Episode 223: The Tale of Princess Kaguya (Myth Movie Night)
/When you put on a Studio Ghibli film, you don’t expect to be talking about aliens and proto-science fiction in 9th century Japan. But that didn’t stop us! We gush over this retelling of a classic Japanese folktale, and lay out the details of a buck wild Third Act twist.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, infertility, suicide, natural disasters, infidelity, misogyny, strict gender roles, arranged marriage, child birth/pregnancy, deadly falls, unwanted sexual advances, alien abduction, and beheading.
Housekeeping
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 223: The Tale of Princess Kaguya for our Myth Movie Night.
Julia: Oh, Amanda, I feel like it's been a minute since I've sat down and watched a Miyazaki film. And this was such a good one to kind of reintroduce myself to it that I'm so excited to talk about this.
Amanda: It really transports you. And I feel – maybe because the first Miyazaki movie that I watched was Kiki's Delivery Service, but the first, as an adult, was Spirited Away, where I feel that moment of, like, entering a new realm. That is just so strongly, for me, associated with these movies. And it is always such a pleasure. And this one in particular has so much folkloric backstory. And I'm very excited to talk about it.
Julia: Yeah, it's gonna be great.
Amanda: Also, great are our new patrons; Kat, A. Viitala, and Cassie. Thank you very, very much for making room in your life and budget to support creators you love. That's very exciting and we love you back. And thank you as well to our supporting producer level patrons whose support sustains us and carries us through; Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, SamneyTodd, Sarah, and Skyla. And, Julia, cannot forget those legend level patrons who definitely would not beam me back up to the moon; Audra, Drew, Jack Marie, Ki, Lada, Mark, Morgan, Necroroyalty, Renegade, Sanna, and Bea Me Up Scotty.
Julia: I would go ahead and get them a jeweled branch from a distant land and not fake it and then not pay the people who made it.
Amanda: Hell yeah. I would kind of sow gold in their gardens.
Julia: Nice. I love.
Amanda: And, speaking of gifts, Julia, is there anything that you have enjoyed reading, watching, and listening to this last week?
Julia: Amanda, Blaseball is back.
Amanda: Blaseball is back.
Julia: I'm so excited. I love Blaseball so much. They went on such a long break. And the fact that it's back now brings such joy to my life.
Amanda: It's like a website that you can watch and stay updated on that has no consequences whatsoever. And that is so freeing. And I love them so much.
Julia: But it also has all the consequences, Amanda. It so good. It's—
Amanda: Exactly.
Julia: You can invest as much as you want into Blaseball and that's what I really liked. They also added some new teams, which shout out to the Ohio Worms.
Amanda: Incredible. We, we love you worms. You are a vital part of the ecosystem.
Julia: They're fantastic. They're not my favorite team because I'm Hellmouth Sunbeams until I die, but the Atlantis Georgias are an incredible team. It's a very good name.
Amanda: It is the best name ever. And I just – I also want to give special consideration to the Worms because, like Ohio, you are vital, but people overlook you. I'm glad that you're in the league. But, listen people, baseball is incredibly fun. You do not have to like baseball to like it. It is, like, fantasy sports for nerds and people who like mythology and fantasy. And we know that you are in that group. So, go to blaseball.com. It's like baseball but with an extra L, blasball.com, and check it out. And please tweet us your team affiliations. We would love to see them because we are just so invested in this very consequential sport.
Julia: Hellmouth Sunbeams till I die.
Amanda: If in doubt, the Hellmouths are a good thing for Spirits listeners to join.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: And, finally, we also just want to remind you guys that, if you are creative, or trying to start a project, or trying to grow something you started over the last year, or just want to learn more about how stuff that you enjoy online is made, Multitude publishes, like, dozens of free resources for creative people of all kinds. We have articles. We have free recordings of panels and workshops that we've given at conferences, which you had to pay to get into but you can just listen to it for free. And there is a ton of stuff there for you We also publish a affordable kind of podcast starter kit. So, if you are wanting to start a podcast or you've started one and you want a little bit of guidance, there's a lot of stuff out there on the internet you can read. But having someone kind of walk you through what's really important can be super useful. So, whether you got budget, no budget, just want to read it because it's fun or you're starting something new, we're here for you at multitude.productions/resources.
Julia: It always makes me so happy when I see people tagging the Multitude Twitter account being like, “Oh, I use this resource. And it really, really helped me.” It just makes me so pleased. It does that is what we're here for. It’s, it’s lifting all boats. And this is how we do it.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: All right. Well, Julia, there's a ton to talk about. I'm so stoked to do it. So, without further ado, everybody, please enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 223: The Tale of Princess Kaguya.
Intro Music
Julia: So, Amanda, I am extremely excited to be talking about another Miyazaki film. I know that we, we touched on Princess Mononoke. But this one is just – we're not even gonna do the two-minute summary like we usually do for this episode, because this is just a film that adheres so closely to the original text that it just wouldn't make any sense. So, we're gonna tell the story, but I wanted to talk a little bit about the film too before we really got started. It came out in 2014. It was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature at the 87th Academy Awards. It lost to Big Hero 6, which is a very fun film. But Princess Kaguya is visually stunning. It is done in a style that is very similar to, like, traditional Japanese art. It is very kind of sketchy throughout it. It's absolutely beautiful. And it's also, like to this date, the most expensive Japanese film ever made.
Amanda: Really?
Julia: Yeah, it costs $49.3 million.
Amanda: You know, Julia, I think, when you are Miyazaki, you're allowed to spend so much money on a movie. And I mean I feel like I can see it. And, even though – like, I think seeing stills from the film doesn't really do the animation justice because, like you say, the, the style looks kind of simplistic. They’re almost washed out, like, color wise, but that's totally not how it appears when it's in motion, where it's more like a painting has come to life.
Julia: Yeah. And, you know, it’s really interesting because it is one of the newer Miyazaki films. So, it's not one that a lot of us, if we grew up with the Miyazaki films, had kind of a nostalgia for. Like, I feel like a lot of people have in nostalgia for Spirited Away, for Kiki's Delivery Service, that kind of thing. But this one is new and feels really fresh. And you can kind of tell it's new from the cast choices that they made.
Amanda: You sure can, Julia.
Julia: Yeah, this is 2014 and Darren Criss is the romantic lead and you're like, “Hmm. Yeah, this is height of Glee time. So, that makes sense.”
Amanda: Yeah, you got Daniel Dae Kim and John Cho playing great bureaucratic roles, which I love. You got Lucy Lou in there.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: And you love to see. Also, James Marsden made his way in there. And, of course, Chloë Grace Moretz plays the lead in the English dub. I like to watch the subs usually, but there were so many familiar voices in the dub that I could not listen to that version because I was like, “Oh, no, it's too much.”
Julia: I have ADHD. So, the subs kind of – if it's, like, two-and-a-half-hour movie like this is, I need the voices and not just reading for two and a half hours. I need to be able to pay attention to it. But, yeah, this was – it was incredible cast. James Caan was incredible in this as the – as the bamboo cutter, as the father.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: I was like, “This is [Inaudible 6:46] man from Elf? This is the dad from Elf? Whoa. Wild.” Amanda: This is a complete tangent. But one of the many reasons I love procedurals of all kinds and just like any show that's gone on for, like, six plus seasons on a major network is because you’re like, every episode, like, “Oh, that guy.” And you get to see your favorite sort of character actors – particularly for me, your favorite New York character actors and just be like, “Ah, yes. Yes, you do usually play the hard drinking but lovable uncle.”
Julia: Jake and I refer to that as the Joey Pants scenario.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Which is Joey Pantoliano, who you might know from, like, The Matrix and Sopranos and stuff like that. He always plays the, like, asshole character. But he'll just pop up in random places. You’re like, “Oh, it’s that guy.”
Amanda: Yeah, a real working actor.
Julia: Love him. What a good dude. Not in this movie, though.
Amanda: No. No. No. Let's get back to this devastating and beautiful film.
Julia: Absolutely beautiful and gorgeous and just, like, themes of, like, feminism and also the restriction of women in the role in society. And it's a whole thing. If you haven't seen this film and you want to go into this before you listen to the episode, I need to tell you right now the last half hour is absolutely buck wild if you don't know anything about the story.
Amanda: Yes, it.
Julia: Because it just takes a turn at the end and you're like, “What happened? What? What is happening?” So, I'm here to tell you what that is.
Amanda: Absolutely. It made Over the Moon, which I – also had kind of, like, a third act twist that I did not see coming or more like a halfway through the movie twist. It made that seem completely predictable. I think it can be useful to know the kind of mythological underpinnings before you see the film so you can kind of appreciate the way that they sort of interpret all of these beats. But you do you. So, if you want to pause and go watch it, do it.
Julia: Yeah. So, I'm gonna start by telling one of the original versions of this story. I actually had to switch sources about halfway through because my one source just, like, ended halfway through the story and I was like, “Oh, okay. Let me find the rest of it.” So, the first version that I'm gonna be talking about is from Yei Ozaki who wrote the book, Japanese Fairytales, which was published in 1908. And, just like for the record, fairytale is a very, like, European-centric concept. So, the idea that they were, like, kind of retelling Japanese folk tales in kind of, like, an idea, Western-European style I think is really interesting because it does kind of show how this story has persisted throughout the years. And I'm gonna talk a little bit about, like, the persistence of this story at the end, but I want to tell the story first.
Amanda: Cool.
Julia: So, the original story is usually referred to as The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter. So, right away, we're seeing, like, that Miyazaki chose to centralize Princess Kaguya instead of the bamboo cutter.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: But the story that I'm reading by Yei Ozaki is The Bamboo Cutter and the Moon Child. So, again, highlighting kind of the role and the difference of origin between our two main characters because they are really the two main characters.
Amanda: Totally.
Julia: It’s a long story. Get ready. It’s – it was a two-and-a-half-hour movie and I felt like they could cut a couple of things sometimes. But it does really hit all of the beats of the original story. So, we're, we’re gonna go in there.
Amanda: Julia, I have a drink. I'm hanging out. My lighting is warm and even and I'm ready to go.
Julia: I love it. Get those, the Plum Gin Fizz ready, which I'll talk more about after our refill. So, long, long ago, there was an old bamboo wood cutter. He was poor. He did not have a child. He had convinced himself that he was just going to continue working until he died, which is a very classic fairy tale setup. It's like old couple who can never have a child and then they're gifted a child through some means.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: So, I'm gonna quote directly from the source for this next line because I love it, which is, “Every morning, he went forth into the woods and hills wherever the bamboo reared its lithe green plumes against the sky. When he had made his choice, he would cut down these feathers of the forest.”
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: Beautiful. Stunning. It sounds like a Miyazaki film already. Like, we're not even—
Amanda: It does.
Julia: —like, getting into it yet. And this is it.
Amanda: Yeah, I can hear, like, the wind ruffling across the, the tops of the plants.
