Episode 321: Advice from Folklore V (with Dr. Moiya McTier)
/Dr. McTier is back, and we’re once again channeling the gods. We are learning how to fail safely, talk about stealing plants from your hometown, and discourage you from throwing rocks at your future wife. Y’know, the usual advice.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, infidelity, anxiety, injury, grief, breakups, and sex.
Guest
Dr. Moiya McTier is a New York-based astrophysicist who studies planets outside of our solar system. She is the co-host of Pale Blue Pod, an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe, but want to be its friend. She’s also a folklorist who specializes in using science and logic to build fictional worlds. You can hear all about the worlds she’s built on her podcast, Exolore, where she imagines, discusses, and reviews fictional worlds, often with expert guests. You can learn more about Moiya and her work on her website, moiyamctier.com.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends The Ruthless Lady’s Guide to Wizardry by C.M. Waggoner.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Exolore: Helping you imagine other worlds, but with facts and science! Every other week, astrophysicist/folklorist Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional worldbuilders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built.
Sponsors
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Find Us Online
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, at boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And we're joined as ever and as always by Dr Moiya McTier for another episode number 321, in fact, advice from folklore. Wooo.
JULIA: Ayee.
DR.MOIYA: So many episodes, congrats friend.
AMANDA: Oh, thank you. And Moiya, congrats, you talked about it at length on the show. But congrats being back here for the first time since Pale Blue Pod emerged from the universe.
DR.MOIYA: Thank you. It has been a while, Pale Blue Pod and the universe are keeping me away from my folklore duties. But it's nice to be back at a time when I can talk about how much of a friend I am to the universe.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: And for the people who haven't listened to Pale Blue Pod yet, Moiya, can you tell them a little bit about the show and why they should listen because it's fantastic.
DR.MOIYA: Yes, thank you. I would love to. Pale Blue Pod is a casual astronomy Podcast. I'm starting to say that now. A casual astronomy podcast for people who are kind of overwhelmed by the universe, maybe even a little afraid of it. There's nothing shameful about that. I am here to help the universe become a little bit more familiar to you. I have an amazing co-host, Corinne Caputo is a comedian and writer and she brings the levity that I think helps people get closer to space and less intimidated by it. And I love talking to her every week about some new topic and space from a new cozy location like a ski lodge, or an elephant sanctuary. It's just— it's a fun thing to make.
JULIA: I love that so much. I didn't tell you this yet, Moiya, but we were at our local dive bar and one of the bartenders mentioned how much he's interested in astrophysics. And I said, Pete, give me your phone. I'm gonna subscribe you to a podcast.
AMANDA: Yay.
DR.MOIYA: Yay. Thanks, Pete. Thanks, Julia.
JULIA: But our listeners will also remember Corinne Caputo from our most recent hometown urban legends episode. So if you like Moiya, which we know you do, you're listening to these episodes, and you enjoyed Corinne on the episode beforehand. Go check out Pale Blue Pod, I think it's great. I love that show.
DR.MOIYA: Not to toot our own horns, but I think we have a great report. There's a lot of giggling, so be ready for that.
AMANDA: A 100%.
JULIA: Heck yeah.
AMANDA: And the New Yorker thinks so too. So like, come on people.
DR.MOIYA: [2:44] and Forbes.
AMANDA: I am—I took a copy of my like older cousin's New Yorker out of her toddler's hands and said I need this when we visited them a few weeks ago. And so now there's a physical copy hanging up on the—on the bulletin board in the studio.
JULIA: Incredible. Amanda stealing from children to uh.
AMANDA: Listen, Mira was extremely happy to play with a flashlight instead. So everything worked out.
DR.MOIYA: Was—was stealing a magazine easier than stealing candy—
JULIA: From a baby.
AMANDA: Yeah. She was much more interested in her apple slices and honey that she was having for lunch—
JULIA: Heck yeah.
AMANDA: Than any magazine or toy.
JULIA: Love that for her.
DR.MOIYA: Good priorities.
AMANDA: But speaking of priority, speaking of compromise, speaking of like figuring out our way through the universe, shall we turn our attention and channel some Gods here to help conspirators with questions?
JULIA: Let's do it.
AMANDA: Alright. This first one comes from far below on Instagram, who writes, “usually being bad at an activity won't stop me from enjoying it. Whether it's badminton Pictionary, Dutch, or Blitz, but when I try to skate, I get embarrassed and then panic. How do I get over this?”
DR.MOIYA: Yes, we have channeled the gods for you my friend, which is how it starts. My friend, do not let my distant cousin Aedos, sink her shame-ridden claws into you. I know she is a formidable foe, but you're usually so adept at staving her off. Are you sure it is she and not the dark Phobos, who haunts you? My hundred eyes wants—use to help me see my opponent's every minute movement, are now useful for little more than the utterly pedestrian hobby you mortals call people watching. In the millennia since I was slammed by that foul-wing footage trickster, I have made a few observations you might find helpful. The first is that most people are bad at the things they do. From cleaning to dancing to governing. Ineptitude has rarely stopped a mortal from trying to do anything, a trait I begrudgingly admire. Second is that people rarely really look at others unless they're trying to gauge how many people are looking at them. No one is watching you escape far below, except for me, of course. And if they are, they are no Gorgon, who can hurt you with their visage alone. The third is that there must be something about skating that sets it apart from other activities for you. Are you worried about falling or getting your tongue stuck to the ice? Often identifying the specific fear is enough to loosen its hold on you. I'll be watching, but not judging our guest's penalties.
AMANDA: Oh my gosh, lovely.
DR.MOIYA: Hopefully, I relate to this far below, but let me tell you first a bit about Argus Panoptes. He is a giant from Greek mythology with a hundred eyes, and his name meant all seeing because, at some point, it was said that at least some of his eyes were awake and watching. As a giant, he was large and strong. And he served Hera and was tasked with slaying the Echidna, who was half snake, half woman, and known as the mother of all monsters who really threatened the Olympians. So Hera was like, hey, our guests Panoptes, please go take care of this Echidna lady for us. And he did. He killed her while she was sleeping, which later provides an opportunity for some poetic justice. I think. So one of the other popular stories involving Argus Panoptes, was that he was asked again by Hera to guard a cow who was not so secretly one of Zeus's lovers in disguise.
JULIA: Classic.
DR.MOIYA: This was IO, whose Zeus was like trying to get busy with, but then turned her into a cow. So no one would see that he was trying to get busy with her. And Hera knowing that this was one of Zeus's side pieces, told our guests but not these to look over her, but Zeus wanted her back. So he told Hermes the this wing-footed trickster that our guest Panoptes was throwing shade at to go act as a shepherd for Argus to sleep and then kill him. So he was also killed in his sleep just the way that Argus killed. It can be kidnapped in her sleep.
JULIA: Man, the Greeks love irony.
DR.MOIYA: They really do. Like—they were so good at foreshadowing, like, you know, when someone dies early in a Greek thing, it's gonna come back later in this like, same but slightly altered form, I love that.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's just that like, the Greek's dead body had a less good ring than Chekhov's gun, which is the only reason why we don't call it that right now in literary criticism.
DR.MOIYA: Exactly. IO, the cow in question was eventually freed after Argos died. But then Hera cursed her to be bothered for eternity by the gadfly.
JULIA: Classic.
DR.MOIYA: They're really annoying animals. And Hera then honored Argos Panoptes by putting his hundred eyes onto the feathers of her sacred, sacred peacock, which we can still see today. So now Argus is watching us anytime you're at a zoo, you're being watched by Argus.
AMANDA: Yeah, I wonder if Martha Stewart knows that her backyard is filled with Arguses.
DR.MOIYA: Maybe, she's—she's just a very devout follower of Hera.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's possible. I mean, I wouldn't doubt it.
JULIA: Anyone who's ever been to the Bronx Zoo, knows that the peacocks just kind of wander the food area.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Kind of run free, and I'm just like, hi Argu—hi, do you want a french fry before I go on?
DR.MOIYA: I bet Argus would love french fries.
JULIA: He probably would, honestly. Yeah.
AMANDA: So Moiya, what about this story resonated with you when you were thinking about this question around shame, and being seen, and being seen failing?
DR.MOIYA: Oh, okay. So I, I don't know if you know this about me, but I have a lot of like, performance anxiety. I do not like to be perceived. It doesn't matter if I'm good at it. I guess I don't mind if I'm—if I'm good at it, but it still brings on the sweats. So I have been trying really hard lately to internalize the knowledge that people aren't looking at me, that people aren't constantly judging what I'm doing. But I know it's really hard. So I—I wanted to channel the gods to get advice for you, Far below, but also—also for me, because doing things is hard being perceived as really anxiety producing.
JULIA: Yeah, recently, Jake got asked to officiate a wedding for his friend, which is very exciting. It's a second friend that he's officiated a wedding for. And I was talking to him about it. And I was like, are you like nervous at all about, you know, like, doing the ceremony and stuff? He's like, I mean, like, the normal amount of nervous. I'm like, well, I mean, like me getting up in front of all those people and being concerned that I'm gonna mess it up. And then suddenly, my friends aren't married anymore, or whatever is, would be like, the thing that drives me and he's like, no, like, I'm nervous in like, the healthy sense that motivates me. I'm like, what is that like? What is that like?
DR.MOIYA: That is a healthy motivating nerve.
JULIA: Yeah, like you're like, you know, before you go on stage, and you know, you're gonna crush it. I'm like, I never know. I'm gonna crush it, sir. Who are you? What's it like?
AMANDA: I don't know her.
JULIA: I don't know her. But yeah, like I often— people are like, oh, Julia, like you're—you're a great public speaker. You do a lot of live shows and stuff like that. I'm like, I am sweating every time I go out in front of an audience. I sweat like sometimes when we're recording with a really cool guest, not you Moiya, I love you. You're great. But like, you know, if someone I don't know and I'm just like, don't be weird in front of this person. So I understand the like, idea of someone watching you fail is very, like frustrating and scary. And I think that is probably what most motivates this conspirator with skating, because like, that's a very difficult thing to do by yourself. There's always some sort of audience there unless you're renting out like a place, like an ice rink by yourself, which is difficult and weird, and I probably cost inefficient but, but like, I imagined that yeah, like the idea that there are people around you, I would keep in mind that all the people that are probably in that ice rink while you are skating, are various levels of experience. And the people who are really, really good that are watching you, and you maybe think are judging you, probably started out much like you are at this time—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: As beginners, as people learning. So they're not judging you, they're just harkening back to a time when they were in your place.
DR.MOIYA: And go, go with someone.
JULIA: Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: That's—that— that will help alleviate the pressure, I think.
AMANDA: I was thinking just the same thing, Moiya, have how brave but how amazing it would be to invite some friends along as your hype squad, and to be like, you are going to cheer for me every time I fall. I was thinking about skateboarding actually, cause live near like a children's skateboarding park. And which is just possible. I don't know which one it is. But I was picturing like a bunch of five-year-olds like zipping around Brooklyn on their skateboards. And then you know, me a full adult in like real protective gear being like, as I tried to, you know, stay on the board. But whether it's ice, or whether it's concrete, I think having somebody there to be like, yeah, man, and measuring your success by like, your scrapes and your falls. And you know, the amount of things that you did before you got, like, you know, standing without falling, whether it's on blades or a board, I think is amazing. But y'all have great advice. And I have very little to add beyond that.
JULIA: I will also say before we wrap up on this question, I'm looking at the list of activities that this conspirator like listed off. And a lot of these are very, very fun activities and stuff like that. But they're also not like super physical and prone to pain, the way that whatever version of skating we're talking about is associated with. And it might just be like your mind being like, I don't want to get hurt, I don't want to get hurt, like the self-protective nature of your like hindbrain.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Is probably like, don't fall, don't fall. And then that just makes you more likely to fall because you panic. And I think just kind of embracing that this activity might cause some pain, but that's part of the process of learning, will maybe help you panic less about potentially getting hurt, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah. Get your protective gear, you're going to be okay. And I'm sure there are YouTube videos and advice out there for your specific sport. Whichever version of skating this is. Like I know when snowboarding, people are like try to fall, try to fall like that is when you—you have to figure out you're gonna spend a lot of the time like on your butt when snowboarding, and you're gonna just like try to fall, figure out how to fall you'll be okay. And knowing that it's inevitable, figuring out how to do it safely. For me when I started snowboarding and skiing really helps to be like okay, I know how to do this. Like it's gonna happen. My goal is not, not to fall, it's to know how to fall and that's okay.
JULIA: Yeah, 100%. I could go into a wrestling side tangent about like learning how to fall safely and—and taking bumps and stuff like that. But it total aside. So let's, let's check out the next question.
AMANDA: Let's do it. This is from Lindsey with the queue on Insta. “How do you deal with your family moving from your hometown, knowing you won't have any ties to that location in the future?”
JULIA: I think I have this one. Dear friend, forgive my bluntness. But what do you mean you have no ties to your hometown? I have been with you since the beginning. And I know all of the memories you have of this place. I know the streets and yards you played in, the places you shared meals with your friends and family, your school days, birthday parties, weekends, every moment good and bad. Of course, your family is not there any longer. And that is the nature of things. We are all travelers at times, and I have seen you come and go from the places that you have called home and made new homes. But what I need you to understand is those memories you have of this place, they mean something, they are so important, and not having family there any longer does not take that away. As much as I am tied to your fate, your future. It is not fair to forget where you came from. And if you were to travel back to your hometown, even now that your family is no longer there, these memories will still linger. And those memories are so important with you, as always, [14:38] From Norse mythology, a [14:42] is a woman guardian spirit that accompanies a person throughout their life and decides their luck, their happiness, or their fate. And it said that when someone passes away, the [14:53] is passed down to one of their other family members. And so they can like accompany a family for several generations, and influence that family's luck and fortune, which is why I thought it would be like a great spirit to kind of channel for this question. And it will sometimes appear to the person it is attached while they sleep, oftentimes in the form of an animal. And they are somewhat tied to another Norse spirit called the Fylgja, which is, again also tied to fate and fortune. And I was very much drawn to this question and channeling the spirit because as someone whose family members have moved out of their hometown, occasionally, I still drive through my hometown because I live about 30 miles probably from it. So it just happens to be around where I'm at. And I don't feel like I have less of a connection to my hometown now that my parents don't live there. Like yeah, I'm not going home to the house that I grew up in for like holidays and stuff like that. But like, I still remember like the memories of my high school or going to that specific deli and ordering the big ice tea, or iced coffee, or getting pizza at the specific pizza place after school. And I think that even though you might not have like, as much of a reason to go visit now, or you don't have those like literal physical ties to your hometown, that doesn't mean that it like doesn't matter anymore. You know what I mean? You still have these memories that are ties.
DR.MOIYA: And I think you can also create physical ties, physical reminders, if your hometown is known for a certain, I don't know type of chocolate or coffee. Order that so that you have it in your home. Or if they're like you can—you can—you can steal plants, you can take some plants from your hometown and plant them in your current home or something like there—there are, what's the word for things that make you remember something like—
JULIA: Relics.
AMANDA: Mementos?
DR.MOIYA: Yeah, relics, relics, yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: Mementos. Thank you. Little relics are mementos, that will take your hometown and bring it wherever you are now.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: A 100%. I love to have, you know, bumper stickers on my laptop case, you know, from my hometown, little pieces of you know, furniture or art from the house I grew up in, which you know, I had a lot of memories and you know, in grief when my parents split up and sold the house that I grew up in. And even though I still have reasons to visit the town, for me, the house was really the important part. And so having like, the chair that used to be, you know, in our basement, in my house now is memory enough for me and a lovely reminder, a tangible object, just with how my like brain works and how I feel at home. It's those tangible objects that I really love. And one day I want to get, you know, a plant like the one that was growing in my house growing up. So if you can't have an actual cutting, which will be ideal, I can at least have you know, that look and that memory. So I think that's a—that's a really lovely idea. And yeah, you can absolutely go back and show a friend, show you know, a loved one, do a visit of your own, follow that places hashtag, you know, get the local paper. My grandma gets a local paper of the town where she goes in the winters and summers when she's not there because she wants to stay up to date on the happenings and it's a lovely way to stay plugged in.
JULIA: Moiya, now all I can think of is that like fleeting scene in Twilight, where Kristen Stewart has a little cactus that she brings from like Arizona to, to Washington State and I'm just like, yeah, bring a plant with you.
DR.MOIYA: Yeah, when you move bring a plant.
JULIA AND AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I like that. I love that a lot. And I was just like, I wouldn't have thought of that, if you had suggested that, and now was like, that makes total sense.
AMANDA: No, it's a great point. And I think it's true to that like this is a real kind of grief. And you know, the suggestions we are making are because it is so natural to have memories and feelings, and you know, feel a type of way about a big portion of your life and your family life, and the narrative you tell about yourself and where you're from, to be changed. And so I think as always honoring that part of yourself and honoring that feeling, and realizing that you are allowed to be sad and you can talk to a friend, a therapist, a journal about it, you can, you know, walk about it, you can stress, cook some chicken stalk about it, as I did last night about something else. You know, you—you can—you can allow yourself to feel and to turn that feeling into ritual because by remembering stuff, we're honoring how important it was to us. And I think all of these you know, rituals were suggesting around memory and honoring the thing that's important to you, just serves to back up that it in fact is really important. And you are totally normal and allowed to feel sad.
JULIA: Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: You're also totally allowed to feel very happy that you have escaped your hometown if that's—if that's what you're feeling.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Just Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: Yeah.
JULIA: Absolutely.
AMANDA: Whatever you're feeling, [19:45]
DR.MOIYA: Totally valid. Yeah.
JULIA: It's also great to feel conflict about those two things like, oh, I'm so glad I escaped my hometown and also, oh god, I'm gonna miss not being able to go to that sandwich place or, you know, sit in my parents living room that I—I grew up in you know, I feel that. Human beings full of conflict.
AMANDA: We really are.
DR.MOIYA: Emotions are messy friends.
JULIA: So messy, make a mess.
AMANDA: Let's—let's get into more conflict and mess with this question from Lena, who asks, “How do I keep my calm in a world full of hustling people?”
DR.MOIYA: So much hustle, but also lots of opportunities for calm so let's get into it.
AMANDA: Yay.
DR.MOIYA: My child, it is in the world's nature to hustle just as it is in Alaskan, my husband the seas nature to turn and crash upon the shore. That does not mean we need to take any part in there bustling. I have tucked myself away from the chaos, built a physical barrier of sand and reefs between my piece and those who would wish to shave against it. You must build your own barrier, little one, whether it's physical, mental or habitual, create a space that is for you and you alone. A space where other people's waves can't crash down on you. And that is half of the battle. In my lagoon, I am safe from the currents of the sea, all the turbulence of that great and powerful form, but I'm still vulnerable to waves of my own making, and I still feel the push and pull of wind at my surface. being calm is not about raging against these currents to keep my water still, rather it is the act of floating atop them without letting myself get pulled under. Feel your waves. Let them carry you where you need to go. And you'll find that your waters are still more often than not. Peacefully yours, Alosa.
AMANDA: Moiya—
JULIA: It's so good.
AMANDA: Who is this lovely figure, who's Alosa?
DR.MOIYA: Alosa is a lesser-known Orisha from Yoruba folklore, and I've been very into Yoruba folklore lately. In case anyone is interested in more of that, I did an episode on it for Fate and Fabled the YouTube show I do for PBS. But I think that it's such an interesting folklore and mythology pantheon. The Orisha are kind of like gods or Spirits, but they were made by the Yoruba supreme creator being who is sometimes called Alaafin, they because Alaafin has no gender, made the Orisha to maintain the world and its inhabitants. And sometimes they're like natural phenomena like rivers and lakes. Sometimes they're actual people like humans who were deified into being Orisha like ancient kings of Yoruba land. It's so cool. But Alosa specifically is the Orisha of the lagoon in Lagos, Nigeria, and she is said to be the wife or sometimes the secretary of Alakan, who is the Orisha of the sea. They might also be siblings because in some stories, they're both the offspring of the Orisha [23:32] or Yemaya, who is the Orisha of all waters.
JULIA: I love this stuff.
DR.MOIYA: Alosa is the lagoon and Lagos Nigeria. But she can also take the form of a humanoid woman and then some stories, she has fish scales that are blue and green and Opal and I think she's really gorgeous.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
DR.MOIYA: Crocodiles are said to be sacred to her, and they are her messengers. So people treat the crocodiles in the lagoon very well, they'll feed them. If a crocodile is born with certain markings on its body, then they're said to be very special to Alosa and there'll be treated like kings. Occasionally, the lagoon would swell or flood and it was said that that meant Alosa was angry. So people would make offerings to her in the shrines that they put around the lagoons like candles or mirrors or if this flooding was bad enough, maybe even humans to appease Alosa. Yeah, that's— that's Alosa.
AMANDA: Oh my god. Incredible.
DR.MOIYA: Ah, I have been myself on a journey of staying calm. I remember in, in 20, maybe it was 2020. No, it was 2021. My goal was to be chilled Moiya.
JULIA: Okay. Okay.
AMANDA: No disrespect, but tell me more.
DR.MOIYA: I used to be a very angry person. Rugby in College helped me a lot with that. But I still would get annoyed very easily, like if I missed a train or something. And so my goal in being chill Moiya, was in recognizing which parts of life both in and out of me, were actually going to negatively impact me in the future. And if it wasn't going to, then I could just let it roll off my body. I am a very visual person. So in my journey towards being chill Moiya, I—I visualize a lot of things like literally running off my body like I am waterproof and they are droplets of water. So I was very open to channeling a water deity for this question, but yeah, it is a matter of finding your own inner peace. Yeah.
JULIA: I really love that and I really liked that imagery that you provided like just it's literally rolling off you like water off a duck or some other aquatic bird.
AMANDA: Or off Alosa's opulent scales.
JULIA: Yes, there you go like a crocodile. One of the visualizations that my therapist always recommends, is the idea of negative thoughts being a leaf that floats down a stream and away from you. So like the imagery of water in my head in particular with dealing with anger, is very like personal I guess to me in that sense. So I 100% see where you're coming from. And I love the idea of a Alosa being this body of water that is one protected by its boundaries. Again, a thing that I think a lot of people need is just like setting up boundaries to protect yourself with. And also like knowing that because it's water, it is malleable, it is like open to the push and pull of the tides, and of the wind and stuff like that. And we can't all just be perfect pools that live in a vacuum, because that's not how life works. So the idea of you have to kind of accept certain things that come your way and just kind of roll with it. And you can't like make everything perfect and quiet, and live in that vacuum. And I think that's a really great answer for this conspirator.
DR.MOIYA: Yay, thanks, Alosa.
AMANDA: Yeah,
JULIA: Yeah, thanks. Alosa.
AMANDA: Alosa's answer reminds me so much of Shabbat, which is one of the things that really drew me to Judaism, and one of the kind of coolest spiritual technologies that I see in the religion, which is, you know, the Sabbath. It's, you know, Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown, depending on how you know, what—you what your duties looks like, you can refrain from any kind of work or technology. Growing up, I had a friend who could never play on, on Shabbat because her family, you know, walked everywhere, like didn't use cars, didn't use light switches didn't, you know, turn on the oven. Like that is the extent of work that some people observe, while others do things like you know, have like a private ritual for how you kind of like decompress and de-stress and turn off the week and start, you know, your weekend. But the technology of it, the reason why people thought it was important thousand of years ago to codify until no matter where you are, what you do, how you observe it, to have a little break from the—from the working world, it's like a little it's—I suppose to be a little taste of heaven. And for me, it is such a lovely thing to remember that no matter what happens to me during the week, no matter what I have on my plate, no matter what failures I have, or successes I have, no matter what on Friday at sundown, I'm gonna light a candle, I'm going to delete Instagram from my phone, I am going to take a bath, I'm going to do my you know, little things to remind myself that I deserve peace and comfort and stillness, no matter what my productivity was like, or how I feel about myself. Those things don't matter, what matters is like keeping the schedule, someone else thought it was good for me. And I'm gonna listen to them and try it. And whatever that looks like to you. Whether it's a morning routine, or a nighttime routine, or some kind of break in the week or the month, where you honor that time with yourself, and you don't make your calm. It's like a reward and incentive-based, like performance reward. But just a thing that you are do, and that you need. I don't know, I think for people who hold themselves to really high standards, or really perfectionistic, or like me think matter need all those silly things like mindfulness and rest like I can power through. It is—it is humbling and lovely to say, you know what, this is my routine and whether or not I think I need it, I'm going to stick to it, because someone older and smarter than me thought I did. And you know what, most of the time I really do.
JULIA: Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: You really deserve this peace. And your ancestors want you to have this piece. They worked hard for you to have this peace.
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: Yeah. Feel like girl lights the candle, take a break, sit down.
JULIA: Have that snack, have that glass of wine.
AMANDA: Have a snack, baby.
JULIA: Put your phone on do not disturb mode. You know?
AMANDA: I know. I know.
Dr.Moiya: My ancestors like, what you have a phone?
JULIA: What's a phone?
AMANDA: [28:28] is like whatever that is, I don't trust it. And you know, he's right.
JULIA: That magic box, we hate it.
AMANDA: Speaking of rest, shall we get camp to the kitchen and get a little refill?
DR.MOIYA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Sounds good. Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia and welcome to the refill. First of all, I want to thank of course our newest patrons for joining us here on Spirits, that is Ursidas, Jordan, Christine, Ashley, Kate, and Michael. Welcome, welcome, welcome you join the ranks of our incredible supporting producer-level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course our legend-level patrons Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. And if you would like to join our Patreon as well, the people who help us make this podcast on a weekly basis, allow us to make this our careers, our lives, our livelihoods. You can join us at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, where we are now monthly and that means when you sign up your tier is what you pay each month. It's simple for you. It's simple for us and you get a bunch of new stuff like urban legends episodes every month. All patrons now have access to our monthly bonus episodes, plus dozens that we've posted over the years. You can enjoy new benefits like our Tarot drawings, a bonus advice podcast, and even more chances to connect with us. And you can get all that and more at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Now, this is the time that I do my recommendation and I want to quickly recommend to you The Ruthless Lady’s Guide to Wizardry by C.M. Waggoner. I had a lot of fun with this one, it is both a romance and a murder mystery, and there's magic involved. And if you don't like those things, I don't know what to tell you, I don't know why you're listening this podcast or read my advice, you know, because those are just things that I personally love and I think you will love them too. I also think that if you're listening to this episode, you probably love the work of our good friend Dr. McTier here. And have you listened to her show Exolore? Have you ever wondered what life would be like on a planet different from our own, or how writers create your favorite fictional worlds? Well, wonder no more because we have all the facts for you on Exolore. Every week, astrophysicist and folklorist Dr.Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional world builders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built. You'll learn you'll laugh, and you'll gain an appreciation for just how special our planet, the planet Earth really is. You can subscribe today by searching Exolore in your podcast app or going to exolorepod.com We are sponsored this week by Cornbread Hemp. Corn Bread have a CBD company based in Kentucky and their products are flower-only full spectrum, that means no seeds or stems and they are USDA-certified organic. Most of their products are vegan-friendly, including their CBD oils and gummies. A lot of times gummies, they're not vegan-friendly, but the ones from Cornbread Hemp are and they're wonderful. And if you want to support a business that is family owned and crowdfunded, where all of their products are grown and made in Kentucky, Cornbread Hemp is the company for you. They are certified by independent labs with reports published on their website, you could see that it actually works the things that they're selling. So go to cornbreadhemp.com and use the code Spirits for 25% off your order. Again, that is cornbreadhemp.com and use the code Spirits for 25% off your order. We are also sponsored this week by Blue Land. Now I know you probably made some like big resolutions for New Year's Eve. And it's really hard to follow through with those resolutions, right? They can be really daunting and like you want to make them into these big grand things. But we all know that small changes are the easiest changes to make. 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And becoming your best self can feel a little difficult. Like it's really hard to become the person that you imagine you can be in your head. And sometimes it's the little things that bog you down, or you just don't know where to start and what changes to make. And it's really, really difficult when you're not showing up for yourself for you to show up for others as well. But I think that working with a therapist can help you get closer to the best version of you, can help you feel empowered, and it will make it easier for you to take on everything that life throws at you. I know for me, it's really difficult to figure out what changes I can make that seem possible because if I'm making these changes that I think are impossible, I'll never actually start making the changes you know. And it's something I talk to my therapist a lot about. And I think that anyone who is looking to become just a better version of themselves would benefit from going to therapy. 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AMANDA: Can I tell you guys about a little ritual that I have built into my work week? Speaking of rituals and peace and calm?
JULIA: Yes, please.
AMANDA: Eric, my husband and I realized that we need a second cup of coffee in the day, and now is that we actually added to it, we need it. And also that having like meetings between you know, 10 and 6 all day long every day, we weren't like taking a break to like stretch and chicken with each other and have lunch and do whatever. And so we've created this phenomenon called Espresso time, where 2 pm every day, we use the espresso machine that my uncle bought us for the holidays last year, make a little cup of espresso, which you can see in front of me because it's an espresso time a little bit early today.
JULIA: So good.
AMANDA: It's very cute. And I make a little espresso, which takes a bit longer than I'd like it to. But it takes you to know, 10 minutes, we make the espresso, we have a little drink, we check in with each other and then we go back to our day. And that is the refill of my actual work day that I have been enjoying a lot recently.
DR.MOIYA: That's beautiful.
JULIA: I love that.
AMANDA: Thank you. I encourage you to build a refill, a little coffee break into your own day if that sounds enticing.
DR.MOIYA: My refills during the day are going to cuddle Cosmo.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Yes. Correct.
DR.MOIYA: Usually he's by me all the time. But occasionally he'll—he'll want his space or he'll have a private day and he'll spend all—all of his day in my bedroom, and I work in my living room. So if I need a refill, I'll go in and I'll just nuzzle my face up against his body.
AMANDA: Awww.
DR.MOIYA: I love them.
AMANDA: That's so cute. So cute.
JULIA: Recently, Jake has had a couple of days where he worked from home. And I have been complaining to him for the past like couple of weeks or so I'm like my knees really hurt. Like I'm like, oh, this must be what it's like turning 30, he's like, I—I worked from home baby and I barely saw you come out of your office, you're sitting all day in like, like crisscross applesauce at your desk. You need to go for a walk. And so when he's home, and he works from home, we like take half an hour out of the day, we go for a little walk and I'm just like, oh my God, I feel so much better.
DR.MOIYA: I hate how much—
AMANDA: I know.
DR.MOIYA: —going for a walk—
AMANDA: I know.
DR.MOIYA: —or going into the sun or like eating something helps.
JULIA: We say this every time but it remains true. And I keep forgetting that it's—it's like I am basically either a dog or a human plant.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And that's fine. I—like I need little walks throughout the day or like just something to do to recharge, and how the weather is bad. Like it's really hard to motivate myself to go for a walk. Or like you know, during the summer I used to like take my lunch half an hour, or an hour. And I would go and sit outside, eat my lunch read a book and it was like the greatest experience of my life. However now that it's cold, can't do that. So I think now I'm like a plant that has gone into hibernation and my poor, poor husband has to come and wake me up.
AMANDA: Yeah. Only capitalism doesn't let us hibernate. And so you have to you know, keep doing.
JULIA: Man, if I could just like not do anything for three months out of the year, that'd be great. I'd love that.
AMANDA: That'd be great. But in the meantime, as we help other people with their little steps and routines, and building little refills into their life and schedule. This question comes from Alexandra via Instagram, who says “me and my fiance are getting married this Saturday” which is two weeks ago as of this episode coming out. So congratulations. “Any advice for growing old together?”
JULIA: I will say this was a little bit of an older question. So I believe Alexandra and their spouse are now married. So congratulations.
AMANDA: Congrats.
JULIA: So dear Alexandra, congratulations on your nuptials, I have no doubt that you too will enjoy a long and happy life together. While my marriage to my husband had its ups and downs, from misunderstandings to trickery and more. I can happily say that we found what works for us after all of the trials and tribulations. Firstly, perhaps most importantly, there can be no love where there is no trust. That is the one thing I want you to take away from my story. Your partner is your partner but they are also not half of you. Forgive me for disavowing the philosopher Plato, but Zeus did not make humans with four arms, four legs, and two faces and then split them in half, it's punishment. Believe me, I've asked him myself. Your partner is not half of you, and you are and will always be your own person. But is your life better tending to the field together? Is your life better cooking your meals together, taking your cups together, living your life together? Absolutely, that is the joy of marriage, a joy that you can look forward to for the rest of your life. Never forget that love requires work though. Understanding requires work. And when you stop attempting to understand the person that you love, that is when love withers like the vine in winter. Your marriage will be beautiful if you keep these things in mind as beautiful as my mother-in-law, I'm sure. And well I know that she has already blessed your union, I send you into your marriage with my blessing as well. May you always have your perfect partner, and be the ideal partner to them as well. Yours, Psyche. Now we've talked about the story of Eros and Psyche quite a few times on the show. But Psyche for those of you who don't remember was a mortal woman so beautiful that people abandoned Aphrodite's temples to worship her. Aphrodite pissed at this light, sent her son Eros to make Psyche fall in love with some terrible beast, but instead, Eros accidentally pricked himself with his own arrow and fell in love with Psyche. Dr. Moiya Mctier just gave me quote, they're around accidentally. So he in hidden form married a Psyche but did not reveal himself. Psyche's sisters claimed that he must be some terrible monsters, and she has never seen him. And so Psyche lit a candle to peep on Eros while he was sleeping, but she dripped some wax on his chest, and he awoke and fled, feeling that he had been betrayed because he asked her not to look at him. Psyche then goes on this whole quest for Aphrodite, so that she can talk to him and be like, hey, I let him know I apologize. And so Aphrodite forces her to do like several tasks to prove her worth. However, eventually, Eros came around on his own, and the two are reignited and Psyche was made into a goddess. Also, I forgot this, but they also had a child who is the goddess of the embodiment of like, physical enjoyment, which I think is great. Big fan of that.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: So I mean, this is like in general from both Psyche and myself. This is very much. I don't want to say it's boilerplate advice for a marriage, but I truly do believe that you always have to like put work into your relationship just like you have to put work into all relationships that you have. Like you have to like be understanding as people change throughout their life, and you know, go through things that you're not expecting them to go through whether it is you know, a change at work or a night you have a child or something like that, or the death of a loved one. The work never stops. And that doesn't mean it has to be difficult or hard. It just means you have to put the effort in.
AMANDA: Well put.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Julia, what's something that's surprised you being almost five years married? Is that right?
JULIA: Oh, god. Yeah.
AMANDA: What does that mean that surprised you about marriage?
JULIA: What surprises me, I feel like every day is, and I was talking to someone about this recently, I was like, man, I struggled with so much of the little stuff, whether it's the idea of like cleaning or doing dishes or stuff like that, and I would be very lost without Jake there to help me kind of like pick up the slack in my life. And I realized and I love that about our relationship is, I like to do the things that he doesn't like to do and he does the stuff that I honestly would have so much struggle trying to do so easily. And like I feel like I discover something new about my husband every day and that's kind of a wild thing after we've been together for looks at calendar, 14 years and he just like he's— he's constantly a surprise, and I am constantly like both envious and love the parts of him that I wish that I could be more like, and that is part of the thing that I feel like I'm constantly putting effort towards is to do the things that he finds so easy, and that helps me be motivated to do those things when they're difficult for me. I got a little choked up talking about that, thank you, Amanda.
AMANDA: As you should.
JULIA: Amanda, you're—you're newly married, what's the things that you've learned from marriage?
AMANDA: No, I thought—yeah, three months or so. I think similar—similar observation with a different conclusion where I was responsible for myself and the people around me for so long. That sharing that responsibility and trusting someone else to come through and to surprise me with you know, ideas and creativity, and competence is so hard. And again like I know that I am so lucky to have somebody you know willing to do that, excited to do that with like great ideas and generosity, and wanting to look out for me. And I— you know am working you know so hard in therapy and in my life to like get out of my own way of accepting you know, the help that is offered to me like lovingly and without strings because that is so kind of new for me in my life. And so realizing that I can be a part of a team, I can be good at the stuff that I'm good at, and have the knowledge and like humility, and you know, like introspection to say, like, this is not an Amanda task, you know, and like, figure out, get out of my own way, and get out of our way as a team, to, you know, to getting things done that have to get done. Because like that love is not conditional. It's okay that I'm not good at everything. I don't have to be good at everything. If I were, you know, why would I need a teammate and it's so damn fun to have a teammate. And that—that has been a challenge and a surprise, and a thing that I see being really instrumental to like, our long-term, you know, health and happiness together.
JULIA: I love the idea of you telling yourself not an Amanda task, don't do it. I love that. I love that for you, because I— I've known you God for so long, and I know that you always felt like you kind of had that burden of if I don't do it, no one else is gonna do it. So I—that makes me so happy.
DR.MOIYA: That's so nice. I have nothing to add here.
JULIA: That's fine. It's Alright.
AMANDA: It's alright. Alexandra. Good luck.
JULIA: We love that.
AMANDA: We're here with you.
JULIA: I feel like you'll have something to add for our next question though.
DR.MOIYA: I will.
AMANDA: Yay. This is from Noinuka on Instagram, who states “slowly accepting single life here. But all of the sudden people want to start dating me? how?”
DR.MOIYA: [46:22] Because you're hot, like in all the way.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Can confirm.
DR.MOIYA: [46;27]
JULIA: Can confirm.
AMANDA: I bet you're, I bet you're looking personality are hot fire.
DR.MOIYA: But we also have a folklore character coming in to give you some advice. And they say dear one, I have seen your name and my book of fate. I know what awaits you at the end of your love Journey. But I will not tell you what I see. No, I've learned my lesson. And no, it's best if I don't reveal your amorous destinies to you mortals. Besides, you're not yet ready for me to tighten the red string that ties you to your feet. That doesn't mean I won't throw other more temporary connections your way. In the meantime, you are kind and beautiful, and you deserve to receive all the positive attention you want. But I know it's hard to feel that way after a breakup. It hurts when the string between you is cut, and the tensor the string, the more painful its recoil. These people who want to date you are there to remind you who you are, what you want, and how to have fun. Use them to remember that you have a choice and that you know more now about what it means not to settle. Trust me. These people are happy to be put in your path because they can sense the brightness and levity in your energy as you heal. Take your time if you need to and be judicious in your choosing. But don't run away from these connections out of fear. My red strings still anchor you to your destiny, so you won't get lost. Encouragingly yours, Yue Lao.
JULIA: Yay.
AMANDA: Yue Lao who is she?
DR.MOIYA: He actually. This is one of the few like male love deities—
AMANDA: Look at me making assumptions.
DR.MOIYA: [47;56]
AMANDA: Wow.
DR.MOIYA: Yeah. Yue Lao is a love deity from Chinese folklore often called the Chinese cupid.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Tell me more.
DR.MOIYA: His full name is Yue Xia Lao Ren, which means the old man under the moon and he said to appear under the light of the moon and use a red rope, this like silky satiny rope to tie potential matches together. Kind of evocative image.
AMANDA: Can I just say, sexier than the arrow in my opinion?
JULIA: I was gonna say a little bit kinky [48:27]
AMANDA: Yeah. Let's do it.
DR.MOIYA: I'm here for it.
AMANDA: I think an arrow is kinkier than—than silk ropes.
JULIA: You would think. You would think.
DR.MOIYA: A popular story associated with Yue Lao takes place during the Tang Dynasty in China, which ruled between about 7th and 10th centuries. But in that story, a man named Wei Gu was walking down the road complaining that he didn't have a wife as one does when they're just casually walking alone down the—down the street.
JULIA: Classic.
DR.MOIYA: But as he's complaining, he sees an old man on the side of the road. And this old man has this white beard, long white beard, and a yellow robes. And he's reading from this strange book that Weigu can't read when he gets close enough to it. So he asked the old man, hey, what's that book? And it turns out that it is the book of faded marriages. And the old man points to this young girl walking further down the road and he says hey, Wei Gu that's gonna be your wife in 10 years.
JULIA: Ooohh in 10 years, too, I really liked that.
DR.MOIYA: And then Wei Gu is like this is a cruel joke. I don't believe you. I'm mad. So he picks up a rock and for some reason throws it at the girl.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Why?
DR.MOIYA: In between her eyes.
JULIA: No.
DR.MOIYA: So he like hit—he hits her in the head with a rock, he like doesn't go over to help her anything, should they—they part ways. And he lives a fulfilling life where he eventually becomes a government official and does so much good work that he's rewarded with the hand of the governor's daughter in marriage. So they get married. They're, you know, like in their wedding bed and she's wearing this headband across her forehead. Like, hey, what's up there? She moves it and there's the scar between her eyes and they realized that he was the man who threw the rock at her. He apologizes, she forgives him. And they live a nice, long happy life together, where they spread the story of Yue Lao and how he tied their strings together. And now Yue Lao lives in legend in Chinese folklore.
JULIA: I've been thinking a lot recently about just the idea of trying to work against fate, but fate always ends up winning in the end. And I feel like all of mythology is like, really, really into that. And so this is kind of beautiful words like, oh, you know, you're gonna throw a rock at that girl, and then the wife that you marry later is gonna be that same girl because you've tried to say, like, hey, I—that's not gonna happen, but then it did because you thought it wasn't gonna happen. Ah, I love it. I love it so much.
DR.MOIYA: Yeah. So I—I like this story, because, well, what—however you feel, regardless of how you feel about fate versus free will and everything? I think it's, it can be comforting for a lot of people to know that there, there might be some Destiny out there for you.
JULIA: Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: Yeah, [51:10] I'm there with you, you take as long as you want to date again, to seek out serious relationships again. I recently got out of a very long, serious relationship, it was very difficult. I'm giving myself a year and a day before I will let myself even think about dating seriously again. But in the meantime, I'm on this journey of learning more about myself, learning more about what I want, and what I need. And other people will be very helpful along that journey. And if you allow is send other people in my path with maybe strings of a different color, you know, like maybe, maybe the blue string is like, this person is going to teach you what type of dates you'd like to go on, people come into your life for a reason. Or like, you can believe that people come into your life for a reason and just learn what you need to from each of those interactions.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: I—I love that. And I also think that like, even if you're not looking for, like a serious romantic relationship, now that you are enjoying single life, where a sex-positive podcast here, if you want to just like go hook up with people, like if that's like a need or desire that you have, you don't have to look for anything more serious, if you don't want to, like, that's fine. Like, go for it. I have a friend who recently went through a breakup and she's like, I just want like, go out, like, everyone I'm like, kind of talking to right now seems like they're all looking for long-term relationships. And I like I'm not in a place where I want that. So I just kind of like, want to have someone to kiss, I'm like, I get that, hundred percent, go—go do that. I'm sure there are other people out there who are also not looking for serious relationships who just want to kiss.
AMANDA: I think a really empowering and lovely part of being newly single especially is you're not responsible for anyone's feelings or needs, but your own. And you get to say to somebody, hey, I'd be happy to go out and see where things go, this is exactly what I am or I'm not looking for, or, you know, hey, I'm, you know, I'm working through some stuff. You know, this is where I'm at. And, you know, let people take relief, just as you can choose to take or leave whatever other people are kind of putting out there, and where they're at in their lives. So you are allowed to say, haven't done this in a while makes me nervous. You're allowed to say, I'm figuring this out. You're just saying I'm so flattered that you were interested in me, I kind of can't believe it. And you know, and see what the other person does with that, like you— you are you are fully allowed to do that. And that's a lovely thing.
DR.MOIYA: I've said that I've said that on several dates. I was such a nervous wreck on my way to my first—let's be honest, several dates after—after the breakup, and on the first two, I was very upfront. I was like, Look, this is my first date. My first— first date and a long time.
AMANDA: Yeah.
DR.MOIYA: I was almost literally a child, like please, please know that I'm going to be awkward.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And did it kind of help or free you at all to name that?
DR.MOIYA: Oh, it did. Absolutely. One of the people was— after I told them that they're like, oh, that makes so much sense [54:08] my behavior accordingly.
AMANDA: [54:10] but also thank you.
DR.MOIYA: No wonder you didn't know it like I'm gonna turn on music like I was so lost. Dating is such a weird, like Candyland-style board game. Everything is crisscrossing, what—either—how did things work? What's the protocol?
JULIA: It's chutes and ladders, Moiya, it's Chutes and Ladders. I feel you there.
DR.MOIYA: Game.
JULIA: There's no strategy to it. It's just rolling dice.
DR.MOIYA: Yeah, being honest, being upfront with people about where you are in the situation, helps them also be in—in the right position.
AMANDA: Absolutely.
JULIA: Yeah, that makes total sense.
AMANDA: We believe in you. We think you're gonna do great when you get and thank you Moiya and Yue Lao for the advice. So that will do it for this installment of advice from folklore. Moiya, you'll be back several times throughout the year. So folks, remember you can always submit your questions for advice from folklore to spirits podcast.com/contact where you can select advice from folklore, and then it'll get a fancy email color on our inner inbox and it's purple because that color reminds me of you Moiya.
DR.MOIYA: Oh I love that. Thank you.
AMANDA: You're welcome
JULIA: We're also specifically looking for some lighter heart questions because a lot of people send us some like very like serious and we appreciate you wanting our advice on serious stuff. But sometimes we got to balance these episodes out. So if you have a light hearted question that you want advice from, please send that in as well.
AMANDA: Yeah, how do I style my altar? Like what makes a good Shabbat candle? We're here for you.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Amazing. Dr. Moiya McTier, would you please remind the fine folks where they can keep in touch with you and your work online?
DR.MOIYA: Yes, I am. Goastromo on Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok, and you can find all of my work on my website moiyamctier.com check out my book, The Milky Way. Check out Pale Blue Pod, my newest podcast. I also host Exolore, but that is on a brief hiatus while I batch record new episodes, but there are—there are 68 episodes in the backlog for you to listen to.
JULIA: Dang.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude. Is 69 going to be about sex on other planets?
DR.MOIYA: There—there's a lot of stuff in there about sex on other planets. [56:10]
AMANDA: Excellent. Yes.
DR.MOIYA:: I really love thinking about sex on other planets.
AMANDA: My favorite part about Andor, is that the opening scene is like yeah, of course, people in the Star Wars galaxy would want to fuck lots of different people with, lots of different biology like, of course, that's what you would do. Of course. Of course.
JULIA: We're all alien fuckers here, man.
AMANDA: Lovely and no matter.
DR.MOIYA:: [56:29]
AMANDA: Exactly. And no matter what kind of alien you are looking to fuck or not fuck, maybe befriend, maybe fall in love with, or maybe get some advice from, remember—
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KA
Editor: KM