. We hadn't yet been to the moon, so I definitely understand that there could be an unexpected meteor or something that, like, NASA is tracking, that they don't necessarily communicate to, like, public safety or Weather officials.
JULIA: Sure. Exactly. So that is a somewhat plausible explanation that the Air Force gives the public, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Now, the military's official statement about the monster, that three parties of witnesses saw, they claimed their explanation was, "Oh, probably an owl."
AMANDA: "Yeah, yeah. The 10-foot owl that I commonly see wearing a metallic dress. You're right, you're right."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, the 10-foot tall owl, glowing eyes, metallic dress. Makes a lot of sense.
AMANDA: That— I mean, that does describe the Pokémon Decidueye, but that wasn't invented yet, and it's not real, so two problems.
JULIA: That's a Pokémon.
AMANDA: What if— well, Julia, what if— though, what if you called the military— how do you call the military? I have a lot of questions. What if, in theory, you called the military on a— an unexplained phenomena? And then they came back and said, "Ma'am, that's a Pokémon."
JULIA: First off, my response would be, "Pokémon are real? Pokémon are real?"
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. I'd very excited.
JULIA: And they would be like, "No, I think you just saw what you thought was a monster, but your brain was just pushing in front of you a Pokémon image, and then—"
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "—it was really just an owl.
AMANDA: Like, when people all saw the, like, little green men cartoons and, you know, comics, and then suddenly, everyone's— every kid is seeing that out in the world. Millennial version of that is Pokémon.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, great point. Let's talk about that.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: Because let's keep in mind what this time period is. This is the beginning of the Cold War era. There is definitely, I would say, a certain amount of paranoia that the American public was feeling at the time. This was a period that was marred with discussion of atomic warfare in the public eye pretty constantly. What we're talking about right now, just three years before the first sighting of the Flatwoods Monster, the Soviet Union had successfully tested an atomic bomb.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Technology for Americans was simultaneously changing life for the better, but also threatening to destroy the world as they knew it.
AMANDA: That's America, baby.
JULIA: At that time ,you're seeing the media sort of reflect that. Media during this time period is full of mad scientists. It's full of UFOs. It is full of threats of aliens from beyond the stars. And this isn't even just like early science fiction, like read in pulp novels or comic books targeting young boys, like you mentioned Amanda. Even in Life Magazine, which was, I would say, probably the most popular publication in the nation at the time.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Was publishing articles about the, quote-unquote, "credible" stories regarding UFOs and flying saucers.
AMANDA: Shit, man. That makes a difference. That's not what I thought it was like, but that makes a lot of sense.
JULIA: So stories like the title of this Life magazine article, "Have we visitors from space?"
AMANDA: Shit.
JULIA: Where they stated, quote, "The Air Force is now ready to concede that many saucer and fireball sightings still defy explanation. Life offers some scientific evidence that there is a real case for interplanetary saucers."
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So imagine— I can't even, like, say what the, like, current sort of comparison to that would be, right?
AMANDA: I can, Julia.
JULIA: Okay, go ahead.
AMANDA: It's the cloud. It's the idea of, like, cloud computing, which does exist, and devices that can listen for verbal cues and do exist. And then the speculation about, like, "Oh, our companies listening to us without us guessing about it." It's like— my mom's like, "When I take a photo, is it in the Cloud already? Do I have to, like, put it there?" Like there's just enough grounding in what does exist, that someone being like, "Oh, yeah. Well, one day we're gonna, like, you know, get a blood transfer from the Cloud," or, like, "One day, the cloud will know when we die." I'm like, "It's not totally wrong. Like, there is a path between here and there." I don't know about the conspiracy angle of it, but that's where my mind went.
JULIA: I love this, and I love where your brain is going. I meant more— I can't think of a comparison of a reputable publication that everyone pretty much reads, saying, "Hey, the Air Force is basically saying that they don't know what's going on. And also we're coming to the conclusion that that means flying saucers and interplanetary transport is real."
AMANDA: Maybe Y2k, but that wasn't even as big as you're identifying. So, yeah, it seems pretty unique.
JULIA: I think it's also just because, particularly for our generation and for the generations younger than us, our news comes from so many different sources.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And there is very much less of a mainstream media—
AMANDA: Yeah, there's no Walter Cronkite being like, "This is what happened in the election tonight." And you're like, "Okay, great." No. Every candidate and President and person and party in court is saying something different.
JULIA: Yes. And there's no, like, real mainstream media hubs, the way I— you were describing with Walter Cronkite, for example.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So life would then go on to publish several, what they considered, credible sources, including accounts from Air Force pilots.
AMANDA: Wow. And there used to be editors at these places, Julia. I'm sure they had, like, an entire team of editors, fact checkers, lawyers, people validating the claims that they're making. Like they're not posting bullshit in a tabloid. They're saying something with the full backing of that name, which really—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —fucking mattered, especially in the '50s.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. And this article, Amanda, that I am quoting from the, "Have we visitors from space?" article, came out a mere five months before Edward and Freddie May, along with their friends, saw something fiery fly across the sky.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: From there, with Life magazine saying, "Hey, we have credible information that the US government and the US military knows at least something about these UFOs and flying saucers." The US military also, and I touched on this a little bit, had something called Project Blue Book.
AMANDA: Always bad. Project blank is gonna put the little hairs on my arms up every time.
JULIA: Any code name Amanda is not for.
AMANDA: I'm all for code names, but project blank specifically gives me terrible vibes.
JULIA: Yeah, it's bad because, you know, most military projects are not great.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Word, Julia. Not, like, good for society.
JULIA: Usually not, usually not. Project Blue Book was the code name for the systemic study of unidentified flying objects by the Air Force from March 1952 to December 17th, 1969.
AMANDA: That's a long time. Damn.
JULIA: It was headquartered at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, where it was originally directed by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt.
AMANDA: Great name.
JULIA: Now, this was not the first time that the US military had created projects investigating UFOs. Project Sign had been in 1947 and then Project Grudge was in 1949.
AMANDA: Sorry, Grudge?
JULIA: Grudge.
AMANDA: Wow. They just said it.
JULIA: They just said it.
AMANDA: They said, "Someone's coming from outer space and we're gonna fuck them up."
JULIA: Project Blue Book had two very specific goals. One was to determine if UFOs were a threat to national security.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And the other was to scientifically analyze data related to UFO sightings.
AMANDA: Yes,
JULIA: And there were a lot of sightings that were analyzed and filed by Project Blue Book over the course of the 17 years that it was active. All of that research was then condensed into the Condon Report, which essentially concluded that the study of UFOs wasn't going to yield any important or major scientific discoveries.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And therefore, the project was shut down.
AMANDA: Julia, I bet that in some forums, there is just, like, a widely accepted initialism, where you could just say, "Oh, well, the CR, the Condon Report. Like, of course." Like, it's the kind of thing that people must have as a touchstone in their discussions of these things.
JULIA: Yeah, for sure. So here are the specific conclusions that the Air Force came to in the Congdon Report. So number one, "No UFO reported, investigated or evaluated by the Air Force was ever an indication of threat to our national security."
AMANDA: Good.
JULIA: "Two, there was no evidence submitted to or discovered by the Air Force that sightings categorized as, quote-unquote, 'unidentified' represented technological developments or principles beyond the range of modern scientific knowledge. And number three, there was no evidence indicating that sightings categorized as quote, unquote-'unidentified' were extraterrestrial vehicles."
AMANDA: Pretty sure. That's pretty definitive.
JULIA: Yeah. So basically, they're saying all of these UFO sightings, one, not a threat to national security. Two, not past our understanding of modern scientific knowledge. And three, I don't think any of them are extraterrestrial.
AMANDA: I appreciate that. I think anything broken down into a numbered list that builds on itself, fundamentally convinces me.
JULIA: The Condon Report was released to the public. That's why we have this information available to us. But this did not stop people from thinking that the Flatwoods Monster was an extraterrestrial.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, part of the reason that that story persisted and that people are still talking about this monster to this day is because of a man named Gray Barker.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now, that name might sound familiar, Amanda, because he was also responsible for bringing our good boy, Mothman, to the mainstream.
AMANDA: Julia, as I call him, the Badonkadonk Father.
JULIA: Father of the butt.
AMANDA: He is the reason why we know about Mothman, and knowing about Mothman is to know Mothman's gigantic ass.
JULIA: But Amanda, before the Mothman sightings and the 1967 collapse of the Silver Bridge in Point Pleasant, he was interested in another story that helped him get his start as a, quote-unquote, "expert" of extraterrestrials and UFOs, and that was the Flatwoods Monster.
AMANDA: Let's go. It's on brand for you, Gray.
JULIA: So Barker was a writer, a Braxton County native, which you might recognize—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —Braxton County from the story about the Snitowskis.
AMANDA: I sure do.
JULIA: This man loved to write about a UFO conspiracy theory. And in particular, he is famous for sort of introducing the UFO conspiracy theory, the mythos of the men in black. Not the Will Smith movie.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: But instead, what that is based off of.
AMANDA: Wow. No kidding. This guy's responsible for a lot.
JULIA: I don't think he is the original inventor of the Men in Black, but he's definitely the one that popularized it for the UFO conspiracy theory sort of community, right?
AMANDA: Julia, right now, I'm reading the like 1,000-page biography of Mark Twain by Ron Chernow of Hamilton fame, the Hamilton daddy. Mark Twain was a guy who did a lot of things, but mostly he popularized stuff.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And it doesn't matter if you originated it. It just matters if you popularize it.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly.
AMANDA: Is a sentence that someone who's been podcasting for 10 years is— it's very— it's about right.
JULIA: Yep, that's accurate. That's accurate. So the reason that Barker even associates these men in black with the Flatwoods Monster is that he supposedly hears this story about two Air Force investigators who had shown up in the town of Flatwoods and didn't identify themselves as members of the US military, but instead posed as magazine writers investigating the story.
AMANDA: Oh, baby. Everyone knows a magazine writer would never wear a suit.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: No, I forgot this was the '50s. They all wore suits. Fuck!
JULIA: Every man wore a suit constantly.
AMANDA: Fuck!
JULIA: They went to sleep in suits.
AMANDA: Aah!
JULIA: So Barker hears about this, and he writes up the story and submits it to a publication called Fate Magazine, which is a publication that is devoted to paranormal phenomena.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Also, still around to this day.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Still writing about UFOs and paranormal investigation and all kinds of stuff.
AMANDA: Shout out Fate.
JULIA: So the article titled, "The Monster and the Saucer" is a hit immediately.
AMANDA: Julia, "The Monster and the Saucer." I love it.
JULIA: "The Monster and the Saucer." So Barker begins to write regularly about UFOs for various publications. Some of it ends up being fiction, but most of it is supposedly non-fiction. And in 1956, he publishes his most well-known book, which is They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers, which is where he sort of solidifies his men in black mythos, and the fact that they are supposedly actively attempting to cover up the existence of flying saucers.
AMANDA: They Knew Too Much is an incredible title.
JULIA: They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers. Damn.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So good. He also later publishes a book that is specifically just about the men in black, and I think it's titled like The Men in Black, but—
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: —relevant to our conversation here about the Flatwoods Monster.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: It would be later, I can't find out how accurate this claim is actually, that it was reported that Mrs. May, Kathleen May, from our first investigation, our first story—
AMANDA: Julia, I'm so glad you brought her up, because I have been thinking about if she was having an affair with the National Guardsman, or maybe she was single, I don't know.
JULIA: With Eugene?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I don't know. I don't know.
AMANDA: May— I mean, listen, if she— something scary is happening to your kid, who do you call? That matters, that matters. I'm picking up on vibes.
JULIA: Her husband, never mentioned in any of the—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —stories that I did.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Maybe he— Amanda, maybe he was killed during World War II. We don't know.
AMANDA: Yeah, but then maybe she found second love with Eugene, the National Guardsman.
JULIA: Maybe, maybe.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Who knows? So Mrs. May, supposedly, reported the incident on the Hill on September 12th, and the US government had sent men, which Barker and other folks later referred to as the Men in Black.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: These men came to their house, the May household, to investigate and also to take their witness statements, their witness reports. There's also this little added detail here. Again, I can't find— it's not in the original testimony that Kathleen May put out, or Eugene, or even like the sons in later recountings, but there's this detail where Kathleen May supposedly got some oil on her dress from either the creature or its ship, even though we don't get a lot of information about the, quote-unquote, "ship." And that the government officials, supposedly, took the dress in order to analyze the substance, saying that they would return it, and then apparently, they never did.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: So that's, like, an interesting little tidbit. It's not from the original story. It seems to have been tacked on later, either like in retellings of it or as a detail to make it seem like the government is being more nefarious than—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —they actually were.
AMANDA: It's a good detail. Even if it's made up, respect.
JULIA: For the most part, though, Amanda, this is sort of where our story ends. Obviously, the Flatwoods Monster adds a lot of detail and nuance to the UFO sightings of the 1950s and '60s. It really starts this sort of—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —UFO conspiracy theory movement, especially in the United States. And to a certain extent, it seems as though Flatwoods and Braxton County and the surrounding area have really embraced the legacy of their monster.
AMANDA: As they should. Good.
JULIA: There is a ice cream shop in Flatwoods called The Spot, which has a painted sort of iteration or mural of the monster that is often used as a photo op spot.
AMANDA: Hell yes.
JULIA: There are five huge chairs that have been built and painted in the monster's image, which can be found all throughout Braxton County.
AMANDA: Julia, I'm hearing a photo opportunity.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. And of course, there is the Flatwoods Monster Museum.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Though, technically, it is in Sutton, West Virginia, rather than in the town of Flatwoods.
AMANDA: I genuinely would love to go.
JULIA: There's also— Amanda, if you actually went to visit Flatwoods, if we eventually decided to go visit Flatwoods, you would see the Flatwoods Monster lanterns. I have to pull up a picture for you so you can see it.
AMANDA: Oh, baby, those are scary.
JULIA: I want one of these so bad.
AMANDA: Oh, you can buy them?
JULIA: So, the original story behind this is they were originally produced by the town's Junior Chamber of Commerce in order to help fund the county's first kindergarten program.
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: So, basically, they wanted to take advantage of the fame that came from having a cool, famous monster that was getting national attention, both in writing and through, like, documentaries and everything like that. And also the travelers that were coming to the area as a result, right?
AMANDA: Sorry, Julia, I was distracted by how badly I want to have a drink out of this ceramic lantern. I— it's giving Tiki mug.
JULIA: It's almost like a Tiki mug. I feel you.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So these lanterns were sold at special events in the area originally and as well as at roadside stands during high traffic times of year. So while the Junior Chamber of Commerce stopped producing them in the 1970s, one of their leaders, a man named John Gibson wanted to really keep the story of the Flatwoods Monster alive. One, because it was really good for the community.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It was bringing in a solid economic boost to their community. And also because he was friends, childhood friends with Neil Nunley.
AMANDA: Neil Nunley. We have this. He's back.
JULIA: He's back. So Gibson really wanted to keep this alive, and so he kept the molds of the original lanterns and kept them in production. Nowadays, they're made by a artisan from Marietta, Ohio.
AMANDA: Julia, I have breaking news for you. Darlene's Ceramics has been sold. The new owners are currently moving everything out. They will reopen at a later date in the Ripley area. Darlene is retiring to spend time with family and thanks you for all your love and support. I think we have to go to West Virginia soon, because I'm gonna need these.
JULIA: I'm sure that, John Gibson, I think he's still alive, is going—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —to find someone else to make his items, his lanterns.
AMANDA: I mean, congrats to Darlene, but yes, I hope they keep making this, because I need one, maybe two.
JULIA: So Gibson has continued to contribute to various documentaries and investigations into the creature. I think realizing more than anything, that, again, this story helps keep Braxton County's economy going stronger than it otherwise would be, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So you can purchase one. If you want, there's two locations that you can buy them from, apparently, one is the Flatwoods Monster Museum, and another one is at a Exxon station in Flatwoods.
AMANDA: Okay. If we have any listeners who are near Flatwoods, please DM me or email Spirits. I will absolutely cover the cost and the shipping. Julia and I need these. However, Julia, we may also simply need to go to Flatwoods, because this sounds incredible, and we could touch the butt. We could touch the butt.
JULIA: I mean, that's what we've been saying. We would love to go to the Mothman festival. And I'm sure these are within driving distance. I don't know how far of a drive, but probably within driving distance.
AMANDA: Have car, will travel.
JULIA: Literally, this was a roadside—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —sort of sale at one point, and it still, technically is, because they sell them at the Exxon. But hey—
AMANDA: If you're listening and you're from the Mothman festival, get in touch. I'm going to send some emails. I think it's about time to touch that butt, Julia.
JULIA: I gotta touch the butt. So I will finish by saying this, if you're interested in visiting Flatwoods to kind of commemorate the Flatwoods Monster, definitely check out the Flatwoods Museum. Check out the various locales that are associated with the Flatwoods Monster, like The Spot and the various chairs throughout Braxton County. If you're interested in visiting the location of the actual original sighting, please keep in mind that it is private property, and the owners are not interested in giving you a tour.
AMANDA: So don't visit it and instead, look at those cute chairs.
JULIA: Exactly. But I think it is very interesting how these sightings, from just a few short days in 1952, have been kept alive by its community for so long. And I think that's the thing about cryptids, right? They really can keep us so interested in their stories, even decades and decades after the fact.
AMANDA: And interested in your neighbors and their experiences and what happens in your hometown, what makes the place that you're from different and unique. And I love that.
JULIA: And I love that, too. So next time you're driving along a country road in the dark and your car suddenly dies, remember—
AMANDA: Put on your hazards and stay creepy.
JULIA: Stay cool. Later, satyrs.
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