Episode 316: The Evil Eye
/You’ve probably heard about the evil eye; there are so many traditions on what it does and how to protect yourself from it! We dive into evil eye traditions around the world, and talk death rays, airplanes, and mummy tattoos.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of migraines, colonization, bodily harm, death, violence, pseudoscience, illness, misogyny, sexual acts, child endangerment, fertility, child birth, and miscarriage.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Highly Suspicious and Unfairly Cute by Talia Hibbert
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Pale Blue Pod: an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe but want to be its friend! New episodes every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts!
Sponsors
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
- Calm is the #1 app to help you reduce your anxiety and stress and help you sleep better. Get 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com/spirits.
- Shaker & Spoon is a subscription cocktail service that helps you learn how to make hand-crafted cocktails right at home. Get $20 off your first box at shakerandspoon.com/cool
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learned about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 316: The Evil Eye.
JULIA: Yeah, Amanda. So I'm gonna start us off with a story, right?
AMANDA: Ooh, yes, please.
JULIA: So a couple of months ago, I was having a lot of migraines, kind of seemingly out of nowhere unrelated, but also somewhat relatedly. I'd recently changed my hair and had been getting a lot of compliments just from random people. This is not to brag. I promise this at some point. It's not just me being like my hair is so cool, oh, my God. So when I complained about how bad the migraines had been lately, both Jake and my mother-in-law were both like, oh, it's probably the malocchio. And I was like, excuse me, the what? So the way that they explained it was when someone gets a lot of compliments, or praise, the person doing the complimenting can either accidentally or on purpose, cast the evil eye on the person that they're complimenting. Now, I'd had like kind of a vague understanding of what the evil eye was at that point. But it did kind of kind of pique my interest a little bit, especially since when I started wearing the little evil eye pin that I had on my jacket, the migraine kind of just became less frequent. That gauged my interest. And I knew like it wasn't just the Italians who believed in the evil eye. So as I do, I started digging into the history and the different traditions surrounding the evil eye. But first, Amanda, I have to ask, what do you know about the evil eye?
AMANDA: I came across the evil eye lots growing up, there are a lot of people in our hometown, whether they were Greek, Italian, Jewish, Spanish, who had evil eye, you know, keychains, decorations, and other, you know, just like part of their lives in some ways. And I came across it more recently to when, as part of my conversion to Judaism. One of our homework assignments late in our class was to wear some kind of Jewish paraphernalia as part of the experience of like being perceived as Jewish out in the world, lots of ups and downs to that experience. And also for people converting, it was a really helpful way to sort of deal with the feelings of, you know, impostor ship, or whatever that come with wearing a symbol that up until very recently hasn't really been mine to wear. And so in researching what symbol I was going to wear, the Star of David is like a advanced level Jewish symbol to wear because it draws a lot of attention, even for people very used to wearing Jewish symbols. So I was kind of torn between an evil eye or a hamsa. Like that hand with the eye in the middle. And in Jewish tradition, at least two thumbs. And so I ended up going with a hamsa set of earrings. But the evil eye was also a symbol that some of my classmates chose to wear. And so it is really interesting. The only like folkloric things I really know are about, you know, warding off evil or curse or attention of some kind. But other than that, I am kind of a blank slate. So I'm excited to learn.
JULIA: Excellent. Ooh, Yay, I'm so excited. I also love those earrings that you have. So—
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: I'm so glad that we get to talk about this. So to start us off with a fun fact. And to give you an idea of how widespread the idea of the evil eye is, a study done by the American ethnologist in 1982, found that at the time, around 40% of the world's population had some sort of belief in the evil eye. Now, I'm not sure if there are more recent studies or numbers, but that's like a pretty high amount of that 40% of the world's population. The focus of that belief can be found in areas around the Mediterranean, in West Asia, the Middle East, Latin, and Central America, and South Eastern Europe. The like wide-ranging stuff and when you factor in like diasporas and whatnot, especially, you know, the spreading of Europeans and whatnot to America, It's—it's a widespread tradition and a widespread belief, which I think is really cool. And the origins of the Evil Eye seem to date back at least 5000 years, which again, is so freaking cool that this idea has persisted for as long as it has. The oldest reference to the evil eye was found in the ruins of the city of Ugarit, which was an ancient port city found in Syria. It collapsed and was destroyed during the late bronze age around 1250 BCE. Those scholars believed that the evil eye tradition predates the collapse of the city itself. So it goes way back, way, way back.
AMANDA: I love that. Incredible.
JULIA: So incredibly important to the discussion of the evil eye is of course the way that people would protect themselves from the evil eye, right? unsurprising to anyone familiar with evil eye traditions, talismans through various cultures are extremely important for warding it off. Very quickly, I want to point out a fun fact that I found, which is that the Greek word for these talismans that the ancient Greeks used, which is apotropaic, means protective or literally turns away, but it's also the Greek word for prophylactic, which is very fun and I love.
AMANDA: That is very fun. I mean, both things deter things.
JULIA: That is true. One is deterring babies and STIs, and the other one is evil eye stuff.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: With that kind of out of the way. Perhaps the most common or most recognized type of that protection is the Nazar. The word is Arabic in origin, it means sight or attention. And it refers to a talisman that is either a disc, a ball, or a bead that is made up of these concentric blue and white circles that resemble an eye. Amanda, do you want to guess as to why blue is the color that they typically use for the Nazar?
AMANDA: Oh, against the red of demons and like malodorous uh, I don't know forces?
JULIA: I really liked that. That's super fascinating. And color like does kind of come into play a lot in evil eye traditions. Blue is often used one because like, there was a certain pigment that was used in traditional glassblowing during that time period.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: But also the idea that blue-eyed people in a lot of different cultures were more likely to spread the evil eye.
AMANDA: Because they're like piercing or the light transmutes more?
JULIA: I guess so. I—will talk a little bit more about the like, quote-unquote, “science” behind a lot of these traditions. So as I mentioned before the word Nazar comes from Turkey, but the Nazar is a common talisman found throughout the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and the Eastern Mediterranean. The logic behind the eye-shaped amulet is interestingly used alongside the phrase, an eye for an eye, not in the like code of Hammurabi way, but in the idea that only an eye can be used to protect the recipient from the evil eye gaze.
AMANDA: That makes sense.
JULIA: Yeah, of course. And it's also very like early medicine, the idea of like a little bit of the poison can help counteract the disease or something to that effect. So it totally makes sense that an eye would counteract an evil eye.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Nazar's are also sometimes crafted not just as an amulet, but also as an eye beat. Again, also historically from Turkey, it coincides with the development of glassmaking in that region, which I think is really cool. And I love the history of craft. So this is always fun for me.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: And the glassmaking in that region can be dated back to as early as the 1500 species. Which, again, like every time I dig into the history of this, I get so excited, because I'm like, it's so far back. It's so far back.
AMANDA: It's so far back. And people have been trying to understand why bad things happen, and how to stop that forever.
JULIA: Absolutely. 100%. The spread of these beads throughout the ancient world is also very cool because we can trace how they like spread across like from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Rome, you can find the different, like archaeological sites that have these glass beads extremely cool. Commonly, they were also found on boats and on home. So the idea that the staring eyes could bend the malicious gaze back on the caster, which would mean they could ward away the bad luck and the energy away from places and vessels.
AMANDA: Very cool. I'm sure this is a tough topic to research because the answer is like means most things to many people. But I—I always love when we find a symbol that serves a real utility for most people. And there's lots of stuff in common, which I think is very cool.
JULIA: Absolutely. I mean, that's really why I like this kind of stuff. And uh—we'll talk about it at the end. But the idea that not even like pervasive isn't the right word for it. It's just this idea, again, of spirits as a whole is like, we all want answers to this story. So we keep telling the same stories, even if we're not interacting with each other at all. Also, I think it's really interesting that we can talk about while not directly related to evil eye amulets as we understand them to this day. I think it's worth talking about the Egyptian Eye of Horus.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: Because that's another one that I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with, or at least have seen in various pop culture and whatnot. So the origins of the Eye of Horus as a symbol of protection and good health come from the Egyptian mythology conflict between the god Horus and the gods Set. So in the story, Set was said to have torn out or else destroyed Horus's either eye or eyes, but these eyes were then returned to Horus by the gods Thoth. Horus then gave this healed and returned eye to his father Osiris who had also been killed by Set as you might remember. And the power of Horus's eyes gave Osiris the power that he needed to sustain himself in the afterlife. So extremely important to like really the kind of creation myth and the afterlife myth of Egyptian mythology, as well as became an extremely powerful symbol.
AMANDA: Exactly. And the eye, the—the taking away of the eye is kind of the origin of the evil or the harm inflicted on Horus. But then the eye itself is also a healing symbol and—and you know, it can be kind of paid forward to give new power.
JULIA: Exactly. And as—as you just mentioned, Amanda, ancient Egyptian medicine would incorporate the Eye of Horus in medical treatments as well as healing rituals because they were evoking this story in which Thoth healed the eyes of Horus. It's really, really cool. And of course, the Eye of Horus, also known as the Wadjet eye, was made into a protective amulet which first began to appear around the late Old Kingdom and was produced until at least the time of the Romans.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: It was like super important to the Egyptians they—a lot of Egyptians during the mummification process would be buried with an eye of Horus amulet. At first, it would just be placed on the chest of the mummy, but then later practices it would be laid over the incision in the body where the internal organs were removed for the mummification process. Again—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —kind of evoking this healing that was really, really important to them.
AMANDA: Make total sense and especially that bridge to the afterlife.
JULIA: Of course, because Horus and Osiris were connected due to Horus's gift of the Eye of Horus to Osiris, you're nailing it as always.
AMANDA: Good symbol Ancient Egyptians.
JULIA: Good symbol Ancient Egypt, we'd love it, we'd love to see it.
AMANDA: I know they really need my approval, but they have it.
JULIA: So of course, while there is that connection to the afterlife, and Osiris and Horus, these weren't just used in the mummification process. It could be worn as an amulet during life as well. Of course, it was painted again on the bowels of boats to protect them. Sometimes even incorporate into tattoos which we've seen on the bodies of mummies that we have discovered. Amulets were also sometimes made of like ceramic, they were made of glass, they were made of gold, even precious stones. I know lapis lazuli was a very common one to use for the Eye of Horus. And even I think this is really cool. Temporary amulets could be made for life-threatening situations, such as something like an illness or during childbirth. And they were just like simply either drawn on papyrus, or they were drawn on linen, in the instance where a like, quote-unquote, “formal amulet” was not available.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: Which I think it's just, it's— it's awesome. I think it's really cool, where it's like, no one has a an eye of Horus on them, okay, just draw it on that piece of paper, and we're good to go.
AMANDA: Exactly. And that adaptability reminds me a lot of Judaism. Is one of the things I love most about it. And in talking and reading a little bit about the evil eye in Judaism, it is not just amulets that can help protect us which are totally in that Turkish style of the Nazar. But also people use things like herbs and nails and horseshoes and gold. In some cases, they wore like coral necklaces, because the color red was seen as being like anti-evil. Again, like so much of culture and so much of Judaism specifically, it's about the principle of the thing and adapting to the stuff you have around you. Because the stuff that we used to have is not the stuff that we have now.
JULIA: Yeah. And in saying that, Amanda, I—I totally recognize a couple of other traditions that use similar things. So again, the crossover is so important, and I'm not sure if this is like a what the chicken in the egg situation here is because I know that like adaptability is an extremely important part of Judaism. So I'm not sure if like they got the coral from somewhere else, or they were collecting coral while living in this particular place. But I was like, oh, coral, that's one that I recognize.
AMANDA: Yeah, and I mean, you know, like lots of diasporic cultures, you know, you pick up and start to kind of live with traditions of places that you live in. So like there are lots of Jews in Turkey. And that's why you know, the evil eye amulets also make sense and other places that use you know, choral iron, horseshoes, herbs, were often a dual citizen kind of people.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Maybe not full legal citizens, but living among two cultures at the same time.
JULIA: So I know that the Hamsa is very common as a symbolism, the hand symbolism I've seen it in Judaism and also in Islam. Where does that come from?
AMANDA: It's a really fascinating symbol and comes probably to Judaism, from Islam, from Sephardic Jews who live you know, in areas with lots of Muslims. Where in Islam this comes from references to Fatima, who is Muhammad's daughter, but also for lots of Jews reminds us of Miriam who's Moses's sister. And so it really is a symbol that means lots of things, lots of people but can comes with a lot of like protection for mothers in particular. In Islam, some scholars have talked about that, you know, the five fingers of the hand is a, you know, the number five can help defend against the evil eye in certain traditions, but also the five pillars of Islam and the five fingers, you know, it kind of has a lot of—a lot of stuff in common and the exact like styles of the symbol vary a ton based on if it's coming from, you know, Morocco, Spain, like Egypt kind of other places where Jews and Muslims are. But yeah, it's—it's like lots of things like the evil eye I think. A symbol that means a lot to lots of people. And I think it's very cool. I think the—the the history of these things and how they got to where they are, don't dilute it but make it richer with like another kind of meaning.
JULIA: Absolutely. And I think that is such a great thing to keep in mind. As we kind of go through the different traditions. You're going to see a lot of stuff that is repeated throughout the various traditions and some stuff is unique to different cultures. And I think that's something that's worth exploring being like, where did this come from? How did this spread? And so again, keeping that in mind again, I really do think that and I love that—that has such a Jewish connection as well.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: So I'm gonna go into a little bit more about the various traditions and stuff of the evil eye but first, how about we go and grab a refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome, folks to the refill. This is of course where we thank our new patrons, tell you what's going on at Multitude, recommend something fun, and also read our ads because those things help pay the bills. So welcome, first and foremost to Davin and Rhys our newest patrons over at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, where Julia has just dropped by the way her quarterly tarot vibe check. Tarot spread that she did specifically for our patrons at I think the $16 level and above. Where we give you a vibe a check about what to expect from the coming season. They're posted on every equinox and solstice, that's one of my favorite traditions to check in and hear her soothing voice describe all of the great stuff and you know things to look out for the coming in the months ahead. So check it out go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And thank you too to our supporting producer-level patrons AUhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Cicuta Maculata, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, Spooky Lore, and Zazi. Of course, there are two of those legend-level patrons who get BT dubs, and custom Tarot spreads sent to them in addition to the tarot vibe check. Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Ginger Spurs Boi, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. I absolutely inhaled a new book from one of my very favorite authors, Talia Hibbert. Remember she's the one responsible for the Brown sister's trilogy, Chloe Brown, and all of her lovely sisters, Eve Brown. I forget the third one's name sorry. But she is out with her first YA romcom, which I absolutely loved. I kind of didn't realize it was YA until partway through. But Talia Hibbert's writing truly just feels cozy, almost isn't even complex enough to describe it. It's like all of the characters have ambitions and hopes and dreams and problems. And you know, they're challenging themselves to figure out what's going on in their lives and get a little better. It's always as much about family and friendship, as it is about love and just becoming the person you want to be. And there is nothing I love more than reading a Talia Hibbert book when I need like a bracing conversation, and then a big hug from my friend. So her newest book is called Highly Suspicious and Unfairly Cute. It comes out next week as you're listening to this. So you can get a link to preorder it now at Spirits podcast.com/books. It was also a very exciting end to the year over here at Multitude offices, because Pale Blue Pod, our newest member show was in the frickin New Yorker. Not a big deal. No, it was a huge deal. All of us absolutely stoked about it. And we're having our parents who subscribe to The New Yorker either like grab it for us or go to newsstands because we're so freakin proud of them. Pale Blue Pod is of course an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe but want to be its friend. Astrophysicist and of course friend of the show Dr. Moiya McTier, and comedian Corinne Caputo, who you may or may not be hearing on an upcoming episode of Spirits, you will, she's great, she's really funny. I love her. Demystify space, one topic at a time with open eyes, open arms, and open mouths from so much laughing and also jaw-dropping. A lot of the reaction to the show so far has been like oh my god, I was really kind of scared/ overwhelmed by space. And now I really want to know more. This feels like a safe space. No pun intended to explore what it is that makes up the universe with absolutely no judgment about stuff that confuses you or freaks you out. So seriously, it's my favorite podcast that I'm listening to right now. It comes out every Monday weekly. That's right. Wherever you get your podcasts look up Pale Blue Pod and get on that bandwagon. It's really, really good. Thank you to our first sponsor this week Calm. This is an app that can help if you are feeling restless at night or just feeling like you want to take a little more time for you, whether you know you wake up and you've been anxious. If you are kind of like tuning out this ad or this podcast or whatever you're doing right now, and you just want to like press pause, not on the podcast keep listening to me, but on your life, you know on your—on your anxiety on whatever is on your mind right now. Take a deep breath and center yourself. That is what Calm really helps with. It's an app to help you stress less, sleep more and live a happier life. They have guided meditations, sleep stories, relaxing music, and daily movement sessions which I have been working on. As I'm all cozy and cooped up for the winter. I want to make sure that I stay stretched and just kind of chicken with my body from time to time. And for listeners of the show, Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/spirits. Go to CALM.com/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com/spirits. Guys, I had a dilemma recently where my dad has a girlfriend who I think is fabulous. And I was getting her a Christmas present for the first time and I'm like, oh God, I don't want to mess this up. Like what do I get? What did you get the you know, the girlfriend or boyfriend of a parent, like it is a thing I've never faced before. And so I thought you know what, you know what she would really like, my dad's girlfriend is like Lorelai Gilmore in the best possible way. And so I got her a Shaker and Spoon subscription. These are our longtime friends, one of the longest sponsors and partners of the show. And they make subscription cocktail boxes. They send you all the ingredients and teach you all the skills you need and makes a bar quality cocktails from recipes designed by award-winning mixologists. All while exposing you to new flavors, new techniques, new combinations, and exposing a real range of what each spirit can do. It's between 50 and $59 per month, you can skip or cancel anytime or just gift a subscription or a single box to somebody you care about. And what they do is again, send you all the stuff you need, you pick up one bottle of that month's spirit, and then all of the cocktails are designed to use up exactly that bottle. So no more dusty things on the shelf, when you buy like Creme de Menthe for a grasshopper, and you're like I'm never gonna use this again, no, Shaker and Spoon makes you use it all up and learn new stuff as you go. So you can go to shakerandspoon.com and use the code Cool to get 20 bucks off your first box. That shakerandspoon.com and use the code Cool. And finally, the show is sponsored by BetterHelp. If there is a time where you wish that your life came with a user manual, with some instructions or some guidance about how the hell we're supposed to do this and get through life and figure out what we're doing and make ourselves better and set boundaries, and like live in the world. It's really challenging, and we sometimes need support to do that. And I know I have been taking advantage of therapy since I was in college. But you know what, it was a lot easier to access in college than it is as an adult. The College Health Center had appointments you could just go to, it was right nearby. They always had a counselor available to take appointments. And I didn't realize how convenient that was. Because as an adult, finding somebody near me who takes my insurance, who I vibe with, who is accepting new patients is an absolute horror show, especially when you're already in a spot where you're feeling like you need extra support. It's just a huge hassle on top of it all. And so when I was looking for a new therapist a few years ago, I really appreciated that BetterHelp was a way for me to talk to somebody right away. If I didn't click with them, I was able to switch therapists without even you know, having a big conversation about it like breaking up with your therapist, you can just click a button and switch. It's very, very convenient and affordable. Which is why I was able to do it when I couldn't afford an in-person therapist. As the world's largest therapy service, BetterHelp has matched 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100% online, plus it's affordable. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with the therapist. If things aren't clicking, you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler. No waiting rooms, no traffic, no endless searching for the right therapist. Learn more and save 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's BetterH E L P.com/spirits. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: So Amanda for this cocktail, I actually found a New Zealand bar that does their version of a sapphire martini, but it is also an evil eye.
AMANDA: It's so beautiful.
JULIA: It is gorgeous. So the key to this, of course, is going to be blue curacao. It's also going to include gin and some lemon juice, a little bit of sugar and then you take a little bit of the blue on the top to create the smaller blue eye. It'll foam up really nice to create the white background, and then a little bit more of the blue. And then you just drop a little coffee bean in the middle and it looks like a Nazar.
AMANDA: Julia, It's so cute. I can't get over it. It's so beautiful.
JULIA: I have to make these next time you are here, so we'll—we'll have to do that.
AMANDA: So pretty.
JULIA: Amanda, unsurprisingly I am going to talk about classic Greeks, naturally.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: They were all very prolific in their writings about the evil eye. Hestia, Plato, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder just to name a few, all wrote about the evil eye in their works. Plutarch, for example, in his symposium tried to like even scientifically explain how the evil eye worked. And again, this is ancient Greek science. So this is going to be maybe not accurate to science we have today.
AMANDA: They are guessing their very best.
JULIA: Plutarch believed that eyes were the source of quote-unquote “deadly rays” that sprung up like poisoned darts from the inner recesses of a person possessing the evil eye. Deadly rays, Amanda.
AMANDA: I hate when my bad thoughts lead to deadly rays.
JULIA: Plutarch was really ahead of his time and the idea that you could have death ray vision, and I—I appreciate that for him.
AMANDA: It's very true. Current X-Men writers should look more to ancient folklore for their inspiration.
JULIA: Truly. We all want Cyclops to give the evil eye rather than optic beams.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Pliny the Elder, our good friend who's wrong about everything, wrote about people that had quote, the power of fascination with the eyes and can even kill those on whom they fixed their gaze.
AMANDA: I mean, when you don't know about germ theory, I get it. Yeah, someone gives you a nasty look in the market and later you die of an infection from like, I don't know trimming your toes four months ago.
JULIA: Yeah, of course. So it was the guy in the—it was definitely the guy in the market who also coughed on you—
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: —but that's beside the point.
AMANDA: We all cautiously, we're all coughing constantly it's—it's BC, yeah.
JULIA: Oral constantly coughing. Also, Heliodorus of Emesa wrote, quote when anyone looks at what is excellent with an envious eye, he fills the surrounding atmosphere with a pernicious quality and transmits his own invented exhalations into whatever is nearest to him. Honestly, that's the closest to germ theory I think the Greeks are gonna get.
AMANDA: Yeah. I know. It's not—that's not 100% wrong.
JULIA: Yeah, no, it's not totally wrong. It's like this guy is giving off bad vibes, and he is polluting the area around him. And now everyone around him is sick.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: Yeah. And he's probably just miserable, because he's also sick, and he's infecting everyone around him.
AMANDA: I hate it.
JULIA: The Greeks and Romans also believed that the evil eye could affect not only humans but animals and livestock as well. In the poetry of Virgil, a shepherd complains about the poor health of his sheep asking what eye is it that has fascinated my tender lambs?
AMANDA: Oh, no, not the tender lambs. Poor lambs, oh no.
JULIA: I really liked this. And there's a—there's a later one in Brazil that we'll talk about later on in this episode, but it's all about like, oh, my garden was doing really well. And then my neighbor, like kind of complimented it too much. And now it's like, all my established plants are dying. And I'm like, no, that's the worst. It's Amanda's worst nightmare.
AMANDA: It is. I want my neighbors to like my garden. I don't want the envy to kill the plants.
JULIA: Exactly. Well, there are ways of avoiding that. We'll talk about it later.
AMANDA: Oh. Alright. Alright. I'll be taking notes.
JULIA: Yes. So the Greeks believed that in order to discourage the evil eye, there were various things that one could do. At one point, a grasshopper talisman was placed in the Acropolis of Athens as protection from the evil eye for example.
AMANDA: Cute.
JULIA: The Greeks also believed that dressing boys and girls' clothing could help avert the evil eye, which I think is interesting and also reminds me of the fact that like, we used to dress Victorian boy children up in girls' clothing, I'm like, I don't remember culturally why that is. But in some minds, I'm connecting those two dots. I don't know if they actually connect or not. But in my mind, I'm connecting them.
AMANDA: Yeah, I think the you know, excessive gendering of like color and style. It makes no sense. So we shouldn't do it. I can imagine there's something around maybe like confusing the gaze. Right, like trying to redirect it or disguise the target something along those lines, but also let everyone wear whatever clothes they want.
JULIA: Yeah, of course. I also think the idea too, that a lot of traditions believe that children in particular are very susceptible of getting the evil eye, like oh my god, that's such a cute baby. And they're like, no, no, no, don't compliment my baby that much because then he's gonna get sick or something.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So maybe it was the idea of like, if you put a boy and girl's clothing, he wouldn't receive as many compliments because boys get more compliments than girls do in Greek tradition.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or boys are more highly prized. And so disguising them, you know, as a lesser enchanter, might help avert that attention?
JULIA: Yes, not our beliefs [29:15]
AMANDA: Not our beliefs, but perhaps [29:17] increases.
JULIA: The idea of spitting in the folds of clothes was also said to help avoid the evil eye as well. The Romans turned to phallic charms to use against the evil eye because naturally, of course, they would. They would sometimes be worn as pendants or as finger rings, but more often appeared carved into buildings included in mosaics, and also interestingly, made into wind chimes that were known as [29:42]
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: Which I think is one, a great word. And two, the idea of phallic wind chimes makes me laugh hysterically. Also these Roman phallic representations, they would sometimes be depicted as um ejaculating toward the evil eye in order to attack it.
AMANDA: Oh, sure. Our hmm— I have a lot of guesses and speculation, but I'm gonna—I'm gonna think about those privately with my cocktail later.
JULIA: We're just gonna let you all sit with that and think about that for a second and then we'll move on.
AMANDA: Cool, cool cool.
JULIA: Tying this belief which was like a genuine belief and in the Greek's mind to scientific belief, to mythological beliefs around eyes. I would be remiss not to at least mention the story of the Gorgons and Medusa, who famously could turn a man into stone simply by meeting his gaze. During the Odyssey, Homer writes how Athena afflicted Odysseus with something called an [30:36] which was described as literally translated to an itching eye—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —which gave his eye kind of an unpleasant appearance, but also changed his appearance enough that he would not be recognized when returning to Epika.
AMANDA: I mean, sounds uncomfortable, but also, yeah, a lot of like misdirection and disguising happening, which, you know, is a rich—a rich text for folklore.
JULIA: Exactly. You know, what would have been more uncomfortable for him Amanda, getting murdered when he returned to his home?
AMANDA: Yeah, all in all, this is better.
JULIA: Yes. And then, of course, Greek and Roman gods were often associated or described as clouding the eyes of heroes, or else like lifting the mist from their eyes so that they can continue fighting. There was a lot of like, just imagery of eyes and the gods being connected to them in Greek and Roman mythology. Of course.
AMANDA: Totally. And you know, eyes are so often associated with like, the gods, you know, having a view of us and the go— you know, the gods being up on a mountain or up in the clouds, or being even, you know, Omni seeing like, right like seeing everything and omnipotent or what's the other word that we use Omni for God?
JULIA: Omnipression?
AMANDA: Yes, Omnipression, thank you. You know the gods see all, and sometimes we wish they don't. And sometimes we say like, we you saw that, why aren't you doing something about it? And so there's just—there's so much symbolism with eyes that it makes total sense why it is so deeply and fully tied to like your fate.
JULIA: Absolutely. I mean, it's just like, gosh, I fucking love mythology. That's how I feel every time like Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I love mythology. A lot of traditions about the evil eye, as we've talked about before are brought about without malice or not on purpose, but rather kind of just expressing appreciation for beauty or acknowledging accomplishments, right? So the concept of the evil eye and protection from such is like super important as you were talking about before to Islamic traditions as well. So according to Azure, Hamid Kumar, in his essay the concept of the evil and the evil eye in Islam and Islamic faith healing traditions, quote, a verse from the Quran is a worldwide spoken Islamic phrase Masha Allah used to appreciate or praise anything or anyone. The Muslims believe that saying, Masha Allah, which means, whatever Allah wishes will come to pass, protects one from the evil eye, end quote. So basically, this idea is that rather than appreciating, for example, someone's beauty and saying that out loud, invoking Allah's blessing upon the object, or the person being admired will help to protect them from the evil lion's den.
AMANDA: I think that makes total sense.
JULIA: Yeah. It's basically a way of making sure that you are not accidentally putting the evil eye on someone. Because again, a lot of these traditions believe that people don't do it on purpose. People just do it accidentally because they're like, oh, I'm like somewhat envious of things how beautiful you are, or your accomplishments or whatnot.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Super like that. In India, there is the Drishti, or as well, it's also known as the Nazar as it is in Turkey when referring to the evil eye. Babies who are as in many traditions, often most susceptible to the effects of the evil eye are often adorned with black eyeliner, which is known as a cudgel because the black color around the eye is said to ward off the evil eye.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: Again, this idea of color and eye imagery, intercepting these evil eyes, again, very common throughout all of these traditions, which I love.
AMANDA: I'm also loving the mental image of a bunch of babies with cool eyeliner.
JULIA: I love it. Yeah, it's probably adorable. And I just want to see all the babies. It's like you know how you see a lot of like Catholic babies get their ears pierced very early on. The idea of like a baby with eyeliner also totally appeals to me.
AMANDA: Me too.
JULIA: Additionally, often a amulet or a pendant is made out of the baby's umbilical cord, which is said to protect from the evil eye as well. Away from babies but instead for households or individuals, various ingredients can be used for protecting from the evil eye as well. Rocksalt is one, green or red chilies, lemons, chief among them when left outside of homes either in piles or in lines. It is said to ward away the evil eye from the family that resides there.
AMANDA: Nice. And also I'm sure makes your house smell nice.
JULIA: Oh my gosh. Yes. Just like the idea of like lemon salt all through my house. Smells delicious. I love it.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: I have to talk about Italian beliefs because those are probably the ones that I'm most familiar with. And of course, is what kind of got me started here on this, this journey through the evil eye, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Unlike most of the traditions that we've talked about, which mainly use this kind of eye imagery for protecting against the evil eye, the Italians famously use an amulet which is known as the cornicello or the little horn.
AMANDA: Little horn.
JULIA: So it is a horn-shaped or in some eyes, chili pepper-shaped amulet that I'm sure plenty of people have seen before. And people often refer to as the Italian horn.
AMANDA: Oh, for sure. I just thought it ties really like peppers. But that makes a lot more sense.
JULIA: No, no, it's actually a horn. And it's interesting kind of where it comes from. But like, also, as you can imagine, it is vaguely phallic-shaped.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And so it is also used not only to prevent the evil eye, but also to promote fertility, but mainly it is used and worn to protect against the evil eye, which I mentioned before is called the malocchio.
AMANDA: Yeah. And I mean, let's say there are a few things in the world that people have bigger feelings about than fertility, and, you know, having kids. And so it makes all the sense in the world to me that there is a lot wrapped up in the evil eye around miscarriage, around fertility, around babies, because that, you know, that is a hugely—society gives it a ton of importance, and people feel a lot of feelings about that.
JULIA: Absolutely. And I mean, those are things that we have been experiencing since we were people.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: You know what I mean, as—as a whole, humanity has always dealt with those things. So, of course, we want to find ways of preventing them or telling ourselves that we're preventing them naturally.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: The use and the wearing of the cornicello is mainly a southern Italian thing, which is why you see a lot of it in the Italian diaspora here in the United States because a lot of the Italians came from Sicily or South Italy, and then came to America. But it also can be tied back to some Greek and Roman mythology. I've seen some people tie it to the cornucopia of Zeus for example, to Priapus who's a fertility god, who's known for his big dick.
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: And Venus since the cornicello is sometimes made out of red coral, which is tied to love goddess and—
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: —Apparently also the the Hamsa which makes me so excited.
AMANDA: Yeah, Mediterranean Jews were like, seems like against badness. And so let—let me make my kids a little—a little coral necklace. And I'm sure also look cute.
JULIA: Awesome. Coral, really cute.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Great material to use for jewelry making. We love it.
AMANDA: We love it.
JULIA: So Italians also have like a name for a wielder of the evil eye, because the Italians also believe it's not just like, oh, you're not doing it on purpose, it's not malicious. Sometimes there are people who use it maliciously, and they refer to those people, those wielders of the evil eye as Jettatore
AMANDA: I love it.
JULIA: What I love too, is the idea that Italians believe that Jettatore have a certain look about them, because of course that's most of the Italian thing ever. So they believe that the Jettatore have striking facial features, high arching eyebrows, and a piercing stare.
AMANDA: Oh, wow.
JULIA: Yeah, that's just— that's so Italian. I can't even.
AMANDA: Yeah, it also isn't even a particular kind of facial feature except for the high arching eyebrows.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: But just striking. So like, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what color the eyes are. I just know that they're piercing.
JULIA: Yeah, that guy's got a vibe and it's piercing, and we don't like it.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: In particular Amanda, men who were very charismatic and are successful are often accused of being Jettatore. So for example, Pope Pius the ninth was said to be a Jettatore, and these many disasters that happened in Rome during his rule as Pope were blamed on his use of the Evil Eye.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Suck it, Pope Pius.
AMANDA: I guess.
JULIA: The Romans were not pleased with him whatsoever. They're like that guy, he's very charismatic, but we don't like him. Something's going on there.
AMANDA: Pope Pius more like Pope eye-us your evil light all over this empire.
JULIA: Oohhh.
