Riddling Spirits
/Riddles have captivated fiction and mythology alike for thousands of years! From sphinxes and gods to kings and princesses, we’ve been posing riddles to each other for longer than we can remember. But why? That’s the real riddle we’re looking to solve this episode!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of genitalia, religious persecution, death, animal attacks, suicide, decapitation, insects, hanging, and torture.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive to mythology, legends and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And Amanda, when first I appear, I seem mysterious, but when explained, I'm nothing serious. What am I?
AMANDA: Well, shit, you're a surprise during my routine. Appear nothing serious, and then what?
JULIA: When first I appear, I seem mysterious, but when explained, I'm nothing serious, what am I?
AMANDA: A fog?
JULIA: Interesting. No.
AMANDA: Is it— is it a riddle?
JULIA: It is a riddle!
AMANDA: Hey! Fuck. I should have known that one right away.
JULIA: You know what Amanda, I've heard that said so many times in my listenings to Into the Woods and my viewings of Into the Woods. And only realized, like a couple years ago, that it first was a riddle and that the answer was a riddle.
AMANDA: Our man Sondheim loved a self referential text. And it makes utter sense that he would write in a riddle about riddles.
JULIA: Yeah. Especially a riddle about riddles in a musical about fairy tales, it makes a lot of sense. And in this episode of Amanda, I'm gonna explain to you why that makes a lot of sense.
AMANDA: Hey, that's exciting.
JULIA: Yes, because we are going to be talking about riddling creatures, riddling spirits, and also the— the heart of the riddle tale, which is a very common trope in fairy tales this episode.
AMANDA: Now Julia, what kind of—I don't want to say baggage necessarily. What kind of relationship to riddles are you bringing to the table? Because I feel like it's quite a divisive subject, where particularly like puns, you know, or something along those lines, or like a— like an optical illusion. I almost said a visual riddle. I mean, basically an optical illusion. People have very strong feelings about them.
JULIA: I like riddles. I in particular, like telling riddles to people, because one of my favorite things is asking someone a question, and then they are like, huh. Well, and then I say it, and they're like, oh, of course. That's very enjoyable to me as a person. It's why [2:37]
AMANDA: [2:38] yum, yum, yum.
JULIA: Nom, nom, nom. Love eating it. Nom, nom, nom. So I actually really enjoy riddles. And as a podcaster, I don't listen to a ton of podcasts because it is my full time job. It consumes a lot of my—my listening hours. But one of the few podcasts I do listen to is a riddle podcast. So I like riddles.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, I think that a lot of fantasy between, like, fairy tales and modern fantasy, like the hobbit really highlight how intrinsically linked in our minds, riddles and mythology are. So, like, I'm sure, off the top of your head, you could probably think of one or two riddling creatures when I mention riddles and folklore, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, there's definitely just like, a vague like Fae or like bridge troll, you know, somebody that like needs to grant passage if you answer them the correct riddle. There is the Sphinx, who, I guess, is a Riddler. It's very funny to call them riddlers. And I would also say that in all kinds of quests, there's like, oh, you know, you think you're so smart, a little little Quester will answer me this—this questing question. And then, you know, if you— if you prove yourself worthy enough, not just in physical form, but intellectually, then you get some kind of assistance from like the crone or the, you know,peddler, or whatever.
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, I'm so glad you mentioned all of those examples, because those are great examples. But you also mentioned the one that always comes first to my mind, which is the Sphinx. And it shouldn't be surprising to anyone. I am a Greek mythology girly at heart. So of course, I want to start by talking about the Sphinx to get us started for these riddling spirits. But before we dig into the Sphinx as a riddling spirit, I have to address something of the elephant in the room, and that is, there are two types of sphinxes.
AMANDA: Well, excellent, because I was going to ask, are the titties out,while the riddles are out? And I have to know.
JULIA: So the answer to that question, Amanda, is, when the titties are out, the riddles are out. And that is because when I say the Sphinx, I'm curious what you think of first?
AMANDA: First instinct is the statue in Egypt of lion body, lady head, no titties. But I also know there is a titty full version of the Sphinx, which is more like anthropomorphic in form.
JULIA: And I think you would be right. I think that a lot of people, their first thought is the Great Sphinx in Egypt. And the Egyptian sphinx actually came first and is considered, rather than a malicious riddling spirit, a protector spirit. And this sphinx acts in contrast to the later Greek Sphinx, which is, of course, a riddling, villainous creature that features heavily in the story of Oedipus. It's also somewhat interesting, because the sphinxes are two different genders in these different stories. Most scholars agree that the Egyptian Sphinx, which is featured in the Great Sphinx statue in Egypt, is actually male.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: While the Greek Sphinx is a woman, tits out and all as you mentioned.
AMANDA: Listen, guys can have their tits out, that's also fine.
JULIA: Of course.
AMANDA: But I—I so strongly associate the sort of, like feminine mystique and like unknowability and like kind of harpy vibes with a feminine coded Sphinx.
JULIA: Yeah, and that's really interesting. I think it is a kind of synchronization aspect in learning about both of these things. But what's really interesting, before we get into our villainous riddling spirit, I want to talk about the Egyptian Sphinx first, because we're just coming off of Denial isn't just a River in Egypt, and I'm still getting those little Egyptian cravings every now and again. So just a little like tributary, a little side in the Nile River. We're taking a pause here to talk a little bit about the Sphinx.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: So in general, the Sphinx is a creature with the body of a lion or a lioness, and the head of a different creature. Now you notice I didn't say human necessarily, and that is the most common combination that we see in a Sphinx. And in particularly in Egypt, it is the face of a human head, which is supposed to be the face of the reigning king or queen at the time.
AMANDA: Oh, interesting.
JULIA: However, there is evidence of other types of Sphinxes in Egypt that are different animal amalgamations that probably won't do it for you Amanda personally. Such as lion bodies with the heads of rams or hawks, or even the set dog creature that we talked about.
AMANDA: I gotta say the most disturbing one to me is the hawk. I'm just picturing a lethal head on a lion or lioness body, and those proportions don't do it for me.
JULIA: Yeah. A Griffin, at least, you have kind of the wings and the front half is eagle or hawk.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: However, when it's just lion body and eagle head.
AMANDA: The little head.
JULIA: I like that. You're not scaling up the head, you're doing full lion body, and then tiny, tiny hawk head.
AMANDA: I'm picturing it with those little hats on them as well, the like hoods that they used before Falconing.
JULIA:Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay, okay, so when we're thinking about our classic Sphinx, though, with the head of a royal, whether that is the King or Queen or Pharaoh. At the time, Sphinxes were supposed to represent the power and duty of the ruler to protect and defend Egypt.
AMANDA: Hey, Julia, I'm gonna say this once today, what happened to that?
JULIA: Yeah, would have been nice. Missed that. So they were protector creatures with sculptures of them, basically almost always posted outside of temples or tombs because they were supposed to defend those sacred places. Now the greatest example of this that still survives to this day is, of course, The Great Sphinx of Giza. This huge statue was carved out of an extremely faulty piece of an outcropping of rock during the 26th century BCE.
AMANDA: That's insane.
JULIA: And it was meant to act as the guardian over the royal cemeteries of the City of Memphis.
AMANDA: I love that they were like, guys. I know this rock isn't the best, but like, it's— it's right there. It's right there. It's so much longer to haul all this shit.
JULIA: Exactly. It just, it works. It works for the time being. And then—
AMANDA: 46 centuries later, here we are.
JULIA: Wild, wild. So since it was built, it has generated several different stories about what the mythology behind it is. Some from its own time, some in the more modern day. But from the New Kingdom on, it was identified as this Canaanite god named Horon, who was seen and worshiped as a solar deity. The Egyptians love a solar deity, that's just how it be.
AMANDA: A lot of sun out there.
JULIA: The two great pyramids that were built in its like shadow, in its wake were for the Pharaohs, Khufu and Keferan, and their placement on either side of the Sphinx was meant to mimic the two mountains of the horizon, with the Sphinx acting as the sun rising between them.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Now there is a story of these Sphinx from the 14th century BCE. Now keep in mind again, 26th century BCE was when it was built. Now this story, which is inscribed in a granite slab between the front paws of the Sphinx, still to this day, tells the story of how a Prince named Thutmose once visited the area on a hunting trip. When the Prince came across the statue, it had been buried by the desert with only its head still partially exposed. It's hot in the desert, this guy has been on a hunting trip all day. He is grateful for the shade in the heat of the desert, so he lays down between the front of the statue and falls asleep. As he falls asleep, he has this dream where the Great Sphinx speaks to him, quote, as a father speaks to his son—
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: —and calls himself Horae Maquette, or Horus of the Horizon, and he tells the prince that he was, quote, ailing in all of his limbs because the desert sands were crushing him under their weight.
AMANDA: Oh, right.
JULIA: And he tells the prince that if the Prince frees him from the sands, he would enjoy a long life and would one day become king.
AMANDA: I mean, that sounds like a pretty good bargain.
JULIA: Honestly?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Well, think about how huge the statue is, and it's buried like a lot of feet underneath the sand, right?
AMANDA: I think several weeks hard toil is worth a lifetime of prosperity and maybe being king.
JULIA: The Prince awakes from his dream, he sends for workers. Unfortunately, the rest of the slab is damaged, so we don't know how the story ends. But we do know historically—
AMANDA: Oh shit.
JULIA: —this prince does eventually become the Pharaoh, and it seems like he led the charge in helping to unearth the Sphinx as well as build these mud brick walls that were intended to keep sand away from the body of The Sphinx.
AMANDA: Wow, that's amazing. And also just, I mean, how humbling, right, that this was 4 and a half thousands years ago. And 1200 years after it was built, somebody was like, this shits been here forever, we have to excavate it like just the idea of it already being semi buried, semi forgotten, reminds me that history did not start in 1992 when I was born. And—and certainly not in my living memory. And we've just—we've always looked at things that pre existed us and said, like, I wonder where that came from. I wonder why this is here.
JULIA: Yeah. And what's really cool is this story is also a common motif in a lot of Egyptian storytelling and history and mythology, with like the sun god is under attack by the forces of chaos, in this case, the sands of the desert. And needs help to be, quote-unquote, “reborn”.
AMANDA: We need to get that Maat balanced.
JULIA: So we fast forward to the arrival of the Arab inhabitants of Egypt during the medieval period. They viewed The Great Sphinx as what they referred to as the Father of Terror. Basically a guardian of hidden treasure, which would sometimes reveal the treasure to the truly worthy, right?
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now, one legend out of this period says that the Sphinx kept the sand from overwhelming Giza until a overly zealous religious man destroyed the power by mutilating the statue's face, which is the origin of The Great Sphinx is missing nose.
AMANDA: I gotta say, he's much more striking without the nose.
JULIA: It gives him a certain allure, you know? A certain mystery.
AMANDA: Makes him look battle tested.
JULIA: Yeah.Even nowadays, The Great Sphinx is seen as a guardian of hidden wisdom, though, like what that wisdom is, it's kind of up to who's telling the story and interpretation. But Amanda, besides The Great Sphinx, there are other Sphinxes in Egyptian art. They're often shown trampling the enemies of Egypt or those who went against the divine order of Maat. There is also something called the Double Sphinx, which is known as Aker, who was said to be the guardian of the two horizons and also protected the entrance and exit of Duat, which is the underworld.
AMANDA: All this is very impressive Julia, but I'm not hearing any riddles. Like if anything that it was a prophetic dream, which, you know, no not to knock a prophetic dream, but it's— it's not riddling.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. So this, again, we're only a protector spirit, really, for the Egyptian Sphinx. We will get to our riddle guy in a second. Now, Amanda, real quick, when I say double Sphinx, what are you picturing here?
AMANDA: I was picturing one lion body, two heads.
JULIA: Yeah, Amanda, so it's a two human fronts opposite of each other, bound by a lion body in what I consider a cat dog situation.
AMANDA: Oh, that's even worse than I imagined.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: So it's not like a centaur, where we have shared hips leading to two torsos.
JULIA: No, it's just a cat dog situation.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: Yeah. It's pretty bad. Also, during the first millennium BCE, there was a Sphinx god known as Tutu, who gained in popularity during this time. He was usually seen as a standing Sphinx, so like on his hind legs with wings, and also a snake for a tail, who was invoked to keep enemies at a safe distance, and was said to be the son of the Goddess Neith.
AMANDA: Now I am just picturing like an orange cat, which we all know to be like the lovingly derpy ones, just like sitting on their—on their hide, leggies, little paws up.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. Very cute, I like that.
AMANDA: Yeah. Very cute.
JULIA: It's also interesting because it seems like the winged Sphinx is a later development in Egypt and would directly influence the Sphinx of Greek mythology.
AMANDA: I mean, the Egyptian Sphinx—the Egyptian Sphinx sounds incredibly powerful already. I don't know if you need to add wings to a lion in order to make that lion a very effective protector.
JULIA: But it does seem cool, doesn't it?
AMANDA: It is cool. It is cool.
JULIA: But Amanda, this leads us beautifully into our Greek Sphinx.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Now, our Greek sphinx was a woman with the body of a lioness, wings and from the chest up, a woman's body. Now she was said to be the daughter of Typhon and Echidna, who also spawned several other important monsters in Greek Mythology, like the Chimera, the [15:44] lion, Cerberus, the Lernaean Hydra, for example. And how she got into the mix of Greek Mythology, I think, is somewhat interesting. It was said to have started with the Hero Cadmus, who you might remember, killed a dragon of Ares in order to found the City of Thebes.
AMANDA: Okay. Alright.
JULIA: And the Greek gods, as we know, love to hold a grudge. So in revenge for killing his dragon, Ares summoned the Sphinx to a cave just outside the City of Thebes.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now she from this cave would observe all who passed by to enter the city, and occasionally would ravage the land surrounding Thebes, just basically like being a menace. Now, one of the things she would do was, when people attempted to enter the City of Thebes, would pose a riddle to those who got too close to her. And now I think this is a riddle that most people are probably familiar with, especially if you are familiar with Greek Mythology at all. But the riddle was, what animal is that which, in the morning goes by four feet, at noon on two feet, and on the evening upon three.
AMANDA: That would be the human being, which we are born crawling, walk for much of our life, and then often use a cane to help our mobility.
JULIA: Yes. Now Amanda, if you hadn't been able to solve that riddle, which was pretty much anyone in Greek Mythology up until a certain point.
AMANDA: I mean, I wouldn't know it if I hadn't been taught it. You know what I mean, like that—that is often the case with riddles where there is just like an unexplained or unforecasted, like expanding of a given word. So this is like, morning, noon and night is meant to be over your lifetime, and not over a day. And so it's like, oh, you idiot, you didn't know that I meant that it was the whole life. But you wouldn't know unless someone told you.
JULIA: Yeah. And in that case, if you were a Thebian merchant, for example, trying to leave the city or bring in goods, you'd [17:40]
AMANDA: I mean, sucks. So what's the— what's the thought here? Was she just a menace having fun, or is this some kind of like filtering mechanism where only the, I don't know, savviest at riddles of— of vendors get in?
JULIA: Well, here's the thing, Ares wanted to basically destroy the city, because people couldn't come in and out of the city, or would get eaten, if they, like, went into the lands of the city, outside the city walls. Things were not good in Thebes.
AMANDA: Got it. So this is we're sort of approaching like fairy tale logic, where they set up an impossible task that's meant to be impossible.
JULIA: Yes. So many Thebians were killed by the Sphinx, including the Prince of Thebes himself.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Now the King Creon then decreed that the person who rid the land of The Sphinx would inherit the throne. Because now he doesn't have an heir, so he's like, please get rid of The Sphinx and then you can be my new heir, right?
AMANDA: Sucks.
JULIA: Now Oedipus hears about this challenge, takes it up. He goes to the mountain where The Sphinx lives, and has her riddle posed to him. And then the young man provides the answer, just like you did, Amanda, which was man. As soon as Oedipus solves the riddle correctly, The Sphinx throws herself from the mountain to her death, and Oedipus inherits the throne, and we all know what happens after that.
AMANDA: Oh, baby. Okay. So The Sphinx was, like, so embarrassed to be bested by a man or a human that she was like, well, that's it for me.
JULIA: Yeah basically, more or less.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yeah. So when you said, like, oh, is this a filtering mechanism? I'm like, no, no, no, because the minute she gets a correct answer, she is done for.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: Now I will say there is also a second riddle that The Sphinx posed to citizens of Thebes in alternate stories. Would you like to hear this one?
AMANDA: Please.
JULIA: There are two sisters, one gives birth to the other, and she, in turn, gives birth to the first. Who are the two sisters?
AMANDA: Julia, this is going to be the sun and the moon.
JULIA: The answer is technically, day and night, Amanda, but you're correct.
AMANDA: Okay, okay.
JULIA: That's close enough that I don't think you would get eaten by The Sphinx.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Now I know we've done a lot of focus on just The Sphinxes at this point, but there are plenty of other riddling spirits and riddling tales out there Amanda in the world. And I will tell you a little bit more about them just as soon as we get back from our refill.
AMANDA: Let's go.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. Of course, we have to start by thanking our newest patrons, Mia and White Snake Fairy 26, welcome! You join the ranks of our supporting producer level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Hannah, Jane, Lily, Matthew, Rikoelike, Scott, Wil and AE (Ah). As well as our legend level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And hey you too, can join the ranks of our Patreon by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast and getting cool rewards, like our brand new recommendation newsletter that we're going to be sending out every single month. Bonus urban legends episodes, ad-free episodes, recipe cards for every single episode and so much more. Check it out. Go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast today. And hey, if you love our show, I bet you're also going to love Attach Your Resume. Which is one of the brand new shows from Multitude that interviews online creators about how their jobs work and how they got there. You can hear personal stories behind seismic events in digital media and learn what concrete steps we can take to build a sustainable media landscape. Hosted by long time producers and business owners, Eric and Amanda, that's our Amanda. Attach Your Resume proves that the best credential for deciding the future of media is actually making media. Season One is available to marathon through right now as they're working on Season Two, and you can subscribe to Attach Your Resume in your podcast app right now. Check it out. We are also sponsored this episode by Seagrape Apothecary. Seagrape Apothecary is a queer pleasure focused apothecary that focuses on community and connection through intentional ritual and supportive tools. We had the pleasure of visiting them when we were in Portland. And oh my gosh, what a incredible store, an incredible vibe. Just the feeling there was really, really special. And I really love what they're doing. You might have seen their videos on Tiktok or Instagram or what have you. And I just— I love what they're doing, I love everything about that. It makes my witchy, beautiful soul feel a little bit stronger and a little bit more fulfilled. And I just love everything that Seagrape Apothecary is doing. And while I think you should definitely go visit their brick and mortar store in Portland, Oregon, if you're ever in the area, you can also use our code Spirits for 10% off their online orders. So that is Spirits for 10% off online orders. Check it out, and hey, let them know that we sent you by using code Spirits and getting 10% off your online order. Thank you so much. Seagrape Apothecary. And now—
ASHLEY FLOWER: Some mysteries can be solved by looking at the facts, but in some cases, answers lie in the unknown. I'm Ashley flowers, and each week on my podcast, So Supernatural, we explore some of the world's most bizarre occurrences and unravel their possible explanations, no matter how strange. Because sometimes to get to the truth, you have to look beyond what we know to be reality. Listen to So Supernatural now wherever you get your podcasts.
JULIA: Let's get back to our episode.
[theme]
AMANDA: Now, Julia, how would you fare if at your local cocktail bar they required you to answer riddles before ordering drinks? Hear me out. I think you specifically would do very well. But also this— this could be a useful, just sort of test where, like, I've definitely been there, where I've had two cocktails, that's probably enough, but I'm having so much fun. And so if there was a little, just like a little—
JULIA: Barrier?
AMANDA: —I don't know, barrier exactly, between me and the third cocktail, maybe that's good for me, you know?
JULIA: Mayhaps, mayhaps. For example, Amanda, maybe your bartender asks you, I smell of smoke but not of flame. I have a bite, but no teeth. I taste like fire but flow like water. I am all that remains after the angels and devils have their share, what am I?
AMANDA: This has gotta be whiskey.
JULIA: It's whiskey!
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: And then you would get your shot a whiskey and your beer, Amanda.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: As we all know, Amanda loves a beer shot combo. Amanda, you recently had a beer shot combo contest, I guess for your birthday party.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: What would you say is the best combo with a whiskey?
AMANDA: With a whiskey you're gonna want, something in the lager family, like staying away from an IPA, so that instead it is the, you know, the bite and spice of the whiskey that's washed down with my particular favorite in the summertime would be like a Narragansett out of the can, never on tap, or a Miller High Life out of a bottle, never out of a can.
JULIA: The champagne of beers.
AMANDA: The champagne of beers.
JULIA: We love it. It's honestly one of my favorite beers. It was my household beer now.
AMANDA: Yeah, it would be a strong contender for my desert island beer.
JULIA: Yeah. And I—recently my local beer distributor who started having the pony sized ones.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: And now my favorite little like, ting, you crack it open.
AMANDA: That's also the quantity I want. Like, I started asking for my beer shot combos, but I get a half size beer because I'm like, I don't—I don't need to be drinking be drinking 32 ounces of beer, if I have two beer shot combos.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. I feel you. Otherwise you just get a little bloated, you know?
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: The pony is the perfect size without the bloat, in my personal opinion.
AMANDA: By the time it warms up, you're ready to crack open another gold one.
JULIA: Exactly. Okay, now, Amanda, we're heading away from our Greek Sphinx, and I want to bring you a story from India, which is known as the Vikram Vetal.
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: Now, this is a larger story with 24 other smaller stories set within it. And it follows King Vikram Meditya, or King Vikram, who promises a religious figure that he will capture Vetal, who is a particular spirit that hangs upside down from a tree and enjoys inhabiting and animating dead bodies.
AMANDA: Okay, okay, okay.
JULIA: Now the Vetal was said to exist in a realm between life and death, and had this ability to see into the past, present and future.
AMANDA: Very creepy. I am, for whatever reason, Julia picturing a marmoset.
JULIA: Oh, like a little—oh, I'm picturing, like a possum.
AMANDA: Oh, yes. Okay, alright. But—but we're in the sort of like rodent mammal family. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The things with tails that hang from trees, that's also what I'm picturing. I got you. Now with this boundless knowledge, it made them really invaluable to these spiritual leaders called Vamatari, who— which is sometimes translated in English, to sorcerer. So I'm going to use that for the time being. So this sorcerer requests from King Vikram to capture the Vetal so that he could use its powers to do his bidding. And in return, he promised King Vikram the ability to bring prosperity to his kingdom.
AMANDA: I mean, again, if that's what the king is there to do, then I kind of understand why he finds himself enmeshed in this story.
JULIA: That's the kind of overarching story, the framework kind of, ala a thousands nights right? Now, within each of these 24 stories, within the overarching story, they are about Vikram attempting to capture the Vetal. And each story ends with a riddle that is posed by the Vetal, which Vikram has to answer. Basically, kind of to summarize, the Vetal eventually proves to be a good spirit, despite its sort of monstrous appearance and the ability to inhabit the dead. And the Vetal eventually warns Vikram that the sorcerer that promised him this power was in fact trying to plot his death.
AMANDA: Ah, useful.
JULIA: Now together, Vikram and the Vetal defeat the sorcerer, and Vikram releases the Vetal with the promise that he will come to Vikram's aid whenever he is in need.
AMANDA: Hey, that's not bad.
JULIA: Yeah. And so this one's really interesting, because a lot of the riddles that the Vetal poses to Vikram are basically like a story, and then a question is posed as to what the right choice at the end of the story should be. And what is interesting here, though, is that the deal between Vikram and the Vetal is made that like if Vikram cannot answer the question correctly, the Vetal consented to remain in captivity. Like so Vikram would catch the Vetal. The vital would be like, ha ha ha, well, let me tell you a riddle. And if you answer it incorrectly, I'll stay with you. But if you answer it correctly, you have to let me go.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So the problem is, it is a cycle of sort of catching and releasing the Vetal, all 24 times because Vikram one is incapable of lying about his answer.
AMANDA: Okay. I was gonna say either this is like extreme truthfulness or extreme ego, where he can't be wrong.
JULIA: Yes. And also he is such a like wise leader that he always answers it correctly.
AMANDA: He always knows it, and he's like, damn, another one I know. I cannot lie and say I don't know it. Oh, how sweet. Vikram seems like a real sweetie.
JULIA: Yes. So Amanda, the riddles are interesting. I'm gonna give you a couple of examples. So for example, there's a story about a beautiful girl who is ready to get married, but then a demon comes and says he's going to steal her away on her wedding day.
AMANDA: Sounds like Julia, all popular fantasy books right now, but continue.
JULIA: Now, each of her three family members, her father, her mother and her brother, bring forth suitors for her. Her father brings a warrior, her mother brings a poet, and her brother brings an engineer. When she is presented to them, however, before she can choose who she wants to marry, she is stolen by the demon. And each of the suitors participates in saving her from this demon.
AMANDA: A real Mamma Mia situation.
JULIA: Exactly. It basically ends with like the knowledge between the engineer and the poet get them to where the demon is, and then the warrior defeats the demon.
AMANDA: What a— what a sweet argument for a robust education.
JULIA: Hell yeah. Now the Vetal then asks Vikram, at this point in the story, after the woman has been saved, who should she marry? The warrior, the poet or the engineer? Now, Amanda, who do you think she should marry?
AMANDA: Ah, I feel like the the warrior would be too headstrong, the poet would be too lost in their own thoughts, and you're married to an engineer. So let's vote with that.
JULIA: Vikram answers that a husband should be able to protect his wife from all forms of danger, and the Warrior was there for the most worthy of the three suitors.
AMANDA: Okay, not bad.
JULIA: Another example is a story in which a man falls in love with a woman and marries her with her parents consent, and when returning home with his new wife and his best friend in tow, he and his friend are attacked and then beheaded by bandits.
AMANDA: Oh, shit. I was gonna say, where's the story, Julia? There's parents consent, we're in love and we're traveling with a friend.
JULIA: Yeah. So the new bride, seeing both men dead, both the her new husband and the friend.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Prays to the Goddess Durga, who answers her prayer and brings both men back to life, so long as the bride returns the heads to the body.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Now, in her excitement to bring the men back, she accidentally puts her husband's head on her— on the friend's body and vice versa.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: She switches the bodies with the heads.
AMANDA: This is very bad.
JULIA: So Vetal asks Vikram, who should the bride now consider her husband? The man who has the husband's head, or the man who has the husband's body?
AMANDA: Oh, no. Well, which is she more attracted to? No, I— okay. I mean, I'm guessing the right answer is— is the— the body, because the heart, it already belongs to you?
JULIA: Ah, well, Amanda Vickram responds, since the brain controls the whole man, the man with the husband's head is now the bride's husband.
AMANDA: I mean, that's that's the right answer, that's a better answer.
JULIA: Yeah. So I think this is really interesting, because it poses a bunch of very interesting riddles. And at the same time, I like the Vetal as not only a riddling spirit, but a benevolent riddling spirit that, at the end of everything, does help Vikram achieve his goal, even though his goal changes when he realizes that he is being plotted against.
AMANDA: I think it's really cool that they're allies and that the riddling creature is not sort of like, I don't know, like a riddle can almost be like a a false test, where you're not meeting one another on equal terms. Where something about the way the riddling creature is using language is atypical or unusual. That is often like, Oh, it's a homophone, or we're defining it differently, or the answer is a pun, in some ways. But I like that the Vetal meets an equal in Vikram, and that somebody wise, they're like, game recognized game. I see what you did there. And it's —it's just a, it's just like a wholesome and fun, like meeting of the wits. And I love that there are 24 of these.
JULIA: Yes. I—It feels like a real, like two season buddy comedy, almost.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Like it could—it could be good. There is an animated Indian television show about this entire story. I don't know. I can't speak to how good it is, but I know that it exists out there in the world. So if you wanted to watch it, you could.
AMANDA: Conspirators, if you've checked that out, let us know.
JULIA: Please. Please do. Now. There are many other trickster spirits out there that sometimes feature riddles but are not as focused as, say, the Vetal or The Greek Sphinx. I think many people, as you mentioned before, Amanda, probably think of bridge trolls as being known to ask people to solve a riddle or a puzzle in order to pass over the bridge. And while this is pretty well known, neither myself nor researcher Sally could really find the origin behind this.
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: Yeah, the consensus seems to be that the idea of the bridge troll kind of taking its toll comes from the story of Three Billy Goats Gruff. But in that story, there is no formal riddle. It's rather that the goats managed to trick the troll in order to cross the bridge.
AMANDA: It feels almost like, you know, if you can't pay the toll with money, you have to pay with your wits. And so that could mean tricking them, or that could mean answering a riddle, or that could mean just like bypassing it in some other way.
JULIA: Yeah. And I think there is definitely some sort of, like bridge troll oral tradition out of Norway and the Nordic region in general. But there's not like a place where we can look at that and say, ah, yes, this is the origin.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, while I did go to Tromso Norway for my honeymoon, the troll museum was closed for repairs while we were there. So unfortunately, I'm never gonna know.
JULIA: You'll just have to go back, Amanda.
AMANDA: I will. I will.
JULIA: But in general, riddle tales seem to be the key to a lot of fairy tale stories. To the point where the Arne Thompson classification system catalogs two folklore tale types that include riddle contests. One is called Out Riddling the Judge, and the other is The Princess Who Could not Solve the Riddle.
AMANDA: No, no.
JULIA: Now the first is kind of like a tale about testing the wisdom of a king or another ruler, and then the other is about testing the suitability of a suitor. And these types of fairy tales and folk tales are sort of a subset of the wisdom contest. But the riddles are central to these types of stories. And these can be pretty much found around the world, which I think is very cool, that we have so many stories that are focused on riddles.
AMANDA: Me too.
JULIA: One of the earliest examples is actually from Sumeria. It is a story called Enmerkar and the Lord of Arata, which basically features a series of conflicts, wisdom contests, in particular between the two titular characters. There's also, of course, Samson's riddle from the Book of Judges, in which he poses a riddle to his wedding guests. Now, Amanda, I don't know if you've heard this one or not, but, it's out of the eater came something to eat, and out of the strong came something sweet.
AMANDA: I got nothing. I have no idea where to start.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, this really sucks first, huh.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Because it's based on like, an experience that Samson had that he didn't tell anyone besides his wife about. Where he found the body of a lion that was also full of honey bees and honey and like no one could deduce that.
AMANDA: That's really gross. I figured there was some kind of, you know, some kind of body medical horror stuff going on. Gross.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Bees don't want to be in there, why would they be in there?
JULIA: I don't know. It was just a sign from God, I think?
AMANDA: No disrespect, God, effective sign. I would— I would probably turn tail and change my ways if I saw that on the side of the road.
JULIA: Next, I want to give a shout out to [37:45] riddles. Which is a group of about 37 or so Icelandic verse riddles that were part of a riddle contest between the god Odin and the Hero King Hedricker.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: Now, Hedricker was a king who was also beefing with this other man. This other man was scared that this king was gonna kill him, and so he made a sacrifice to Odin. And he was like, please help me.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So Odin takes the form of that man who had wronged the king, and he comes to Hedricker's court and demanded that if he could stump the king in a series of riddles, he would be allowed to be freed.
AMANDA: Great. I—I can think of no better figure for the job than Odin.
JULIA: So here's a couple of examples of the riddles that Odin gave to Hendricker. That what I have, which I had yesterday, heed what I had. Men's hamperer, words hinderer and speeder of speech.
AMANDA: Uh, alcohol?
JULIA: Ale.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Good job. Aright, here's another one. Harshly he clangs on hard paths, treading which he has fared before. Two mouths he has and mightily kisses on gold alone, he goes.
AMANDA: First, I thought a horse. Is it like—is it some kind of form of transportation, like a cart?
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: Oh, what is it?
JULIA: It is a Goldsmith's hammer.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: Two heads.
AMANDA: Two heads.
JULIA: Alright. And then lastly—
AMANDA: Julia, I was picturing just a horse, cat, dog situation, where it was, yeah, one long horse, body, four legs, two heads. I'm sorry I put the cat dog situation in your brain.
AMANDA: Yep. It is 11 in the morning. We have long way to go before we can sleep.
JULIA: Alright, here's the last one. I'm gonna pose for you. Upward it flies with eagle's voice and hard grip its claws the helmet.
AMANDA: Oh, is this an arrow?
JULIA: Yes, Amanda. You and Hedricker would do so good here.
AMANDA: Thank you. So wait, were there 37 of them, because he kept getting them, and then the last one, he got stumped?
JULIA: Yes. So that's a— Amanda, great thing. So this goes on and on. Hedricker answers all of the riddles correctly. Finally, Odin asks guess one more riddle since wiser thou seamus than any other white. What said Odin in Baldur's ear before he was born to the fire.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: Now this Amanda is a unsolvable riddle which is referred to in riddle tales as a neck riddle, because only Odin would know the answer to this.
AMANDA: Very good now.
JULIA: It's called the neck riddle, by the way, because it is, quote, a question that is unanswerable, except by the asker who thus saves his neck by the riddle, for the judge or executioner has promised release in exchange for the riddle that cannot be guessed.
AMANDA: Nice. Because I was like, Is it because you like, whisper it really—really little into your neck. But no, because you're saving your own.
JULIA: Because it literally saves his neck. Yeah.
AMANDA: Incredible. Incredible.
JULIA: So this pissed Hedricker off because he then realizes that this is Odin, because only Odin would know the answer to that.
AMANDA: It's like, oh, fuck, right, yeah.
JULIA: So he tries to attack Odin, who then transforms into a hawk and flies away.
AMANDA: I mean, yeah, it's not gonna go well.
JULIA: It was also said that this is the origin as to why hawks have such short tail feathers, because Hedricker slices off the tail feathers as Odin flies away in Hawk form.
AMANDA: Cute. It does seem like hawks should, and, I mean, some do, but like the the common Hawk that we know of, seems like they should have longer tail feathers.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. But it helps with their aerodynamic though.
AMANDA: Listen, no disrespect to the hawk, as discussed earlier. Falcons, hawks, lethal heads, the rest of them, good stuff.
JULIA: I think, sort of the opposite of the story that I just told you is a Persian story that is called Turandot. Tarando it depends on the translation, and also if you're saying it in the Italian opera version that is very popular of this or the traditional.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: So in this story, the titular Princess declares that you will only marry a suitor who can answer three riddles, and anyone who fails to do so will be beheaded the next morning.
AMANDA: Yikes.
JULIA: This, I think, is a kind of classic story that I've seen retold many times and in different forms. Like I really distinctly remember a version of this story in a like children's horror book that was either I can't —and I can't remember. It was either written by Stephen King or RL Stein.
AMANDA: What? Who can say?
JULIA: Who can say?
AMANDA: One or the other. It's gotta be, yeah.
JULIA: So upon seeing the Princess behead one of her suitors in the town hall, this other Prince sees her and falls in love with her instantly.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: And is like, you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna try to answer those riddles.
AMANDA: I love that the step mommy, mommy guy has been around from time in memorial.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA: Anyone else see a tall lady behead some guy and go, yes, please. There's—there's millennia of us, Julia. Millennia.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. Alright. So he foolishly puts himself forward as a suitor, despite knowing that failing to do so will end in his death. And so he goes to the court, and the Princess asks the first riddle, which is, what is born each night and dies each dawn?
AMANDA: I would assume, like the stars or the moon or a constellation?
JULIA: The correct answer is hope.
AMANDA: Ah, she's had a bad time.
JULIA: Ah, yeah, which he correctly answers.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: She presents the second riddle, which is what flickers red and warm like a flame, but is not fire?
AMANDA: Um, I don't— love? Desire?
JULIA: The Prince takes a moment and then correctly guesses blood.
AMANDA: Oh, you're right. You know, I need to get myself much more cynical. I need to make myself step into the space of the broad lady beheading men. Okay.
JULIA: Yeah. Remember that she does not want to be married.
AMANDA: Yeah. Okay, great.
JULIA: Alright. The Princess, at this point, shook, presents— because no one's gotten this far before.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: She presents the third riddle, which is, what is ice, which gives you fire and which your fire freezes still more?
AMANDA: Her heart.
JULIA: To which he replies, you, [44:09].
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: The correct guess.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: She is upset.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: She begs her father, the King, not to make her follow through with her vow, but he holds her to the promise. However—
AMANDA: He's like, honey, we're in—we're in a folk tale. The thing is about following through on your vows
JULIA: Exactly. However, the Prince, seeing that she is upset about the situation, offers her a riddle of his own. It's not really a riddle, but, you know, keeping with the theme. You do not know my name, tell me my name before sunrise, and at dawn I will die.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: And she's like, fine. Great. Love that. As the night goes on, she is attempting to find out the Prince's name. She's doing, like, torture on the side as this, like, she's like, interviewing people who met this Prince.
AMANDA: Yeah. Yeah.
JULIA: She's torturing people. She is like begging him for more information, etc, etc. And as this night goes on, she admits to him, upon meeting him, that she realized that she both loves and hates him.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Right before dawn, she admits this to him, and in that moment, he reveals his name to her, which basically leaves his fate in her hands.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: When the two are presented at dawn to the King, the King asks his daughter, what is the name of the Prince? And she says, rather than his name—
AMANDA: Does she say, my husband?
JULIA: — she says, Love.
AMANDA: Aww.
JULIA: And the two are married.
AMANDA: Persia, I was unfamiliar with your game. Well done.
JULIA: Pretty good, pretty good.
AMANDA: Pretty good.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, there are so many other great fairy tales and folk tales that surround riddles, and I would love to revisit these at some point. I think maybe a riddle tale episode sometime in the future, may be up for grabs. But if there is a riddle tale or riddle related story that you really love, conspirators, please send it our way. Via our website, spiritspodcast.com/contact or at spiritspodcast@gmail.com
AMANDA: And just put riddle in the subject line, and I will make sure that I don't read them so I can stay fresh, as you know, newly fallen snow or newly spilled blood of the suitor that wasn't sort of woody enough to get my riddle.
JULIA: Yeah, there you go, there you go. Well, the next time you're considering marrying someone, but you have to ask them three riddles beforehand, remember, stay creepy—
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JULIA: Later, satyrs.