Episode 317: Pinocchio
/Throw out everything you know about Pinocchio. The story of this little puppet boy is wilder than you could possibly imagine. From the wild amount of fairy tale twists and turns to the surprising politics behind the tale, you’ll never look at Pinocchio the same again.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of body horror, child endangerment/abuse, violence, murder, animal death, imprisonment, robbery, dismemberment, hanging, illness, circuses, food insecurity, poverty, and debt.
Housekeeping
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Transcript
[Spirits Theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 317: Pinocchio.
JULIA: Yeah. And then so between the movie that was released on Netflix by Guillermo del Toro and the new season of Dimension 20, where he is played by the incomparable Lou Wilson. I have been thinking a lot about the story of Pinocchio lately, and I don't know about you, Amanda, but as a kid, I was never really a big fan of the Disney's version of Pinocchio. It was like a—it's a little too scary. It's kind of all over the place. It's just bad things happening to this—this kid?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. Also, like it just didn't have as many songs that were bangers as the rest of the Disney movies available to us as children.
AMANDA: Yeah, I think this is one that I watched once and thought hmm sad, don't need that and then never really revisited. So, I wonder what that wild little puppet is up to and if a cricket exists in the—in the folklore.
JULIA: Ooh, that's a great question, Amanda. So besides that, watching it once, like what are your memories of the story? Like what are the—the plot points that you can barely remember?
AMANDA: Yeah, there's an old man, there is a puppet that wants to be a real boy. There's a cricket providing a frame narrative and breaking the fourth wall. And at the end, he may or may not become real. That's—that's really all I'm working with right now.
JULIA: Okay, excellent. Excellent. So obviously, we think of Pinocchio kind of in the same vein that we think of our other classic fairy tales. And—and for good reason, because as we go through the story, you'll notice that there are a lot of classic fairy tale tropes and devices that are used in the story. But the Adventures of Pinocchio, which was written by Italian author Carlo Collodi was not really a fairy tale in the way that like Beauty and The Beast was, or Cinderella or Little Red Riding Hood, because while it uses a lot of fairy tale tropes, it is surprisingly more modern than I at least had originally assumed.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. So it's not like an aggregate of lots of the same type of story. It's more like a singular invention.
JULIA: Exactly. Much like we talked about with our Wild Hunt episode, which was, as you described, just kind of an amalgamation of various different tales that was in codified into one version. Yeah, no, the—the story of Pinocchio was originally published as a serial story. It was called The Story of the puppet, which was in an early weekly magazine for children in Italy.
AMANDA: Oh, a real Charles Dickens situation.
JULIA: It truly was. And I was like, I didn't realize that existed at this time. And then I was like, Oh, well Amanda, It started being published in 1881.
AMANDA: Alright, that is—that is peak periodical. Nothing. Those Victorian fuckers love more than publishing something once a day or once a week.
JULIA: They truly do. They truly do and it was really odd, because basically, the publication either ran out of mon—there was something going on where the publication stopped publishing it mid story, and then four months later brought it back because people were like, we need to know what happened to this puppet boy.
AMANDA: Julia, this is exactly the same logic that had me downloading fanfics I enjoyed as PDFs when I was 13. You can't count on anything people, you can't can't count on Live Journal. You can't count on social media platforms, you can't count on your periodical, save your issues.
JULIA: Well, luckily for people who loved the story, it was eventually published as a single book in 1883 with the complete works, so.
AMANDA: Thank God. I'm just—I'm picturing like, wholesome Italian craftspeople picketing at the offices, the shuttered offices of a newspaper, which in my mind, I'm picturing as like a travel agency in Queens, because those are the things I most often [4:09]
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: Being like, tell me about the puppet. Tell me about the puppet.
JULIA: That's so funny. Oh, my gosh, yes. So people outraged the fact that they didn't know what happened to that puppet, eventually was published as a single book, so could find it all in one place. And it since then, the story of Pinocchio has had real resonance with people you know, it's often quoted as one of the greatest works of Italian literature, which is saying a lot.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: It has inspired hundreds of adaptations, editions and translations, and it—it's just like, undeniably iconic in a lot of ways. For example, a liar is often referred to as having a long nose—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —and the same way that Pinocchio's nose grew every time he told a lie. There's even a paradox, Amanda that is named after Pinocchio.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: It's called the Pinocchio paradox. It is a version of the liar paradox, where when Pinocchio says, my nose grows now. It can neither be true nor false at the same time.
AMANDA: Oh, of course, because if it is growing, he's lying. But if he's saying that he's telling the truth.
JULIA: Yeah. Like, for example, when someone says this sentence is false, it can either be true nor false at the same time, you know what I mean?
AMANDA: Exactly. Unless like the sentence is a dog, and the dog's name is false. Which would just be mean to the dog.
JULIA: That would just be—that's a riddle Mandy, you've [5:26]
AMANDA: Julia, I became a fairy queen, again.
JULIA: It was not a riddle podcast. So Amanda, kind of with a little bit of that insight into the—the history of the book. Let's get into the meat of this episode, because we are going to be recounting the Adventures of Pinocchio, which is a 36 chapter book in case you were like, oh, this is gonna be a short story. It's not, it's not at all.
AMANDA: I want to know what happens in each and every of these 36 fuckin paid by the chapter chapters. I just—does Pinocchio adopt a dog? Does Pinocchio like lose something important? Does Pinocchio jump the shark? I'm dying to know.
JULIA: Several of those things do happen in the story.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: Those things that you've listed, kind of do happen in the story. So whatever you conspirators, Amanda, whatever you remember about the Pinocchio story, It is more unhinged and buckwild than you probably remember. I caught a few scenes from the book for time because again, 36 chapter book. But I do really think this kind of captures the essence of just how absolutely wild story is. Are you ready?
AMANDA: I'm buckling it. I'm ready.
JULIA: Right off the bat. The Pinocchio story starts extremely fucked up. There is a carpenter in Tuscany, Italy, who finds this wood that he's planning to carve into a table leg. But when he starts working on it, he's terrified to hear that the log cries out when he begins to carve it.
AMANDA: No, my worst nightmare.
JULIA: Yeah, truly, truly bad.
AMANDA: Oh no.
JULIA: So he does what any carpenter would do, which is he passes off the block of wood to his poor puppeteer neighbor Geppetto who he doesn't really like anyway, but Geppetto is like come here begging for a piece of wood as a gift, and he's like, you know what, you should take this fucking cursed piece of wood that I had.
AMANDA: This fucked up one. I'm pretty sure is the opposite of sort of the like neighborly spirit.
JULIA: Yes, of course he doesn't tell Geppetto that this is a fucked up piece of wood. He just like throws it at him. He's like, fine, just take it.
AMANDA: Julia, this is just like Eric's old roommate who would be like, hey, Eric, I got this cologne, but I hate how it smells. Do you want it? Or hey, Eric, I bought this shirt, I think it's really ugly, do you want it? Hey, Eric, I ordered this pasta, I don't like do you want it? And it's like, ah, I don't— I don't actually want your—the things that you deem shitty.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. But you did get a free airfryer from that guy, [7:42]
AMANDA: I did get it for you. And then later he was like, does it still smell like fish? And I was like, no, and if you had told me before, I wouldn't have taken it. But now that air fryer is tight as hell.
JULIA: Yeah, hell yeah, man. I love it. Alright, so luckily for Geppetto when he goes to carve the piece of wood, the piece of wood does not cry out, and he carves the block of wood into the shape of a wooden boy, which he names Pinocchio. And also, it's not a super pleasant moment where he's like, oh, I'm a sweet little boy, when—when I get animated, but becoming a piece of wood. Instead, as soon as his feet are carved and animated, he tries to kick Geppetto, just like kick him like a two year old having a tantrum.
AMANDA: Yeah, fine.
JULIA: Which again, for some reason does not deter Geppetto from finishing the puppet, he just like—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —I was gonna say. So when he finally finishes Geppetto is like, okay, well, let's teach you how to walk now. You need to know how to walk around and stuff like that. And then the moment that Pinocchio gets the hang of walking, he just books it out the door, and towards town just fully runs away.
AMANDA: I am hearing so many echoes to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.
JULIA: Ooohh.
AMANDA: That's almost exactly what happens when Frankenstein animates his creature, where the creature is like, why did you do this? This sucks. This is painful. What's happening? Why don't you love me, and ends up leaving to the woods to go figure out how to talk because his creator won't teach it. And it's like about the inherent trauma of being born ultimately.
JULIA: I love that comparison. I would have never put those two things together. Amanda, incredible.
AMANDA: Mwa.
JULIA: Chef's kiss.
AMANDA: Yeah. This was in English in 1818. So I mean, not impossible that the author would have read it.
JULIA: Yeah, that's a 100% true. So is Pinocchio just Frankenstein's monster who can say?
AMANDA: The pre-modern Prometheus.
JULIA: There you go
AMANDA: Is right here.
JULIA: So Pinocchio, now with his legs at work, he books it into town, but before he can really do much in town, he gets caught by a police officer, who is like, well, this child wouldn't just be running away for no reason, he must be being abused. And so he goes and he arrests Geppetto and just leaves Pinocchio alone.
AMANDA: Surprisingly progressive.
JULIA: Oddly enough, yes. Oh, Interesting. Pinocchio is left alone in Geppetto's house. While he's in there, a talking cricket. Ha ha ha ha.
AMANDA: Ha.
JULIA: Warns Pinocchio that things are going to go bad if he just continues being so disobedient, right?
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now Amanda, this is where it very harshly differs from the Disney movie. Instead of listening to this talking cricket as its conscious, sorry Jiminy, Pinocchio instead throws a hammer at the cricket killing it, even though he didn't do it on purpose. He just threw the hammer at it not knowing that it would kill cricket.
AMANDA: Sure. I mean, this is though, for children and so that sucks.
JULIA: Yeah, he's killed this cricket that was supposed to be giving him life advice. And next, he just like starts getting very hungry. So he's trying to find food around the house. He wants to fry up an egg. But when he cracks it open, a little bird is already in there and he's like—
AMANDA: Oh no.
JULIA: —and it flies away. And he's like, alright, fuck this house. I gotta find food somewhere else. And so he leaves.
AMANDA: Quick point of clarification.
JULIA: Yes?
AMANDA: Is he still a puppet?
JULIA: Yes. Still a puppet.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Fully just a puppet.
AMANDA: So the policeman isn't like, this is a puppet. He's like, oh, this is a child. Like, what's the—what's the logic there? Is there any?
JULIA: No, he's—he's a police officer. And he's like, well, this is—this is a thing that is moving around on its own. So it's probably a child even though it's very clear he's made of wood.
AMANDA: Okay, fair.
JULIA: So he goes over to a neighbor's house because he can't find food at Geppeto's.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And when he knocks on their door, the neighbor thinks he's like trying to pull a prank on him or something. And so he just dumps a bucket of water over Pinocchio instead, he's like getaway small child.
AMANDA: I love knowing this as a periodical because I am just picturing like, where the chapter breaks are. And it's like, oh, figure out how to get out of this one.
JULIA: So—that's a great point. So what happens is Pinocchio cold, wet, tired, hungry, he goes back to Geppetto. And he lies down on the stove to dry off, and he falls asleep. And when he wakes up, he finds that his feet had been completely burned off.
AMANDA: Sure. Sure. Sure. Good lesson for children don't fall asleep on the stove.
JULIA: Sure, of course. So luckily, at this point, Geppetto has been released from prison. I guess they decided that they couldn't hold him.
AMANDA: Short stay.
JULIA: That maybe they were like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't a boy, it was a puppet, so you're free to go.
AMANDA: Fair.
JULIA: So Geppetto comes home and in a act of kindness that I certainly would not have done for this little wooden boy who got me thrown into jail. He carves Pinocchio and other pair of feet.
AMANDA: Okay, nice of him.
JULIA: Somewhat repentant, but mostly grateful that he can run around again. Pinocchio promises Geppetto that he will go to school like all the other good little boys and Geppetto is like, great. I love that for you. Here, I'm going to sell my coat, my only coat, and I'm gonna buy you a school book so that you can attend school.
AMANDA: Geppetto. No, did he want a child? Is that a sort of subplot in the movie?
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, like, the whole thing is Geppetto has been wifeless and childless and basically penniless all this time.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Well, I don't think it was necessarily like, I'm going to carve this little wooden boy to make myself a child. I think he's embracing fatherhood extremely at this point.
AMANDA: Gotcha.
JULIA: Of course, this is again, a very selfless act by Geppetto. But naturally, it is instantly thrown back in his face. So the next day, Pinocchio is walking to school. But as he's walking to school, he comes across the great Marionette Theatre, which he's like, oh, boy, this seems so cool. Other puppets like me, I love it.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So rather than going to school, he sells the school book that again that Geppetto just bought him, and buys a ticket to see the show.
AMANDA: He can't—he can't learn from a ticket.
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: I mean, you can once, but not for school.
JULIA: Theater can educate you—
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: But—so while he's watching this performance at this Marionette Theater, three of the puppets on stage like see another puppet in the audience, and they're like, oh, my guy, what—what's happening? And this angers the puppet master whose name is Mangiafuoco, which is the coolest name because it means fire eater.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: All about this. It's dope as hell. So Mangiafuoco seizes Pinocchio up, he's pissed that his play has been interrupted, and he threatens to use Pinocchio as firewood to cook his dinner.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: However, Pinocchio starts crying and this crying makes Mangiafuoco, he's like, I'm turned off from my supper. I don't want to eat now. Like, what—what's the deal with you kid? What's up with your family and stuff? And Pinocchio is like, oh, it's just me and my father, and my father is very poor. And Mangiafuoco has like a change of heart and just releases him, and even gives him five gold pieces for him and his father. Very generous of him.
AMANDA: Ohh. Okay.
JULIA: Like, oh, you poor son, go back to your father and—and you know, buy yourself a new book and go back to school. Now Pinocchio is like, oh, I got five coins. Excellent. I'm gonna head home. Of course not gonna make it all the way home because he's Pinocchio and he can't. So he runs into a fox and a cat on the way home again, very fairy tale thing, where these animals are talking to him and also scheming. So both the cat and the fox are pretending to be disabled in order to gain Pinocchio's trust. And Pinocchio is talking to them and be like, you can seem like very trustworthy gentleman, but a bird flies by and it's like Pinocchio, don't listen to them they're trying to con you. And the cat attacks and eats the bird before it can really warn him more.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: The fox and the cat then convinced Pinocchio that rather than quote-unquote “wasting his coins” what he should do, is he should go to the field of miracles and plant his coins there. They can grow a money tree.
AMANDA: Just like in animal crossing.
JULIA: Can you bury coins?
AMANDA: You can do that at animal crossing. Yeah.
JULIA: Oh my god.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: That's incredible. Okay.
AMANDA: Once a day a special little spot glow somewhere on your island, and if you dig it up, you dig up money, but Julia, don't fill in the hole because you can put more money back in from money tree.
JULIA: Well, Amanda they stole that from Pinocchio clearly, that's what happened.
AMANDA: Damn, Tom Nook, constantly stealing from others.
JULIA: So this field of miracles is supposed to be in a city called Catch Fools, and they're like come with us to Catch Fools, then you can do that, you can grow your money tree.
AMANDA: Okay. Julia, I know Pinocchio is a puppet who's about one day old, but I would not go to a place called Catch Fools and give them my coins.
JULIA: Well, Mandy, you're smarter than this puppet, so congratulations.
AMANDA: Nailed it. It's Fox's newest reality show. Are You Smarter Than This Puppet?
JULIA: Yeah, and I am. I am smarter than this puppet. So Pinocchio leaves the village with the cat and the fox, and they stop in an inn, where the cat and the fox dine in ditch. Basically, they leave Pinocchio to pay for their food.
AMANDA: Rude.
JULIA: And then they also leave a message with the innkeeper being like, tell that puppet boy that we were called away to care for the cat's kittens.
AMANDA: Oh God.
JULIA: But we're gonna meet him at the field of miracles tomorrow.
AMANDA: Oh yeah. Bring your coins buddy.
JULIA: Bring your coins buddy, the remaining coins. Because you had to spend one coin to pay for our food and your lodging. But tomorrow your four coins, they'll turn into a money tree. It's gonna be great.
AMANDA: Bummer.
JULIA: So the next morning before Pinocchio arrives in the city of Catch Fools, the ghost of the talking cricket, reappears to the puppet.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And tells him that this is a foolish endeavor and that you should take your money home to your father and return back to Geppetto. And Pinocchio, of course, ignores that cricket. He's like I killed you already cricket, you can't have good advice for me. And shortly after that, on the road to Catch Fools, the fox and the cat dressed as robbers ambush the puppet and rob him. Or at least try to rob him.
AMANDA: Brutal. They already had a con set up, and they con themselves again.
JULIA: Yeah, they did. So Pinocchio in his first like, somewhat smart act so far in the story. He hides the coins in his mouth, and he's able to escape after biting and injuring the cat.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: He bites off the paw of the cat.
AMANDA: Oh, dang.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So he flees into the woods, and in the woods, he finds this White House, right? And he's like, oh, please help me, and knocks on the door. And he's greeted by a young fairy with turquoise hair.
AMANDA: Oh, surprisingly sceney for an 1880s periodical.
JULIA: Pretty cool. I like it a lot.
AMANDA: Can you sense that I just love saying the word periodical?
JULIA: Yes, I—I do and I like it. Keep saying it.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: He's like, can you help me? Can you help me? and she's like, hey, sorry, I would love to help you, but I'm actually dead and I'm waiting for the hearse to arrive. Which is a wild thing to say.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Truly wild.
AMANDA: Next time someone is being overly persistent, and you need to get out of a date. And they're not taking any of your normal reasons and being you know, creepy. Just be like, sorry, I'm currently dead and—
JULIA: Currently dead.
AMANDA: —and the hearse is coming.
JULIA: It's imminent.
AMANDA: Just try. Just see.
JULIA: Just see how that works, you know.
AMANDA: Just see.
JULIA: And then later, you know, when they are really persistent, they show up at your house for a date, get your roommate to say, oh, she's been dead for 30 years.
AMANDA: No Julia, that would—that would give them the—the sort of like life experience to I don't know, write a good college essay, or like a novel or something. You don't want that—you don't want to give them that.
JULIA: Okay, you're right. You're fair.
AMANDA: Sorry to say no, sorry to know your idea but [19:03]
JULIA: I know it's too good. So Pinocchio also has the same reaction that we do where he's like, I'm sorry, what? And in that moment, the cat and the fox catch up with him and they drag him away. They try to hang him from a tree. Like just straight up kill him. But being a little wooden boy who does not have lungs, he cannot suffocate. And eventually, they grow bored. And they just kind of leave him there.
AMANDA: Okay, I mean, go for Pinocchio.
JULIA: Yeah. So once the fox and the cat leave, the turquoise-haired fairy, again, the coolest bitch in the story, she returns and she brings him back to her home. And in the process of like, he kind of like has gone limp. And she's like, I don't know if he's dead, if I have to treat him like what's going on here. So she calls three doctors to the house being like, how do I treat this little wooden boy? The first one's like, well, you can't because he's dead. The second one was like, oh no, he's definitely alive. Don't worry about it. And then the third one turns out again to be the ghost of the talking cricket.
AMANDA: Oh my. Practicing medicine?
JULIA: Yes. And he says the puppet will be fine. He has just been disobedient and he should return home to his father.
AMANDA: This cricket must love Geppetto because the puppet has done—Pinocchio has done nothing but to kill and then disrespect this cricket in that order.
JULIA: Yeah, he truly has. He's just like, really? I don't know why this cricket is so invested in Pinocchio's journey, but it's like he's haunting him basically.
AMANDA: You're right Julia. That's—there's a simpler explanation here.
JULIA: So the fairy takes the advice of the ghost the talking cricket.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: And nurses Pinocchio back to health. And when he becomes like, stable again, she's like, Hey, so what's the deal with the gold coins you received? And he's like, I don't have any gold coins, man, I don't know what you're talking about. And this is where we get the quintessential Pinocchio's nose grows when he lies for the first time.
AMANDA: Ah, I completely forgot about that.
JULIA: Yeah, so the fairy explains to him that his lies will make his nose grow every time. And then he continues to like lie and, lie and lie, to the point where he can't even get out the door because his nose has grown so big, that he likes—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —can't maneuver his way out.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: She basically is like, okay, I'll help you out here. She calls a flock of woodpeckers, who come into the house and then chisel Pinocchio's nose down to size.
AMANDA: Huge.
JULIA: And then she also is like, okay, I'm going to send you back to your father, but you're going to invite him to come live with us here in my house in the woods.
AMANDA: So was the hearse canceled?
JULIA: Hearse—as far as we know, the hearse is canceled.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So we will get into whether or not Pinocchio even makes it to find Geppetto. But first, we're absolutely going to need a refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. It is a new year and that is extremely exciting. We have so much fun, fun stuff planned for this new year in Spirits. But first, before we get started, I just need to thank our newest patrons Anna, Kadda, Minke, Amanda, and Maya.Thank you so much for joining us here on Patreon. And as a reminder, in case you might have forgotten our Patreon is now monthly. That means when you sign up your tier is what you pay each month. And if you decide you want to pay for a annual subscription, it's actually cheaper. And you can get the whole year for less than if you paid monthly. It's pretty great. I would check it out. Also, we have a bunch of exciting stuff in our new tiers as well. If you want urban legends every month, all patrons now have access to our monthly bonus urban legends episodes including our backlog over the past like several years at this point. You can also enjoy new benefits like tarot readings, bonus video advice, podcast, and even more ways to connect with us. And that is all at patreon.com/spiritspodcast where you can join the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Cicuta Maculata, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And of course our legend level patrons Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. All that and more at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I usually would provide a recommendation here for you and I—it's Glass Onion, go watch Glass Onion. I really love Glass Onion, It's so much fun. I had such a good time and rewatching it like to rewatcability of it is fantastic. Go watch Glass Onion, it's on Netflix. Go have fun. And I imagine that a lot of you are thinking about your New Year's resolution since it is the new year. And I want to say if you're thinking about podcasting, whether you're starting a podcast or if you're planning on upping your game for your own podcast. I would recommend the new classes that are available here at Multitude. Multitude is offering classes for podcasters by podcasters. You'll learn from weekly instruction, hands-on homework, and lots of valuable feedback from your instructor and classmates in their online classroom. They are starting with three classes for their first round. The first is sustainable podcasting refining structure and workflow, so your show works with you by Eric Silver. Podcast mixing and mastering for nonengineers by Brandon Grugle. And how to make a living as a digital creator by your very own Amanda McLaughlin. This is a great gift for aspiring podcasters or a great way for you to kick off 2023 by working on a new project. You can learn more about the dates, curriculum, and technical details or just registered today by going to Multitude.productions/classes. Or checking out the posts on the Multitude social media feeds. There's also a link in our show notes here. check it out Multitude.productions/classes. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now you probably are thinking hey, it's the new year and I want to do better at whatever it is you want to do better at. Sometimes it's I want to make better conversations. I want to improve my mental health. I want to make it so that I'm not always thinking about the negative, and thinking about the positive. And it would be really helpful if you could just buy a book that like teaches you how to do those things, right? But life doesn't come with a user manual. And when it's not working for you, it is normal to feel kind of stuck. So when I'm feeling that way, I usually go and I talked to my therapist, and BetterHelp is a great way to get therapy. 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JULIA: So for this episode, I was thinking about what cocktail would be like representative of what the story is about. And I toyed with the idea of a grasshopper in honor of the ghosts of the talking cricket, but it didn't quite seem right. But then I was thinking about how we have a really cool turquoise-haired fairy here who I love—
AMANDA: Yeah, we do.
JULIA: —she's my favorite. And I wanted to do something for that. So I'm going to recommend a turquoise daiquiri. It's light rum, triple sec, blue curacao, and then a mix of lime and pineapple juice.
AMANDA: Well Julia, I got blue curacao last week for [28:08] cocktail. And so I'm grateful to have another excuse to use it.
JULIA: I tried to use some ingredients, like over the course of a few weeks so that we can like use up the bottle for making the cocktails with the episodes. So this is for you listeners who actually go out and make the cocktails.
AMANDA: Very good.
JULIA: So Amanda, with these turquoise daiquiris in hand, we left off with Pinocchio setting out again to meet his father and bring him back to the fairy, right?
AMANDA: Do you know what chapter we're up to?
JULIA: At this point Amanda, we are in chapter 18 of 36.
AMANDA: I too can imagine that if the periodical shutdown somewhere around this time. I'd want to know what happens to that dang puppet.
JULIA: Absolutely. You're like, Oh, he's going out. He's gonna find his dad. He's gonna bring him back. Everything's gonna be great.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And then they just leave it off there. Oh, God, it'd be a nightmare.
AMANDA: Killer cliffhanger.
JULIA: I didn't intend to exactly stop this at the halfway point, but here we are, so.
AMANDA: Nailed it.
JULIA: Perfect timing for the midroll. Pinocchio set off to go find his father again. But out in the forest, he once again encounters the fox and the cat that tried to kill him. And again—
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: —they were disguised as robbers. So he doesn't know that it was the two of them. Right?
AMANDA: Sure. One of them is missing a paw though, no?
JULIA: Yes. So this time he notices that the cat is missing a paw and the fox is like, oh, yeah, we—we ran into a hungry wolf and we had to feed it to get away. Don't worry about that, though. Hey, remember how we told you about the Field of Miracles? And so they once again convinced Pinocchio to come with them to plant his gold, right? Actually, this is a real place. They weren't just pulling his leg and stuff like that. The Field of Miracles existed, the city of Catch Fools existed.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: And so they get to the Field of Miracles, and Pinocchio buries his coins. And they say okay, well, you have to leave for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes for the tree to grow. And he's like, okay.
AMANDA: Alright Pinocchio. Again. I know you're maximum three days old. I—I think you know that it takes more than 20 minutes for a tree to grow.
JULIA: Yes. Well, apparently he doesn't know that. So he's like okay and then walks away for 20 minutes. And then when he comes back, he finds that all of his gold has been dug up because of course that was the cat and the foxes intention, to begin with.
AMANDA: You know, I'm disappointed in the teal-haired fairy who I'm just going to start calling Ramona Flowers.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: [30:24] Mary Elizabeth Winstead in Scott Pilgrim is what I'm picturing for this fairy.
JULIA: Great.
AMANDA: I feel like she is a little more worldwise and should know.
JULIA: Yes. Well, she was like, you know what, I can't teach this puppet boy any lessons other than don't lie. And that's just going to be a mess.
AMANDA: Bummer.
JULIA: So of course, a parrot saw all of this go down. Because this is a story about talking animals.
AMANDA: I forgot that Italy is on the Mediterranean, and I was like, the hell's a parrot doing there?
JULIA: You know, there's parents there. It's fun.
AMANDA: Fair.
JULIA: So the parrots saw this happen. He mocks Pinocchio for being so gullible. And a frustrated Pinocchio is like, well, I'll—I'll have justice because this child understands the justice system being three days old or what have you. And so he runs to the courthouse in the city of Catch Fools to report the theft that occurred.
AMANDA: I mean Julia, the first thing he ever did was get his creator arrested for abuse. So I think—
JULIA: That is true.
AMANDA: If he knows anything, it's about you know, using the justice system to get what you want.
JULIA: So he is brought before a gorilla judge, the judge is a gorilla. We love that.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And the gorilla judge is like really sympathetic. He's like, oh, man, that—that sucks guy like it's a real shame that these people stole from you. However, it is super illegal to be foolish here in the city of Catch Fools. So I have to sentence you to four months in prison for foolishness.
AMANDA: Oh, damn. What a reversal. I didn't see that coming.
JULIA: I know right? Imagine how incredibly fucked up it is to be imprisoned—first off imprisoning a child, and then secondly imprisoning a child for foolishness for four months.
AMANDA: Damn. Wow.
JULIA: Luckily Amanda for Pinocchio, he is not forced to serve that time because the emperor of Catch Fools, again for some reason there's an emperor for this one city. After his army wins a battle against their neighbors, he declares that all criminals should be released early in celebration.
AMANDA: Okay, that's one lesson that I do think we should take from the Pinocchio story. More clemency?
JULIA: Yes, you're like, you know what, Foolish next crimes, just let him out. They've learned their lesson after a day, not four months.
AMANDA: Nonviolent crimes. Get him out of there. We don't need to be putting people in prison. Yeah.
JULIA: Exactly. Exactly. So eventually now the Pinocchio has been released from jail. The second person to be imprisoned in the story, by the way.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: He is able to make his way back to the fairies house. But when he gets to the cabin, he finds nothing but a gravestone.
AMANDA: Noooo.
JULIA: And so he's like, oh, shit, the fairy died. What do I do now? Uhhh. Amanda.
AMANDA: They were gonna live there, be a family.
JULIA: They were.
AMANDA: A one ghost, one man and one puppet.
JULIA: I know. [33:08] you do.
AMANDA: My favorite British sitcom from the early 2000s.
JULIA: So luckily for Pinocchio, a pigeon comes across him mourning there and offers to give him a ride. And the pigeon is like oh, we're gonna go by the—the seashore and then I'll take you back to your small town right? And so Pinocchio, when they get to the seashore, he finds that Geppetto is there, and he has built a boat in order to set sail and try to find his son Pinocchio.
AMANDA: Geppetto.
JULIA: Geppetto trying so hard, loves his son so much, even though his son is such a bad kid.
AMANDA: Such a shit. He's always whittling and he's always trying. That's why we love Geppetto.
JULIA: Yes, so Pinocchio sees his father and throws himself into the water to try to swim towards Geppetto and his boat, and just try to help him in general, right? But before he can reach him, Geppetto is swallowed up by as the book calls it, the terrible dogfish.
AMANDA: What?!
JULIA: Just like a giant shark situation going on here, just swallows Geppetto in his boat hole.
AMANDA: Geppetto has a really bad week. That's the subtitle of Pinocchio.
JULIA: He's really having a rough go of it. So Pinocchio is found by a dolphin who tells him of Geppetto's fate and offers to give the puppet a ride to dry land.
AMANDA: Alright, I do appreciate how much like Bedknobs and Broomsticks. Pinocchio takes a hard second-act turn under the sea.
JULIA: So the dolphin very generously takes him back to shore. And he brings him to an island called, the Island of Busy Bees.
AMANDA: Oh, I—I perk up. I'm ready. I'm here.
JULIA: Amanda's like, Ooh, yes, I live a busy bee. We love it. So there Pinocchio finds that much to his shock, he actually has to work for his food, and like do labor in order to get goods and services. Again, this is not a communist manifesto whatsoever. This novel.
AMANDA: No, we all learn about chores at some point in our childhood, it happens.
JULIA: Yes. So Pinocchio offers to carry a jug like a very heavy jug for a woman in return for food and water. Seems like a pretty good, you know, a solid deal. We like it. However, when he gets to the home of the woman, he recognizes her as the fairy but who has grown much older in the short time since he last saw her.
AMANDA: In death?!
JULIA: She's just older now.
AMANDA: Unless she just lied and said that she was dead, but she wasn't, and then she actually did die.
JULIA: Much like your excuse, Amanda. I think she might have just been faking it and she wasn't actually dead.
AMANDA: I—I can see it. I like it.
JULIA: So she tells Pinocchio that now that she is old enough to be his mother, that she will start acting like it, and again, insist that Pinocchio, begin attending school. Again, school is a big theme and we'll talk a little bit about that at the end of the episode, but like Carlo really had some opinions about education, and the education process. She also like kinda hints to him like doesn't outright say it, but hints to him that like, hey, if you do well in school, and you're a good boy for a whole year, maybe you'll be able to become a real boy.
AMANDA: Oh, here's where it gets dangled. Okay.
JULIA: Hear hear tha—that's the carrot now, it's been dangled. Amanda, let me tell you carrot does not get grabbed immediately.
AMANDA: We still have another 10-12 chapters.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. So Pinocchio starts school and he tries very hard to be good. He even becomes the top of his class, but that also makes his fellow schoolboys a little bit jealous of him.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: You know how like some—someone succeeds and now everyone's like, oh, fucking nerd room probably [36:36] up to the teacher.
AMANDA: Julia, I sure do.
JULIA: Yeah, I know you [36:40]. I know you do. So the boys having heard what happened to Pinocchio's father, again remember swallowed by giant fish. Convinced him to ditch school because they say that they saw a sea monster at the beach.
AMANDA: Sure. It ate Pinocchio's dad.
JULIA: Yeah. Extremely cruel. Extremely cruel to be like, hey, man, I think the sea monster they ate your dad's at the beach, you want to go?
AMANDA: Brutal.
JULIA: Pinocchio arrives, it becomes clear that these schoolboys are lying to him. And they all get into like a big scrap, like a big fight. Boy fight.
AMANDA: Oh, non-experience I had, but one that I sure do enjoy seeing replicated on television.
JULIA: Yeah. There's a lot of like shoving and [36:16] so you know.
AMANDA: Yeah, I remember Julia when we were taught Lord of the Flies in school, and our male teachers were like, yes, [37:22] and we were like, I don't get it.
JULIA: I think— if you say so I'm not a boy. So I don't know. So Pinocchio is accused of hurting one of the boys and fearing that he will get in trouble, he flees.
AMANDA: He knows about prison, Julia. He's three days old. He knows about prison.
JULIA: He has already been imprisoned.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: At this point, he's like less than a year old, but still a couple months old. So he's like, I know I did my time.
AMANDA: True. True.
JULIA: Eventually, Pinocchio, there's—there's a whole like side plot here, where he like saves a dog. That was the part where I talked about the Pinocchio adopts a dog. I kind of skipped it because there wasn't a lot going on with it. But eventually, Pinocchio runs into a snail that knows and works for the fairy. And the snail is able to convince Pinocchio to return to her, and she promises him like okay, I'm gonna give you another chance to be good. I know you could do this, focus up kid. He again, like attend school. He succeeds there. He's doing great. He's being a good boy, Amanda.
AMANDA: Pinocchio, what—what a turnaround.
JULIA: So about a year passes after some time, and the fairy promises Pinocchio that he'll become a boy the next day. And he—she tells Pinocchio, hey, like, go out into town. Invite your friends from school. We can throw a party celebrating the fact that you're going to become a real boy.
AMANDA: I'm worried.
JULIA: Yes, you should be concerned. But I also really like this idea that it's almost like a bar mitzvah, but for Pinocchio.
AMANDA: I know, but bar mitzvah was yeah, I usually don't end up somebody like going to prison or, or dying.
JULIA: Yes, well, not this time. So he runs off. He's determined to tell all his friends like hey, I'm going to be a real boy tomorrow come to my party. However, he becomes a bit sidetracked when he runs into his good friend, Candle Wick.
AMANDA: Oh, Candle Wick.
JULIA: Candle wicks, his best friend, and Candle Wick tells Pinocchio about a place called Toy Land. Amanda in Toyland, there's never any work and everyone instead just gets to play all day.
AMANDA: Oh Julia, it's the final test and his hero's journey.
JULIA: Well, Pinocchio is like, oh, for real? Sounds great. We should go.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yep.
JULIA: Yeah and then they do. They just fuck off for like five months, and they play in Toy Land for five months.
AMANDA: I mean, sounds fun.
JULIA: Yeah, so they're having a grand old time while they're there. However, after five months in Toyland, the two boys wake up with donkey ears.
AMANDA: Okay, surprising.
JULIA: So they are like, woah, why do we have donkey ears and a marmot? You know, like the little—the little [39:43] guy.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Looks at them, and he's like, well, the problem is, you've come down with Donkey fever. Donkey fever is a phenomenon where when boys who do nothing but play and don't attend their studies, they become donkeys.
AMANDA: Oh, Okay. Nothing I've ever heard of, but sure.
JULIA: Shouldn't we all be familiar with Donkey fever at this point, Amanda? I mean, we've learned so much about diseases over the past couple of years.
AMANDA: Fair. That's fair.
JULIA: So Pinocchio and Candlewick just like fully become donkeys and Pinocchio in Donkey form is sold to a circus.
AMANDA: Sure, okay.
JULIA: I bet the people of Toyland have a real like, I think and I kind of remember this from the movie. They have a real like boy to donkey sale pipeline that was happening there. It was like, oh, well, that's how we make our money. We sell boys that turned into donkeys to circuses and stuff.
AMANDA: Yeah, circuses really are the big bad of so many Disney movies. I feel like behind Dumbo, Pinocchio there is like, you know, selling children and or animals, and or their parents to the circus.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. Circuses, they're the bad guy. At the Circus, Pinocchio in Donkey form is taught to do tricks and perform there. But when he thinks he sees the fairy in the crowd of one of the performances at the circus, he falls and he injured himself while he's doing a trick. Amanda, it gets worse somehow, somehow it gets worse.
AMANDA: Alright, I'm just gonna—I'm just gonna sip my cocktail and wait.
JULIA: Yeah, so the ringmaster seeing that he cannot perform, sells Pinocchio to someone who is like, Okay, I'm gonna kill this donkey and turn it into a drum.
AMANDA: [sighs]
JULIA: Yeah, so the man tosses Pinocchio in Donkey form into the sea. And when he goes back to collect the body of the donkey, he instead finds a living doll, which has been transformed once again into Pinocchio. And he's like, well, hey, guy, where's my donkey? And Pinocchio is like, well, sir, who tried to murder me, let me tell you the tale. While I was in the water, the fish ate all the donkey skin off of me, which transformed me back into a puppet.
AMANDA: Clearly.
JULIA: And the guy's like, okay, well, I got really just fucked in this whole situation. Well I don't—I don't want to talk in puppet boy. I wanted skin from a donkey to make a drum and Pinnochio's like, I gotta go and just like takes off.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: Amanda just like fully, like sprints and then dives into the sea after having this conversation with this man that tried to kill him.
AMANDA: So relatable Pinnochio. I didn't expect to really relate to Pinocchio at some moments, but I am.
JULIA: Yeah, as he—as he's becoming a little bit wiser. We're like, okay, Pinocchio, I see you. I see what's happening here.
AMANDA: Making some good choices, yeah.
JULIA: So Amanda, he takes off into the sea. And of course, while he's swimming, he too was swallowed up by the terrible dogfish.
AMANDA: Oh, no, he's with his dad.
JULIA: Yes. So inside the dogfish, Pinocchio is shocked to find that Geppetto is alive and well in this stomach of a fish. Naturally, they managed to escape the stomach of the dogfish with the help of a tuna, which I think in some translations, they just nicknamed the tuna, Toony. And I'm like hmm, I love that.
AMANDA: Love him. Love him.
JULIA: So now free, Geppetto and Pinocchio set out to find a place for them to live. Because again, it's been several months since they were home. Geppetto probably doesn't have a house anymore. Certainly like probably sold it in order to try to build this boat to find Pinocchio before, so they're just like we need to find a place to live. Me and my dad. My dad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Who has been living inside the stomach of a fish is very sickly. I need to take care of him. Pinocchio's becoming slightly more responsible here.
AMANDA: Yes, he is.
JULIA: So eventually, they come across our good friends, the Fox and the cat again.
AMANDA: Wow, I can't believe these guys are still hanging out.
JULIA: I know. Well, at this point, Amanda, they are now impoverished. They plead for food and money from Pinocchio and Geppetto. But Pinocchio at this point has learned his lesson.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And he rebuffs the two and they continue on through the woods.
AMANDA: Never give to people who need money. Now, these are scammers. I—I.
JULIA: Yeah. No, these are scammers and Pinocchio know that. He was very generous with them before he knew they were scammers. And now he knows they're scammers. And he's like, I'm sorry. No.
AMANDA: Folks, I'm a year old now. I know things.
JULIA: I know things now. I have a whole year of hard labor and being a donkey, and being in prison under my belt. I know what's good. So eventually they arrive at a small house and when they let themselves in after knocking and a voice saying guests come in, they discover that it is the home of, Amanda, can you guess who this is the home of?
AMANDA: It's not the fairies, is it?
JULIA: It's the talking cricket, Amanda.
AMANDA: Jiminy, still kicking around.
JULIA: I read this part. And the story doesn't specify if this is the ghost of the talking cricket. Or if he's alive again. They're just like, it's the talking cricket again. And you're just like, okay, fine. Great.
AMANDA: Sure. Yeah, no, I'm 34 chapters in Julia. I'm—I'm not really questioning the premise.
JULIA: Exactly. Exactly. So Pinocchio is like my guide, and the cricket is like, don't my guide me, you kill me with a hammer, you didn't listen to my advice. We are not friends. And he's like, okay, you know what, that's right. My bad. You have a very nice house here. How did you get this talking cricket?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And he's like, my house was given to me by a goat with turquoise hair. And Pinnochio's like, I'm sorry what?
AMANDA: Excuse me?
JULIA: Excuse me. What happened to the goat? And the cricket is like, yeah, the goat left yesterday because she was really upset, and she was like, oh, Pinocchio got swallowed by a fish. And Pinocchio is like, oh snap. Well, maybe she'll come back. Can we stay with you? And the cricket like, yeah, sure. Basically, Pinocchio is like, but this time cricket, I want to be like responsible. I want to support myself and my father and pay for our lodging. So—
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: —he asks the cricket. Hey, where can I get a job? Again, I just—I love it. So the cricket direct—again, this is a year-old puppet boy. It's great. So the cricket directs him to his neighbor who is a farmer. And the farmer gives him a job, just kind of like doing a lot of like manual labor and stuff like that. And the farmers like, well, it's a good thing you're here, because, you know, I had this donkey, but the donkeys dying now so he can't do all the physical labor on the farm. Pinnochio was like, well, can I see this dying donkey?
AMANDA: Yeah, if it's blue, it's my friend. If it's dying and not blue. I know where the skin should go.
JULIA: So he goes and he sees the dying donkey. And the dying donkey looks at him. He's like, I know this donkey. And the dying donkey is like, ma—my name is Candle Wick. And Pinnochio's like, nooo my friend Candle Wick, nooo. Why are you crying over this donkey? He's like, it was my friend.
AMANDA: Julia, I wasn't sure what to expect in our Pinnochio episode, but it wasn't this.
JULIA: So the Candle Wick, the donkey dies. Very sad. But Pinocchio gets a job working in Candle Wicks's place being a laborer for this farmer, right?
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: And Pinocchio continues working for this farmer for months and months, and taking care of Geppetto and spending his money wisely. Until he has saved up 40 pennies.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Big deal back then.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: This is 1883. So like big deal.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So he is like, okay, well, I've saved up all these pennies. Remember how my father you know, sacrificed his only coat for me? I'm going to go and I'm going to buy a coat for me and my father, right?
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And so he goes into town to buy himself this new coat, this new suit. But on the way, he discovers that snail that works for the fairy.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And he's like, oh, snail, long time, no see, have you heard from the fairy? I miss her. And the snail tells Pinocchio that the fairy is in the hospital and is deathly ill.
AMANDA: No. I mean, a this must have happened all the time before the internet, where you're just like, oh, yeah, how's whoever they're like, they've been dead for five years, you know? Or like they're on their deathbed. It's like, oh, no.
JULIA: Oh, no.
AMANDA: That sucks.
JULIA: Well, Pinocchio basically takes his hard-earned saved pennies, these 40 pennies. And he says, oh, basically starts a GoFundMe for this—for this fairy, and it's like, take my 40 pennies snail and bring them to pay for the fairies treatment. And the snail takes the money. And he's like, I want you to help save the fairy. And he's like, Okay, I'll do that. Snail slowly snails away. That's probably not the— the verb that's snail's use, but I like it. I'm gonna keep using it.
AMANDA: Love it. It's evocative.
JULIA: He returns back to the cricket's home without his new coat for him or Geppetto. And when he goes to sleep that night, he dreams of the fairy who in the dream kisses him and says, well done, Pinocchio. This is the exact quote by the way from the novel. Well done Pinocchio, to reward you for your good heart. I will forgive you for all that is past. Boys who ministered tenderly to their parents, and assist them in their misery and infirmities are deserving of great praise and affection, even if they cannot be cited as examples of obedience and good behavior. Try and do better in the future and you will be happy.
AMANDA: Okay. Okay. My bad.
JULIA: Not a bad life lesson to take going into this. So with that Pinocchio awakes, and he sees two things, Amanda. The first thing he sees is his puppet body now lifeless in a chair.
AMANDA: Ahh.
JULIA: And then he looks down and he realized that he's become a real boy.
AMANDA: [49:02] I don't love that your carcass is also there, but, great.
JULIA: It is kind of terrifying you to wake up and then see your lifeless body that the only body you've ever known?
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: Sitting in a chair opposite of you.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yikes. Oh, no. Why am I so limp? So the fairy also, apart from turning Pinocchio into a real boy, has also left him. A new jacket, a new coat, new boots, and a bag of 40 gold coins in exchange for the 40 pennies that he gave her.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Very sweet, very nice. They're set for life now at this point.
AMANDA: Indeed.
JULIA: The story ends with Geppetto is lively, in good humor again, is healthier than he has been. And Pinocchio explains at the end of the book, how ridiculous I was when I was a puppet and how glad I am that I have become a well-behaved little boy. The end.
AMANDA: Julia, I have nothing to add.
JULIA: Truly.
AMANDA: Carlo Collodi [50:03] And I'm just sitting here living in his world. well. But that's all I got.
JULIA: Yeah, he honestly really did a number. I really like—again, this is a very modern story, but it does hit so many fairy tale tropes. You have a fairy who like continuously comes back and grants wishes for good behavior. You have all of these talking animals, you have transformations, you have giant animals, eating people, and people surviving inexplicably in their stomachs. There's so many beautiful fairy tale tropes that were combined here by Carlo Collodi.
AMANDA: Incredible. I had no idea there was so much richness in this text.
JULIA: Like seriously. So I want to touch on two themes that are like kind of important in the narrative of the story, that also are very much informed by the world that Carlo Collodi was living in at the time that he was writing this, okay?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So one of the interesting themes that I thought was brought up in this version that is lacking in the Disney version, is like touching on poverty in the 19th-century Italy, right? So like much of the beginning in the story like the first like I would say five or six chapters are about Pinocchio's basically like food insecurity while Geppetto is in jail, right? So he has a lot of anxiety around being able to find food to feed himself, in translations they describe Pinocchio as hunger as quote, so real it could be cut with a knife.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: And for this like this is a—again this is a wooden boy who we see like doesn't have to breathe the air and stuff like that, but does have to eat. Because while breathing air does not cost any money, which knock on wood, but that is always true in the future as well.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Food cost people money, like the idea that you needed food in order to survive and that food costs money in order to survive, is like an extremely fucked up thing that a lot of people, especially in Collodi's 19th century Italy, were facing at the time.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: In the story like when Geppetto returns from prison. He gives Pinocchio three pairs which we learned Geppetto had intended for his own breakfast, but gives them to the puppet again instead. Again, this like sign of parents sacrificing for their children in order for that generation to survive, like Pinocchio, at first he demands that Geppetto peels all of the pears for him. It like—like a child demanding crust be cut off their sandwich.
AMANDA: Yes, yes.
JULIA: But in the end is so hungry, that he ends up eating both the peels as well as the cores of the pears. And learns the lesson that we mustn't be too finicky or dainty in our eating.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: [52:37] it's a good lesson to teach kids, like the kind of waste not want not. I know we grew up with the like, you know, there's starving children across the world who would love to have this meal kind of ingrained into us, right?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So like this food insecurity is a theme that recurs throughout the story, like Pinocchio is almost killed several times in order to secure food for other people either like by being burned to cook the food, or almost being eaten himself in several instances.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And there's also something to be said that like Geppetto, and eventually Pinocchio's fate is at one point to be swallowed whole by a giant fish and like be sustenance for something that is huge and monstrous, like because even giant sea monsters need to eat.
AMANDA: Very true.
JULIA: Another theme that I really like about this one and somewhat ties into that, is clearly Collodi had a strong opinion about education and like quote, unquote “bettering yourself”
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: Collodi turns Pinocchio and Candlewick into donkeys with a purpose, right? So in Italy, calling someone a donkey referred to not only children that didn't apply themselves to school but also physical laborers were also referred to as donkeys. Because they did the work that “a donkey could do” quote unquote.
AMANDA: Right, like skilled and unskilled labor.
JULIA: Right. And while I disagree with Collodi in that like, like unskilled labor even exists, because all jobs require a certain level of skill. It is really interesting that he's trying to get across basically like if you act like a donkey as a student, and you don't apply yourself you'll end up a donkey or a laborer for the rest of your life. Which is a theme that he really pushes in this, especially the latter half when Pinocchio discovers that that's literally the fate that Candlewick ended up experiencing, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But it's interesting because Collodi lived in a time where he had just seen the unification of Italy into a single nation that happened in the like mid-1800s. At that point, only 25% of Italians could read and write, right? But with the unification of Italy and it turning into a country when Collodi was writing Pinocchio, free compulsory schooling had just been mandated throughout the country.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: And that percentage rose to 40%. So Collodi is there kind of recognizing that there is this disparity between those who were educated and like came from money or a place where they didn't have food insecurity? And those who were being educated while hungry.
AMANDA: Very true.
JULIA: Like he even wrote an open letter called Bread and Books, where he argued basically like, yes, education should be universal and free, but that means nothing if we don't also have universal food and shelter for all Italians.
AMANDA: Yeah, a thing that is not true in the US today. You cannot learn when you are hungry.
JULIA: Absolutely. And like the fact that there are, you know, people that argue against free school lunches for people is ridiculous. Like the fact that a child can be in debt to their school because they need lunch is absolutely preposterous.
AMANDA: It is.
JULIA: Collodi really did believe that an education could guarantee a better life so long as people's basic needs were met, which I obviously—we definitely agree with here on the podcast.
AMANDA: Surprisingly progressive.
JULIA: Yeah. So there is so much more that we can say about Pinocchio. But because this is a really beefy story, I'm gonna recommend a couple of essays and insights on the tale to our conspirators for them to check out. So I would recommend the real story of Pinocchio Tells No Lies, which is an essay from Smithsonian Magazine. Bad Things Happen to Bad Children from Slate. Sonorous Mitezza: A Political Voice on Collodi's The Adventures of Pinocchio by Susanna Ferlito. And The Tribulations of Pinocchio: How social change can record good story by Richard Wonderlic. And of course, you can read the original The Adventures of Pinocchio online because it is in the public domain and it is freely available.
AMANDA: I truly had no idea there were so many depths to the story. Julia, thank you.
JULIA: I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Amanda. And conspirators remember when you meet a turquoise hair Ramona Flowers fairy in the woods, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
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AMANDA: Bye!