AMANDA: Thanks. Thanks.
JULIA: So I am going to talk a little bit more about the evil eye traditions of Central and South America. I'm a little less familiar with these but I want to give kind of a couple of highlights that I found in my research. I do know that they have a lot of rich tradition surrounding the evil eye in Brazil. The Envy over things like attractive hair, romantic success, family harmony. And even as I mentioned before, well-tended to gardens—
AMANDA: Nooo.
JULIA: —could lead to [39:16], or the act of giving a bad look is what that directly translates to.
AMANDA: That's [39:20], baby.
JULIA: Yeah, baby. One of my favorite ones is the idea that well-behaved children, especially boys, who then start to act out as teenagers, would said to be victims of this from other parents who are jealous that their children were not as well-behaved.
AMANDA: Sure, sure. Yeah, it's not— it's not teenage hormones and my kid growing away from me and eventually living somewhere else. It is definitely the evil eye.
JULIA: My sweet boy, he would never do this. It might be the evil eye. That felt very Italian to me. It's like, no, my sweet baby. No, he would never.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Specific plants planted in gardens could help keep the evil eye at bay. Amulets as well. Also, the use of mirrors on the door of your home, either inside or outside. So Amanda, if you're worried about your gardens and your neighbors, like giving you the evil eye because they think your garden is going too strong, just put a mirror on your door, and you're all set.
AMANDA: Yeah. So that when the sun hits it at a certain angle, it will blind them and teach them not to look enviously upon my garden.
JULIA: How dare they. Or it'll just reflect the evil eye back onto them. It's perfect.
AMANDA: Yeah, that's true. Maybe a little bird will look at their reflections. And that'd be cute.
JULIA: Oh, I was just— this is a complete aside, I really want to get one of those like see-through bird feeders to put on my big glass doors so that when the—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —when the birds come, I can look at them. And it would be great.
AMANDA: Adorable.
JULIA: In Latin America, and particularly in Mexico, the evil eye could be removed by passing a chicken egg over the body of the victim to absorb the power of the evil eye, which I actually think a listener has sent in a story about that from our hometown urban legends episode. So I remember hearing about that. And I was like, oh, exciting. So basically, the idea is that the egg would absorb the information. And then you would either crack it and then leave it under someone's bed or under their pillow, like in a glass, or if you crack it and it's cooked. That is—
AMANDA: Oh, [41:16]
JULIA: —like a sign or it's discolored. That's a sign that the evil eye had been absorbed.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: Which I love that one. I just like that there's a physical evidence like, oh, look, egg—egg got cooked. So we know—we know it's bad.
AMANDA: Must be bad.
JULIA: Also commonly used to deter the evil eye is red string or red ribbon, which when it is attached to a person, an animal, an object, that one wants to protect from the evil eye, the bright ribbon is said to attract the gaze rather than the intended target.
AMANDA: Yeah, and some—some people who practice Kabbalah, a Jewish tradition, which is like in text and also a thing that you know about from Madonna, it's like it's a whole thing, will tie a red ribbon around a baby's wrist as the exact same thing.
JULIA: Again, attract not the attention of the baby, but rather the attention of the red-colored thing.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: And again, that's the opposite of the blue thing, which I'm, I'm digging again, color, ca—I feel like I'm just like, I want to talk about color theory now. But I'm not an artist, so I can't possibly do that.
AMANDA: Listen. It could be a guest episode, get in touch. It could be.
JULIA: There you go. And I mean, at the end of the day, Amanda, this is what I love most about the evil eye, is that not only is it so widespread, but it's the fact that the beliefs have honestly not changed all that much over the centuries, right? So like, while the ancient Egyptians and the ancient Turks were painting the evil eye on the bows of their ships, we're still doing something similar. Like you can literally find evil eyes painted on the sides of airplanes nowadays to protect them for their journeys.
AMANDA: I didn't know that.
JULIA: It is still tradition around the world to gift evil eye tokens, or as you just said, to wrap ribbons or string around bait newborn babies, so that they are protected just as they were over like 1000 years ago. As I mentioned, it is such a widespread tradition that is both unique to the places that it is believed in, but also has this beautiful true line where it remains similar, right?
AMANDA: Life is hard and if we can just use a little something to help us get through our day without being deterred, why not?
JULIA: And I mean, that is a thing that we have been doing since humanity was humanity. And that's the best part about these traditions, about mythology, about folklore and traditional beliefs. And it's beautiful and wonderful. It makes me love mythology every time I—I learned about it.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: If you grew up with evil eye traditions, or if you still practice them, I would love to hear from you guys, you can email us at spiritspodcast@gmail.com or send a message through our contact form at Spiritspodcast.com/contact. And I know that like for me at least I'm going to keep my evil eye pin on my jacket for the foreseeable future. You know, just in case.
AMANDA: I love it. Julia. So next time you see someone with a piercing gaze and think evil eye. Remember—
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!