Episode 322: The Oedipus Plays
/We know the “Oedipal complex,” but how well do we actually know the Oedipal Plays? This set of three plays is a real Star Wars situation, with prequels and sequels and also lots of feuding. Come for the high school theater stories, stay for the political commentary. This one is a wild ride.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, suicide, incest, self-harm, war, kidnapping, and violence.
Housekeeping
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this Episode 322: The Oedipus Plays, baby. Julia, we did a version of these in high school, and I think it was not appropriate.
JULIA: No, it's super wasn't, it super wasn't.
AMANDA: That's just my view. That's just my thought, my like weird opinion that maybe high schoolers should not be enacting the story of Oedipus. But hey, you know what? I wasn't in charge.
JULIA: I agree. Yeah, so we're doing the Oedipus Plays this week. I don't remember a lot of the details of it very well. So I reread them fairly recently for this episode. And, well, it's a lot more wild and heartbreaking than I remember it being. I feel like most people know Oedipus, you know, from the Oedipal Complex, and Freud and the whole oh, you want to sleep with your mom thing. But I really think it kind of misses the whole point of the plays, to begin with. So I—
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: —wanted to, I want to revisit that and talk about like, what Sophocles and the story of Oedipus is actually trying to say, and it's not, hey, men want to sleep with their moms.
AMANDA: Incredible. Let's do it.
JULIA: Amanda, what do you remember about these plays, other than the fact that they were wildly inappropriate for high schoolers?
AMANDA: Well, we were tunics that were just fully made out of like muslin cloth or an off-brand that I appreciated because they were size-inclusive, and I was not relegated to the, you know, dresses in size 18 and up back in the—in the costume closet. No, but I mostly remember the beats of the Freudian application of, you know, there is a prophecy, everything is completely avoidable, which is what I mostly think when I read Greek tragedies, of the tragedies, that it was avoidable, and that it's self-created to some extent, and that—there are a lot of anxieties around masculinity, about power, about legacy. And I remember it really not being about the women whatsoever.
JULIA: Hmm, interesting. Oh, I'm so excited to get started. Because you've—
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: —you've pointed out a lot of things, and I think you're gonna find it really interesting for us to revisit. There's also a lot to go through here. So let's get into it. And hopefully, this is a nice, chunky episode for our listeners.
AMANDA: I'm ready.
JULIA: What is really interesting, at least to me about the Oedipus plays, which I guess I didn't know or had forgotten, was that the story of Oedipus consisted of three plays, all written by Sophocles, right? And Sophocles wrote and performed the first part, which is actually Antigone, in 441 BCE. And then it took him about 12 years to write and perform the next play, which is Oedipus Rex, or Oedipus the King, which is even more interesting, at least in my mind, because Oedipus Rex acts as a prequel to the original Antigone.
AMANDA: Really? So people have been pulling the George Lucas since the beginning of time.
JULIA: They truly have, they truly have. And also like, I just want to point this out. If you're a writer and you're listening to this, and you—you ever want to feel like better about yourself, like maybe like, oh, I'm not getting the recognition I deserve. Oh, I wish like more people read the things that I was writing. Just keep in mind that when Oedipus Rex was performed at the Dionysia festival play competition, which is where these were performed for the first time, it came in second. It came in second.
AMANDA: Wow! I can't believe we have records of the placement at that festival.
JULIA: I know Isn't that wild? So one of the most famous plays in all of history came in second. So you're doing great, comparatively, don't worry about it.
AMANDA: Good reminder.
JULIA: And then Amanda the final play which was written shortly before Sophocles' death was called Oedipus at Colonus will very briefly touch on that at the end, because there's like not a ton going on and acts as kind of a middle play for Oedipus Rex, than Oedipus at Colonus, and then Antigone.
AMANDA: Gotcha. A real episode 451 one situation.
JULIA: Exactly, precisely. So the timeline again, like chronologically was released as, released like it was a fucking movie, Antigone, Oedipus Rex, and then Oedipus at Colonus. But the chronological events within the plays themselves are Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, and then Antigone.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Also, as we get started, just a heads up, as is often the case with Greek tragedies, these plays feature several suicides. So all I ask is that our conspirators keep that in mind as we get into these stories, and if it's not for you, it's not for you, and that's totally fine.
AMANDA: Great news, there are 321 other episodes that you can use to fill the Spirits-shaped void in your week this week.
JULIA: That is true. That is true. So let's start with Antigone, even though it's chronologically last because I think it's better to read it in the way that Sophocles originally wrote and performed it.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: So we open on the city of Thebes at night were introduced to Antigone and Ismene, who are the daughters of Oedipus. And they are talking between the two of them about how their brothers, Polynices and Eteocles are fighting over control of the city. And now they've just found out that they've killed each other in the process.
AMANDA: Hell of an opening scene, I gotta say.
JULIA: Absolutely wild. They're in mourning, the brothers' troops have retreated and now their father Oedipus's brother-in-law whose name is Creon, has been ruling the city ever since. So Antigone is extremely upset and angry because Creon has made this announcement, that anyone who tried to bury or even mourn for Polynices would be put to death because he considers him a traitor. But even by Greek standards, that is going too far, to deny someone burial rights is a big, big deal. And that's basically what this whole play is about, right?
AMANDA: Reminds me a lot of our hospitality discussions. It's like the ultimate final act of hospitality.
JULIA: A little context for before and the original mythology of this story, the curse that is on Oedipus' house, is because his father, he's like father's father had broken hospitality laws because he had brought in a ward from another city-state, and the ward had been killed while in his custody. So he broke those hospitality laws and angered the gods.
AMANDA: Wow!
JULIA: Again, Amanda, you're picking up on all the cues that I wasn't even like prepared to tell you about, but I love it.
AMANDA: And I was like, I've been doing this for seven years, baby.
JULIA: Oh, my God. So Ismene is like, well, it sucks. but there's nothing that we can really do about it. But Antigone is like, well, actually, fuck that. What I'm going to do is I'm going to bury my brother, and you should help me. Ismene is like, listen, don't get me wrong, Polynices is my brother too, and I loved him. But I don't want to be put to death and Creon is the king now, we have to listen to what he says. Antigone absolutely dresses her sister down. And she says and here's a quote from the play, “Go away Ismene, I shall be hating you soon, and the dead will too for your words are hateful. Leave me my foolish play. I am not afraid of the danger, if it means death, it will not be the worst of death, death without honor.”
AMANDA: Oh my God!
JULIA: Absolutely wrecks her sister here.
AMANDA: It's like this is still relevant 2500 years later, baby.
JULIA: Exactly. So basically, like Antigone here is saying, fuck the law, honor and love for my brother is more important than the law, and the death that may come from me.
AMANDA: Julia, I just watched Andor, and I—I could not agree more.
JULIA: I'm glad you finally got around to that, by the way, I–
AMANDA: Oh yeah, yeah, we have to—we have to discuss it another time.
JULIA: So the plays in classic Greek fashion utilize the chorus as a way of like kind of setting scenes and kind of giving—
AMANDA: Delicious.
JULIA: We'd love the chorus in a Greek tragedy, we love it. So in this play, they basically play the elders of Thebes, who—they're like praising the city, they put down Polynices, who's the brother that was basically considered the traitor. They say like, oh, his desire to be king nearly destroyed the entire city. We don't like that. That's— that's bad.
AMANDA: I mean, seems like a fair read.
JULIA: Yeah. Creon enters then being like, okay, everyone, it's cool, don't worry about it. I've got things handled, everything is gonna be fine now. I'm the king now, don't worry about it. It's all good.
AMANDA: I'm sure this is not in here for dramatic irony purposes.
JULIA: No, of course not. So he also announces to the citizens that the—the other, Eteocles, the one who's fighting Polynices, he would have a hero's burial, which like meanwhile, he's like the other brother can just fucking rock, don't even worry about. We're not going to even let him be buried. No one is going to mourn for him. The chorus as the citizens are like, great, got it, that sounds good. We agree with what you're saying here. Just then a messenger comes in and reports the SCANDAL. So one has already given proper burial rights to Polynices, but no one is sure who did it.
AMANDA: Hmm. Can I just say, Julia, this is a really important sidebar, that I feel like messengers are always the hottest people in high school plays? If you're playing like a messenger, if you're playing a trickster, if you're playing certainly puck or a puckish figure, you're probably going to be attractive specifically to me.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. I agree with that. Amanda, great sidebar.
AMANDA: So I'm just—I'm just head casting this as, you know, a real puckish figure.
JULIA: So the chorus is like ooh, maybe the gods stepped in and gave him a proper burial?
AMANDA: An incredible excuse, I love that.
JULIA: Yeah, and Creon is like that's absurd, the gods would never help a traitor, it was probably when Polynices followers that's still hiding in the city. So he tells the messenger that if no suspect is found, that he would have the messenger himself put to death.
AMANDA: Not my crush!
JULIA: Yeah, not your crush. Also feels like a real origin of don't shoot the messenger here. I'm not sure if it's the actual origin, but it feels—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —really early on for it, so I love it.
AMANDA: Yeah, it really does.
JULIA: Yeah. So this messenger, the sentry hearing this as like, I'm gonna leave now, and just bounces out of there.
AMANDA: Yeah, no amount of money is worth it, exactly.
JULIA: Yes. But instead, the next scene we see is with Antigone, and the messenger returns with her having accused her of being the one who buried Polynices and calls for King Creon, right? So he tells Creon that the messenger and some of the other sentries had started digging up the body of Polynices, under Creon's order. But they were blinded by a sudden dust storm, feels like a godly intervention, I don't know.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And when they like we're able to see again, they saw Antigone one cursing them and also trying to rebury Polynices body.
AMANDA: Pretty airtight.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So they are like, what are you doing, we're going to bring you to Creon. She goes with them, Antigone denies nothing. She says she knew about the decree, but did it anyway, but says that by doing so, she didn't defy justice or the gods, but rather the will of an unjust man. Totally dissing Creon here.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: Absolutely, just like she's here, like serving up justice, that is what Antigone is here for.
AMANDA: It's giving justice Julia, it really is.
JULIA: So the chorus starts gossiping at this point, because that's where the Greek chorus does most of the time, being like, wow, Antigone, you're just like your father, all that passionate wildness. And, at this point, we don't like—I mean, we know who Oedipus is. But like Oedipus has not been really introduced to the story and wouldn't be for a dozen years, which is wild. But Creon at this point is like, okay, fuck this, I will not be insulted in my own home. He calls for Ismene and then declares that both of the daughters of Oedipus will be put to death because he's blaming them both on this.
AMANDA: Okay, I mean, classic baby with bathwater situation.
JULIA: So Antigone, while they're waiting for Ismene to arrive, just completely, absolutely wrecks through him. She's saying that he's all talk, how baring her brother is going to bring her glory, how the citizens of Thebes support her and what she did, but they're too afraid of Creon to do anything about it. And then she also tells him that both of her brothers deserve proper burial, that justice of the gods calls for her to act with love, and not to hold grudges, and Creon should as well.
AMANDA: Dang, Antigone.
JULIA: Yeah. And Creion is like, I'm not gonna have a woman telling me what to do with my own home, excuse you.
AMANDA: I know Creon's gonna die because it's a Greek tragedy. But good, I look forward to it.
JULIA: Yes. So at this point, Ismene shows up, just a mess, crying, all that kind of thing, and she goes, “Yeah, I'll share in the blame with Antigone.”
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: Even though she said that she wouldn't want to be involved at this point, right?
AMANDA: Right, right.
JULIA: Antigone turns on her and goes, oh now you want credit when you were too afraid to do this with me before, ha, coward. I see how it is.
AMANDA: Sisters, man.
JULIA: Yeah. So Creon steps in and says okay, you're both clearly crazy. Like he accuses them of going mad in the grief of losing their brothers. But Ismene again is like, okay, like you can put me to death, but what about your son Haimon, like, Haimon is engaged to Antigone, and he loves her. But like, would you actually like put your son's betrothed to death?
AMANDA: Yeah, he doesn't give a shit.
JULIA: Creon is absolutely not moved by this argument at all because having his son marry someone who he considers a traitor is disgusting.
AMANDA: This is about him Julia, his child marriage is about him and his legacy.
JULIA: But It's all about him. It's all about him, it's always been about him. And so he orders that the guards take the two sisters away. At this point, the chorus does a bit about like, just the history of the House of Oedipus, how wild it is that they're always surrounded by all this death and sorrow. And then they like to pray to Zeus, they're like your laws always trumped the laws of men, maybe step in here and do something about this.
AMANDA: TBD, don't count on it.
JULIA: TBD. Probably not. So around then, Haimon who is Creon's son enters and the chorus gossips about what he must think of his fiance's arrest. They're like oh my God, what's going on, are you all good? Creon at this point is also very curious about this. And he's like, so hey, are you going to side with me or with your girl? And Haimon is like, don't worry dad, no woman is more important than you my father, familial ties forever. It's all good, right?
AMANDA: Okay. Predictable.
JULIA: Creon obviously pleased by this, totally is like, ah, yes, my ego boosted a little bit.
AMANDA: I did a good job raising this person, who is not an autonomous person of his own, but an extension of me.
JULIA: Exactly. And then Haimon tells him about some gossip that he heard among citizens who think that Antigone really doesn't deserve the punishment for what she did. And Haimon is like, listen, I'm going to obey your laws. But do you really think this is the right course of action dad? Like, are you sure this is like the hill you want to die on? And of course, that insults Creon who is pissed that his citizens would tell— like even think to tell him how to rule and claims like no, I'm the king, I have absolute authority. No one else gets to tell me how to deal with the situation, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, what's right is what he decides.
JULIA: Of course, and Haimon goes from like being the real like obedient child, to immediately being like, you're just stubborn, and you're proud, and Creon In response calls him, “A slave of woman.” You're not my real dad, you're not my real dad, which is a problem later.
AMANDA: Yeah, right. This is giving real when one of my parents was mad at the other, they'd say like, oh, your daughter did this.
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: It's like oh, okay, guys, alright, I see what's happening.
JULIA: I'm everyone's child actually, but—
AMANDA: I'm both of your child and also a person.
JULIA: Yes. So Haimon is very clearly angry at this accusation, he implies that death might result in the death of someone else. Creon takes that as like, oh, you're gonna kill me if I kill your fiance? And it's like, oh, yeah, wanna bet? And so calls for the guards to bring Antigone out right then in there. He's like, I'm gonna kill her right in front of you.
AMANDA: Oh boy.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Oh boy.
JULIA: I'm gonna kill her right in front of you.
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: And Haimon is like, actually, no, I don't want to see you anymore, and just like flees.
AMANDA: Not the best look.
JULIA: Not the best look, but like a better than having his father like actually go through with that, you know what I mean?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And watch his fiance die right in front of him. Once Haimon runs off, Creon admits to the chorus, he's like, listen, I'm gonna let Ismene live, but I am still going to kill Antigone, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to enclose her in a tomb while she's still alive. A classic way of killing someone without like, like inadvertently killing someone, like we talked about that with the vestal virgins as well, as a way of like, if the gods want to intervene, they can, but I am still sentencing this person to death.
AMANDA: I went to a lecture recently about kashruth and the laws of what makes something kosher and what doesn't. And this won't surprise you, Julia, rabbis get really technical and details about like, okay, but if you hit a lever that operates a machine that kills an animal, like, does that still count? And it's fascinating and goes so level, so many levels deep, and this is really giving me you know, a simplified version of that same logical chain.
JULIA: Amanda, rabbis discussing stuff in detail and making arguments about like, little, like hypotheticals. I've never heard that before.
AMANDA: My people, Julia, my people.
JULIA: So Creon goes off, leaves the stage. The chorus sings a bit about how love is such a powerful force, that it can drive men mad, how it cannot be defeated by weapons. And then when Antigone approaches on stage, the chorus calls to her and says that even they would rebel if they saw her put to death. So the— the chorus is turned—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Very quickly against Creon.
AMANDA: I'm specifically picturing them as like a bunch of nans, like a bunch of grandmas and I think it's an excellent head casting.
JULIA: Just a bunch of Aunties, we love to see it.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So Antigone speaks to the chorus saying that her death is a noble one. But the chorus is like, well, I mean, is it noble, or are you just like giving into your pride?
AMANDA: Classic! An anti-question.
JULIA: Yeah, and then they're like because you're really acting like your father once did. And this pisses Antigone off, she's like, how dare you. So at this point, Creon shows up again, and again, is not moved by any of Antigones arguments or anything like that. He orders the guards to take her to her tomb. But before they do, Antigone makes like this one more kind of like, out of desperation move.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: She tells Creon that she would not have defied his orders if it had been her husband or her children. Because these were familial roles that could be replaced.
AMANDA: Could you explain to me what that means?
JULIA: Basically, her argument is why she did this for her brother, was both of her parents are dead already, right?
AMANDA: Oohh.
JULIA: She has no more other options or like, no more other siblings can be born to her.
AMANDA: Interesting. I don't endorse it, but I do get the logic of like, I can get another husband. I can have another kid like this is a little bit finite.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. So, so because her brother was the last son of the House of Oedipus, he was like irreplaceable, and that's why she felt she needed to honor him in this way.
AMANDA: I understand and really smart. They may not, you know, respect her like personhood or grief, but from a legal perspective, I think it's the thing that a king can understand.
JULIA: Absolutely. Creon doesn't understand, does not appreciate the argument whatsoever.
AMANDA: Good try.
JULIA: Orders her to be taken away, and Antigone cries out that the city is run by cowards, and that she is being punished for revering the gods.
AMANDA: Alright, I—I see that she's a dramatic bitch, but you know what, she's our dramatic bitch.
JULIA: She is, she is. At this point offstage, she is walled alive in her tomb. And the chorus like makes this huge proclamation and places her among the other mythological heroes that shared a similar fate.
AMANDA: Wow! One thing I appreciate about great plays Julia, they really don't require much in the way of sets. They really have the big items happen off-stage, which I appreciate.
JULIA: Yes, of course. Kind of like Shakespeare in a way.
AMANDA: He's like, I know we're not going to get the Forest of Dunsinane into the globe right now. It's not gonna happen.
JULIA: It's just not gonna happen. Just give everyone some branches, it's fine.
AMANDA: Give them a branch, have a march, it'll be fine.
JULIA: So Amanda, you would think that this is the end of the play, but nope, it's not.
AMANDA: It's not?!
JULIA: It's not! So instead, the next scene, sees a boy leading the blind soothsayer, Tiresias.
AMANDA: Tiresias, we know him from poetry!
JULIA: Exactly. So Creon totally respects Tiresias, and it's like, what should I do, I'll listen to whatever you say, right? He's like, well-respected soothsayer and prophet, tell me what the deal is. And Tiresias is like, listen, my dude, you fucked up this whole situation.
AMANDA: Little late.
JULIA: And I'm gonna bring your curse of the gods onto the city, and Creon instantly turns against him at that point. He's like, what the fuck man, like what you're—you're a false prophet. You're just being power-hungry. You can't tell me what to do. Even though he said just before he's like, I'll listen to whatever you have to say.
AMANDA: That must be a fun scene to play.
JULIA: Oh, absolutely. So Tiresias again is like, you've pissed off the gods because you messed with the laws of the gods, by not providing the rights for the dead.
AMANDA: Like Oh, Antigone and everyone else told you.
JULIA: Whoa, shocking, right? He's like, well, maybe if you'd listened to what the gods demand of you, none of this would have happened, right?
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Tiresias like I'm done with you, is lead away, leaves Creon and the chorus alone. The chorus is freaked out by this prophecy that Tiresias has left there. And Creon is like okay, yes, whatever. What should I do chorus, and they demand that Antigone be freed, and Creon reluctantly leaves to go do stuff. Finally listening to some reason.
AMANDA: I'm going to sense and predict that because this is a Greek play, she's already dead.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, you're right. Everything happened way too late. The chorus remains and then a messenger runs into tell them that first off, Haimon died by suicide.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: At the same time, Eurydice, not from Orpheus and Eurydice, but Creon's wife, Eurydice shows up, demands to know what happens. He tells her that when Creon had finished, like the burial of Polynices, they heard a cry from Antigone's tomb. And when they got there, they found Antigone, who's also already dead by suicide, and Haimon took a sword to try to attack his father missed, and then turned it on himself.
AMANDA: Oh, okay. There it is.
JULIA: So Creon then enters carrying Haimon's body and crying, realizing that his actions led to his son's death. Eurydice at this point also, off-stage has died by suicide after hearing about what happened to her son. And the messenger tells Creon that she had called down curses upon her husband right before she died. It's a lot of calling down curses on people in these plays, just as a rule of thumb.
AMANDA: Yeah, well, I'm getting real prequel vibes, because this is going to have a lot of impact for what happens next.
JULIA: Exactly. So Creon begs the gods to put him out of his misery, but he gets no response and his guards lead him away. And then we close with the chorus who sings how those with too much pride will always be punished by the gods' quote, “There is no happiness where there is no wisdom, no wisdom but in submission to the gods. Big words are always punished, and proud men in old age learn to be wise.”
AMANDA: Damn, what a powerful image to close on.
JULIA: Yeah. And then we close on Antigone and let's take a quick break because that was a lot. And then we'll pick up with Oedipus Rex.
AMANDA: Okay, let's do it.
[midroll]
AMANDA: Hello everybody and welcome to the refill. Welcome most especially if I may say so to Hanna and Nichole our newest patrons. Thank you so, so much for making some time in your life, and your budget to support a podcast like Spirits. You joined the distinguished ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And the legends themselves. Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Ginger Spurs Boi, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. You too can be named and thanked in our refill right on here, by joining and becoming a patron at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Now I was very encouraged by the number of you who enjoyed the show that I recommended in the last refill, Pressure Cooker. God, it was so good. And I just also wanted to say that if you have not watched the new season of The Mole, you gotta. It's an incredible reality show, somebody is lying, somebody is trying to sabotage the other people in the competition. And it is so incredibly satisfying. I have ended up like watching some Twitch streams with people from The Mole. A lot of them are active, you know, on social media and you know, in their own right. And the cast was just fabulous. And the show was well designed, it looks expensive in the way that like they really invested in set design and did such a good job of making these challenges feel really interesting, and really, like compel me to keep watching. So that is The Mole, it is available on Netflix, and you should seriously check it out. Also helpful, also thing you should check out is if you would consider texting a friend who you think would like Spirits, a link to an episode that you have really enjoyed recently, and be like, hey, I think you'd love this episode because ABC and D. Maybe it's this episode. Maybe it's a hometown urban legend. Maybe it's a guest episode with an interview with somebody who's fabulous. Maybe it's a roundup or a movie review of a movie you know that they love. It can be any episode, the point is you choosing one and saying to a friend, hey, I think you specifically would love this specifically, and this is why is a lovely gift to your friend. And it's a lovely gift to us, the main way that podcasts grow is by you telling friends. And I'm sure you, a listener know that most of the podcasts you hear about and love, you hear about from your friends and from people you trust. And it is such a lovely service to us. We are trying to bring you bigger and better stuff this year in year eight of our podcast. And it is very helpful to see the audience growing along as we keep trying to level up the show year after year. So thank you. We are doing lots of great stuff over at Multitude and something that I wanted to make sure you're aware of is our newest member show Pale Blue Pod. This is an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe but want to be its friend. It is hosted by astrophysicist Dr. Moiya McTier and comedian Corrine Caputo, who demystify space one topic at a time with open eyes, open arms, and open mouths from all the laughing and the jaw-dropping. The show is incredible. I look forward to it every single week, friend of the show past and future guests. 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[midroll]
AMANDA: Julia, tell me what cocktail goes well with leading to your own demise?
JULIA: Amanda, I think you should just find the highest-proof alcohol in your bar. Pour yourself a shot, take it and we'll get back to Oedipus Rex.
AMANDA: Yeah at friend of the show, Mischa's wedding late last year, their partner Erin passed me– actually put in my coat pocket and I found it later, a small bottle of moonshine unlabeled.
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: And I've been saving it, so maybe that's what this calls for.
JULIA: You might die, we'll see. We'll see.
AMANDA: I'll think about it. I'll—like a— what are the Scamfluencers called that thing where it's like a trace of a substance in water? You know what I mean?
JULIA: Oh yeah, like a—
AMANDA: Not a tincture.
JULIA: It's like the homeopathy idea of like a little bit of something—
AMANDA: In dilution.
JULIA: Heal—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah dilution stuff like that.
AMANDA: I'll put a dropper of that in like a pint of water.
JULIA: Interesting, I love that for you.
AMANDA: Also shout out in support to those doing dry January, or dry, indefinite uh, shout out to you.
JULIA: Yes. So now we flashback to Oedipus Rex, which is like the prequel I guess of Antigone.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Which I love thinking of that, like, it's so funny to me. It's like The Godfather 2, where they were like, okay, you all loved Marlon Brando, but let me show you young Marlon Brando in Godfather 2.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. You might be wondering how we got here. Screech! Screech! Switch to lasts 12 years.
JULIA: So anyway, Oedipus Rex starts with Oedipus the King of Thebes, and Antigone's father, who is dealing with a plague that has struck the city.
AMANDA: Tragically relatable.
JULIA: Tragically relatable. The citizens are trying to offer up gifts to the gods, but nothing seems to be working at all. The priests approach Oedipus and beg for him to do something to save the city. And Oedipus says I know it sucks. I just sent my brother-in-law Creon back again to the Oracle to ask what we should do. So queue Creon's arrival, who was like hey, let's—let's talk in private about what the Oracle said. And Oedipus is like, no, the people should hear what the Oracle has to say.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: And Creon's like, okay, well, Apollo says that the murder of Laius who would like ruled Thebes before Oedipus, is in the city, and he must be driven out in order for the plague to end.
AMANDA: Wow! I am—I am very into like an ecological disruption as a physical manifestation of some great imbalance of justice. Yeah, you know, like, I think that's a pretty cool thing.
JULIA: I mean, it's like the— the plagues and Moses in Egypt, I think, is very comparable in that sense.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Creon then does some exposition for the audience basically. He tells us how Laius was killed by Thebes when he went to consult the oracle, and how the murders had never been found because the Thebans were too distracted by the curse of the Sphinx. Which you might remember just from us talking about Greek mythology, in general, is a lion body, bird winged, face of a lady monster that stood at the gates of Thebes and asked a riddle of travelers to allow them to pass into the city. But if they got it wrong, she would devour them.
AMANDA: Immaculate vibes that I would suggest we all carry forth into this new year. Just a suggestion, just an idea.
JULIA: As we should, as we should. And as you may remember, Oedipus was the only person to solve the sphinx's riddle. And when she was, quote-unquote, “defeated in her game of riddles”, she threw herself from a cliff and died. Or in some versions devoured herself.
AMANDA: We're gonna— we're gonna cut the vibe short, just—just before Oedipus shows up. The rest of the vibes, we should channel.
JULIA: The rest of the vibes immaculate, we'll keep it. So Oedipus very familiar with the Sphinx at this point.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: And so he decides that he's going to try and solve Laius’ murder himself.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: The chorus enters and begs the gods for help. And Oedipus assures them that he will end the plague, and asks the chorus if they have any information about Laius’ death, right? He gets like no response from the chorus, and in his frustration, he curses the murderer and anyone who protects him. And then curses himself, saying that even if the murderer was a member of his own family, he would harshly punish them. Not by death, but by exile.
AMANDA: Uh-oh. Bad.
JULIA: The chorus then suggests that Oedipus call upon Tiresias. Again, Tiresias's showing up, the blind prophet.
AMANDA: Shoutout.
JULIA: Who we already met in Antigone, and Oedipus is like already done, already sent for him. I'm on the ballgame, we got this.
AMANDA: I wonder this is a situation where if you cast like, you know, Alan Cumming, has played the same role in Cabaret like many, many decades apart over the course of like 40 years.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: And somehow gets hotter every time. I feel like this could be the same situation, where I know he's supposed to be you know like they style him very old and wise and then things like that. But it's possible it could be the same actor reprising, you know a beloved role come back 12 years later to be younger Tiresias.
JULIA: I would love that for him. I hope that's what actually happened.
AMANDA: Yeah. I'm gonna go with a real kind of New York character actor like a Colin Quinn or somebody, that's my picture.
JULIA: Ooh, interesting. I like that. So Tiresias shows up, and Oedipus is like, okay, so do you know who killed Laius? And Tiresias like, yes, I do. But I sure wish I didn’t.
AMANDA: Oh shit.
JULIA: Oedipus is confused, like what kind of answer is that my guy, like just tell me—
AMANDA: From an Oracle? Yeah!
JULIA: Yeah. Just tell me straight up like who killed Laius. And he like starts insulting Tiresias like, give me a straight answer, guy. And Tiresias hints at what he knows. But when Oedipus starts accusing him of being the murderer, Tiresias like um, actually you're the curse of the plague on Thebes, you're the murderer, and Oedipus is like, what the fuck? No, I'm not, what are you talking about? So he goes into a rage telling himself and the chorus, that Creon and Tiresias, must be conspiring to overthrow him. Because like, otherwise, why would he be saying all this, right?
AMANDA: I mean, from one perspective, I definitely get it like, you know—you know your own actions. If someone says it's you, you know, that's on Black Mirror, like, I understand why you're like, no, the next logical explanation must be that you're lying.
JULIA: Exactly. So the chorus urges the king like, calm—calm down, sir. Calm down, please. But at this point, Tiresias is pissed, and he says, hey, Oedipus, like you don't even know who your parents are. Which Oedipus is, like, very confused, like, why are you bringing this up now, and also, I think I do—
AMANDA: Oh no.
JULIA: But what?
AMANDA: I feel like it's unusual to upset an oracle that much. I—maybe I'm taking this from, like, 50% of The Matrix and 50% Greek Mythology, but it seems like Oracles are kind of, you know, impassive.
JULIA: Yes. You—you would think that like, this would be a character that is like, oh, yes, I have the knowledge of the gods and therefore, like, nothing can faze me. But no, this is just a dude, who like sometimes the gods talked to him and he like passes on wisdom.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And like as we learn from a lot of Greek Mythology, not listening to Oracles is bad.
AMANDA: It is. This is reminding me– I talked to my accountant this morning. This is as if I asked my accountant, like, “What do I owe in taxes this year?” And then the accountant goes, “Ha-ha! Oh man.” Like, that's the vibe I'm getting.
JULIA: Yes. Like, you call for the profit, and you call for like the Oracle. You're like, what do I need to do? They're like, psh, man, you're fucked.
AMANDA: Bad. It—the worst, the worst possible.
JULIA: Basically, Oedipus is like, what do you know about—why are you bringing up my parents? What do you know about my parents? And Tiresias answers with a riddle, which he like also mocks Oedipus at this point, he's like, oh, aren't you good at riddles? Isn't that your whole thing?
AMANDA: Whoa!
JULIA: But Tiresias goes, and this is the quote from the play. He goes, the man you have been seeking all this time while proclaiming threats, and issuing orders about the one who murdered Laius, that man is here. And then he continues, he will turn out to be brother of the children in his house. Their father too, both at once. And the husband and the son of the very woman who gave birth to them. He sowed the same womb as his father and murdered him. Go and think on this. If you discover I have spoken falsely, you can say I lack all skill in prophecy. And then he's out.
AMANDA: Damn Tiresias.
JULIA: Just like drops the mic, leaves.
AMANDA: I'm envying Aidan Quinn or James Gandolfini or whoever's playing this role.
JULIA: Ooh, James Gandolfini would be so good. You know who would be also very good?
AMANDA: Yeah?
JULIA: Vincent D'Onofrio.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: That'll be a good one, huh?
AMANDA: Hell yeah. Or like maybe Bob Odenkirk, as Bob Odenkirk gets older, right?
JULIA: Oh, yeah,
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I like it. So this point Creon shows up as Tiresias leaves. And Oedipus is confused and angry.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And accuses him of trying to overthrow him, and says that he wants to kill Creon for this betrayal. Creon and the chorus are both like, again, you are making this up in your head, please calm down. And Oedipus is like, no, I know I'm right. At this point, while he's throwing his tantrum, Oedipus his wife, Jocasta, shows up then. And she's like, okay, babe, calm down, you shouldn't kill Creon, she's done nothing wrong. And Oedipus calms down enough to be like, I won't kill him, but I am convinced that he did something wrong. So Creon leaves and Oedipus has this moment which Jocosta where he tells her about what Tiresias has said to him. Jocasta is like, well, listen, I don't believe in any of the prophets. I mean, the Delphic Oracle herself told my husband Laius, that he was going to be murdered by his son. And the only son we ever had was cast out as a baby. And we all know Laius was killed by a band of Thebes. So like clearly, the oracle was lying or was making things up.
AMANDA: Noooo!
JULIA: But then Oedipus is like, wait something about that story sounds kind of familiar. Tell me more.
AMANDA: Oh, no. Oh shit.
JULIA: So Jocasta tells Oedipus and the audience how Laius was killed at a crossroads right before Oedipus arrived at the city. And Oedipus is like oh fuck, I think I might have murdered Laius, this is bad. So Oedipus tells his side of the story about like how he was raised in the city of Corinth but heard as a young man in court that he was not the biological son of the king and queen of Corinth like he believed. And so he went to the Oracle of Delphi to find out his origins. However, the Oracle only told him that he would murder his father and sleep with his mother. And Oedipus is like, oh, fuck, okay, well, then I need to leave Corinth. So that never happens. So let me avoid this prophecy that was given to me by the Oracle.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: So I'm just not going to spend any time around my parents ever again.
AMANDA: Brutal.
JULIA: So leaving Corinth, he found himself outside of Thebes. And just outside the city, Oedipus was harassed by a group of travelers who attacked him and then who he killed in self-defense.
AMANDA: There you go, Oedipus, you did in fact, commit a murder.
JULIA: But it was in self-defense. So Oedipus is like—
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: —okay, shit. Um, let me call on the shepherd, who was the only witness, and the only survivor besides me of that, and maybe we can get him to either tell us the truth or like, not talk and tell people that I am the murderer of Laius. So he and Jocasta leave, and the chorus does a little number about how proud men defy the gods, but no one can escape their destiny.
AMANDA: I mean, this is a real question like the plague isn't gonna go away until he leaves the city, right?
JULIA: Right. But he also still fully believes that he is not the cause of the plague. He still thinks that Tiresias and all the prophecies up until this point are not true, right?
AMANDA: Do you think the audience of this play is like fucking idiot?
JULIA: Yeah, exactly.
AMANDA: Fucking idiot.
JULIA: You're like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Man, you're just messing everything up like if you– if you like, you can't escape destiny and we'll talk about this in like Sophocles' like themes of destiny and free will, and stuff like that a little bit, but like. So at this point, a messenger shows up looking for Oedipus, but runs into to Jocasta, and informs her that he's here to tell Oedipus that his father, Polybus of Corinth, the king of Corinth has died. So he was sent to bring Oedipus back to Corinth in order for Oedipus to rule. And Jocasta is very happy about this news. Which is kind of fucked up Jocasta, like let's be honest. You just found out a man died.
AMANDA: Jocasta, your father-in-law just died. Okay.
JULIA: Yeah, because she thinks that since Polybus has died of natural causes, this proves that the prophecy is false, right?
AMANDA: But Oedipus was told that those weren't his natural parents.
JULIA: Yes, but he never got confirmation. He just like heard it from a person in court that he was not naturally born.
AMANDA: I see. I'm using the word natural by the way in like Greek, you know, biologically.
JULIA: We're talking about biological parents.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And natural is the term that would have been used in ancient Greek. We're talking about biological parents, totally. So Oedipus arrives, Jocasta tells him this news with the messenger there, and they both rejoice in this. They're like, oh, thank God, it means the prophecies are all fake. It's great. But Oedipus is still secretly afraid of the other half of the prophecy, the whole like sleeping with his mother thing.
AMANDA: Like Jocasta, are you sure you do not give birth to me?
JULIA: Yeah. Well, he's just like, well, well, my mother is not dead, what if I accidentally sleep with my mother? And the messenger overhears this, he's like, oh, don't worry about this. I mean, the king and queen of Corinth aren't your biological parents.
AMANDA: Oh, no. He uprooted his whole life for nothing.
JULIA: So the messenger then reveals that he used to be a shepherd once, and he found a baby near the city of Thebes. And the baby is revealed to be Oedipus and that the shepherd had brought him to Corinth and given him to the King and Queen of Corinth.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Jocasta at this point, realizes what is about to be revealed and it's like, oh, shit, oh, God, but doesn't like tell Oedipus explicitly what she thinks is about to happen. So Oedipus wants to find the shepherd that left him in the woods, a different shepherd. And Jocasta is like, hey, maybe don't, maybe don't press into this, maybe don't look into this any further, right? But Oedipus is like, no, I got to know, like, I got to know my origins, like this is really important to me. And Jocasta is like, I gotta go and flees, right?
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: I bet it's basically like, oh, my wife is being like such a snob. Like what does she thin—like is she really acting this way, because maybe I'm like a commoner in real life and like, not the son of the king and queen. Like how, how kind of rude and like snobby of her. Gosh.
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: But then he like turns to the chorus, and he's like, oh, I'm finally going to find out who my biological parents are. And they like, they like have this whole moment of like, yeah, this is awesome. This is gonna be great. I'm so happy for you, Oedipus.
AMANDA: Never have a good moment in a Greek play. Never.
JULIA: So the shepherd arrives, the one that he had called for, right? Who had seen Laius murder? And we find out that he was also the shepherd that left Oedipus in the woods as a child.
AMANDA: Wow! The shepherd really a main character.
JULIA: He really gets around. And so Oedipus asks him for information about where he came from. He's like, you must know who gave me to you. What's the deal? Where did I come from? And the shepherd at first refuses, but then when Oedipus like, threatens him, because naturally, that's what you do when you're King. He informs him that the baby was from the house of Laius, that it was Laius's child, and that Jocasta had given him the baby to kill because the prophecy said that the baby would lead to the death of his parents. This is when Oedipus realizes exactly what is going on. And he runs off stage.
AMANDA: I don't know why I'm surprised/a little bit sad. It is—it is the definition of his name.
JULIA: He really did think that this was going to be a good moment, like a happy moment.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And I think that's what makes it more upsetting.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Because he was like, well, I'm finally going to know my true origins. The thing that I have been thinking about for decades at this point, and I really want to know what's up, and then it all turns on him.
AMANDA: If only we listened to Tiresias, better that we didn't know.
JULIA: Yeah. So meanwhile, the chorus enters does their thing, they lament how Oedipus the greatest of men, was brought low by his own destiny to kill his father and marry his mother. The messenger arrives to tell us of course, what has occurred offstage, Jocasta has died by suicide. And while Oedipus arrived angry and cursing, like being like, how could you not have told me that this was the truth. When he sees her body, he sobs and holds her body. And then he takes the gold pins from her dress that are like keeping her dress on, and stabs out his own eyes, claiming that he could not bear to see the world now that he had learned the truth of his fate.
AMANDA: And I just want to commend you, Julia on the bloodwork job you did back in 2009. It was very nice and looked very convincing.
JULIA: Thank you very much. The key is you have to balance out the one that goes on your face, can't have soap in it, but the one that ends up on the clothing has to have soap in it so they can get the bloodstains and the costumes.
AMANDA: Smarty.
JULIA: That's what you learned in high school, how to take care of bloodstains. So basically, at this point, Oedipus arrives on stage, blood streaming from his eyes. Shout out to high school me. and he laments the destiny that Apollo has cursed him with. He demands that the chorus banish him from Thebes, but the chorus backs away as Oedipus rages, and curses his birth, his marriage, his life, and then goes further to curse all births, all marriages, all lives.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Like really taking it to the extreme here. So Creon, who we haven't seen in a while shows up then. And the chorus is like, dear God, do something about all this, look at him. And Creon goes to Oedipus and it's like, it's alright, why don't you go inside Oedipus? We don't need to show everyone your shame, basically. And Creon agrees like okay, I will banish you as you want, but only if the gods approve it. And Oedipus is like, yes, thank you. I believe that the gods want to keep me alive. So I will leave and my sons are old enough to be their own men. But Creon please, I beg of you take care of my young girls and bring them to me so I can say my last goodbye.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So Antigone and Ismene at this point, haven't seen them the entire play, they show up and they all weep together, they hold Oedipus as he—as he cries with them. He worries basically that his daughters will be doomed because in his mind, no man would want to marry a child of an incestuous marriage. And again, he begs Creon, please take care of all of them, right?
AMANDA: Creon, not going to do that.
JULIA: No, well, so he even like at this point, he like reaches out to take Creon's hand, but Creon refuses to touch Oedipus.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: And he tells Oedipus that he has to go and that he has wept shamefully enough for too long.
AMANDA: Alright, alright, toxic masculinity, wrap it up.
JULIA: So he sends the girls away and tells Oedipus that his power is no more. Everyone but the chorus exits, and they once again lament that Oedipus greatest of all men has fallen low, and that is clear that only death can bring peace to someone doomed by the gods.
AMANDA: And so Julia, what do you think the vibe is in the theater at the end of this play? Is the audience like damn straight? Like what's—what do they feel?
JULIA: So I think that's an interesting question, Amanda. Let me wrap up real quick with our final Oedipus play, because it's very short in my mind, in comparison. But like—so the final Oedipus play, is Oedipus at Colonus. And I know we're running out of time here. But basically, Oedipus is in exile in this play. The conflict that we heard about in Antigone between Oedipus's sons is currently happening, and they believe that if they can get the right to Oedipus's burial rights when he dies, that will legitimize their claim, right?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: However, as we know, Apollo has prophesized a bunch of stuff about Oedipus, including that he will be buried on this holy ground that's outside of the city of Athens. And so Oedipus has made a deal with the King of Athens Theseus because he claims that Apollo has told him that if Theseus keeps Oedipus's grave site a secret, the gods will keep Theseus's house ruling Athens. So later it's kind of revealed that Oedipus has seemed to have like disappeared, presumed dead, and that Theseus refuses to tell a mourning Antigone and Ismene, where he is buried. And Theseus sends them back to Thebes, in the hopes that they will be able to prevent the war between their brothers, as the chorus tells, basically, the audience and everyone else, that everything rests in the hands of the gods. And this is kind of where we can talk about what the audience would be feeling when they were seeing this play at the Dionysia, right?
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: At the time, and this is really important, we'll talk about the themes a bit. But what you need to know at the time was, this was being performed like basically for the people of Athens. And Sophocles had a really strong opinion on how the politics of Athens were at the time. Basically, what he was noticing was that mortal law, the laws of men were overruling what he considered the laws of the gods. And Sophocles believed that this was a bad thing to happen, right? The laws of the gods should preempt all laws of men. And that's fucked up that it's not.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: And so everything that happens in Oedipus and Antigone, is all about the fact that these men are trying to overreach what the gods have determined to be true, and right and good, and just.
AMANDA: And you can't outsmart them.
JULIA: Exactly. So depending on what the audience thought of politics at Athens in the time, they were either like, fuck yeah, Sophocles nailed it, or they're like, what the fuck Sophocles? You can't just say that laws are wrong because men made them.
AMANDA: That's helpful context. Sure.
JULIA: So we'll talk a little bit more about the themes here too, because like the Oedipus plays are both important to Greek mythology, because they kind of codify the story of Oedipus, but they're also like important to the themes of ancient Greek life and the development of the Greek tragedy as a whole. So we see a lot of themes about the power of the law, specifically in Antigone and the difference between laws of men, and the laws of gods. So in Antigone, in particular, we see that the—were the laws of Gods, usurped the laws of men, like the chorus literally talks about how men's laws control the world, but they are always usurped when they cross over the nebulous liminal spaces such as Burial Rites, and that's where the gods come in.
AMANDA: Yeah, where you do what is right based on what the gods intend and want, and demand. Not such trifling things as mortal laws.
JULIA: Exactly. So when Creon's argument throughout Antigone is like, oh, the good of the state comes before all else, before family, before religion. But like if we know anything about Greek mythology, we know that the duties to family, into the gods, are decreed by the gods, they come first.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So this is how Creon kind of oversteps and in the mind of Sophocles, gets the ending that he deserves by putting the state before moral duties laid out by the gods.
AMANDA: Fair enough, good ones.
JULIA: And that's kind of why Antigone is like the protagonist of Antigone and not Creon. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Yeah. No, totally.
JULIA: And then Sophocles, as we kind of talked about, really explores the themes of destiny and mortal attempts at freewill. So like Oedipus tries so hard to avoid all these prophecies that are laid out before him, and his hubris is founded in the idea that he can avoid what has been ordained by the gods, right? That like what they have already said will come to pass, he can stop that from happening. And like even like we see that in that scene, where Oedipus and Jocasta spend much of Oedipus Rex, saying that they don't really think that these prophecies can be trusted, that they have the ability to avoid what has been prophesized. And several times we see the Kings of Thebes, insult the Prophet Tiresias, thinking that their role as leader means that they are above the law of gods. And both Creon and Oedipus fall victim to their prophecies. And like I said, this is Sophocles telling the audience, that the power of the gods and prophets is above reproach, especially since when he's writing the play, there is that shift in Athenian politics away from the advice of Prophets.
AMANDA: It's fascinating. No, and I mean, I think the, you know, the sort of unresolved question, the tragedy of it all is like, what if Oedipus hadn't tried to run from it? Did he engineer the circumstances that he fell victim to? Or would they just have happened some other way if he hadn't tried to kind of outrun it?
JULIA: Right, exactly. And that is Oedipus's hubris that the prophecy comes to pass because he is so actively trying to avoid the prophecy because he can't see the truth that is in front of him and cannot accept it to be the truth. And that is why all of this happens to him.
AMANDA: Fascinating. There was so much more here than I remembered.
JULIA: I know, right? It's both such an like, timeless story. And the fact that it is such a like, kind of daring political commentary for the time that it is written, is fascinating in both sides of the field. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: It really is, yeah, and reminds me that, you know, art is always political. The circumstances in which a thing is made and published is always relevant. And I think it's a really fascinating text to revisit in our current circumstances. So thanks for bringing it to us
JULIA: Of course. I'm always happy to tell you a little bit more about Greek mythology. I know this year we're talking a lot about its Norse, of course. But this was something that I really want to touch on, because this is a part of Greek mythology, and Greek folklore that I think is fascinating from both a historical and mythological standpoint.
AMANDA: Julia, any chance to fancast the gods you know, I'm here for.
JULIA: Of course, naturally. And remember conspirators the next time that you get a prophecy from the gods remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KA
Editor: KM