Julia: So, anyway, the story goes on to tell them about how, like, he would bring the bamboo home. He would make things out of it. And then he would sell them in town with his wife. That's how they made their living. Very modest lifestyle. One morning, he goes into the woods and starts cutting down the bamboo. But then the grove he's in is flooded with light “as if the full moon had risen over the spot,” which, in the film, a very beautiful scene. He looks and sees that the light is all coming from the single bamboo. So, he goes over and he sees that inside the hollow of the bamboo stem is a tiny human, only three inches tall, and absolutely beautiful. Big, like, Thumbelina vibes.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: So, he's convinced that this must be his child sent from the heavens and takes her home to his wife who loves the child, puts her in a little basket so she won't get hurt by the much bigger world around her. It's very cute. They stress the idea that she grows very big very quickly. There's some magical things happening where this older woman who should not be able to produce milk because she didn't go through a pregnancy and, you know, wouldn't be able to. And they're going to a wet nurse and, all of a sudden, she's like, “Oh, my breast has milk in it now,” and whips the tit out, which I was not expecting for a PG movie. I have no problem with, like, visualizations of, like, non-sexualized boobs. But I was just like, “Oh, there's nipple. Okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool.” So, they love this little girl. And, when the bamboo cutter goes back into the woods to cut down the bamboo, he finds gold and gems in the notches of the bamboo as he cuts them down so much so that they just become rich.
Amanda: Yeah, like buy-a-castle rich.
Julia: And, meanwhile, over three months, the bamboo child has grown from, like, three-inch tall baby girl to just full on beautiful young woman. In the movie, they take a little bit more time with it. But, in the original story, it’s just three months. She's, like, fully a young adult.
Amanda: I like to think about how they explain that to the neighbors or maybe they don't. And everybody's like, ‘Shit happens.”
Julia: Yeah, in the film, everyone is very chill with like, “Oh, that old couple has a baby. And, now, she's, like, a full adult three months later. That's wild, huh?” There's also a full plotline in the film itself that is not mentioned in the story with kind of, like, childhood love and her learning about the world and growing up, albeit quickly, but, like, still as like a baby into a toddler into a child into, like, a young teen. No, no romance. No Darren Criss in the original plot.
Amanda: And I think that definitely makes sense as a – as a focus on the princess versus the bamboo cutter, but I'm sure we'll get to that.
Julia: Yeah, they're really trying to just give her things to be attached to because she needs things to be attached to in order for the plot to pay out later. But we'll see more about that when we get there.
Amanda: All the, like, simple trappings of a human life. And I think that's, that's one of the things I like the most about Miyazaki movies. It’s, even that, like, there's so much to love, that's fantastical and inventive. Don't get me wrong. But, also, the depictions of, like, meals and dressing and, you know, holding a parent's hand and whatever, like, that's the kind of stuff that just makes me start weeping tears.
Julia: Yeah, I mean, like, they spent a good 20, 30 minutes just being like, “These children are out playing in nature. And they're—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —eating melons that they found in a field. And they found mushrooms. And they're all very excited to make a stew.” Like, this is my childhood. I remember, like, just going into the woods and, like, picking wine berries off of the bushes and stuff like that.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: And sucking down a honey suckle. Yep, it was very reminiscent and very nostalgic for a life that I didn't personally live but, like, kind of lived.
Amanda: I totally agree. It feels like your childhood even if it wasn't your childhood. And I think that's one of the primary, to me, like, things that I go to animation for. It’s to, like, be transported into scenarios, feelings, memories that is just kind of easier to put myself in when it's not, like, watching a human face, like, be a street urchin in, like, Dickens’ times. Like, who cares? But, when I watch, you know, these kids picking melons, even though I never did, I kind of go back to the feelings that similar experiences evoked for me.
Julia: In the film, they call her Princess until she is named. So, she grows from that three-inch small child to full adult in three months. She is so beautiful that they make a point of saying that they had to hide her beauty behind a screen like she was a princess. Not allowing anyone to see her. In the film, they do this whole thing where they go to the capital and she learns to be nobility and royalty and stuff like that. In this story, in the original story, they just, you know, build themselves a nicer house in the countryside. And they kind of hide her away. There's not, like, this weird change in society that she asked to go through, which, again, I think it does build the stakes in the film a bit more because she's leaving something behind in order to be put into this role that she didn't ask for.
Amanda: Yeah. And that, like, the separation of locations makes it really clear how it feels to her for her life to go from playing with friends to being taught sort of etiquette.
Julia: Yeah. So, in the story, they even go and say, “It seemed as if she were made of light for the house was filled with a soft shining, so that, even in the dark of night, it was like daytime,” which, as someone with blackout curtains for a reason, that sounds like my absolute nightmare.
Amanda: On the other hand, Julia, no seasonal depression.
Julia: It depends on whether or not she's giving off vitamin D, I guess.
Amanda: That's true. That's true. I also just want to let everybody in the Northern Hemisphere know that, here in New York, last week was the last time for the next six months that the sun sets before 7:00 PM. So, enjoy.
Julia: Oh, I'm so happy. So happy now. Despite the fact that she's glowing like daytime and I would never be able to sleep, this story makes a point that she just has this kind of calming benign presence that could bring joy to people simply by being around her. They'd like say something to the effect of like, “When the bamboo cutter was feeling down, he would just go sit by his daughter and would feel at peace,” which is very sweet. Even if that wasn't like a supernatural ability that she had, just the idea of like, “Ooh, spending time with my daughter brings me joy,” is really very, very sweet.
Amanda: Yeah, it does. And I, I'm so curious too that, like, this film is made, I'm guessing, primarily by people who are parents or, like, at the age where, like, most of their peers are having that experience. Whereas, I have only had the experience of being a kid. And, so, looking at this movie from the lens of the child versus the lens of the parent, I imagine is just so different. Sort of one of the things that I'm looking forward to of getting older and kind of seeing my perspective shift and, like, my, you know, friends have started to have different experiences is, like, you get to read a book for the first time again and kind of, like, see how those things change. Because, from the kid’s perspective, I see that could be kind of suffocating. But that's, definitely, not sort of how it comes across.
Julia: Yeah. So, they end up naming her Princess Moonlight, which, actually, the story has the couple call a name-giver, which I didn't realize was a thing. But he just, like, gives her her name because, “her body gave forth so much soft, bright light that she might have been the daughter of the moon god.”
Amanda: Well.
Julia: Very fancy. In the movie version, it is like a big formality and there's, like, this huge banquet that is thrown after her naming and all of that. She doesn't actually glow in the movie; not like they're describing in the story. But I do think, like, the concept of the name-giver is really interesting. And I really like just the name Princess Moonlight, which is translated to Kaguya-hime.
Amanda: Nice.
Julia: So, they do throw, in the story, a festival to celebrate her naming. There’s song. There's dance. There's music. All of her friends and family show up and they're just fawning over her, which, in the movie version, they refused to let her be seen. It's mostly just, like, men being drunk and being like, “All right. So, when can we marry her off?” that kind of thing. Very stark difference in how the movie portrays this kind of celebration versus how the story itself portrays the celebration mostly because I imagine the movie is being told, you know, at least partially by women and, like, people who have gone through this process before. Where is the story being told originally in the 9th and 10th century is probably a little bit more like, “This is how things are done and this is a cause for celebration.”
Amanda: This is fine.
Julia: So, quickly, fame of her loveliness kind of spreads throughout the land and many suitors show up to try to win her hand. And they just want to see her.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Like they've been hiding her behind this screen. They just want to see her. She's supposed to be beautiful. They just want to see this lady
Amanda: Julia, it's almost like it's a metaphor for someone who can't experience a regular human life just wanting to experience it.
Julia: Mhmm. Mhmm. So, they're trying to peek through holes in the fences. They're climbing trees just to get the chance to see her from a distance. But the old man and his wife refuse anyone who comes by. They're just like, “No. No. No, this is our princess. No. No. No.” Eventually, most of the men kind of give up and leave except for five. This version of the story calls them knights. And I'm not sure what the translation here would be exactly because knight doesn't seem right. In the movie, they use, like, prince, and nobleman, and counselor, and minister. But, in this version, they call them knights and I don't think that's, like, quite the right translation for it. But it's just supposed to, like, give the idea that these are noblemen.
Amanda: Yeah, like, a title bestowed and, like, part of a hierarchy.
Julia: Yeah. The five try writing letters to Kaguya-hime, but they never get a response. They stay the entire winter and then all through the hot summer. And, finally, they beg the old bamboo cutter to allow them to see his daughter. But the bamboo cutter says that, because he is not her real father, he could not insist on her obeying him against her wishes, which is interesting. Like, that's such an interesting response and kind of doesn't parallel. But it's an interesting comparison between how she is portrayed in the film versus portrayed in this story. In the film, it is very much like she does not want to learn these lessons about how to be like a great woman and royalty and stuff like that. But the minute that her father starts watching the lessons or is checking in on her progress, that's when she starts to show like, “Oh, yes, I know how to play this instrument. Or, yes, here's my calligraphy or something like that.” So, the idea that he cannot ask her to obey him is not even a question really in the movie because she only acts kind of her rank when she is around him. So, eventually, these five suitors go home, but they find that they just cannot rest because they do not understand why they were spurned in such a way. They're just like, “I don't get it. No one's turned me down. I'm so rich, and handsome, and have lots of money, and, you know, great power.”
Amanda: You say yes to me. That's what you say.
Julia: Mhmm. Mhmm. So, again, they returned back to the bamboo cutters home and they begged the older man to plead their case to Kaguya-hime. He listens because he does, like, kind of feel bad for these guys. They've spent, at least, half of the year kind of just waiting outside his house to see his daughter. And he's like, “You know, that's not great.” So, he brings their cases to his adopted daughter. And I want to quote it directly because this is one of the few instances that we see dialogue in this story. So, the bamboo cutter says, “Although you have always seemed to me to be a heavenly being, yet I have had the trouble of bringing you up as my own child and you have been glad of the protection of my roof. Will you refuse to do as I wish?” The story says that he also, like, says this reverently, but it seems kind of rude to me. It's like, “I raised you. And, now, you got to listen to what I have to say. Be grateful that I raised you, child.”
Amanda: Hmm. Yeah, it's – again, like, whose perspective are you taking in this? Like, I think both of them have a real place that they're coming from that makes complete sense to them. That is what's so hard.
Julia: The James Caan version of the wood cutter, you get frustrated with him at times, but you also understand where he's coming from.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But this version of the story, I think, you are expected to be siding with the father exclusively because you're like—
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: —yes, this man is the father and, therefore, should be obeyed and listened to.
Amanda: It's probably a tale for, like, adults living in society. I think this movie is for people who want to dream of something otherworldly or being otherworldly.
Julia: I think you're right on the money there. So, Kaguya is, like – to this request, she's like, “No, dad. I honor and I love you as my own father. I don't remember my time before I came here to Earth,” which is like the first – like, you're like, “Wait. Wait. Before you came to Earth, where did you come from?”
Amanda: What?
Julia: What are you talking about Kaguya? And this is just like a passing reference. And you're just like, “What the…Okay. I know that the, the wood cutter thinks that you were sent from heaven. But, like, is that legit?” So, he continues to plead with her. He's like, “I'm old. I might die soon. You should meet with these suitors and choose one of them.” Basically, implying like, “Please get married before I die so that one of these men can take care of you,” which is, like, I get that.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: That's understandable. That's the, like, get married and have grandkids before I die mentality, which a lot of people have.
Amanda: And I'm sure – I mean, obviously, there's like a paternalistic view on this. But I also understand, you know, you spend your whole life, like, protecting this child from people who want to kind of, like, take her, experience her, you know, make her their own. More than usual, I get this perspective of wanting to be like, “Hey, we live in a society and this is how it is. And, like, I want you to have somebody on your team, you know, after I can't be.”
Julia: I agree with that, but, I will also remind you, she grew up in three months.
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: And it's, like, maybe been a year and a half since she like joined their family. So, he definitely didn't spend his whole life raising this child, you know.
Amanda: Not his whole life. That is for sure.
Julia: So, Kaguya is like, “I don't want to marry these guys. I don't want to get married right now. Do I really need to do this?” And he replies, “I found you many years ago,” which the timeline does not make sense, “when you were a little creature three inches high in the midst of a great white light. The light stream from the bamboo in which you were hid and led me to you. So, I've always thought that you were more than mortal woman. While I am alive, it is right for you to remain as you are if you wish to do so, but someday I shall cease to be and who will take care of you then? Therefore, I pray you to meet these five brave men one at a time and make up your mind to marry one of them!” with a little exclamation point at the end to be like, “Please do it.”
Amanda: It seems like the compromise still sucks from her point of view.
Julia: I mean I do like the idea of, as long as I'm alive and I'm here to take care of you, you can do what you want. But, please, think about the future, you know.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But she's like, “Okay. Well, what if they don't think I'm as beautiful as the rumor say? And, like, what if they are wrong? And what if they decide to marry me and then their heart changes and turn on me after we're married?” And she's just, like, really unsure about this whole thing. And she's like, “I don't think this is wise. This doesn't seem legit.” And the old man is like, “Yeah, okay. You know what? Fair. But, if you're not going to see these men, who will you see? Like, these guys have clearly been denying themselves, like, food, and sleep, and comfort just to get a look at you. What more can you demand of them?”
Amanda: She's like, “I never asked for this.”
Julia: Yeah. In the movie, there's, like, this whole thing where they are all presented to her at once. And they all kind of give these big speeches of like, “Oh, I'll treasure you as much as this thing, this extremely rare item. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And, in the movie, I really like how she does it. She's like, “Oh, well, if you treasure me as much as these items that you say that are impossible to find, why don't you go find them for me?” And they're like, “Wait, what? Sorry. What?” which we will talk a little bit about. But, first, let's go grab a refill.
Amanda: Love to do it.
Midroll Music
Amanda: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, if you take one thing away from Spirits, I hope it's that talking about mental health and getting help and support is, in fact, a badass thing to do and not a terrible thing or thing that you should not talk about. And I get my therapy through BetterHelp, which is amazing because, hey, it's great to do remotely, especially in, like, these times TM. But, also, you get to match with somebody with a sort of set of experiences and specialties that you might not be able to access locally. It's also more affordable than traditional offline counseling. And, if you want to switch counselors for whatever reason, it's free and really easy to do so, which is not how it works when you have to, like, shop for new therapists traditionally. And BetterHelp has just been great to work with. I've really enjoyed and I mean enjoyed – done a lot of growing through therapy in the last couple years. No, I enjoyed ultimately. But I love that we get to talk about the importance of therapy and mental health each week with our BetterHelp sponsorship. So, if you want to try it, please go to betterhelp.com/spirits where listeners of this show can get 10 percent off your first month of counseling. That's betterhelp.com/spirits.
Julia: Speaking of great ways to take care of your mind and your body, sleep is incredibly important for your mental health. And I have been getting the best sleep of my life ever since I downloaded the Calm app. We are super excited to work with Calm. They're an app that is designed to help ease stress and get the best sleep of your life. And, when you want to, like, relieve anxiety and improve your sleep, you just end up feeling better in your everyday life. And they have a whole library of programs that are designed for healthy sleep. There are soundscapes. There are guided meditations. They have those incredible sleep stories that have voices like Kelly Rowland and Laura Dern. I love the Laura Dern one. It's great. There are over 85 million people around the world who use Calm to take care of their minds and get better sleep. And, if you go to calm.com/spirits, that’s C-A-L-M.com/spirits, you'll get a limited time offer of 40 percent off a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of programming. That is 40 percent off unlimited access to Calm’s entire library. And they add new content every week. So, get started today at calm.com/spirits. That’s C-A-L-M.com/spirits.
Amanda: And, finally, we are sponsored by Doordash. If you are kind of disagreeing with your roommate or partner about what you want to eat or you get home and you have a night at home alone and you're like, “I do not want to cook another meal for myself. I have to cook 21 of these meals per week just to feed my human body. I don't feel like it. What do I do? I just want pizza and I can't make pizza at home,” that is a great opportunity to check out places near you on Doordash. They connect you with the restaurants you love right now and deliver it safely to your door. You can even get grocery essentials too. If you need drinks, or snacks, or household items, you can get it delivered same day, which can be super, super helpful if you need it. Ordering is easy. And you can even elect to get your items contactless drop off option. So, that is a great option to have to keep everybody safe. They have over 300,000 partners in the US, Puerto Rico, Canada, and Australia. So, if you are in those areas, please check it out. For a limited time, our listeners can get 25 percent off and zero delivery fees on their first order of $15 or more when you download the Doordash app and enter code CreepyCool.
Julia: Yeah, that's 25 percent off up to a $10 value and zero delivery fees on your first order when you download that Doordash app in the app store and enter the code CreepyCool. Don't forget that is CreepyCool, all one word, for 25 percent off your first order with Doordash. Subject to change. Terms apply.
Amanda: And, now, let's get back to the show.
Julia: So, in watching the movie, Amanda, I remember a part where they point out that the plum blossoms were blooming around the time that they found Princess Kaguya. So, I decided to honor that part by making a Plum-Basil Gin Fizz, which, ah, it really feels like a good way of welcoming in spring which is also kind of wishful thinking on my part because it's back to being cold here in New York and I hate it. I hate the damn fall spring here in New York where it's like, “Oh, it's 60 for, like, two days and then it's 30 degrees again.” And you're like, “Why?”
Amanda: Yeah, I call this the all-jackets time of year—
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: —because I've worn every jacket I own in the last seven days.
Julia: That's absolutely true, 100 percent.
Amanda: But this drink is delicious. Thank you so, so much for bringing this recipe into my life. And my favorite part of coming out of winter is stone fruit. So, I'm really happy that we get some plum taste in here.
Julia: Yeah, as soon as you get those ripe plums in the grocery store, definitely, try this drink out because it is delicious. Okay. So, Kaguya sets these tasks for her suitors. She tells one of them to bring her the stone begging bowl of the Buddha from India. She tells another one that he has to get her a jeweled branch from the mythical Island of Horai, the legendary Robe of the Fire Rat of China, a colored jewel from a dragon's neck, and a cowrie shell born of swallows that is supposed to be like a fertility talisman or something like that.
Amanda: Each of these items, Julia, could probably sustain a myth of their own. This is like really big reach right here.
Julia: Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And the, the noblemen see that these are just impossible tasks that she's asking for and a couple of them genuinely tried to trick her. They spent a lot of time on this, where it's, like, three years, and then a couple of them start coming back and being like, “Okay. Well, yeah, here is the branch that has a bunch of gems in it.” And then a guy interrupts them being like, “Hey, this guy hasn't paid us for that fake branch that we made.” I love that. Another one brings her the legendary Robe of the Fire Rat and then she's like, “Throw it on the fire then. If it's really fire rat, then it won't burn.” And he's like, “Ah, fuck, you got me.”
Amanda: Yep.
Julia: And then the one who is tasked with the stone begging bowl of Buddha. He's like, “Oh, yes, I went for a journey and then I just decided that, you know, much like the flower, I think that she is beautiful. So, I brought her back the single flower.” And she's, like, kind of moved by that in the film. And then, all of a sudden, his wife shows up and she's like, “Uh-umm. No, no, no, no. No, no, no.”
Amanda: Yeah, it wasn't bad up until then.
Julia: He was kind of good. And she's like, “No, this is, like, the fifth princess you've tried to trick with this bullshit. So, I am not having it.”
Amanda: Oh, no. Damn.
Julia: The one who was sent for the colored jewel of the dragon's neck, he encounters this storm at sea as he's, like, trying to get to the dragon. And he's just like, “Yeah. Now, I'm gonna turn back around. This doesn't seem worth it.”
Amanda: A lot of reasons why this might not be worth several years of my life.
Julia: Mhmm. And then the final one who probably had the easiest one, I feel like in terms of just trying to find the thing, was the, the cowrie shell born of swallows. And he ends up dying because he falls from a very large height and breaks his back.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: It’s, it’s brutal.
Julia: RIP John Joe.
Amanda: What do you think, Julia, drives them to want this so desperately? Is it – is it their beauty only? Is it status and other worldliness? I was kind of finding myself wondering why she was so compelling.
Julia: It's like a rarity thing. This is the girl that everyone is talking about. We watched Bridgerton, Amanda.
Amanda: We did.
Julia: You, you know that, like, the whole plot is, like, this is the girl that everyone's talking about. So, everyone wants to make a move on this girl because she is like—
Amanda: That is true.
Julia: —the hot new thing. And I think that's what Kaguya is and we'll see that later on because, at this point, even the Emperor of Japan has heard stories about Kaguya-hime. So, he comes to see her. And, obviously, they can't refuse the Emperor like she refused the noblemen. In the movie, he calls on her and she's like, “No, I won't go. I won't go. If you force me to go and marry the Emperor, I would rather die and I will die.” And the father's like, “I can't do that. No, no, no, my daughter will be safe.”
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: The emperor has no redeeming quality whatsoever in the film.
Amanda: No, he doesn’t.
Julia: He is a much more likeable character in this version of the story. So, he goes to see her. They can't refuse him like they did the noblemen. He falls in love with her instantly upon seeing her and asks her to marry him. He's not subjected to these ridiculous trials like the noblemen are, but Kaguya-hime still denies him saying that she was not from his country and, therefore, could not go to the palace and marry him. Again, hinting at that kind of otherworldly origin story that she's got here.
Amanda: Yeah, it's a really good not excuse, but, like, it's a really good thing to say.
Julia: Yeah, the Emperor does not give up on trying to marry her. He does leave without her hand in marriage. He stays in contact with her, the story kind of stresses. It's like, “Oh, they wrote letters to each other and stuff like that.” Like, she didn't just completely whole hath discredit him like most of the other men. Probably because he's the Emperor and the idea of her fully spurning him just would not have crossed anyone's mind.
Amanda: Yeah, totally.
Julia: So, one night, after all of these, Kaguya-hime’s adoptive parents, they see her looking up at the full moon with tears in her eyes. This is where the dramatic turn kind of happens in the story.
Amanda: This is exactly it. Yes.
Julia: When they asked her what's wrong, she's, like, not really able to tell them at first. And she begins to act strange and then tells her family that she is not from this world and has to return to her people on the moon. In the movie, she's like, “They're coming to get me in 15 days.” They never stress how she knows that. She just, like, kind of knows.
Amanda: Yeah, there's, like, a growing awareness. It was kind of my, my sense.
Julia: Yeah. So, there's a couple of versions of the story that go forward here where it adheres to and differs from the movie. So, one version says that she was sent to Earth as a form of punishment because she would, like, form material attachment on Earth that you would eventually have to lose. Like, that was punishment.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: It was that the idea of forming attachment and then that attachment being cut away.
Amanda: I mean word. Yes.
Julia: Another version says that she was sent to Earth for her own safety during a celestial war. And that the gold and the gems that the bamboo cutter had found where payment for protecting her. The movie kind of takes a slightly different approach with this where she went down to Earth because another celestial being had gone down there and she was curious. And, so, she “broke the rules” in order to go to Earth and see what the deal was.
Amanda: Right.
Julia: So, then the original story kind of takes a jump from here because it just starts talking about the day of her return. In the movie, she's like, “I just know they're coming to get me in 15 days.” But the story just is like, “Oh, okay. She's leaving now. Now, that she's told us that she's not from this Earth, she has to leave.”
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: The Emperor, in this story, sends guards to protect her from the moon people not wanting her to leave or, I guess, fearing that they might do her harm. Like, I guess it depends on which story if she's, like, there for punishment or if she is being protected by these celestial beings. In the movie version, it's her father that's doing all of this. It's not the Emperor because the Emperor is, like, there for two seconds and then we don't care about him. However, on the day of her departure, I guess we can call it, an embassy of “heavenly beings” arrives at the bamboo cutter’s home. And the Emperor's guards are blinded by a strange light. In the film, this is, like, portrayed as a very joyful and kind of, like, mysterious, ethereal moment. But I was watching and I’m like, “If you change this music at all, this would be like the most horrifying scene I've ever seen. Like, if you made this anymore creepier, like, because she just, like, is floating backwards with her arms outstretched and just, like, a very blank expression on her face. And it's terrifying. Like, if I muted that, I would be like, ‘Oh, this is a horror part. This is – this is the scary part of the film.
Amanda: That's a great observation.
Julia: So, back to the story, Kaguya-hime declares that she loves all of the people that she met and became close to on Earth, but she must return to the moon as it is where she truly belongs, which, again, we kind of see this vibe in the film itself. Interestingly, in one version that I read, she takes some sort of, like, elixir of immortality, which is very similar to the story of Chang’a before returning to the moon. Like, she was mortal here on Earth and then she takes this elixir and, now, she's allowed to return to the heavens, specifically to the moon.
Amanda: I can see that being sort of implied as well that, like, once you sort of ascend to, to celestial reality, again, you know that that's sort of a privilege bestowed upon you. But I think it also shows you the level of her want or her offense depending on the version that, you know, you would give that up. Like, that is a massive thing to lose.
Julia: Yeah. In the movie version, instead of, like, the elixir of immortality, she's given this kind of robe that takes away her memories of her time on Earth, which is very sad. Very, very sad.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Not a big fan of that at all.
Amanda: Brutal.
Julia: Brutal. So, back to the original story of, her parents kind of become sick with sadness. The Emperor is also overcome with sadness and asks his, like, men and servants. He goes, “Which mountain is the closest place to heaven?” Again, making him much more likeable than the movie version.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: He writes a letter and tells his men to take it to the summit of the mountain and burn it there in the hopes that the message would reach Kaguya-hime in the heavens. So, that mountain which is Mount Fuji gets its name from the word for immortality, which is Fushi or Fuji because it is said that Kaguya-hime also left the Emperor some of the elixir of immortality, but he destroys it at the top of the mountain because he does not wish to live forever in a world where she is not.
Amanda: Aww. That's some mythical lover shit.
Julia: Yes, when Mount Fuji was more volcanically active, the story mentions that the smoke rising from the summit was actually the letter from the Emperor still burning for Kaguya-hime.
Amanda: Oh, shit. I love that.
Julia: That's very cute, right?
Amanda: Very.
Julia: Obviously, very different ending from the movie but probably just, like, as equally sad.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But this like – it genuinely is a truly beautiful movie. Some of the artwork is just – I was blown away. It really, like, revels in its own beauty. There's this one scene where she is running away from the banquet because she realizes that the men just think she's hideous and, like, is like a prize to win. It looks like rabid. Like, it's such messy line work, but it is beautiful in its messiness. And I, I just loved this movie. It was fantastic. But not only is it a beautiful film, but it is also, like, a really beautiful tale. And you can see why it is an extremely popular story to retell or reference in Japanese media. So, the first time I remember hearing about the story, it was in the video game, Ōkami—
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: —which is, again, another beautifully rendered piece of Japanese media that kind of evokes traditional artwork. I just really, really love it. Sailor Moon has referenced this story several times. Naruto and Inuyasha too just to hit all the anime tropes. Even Sesame Street in a television special called Big Bird in Japan has done a modern interpretation of the story where Kaguya-hime is actually the guide that is bringing Big Bird throughout Japan.
Amanda: Amazing. And I think it makes total sense then when – why the, the art style is sort of one level abstracted to how I think of kind of traditional Miyazaki style.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: Because, if you're taking on something iconic, it is something that, like, everybody has an impression or an idea of the shape of the story or how it looks. And, so, you can just kind of, like, gesture at the thing that you're getting at. And you don't have to kind of paint the world in the level of detail that something, like, Spirited Away required.
Julia: Yeah. But what I really want to talk about just to finish up our episode here is this story is particularly interesting because it acts as proto-science fiction.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: So, the fact that Kaguya-hime, in some versions, is this, like, moon princess who was sent to Earth to protect her from a celestial war. She's an extraterrestrial being raised by humans on Earth. I mean this is so close to the plot of Superman, for example.
Amanda: True.
Julia: It's wild because this story was written during the Heian period in the 10th century. So, not only is it such a persevering story, we're still retelling it, like, over 1000 years later. And it's laid the framework for a lot of modern day science fiction. I'm not going to go and say that it is the origin of science fiction because there were writers, like, Lucian who was telling stories about extraterrestrial life forms and interplanetary war back in the second century. But it is still this sort of incredible blending of classic fairy tale and proto-science fiction. And it makes it stand out in a way that I think stories like the Grimm Brothers were telling don't quite.
Amanda: Totally. As always, like, I'm just kind of left sort of stunned by the way that human beings have been interested in the similar themes and similar questions. You know, yearning for similar things throughout time. And this is absolutely fascinating. And I want to go check out a couple different translations of The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter and read it myself.
Julia: Yeah, this is not something that I touched upon in the retelling of the story. But the moon people, when they come to take Kaguya-hime away, they arrive in something that is, like, very similar to our understanding of, like, a UFO or a flying saucer.
Amanda: Oh, interesting. I saw it as like a – like a cloud pancake, but it definitely amounts to the same thing.
Julia: Yeah, that's the – the movie interpretation has, like, the Buddha on it and it is very like, “I am on a chariot on a floating cloud or something like that.” But the way that it's described in the story itself is very kind of, like, flying saucery. Like, it is a – that specific kind of shape. More importantly, at least to me, this isn't the only Japanese story that features a woman and a flying saucer.
Amanda: Ooh, really?
Julia: Yes, I'm gonna quickly send you a picture as I go into this next section.
Amanda: Whoa.
Julia: So, Amanda, there are two versions of a story from the 19th century; one in 1825, one in 1844. In both versions, there are these Japanese sailors who noticed that, in the ocean, there is this strange vessel floating in the water. It is circular. It has glass windows. And it has a lid at the top of the ship. So, what they do is they haul this vessel onto the shore. And, when they do, a mysterious and beautiful woman emerges from the ship holding a mysterious box.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Her clothes are very clearly not Japanese. She refuses to let anyone touch the box. And they're just unable to communicate with her because she does not speak the language. So, it becomes clear that they wouldn't be able to get any more information from her. So, she gets back into her ship and she floats back out to sea again. But that is only one version of the story. That's the very simple version of the story from 1844. The earlier version from 1825 has a lot more going on. So, in this version, the woman has bright red hair and bright red eyebrows.
Amanda: Whoa.
Julia: The tips of her hair are white. And the box in this story is described as being a little bit bigger because one of the locals announces that he thinks that this woman is a foreign princess who had an illicit love affair. But the lover was beheaded and the princess has been banished to the strange ship as a form of punishment with the head of the lover.
Amanda: Sure. Sure. Sure.
Julia: And the villagers are scandalized by the story, which probably isn't true. I mean this guy just feels very confident in his guess. Like, he just – he extrapolates very far from this woman doesn't look like us and has a box.
Amanda: What size is that box? Oh, head-shaped box. Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, yes, okay.
Julia: Got to be the head of a beheaded lover from your illicit affair. So, the villagers are like, “Oh, this, this, this hussy has come to our land and we must get rid of her.” So, they pushed the woman and her ship back into the sea. It just floats away. That’s it.
Amanda: I really like this sort of egocentrism of like, “Well, clearly, if I was someone's lover and got beheaded, they would love me so much that they would carry my head around in a box.” That's kind of Earth feeling going on behind all of this in my opinion.
Julia: Mhmm. Mhmm. But ufologists love this story. And they love the story of Princess Kaguya because they can point towards the as early sightings of aliens and UFOs. It's a pretty common belief among them that the craft in the story that I just told was some sort of flying saucer that crashed into the sea and that the woman was an alien attempting to kind of just blend in. Not succeeding, but just trying. They also point to the fact that the woman's clothes were made of an unnatural substance. And also the design of the ship is very similar to most showings of UFOs just in modern culture. I wanted to throw that in because I think, like, pre-1950s UFO and, like, alien sightings are really interesting. And I also think that it's really cool because there's a couple of, like, hints in the Princess Kaguya story where she's like, “I don't remember my time before I came to Earth.” And it's very similar to like the memory loss that people who claim to have been abducted by aliens have and that sort of thing. So, I just think it's – I think it's neat. I think it's a cool little, like, crossover event there.
Amanda: Yeah, that, that's an interesting intersection and crossover. And I, I also think that, you know, you can find evidence of your hypothesis anywhere you look. Like, that, that's what the human brain is best at. And, certainly, I'm sure there are examples of like, A, you know, a person on a raft washing up or submarines are a thing. You know, like, particularly, I imagined for like an isolationist country the sort of themes of, like, some foreign unknown arriving on shore is like a theme that I've seen in lots of, like, artistic works. I do think is fascinating. And I think any interest that leads us to learn more about themes or, you know, fundamental texts of places that aren't ours is a good one.
Julia: Absolutely agree. Basically, overall as a film and as a story, I really do love this version and this story as a whole. I love the blend of what I see as kind of the classical European fairy tale tropes and then something sort of proto-science fiction. And it just feels uniquely Japanese. And I can understand why this story has persisted for as long as it has because it genuinely is something beautiful and unique.
Amanda: Fabulous. Well, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I definitely fell in that kind of chasm of, like, it was released after my childhood Miyazaki movies. But, before, as an adult, I realized how good they are and want to watch them now. So, it was a real joy to watch. And I hope that everybody, whether or not you grew up with The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter, checks it out, and watches this movie, and enjoys, you know, this fundamental, beautiful folktale.
Julia: Hell yeah. Do it up. Thanks, Miyazaki. Another one for the books, Miyazaki.
Amanda: And, remember—
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.
Theme Music
Amanda: Thanks again to our sponsors. At betterhelp.com/spirits, you can get 10 percent off your first month of counseling. In the Doordash app, you can use code CreepyCool for 25 percent off and zero delivery fees on your first order of $15 or more. In at calm.com/spirits, you can use code Spirits to get 40 percent off a Calm premium subscription.
Outro Music
Amanda: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
Julia: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us a@SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website as well as a form to send us your urban legends at spiritspodcast.com.
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Julia: We are a founding member of Multitude, a collective of independent audio professionals. If you'd like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
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Julia: Thank you so much for listening. Till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil