Episode 156: Myth Movie Night - Song of the Sea
/We’re revamping our Myth Movie Nights by revisiting a Spirits favorite - selkies! We’re doing a deep dive (get it?) into the Celtic stories of ‘Song of the Sea,’ featuring: summer stones, storm hags, where a selkie coat comes from, and being kind to yourself.
This week, Amanda recommends Goliath by Matt Stoller.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about death/disappearance, drowning, animal death, implied emotionally abusive relationships, birth and birth complications, loss/grief, and mental health struggles.
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About Us
Spirits was created by Julia Schifini, Amanda McLoughlin and Eric Schneider. We are founding members of Multitude, a production collective of indie audio professionals. Our music is "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com), licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
Amanda:
Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia:
And I'm Julia.
Amanda:
And this is episode 156: Myth Movie Night: Song of the Sea.
Julia:
Yes. I'm very excited because we are kind of revamping our Myth Movie Nights to focus less on the movie itself and more on the mythology behind it.
Amanda:
Yes. And we also know that this is a great film and we definitely recommend you rent it. So what we did is we just recapped the plot at the beginning of the episode, but we tell you where it is. So if you want to skip forward about two minutes and decide to watch the movie for yourself, that's the only place where spoilers happen.
Julia:
Yeah, it's exactly two minutes. We count it down. I made Amanda set a timer and then recap the story.
Amanda:
And I was like, "Ugh, it's Irish and I have a lot of feelings." But it was a great movie, Julia. I think you did a wonderful job. We really get into the mythology and folklore of the characters we meet, and we would love to know your thoughts about this slightly revamped Myth Movie Night format.
Julia:
Yeah. Thank you, bud. I appreciate that you said I did good.
Amanda:
I did.
Julia:
And you know who else did real good?
Amanda:
Is it our newest patrons?
Julia:
Yes. We're actually recording this a little early, so the newest patrons will get a thank you after the Thanksgiving break. But we just want to say we're thankful for all of you. We're going to add special compliments for you next week.
Amanda:
We absolutely are. And we are joined this and every week by our Supporting Producer level patrons, Philip, Julie, Hannah, Alpha Dogs, Debra, Molly, Megan, Skyla, Samantha, Sammie, Josie, Neil, Jessica, and Phil Fresh.
Julia:
Yeah. As well as our Legend Level patrons. They are also made of stone in our mountains. Morgan, Emily, James, BM Me Up Scotty, Audra, Chris, Mark, Ayla, Cody, Mr. Folk, Sarah, and Jack Marie.
Amanda:
Indeed they are, Julia. Indeed they are. Will you remind us what we were drinking this episode?
Julia:
Yeah. I actually made a cocktail that's kind of inspired by the original cocktail we made for our Selkie episode, the Salty Dog. But I gave it kind of an updated twist, so I added a splash of white cranberry juice to kind of mellow out the grapefruit. And then I also recommend using a smoked gin for this one instead of your traditional floral gins or dry gins. So a really great smoked gin. You can find one from a distillery called Empire Spirits Projects. It is extremely, extremely good. It's got kind of a toasted marshmallow meets bonfire flavor and it's incredible.
Amanda:
All of my favorite things. I'm going to have to make one for myself as I am bringing my holiday reading with me on my Thanksgiving trip. Top of that pile is the book that I want to recommend this week. It is called Goliath by Matt Stoller. If you're here for the anti-capitalism part of Spirits, this is absolutely the book for you. This is the description that the publisher wrote, which I thought was just so apt: "A startling look at how the concentrated financial power and consumerism transformed American politics, resulting in the emergence of populism and authoritarianism."
Julia:
Wow.
Amanda:
Matt has a newsletter called BIG, which is about giant colossal companies and monopolies. I have been a fan for, I guess, months and months at this point. The book really gets you there. Yvonne, a friend of the show, said to me that every 10 pages you're just reassessing everything you think you know, and it truly is that kind of book. So I definitely recommend it. And by the way, if you want to browse our past recommendations, they are linked to you in the show notes of every episode that we recommend stuff in. So you can browse our past episodes really easily on spiritspodcast.com or go to bit.ly/spiritsreads to look at our Goodreads, where we have a shelf of all the books we've recommended.
Julia:
I was just about to recommend the Goodreads. Thank you, Amanda.
Amanda:
Oh, you're very welcome.
Julia:
What else do we have coming up for our dear, dear listeners?
Amanda:
We have just two reminders for you this week. One is that we are going to be in Austin for a live show on February 27th, so I would love to see all of you there. You can give us hugs if that's your jam, you can take pictures if you want, we can sign your various books and posters, which is so kind. And we're going to do a very fun live show, so we really can't wait.
Julia:
It's also the day before Amanda's birthday.
Amanda:
Oh, it is. Yes. That's at multitude.productions/live.
Julia:
Yes. Buy a ticket for Amanda's birthday. That's your present this year.
Amanda:
Listen, I'm so excited. It's going to be great. We can meet some conspirators, it's going to be amazing.
Julia:
It's going to be great.
Amanda:
And secondly that Thanksgiving means that holiday shopping season is upon us, and capitalism is a bummer, but if you do need to participate in this semi-meaningless exchange of goods, consider doing it from Multitude. So you can get your holiday shopping done at multitude.productions/merch. All of our new merch for Spirits, for Multitude itself, and for all the other shows will be shipping in time for the holidays.
Julia:
And also, if our merch does well, that means we could have more merch in the future. So consider buying something.
Amanda:
We're working on a few things, but we don't want to make too many new things at once. So if there is good demand, if those beanies are going well, if they're flying off the shelves, then we'll be able to make new items for you to enjoy in the new year. So please let us know what you think of this new Myth Movie Night and without further ado, enjoy Episode 156: Song of the Sea.
Julia:
So Amanda, we have a Myth Movie Night today.
Amanda:
Oh, we do, Julia. Excuse me as I wipe away the tears of my sea because this movie was so moving.
Julia:
Oh yeah. We did Song of the Sea, which is all about Celtic and Irish mythology. It was extremely good. I do want to say up at the top here, we're going to be doing our Myth Movie Nights a little bit differently moving forward.
Amanda:
Yeah. We love having a glass of wine and talking about the movie that we saw, but we also know that this is our mythology and folklore podcast. So we loved trying out the Myth Movie Night format over the last few months, and based on the feedback you gave us in our survey ... which thank you to all you beautiful nerds who filled out our survey ... we're going to be kind of recapping the plot at the top, that way if you want to watch the movie yourself or you don't want to be spoiled, you can just kind of skip the first couple minutes of the Myth Movie Night episode. We're going to be making it two minutes only so you know exactly how far forward to skip, and then we're going to get into just the mythology of it and use the movie as a jumping off point to discuss the mythology of that story, character, region, whatever it is that we've selected.
Julia:
Yeah. So I feel like we should probably switch it off who does each Myth Movie Night. Do you want to try it first, or do you want me to go for it first?
Amanda:
I will do it.
Julia:
Ooh, okay. I'm going to put a time on for you then. Two minutes on the clock. Are you ready?
Amanda:
I'm ready.
Julia:
Okay. One, two, three, go.
Amanda:
So Conor is a lighthouse keeper. His wife is adorable, and then of course dies, so he thinks tragically. Then her two little kids are growing up. She has an older son who is so caring of his little sister, Saoirse, who the mom had and then left and we think she might be dead ... But no, she's a selkie, don't worry about it. So Ben, the kid, is very kind of mean to his sister because he has a lot of grief that he doesn't know what to do with because he's a child. Saoirse, his sister, gets kind of rambunctious and finds this white sealskin coat in her dad's closet, so she puts it on and then just walks into the sea, as kids do. And she's a selkie, oh my God. She becomes an adorable little baby seal and is extremely adorable.
But then their granny, who lives in the city and was visiting for her birthday, comes and is like, "No, this is unacceptable. She can't be doing this. We have to go to the city." The dad, Conor, throws the coat into the ocean, which, please no, Conor, don't do that. Made Baby Yaga vibes of locking things in chests and throwing them into the sea. And they go to the city. Saoirse gets sick and Ben realizes that there is something about what's happening, that she needs the coat, she needs to be home, she needs to go back to the lighthouse ... where they live, by the way, the lighthouse island. It's very cute.
Then they have a bunch of adventures and they run into a bunch of mythological creatures. They convince a bus driver to take two unaccompanied minors onto a bus, which was hilarious.
Julia:
30 seconds.
Amanda:
And basically, they meet this owl witch mother who not only is trying to repress all of the selkies and capture the wills of the mythological creatures around her, but she also captured the emotions of her son, the giant upon which the lighthouse stands. So then they convince her to set them all free, they defeat her. She's a selkie now and lives as a human.
Julia:
And done. Good. Good job. There we go. All right, that was pretty good. I think you hit most of the points there. I'll also point out that Saoirse's mute until she gets her selkie skin back and she's able to sing the song of the sea, which brings all the fairies and allows them to leave the human world and go back to the Otherworld.
Amanda:
At that point, Julia, I was crying so much that I was just kind of in it and not quite remembering it. But I also want to say, I love this movie. If you haven't seen it, it's definitely worth doing. I rented it for $4 on YouTube and it is absolutely lovely, beautiful, moving. It comes in both Irish and English for any Irish listeners out there who want to listen to it fully in Irish. The singing was great, the animation is beautiful and not a style I've seen before, so two thumbs up.
Julia:
Fun fact. Two of the actors did both the English and the Irish version.
Amanda:
What talented people.
Julia:
And one of them is Conor, who is played by the actor who is Mad-Eye Moody.
Amanda:
Really?
Julia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Fun fact.
Amanda:
Oh no. I didn't know that.
Julia:
And in the English version, Bronagh, who is the mother and the selkie, she is played by the same woman who plays Blue Diamond on Steven Universe.
Amanda:
Adorable.
Julia:
Fun fact. She's just sad and Irish in everything she does.
Amanda:
What a mood. But Julia, I mean, there is so much here to discuss in terms of the creatures we meet along the way and the Irish folklore we get into, so I am your captive audience. Let's just talk about everything you have to share with me about all of these great creatures. I want to learn much more about them.
Julia:
All right. Where do you want to start?
Amanda:
Why don't we start with selkies?
Julia:
Okay.
Amanda:
I know that we've covered them on Spirits before, one of my favorite episodes, episode two. But tell me a little bit more about this idea of the skin being taken from them or captive. And at the end, something that we say is a character has to make a choice ... going back to our non-spoiler talk ... about being a selkie or being a human. So is there kind of origins of being half-selkie, half-human? How do people live in both identities?
Julia:
Okay, so this is actually really interesting. As we've talked about in our second episode ever of Spirits, selkies are basically magical creatures. They tend to appear as women with dark hair. Sometimes they're men, though. It depends. Usually they're women, though. They usually have beautiful singing voices, but again, selkies aren't connected to a song that affects other fairy folk in traditional mythology.
Amanda:
Right. So this was a plot device of the movie.
Julia:
A little play on things. It's fine, though. Basically, they can transform into seals by wearing a magical sealskin, and they appear as human when they take it off. So typically in selkie stories, a man will steal the selkie's coat in order to make her his wife and then keep her from returning to the sea. So she can't turn into a seal unless she has the skin. The coat, they keep saying. In my head I'm like, pelt or skin. I'm like, "No, that makes it sound worse." Coat is nice, though.
Amanda:
It is.
Julia:
The selkie will then bear the man children, and usually either she will find the coat herself or her children will find it, and then she returns back to the sea, sometimes never to be seen again, sometimes visiting her children in seal form. And then sometimes she'll even take her children back to the sea with her. So that kind of plays into the end of this film where she has to make that decision.
Amanda:
Nice.
Julia:
I'm curious if you think that Bronagh chose to stay with her husband and then the call of the sea became too much, or if you think that Conor stole hers away. I think it's a children's movie, so I don't think Conor did that to her, but that's just me.
Amanda:
Yeah. I definitely got the vibe that this was a healthy, loving relationship and maybe ... So my hypothesis here was that the birth was challenging and maybe she had to go back to the sea to have her full faculties and healing about her. But no, I definitely got the vibe that she was trying to live this life and then either out of necessity, or because, like you said, the lore became too strong, she needed to return.
Julia:
Yeah. I think that makes sense, too, and kind of, from what we know of the plot, explains why Saoirse is half-selkie but Ben is not, because there is that magical birth that happens.
Amanda:
Yeah, that's a good point. I also wondered, where does the coat come from? Okay, so an infant is born. Is she born with the coat? Is the coat the placenta? Is the coat a daemon that pops into existence next to her? Was she born as a seal in the water perhaps, and then the mom left her on land and returned to the sea?
Julia:
Yeah, I think it's the latter one. I think it's a situation where it's not like-
Amanda:
You don't think the placenta is a sealskin.
Julia:
Where did that baby get that skin from? That's not a thing we ask ourselves when children are born.
Amanda:
No, that's very true. Yeah. I have to imagine it was some kind of ... either the birth was in the water because it had to be, or something along those lines.
Julia:
Yeah. Interestingly when I was doing my research again, I was looking up how selkies are associated with song, and there's a couple of really interesting folk songs about selkies, the most popular one being the Great Silkie of Sule Skerry, which is the story of a woman who gives birth to the son of a selkie who then comes to take the child away from her and predicts that the woman will then marry a gunner on a whaling ship who will eventually harpoon and kill both her child and the father while they're in seal form. It's very sad.
Amanda:
Oh, that's killer. That's very folk song.
Julia:
It's very, very sad. There's some versions of it that have 90 verses.
Amanda:
Oh my. Great epic poem style.
Julia:
Yeah. I'll link it to the editor notes that we put in for our patrons, but it's very interesting.
Amanda:
That's cool. But there isn't traditionally a kind of siren/selkie tie in here where the selkies have some kind of song that is alluring or powerful.
Julia:
No, it's just said that they're beautiful singers, which I think is alluring on its own. But they're not sirens in the idea that they call people to them, you know?
Amanda:
Totally. Well, let's maybe get into then the other stories that we encounter in this movie. Is there something about Mac Lir, the giant who is turned to stone?
Julia:
Of course there is, Amanda. Thank you for asking.
Amanda:
Yay.
Julia:
So, Mac Lir is the ruler and guardian of the Otherworld, Tír na nÓg, which is ... I hope I pronounced that right. Thank you, Celtic speakers. Which is also known as the Land of the Young. So it's referred to the Land of the Young because of the fact that Mac Lir was said to have a cauldron of regeneration that would help keep the Tuath Dé Danann, the gods of Celtic mythology, from growing old, getting sick, or dying.
Amanda:
That's some serious stuff.
Julia:
Yeah. So Mac Lir specifically means, "son of the sea," so he is the sea god who took over for his father, Lir. As far as I can find, he's not related to Macha, although there doesn't seem to be any indication that he has a mother in the actual stories that I could find.
The story that we specifically see in Song of the Sea is actually one of the stories about Lir instead of Mac Lir. It's known as The Children of Lir. In it, a goddess becomes jealous of the life of Lir, like all of his happy family and his wife and his children, so she turns them into four white swans which then sing out to Lir and tell him what the goddess has done. That loss of his family makes Lir morn, which as the movie said, makes Lir cry so much that he begins to flood the sea with his tears.
Amanda:
Yeah, wow. It reminded me of a legend I heard about when I was last in Ireland and Northern Ireland, Finn MacCool. Have you heard this one?
Julia:
Yes, yes. But tell me it anyway.
Amanda:
It's the sort of origin story of the Giant's Causeway, which is a beautiful ... I think it's a World Heritage site, but it's a beautiful natural volcanic rock formation in Northern Ireland. The idea is that there was this giant, Finn MacCool. He was married and then ... Finn MacCool gets up to a lot of stuff in Irish folklore. There is a famous scene where he is dressed as a baby and put in a cradle because he is in a woman's house he's not supposed to be, or someone else comes to find him. I forget the details. His son, Oisín, also becomes a great poet, which is exciting.
But the tie-in to the Giant's Causeway is that legend has it that he built these ... they're octagonal rocks that are gigantic tall pillars from the sea floor that make a rock formation above water. It's so stunning. But that he built that as a stepping stone linked to Scotland so as not to get his feet wet.
Julia:
Sure. Because when you're a giant, the last thing you want to do is get your feet wet.
Amanda:
Well, he didn't mind getting wet, apparently sometimes, because he also once scooped up part of Ireland to fling it at a rival but he missed and then it landed in the middle of the Irish Sea and became the Isle of Man.
Julia:
Yeah, that sounds right. Mac Lir, I think, is actually tied to the Isle of Man.
Amanda:
Oh really? That's exciting.
Julia:
One of his epitaphs ... I can't remember exactly which one it is, but he's said to be from the Island of Man.
Amanda:
That's awesome. But in this case, he relates to Macha, who is an owl grandma? Tell us about Macha.
Julia:
Yeah, so Macha we actually discussed when we were doing the Morrigan episode. She's the goddess specifically associated with land, fertility, war, and kingship because of that story about the horse race and her giving birth. Do you remember this one?
Amanda:
Yes. That one I got.
Julia:
Yeah, so her husband brags that she's faster than any of the king's horses. She's forced to race the king's horses even though she's pregnant with twins. She ends up winning the race but then immediately giving birth while she's around all these men and she's real pissed about it. So she curses all of the men that made her run that race by, "making them feel as weak as a woman in childbirth at their greatest time of need," and that the curse would last for nine generations.
Amanda:
Very metal. I love it.
Julia:
Yeah. I'm into it, Macha. Badass bitch. So in an interview with the creator though, he said he specifically based her off of Celtic witches that were known as the Cailleach ... or it's kee-yak. There's two different pronunciations. I found them both online. I am sorry if one of them is wrong.
Amanda:
We're doing our due diligence.
Julia:
These are kind of corrupted versions of the goddess that were instead just seen as witches. However, all of these stories specifically centered around motherhood, so all of these witches were associated with being crones but also mothers.
Amanda:
That's really fascinating because usually the crone is a seen as a sexless and unmaternal woman figure.
Julia:
Yes. I think it's kind of implied. And we see that with the association between Macha in the film and the grandmother character in the film. They're played by the same person ...
Amanda:
I suspected.
Julia:
... and they're obviously stylized in the same way. Yeah. The Gaelic name for the barn owl ... which is one of my favorite birds of all time, by the way ... is translated as, "the night witch."
Amanda:
Ooh.
Julia:
Sneaky.
Amanda:
That's incredibly metal versus "the barn owl," which sounds like the domestic, I don't know, house mouse of birds.
Julia:
Which also, house mice, very cute. But you know, what can you do?
Amanda:
They are very cute. You know, Julia, I do have a little diversion here to tell you, which is as a child I elected to take more classes on Saturdays, which was extremely fun.
Julia:
You've revealed that to me before, but continue.
Amanda:
Yes, I know. Just for the audience. And one of the classes I took was about ... I don't know what it was exactly, maybe fossils or nature, something along those lines. But we dissected an owl pellet, which was fucking awesome.
Julia:
Yes. I might have taken that class with you.
Amanda:
I think you were there. I remember you really enjoying it along with me, so it could have been ... Maybe it was a field trip then, but it was fucking metal and I loved it so much.
Julia:
It is very cool. Owl pellets and owl digestion is really, really interesting. Anyway, that's a story for another time and not about Spirits Podcast.
Amanda:
In this case, Macha is digesting ... or not digesting ... feelings.
Julia:
Yeah. So many of the Celtic witches that are this version of Macha were known as storm hags, which is why we see in the film that the emotions that she is taking in-
Amanda:
Tag yourself, I'm storm hag.
Julia:
The emotions that she's basically sucking out of these people and turning them into stone are seen as weather patterns, which also that entire scene made me cry like a fucking baby.
Amanda:
Yes. Oh my God.
Julia:
I was like, "Yes, I understand, Macha. If I could remove all of my emotions and the emotions of everyone else in the world, that would be lovely. That'd be great."
Amanda:
I know. I was like, "This is the central problem of my adulthood."
Julia:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Thanks Macha, just making me cry like a little babe.
Amanda:
Yeah, I am intending to describe this plot to my therapist later today so that I can be like, "See, look. It me."
Julia:
Yes. And actually, the concept of the fairies turning into stone when Macha drains them of their emotions is based on the belief that the Cailleach would turn into stone in springtime and then return to their normal form on Samhain in order to rule over the winter months.
Amanda:
Julia, it's also me. How do I choose between stone during summer and storm hag? I think I'm a storm hag.
Julia:
How can you ... Oh, no. Don't want to be stone during summer. Stone's so hot during summer.
Amanda:
Stone doesn't sweat in summer. I know it does sometimes.
Julia:
Stone doesn't sweat, but also, hot. Hot, hot, hot.
Amanda:
I don't know. I just don't want to have a body.
Julia:
Think of all that heat and no release.
Amanda:
I just don't want to have a body, A, most of the time, but B, especially during the summer months.
Julia:
Okay. That's fair and valid. I'm not going to take that away from you.
Amanda:
I'm sorry. I'm just finding a lot that's very relatable.
Julia:
The fairies that we see in the movie, some of the few remaining ones, probably more inspired by later interpretations of the Fae, so closer to leprechauns than the shining fair folk of early traditions. We get that wonderful scene on Halloween where the Fae dress up in costumes and they're able to blend in with the human children, which is kind of the whole point of Halloween and Samhain as we've talked about in past episodes. Samhain is the time where the fair folk were said to be more present in the human world, and costumes were originally worn to disguise children from the fairy folk ... which is why this is a cool little twist, because it's all the children wearing it and then they wear it to blend in.
Amanda:
It's adorable.
Julia:
It's very cute. I love it so much. Yeah, so that's a majority of the Fae. We see later in the transformation of the film, when Saoirse is able to release everyone from their bonds on the mortal world. We see them become more pure versions of themselves, the more noble fair folk, the kind that we think of when we think of the Fae rather than the little trickster spirits.
Amanda:
Yeah. It's definitely sort of implying that being shackled to Earth or being in the city is kind of corrupting them in some way, or that her song made them into the best versions of themselves.
Julia:
Right. Or just that they've existed for too long alongside the mortal world.
Amanda:
Yeah. I really like that. Some kind of spillage happening there.
Julia:
Yeah. And returning to the other world kind of revives them because of that cauldron of regeneration or whatever. I think the only main character we haven't really talked about in terms of mythology so far is The Great Seanachaí, which I was researching this and I realized it wasn't a character so much as a ... A seanachaí is a storyteller or historian in Irish folk tradition.
Amanda:
I didn't know that.
Julia:
Yeah. So they were typically servants to chiefs of tribes and helped them keep track of the history and other important information for their clan, and then they were called upon to retell the histories through various storytelling methods. So they were basically important keepers of oral tradition.
Amanda:
Amazing.
Julia:
Yeah, so I'm not sure exactly where the hair aspect comes into it. I guess when you have an oral tradition, that's harder to kind of pass along. But each hair representing the story of someone or something or a clan, I really liked that concept.
Amanda:
I loved that, too. And there's certainly so many examples of using natural hairs and fibers to make tapestries, for example, that are keeping track of these stories or different cultures have different kinds of knotted ropes and other ways of keeping information without necessarily doing written system the way we know it now. So I just thought it was cool. I'm sure it also indicates that ... Often it's a senior in the community who has this kind of knowledge, and so to see ... It was very giving me sort of Hades Underworld Cerberus kind of vibes, because it was very cavernous and also very sweet. A little bit creepy but very cool.
Julia:
You know what it kind of reminds me of?
Amanda:
Yeah?
Julia:
The Giver.
Amanda:
That's very true. Yeah, that book cover ... I had the soft cover edition with just an old man with a beard on the front.
Julia:
Yeah, that's true. For people who don't know The Giver, Amanda, can you give us a brief summary of it?
Amanda:
Oh, phew. Yeah.
Julia:
Brief summary, please.
Amanda:
It is by Lois Lowry and the world ... basically there is one truth teller, the seer, the Giver, who knows everybody's occupation that they should have and their place in life and their fate. And so you're assigned an occupation when you reach whatever the age of majority is, like 13 or something, and then you have to kind of deal with that. And the protagonist in the book of The Giver is selected to be the next Giver, and so we kind of see what that means and why exactly this knowledge is held from others. There's a big twist that's very sort of futurist/sci fi kind of book even though it seems like mostly a ... I don't know, normal town tale. Actually we read it a couple years ago. It is still as staggering as it was when I first read it.
Julia:
Yeah. It is a stunning book. I really, really like it. But the idea of passing down the traditions and memories of a community from one person to another, I really, really love that concept.
Amanda:
No, totally.
Julia:
Oh man. And then being able to call upon those stories at will or when needed in times of confusion or dire hope.
Amanda:
Totally.
Julia:
Amanda, why don't we take a quick break here. We'll go get a refill and then we can talk about some of the ... I don't know, the implications of the film and whatnot.
Amanda:
Our very many feelings.
Julia:
Yes. All of our feelings.
Amanda:
All right. Let's go.
Julia, I am traveling this week for Thanksgiving to beautiful Nashville, Tennessee, which is a city I love going to. What I love a little bit less is air travel. It sometimes gets annoying, whether it's the leg room, as I am a very tall lady, or waiting in lines or getting up early. There's a lot of stuff that can make your day go a little bit awry. But something I know I can count on on this trip and every trip is my Away suitcase.
Away makes thoughtful products built for the way modern travelers see the world. They started by making the perfect suitcase and they now offer a range of essentials, all of which can help make your travels more seamless and less frustrating. I have extremely high standards when it comes to luggage because I travel a lot and I have tried a lot of different suitcases and backpacks, but genuinely, Away suitcase is one of the absolute best I have ever tried. They have a really wonderful, smooth wheels that are all directional so you can just kind of push it and then it glides away from you in the airport, which helps because I have a lot of books that I am bringing on this trip. They are also designed to last a long time. They're durable, they can withstand even the roughest of baggage handlers, if you choose to check your luggage. They have a TSA-approved combination lock. They have a great organization system that includes a pressure pad compression pad that will help you pack more in the suitcase and a hidden laundry bag so you can separate your dirty clothes as your trip goes on.
Julia:
I love separating my dirty clothes.
Amanda:
There's also a 100-day trial on everything Away makes so you can test it, travel with it, do whatever you need to do for 100 days, and if you decide it's not for you, you can return any non-personalized item for a full refund, no ifs, ands, or asterisks.
Julia:
And the nice part, too, is Away products are designed to last a lifetime. So if any part of that suitcase breaks, Away's customer service team ... who are awesome, by the way ... will arrange to get it fixed or replaced for you.
Amanda:
And there's free shipping and returns, so really, what else do you need to know? Well, you can actually get $20 off any suitcase or bag at awaytravel.com/spirits and use promo code SPIRITS during checkout.
Julia:
Yep. Again, that's $20 off any suitcase or bag by visiting awaytravel.com/spirits and using the promo code SPIRITS during checkout.
Amanda:
Thanks, Away.
Julia:
Amanda, the holiday season can be extremely stressful, as you and I both know. You're going to be traveling, I'm going to be cooking dinner for family members. It's going to be a lot. The last thing I want is to be kept up at night by the idea that my potato gratin might not be perfect.
Amanda:
Which, I totally would be.
Julia:
I know, right? And luckily, Amanda, that's why I use Calm. Because calm is the number one app for sleep and relaxation. It really can transform your nights, which means you're less stressed and less worked out during the days. Their Sleep Stories are fantastic, like we've said many times on this podcast. It's bedtime stories for adults. Wouldn't you want to fall asleep to stories read to you by Levar Burton or Nick Offerman? I want Nick Offerman to tell me about woodcutting. Please.
Amanda:
Yeah. Love that.
Julia:
So if you go right now to calm.com ... that's C-A-L-M dot com slash spirits, you'll get 25% off a Calm premium subscription, which includes hundreds of sleep stories and tons of other content like soothing music, like artists like Sam Smith. Sam Smith is on Calm.
Amanda:
I know.
Julia:
Guided meditations, breathing exercises, and so much more. I mean, 60 million people use Calm. Join them today, get the sleep that you need. Again that is calm.com/spirits for 25% off their Calm premium subscription, which includes unlimited access to Calm's entire library. And new content is added every week. You can get started today at calm.com/spirits. That's calm.com/spirits.
Amanda:
Thanks, Calm. Julia, my body is not what it once was.
Julia:
We're getting old.
Amanda:
As I get older ... Like I slept on my stomach last night and woke up with a backache and it was like, "Why?" But something that is actually very seamless about needing to adapt to new realities for myself is eyeglasses. I, at one point, did not update my prescription for like four or five years, and it turns out I needed a different kind of prescription. So I'm really glad that I was about to use Warby Parker to update my glasses and get frames that I really felt suited me. They have an online quiz where you answer a few quick questions so they can suggest some great looking glasses that are personalized to fit your face and your style, and a free home try on program. This lets you order five pairs of glasses and try them on for five days with no obligation to buy.
I did this after taking the quiz and it was extremely helpful. I ordered a couple of frames that I thought, like, "I don't know if this is going to work for me." But then when I actually got them on in my house and I could try it on, it was clear that they were well made, they looked really, really stylish. It was super easy to just pop them right back on in that box and send it back to Warby Parker, and I could ask for my input of my coworkers, my partner, and of you. So it was really great to be able to feel like I was making a choice that I felt really good about.
Julia:
Yeah. You know what's cool, too, besides the home try on, which is awesome? If you have an iPhone X, you can actually virtually try on glasses. You can download the Warby Parker app and then you use their virtual try on system which allows you to try on glasses. You can see the color, you can see the texture, and see if the size is right on your face, which is always my problem when I try on glasses. I'm never sure if the size looks right.
Amanda:
Totally. And I know you are a big fan, Julia, of the blue light filtering lenses.
Julia:
I am.
Amanda:
Those are available along with anti-glare and anti-scratch coatings, which come on their lenses already included. The prices start at just $95 with prescription lenses. That is absolutely killer, and I love the fact that I can get one or two or three pairs of glasses from Warby and have one for home, for work, for my bag. It's wonderful.
Head to warbyparker.com/spirits to order your free home try on. Take the quiz to find a pair that is perfect for you today. The home try on program ships to you for free and includes a prepaid return shipping label. So go to warbyparker.com/spirits to order your free home try ons and take the quiz today.
Julia:
Again, that's warbyparker.com/spirits to order your free home try on.
Coming back, Amanda, I would really love ... and I feel like you're going to have a lot of opinions on this. I'll let you just take it away. I would love to talk about the way that the film presents city versus countryside dynamic, as well as the dichotomy of old Irish lore and then Catholicism, religious symbols that we see throughout the film.
Amanda:
Ooh, interesting. I didn't pick up as much on that as I was watching, so I'll be curious to hear what you thought on the latter topic. But I was actually really taken with the idea of different lifestyles being better for different people. The granny comes in partway through the film, as I was saying in the recap, and basically says, "Hey kids, living on a remote lighthouse is not the best for you. I'm going to take you to the city and that is where you should be. It's what you should be doing. This is how you should dress, this is how you should be acting, the way your life should go." So it definitely does happen. They go from a rural area to an urban one, but the part of that I was focusing on was more like different kinds of lifestyles are right for different people and there is no universal should.
I'm Irish-American, not having grown up in Ireland and I don't have a ton of family left there, but my understanding of where my dad comes from and the culture partly that was transmitted to me and my family is very much one of, "Don't be out of line. This is how a respectable life should go, and don't be too eccentric." And I'm sure there's versions of that in every person's upbringing, because part of, I guess, a parent's job is to teach your kid how to be safe, and often being safe means being part of the group. But in this case, that's what Conor wants to do. That's where he's happy. That's what his version of what his life should be is, and he makes a really nice life for his kids. So I don't know, I thought it was mostly, again, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the other, and if you have something that really works for you, even if it's different, you owe it to yourself to do what's responsible for you.
Julia:
Yeah, no, I think that's really interesting. I got very much vibes of the grandmother wanting to take the children and bring them to the city as forced assimilation ...
Amanda:
Yeah, definitely.
Julia:
... in a lot of ways, and we see that a lot when colonizing religious forces come into work. I might be projecting, but I noticed that in the film we see very few representations of Christianity and Catholicism until we reach the city. Then the first scene that we have in the city is in the sitting room of the grandmother's house and we see a portrait of Jesus on the wall. You leave that room, you see a cross on the wall as well. As they're following the Fae and they escape at one point ... actually right before they get on the bus, they stop at the corner and there's a church with a ... I think it's a Virgin Mary statue overlooking them. And then as they're returning back to the countryside, back to the lighthouse, they stop and one of the respites that they have is at a holy well, which Ben makes a note of as he's traveling from the countryside to the city. This is kind of the central point in between the city and the lighthouse.
And holy wells are actually really interesting because they are this combination of Irish folk traditions and Catholicism. These areas like holy wells were Pagan sites that held importance to the fairy folk and where people would leave offerings in order to not have the Fae fuck with them. Then when Christianity and Catholicism were introduced to the areas, those were converted into religious sites. So often holy wells were places that you would worship a fertility goddess, but with the introduction of Christianity, they were then changed to Mary the Blessed Mother.
Amanda:
Yeah. Man, that is really fascinating. I mean, that's definitely a motif, no doubt about it. I think part of this, too, is that sort of majority and going with the way the majority does. Maybe this space is really important to the grandma and that's just kind of incidental, or maybe the city has those kinds of centers of respectability, tradition, teaching, routine that are lacking in the grandma's mind from the lighthouse. But I think that's really fascinating, and I don't know, I have always felt that an elective getting to know about religion is better than something that is forced. But at the same time, I recognize that that is a kind of cultural majority privileged position because I don't come from a world where I need to defend my faith or practice it in secret or try really hard to make sure that it's not eroded by active forces working against it.
Julia:
Yeah. I think that's fair. I just think that it's really interesting to show the cities are places of modernity, so to speak, and so in the case of Irish religion, modernity is Catholicism. And the countryside is, if you're speaking from the grandmother's perspective, backwoods and reductive. But they're the ones that are following these stories and actually are in touch with it and are interacting with it on a daily basis. Her son literally married a selkie, so ... couldn't do that in the city.
Amanda:
Those worlds definitely coexist. Maybe there is an underground selkie population in the city that we don't know about. I think that's part of the appeal of genres like fantasy novels set in cities where we get to see those fantastical elements in a setting that is so almost contradictory, but it shows that those two things can coexist sometimes, not peacefully. But yeah, I think that's a really good point to bring up.
Julia:
Yeah. No, I really, really like that. Fun fact. The shell flute that they are given by their mother ... one, very cool. Two, I was doing research on it and came to the conclusion that it's probably an ocarina, which I only thought was a Legend of Zelda thing.
Amanda:
Really?
Julia:
Didn't realize that that's an actual lay thing. But an ocarina is a type of vessel flute, which is basically a really early type of wind instrument. It can be made out of anything as long as it has 4 to 12 holes in order to make the notes. Fun fact.
Amanda:
That's extremely good. I remember my mom giving me a conch shell that I could listen to if I couldn't sleep, because I've been an anxious little blob my whole life.
Julia:
It's true.
Amanda:
But that really hit me right in the chest there because it was so sweet. And listen, there's a ton of depictions of grief that I imagine are really powerful for kids who are going through something like that, and even for adults. I feel like I learned a lot about ... Ben is mad and sometimes he lashes out, but he's ultimately protective and when the circumstances get dire, he snaps to action. Even though there still is all of this within him, trying to be a good big sibling to his sister, he still has to kind of deal with, acknowledge, and give himself space to feel those things if he wants to be as whole of a person and as helpful of a protector as he can be.
Julia:
Yeah. We also didn't talk about the dog at all. The dog's great.
Amanda:
Oh my God, no. Cú is amazing, and Conor, too. As a father, he is sticking to the world that he knows is best for him and that he wants to show his kids, but when his mom is pressuring him and saying that he's a bad parent, I understand why he would acquiesce. But it was just like ... That final kind of family reunion where they're all confronting the reality is just so powerful.
Julia:
Yeah. Loss and grief are just so permeating this story that it really, really hit me many times, many separate times in the movie.
Amanda:
Yeah, including that Macha lost her son and would rather have seen him made inert than suffer. And like you were saying earlier, that is such a relatable impulse, but also something that I find myself pushing back against all the time. Did you want to talk a little more specifically about what that looks like for you?
Julia:
Yeah. I mean, I think when it comes to it, I feel like a lot of times, for me personally, the way that my mental health issues kind of manifest are I am either at a 0 or an 11 90% of the time and there's no in between. I like to say that I've never had a hearth in my heart. I've only either burned fast and quick or had it cold.
Amanda:
Oh damn, girl. That's poetic.
Julia:
Yeah. Thank you. I try to think about it like that. But yeah, I think for me, if I had the option to be able to control what I feel and when, that would be so much easier for my entire life and mental health and just ability to live like a human. So I really, really related to Macha in that she's able to control herself. And we saw that, too, even with the grandmother being like, "I'm very emotional right now. I need to go take my medicine so I calm down." I was like, "Oof. Yeah girl. Yeah."
Amanda:
Yeah. Oh man, it's very different for me, but I definitely relate to some of the struggles. I feel like my empathy is at 11 at all times. As a kid, I cried if inert objects were suffering and wanted my stuffed animals to have an even rotation in my bed so none of them got sad. My Roomba is like my cleaning son and if he struggles to get over a threshold, I give him a little help because I don't want him to struggle. But in life, okay, that's sweet and all, but also it's a form of respect and love to let people figure out their own problems and to be honest with them.
So sometimes, if it's easier to not bring a problem to somebody, I won't bring it to them 9 out of 10 times. But I've had to really start pushing back against that, especially as a employer and in just adult relationships and friendships. You need to be honest with people. You need to respect them enough to give them the full situation and work with them to figure out what's next instead of me trying to preemptively solve all the possible problems that could possibly happen so no one's ever mad at me, right? Which is not a sustainable way to live.
Julia:
Not a good way of doing it, my friend. But I-
Amanda:
And not kind. It's not nice. I think it's nice, but it's not kind. It's not.
Julia:
No, no. And you need to be kind to yourself because end of the day, very few people will. I genuinely believe that there are good people in the world, but I also believe that when it comes down to it, a lot of people will look out for themselves first. And I think that it's only fair to look out for yourself first, because end of the day, you are what is surviving.
Amanda:
Yeah, that's very true.
Julia:
Also speaking of how Macha and the grandmother are parallels to each other, did you notice that in the scene where they were going to Macha's little hut, she has a TV antenna on the top of the house?
Amanda:
No I did not. Oh my God, that's so cute.
Julia:
She does. It's very good. Just the little details, I love that so much. You see the little stone fairies pop up in random places throughout the film. Like there's that one scene where Ben is like, "I know where I'm going. We shouldn't follow the weird conch lights anymore," and he leads her into the forest and there's just garbage bags and broken TVs, but also little stone fairies kind of hidden among them. It's so cool.
I really think that, out of all the things in this film ... one, the art style is gorgeous, but two, the little hidden details and showing how the modern world and the ancient world kind of still exist in the same dimension is really, really important and really, really powerful to me.
Amanda:
Yeah. And I think that's also a metaphor for kind of acknowledging the things that hurt you. Because you can toss as many bags of garbage in the forest as you want to, but there's still the fairies underneath it. And you can build as many houses and schools and towns and whatever, but there's still enchanted waters and Fae who live there and you're still impacted by the great tides of change that are created by things that are bigger than you. You don't have to believe in a selkie for the selkie song to impact your life at the end of the film. So to me, it's like putting it in the drawer and shutting that drawer is not always sufficient and dealing with what's underneath it all is not regression, but it's making sure you're setting yourself up for a good life going forward.
Julia:
Yeah. And I love that the movie definitely touches on generational cultural superstition. The roundabout, for example, that the fairies live in was probably created because the generations of people who lived there before knew that that was a fairy mound, and you don't fuck with a fairy mound.
Amanda:
Exactly.
Julia:
So, we'll build a roundabout rather than putting our road through here because we don't want the fairy to be upset.
Amanda:
There's so many details. I had to watch this on my tablet, but I'm going to re-watch it on the big screen because it was just stunning. I loved it so much.
Julia:
It is really, really, really good. I'm extremely happy with this film. I think that it's definitely been one of the highlights for me for our Myth Movie Nights so far.
Amanda:
Yeah. I'm looking forward to continuing to really focus on the mythological traditions in future films. Thank you for choosing it, Julia, and for teaching me even more about Irish folklore. And listeners, remember.
Julia:
Stay creepy.
Amanda:
Stay cool.