Episode 40: Laumes
/What makes you you? Is it the way people see you? Or who you are and the actions you pursue? For the Laumes, it’s a little bit of both. We discuss these Lithuanian goddesses, imagining people complexly, a chapter full of nipples, the word ‘tweak’, rainbow ribbons and more this week on Spirits!
MERCH MERCH MERCH! http://spiritspodcast.com/merch ! Kinda Creepy Kinda Cool shirts and Water Spirits pins are available for preorder through August 4th, and will be on sale at DFTBA.com after that too.
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. To read up on us, listen to us on other podcasts, or send us a note, just head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 40: Lauma. Not lambda, which is a very cool mathematical symbol, but Lauma.
JS: Okay. Amanda was also saying llama a couple of times before we actually started recording. So --
AM: Listen, like I said last time, I don't bring the pronunciation. I bring the views.
JS: No, just don't. I love it though. So Amanda, what should we talk about first? Should we talk about our amazing patrons maybe?
AM: Always such a good way to start a day. So, I would love to welcome our newest patrons: Eve, Kristen, Hannah, David, Brandon, Erika, Lauren, and both Alexs. You guys must be twins or something because you're different people, but you're both here. Thank you also so much for joining us.
JS: Yes. And, Amanda, I think we should also thank our amazing knitting masterpieces of the rainbow supporting patrons.
AM: I'm going to switch up the order this time. Are you ready?
JS: Okay. Do that.
AM: Dylan, Julia, Debra, Katie, Sara, Megan, MCF, Kristina, Catherine, Phil, Shannon, LeeAnn, thank you so much for being our support producer-level patrons.
JS: You guys rock.
AM: We love you so, so much.
JS: That was real good.
AM: And Jules, what actually were we drinking during this episode?
JS: So, we're not going to get into it right away, but the Lauma are – they're – it's wine moms. We drank a lot of wine because --
AM: Yeah, we did.
JS: Wine moms is basically what the story is.
AM: Yeah. We talked about my wine moms. And I, I'm sort of embracing the identity into which you may slide one day. I think I'm going to be more of a martini spinster aunt.
JS: That's fine. I'm a wine mom.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. But, between the two of us, we got this covered.
JS: Yeah. I'm, I'm a sweet vodka aunt I think. Right now, I'm a sweet vodka aunt.
AM: You are.
JS: And then I will get into that wine mom territory in about 20 years.
AM: We were on the beach a couple of weeks ago. And we saw these amazing wine moms carrying around these gigantic plastic like Tervis Tumbler style wine glasses that floated.
JS: Yes.
AM: They floated.
JS: It was the perfect beach.
AM: And, also, you could like stick them – like they had a stem, but no – but no base so you could stick them into the sand, Julia.
JS: Oh, shit, I forgot about that. Oh, my god.
AM: That was the point. They're so good.
JS: So good. I need 20 of them.
AM: Different colors. Super cute. Everyone on the beach sort of flocked toward them and were like, "Where'd you get this?" And I, I am not gonna lie. I kind of want one.
JS: I need 20 of them immediately especially, since our last beach trip, like three different beers were lost to the ocean.
AM: Yeah. We may or may not have been illegally drinking beer in the ocean, but I – what I found is that, if you have a can or bottle of beer; either one, it doesn't matter. When you have to like dive under a wave to not get hit, you can just put your thumb over the hole --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- of the can or the bottle, and then no sea water gets in. Or, you could do what our friend, Eric, did and just drink a goza so that, when the water gets in, as it inevitably will, it doesn't really change the flavor.
JS: I mean he did immediately lose an entire beer and his sunglasses to a wave.
AM: Listen, let's not put the boy on blast. Moving on. When you are out on the beach this summer or winter here in the southern hemisphere, sorry, you can be rocking a kind of creepy, kind of cold t-shirt and water spirit pins.
JS: Yes. Guys, there is only one day left in our preorder. So, you need to – if you're listening to this on Wednesday like we hope you are, there is only one day left. And you need to get your orders in if you want your kind of creepy, kind of cool or your pin set.
AM: We are very hopeful that these will also be available after the preorder window is done, but we're not sure exactly when. So, if you want them shipped to you first – if you want to be in the first batch of people and maybe get a little surprise on your package – may or may not be guaranteeing that, but DFTBA is great and we're trying to line something up for you. You can preorder our merch at spiritspodcast.com/merch.
JS: Do it up. You know you want to be that trendsetter wearing the kind of creepy, kind of cool shirt.
AM: I'm so excited to get mine.
JS: Dude, I'm ready to rock those pins.
AM: Amazing. And that is our recommendation corner. It's just to buy some merch.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Thanks. We love you. So, without further ado, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 40: Lauma.
Intro Music
JS: Okay, Amanda. So, we're going to jump right into it this week.
AM: I'm sorry. Are you sure you have no more criticisms of my dating life?
JS: No, I'm good.
AM: Okay.
JS: I'm solid here.
AM: Are you sure?
JS: Yes.
AM: This is the opportunity to say it.
JS: I think we're okay.
AM: Okay. Good.
JS: All right. Sweet. So, this week I want to talk about compassion and identity, because the group of goddesses that we're going to be talking about this week are known in Latvian and Lithuanian mythologies as some of the oldest goddesses there are.
AM: Those are two very good subjects that are very ancient that we probably should be talking about. So good.
JS: For sure. And I want to talk about compassion, both compassion that we can feel for others and also how we extend it without being taken advantage of.
AM: For sure.
JS: Which you'll understand why when we kind of get through the story. But, first thing's first, let's dive into the story of the Laumes.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, let me just clarify something real quick, because I'm going to be switching back and forth. Laumes is the word for the group of goddesses as a whole. And a single goddess, as she kind of appears in certain stories, is known as a Lauma.
AM: Sort of Morrigan style.
JS: Yes.
AM: Nice.
JS: Okay. So, this is a group of goddesses. We're talking – like they're so old, Amanda, they date back to the Ice Age.
AM: Wow.
JS: Like it's right after the Ice Age. It's early mesolithic for the nerds in the crowd.
AM: That primordial stuff.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Wow.
JS: So, laumes would appear in drawings to start with as she-goats, bears, brown dogs, or mares. I did not mean for that to rhyme.
AM: You did a great job there. And I mean that makes total sense, right? Like it's, it's the commonplace animals.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Those are things that we see every single day. Of course, we're going to start by mythologizing and trying to explain those things that are most familiar to us.
JS: Sure. And, as they began to be more worshiped and more centralized, they began to appear more woman-like, but with animal features. So, bird claws for feet. Women with heads or lower bodies of goats. Half dog, half horse were also a common combination. Or, they would have one eye like the cyclops.
AM: So, my least favorite thing which is --
JS: I know. I know. It's mixing of things.
AM: -- which is mixing of animal traits, but, okay, continue.
JS: It only lasts for like 100 years or so.
AM: So, a drop in the bucket, no worries.
JS: So, one of the key features that they had early on were stone nipples.
AM: Uhmmm.
JS: Okay. I have – I have a reason for it.
AM: Okay, continue.
JS: Okay. So, what was common in the area where these fossils that were known as Belemnitida. And they kind of look like bullets, but they're really this kind of extinct shelled squid or something, and humans would call this fossiled – fossilized versions of these little baby squids, Laumes nipples.
AM: Okay.
JS: Okay.
AM: Okay. I'm with you so far.
JS: Another explanation of these fossils, because they were clearly a big deal to the early Lithuanians and the Latvians was that the Laumes once kept huge cows that they would allow all people to milk and get sustenance from. Very nice.
AM: Okay. So, like divine source of nutrition and whatnot.
JS: Yeah, sure. However, during a cold winter, all the cows of the Laumes died, and the fossils left behind were the remains of their udders.
AM: Okay. Okay. It's like this is uncomfortable, but --
JS: We're good. We're on – we're on the nipple page now. We're okay.
AM: Julia, I want to leave the nipple page. So, what is next?
JS: We're moving on. So, so, the Lithuanians considered the laumes, during this period, to be very dangerous. This is still the half animal period.
AM: Yes. Which like correct --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- because you talked in the past about how very frequently the marker of a demon, regardless of the culture that that demon is in, is a sort of mixing of animal and human in a way that's unexpected or creepy or just like not natural.
JS: Yeah. Hell yeah. So, the laumes were very dangerous, particularly, to men, which is always good. Sign me up for that.
AM: What's up?
JS: Laumes would tickle or tweak people usually men to death.
AM: On their nipples or elsewhere?
JS: Wherever I guess. I mean like, if we're going to do nipple tweaking, I guess we'll stay there.
AM: I mean I hear the word tweaked, Julia. I don't know what else to think about it. It's – if you’re happy with their nipples. I don't know.
JS: All right. Well, they would tweak or tickle them to death. I know that's nipple.
AM: Never say that word again.
JS: So sorry.
AM: So, tickle. Right.
JS: And then eat their bodies.
AM: Okay.
JS: And this is actually where they become very similar to the Lamia in Greek mythology, which we actually discussed in the Valentine's Day Seductress Episode.
AM: Yeah, we did.
JS: Do you remember that at all?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Do you remember anything about the laumes?
AM: No.
JS: No. Okay. The laumes was basically a woman who, through some means, insulted Hera.
AM: Aaaah.
JS: And then Hera would turn their – she turned her basically into a monster that would eat children.
AM: Got it.
JS: Are we good?
AM: Yes. Yes.
JS: We're on the same page now.
AM: Yes.
JS: Okay. Great.
AM: Not the nipple page. The next page.
JS: No. We're on --
AM: Okay.
JS: We're on the eating children now instead.
AM: Okay. Much better.
JS: Clearly.
AM: It's just uncomfortable. I don't know.
JS: So, one of the ways of keeping laumes at bay was by keeping iron tools around, because they feared iron. And this is interesting, because it ties back to certain stories about the fey that were unable to touch iron or iron was poisonous to them.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Do you remember the Holly Black books that were about like fairies being poisoned by iron?
AM: I sure do. They were really, really, good, and I super liked them.
JS: Yes.
AM: I recommend them.
JS: Yes. They were very, very good.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I think Tithe was the first one, but I could be wrong. Amanda's gonna look.
AM: It's Tithe, the Valiant, and Ironside.
JS: Yes. That was it.
AM: So, good. I really recommend books.
JS: They were very good books.
AM: Holly, get in touch.
JS: It's later on that the laumes become depicted as beautiful women, who usually appeared either naked or in very fine clothing because, you know, that's how we do women in these stories usually.
AM: Yeah. The like long arc of mythology bends toward sexy women draped in fabrics.
JS: It does. It does. It really does. The laumes were said to --
AM: Surprise. It's a selkie. You're gonna die.
JS: Well, kelpies. Kelpies will kill you. Selkies will just marry you, have your babies, and then leave you. Yeah.
AM: I mean social death though.
JS: I mean social death. Yeah. Your wife just left you and ran into the ocean. That's cool I guess.
AM: Yikes.
JS: So, laumes were said to have descended from the sky to the Earth.
AM: Okay.
JS: They would live near lakes, abandoned bath houses, on islands, on lakes, or in dense forests.
AM: So --
JS: But like there's a water thing there.
AM: I was just going to say water is very important. And how did they conceive of the sky? Was it like the big ocean to which we all return? Like what was the tie in there?
JS: I think she actually, later on, gets associated with a rain god --
AM: Huh!
JS: -- and with rainbows. I'll tell you a little bit about that later.
AM: Okay.
JS: But, yeah, that is like --
AM: I'll shelve my question.
JS: Yes, thank you. Shelve that question. Put that, that back on the shelf.
AM: Back burner. We got it.
JS: Like a good book.
AM: But it's simmering.
JS: Like a Holly Black book.
AM: It's simmering. Don't worry. Holly Black is on my second shelf in my whole library.
JS: I know. Well, also, because your thing is done alphabetically.
AM: Yes. Yes, that's true.
JS: Yes. Cool. Okay. So, laumes, a lot of bodies of water in Lithuania are actually named after a lauma or give homage to the goddesses.
AM: Wow.
JS: Laumes were said to have gathered near bodies of water on the night of either a new or full moon, where they would dance and kind of just throw a rave.
AM: I mean who wouldn't?
JS: I mean yeah.
AM: Lakeside party. Love it,
JS: And there would be sort of a fairy ring left over after some raves --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- which would be an indication that the laumes were there.
AM: Do you know what the equivalent is for our childhood, Julia?
JS: No.
AM: So, Julia and I lived in a town with three elementary schools and one middle school. The second middle school that there used to be in that town was like sort of abandoned and like converted into a like Adult Education Center.
JS: Oh, okay.
AM: And, so, high schoolers would have parties in the woods behind that old middle school. I think it was a high school.
JS: It was a high school.
AM: Who knows. But, anyway, the semi-abandoned, semi-converted into like administrative office of school. And, at some point during – I never went to one of these because I wasn't cool enough to be invited.
JS: I was gonna say I've never been there.
AM: No, no no. Me neither. My siblings went since they were very young, but like, obviously, they're much cooler than I am. But the like evidence left behind was like the circle of like Natty Light cans left --
JS: Yep.
AM: -- in the like forest floor, you know, off the side of the parkway as, as kids would run from the cops.
JS: Yep, sounds right. Feels right.
AM: Anyway, we've made lots of --
JS: The modern day laumes are just teenage kids.
AM: We led a less glamorous life than the laumes did.
JS: That's true. So, the laumes are said to be the most powerful during the new moon --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- and even more so during the rainiest month in Lithuania.
AM: Water, makes sense.
JS: Yeah. Laumes were said to cause hail storms or rain by singing, dancing, or through curses, because they could do that.
AM: Awesome.
JS: Awesome. Into it. In weddings up until the 19th century, laumes songs were performed, where a group of girls would dance in a circle with one girl, usually the bride, in the middle.
AM: Wow.
JS: And this dance and song were said to cause rain and to bring good fortune.
AM: That's amazing. It's like the mix between a flower girl, a fairy ring, and like a maple, you know.
JS: I'm kind of into that.
AM: I am kind of into too. And maybe I missed it. But why – where's the distinction between one lauma and multiple laumes?
JS: So, up until this point, laumes is the group of goddesses --
AM: Right.
JS: -- or spirits. They're kind of in the middle at this point. I'm actually about to get to a story where we're having an individual lauma.
AM: Oh, okay.
JS: All right. Cool. So, later, stories in Lithuanian mythology take the laumes and combine them into the one singular atmospheric goddess known as the lauma.
AM: Got it.
JS: There we go. Are we good?
AM: I, I did not know you were going there.
JS: No. No, it's okay.
AM: But I'm glad I got there. Yeah.
JS: That's all right. So, she is described as extremely beautiful. And she lived in the clouds and ruled on a diamond throne.
AM: Amazing.
JS: I know. I'm so into the aesthetic.
AM: I am super into that also.
JS: So, most stories claimed that she was the bride of the thunder god, Perkunas.
AM: Sounds like percussion. I'm into that.
JS: All right. That's actually – that's a good point. I would not have guessed that.
AM: Hey.
JS: Though, whether or not they were actually married depends on the story.
AM: Okay.
JS: In some tales, lauma falls in love with the moon, which is a male god in Lithuania.
AM: Really?
JS: Lauma, therefore, is said to love moonlight.
AM: Okay.
JS: Another story actually says that she was stolen before the wedding by Velnias, which is a kind of devil in their mythology that was named Tuolius.
AM: Wow. I mean it makes sense that I think moonlight and water would go together. The idea of like skinny dipping under a moon.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like it's romantic. It's interesting. I like that a lot.
JS: It's also really gorgeous, because, you know, the water reflects the moon and all that.
AM: Exactly.
JS: It's very beautiful.
AM: Exactly.
JS: But let's talk about a story where lauma actually marries Perkunas. In this story, she's also known as Vaiva --
AM: Okay.
JS: -- and is associated with rainbows. In Lithuanian, the rainbow literally translates as the ribbon of Vaiva.
AM: Man, I love that – those little like historical and mythological nuggets buried in language. Like that is amazing.
JS: It's really cool.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I love that so much. There's another one like later on that's really, really good.
AM: I'm so excited.
JS: So, she is married to Perkunas, but she falls in love with a man named, Straublys --
AM: Okay. Awkward.
JS: -- who was a singer.
AM: Yep.
JS: So, Straublys is a mortal. He is a mortal, not immortal.
AM: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Classic. Always got to fall in love with a mortal.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like falling in love with the like slacker stoner or the like, you know, student who wants to play guitar and not be on the football team.
JS: I mean obviously.
AM: I've been watching Riverdale, guys. It's true. It's true.
JS: Oh, god. Really?
AM: Yep.
JS: Okay.
AM: It's great.
JS: All right. We'll talk about it later I guess.
AM: Y'all, I, I am not gonna lie to you. It is highly entertaining.
JS: I think I saw the first two episodes. It was like, "Hmm, meh."
AM: I'm like there's a murder, but also a significance of plot is that one of the main characters wants to play guitar and not on the football.
JS: I do know that that's Archie.
AM: And I'm like, "Bro, you, you can be both. You can be [Inaudible 15:23] both. [Inaudible 15:24].
JS: Okay. So, Straublys gains Vaiva's attention by stealing the ribbon of Vaiva. So, he literally steals a rainbow from her, and it's during a rainstorm. So, he stretches the ribbon across the sky.
AM: Wow.
JS: And Perkunas sees his wife's ribbon, grows angry, and shouts down at the man.
AM: Okay.
JS: But his shouts become thunder.
AM: Ooooh.
JS: And, so, the Lithuanian shepherds below believe the rainbow has caused the rain and prayed of Vaiva and Perkunas to break up the rainbow and make the rain go away.
AM: So, I see that they ship the marriage then. They want --
JS: They do. They ship the marriage. The shepherd ship the marriage. It’s the hearts that’s just the same.
AM: I'm not gonna attempt to repeat it, because I won't be able to.
JS: No. Okay. So, that's the story with the Straublys.
AM: Okay.
JS: He just – he steals it. She's kind of like, "I'm into that," but also Perkunas comes in. He's like, "Nah."
AM: Fair enough. It could end a lot worse.
JS: It could.
AM: If this is the – if this is a Greek myth, it'd be like, "Oh, you and everyone you love is dead."
JS: Yes.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Well, wait for this next one.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, another story claims that lauma fell in love with another beautiful young man down Earth, another mortal.
AM: Okay. I see she has a type, mortal.
JS: They, they had a son named Meilius --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which derives its meaning from the word Meili, which is to love.
AM: Oooh.
JS: So, lauma would descend from the sky to feed her son from time to time, though he remained with his father. Kind of like a Hercules situation.
AM: Yeah.
JS: However, when the highest god in the Lithuanian pantheon finds out about the sacrilegious union and the child that was born from it --
AM: Sure.
JS: -- he takes the child and smashes him into highest place in the sky.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: And he becomes a constellation. I don't know what constantilation it is --
AM: Hey.
JS: -- but, you know, just the typical like, "I'm gonna put you up there. And, now, you're gone."
AM: The, the backburner.The top shelf. Yeah.
JS: I like it quite a lot. In this story too, we also get another explanation for the Belemnitida or whatever, the fossils, the nipples.
AM: God, Julia, don't bring it up again. Why? Why?
JS: So, the king – the king god cuts off lauma's breasts as punishment for keeping the relationship hidden. And the stone pieces can be found on the Earth.
AM: Yikes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Why, why with the nipples, Lithuania?
JS: There's just – there's just a lot of them around. So, they had to give a reason for it.
AM: I mean they could be finger shaped.
JS: No. No.
AM: They could be toe shaped.
JS: No, they're nipples, man.
AM: That, that literally would never come to mind.
JS: I will show you a picture of them later, but I – nipples, man. I don't know. Sorry. We said nipples so many times in this episode.
AM: Please stop.
JS: Okay. So, because they are often portrayed in very fine clothing and because the story with the ribbon of Vaiva --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- laumes are associated with weaving.
AM: Okay.
JS: They often appear in groups of three and are skilled in what the resource that I used called the women's skills --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- or the woman's work.
AM: The traditionally feminized domestic work of women. Yeah.
JS: It literally made me cringe.
AM: Yeah. No. No. I know.
JS: Okay. But they're just very good --
AM: Sewing, knitting, baking, cooking, cleaning.
JS: Well, they're very good at weaving, spinning, sewing, that kind --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- that kind of thing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Anyway, they reward people who are industrious.
AM: Cool.
JS: But they also are known to be looking out for children and helping those in need.
AM: For sure. Those things go together.
JS: Which I love. Yeah. Anyone who's lazy or ridicules them are punished, because you don't ridicule a god and just --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- you know, don't do that.
AM: And you don't ridicule the people who's like, you know, humble, hard at work every single day is making the world go round.
JS: Yeah. And, so, those people who are lazy or ridiculed the laumes are punished. One would assume it's through the tickling tweaking method, but, again – I said the word again. I'm so sorry.
AM: You just – Julia. Julia, come on. Don't.
JS: I was gonna keep saying tweaking. And Amanda is gonna [Inaudible 19:15].
AM: Please don't.
JS: Oh, god. Okay. So, their relationship with children expanded later in Latvian mythology regarding the laumes. They're seen as assistance during a birth ensuring the health and welfare of both the mother and the child.
AM: Nice.
JS: If the mother does not survive childbirth, which is, you know, a common thing back in the day --
AM: Unfortunately.
JS: -- or if they give the child up, the lauma who is watching over the birth takes up the role as a spiritual foster mother for the child.
AM: Wow.
JS: Isn't that kind of gorgeous?
AM: That's like a super beautiful godparents situation.
JS: I really like that.
AM: Wow. Side note, oddparents – Fairly Oddparents, underrated TV show from Nickelodeon.
JS: That's a really good one.
AM: That's a really good show. Also, style goals. I want a pink hat like that. Come on.
JS: You want a – you want that lesbian TV version?
AM: I super do.
JS: Yeah. There was a whole episode where she turns into – well, he turns into a girl and --
AM: Don't you know I remember that?
JS: I know.
AM: And all my early gender feelings were like, "Uhh."
JS: I get it now.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Okay. So, when a lauma is looking over a child, she spins the cloth of life for the child, which she can't control what she spins.
AM: Whoa.
JS: But it's just the fate of the child lays out.
AM: Yeah. It's so much better than palm lines.
JS: And it's really interesting because a lauma could sew something. And then like the child could die in, you know, a fever fairly young.
AM: Early. Yeah.
JS: And, so, a lauma will cry over the loss of a child because, you know, the fate is not up to her. And it's really --
AM: She's just a vessel.
JS: Yeah. It's a really interesting just portrayal of it.
AM: Geez.
JS: I think it kind of – I think of, you know, knitting and I think of, you know, if you're not paying attention, one loop goes out, and it kind of ruins the entire thing.
AM: Yeah, man.
JS: Oh, man.
AM: And that's a really good sort of allegory for parenthood also, which is, you know, you, you birth the thing into the world with your best intentions. But, at a certain point, it's not up to you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like, at a certain point – to a certain extent, things are baked into the person, you know.
JS: Yes.
AM: Or, like they're, they're – depending on the your sort of degree or your belief system, certain things are determined ahead of time. And like, at its most secular, even like their code is baked into them. And, you know, how it – how it plays out is sort of a function of both nature and nurture, but that is so interesting. Also, to be the vessel of that, like, obviously, you know, we haven't parents yet. But like, dang, that's amazing.
JS: I, I also like that so many fate deities are associated with weaving and sewing and all of that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Like I just – I love that concept so much. I love the idea of creating something. And like, you know, in this case, it's beyond your control. But, in the case of many other, you know, fate deities and stuff like that, it's very much in their control. And I just love the idea of sort of the scarf of destiny or whatever.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: The portrait that will become someone's life that is being decided by something higher than them.
AM: And, to me, like – so, the beautiful thing about weaving is, you know, you, you picture a loom, right? And at the top of the loom is a beautifully woven carpet, and the middle is the work that you're doing, and then, at the bottom, is like 10 – you know, thousands or dozens or hundreds of strings just like spooling out into the floor. And it's like you take that chaos and you create it into order. And that, to me, is what life is also. It's just taking the like unending, you know, like array of ingredients, and choosing them, and weaving them, and molding them into one path. And, so, you look behind you and the scarf of your life is behind you, but you look ahead and it's just the like multitudinousy of multicolored threads that you can be following.
JS: Yeah. It reminds me of timelines.
AM: Yes.
JS: You know, every decision we make is another splinter off of a set – like centered timeline. And, so, when you talk about that loom, you see all of the options of where these threads could possibly go. They're just hanging there. And it depends on where you weave, which ones come at the top, which ones stay in the bottom and aren't seen.
AM: And I like to – I like weaving even more than the idea of a timeline or a path, because every person's path is going to be unique.
JS: Yes.
AM: And every combination of threads that you could think of is also unique. It's not like you're following one down forever. Then it'll be like just a one colored scarf and like whatever.
JS: Boring.
AM: But – yeah, boring. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Who cares. But I really, really love that kind of framework for thinking of, you know, you with your decisions every single day knit the scarf of your destiny, which is only really visible and legible in retrospect. And, looking ahead of you, all you can think is, you know, what are the ingredients I want to choose? And what it looks like is not necessarily up to you. But what you can do is, is make the most informed best decision that you can. And, later on, reflect on what has occurred.
JS: I like that.
AM: The business of weaving, the business of knotting, they're like, you know, kinetic, interesting, perilous work of turning your inputs into, into your past. It's not really up to you. All you can do is make choices and keep going.
JS: Those are really good, you know, sidestep to the story.
AM: I'm three whiskeys in, and I am trying really hard.
JS: You're doing great.
AM: Thank you so much.
JS: And everyone's noticing. Okay. We're going to finish out the story. And then we can dive into a little bit more conversation.
AM: Let's do it.
JS: As Christianity spreads through this region, the role of the laumes, obviously, becomes more downplayed. And the images of the goddesses eventually deteriorates.
AM: Right.
JS: They were soon accused of being baby snatchers mostly by men, lots of priests, you know, cruel thing.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Who were said to steal children because they couldn't have children of their own.
AM: Oh, man.
JS: Yeah, I know. I know.
AM: What a --
JS: We'll, we'll get there in a second.
AM: What a thing. Okay.
JS: So their looks and sweetness were taken away with these retellings. And they were viewed instead as evil old hags.
AM: Wow.
JS: And the laumes become a melancholy character that longs for her beauty of her youth from then on.
AM: Wow.
JS: And, oh, my god, Amanda, this ending makes me so mad.
AM: Tell me all about it, babe.
JS: Because I just – I feel like this is the same instance we've seen so many times --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- with a goddess or a spirit that embodies something very feminine, womanly, and beautiful. But then, because she's lacking this one thing that society considers womanly, the ability to bear children in this case, she's turned into this baby snatching, witch-like character.
AM: Which also happens to be the only thing that men can lay any kind of claim to.
JS: I know.
AM: Right? Of like, "Oh, you know, you're unable to fulfill the one task that relates to me as a – as a, you know, kind of male and posing a viewpoint on to this thing. And like I mean, to the certain extent, maybe they can't help it, but also that sort of like heteronormative gross kind of like putting things into boxes perspective --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- really robs this myth of all of the things that make it incredible, which is like incredible compassion for people you aren't related to, right?
JS: Exactly.
AM: And like thinking – and thinking and caring and being invested, and, literally, using your hands to weave the future of someone that you're not necessarily supposed – you know, in air quotes, or like have to care about. And like what is humanity except for caring about people you don't have to care about?
JS: I know.
AM: Like that's it. That's the thing.
JS: So, she becomes defined by society for the one thing she can't do rather than all the things she does phenomenally; watching out for those children, weaving, bringing rain that helps harvest, all that kind of thing. And you bring up a really good point, because just it's, it's so frustrating because all she's trying to do in these later stories before she's, you know, corrupted by Christianity is she's trying to help.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She's trying to do the best she can. She's looking out for other people. She's being compassionate.
AM: Yeah. And the ironic thing is that her altruism, which is, you know, by many definitions, a Christian trait, right, of like caring for those less fortunate --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and looking for those, you know, at a kind of lower station in life. That is sort of like – I don't know – transmogrified into some kind of failed maternal instinct by the like – I mean – and, to a certain extent, that makes sense, right? Because like the unit of the family, the institution of the house, institution of, you know, church and state and all of those things, like that brought us out of the forest. And like that helped us to establish societies and to be safe. But, at a certain point, like you're safe enough that you can embrace things that are different and contradictory and uncomfortable. And I – you know, we definitely are seeing the kind of pendulum. Like we were able to identify the point at which the pendulum overswings --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- and take something that, you know, in this moment, in this day and age, we find something interesting that like there's a reason our listeners want to listen to these stories every week. You know, we, we've gone a couple centuries too far into the – I don't know – business of like making them safe and hospitable.
JS: Yeah. And I just – I guess I'm just very frustrated with this story too, because it is the quintessential no good deed goes unpunished.
AM: Ugh, for sure.
JS: You know what I mean?
AM: All for the babe.
JS: Oh, god. It's just, it's, I, I can't imagine a situation that's worse than being scrutinized for the things that you were doing your best to like help the world with.
AM: Yeah.
JS: You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah.
JS: It kind of comes down to two. Just the idea of the internet being particularly – if this person does one thing wrong, then --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- everything they, they've done up until this point is terrible.
AM: Which we call a witch hunt, which is not the worst possible allegory for the thing.
JS: No, it's not.
AM: And it's not the hunting of the witches. It's the fact of the witches.
JS: Yes.
AM: Like the fact that, you know, fertility goddesses and pagan goddesses and, and people like the laumes that we have kind of pushed into this box of witch, or hag, or crone, you know, that's like the way that we deal with errant women --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- and women who aren't a – you know, a virgin maiden and potential wife or like fertile, obedient, subservient mother. You know, once the kind of like fertility passes, then society and myth doesn't know what to do with those women. Much less a young woman who doesn't engage in any of those institutions. And, so, you know, it makes sense to me that folks on the internet, who are complicated, are kind of shoved into a box. And I had previously been kind of resistant to that term witch hunt because it sounded – I mean it's an extreme term, right?
JS: Yes.
AM: And like it sounds like it's shutting down dialogue, but just digging into the the ways in which that's mapped against what we're dealing with now, there's actually relevance here that I didn't expect.
JS: Yeah. And I think – I think you segued very nicely into the concept of identity --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- which is a really important part for the laumes, because we're talking about someone who started as nonhuman. These, these goddesses were literally --
AM: Divine.
JS: -- mirrors and dogs and stuff like that --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- beforehand. And, as they become more worshiped, as human beings can sort of identify more with them, they become more human. And then very human. And then beautiful, the ideal human.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And then, when they become obsolete or when they become, you know, too complicated for humans to deal with, we shove them off to the side by saying, "Oh, these are hags. These are children snatchers."
AM: We demonized them.
JS: We don't want them in your lives.
AM: Right.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Wow. That's a really interesting arc. I like that a lot.
JS: Yeah. And I just – the laumes is just such an interesting concept. You know, these are – these are creatures that I just – I identify a lot with the story quite a bit.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Because I think everyone has been in a situation where there – they've only been trying their best and to be their own person. And then they've been victimized for that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: You know what I mean? I'm just frustrated. I'm very frustrated with the story. I love it. It's a great story, but I'm very frustrated.
AM: And it also brings up the fact that so many of the stories and the myths that we tell, you know, the people are archetypes. And like, that's, that's what stories are. You know, it's, it's like an artificial or a representative, you know, small thing – a small story that you tell in order to teach a lesson, or to think about a concept, or to, you know, put a scary thing like death, or destruction, or loss, or betrayal into a form that your brain can hold at one time. And that doesn't really lend itself well to the idea of human beings as complex changeable people.
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- with conflicting needs, and desires, and goals, and a long life in which you can play many parts. And I think that the risk is listening to any one story as gospel. And the beautiful thing now about, you know, the world that we're living in is like there are so many stories at our disposal. There are so many cultures and mythologies that we can learn from, think about, talk critically about --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- and see ourselves in. And there are endless things on Netflix, endless books out there, you know, endless music albums that we can listen to and see different parts of ourselves. You don't have to just choose the one that stands for our whole self. And that's I think a plus of the modern age, you know, and, and the world that we're living in. But it's – you know, it's a – it's a very, very dangerous thing to ascribe one narrative to a person or, or to do that for yourself.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Because anything that villainizes change and anything that makes a person – anything that puts a person on blast for doing something different or trying on a new identity, that's just a dangerous thing to me.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Our myths need elasticity or they need to be taken in as part of a balanced diet of myths, you know.
JS: Sure.
AM: And, so, that's why I love this myth so much. It's because we do trace that whole arc of going from a, you know, unknown and kind of feared demon-esque figure to one that represents the primordial forces that were still a little bit nervous about. Like we talked last week about how childbirth is like the most instinctual animalistic – like we are creatures that come from somewhere else type act. And, so, of course there's going to be goddess associated with that a little bit too wild into something that's like desirable, made and shaped, you know, that, that you can lust after and think about, you know, dominating or holding or, or, you know, trapping in an institution. And then finally to something that is so out of our control that we have to kind of push it in a box and lock it up in a hut, you know, and, and leave it there to be scary.
JS: And I think your favorite Walt Whitman quote definitely applies here.
AM: We contain multitudes.
JS: We do. We contain multitudes. And I think that the laumes creates a very interesting and very – almost cautionary tale for us. We, we can be all of these things, but we shouldn't allow people to put us in these boxes and you know, vilify us just because we are different than what they expect.
AM: And, furthermore, I think we should be alert in our own selves of the box that we put other people into.
JS: That's true.
AM: Where, you know, our, our brains, evolutionarily, are really good at patterns.
JS: Yes.
AM: And we're really good at putting things into boxes. And we're really good at assessing something complex or something very, very quickly and putting it into boxes we can understand. And that helps us – you know, that helps us to distinguish threat from friend, you know, and, and whatever. And that helps us to distinguish friend from foe and threat from opportunity, but it's also something that we have to like actively resist every single day.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's thinking like that is the maiden. That is the hag. You know, that is the demon. That is a romantic object. That is not.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, and to realize that like, you know, if we're lucky, we're going to fill so many of those things over the course of our lives. And understanding that every single person is at a different point in their own journey. And they have contained multitudes, and they do contain multitudes, and their future contains multitudes. That their scarf can go anywhere, and has come from so many choices. And like every person is just meeting one another at a different stage in their journey. That just like – that perspective has – at least personally, like that's changed my whole life. And that's what the – the direction of my adult life. It's just choosing to approach the world with that perspective.
JS: Right. And just understanding that everyone else has that perspective too. Everyone else is an individual person that has individual thoughts and individual past that is put then into the situation into this place right now.
AM: Both of us are members of the Nerdfighter community. And I remember we were in Florida I think one year in 2008 maybe --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- 2009. And we binged Brotherhood 2.0, which was a web series by John and Hank Green. And, you know, it was – it was formative for me for so many reasons. And we now work with them to do our merch. And that's like a very incredible like, life circle thing. But --
JS: Yeah, but that story that John tells about his wife.
AM: Exactly.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and how they met, and how they kind of think and talk about themselves. But another sort of thing that that taught me was imagining other people complexly.
JS: Yes.
AM: And that's a term that John talks about a lot. Their companies is now called, Complexly. Like it's, it's important to them for a reason. And that was the first time in that YouTube video that I sort of saw the thought really put out there. You know, whatever. I was 15 or 16. That other people are the center of their own universes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I was like, "Oh, Jesus," like – oh – like I had never considered that before. Like that had never been told to me.
JS: Everyone else is the main character in their own story. What the fuck?
AM: Exactly. Like, oh, god, that makes so much more sense now.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, then it makes it easy to say that the person who cut me off in traffic has somewhere they really need to be. And like, you know, just going to that place in my head instead of the, "Oh, this person is an ob – is an obstacle or an antagonist or a subplot or a side quests in my own life." Like, I can't help but approach life as the protagonists in my own story.
JS: Yes.
AM: But what I can do is remember and to force myself to reckon with the fact that every single other person is also the protagonist of theirs.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And that's not only like a nice thing. Like it's nice to do. It's altruistic. Whatever. But it also makes my life easier. Like it's just easier to talk to people and to live in the world and to spend less energy on stuff that you can't control if you realize that every single person is doing their best for themselves and, hopefully, for their view of the world and what it needs. And, when we can align those values, awesome. When I can help someone else out, great. Like, if I can be a real great and lucky like mystery box that they stumbled upon in their day, you know, that's, that's what I want to be.
JS: I like that quite a lot. Yeah. Stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack bearings.
JS: If you liked the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil