Episode 41: Reptilians & Cults (with Kelly Weill)
/We’re kicking folklore into the 21st century to bring you this #kindacultykindacool episode. We’ve brought in reporter Kelly Weill to discuss Reptilians, cults, GOOP, and more as we dive into some recent events involving cult communities. What makes a cult? Why is steak tartare a faux pas among Reptilian watchers? How is the internet changing new religious movements? We cover all this and more!
Content warning for violent crime, suicide, and harassment. If you or a loved one are experiencing thoughts of suicide, call 800-273-8255. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is available 24/7.
Thanks to Kelly Weill for joining us this episode! Follow her on Twitter @KellyWeill and check out her writing for The Daily Beast here. This is her initial article on the Reptilians, and a follow-up on the cult leader’s response. We also recommend the podcast Oh No Ross and Carrie by Maximum Fun!
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. To read up on us, listen to us on other podcasts, or send us a note, just head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 41: Reptilians and Cults with Kelly Weill.
JS: Guys, this episode is really, really cool and, honestly, I think it's the most topical our episode has ever been. Ever.
AM: Yeah. The most – the most like current to what's going on in the world right now.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Also, this may be the closest to what we actually talked about in bars on Friday nights.
JS: This is really close.
AM: We talk about cults with Matt from the Orlando episode probably once every two weeks.
JS: Especially when that R. Kelly stuff was going down. Yeah. That was like a solid --
AM: Really.
JS: -- two-hour conversation about R. Kelly and cults.
AM: Yeah, it's true. And, conveniently, we were in a bar already. So, we could drink our sorrows away.
JS: It worked really well.
AM: You can just drink responsibly. Anyway, we would like to start this episode by thanking our most responsible and lovely – and, and, you know, give back our members of our community.
JS: Give back?
AM: Our newest patrons – let's move past it. So, thank you so much to Kayleigh, Philip, Prett, Emily, JST, Meg, Alexa, Chrissi for joining us and, of course, to our supporting producer-level patrons: LeeAnn, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Sara, Katie, Debra, Julie.
JS: We definitely don't think you are meat-eating reptilians.
AM: No. Like, if you ate steak tartare in front of us, we would be like obviously human.
JS: Obviously, a human, please share with us some.
AM: It'll make sense. Thank you for your cadence there. I guess we're both just getting kind of crazy on this one right now.
JS: Yeah, a little bit.
AM: Great. So, Julia, what actually are we drinking for this episode?
JS: This episode, we had a great beer called – I don't remember the name of it.
AM: Founders Lizard of Koz. Someone like brewed a beer for his sister, and it's called Lizard of Koz. It's an imperial stout. It is effing delicious.
JS: I want someone to brew me a beer with that epic name.
AM: Get in touch.
JS: Get in touch. I'm cheating a little bit, Amanda, this week for recommendation corner, because I'm going to plug something that's ours already.
AM: Please do.
JS: I'm going to plug our Tumblr because our Tumblr is newly revived. It has posts every single day. I am doing mood boards for every one of our new episodes. It's very exciting.
AM: They're so beautiful. I want to print them all out and put them on my fridge. Julia, you're doing such a good job.
JS: Thank you.
AM: They're beautiful. So, follow us over there. Our, our inbox is open. You can ask us questions anonymously if you don't want to like email or tweet or Facebook us or all the other ways you can get in touch.
JS: Yeah. And that's just spiritspodcast@tumblr.com.
AM: Yes. Spritispodcast.tumblr.com.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's the one. And I'm also going to promote something that we do, which is we're going to be part of the two pods a day campaign, which is a like podcast recommendation campaign for August as is Join the Party, my other podcast, Dungeons, and Dragons storytelling. Good stuff. Which Julia is actually on. She was on yesterday's episode.
JS: I am.
AM: Episode 7.
JS: I'm super cool.
AM: It's so good. My character has a crush on Julia's character, which has never – I never experienced it in actual life, but it's cute for our characters to have that.
JS: My character is also the coolest in the world.
AM: She really is. There's like a – there's mysterious books. There's a cool cloak. There's like a major character meltdown. It's really good stuff.
JS: I have a giant. I have a giant metal man. Or, is he stone? I don't remember.
AM: I think metal. There's a kind of Dr. Frankenstein situation going on. It's good stuff guys, Join the Party. And a related nun-us recommendation is actually the podcast, Venture Maidens. It is a awesome incredibly well-done hilarious podcast by four women who have been friends for years and years playing Dungeons and Dragons. Their characters are so incredible. You can tell – much like, when Julia and I banter, you can tell we've been friends for 20 years. Like you can tell that these women – they were all roommates. They've all been playing D&D together for years and years. And they are really good and really funny. They live stream all of their play sessions. Like what the hell?
JS: Damn.
AM: It takes us so much time to edit together a 45-minute podcast.
JS: It's bold.
AM: I can't imagine doing it all live. So, it is really, really great. Venture Maidens, find them on any podcast player or on YouTube.
JS: Yeah. If you can't tell, we love D&D podcasts.
AM: We do.
JS: And we love D&D.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because we're big old nerds.
AM: Big old nerds.
JS: And I'm sure a bunch of you are big old D&D nerds as well. So, you should definitely check out those shows.
AM: If you like us, you're gonna like this. Trust me.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, with that, y'all, please enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 41: Reptilians and Cults with Kelly Weill.
Intro Music
Audience 1: It's basically an intergalactic invasion into the space for people. I'm telling you. It's what all the ancient said. It's what they warned of. It's what we're dealing with.
AM: We are so happy to welcome Kelly Weill to the show, who's a reporter at The Daily Beast. Basically, you published a headline that was so clickable that Julia and I like texted each other furiously. Like, "Do you see this article?" And we had to talk to you about alien cult. So, welcome.
K. Weill: Thank you so much.
JS: And, talking about aliens, it's reptilians and vegetarianism I guess.
K. Weill: It's really whatever you want it to be.
JS: Of course.
K. Weill: That's the beauty of this because it's such an expansive universe within this cult that, pretty much any topic you can think of, they've brought up and have conspiracy about.
JS: That's fantastic.
AM: So, I would love to start with a particular architecture of this group's mythology. Maybe you can take us through just like the, you know, bare bones of the article, where are the plot points, and then a little more into their universe. And, if we chat more about our favorite culty things, even better.
K. Weill: So, basically, this is an online-based group. And it's run by a woman named Sherry Shriner. And she preaches a few things. It's very new world order based. They believe that reptilian aliens are taking over the world.
JS: Of course.
K. Weill: As you do, you know, just Cult 101. And she has some very devout followers. And, unfortunately, earlier this month one died after a prolonged fallout over his girlfriend ate steak tartare, which is --
AM: Yeah. That's how it always starts.
K. Weill: It is always how it starts.
JS: I'm gonna rethink all of my menu choices from now on.
K. Weill: Right. Because you never know what will get you branded as a reptilian as this happened. So, steak tartare --
JS: Can't eat a really raw steak.
AM: Oh, so, reptilians are bad and not like revered.
JS: Yes.
K. Weill: Right.
AM: Okay.
K. Weill: Reptilians, they are – apparently, three out of four people that you'll encounter are actually reptilians because that's --
JS: What? That seems like a high number.
K. Weill: It does, right?
JS: It does seem like a really high number.
K. Weill: So, like that, statistically, like, out of all of us, all three of us might be reptilians. So, there's – there's a --
AM: My whole family could be. My whole office could be. Who knows?
JS: I'm gonna – I'm gonna fess up to the reptilianness right now.
AM: It's like, when you look around at a family party and you're like, guys, there are 30 of us in this room. I can't be the only gay one. I can't. I just can't.
JS: I mean true.
AM: There must – someone show yourself to me. If there were – is there like a reptilian-like signal they know each other?
K. Weill: I don't know. I haven't dug that deep. I think sometimes they morph out of their skin.
AM: Woooh.
K. Weill: Yeah. So, like that's when they'll like compile videos of like Justin Bieber looks weird in this picture. Is he morphing into reptilian form? And the answer is always yes.
JS: Amanda, did you just ask if the reptilians have a gang sign?
AM: Not a gang sign necessarily.
JS: I mean okay.
AM: But just a little identification marker. Like there's, there's like the clear nod or there's like someone with a tote bag that you like. And then, across the subway, you're just like, "Yeah. Nice. Nice tote bag."
JS: Okay. So, there is no reptilian gang sign, just a queer tote bag.
AM: Sure. Yes.
JS: Okay. Cool.
AM: Let's, let's go with that.
K. Weill: If nothing else, there should be a handshake.
JS: There should be a handshake. It's like the shimmy, shimmy ko-ko bop kind of situation here.
AM: I'm sorry.
JS: It's a handshake.
AM: I got you. I got you.
JS: All right.
AM: Back to the – back to the cult.
JS: I'm sorry.
K. Weill: So, this woman ate a steak tartare, which is a – I guess a raw beef dish.
AM: Yes.
K. Weill: And, if you know anything about reptilians, they love to eat raw meat.
AM: Okay.
K. Weill: So --
JS: My knowledge of reptiles won't tell me that.
AM: That is correct.
K. Weill: Yeah. So, this --
AM: It checks out.
K. Weill: -- this sowed some division in the – in the community. People started calling her reptilian. Her boyfriend leaped to her aid being like, "She's not a reptilian," as you would do for any loved one I think.
JS: Of course. I would claim my reptilian boyfriend is definitely not a reptilian.
K. Weill: Totally.
AM: And what is this community we're talking about? Just like friends and like in a town?
K. Weill: Mostly – it's mostly internet-based. So, it's mostly people who follow the mostly online ministry of this woman, Sherry Shriner.
AM: Uh, huh.
K. Weill: But they do have meetup. So, you know, sometimes – they've actually come here to New York. They planted – they, they have this magical metal that they think drives away clones, aliens, demons.
JS: Cool.
K. Weill: And they just put it everywhere.
AM: I mean thank you. It's kind of like the Hare Krishna is, where it's like, "You may be disrupting my commute a little bit, but like thank you for bestowing blessings upon me today."
JS: Yeah. All they're trying to do is just --
AM: Super appreciate it.
JS: -- say the word so you think about it. And then you're blessed by thinking of it.
AM: I just – it's just – it's a – it's a nice service.
K. Weill: It's a consideration definitely. Yeah.
JS: Now, is it like blog based or YouTube? Or --
K. Weill: It is truly multiplatform.
JS: Okay.
K. Weill: It's great. It's the future of media. They've beat us to it.
AM: Like cross platform-ish.
K. Weill: Yeah. I think maybe, in its origins, it might have been radio-based. And that seems like where a lot of people, you know, 15 years or so ago started coming on, but it's very blog based now.
JS: Okay.
K. Weill: You know, it's a network of websites and, you know, GoFundMes. There's a lot of money going through.
AM: Oh, boy.
JS: GoFundMes to fight the reptilians.
K. Weill: That is exactly what --
AM: GoFundmybattlesagainstthereptilians.com.
K. Weill: Register it now, because it's probably like in hot demand.
AM: I'm, I'm going for it right now.
K. Weill: So, as the weeks and months progressed, this, this couple got fairly ostracized from their friends who were, you know, their main – their main support group. You know, their main – their circle. And he made a – this guy, Steve, made a whole bunch of, you know, video posting, "You know, I'm denouncing Sherry, our leader, et cetera, et cetera." And, early this month, his girlfriend, Barb, called police to say, "I just shot my boyfriend. He asked me to." And they arrested her on murder charges. So, the question now is what exactly happened, because we have someone who, apparently, asked to die. Police said he showed no signs of struggle. It looks like from the autopsy that the gun was placed directly on his forehead. And his girlfriend said he took my hands and he put the gun on his forehead. So, this is a very bitter end to something that was just so absurd. I almost laugh about it, but --
AM: Right.
K. Weill: -- it is – yeah. It had a human toll. And, in fact, it's the second person to have died in the circle. So, it's – yeah. It's a – it's kind of dark. Under all the strange reptile layers, there is – there is a body count.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And like at the – at the base of this is fear, you know. And, and that obviously motivates people to act in extreme ways.
JS: I'm, I’m curious what happened to the first person who died under the body count here.
K. Weill: Right. So, I have an article right now. It's slated to go up on Saturday.
JS: Okay. By the – by the episode comes out, it will be out and we'll link to it.
K. Weill: Okay. Well, thank you so much.
JS: Of course.
K. Weill: No. She, she died of suicide.
JS: Oh, god.
K. Weill: It looks like she overdosed. And these are young people. She was 22. The young man who died – he was 32. So, these are, you know, preventable deaths. And I guess the question is how much culpability this online circle has, you know. So, I don't know. It's – I think – I think most of the people are still following her.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: I looked at her GoFundMe, and it's still pulling in the big bucks.
JS: I'm curious to see if the cult leader if if that's like what we're going to choose to call her just from a religious history perspective. It's, it's an interesting thing to play with, especially since I'm not claiming any sort of religious background. But, as a cult leader, has she said anything in regards to either of these deaths?
K. Weill: What's interesting is, with both, she said they were government-orchestrated murders and cover-ups.
AM: Oh, boy.
JS: Okay. That's, that's a bold statement.
K. Weill: Yeah. So I talked to her actually --
JS: Dang.
K. Weill: -- yesterday via email, not on the phone. But she said that, with the first death, it was a NATO Death Squad.
AM: Oh, boy.
JS: Okay.
K. Weill: Yeah. And, with the second one, it was a vampire witch acting on behalf of the CIA.
JS: As, as a podcast who has covered vampire witches in the past, probably wouldn't do it via gunshot just saying.
K. Weill: Yeah. You'd think there'll be other tools at their disposal, you know.
JS: Like, you know, like curses and shit or blood-sucking, you know
K. Weill: Definitely.
AM: The normal ones.
JS: A much – a much easier way of going about it.
AM: But, listen, if, if you were – if you were a vampire and/or a witch in the modern-day, wouldn't it be pretty, pretty like, you know, strategic to make your kills not from like your, your primal instincts and to do it by like normal means?
JS: If I was a, you know, "evil witch" because we have a lot of practicing witches as our followers.
AM: We do. The like – the like popular conception of like evil attracts --
JS: Right. I would put a curse on them.
AM: Just because like, it's easy and you can do whatever.
JS: Right. It's easier than having someone have their girlfriend shoot them in the head or whatever. That, that just doesn't seem like a probable way of doing it.
AM: I guess I was thinking more vampire-like, you know --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- to, to --
JS: I was going to witch. You were going vampire. I know what's up.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love those like films and books and things where the vampire like gets to be friendly with the doctor, you know, or like has some kind of way around the whole conspicuous body count issue.
JS: Sure smart thing to do.
AM: The infrastructure, Julia, of horror is what I'm interested in.
JS: Yes. Yes. Okay, of course. So, now that she's said that, I'm sure that her follower kind of has – her follower count has stayed intact.
K. Weill: Yeah. I would say more or less. So, there – I think there's definitely a lot more dissent against her right now online. And I've spoken with a few people who were either adjacent to the group and have kind of watched this. Apparently, it's morphed over the years. You know, it used to be a little bit more restrained. And, you know, it was just fun and games, aliens. And it's kind of ballooned out of proportion.
JS: Sure.
K. Weill: And I am hopefully speaking soon to someone who's actually left. And there is a very small network of which the dead man, Steve, is – was part of, which is actually a kind of a dissenter group.
JS: All right.
K. Weill: And, yeah. And what's interesting about that is, apparently, as soon as you leave, you get every manner of weird allegation thrown at you. So, you know – well, you know, this isn't Bob. This is actually a clone of Bob. The real Bob is in hell. Yeah.
JS: Sorry. Sorry. I don't mean to laugh at this because it's a very serious topic.
K. Weill: It's – it is kind of like – as I've been reporting, it's been a weird control of like laughter and like, "Oh, no, this is the worst thing I've ever read."
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: But, an alien, okay. Like it's weird.
AM: Yeah. Just something about that word makes you think like, "Oh, okay. We're in like playtime now."
JS: Right.
K. Weill: Right.
AM: Actually, this is very, very serious.
JS: It's almost like a less serious Scientology.
AM: Yes.
JS: Whereas Scientology will go after your family and your finances and your very physical things. These people are just saying you're a clone. That's not really you.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Or, you're a weird alien creature or whatever.
AM: And like, once you buy into the fact that there are, you know, in your mind – and you're imagining all these kinds of like alternate reality type stuff and like the way we look at the world isn't necessarily the way it is. Like I see how that can be really frickin’ super terrifying. And there's almost like – how do you refute that allegation?
K. Weill: Right. And I talked to someone who has never been part of – part of this specific, if you want to call it, a cult, but was friends with Steve, the man who died. And what she said is that Sherry, basically, controls people by holding the, the promise of heaven over them. Being like, hey, you know, she – Sherry calls herself a prophetess. Being like, "Hey, you don't have to agree with me, it's fine. But you might not go to heaven."
JS: Right.
K. Weill: And that's tough. And I think another component of this is, once you're – once you've bought into this world with you and your close circle of friends either online or offline, it's really hard to leave that you know.
AM: Yeah, man.
K. Weill: It's, it's – that's your family almost.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: So, I think it's like the one-two punch of like, "Oh, wow, the physical world is gonna suck for me for a minute because all my friends are over there, and they're calling me a witch." And the other punch is like, "Hey, I might not go to heaven because I'm not actively fighting the aliens with my friends." So, it's very alluring to just stick with it.
AM: That's like the worst of both worlds.
JS: Yeah. Seriously, it is taking away your future if that – if you believe in an afterlife. That's definitely your – part of your future.
AM: A thing. Yeah.
JS: And it's taking away your present which is your friends and family, who are also involved in this religious group.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it is scary as hell.
AM: And like it is such a – also, like psychological and social bonding experience to be like we know and those people don't. And it must feel – I don't know. Like I haven't experienced this myself, but it must feel really – like lovely and powerful to meet a group of people who share something that maybe you thought was, you know, just you or to come across – like to, you know, discover the truth and to figure that out, you know, in kind of community with people.
K. Weill: What I think was really interesting is watching Steve, again, the man who passed away, and his friends who also left. Their attempts to take down this cult leader, Sherry, without totally taking down the belief system. And I think it's interesting sort of the way they were trying to disentangle their beliefs from this woman because, again, if you believe in a full religious system, a whole way that the world is, that's probably harder to extract yourself from than just, you know, one person. You can say, "All right. She's, she's gone off the deep end or something like that." So, I think what both of them were saying in their videos was much more restrained than I would have been if someone called my loved one a reptilian or saying, "Hey, I don't want vengeance against her. I just want people to know the truth."
JS: Right.
AM: Yeah.
K. Weill: And that's the trouble I think. It's when you wake up. And you're like, "Oh, All my friends are still in there." How do you – it's already absurd. How do you express to them it's absurd? Because you were just there.
AM: Yeah. And, from like argue – like an argument point of view too, it's a lot to say to someone your whole worldview is wrong, and also this person is dangerous. If you're able to kind of make us – make a, you know, a soft version of that and say like this person is dangerous. I'm not gonna like try to tear the whole rug out from underneath you. But like, hey, you know, just know that this is – this partial thing is something that they can, you know, discuss and maybe change your mind on.
JS: Yeah. And we – if we talk about for a second just the pillars of what creates a cult from a scholarly perspective --
AM: Yeah, let's do that.
JS: -- charismatic leadership is one of the most important things that a cult can have. 100 percent. You can see it if you're looking at, for example, the Oneida community from Upstate New York. They started out as a paradise sex cult.
AM: They sure did. And then they made really beautiful silver.
K. Weill: This is wild. I, I'm like from near. I don't know about this.
JS: You know the Silver Company – the Oneida Silver Company?
K. Weill: I've heard of it.
JS: Yes.
K. Weill: I’m about to learn something.
JS: So, they originally started out as a sex cult, which basically this dude believed that marriage didn't exist because it wasn't mentioned in Genesis. And, so, Paradise in Eden does not include marriage. So, basically, they believed that they could create, you know, perfect human beings that would then lead to the rapture by having these like very open sexual relationships. It's a literal --
K. Weill: Which isn't the worst idea, but like I feel like it veered off.
JS: It was a little bit eugenics, which, you know, gets a little creepy at the end. But, basically, this guy was dying at the end. He was the charismatic leader. But, in the situation where he was trying to pass off the leadership to his son and his son wanted nothing to do with it, the actual cult ended up failing because the charismatic leadership did not transfer. And, therefore, they were just like we're just going to be a silver company from now on. So, the sex cult died. Silver company was born because charismatic leadership stopped. So, in this situation, it's actually interesting that you talk about discrediting the, the religious leader in the situation, but trying to keep the beliefs intact, because that could, in fact, be a transfer of charismatic leadership without trying to like mess with the beliefs.
AM: Yeah. But it would be like if Steve was saying, you know, this woman doesn't know the truth. I know the truth. Come on over. That could be a sort of power play.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: I don't think it was even that.
AM: Yeah.
K. Weill: You know, I think – I think this happened so quickly. It's what makes me pretty sad. And what's fascinating is he was always – he was always a YouTuber. So, for a long time, he was documenting – I mean it's 9/11 truth truism.
JS: Yes.
K. Weill: And it's – the president is an alien. And it's all that. And then it was all under the sort of the talking points of this cult if you want to call it that. And --
AM: And their press packet.
K. Weill: Right.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
K. Weill: And yeah. And, so, he had those skills. And he pretty much immediately just started cataloging the, the fallout as it was going on on Facebook. So, we have the screenshots of all the arguments back and forth and the minutiae of who called who – who a reptilian. And, yeah, I think he wasn't so much interested in taking on the leadership. And just being like this happened to me and, you know, just defending himself I think is a common refrain he had. He's like I have the right to defend myself. Like what, what amazed me was he was actually very civil about it in the messages he showed to Sherry. And one line that like – I hate to say it, but it almost – it almost cracked me up with how restrained it was. He said I don't appreciate you calling my girlfriend a reptilian. With all due respect, I take offense to that. It was just – I'm like --
AM: He tried so hard to preserve it. Yeah.
K. Weill: Absolutely. I wouldn't say – again, I would not say that if someone called a loved one a reptilian. So, it was – it seemed like a very good faith, almost understated effort to sort of – to talk sense into people. But, again, it's very hard to do that when you have the whole group that's bought into it. And, in fact, something else said is these videos have been widely viewed and members of the group have gone back and played the videos in reverse to listen to Satanic messages, which, of course, they found.
JS: Of course.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Naturally.
K. Weill: Yeah. So, it's – you know, there's very little he can put out that's not a sign to people who interpret everything as, you know, this --
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: -- this sign from Satan or whatever.
AM: What are some other hallmarks of cults besides the charismatic leader?
JS: Charismatic leadership is a very important one. You're also going to find a new interpretation of old, old stories. So, based --
AM: Oh, so, not just like whole cloth, makeup their stuff.
JS: Right. So, in a situation where – let's say it's Scientology, because Scientology, for the most part, was a completely whole cloth thing. So, in the instance of L. Ron Hubbard, not everything is full cloth. He does pull some ideas from reincarnation and Eastern religion and that sort of thing.
AM: Yeah. He tries to present a like unified theory of the world as it already is. Only, "Oh, no, no, this is the thing."
JS: But dude was also a science fiction writer. So, a lot of --
AM: Oh, yeah. No.
JS: -- what his religion became was basically science fiction.
AM: It's, it's 100 percent cray. And, if folks haven't read the book, Going Clear --
JS: It's an excellent book.
AM: -- by Lawrence Wright It is like one of the best books of reporting I've ever read. The documentary is great, HBO, but the book is also incredible.
JS: But, if you look at a lot of cults that move from Christianity to cult, almost all of – in the situation --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- that is almost exactly what this is. But almost all of the cults that move from Christianity to cult derived from different interpretations of Genesis.
AM: Yeah. Sort of back to fundamentals type situation.
JS: In particular, like the first couple of chapters.
AM: Right.
JS: Yeah. It's super, super interesting actually. So, Christian Science, for example --
AM: Right.
JS: -- is one of those ones that believes that, "Oh, you know, they specify somewhere in Genesis that we don't actually have bodies. So, our bodies don't exist. And we can heal through prayer because our bodies don't exist." And that's a completely different thing. Seventh Day Adventist are a different thing just based off of how we view the God creating the universe in seven days, that sort of thing.
AM: That name is very descriptive. Thank you, name.
JS: Thank you, name. You did a good job. Good job naming your cult. A+. Good work. But, yeah, those are two of the fundamental parts. I'm forgetting the third there is definitely a third pillar, but I will --
AM: Is it like isolation from friends and family?
JS: Not necessarily though, because not all cults make you isolate from friends and family.
AM: Interesting.
JS: It's very much – that's a very much a like 80s, 90s idea of cults --
AM: Oh, really.
JS: -- where cults are a bad thing. And they're going to take you away from your families.
AM: Right.
JS: And they're going to try and pull you away into this evil, evil universe. Cults, by definition, are not a bad thing. So --
AM: Just a precise --
JS: So, you know, like Christianity, when it first started, was a cult of Judaism. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a different belief that is an offshoot and doesn't have enough followers for it to be called a specific religion.
AM: Wow. I – we're going to get some tweets about that.
JS: So, like cults are baby religions basically. And, if they --
AM: Right.
JS: -- you know, form enough followers, and they form, you know, a charismatic leadership chain and stuff like that, that makes them a religion.
AM: I see. And just the way we talk about them so often – like they come into the news or into kind of popular imagination when tragic or sensational stuff goes down.
JS: Hell yeah.
AM: So, I see how I would think like, "Oh, yeah, like it's isolating, and it's toxic, and, you know, all these things --
JS: Not necessarily.
AM: -- because those are the ones that we just happen to have heard about."
JS: Hell yeah. And that's very much a new generational thing. It probably started in the 60s, became very popular in the 80s and 90s. And then just, you know, to where we are now.
AM: That idea.
JS: It kind of died down a little bit.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Hopefully.
K. Weill: I mean, yeah, I think this is a perfect case of a cult that can exist, you know, pretty integrated with the rest of the world, because it's mostly online. The, the leader is based in Ohio, but Steve lived in Pennsylvania. So, I mean you can still interact with it. And you can still be part of this really immersive world as long as you're there online. And, you know, you can still be living with your family.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: Something that I think a lot of people seem to share in this group was that it sometimes offers solutions to problems that, “Hey, you know, those are legitimate.” So, you know, the young woman, who died about four and a half years ago, I was reading her blog. And I think one of her first posts was about like, you know, people are so dependent on fast food that we're not eating real foods. And I'm like, “Hey, you know, as a concerned millennial, I kind of feel that.”
JS: Yeah.
AM: Grain of truth. Right.
K. Weill: Right.
JS: The New York Post just put out an article about how fake food, you know, infiltrates all food basically at this point.
K. Weill: Right. I – what have I had to eat today? I've had like eight granola bars and like some trail mix. I'm like I don't know what any of this is.
AM: Those are not food.
JS: Sushi, that was definitely not the kind of fish that they said it was.
K. Weill: The Duane Reade Sushi, that's the --
JS: Oh, god, no. That's a horrifying idea.
K. Weill: Yeah. So, I mean, if you can – if something can offer you a – an easy solution to something that's a pretty obvious and endemic problem, yeah, that's an easy hook. And I think maybe it's, it's a few steps from there to aliens, but it's maybe fewer than you think.
JS: Yeah. There are some great alien cults. But, basically, the point I want to bring up is it's so interesting how the role of the internet now plays in religious like freedom and also religious expansion. It's not like Joseph Smith had to travel across the world in order to convert people to Mormonism.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Now, you can just put up a blog post and people across the nation and across the world will be, you know, being like, "Oh, I, I agree with that. That makes sense in my mind," you know. And it's just – it's fascinating. And it's going to change the world of religion I think.
AM: Yeah. I mean, just from that I think, excellent example, like Joseph Smith went bankrupt or almost bankrupt a couple of times, printing, you know, his kind of testimonials.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And --
JS: He also brought way too many mummies – fake mummies.
AM: He did. He did. Later. Later. But, initially, after the tablets were found and he – you know, were found, et cetera, it doesn't matter. It's fine. Don't – I have no beef with Mormons. He had to work so hard to get his ideas out there. And there were other similarly viable, similarly like interesting ideas that people brought up at the time, but they were less good at marketing, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like the, the way and the number of people that you can get your ideas in front of is like a real factor in what religions made it and which didn't. And, so, what I'm wondering now is, with the internet being more or less, you know, democratic, obviously, some people have bigger followings than others and like they are – they are – you know, not everyone has access, et cetera. But it's probably going to be a lot more like populist in a way where the ones that end up being popular are not the like well positioned to take off ones necessarily.
JS: Sure.
AM: But just the ones where the ideas really catch on. And, so, I'm wondering what that will be. Like how will those vary from the, you know, ideas that rose in the 18th and 19th centuries?
K. Weill: I think this ends up with us like crowning Gwyneth Paltrow as a prophet.
JS: Oh, yeah. Embrace the GOOP. Embrace it.
K. Weill: It's veering in that direction really quickly. It's been fascinating.
AM: It really is. Like anti-vaxxing.
JS: Oh, god.
AM: Like all kinds of bad shit worked its way into that blog.
K. Weill: Yeah. I know an anti-vaxxer nurse, but now, now I'm going off topic.
JS: GOOP, actually, did put out an article recently, where it's like people should vax their children.
AM: Okay. Okay.
JS: So, like we can support that.
AM: Fair.
JS: Thank you, Oh, no, Ross and Carrie, for giving me that link, because they did a good job on anti-vaxxing.
AM: Yeah. Yo, if you like cults, listen to the podcast; Oh, no, Ross and Carrie. It is incredible. Two friends sort of Julia and Amanda style like genuinely join cults.
K. Weill: Oh, my goodness.
AM: And like join movements to be like, "What is this all about? Like tell me. I don't know,” you know. And they start everything with like this could be it. And this could be the truth. And, so, we're just gonna go experiment and see.
JS: They did a great one on Mormonism. They did a great one on Scientology. It was a nine-part series on Scientology. It's absolutely amazing.
AM: They like genuinely worked their way up.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: That is bold. Wow.
AM: It is really good
JS: Until they got kicked out. It was great.
AM: Until they got kicked out. Yeah. Yeah. But, no, it's really good stuff. But --
JS: They're during the Summer of UFO right now. And it is my favorite thing in the world.
K. Weill: That is amazing. You know what I think? Maybe a kind of an internet cultish mindset of not cult is, I read a lot about info wars --
AM: Yeah.
K. Weill: -- which is – so, Alex Jones, he's an incredibly charismatic leader. He's out there shouting and going red and taking off his shirt all the time.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: And he is someone who – for a certain group of people, they've been convinced that he's the truth. Right. He's the only one telling them the truth. That's what you'll get if you talk to an Infowars reader. And yeah. And, again, if you go down the – down the rabbit hole there, it's every layer of like, you know, gremlins and conspiracy you can think of. And, of course, there's always a link in the sidebar to buy our products. I think that's like maybe – that might be the modern cult.
JS: No. Alex Jones, 100 percent, fills the category of the charismatic leader and also goes after other cults, which is fascinating. So, for example, my boyfriend, Jake and I lived together. And he was talking about this crazy cult that he heard about in California, where it's all the rich people. And they sacrifice people. I'm like do they – and like, of course, at least to me, as a history major being question, like, "Oh, do they actually sacrifice people?" He's like, "Well, they burn people in effigy." I'm like, "Well, that's just a scarecrow that they're burning."
AM: Right.
JS: He's like, "Well, Alex Jones videotaped them." Like that – no, dude, come on. So – but, basically, yes, Alex Jones, in the situation, Pizzagate with the situation of just --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- any sort of thing that he's leading, where NASA has to answer things being like, "No, we don't have children, you know, sex slaves up in Mars. Like that's ridiculous."
K. Weill: Can I – can I just say that was my --
JS: Go for it.
K. Weill: -- that was my brilliant co-worker who asked NASA. And they are so mad that we asked them about that. They are --
JS: I'm so glad.
K. Weill: Yeah.
AM: You're doing good work.
JS: Good, good work.
K. Weill: Yeah. Shout Ben. But, yeah, it's, it is – I think it's probably the closest thing. I think maybe as – listen, you – if you go a few hyperlinks through Facebook – I like to do this thing because I'm just a masochist.
JS: Of course.
K. Weill: And I'd like to look at different things on Facebook.
AM: I'm super glad you do, because you can bring the best of it back to me. And I don't have to do it myself.
K. Weill: I – listen, I've got just email drafts of hyperlinks that are matching anything with. So, I'll send this on. Yeah. And you just click through, and it goes from like, "Okay, you know, Obama's a little weird to Obama's a clone. So, you know, you can just go down and --
JS: You go weird, muslim, clone, reptilian.
K. Weill: Right. That's --
JS: I feel like it's probably the breakdown.
K. Weill: That's the natural progression. And, at every stage, you have people who vehemently, you know, just are saying, "Yes, thank you. Someone's speaking the truth."
JS: I'm so glad someone pointed out that Obama is a clone.
K. Weill: Of course. Yeah. And it's – you're gonna get these people who, again, they say, "Oh wow, I finally found my people, who believe it, who aren't afraid, who aren't TPC to say Obama is a clone."
AM: Yeah.
K. Weill: And yeah. And there's, there's got to be a sense of belonging in that I'm sure.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly, bringing us back to the beginning. There is a super fine line between, you know, community and cult, between curation and filter bubble, right?
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: Yeah.
AM: Between like open mindedness and being so open and like emotionally raw that you are influenced by someone who is, you know, so charismatic that they should be careful. And it is – I don't know. Like I'm so happy that we're in the internet age, because it's so interesting. And like most of my friends are from the internet. You know, like I have – I've benefited personally directly so much from finding these communities online. And it's, it's – I don't know. I don't think that any of them are that cultive, you know. But like who knows. Who knows? Like, early YouTube, it was a little bit cultive. But --
K. Weill: Yeah.
JS: I mean we could all be super brainwashed. You don't know.
AM: We don't know. Like I, I don't know. Uh, it's, it's so – it always freaks me out a little bit to kind of look at stuff and think to myself like, "Oh, this is weird or this is not," because like it is such a subjective thing.
JS: It is.
AM: And, you know, happily no one is, you know, getting into flame wars that end in, in folks dying under, you know, dubious circumstances, but it just feels like everything is on a continuum. And, and it's, it's pretty easy to slide one way or the other.
K. Weill: Yeah. I think that was an important distinction you made that cults aren't necessarily negative. They can just be powerful communities. And that's, that's a lot of things you look at. And I'm sure it's hard to draw the line in a lot of places.
JS: It definitely is. I think it definitely is.
AM: Kind of culty, kind of cool.
JS: Kind of culty, kind of cool.
K. Weill: This all sounds like Twitter, which is kind of like just giving me shivers. I'm like, "Yep, that's, that's right. That's right."
JS: That's our hashtag. I got you. All right. Cool.
K. Weill: Uh, huh. Yep.
JS: So, Kelly, I'm interested into what kind of got you into cults in general.
K. Weill: Oh, man. Well, pretty much just being online really late at night.
JS: Sure. I mean we've all been there.
K. Weill: Yeah.
AM: Where are you online? Just like, like Facebook rabbit hole? Like which, which areas?
K. Weill: This – I think I found this thing from a Twitter rabbit hole actually. Actually, I mean not even a rabbit hole. I've got to totally credit someone I follow who --
JS: Go for it.
K. Weill: -- tweeted out just an AP Wire story with just this like bizarrely no details. It's like, "Woman shoots man. Says it had to do with a – with a cult." I'm like, "Well, you can't end it there. Come on."
AM: Someone tell me more.
JS: Hey, like come together with those facts, man.
AM: Right.
K. Weill: Yeah. I don't know. I think like, just overall, I spend too much – too much time on the internet. So, you know, it starts pretty conventionally. Like you're on Twitter or Facebook or Reddit. And, you know, you just like asking the questions or sometimes the question is like you're, you're looking at someone that you haven't spoken to in seven years. It's like why are you the way that you are.
JS: A bit more on Facebook. Interesting.
K. Weill: And you just – and you just click through things. And you're like, "Okay. Okay." And, just like I said, you know, you're just like hyperlinking all the way down. It's like, "Oh, wow, I never even heard about that." And I – I mean like, right now, because I have a lot of people I'm talking to in like cult adjacent things, the prominent thing is that – oh, man, I feel horrible. Chester Bennington I think.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Oh, yeah.
K. Weill: Yeah. The former – the --
JS: Linkin Park.
K. Weill: Linkin Park. Thank you. Who died of suicide earlier this week I think. And people are saying that he was the illegitimate son of John Podesta, who had him killed. This is – I mean it's not something – it's not something to joke about --
AM: Right.
K. Weill: -- but it's something that you look at it and, having just sort of been in contact with people who are conspiracy theorists, watching this sort of seed of an idea spread out over the course of a week.
AM: Oh, no. Oh, no. Contain it.
K. Weill: Yes. And to watch it almost become kind of cannon --
AM: Yeah.
K. Weill: -- among people. Like it's, it's, it's interesting. It's kind of sad. But, yeah, I mean I think weird stuff begets other weird stuff.
JS: That is true.
K. Weill: I mean I can't even say that with like my, my advertisements right now – my Google Ads because I've been looking at weird conspiracy videos.
JS: I'm sure they're super at this point.
K. Weill: It's like, "Are you sure Hillary Clinton isn't building a bunker?" I'm like, "Well, I don't know."
JS: And like I think she probably is, but --
AM: Probably did this one already under her house.
JS: Yes.
AM: But it all makes sense.
K. Weill: Right.
JS: Those Clintons definitely have a bunker though .
K. Weill: Yeah. Okay. Point conspiracy theorists, but, yeah --
JS: You know, the security – the Secret Service totally built them a bunker.
AM: That's what I'm saying.
K. Weill: Absolutely.
JS: Seriously though. Seriously though.
AM: There's an escape room. Right. Right. Right.
JS: I think 20 or 30 years ago there was a bunker built for the Clintons.
K. Weill: If I had the resources, I'd have a bunker. I have no qualms about that.
AM: Same. Dude, why not?
JS: Same.
AM: No downsides to having a bunker.
K. Weill: Absolutely.
JS: I, I walk around my neighborhood where my work is. I'm like, "Okay. So, there's three areas. There's three buildings that have the like, in case of nuclear fallout, you can go here.
AM: Oh, yeah. No. Those are --
JS: I'm like I know exactly where those buildings are in my neighborhood.
AM: All over. Yeah.
K. Weill: Well, that's what's so funny. I think doomsday prepping is an element of a lot of these like --
AM: Oh, yeah.
K. Weill: -- cults who even turned religious. I mean even Mormonism. I grew up near --
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: Yeah. I grew up near where Mormonism was founded. So, I know a lot of people. And it's just – it's kind of an everyday thing though. They're like, "Yeah. You know, the cans that we keep in the garage." And --
JS: Yeah. They're like we have to have six months of --
AM: Of supplies. Yeah
JS: -- just like supplies, because, when the rapture comes, there's going to be six months of hell. We're gonna survive, and then we all get to go to heaven.
AM: Yeah. And, also, like a religion that barely survived and was on the rails and had to, you know, go across the country. Like survivalism is a fundamental part of it.
JS: Yeah. I get it. It makes so much sense. But, also, you know, in the – in the biblical sense too, it makes a lot of sense because the rapture is scary, and you want to have, you know, food for your family. And it's really cool because they'll just – they'll rotate out their pantry.
AM: Oh, yeah. No, they know what they're doing.
JS: It's insane.
AM: They know what they're doing.
JS: It's out of it.
AM: Costco was kind of made for Mormons in that way.
JS: Costco was made for Mormons. That is gonna be our Twitter poll thing.
AM: And, listen, thank you – thank you, Mormons. Like Costco is great.
JS: Costco rocks.
AM: Thank you, LDS. I love it so much.
JS: I want to buy 40 – 144 things of fruit leather when I go there. That's a thing. Fruit leather is a thing. Don't give me that look.
AM: Sure. Sure. I was just very delighted by the fact that you were like not 44, a 144.
JS: It's 144 because it's 12 multiple of 12.
AM: It's 12x12, y'all. Oh, yeah. No. No.
JS: Thank you. Thank you.
AM: There we go.
JS: It is all-hands there because we had a moment of multiplicity.
AM: I know what you're going for.
JS: Good.
AM: But my senior thesis in college was on homesteaders. So, people who kind of like leave specifically like suburban or urban areas, and then go kind of off grid or semi off grid to, you know, live a like self-sustaining lifestyle.
JS: There was an HGTV – HGTV or Food Network Mom? That – the Pioneer Woman.
AM: She's Food Network.
JS: Okay. Food Network.
AM: She's great. I mean she like lives on a cattle ranch. So, that's a little bit less interesting for me --
JS: A little different.
AM: -- because it's like – it's like a pre-existing like agricultural life. Like folks who don't live on, you know, city grids, actually, like live that way. But I was interested in people who like lived in Brooklyn. And then like left everything to like go to a farm to, you know, have a totally like homemade life.
JS: I did walk into your apartment once. And you had three Pioneer Mom books just sitting on your table.
AM: I mean that sounds right.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Feels right.
AM: I, what I did basically was just like survey all of the memoirs published between like 2010 and, at the time, 2014 of homesteaders who like wrote books and were making money from book deals talking about like either how to do it or why they did it. And it was a really interesting like post-recession reactionism to like wanting to be anticonsumerist man. Like there was so many like ideological things that went into this. There were political ones in some cases. There were a lot of just like queer and kind of like, you know, alternative lifestyle folks who wanted just the security of like having their own space in life and skills. So, anyway, that's a really interesting thing. And it does all come back to doomsday preppers.
K. Weill: Yeah. I mean can I just out myself here? As, after the election, I assembled a bag with my passport, a fully loaded charger, and some money. I shouldn't say this because someone's going to take it.
JS: I thought you were gonna say a fully loaded gun. I was like --
K. Weill: Oh, no.
JS: -- I mean do your thing, girl.
AM: Unexpected, but go, go ahead.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: I have – I have friends who like haven't used credit cards because they, you know, like are serious about not wanting to have their activities tracked or haven't traveled out of the country because they are non-white and are worried about harassment coming back into the country.
JS: Yeah.
K. Weill: Right. I mean, for me, it's probably illogical. I mean I live in Manhattan. Like, if something happens, I'm done. You know, I'm in the blast zone.
JS: You know what? I am gonna die no matter what.
K. Weill: But, you know, it's just that little thing. It's like, if I fill a bag, can I go look at the bag? Yes, I can go look at the bag, you know.
JS: I can disappear if I need to disappear. Yeah.
K. Weill: Yeah. I --
AM: No. I look at my Irish passport sometimes and just smile and stroke its cover because I have an escape route.
JS: Yo, I can go full Burn Notice if I need to.
AM: I can move to any country in Europe. Any. I can go wherever I want.
JS: Well, until Brexit that is.
K. Weill: Until.
AM: No, because we're grandfathered in because special relationship.
JS: Yo, high five.
AM: 20 years of that civil war has some positive consequences sometimes.
JS: Sure.
K. Weill: Yeah. No. It's just funny like the, the seeds of, you know the paranoia or what have you is just like – we all have it. At least, I definitely have it.
AM: Yeah.
K. Weill: You know, I'm like I'm ready to go if this goes – if this goes bad. I'm like --
AM: But, again, like sensibility and paranoia exist on a spectrum. And like you see someone coming at you with their hand in their pocket like on a – on a dark night, you're gonna cross the street. Maybe – you know, maybe that's not the case and whatever, but like you have that instinct in you. And like we are the descendants of the animals that were scared.
JS: Yeah. It's our monkey brains.
AM: And, and made the safe choice. And, so, it 100 percent – like, again, if you can find like a safe warm fire of people who believe the same shit that you do and feel like you are – it is you against the world and the world against you, like that is such a potent psychological combination, man.
K. Weill: Yeah. And I think one thing is – I spoke to the brother of the young woman who died. And he said that, basically, every month there was a new apocalypse scenario that she'd pass --
JS: Yeah. Yeah. K. Weill: -- you know, that was either more realistic. You know, like the Chinese are invading, which I'm not saying is realistic. But, on the continuum of Planet X's --
JS: On the – on the spectrum of a world ending --
K. Weill: Right.
JS: -- the Chinese invading is on the higher side.
AM: There are folks who live in China. That is verifiable.
K. Weill: Yes. China, China definitely exists. Whereas the other end was Planet X is gonna crash into us, and minotaurs are gonna jump off Planet X. I feel very --
JS: I mean cool.
K. Weill: Yeah. I feel Planet X crashing into us would just do it. We wouldn't need the minotaurs to --
JS: But the minotaurs have to hit every other part of the planet that didn't get hit with the other planet.
K. Weill: Right.Yes.
AM: Great side story. So, I have a friend who is really into the like drag community and was on Fire Island recently and was like, "Yo, Amanda, you totally missed the best party on Fire Island last night." And I was like, "Oh, like what was the party?" She's like, "Oh, it was Labyrinth themed." And, apparently, no one can think of any costume to go with labyrinths except for minotaurs. So, you look around and there's a bunch of like Fire Island bears in their 40s and 50s dressed as minotaurs.
JS: But there's David Bowie in the Goblin King. Like what the fuck are they doing?
AM: They were probably some tweaks dressed as David Bowie also.
JS: Okay.
AM: But, for the most part, they were just minotaurs.
K. Weill: Can I just say whoever stumbled across the Island of Minotaurs started their own cult and was totally --
JS: 100 percent.
K. Weill: Totally justified though. Like I've seen them. The minotaurs are there. They're real.
AM: Where in week two of that – of that cult's formation right now.
JS: It's so good.
AM: Like, honey, I have to explain so much to you about, about queers and about, about Fire Island, about dressing up, about themed parties. I'm so sorry.
JS: So, I think that was a really great modern-day cult kind of roundup. Not, not necessarily a roundup.
AM: Deep dive.
JS: But a good overview and deep dive --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- of certain aspects and kind of where we can see cults moving into the future with the internet and with community in that sense.
AM: Stay tuned.
JS: Yes. So, thank you so much, Kelly, for joining us.
K. Weill: Thanks for having me.
JS: It was great to have you. We really appreciate it. And we really appreciate you. Normally, we do stuff that was, you know, relevant in 800 BC, but you, you brought something that was really more of the now.
AM: This is like this month. Yeah.
K. Weill: Yeah.
JS: We're gonna link --
K. Weill: I'm glad, glad to bring into the modern day.
JS: Oh, I really appreciate that. And, listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode, and stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool. Don't be in a cult. Call your dad.
JS: Call your mom.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil