Episode 254: Mermaids, Magic, and Murder (with Maggie Tokuda-Hall)
/This week, author Maggie Tokuda-Hall joins us to talk about all things murder and magic. From the exploration of gender, to werewolves as a metaphor for trauma, and everything in between, this interview has it all!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of fire, body image, drug use, blood, imperialism, fascism, racism, gender dysphoria, homophobia, transphobia, eating disorders, sexual assault, rape, trauma, and sex.
Housekeeping
- Live Show: Join us October 27th at 8:00 EST for a LIVE virtual show! Get your tickets at spiritspodcast.com/live!
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends The Final Girl Support Group by Grady Hendrix.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out The Newest Olympian: Join Mike Schubert, a first-time PJO reader, on his quest to find out if Percy Jackson is the YA series we should’ve been reading all along! Search for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app or go to thenewestolympian.com to start listening!
Guest
Maggie Tokuda-Hall is the author Also an Octopus, illustrated by Benji Davies, The Mermaid, The Witch and The Sea, Squad, illustrated by Lisa Sterle, and Love in the Library illustrated by Yas Imamura with more books forthcoming. She lives in Oakland, California with her husband, son, and objectively perfect dog. You can follow her on Twitter, @emteehall or on Instagram @maggietokudahall.
Sponsors
- Girlfriend Collective makes sustainable, ethically made activewear for everyone. Get $25 off your purchase of $100 or more when you go to girlfriend.com/spirits.
- Skillshare is an online learning community where you can learn—and teach—just about anything. Explore your creativity at Skillshare.com/spirits and get a free trial of Premium Membership. This week Amanda recommends “Video for Instagram - Tell an Engaging Story in Less Than a Minute" by Hallease Narvaez
- Rothy’s makes stylish and sustainable shoes, bags, and masks. Get $20 off your first purchase at rothys.com/SPIRITS
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 254: Mermaids, Magic, and Murder, with Maggie Tokuda-Hall. Julia titles the episodes, and Julia, I think you've outdone yourself. I don't think you've ever had a title as good as this one, and we'll have to see what tops it.
JULIA: I'm extremely flattered by that, and I'm also extremely flattered that Maggie took the time to come on the show. She is an author that I kind of discovered during quarantine when I picked up her first book and the fact that we get to talk to her now, both about that book and her newest graphic novel is really, really exciting.
AMANDA: Yes. We talked to her months ago and I, I had that thing that you see on the internet where we were able to get a galley of the book and I was like, I have never wanted to brag as much as I want to brag right now about reading this book, because guys it's so good. You're gonna love it.
JULIA: The graphic novel is so good that we got the galley but I also pre-ordered my own physical copy. That's how good this graphic novel is.
AMANDA: 100%. And also so good, Julia, you know it's our new patrons; Allegra, Matt, Brittany, and Solo, thank you all for joining us. We're so happy that you joined the ranks of our Supporting-producer level patrons: Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah,
Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, Theo, and Zazi. And the Legend-level patrons: Audra, Clara, Drew, Jaybaybay, Ki, Lexus, Mary, Morgan, Morgan H., Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty
JULIA: All fantastic people with a lot of magic and, hopefully not murder, in their lives, but we hope if you want to learn about murder, you have it in your life? I don't know. That got away from me.
AMANDA: Well, we, we love spiritually hanging out with them, as our beloved patrons. And we look forward to hanging out with some of you next week for our live show. Julia, I can't believe spooky-season is here. We're in the midst of it. My powers are returning and we're going to be having a live show that you can also watch after the fact BT Dubs if you can't make it or you're in a different time zone, October 27th at 8pm Eastern and tickets are at spiritspodcast.com/live.
JULIA: You have to check it out. I am debuting a new type of game for us to talk about.
AMANDA: Breaking news. I didn't know that. I love it.
JULIA: And I think you guys are gonna enjoy it. It's got a great, at least one of the segments has a great visual element that I think is worth coming and getting tickets for solely for that segment.
AMANDA: So, your ticket involves both. You can come live or you can watch it later so you can rewatch it. We try to make it, you know, as, as valuable for you as possible and that ticket is at spiritspodcast.com/live. And Julia, as you are preparing for our live show, have you been reading, or watching, or listening to anything to, like, really get in the spooky mood?
JULIA: So, Amanda, I went to a bookstore for the first time in a while the other day.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Mostly because we were stopping to get coffee and there was a Starbucks attached to it, but I stumbled into the new-released section and I saw a title that immediately I was like, "Oh. Oh, no. I have to read this immediately," and the title is The Final Girl Support Group by Grady Hendrix.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: And I've been thinking a lot because we've been watching a lot of horror movies lately for October, and I've been thinking a lot about the Final Girl trope. And oh, my God, does this book hit, like, all of my buttons in the best possible way.
AMANDA: It's real, Julia, bait that title. I'm so glad that you were enjoying it.
JULIA: Truly is. It's delightful and it might be a inspiration for a future Spirits episode. Who can say?
AMANDA: Ooh. Well, you can find a link to that in the description and at spiritspodcast.com/books as always. And finally, you know, if you out there, wonderful conspirator, have caught up on Spirits and you're reading our book recommendations. You're like, "Damn, I just wish there was another podcast from Multitude that I could catch up on." May I recommend our newest member show, The Newest Olympian.
JULIA: I know that Amanda and I, we kind of missed the boat when it came to the Percy Jackson series. I think we were a little bit too old when the series came out, but I have really been enjoying listening to our pal, Mike Schubert, read through the Percy Jackson books for the first time and, like, experience Greek mythology through a lens that isn't just Spirits and also the game Hades on various platforms.
AMANDA: So, whether you want to join and use this podcast like a book club to read the book along as well, or you have and you're interested, or you're not and you just want to enjoy some entertainment, go to thenewestolympian.com or search The Newest Olympian in your podcast app.
JULIA: Comes out every Monday, new episodes.
AMANDA: Whoo. All right. Well, we are so excited to bring you this conversation with Maggie Tokuda-Hall. All the links that you're possibly going to need to all of her books are in the description. And without further ado, we hope you enjoy Spirits podcast Episode 254: Mermaids, Magic, and Murder.
AMANDA: We are so excited. A person whose books we have recommended for years and finally we get to talk to you. Maggie Tokuda-Hall, welcome to Spirits. Please let everybody know who you are and what you make.
MAGGIE: Hi, thank you guys so much for having me. I'm Maggie Tokuda-Hall. I'm a children's and young adult book author, and the author of Also An Octopus, which is a picture book, The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, which is a young adult novel and the forthcoming graphic novel, Squad.
JULIA: Which I'm very, very excited about, personally.
AMANDA: I cannot wait for it.
MAGGIE: Thank you.
AMANDA: I know. I'm, like, extreme anticipation.
JULIA: Yeah. So, I think we should start out with the question that we usually ask our guests on this show, which is, what kind of stories did you grow up with? Like, what were the stories that got you into fantasy? Things like witches and mermaids, and werewolves.
MAGGIE: I mean, I think those are two different answers for me. I'm Japanese and Jewish. So, I grew up with a lot of Japanese and Jewish stories in our family stories, of course. And I wasn't actually super into fantasy at all, as a little kid. I remember watching The Last Unicorn and being like, "This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my entire life." But when I was in middle school, we moved when I was in seventh grade, which is sort of a brutal age to be a new kid at school.
AMANDA: The literal, worst year to move.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: I think.
MAGGIE: Other than my sister who had to move when she was a junior in high school.
JULIA: Oof.
MAGGIE: Oof, rude. Anyway, for obvious reasons, I didn't have a lot of friends yet and so I would read in the library at lunch to kind of act like, you know, I totally didn't mind that I didn't have friends. I was just really busy doing this reading and I started reading the Patricia Wrede, Enchanted Forest Chronicles, and I read them all and like, just back-to-back-to-back-to-back and I, like, reread them and I loved them so much. And I think that's when I really started to love fantasy.
JULIA: That's incredible. I love that. I love that you tried to play it cool being like, "Yeah, I'm just going to read in the library." We are also nerds who like to read in the library rather than make friends. So, I appreciate it.
AMANDA: I was like, "Hey, teachers. Anyone need errands to run? Anyone need copies?" Just literally anything to take me away from my peers for at least 10 seconds.
JULIA: It's, it's so good that we stayed friends, Amanda, because otherwise we would have been just hot messes.
AMANDA: No, it's very true, went to, you know, weird, and gay, and lovely and, like, going to grow up to be cool mythology nerds. Can sit in silence together and read. That is honestly the ideal and I’m glad [6:55], Julia.
MAGGIE: So wait, have you guys known each other since you were in middle school?
JULIA: Since we were five?
MAGGIE: What?
JULIA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: That's amazing.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm. Companions from the cradle is what we call each other.
MAGGIE: That's amazing.
AMANDA: Yeah, we went to college in different cities. And then, when we were both back in New York, that's when we started Spirits to, you know, get together regularly and talk about the things we like to talk about already, which is mythology and folklore.
MAGGIE: Perfect.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Speaking of mythology, and folklore. So, I want to talk a little bit about The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, because that was my introduction to your work. You might remember a tweet that I sent to you that I got sunburned because I sat out in the sun and read the whole book in one day.
MAGGIE: Yes.
JULIA: That was, like, my, like, first, like, nice moment of pandemic. Was just sitting down and reading your book out on, like, a blanket in the lawn, and it was delightful. So, in your novel, the sea is a deity and also, like, the physical embodiment of the sea. And I just, I love that kind of aspect and I talked about it on another show as well. Just, like, from a world-building perspective, and from a mythology perspective, that's such a cool thing. So, was there a particular mythological background that you kind of drew that idea from, or was it something that you kind of combined a bunch of different things to make this new whole cloth?
MAGGIE: Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of cultures that worship, like, the sky, the mountains, the sea, whatever. And I find that interesting and compelling already, but the way that the sea functions in The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea is more based in California ecology. I live in California, which just, like, goes ablaze for about 2-3 months every year now. It's just fire season. We just know that's happening, and part of it is because. Well, mostly it's because of our horrible interventions at so many different stages that were made. A lot of them being, ignoring the advice of indigenous people of how to tend for plants that are around here, because California is meant to burn. Like, it's always been a fire climate, and that's why it didn't used to be a problem when there would be fires because all the plants around here knew how to burn. It was, like, this idea that they had some kind of memory. They knew how to do this correctly, and because of our intervention, they forgot, and they forgot, and they forgot, and it became more, and more dangerous for us. And that was how I thought about the sea and the mermaids. This idea of nature having proprietary memories that are externalized and becoming more volatile, a force due to human greed and poor management and imperialism and the, you know, disregard of what indigenous people have had to say. And so, it felt very in-tune with the themes I was already thinking about when I wrote The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea.
JULIA: And I love the idea that the mermaids as the sea's children, like, hold her memories. Not to quote you at you for a second because I like doing that on the show, but, "For she is too old and too great to hold them all herself, when a new memory rises and demands to be held by the sea, a mermaid is born." And I just, like, I cried a little bit of that. I think that's really beautiful, and I love the idea that you kind of drew from, like, the, the memory of plants and the ability for, like, this force of nature to hold memory. That's something I would have never expected to be the inspiration for that and to find that out, it's very, very cool. So, thank you for that.
MAGGIE: Oh, I'm glad. Also, I'm pretty sure every writer likes having their work quoted back at them and like, "Oh, me? You want to quote me? Oh, no. Don't. Stop."
JULIA: I feel like if I was a writer, I would be embarrassed and be like, "No, don't. I don't want to hear my own words of me. Don't say that."
MAGGIE: It's like both. It's like being told you're pretty, you know what I mean? You're like--
JULIA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: --no. Gross. Oh, I hate it. Tell me more.
AMANDA: Stop. More.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Say it again.
JULIA: No, I love that. There's also a great moment, I'm trying not to spoil too, too much about the book because obviously I want people to pick it up, but there's a great moment where some of the sailors capture a mermaid which is, like, rare. And usually, they drain the mermaids of their blood in order to sell it as a drug, which you called The Oblivion Drink, because it, like, brings beautiful visions, but also takes away memories. And I really like this idea that these sailors who are, like, greedy and want this, like, this resource, aren't able to keep the mermaids alive. But one of the main characters, Evelyn, is the one who figures out like, "Oh, you have to give in order to take."
MAGGIE: Mmh-hmm.
JULIA: I really like that, was that, like, a certain inspiration for that as well, or was that kind of just like, I want to show that this sweet, sweet girl is very good, and pure?
MAGGIE: Gosh, yeah. I think it's more the latter, and less that she's pure than that she's just willing to make a sacrifice.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
MAGGIE: Like, it doesn't even occur to any of the men that they might have to give something to make this work, and because all the magic in this book kind of functions on sort of, like, a fucked up barter system. Like--
JULIA: Yep.
MAGGIE: --if you're going to have power, you have to give something. So, that was more where it came from. And what's funny, I've never had the question posed to me quite that way, which I'm so excited about. So, thank you. The very first scene I wrote from this book is the scene where the mermaid comes on deck.
JULIA: Yes.
MAGGIE: And it was the moment from Florian's perspective, I was thinking about it, of what it would be like to fall in love with someone in that moment of kindness. And that was where the whole book kind of, like, came from. So, it's so cool to be asked about that scene specifically. That's one of the only things that remains super close to the first draft that I ever wrote.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Oh, that's awesome. I'm, I'm so glad I hit the nail on the head there. Which I, I guess raises a question too. Obviously, across the world, there are mermaid myths. Was there a particular mermaid myth that you were inspired by in creating your own mermaids or again, was this, like, something that you kind of combined a bunch of different ideas in order to make your mermaids?
MAGGIE: So, I super purposely did not do research about mermaids.
JULIA: Nice.
MAGGIE: Even though there are so many myths, and maybe because there are so many wonderful myths, I didn't want my mermaids to be identifiable to any one nationality, or group or, you know, sort of storytelling tradition. And so, I did my absolute best to create them, whole cloth as best as I could. Because so much of fantasy comes from the British history of imperialism, it's really hard to escape certain trappings and tropes that are made by this sort of vicious and violent force in the world. And I was trying my best to acknowledge my own participation in these systems and privilege from them, while also creating something that didn't pander to that. Like, didn't rely on those things as best as I could.
JULIA: And I think you did a great job because I do think your mermaids are very unique in a lot of, and I've read a lot of fantasy, in a lot of the fantasy that I, that I've seen in the past. So--
MAGGIE: Thank you.
JULIA: --congratulations on that. I really liked them.
MAGGIE: Thank you, jeez.
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AMANDA: Mmh.
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AMANDA: All right. Well, now, let's get back to the show.
JULIA: Kind of going back to what you mentioned about magic being a bartering system in your world, you did this great job in explaining to the audience how your magic works through the kind of folktales that's in obeah shares with Florian. Can you tell us a little bit about the magic system that you chose for the book and kind of why you decided on this one in particular?
MAGGIE: Yeah. The magic system was so hard to create. If you ever sit down to write a fantasy novel, don't.
JULIA: Don't make rules.
MAGGIE: The hardest part of all of this was, like, how the fuck does the magic work. Like, goddammit, why did I do this to myself?
AMANDA: You just suddenly become an expert on, like, thermodynamics and physics.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: And you know, conservation of energy.
MAGGIE: I mean, the lines between science fiction and fantasy are, like, I think make believe in a ton of ways.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: And I think the invention of a magic system is, like, perfect examples of that, because there are so many people who really do want magic to function like science.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
MAGGIE: Like, give me the rules, tell me how this is gonna work, and I'm like, "But I just wanted them to have magic." And so, for the magic in this world, I came from, like, a couple different places. In terms of the fact that it's, it's basically narrative magic. Like, people make up stories about things, and that's how they exert power in the world. And that largely came from writing this, dearing, and directly after the 2016 election. I had tried writing this book so many times before that. I had started years, and years, and years, before that, but that was when I finally wrote an ending.
JULIA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: And started kind of, like, being more clear about what the rules in this world were. And I watched Trump making these fucking suspicious, terrible claims that had nothing to do with reality about his own life and about the world. And it didn't matter that those things weren't true, they still held this incredible sway. I hate him with all of me, but you can't deny the fact that he had this incredible power in creating a fake story. And to me, that was, like, a kind of magic. It didn't make sense. It had no bearing in reality. It had nothing to do with science. Once I was like, "Okay, that's really interesting." And I had that in my mind. I also grew up Jewish so the telling of stories and retelling of them, and thinking about the different ways that they function is something that's very natural to me, and something that I do all the time from so much childhood practice. And then, when I really started thinking about the idea of, like, making stories, and that being a type of magic. It came back to writing for young adults for me, which I feel like that dovetails so beautifully, thematically in, because teenagers are doing that work, of figuring out how they're going to tell their own story for kind of the first time. That's really when you start having real autonomy in the way that you talk about yourself. You purposely distance yourself from your parents. You do these things to kind of make that work, and that is no different than the process that nations go through, that religions go through, that, you know, any kind of organization goes through, of creating their narrative around themselves. And I think that that is really complicated and magical work that I hope that teenagers would feel a kind of affinity for, because they're in the midst of doing it. And so, I hoped that it would feel like a reflection of their power to read it.
JULIA: Absolutely.
AMANDA: When you moved with your family, did you tell any lies or re-framings about yourself in your new school? I used to fantasize about that as someone who did not move as a kid.
MAGGIE: You know, we moved and changed schools and stuff so many times that I was kind of accustomed to being the new kid, and I didn't do the super creative thing of, like, acting like a brand new person every time. I would just always try to act like I had been really cool without ever saying that.
JULIA: Smart.
AMANDA: That's a great strategy, and no one can fact-check you.
MAGGIE: I'm here with you plebs now. but before, anyway. I don't even want to get into it.
JULIA: You don't have to know about my mysterious past.
MAGGIE: Yeah, very.
AMANDA: Oh, my god. I love it.
JULIA: So, like I said, that was a beautiful explanation of how your magic works. And you do a really great job in telling those stories in the novel to kind of explain it. The stories that [21:49] tells about the first witch, were those inspired by anything in particular? Because they felt very, like, fairy tale-y to me, but that's obviously, like, the background that I'm coming from.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
JULIA: So, what were the stories?
MAGGIE: So, there's, like, three or four different stories in it. The first one, the story of the creation of the first witch is one that I just made up. That's, that didn't come from anywhere, but it deals with some sort of, like, familiar fairy tale tropes that you mentioned. Like, the idea of women becoming more powerful as they are ugly.
JULIA: Sure.
MAGGIE: I guess it's actually kind of a subversion of the way that it usually works, because usually, it's like, they are powerful and beautiful at the same time, and as their beauty diminishes, so does their power. And I kind of wanted it to be the opposite. She's powerful when she's ugly, she's loved when she's beautiful. And those are two different kinds of power. And then, the one about the man who wishes for a wife is based on a Vietnamese folktale that I learned about from a handout at a restaurant.
JULIA: Very cool. I love that.
MAGGIE: My sister was living in Hanoi for, like, a couple years. And so, I went to visit her twice. And one of the places that she took me was, like, this great restaurant and with your menu, they would just, like, hand-out folktales. Like, on a little 8 and 1/2 by 11 pieces of paper, and this was one. And I was like, "Well, that's fun." So, I, you know, altered it a bit so that it was more in tune with the world that this is set in, because there were some details where, like, we can't talk about Vietnam, the nation in this story. So, that was neat. The, the story about the mustard seeds is actually a Buddhist story. Like, very closely. Even the collection of mustard seeds particularly is, is from the Buddhist story. And the story about a mermaid being banished into the middle of the desert by a god throwing a mirror into it that creates the Oasis that she lives in is the origin story for in Oasis in Peru that now I just forgot the name of, that I visited and they sell, like, tons of mermaid merch. But mostly, you just go there to, like, rent shitty sand dune equipment, and, like, get drunk. That's sort of what you do.
JULIA: That sounds fun.
MAGGIE: I mean, it's not bad, but it's like, if I was a mermaid, I would not enjoy living there.
JULIA: Yeah, you'd want your Oasis to be a little bit more magical, I feel like.
MAGGIE: And, like, clean?
JULIA: I don't mind people coming and getting drunk. I do mind the sand, the sand dunes stuff.
MAGGIE: Yeah, okay. You can come, you can share my space, put your feet in my water. All of this is gravy, but like the minute you start, like, throwing your beer cans in my Oasis, you get the fuck out.
JULIA: Yeah, that's the problem. Now we have a problem.
MAGGIE: Yeah, and it's not the people who are from there doing this. To be clear, it is tourists' show up, get wasted, and just act fools.
JULIA: Now, I want to open-. Amanda, when we open our bookstore/like, beer store eventually-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: --in our future.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I want to hand out little folklore things on little index cards to everyone who buys a beer. That sounds incredible.
AMANDA: I love that.
MAGGIE: Could you imagine folklore-ziens? You should do it.
JULIA: Yes.
MAGGIE: That would be the best.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: We've had a couple of our listeners send us their own folklore-ziens, and they've been incredible. So, if you would make those, please let us know, I will buy them. You don't have to send them to me, I will just buy them. It's fine.
AMANDA: We can also do, like, coasters with printing on both sides, with either there's, like, an addition. And so it, you know, drives repeat customers. You have to, like, collect all five or something.
JULIA: There you go.
AMANDA: But then, your coasters are taken out of the bar every day. So, we have to do the, the cost benefit there, but I, I love that.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
JULIA: It's good promotion, though.
AMANDA: Exactly. Exactly.
JULIA: So, we, we talked a little bit about Florian briefly before, but Flora/Florian's gender is a huge part of the book, and for me, one of the most impactful parts of the book. So, I would love if you could talk a little bit about the choice to kind of approach gender in the way that you did with Flora and kind of how it impacts the rest of the story. If you don't mind.
MAGGIE: Yeah, I don't mind at all. So, like I was saying earlier, the idea of sort of writing the story of who you are being the work that, you know, kids and teenagers are doing is something that Flora/Florian is in the middle of doing throughout the course of this story. The work that they do on themself is just as pivotal for every plot point as the work that, you know, as [23:53] does to train them to be a witch that Evelyn does around herself to kind of empower herself. And I think my ideas for the way that Florian feels about themselves come from a lot of different places. I am a huge fan of girls dressed up as boys in fantasy stories. Like, that's, like, always my favorite thing. I did want to complicate it. Like, I didn't want it to just be a question of passing, which I think is actually not that interesting of a question. It's fun. It adds, like, a lot of fun tension, and it can be, like, sexy fun.
AMANDA: Mmh-hmm.
MAGGIE: So, in no way is that meant to be shady toward books that have that, but I wanted to get it kind of, like, root questions about the way that gender functions as something that is surveilled and punished. And so, the reason Florian sort of becomes a boy, is treated as a boy, is raised as a boy, among these pirates is in part for his own safety, but also is Rake's way of basically communicating to the other pirates that he's demanding respect for this child. It's like, "Well, you can't be a girl so you're just going to be a boy. That's how it is." And the idea of being a boy to be safe, I think is, you know, I thought a lot about the guys who I grew up with in the way that toxic masculinity played out among them, and how different they were when they were with each other, versus when they were just with me, versus how they were with their girlfriend or whatever it was. You know, in the way that they would become more violent, more aggressive, more confrontational, when they were all together as a way of sort of proving their manhood. So, Florian reflects a lot of that but, you know, she also reflects a lot of feelings I've had about my own gender as I go through life and my feelings change wildly from context to context and from period of life, you know, to a period of life. And so, I wanted to have a character who reflected the fact that gender isn't a question you necessarily know the answer to all the time, and that she would, and being gender fluid as opposed to, like, straight up non-binary.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
MAGGIE: Sometimes it's easier to use they/them pronouns for Flora/Florian because switching back and forth between he and she in conversation can be disorienting for people, which is kind of part of it. It is disorienting, it's difficult and I think when you come to that side of it and realizing, you know, both of these things are true, neither of them are the whole truth. I just wanted to have a more complicated version I guess that better reflected how I feel. And also, how I see these questions being played out among my friends and people I'm around. It's not always just like a clean, "Aha, I understand now," moment.
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: No, I, I feel that very much.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I will also say, I saw the title of the book and I was like, "Oh, yeah. Those are all things that I like," and then someone wrote a blog. It was like a gender fluid pirates. I'm like, "Oh, god. Pre-order, where's the pre order. Like, right now."
AMANDA: It is so exciting because in sort of, like, gender and sexuality discourses, often, your exploration of your gender starts from a place of discomfort, you know, of crisis. And you can also get to a place where you revel in gender expression, and your gender in particular, and find it so delightful. And like trans joy is the--
MAGGIE: Yes.
AMANDA: --thing that, like, I fill my Instagram with, because it is so fantastic. And that does not only include, like, let's get away from gender, let's choose a third distinct gender. It can be all these things that suit me right now, once who's me today, once who is tomorrow, that's gonna be different six months from now, or 20 years from now. And I just, I love seeing that complication in your book
MAGGIE: Thank you.
JULIA: It is really nice that you do get that moment of kind of, like, gender euphoria for Flora/Florian.
MAGGIE: Yes.
JULIA: In that that scene, you know, again, I should share it here.
MAGGIE: Thank you. Among the best of compliments to give a writer. Yeah, I wanted Florian to have that moment of empowerment of, like, knowing who you are and being, like, that, feeling confident in that feeling of duality and feeling these different ways is the magic that empowers them, right?
JULIA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: Like, that's what enables Florian to do what Florian does. The most powerful feedback I've gotten from the book, are kids who say that they've come out as non-binary or as gender fluid after reading this, and now it's like, I wept every time. It's like yes. Fuck yes, because you're so much more powerful when you are who you are and you feel like you have that freedom to just be your most authentic self. And so, that was beyond even what my hopes for the book were because I don't dream that big. I was just like, "Please let anyone read," but that is, like, my, my dearest and most vulnerable hope for the book, is that kids would read it and feel like they also had that kind of power over their own narrative and that, that kind of magic is so powerful.
AMANDA: Yeah. I experienced that too after coming out, in reading people's advice and support and all that kind of thing, realizing that, you know, people fear things that have power over them and, you know, it doesn't excuse or make homophobia and transphobia any less of an urgent matter and a very, like, real lived experience for people every day. But it's also true that that reflects power and--
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: --at least for me, you know, much of the time, being a queer is a thing thatI would never give up. I feel so lucky, you know, I'm so glad that this is, you know, part of my life and identity because it is, like, the most powerful thing. To look at traditions that other people don't question or feel really hemmed in by and be like, "No, man. Like, us over here, we question everything, we complicate everything, we queer everything. You know, like it is--
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: --it is all up for discussion and debate, and figuring out what best suits you and society.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
JULIA: Let's talk about your new upcoming graphic novel, Squad. I'm very excited about this.
MAGGIE: Yeah. Oh, man, me too. It's the book of my secret ugly heart.
JULIA: I saw that tweet. It was like, werewolves, tampons, parties, murder, betrayal, and acknowledgement of the sapphic history of all girls schools. I'm like, "Okay. Maggie, yes."
MAGGIE: Yeah. It's hard for me to talk about because I am genuinely so excited, because it's such, like, a personal book to me in a lot of ways. And I, like, desperately want people to like it, but it is set in a town where I grew up, which is a suburb of Oakland, basically, except for that it's its own city, because a bunch of white people in the early 1900s were like, "We don't want to be part of Oakland." So, they made this city called Piedmont. And that's where I went to high school, not exactly where I grew up the whole time, but that's where I went to high school. And it's like, this very rigid, upper middle class bastion of conformity within the Bay Area, which is, like, famous for being nonconformist. The pressures that we put on girls there is just incredible. The amount of girls, I think it was six different women when I was in high school who got hospitalized for Bulimia, or Anorexia.
AMANDA: Wow.
MAGGIE: So, that's the kind of place that, you know, it's set. And it's about a new girl who moves to that place when she's a junior in high school, much as my sister had to, and she has never fit in before and when she shows up, the most popular group of girls in that school just sort of like whisked her up into their group. And she's just, like, dizzy with the joy of being included. Except for that it turns out that that group of girls are werewolves, and they turn into werewolves at every full moon and they go to parties and find the worst boy that they can and eat him.
JULIA: Yes.
MAGGIE: And of course, things go, not quite the way that they would plan, but I had so much fun writing it. I think it's so different from The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea. It's a lot more joke-y and, like, crude and crass the entire time, but I do feel like that's closer to my, my actual personality. So that's, I feel like The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea was, like, a philosophical book that I wrote with, like, a lot of questions in mind. And Squad is the book that I wrote from, like, an extremely emotional place, trying to deal with the rape culture I was raised with and the sexual assault that, you know, I went through from being in that kind of place. So, you know, it's werewolves, it's about sex, it's about rape culture. It's never gonna sound funny, but I hope you think it is.
JULIA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: In this book.
AMANDA: I think it is going to be incredibly funny. I'm very excited.
JULIA: Yes. I'm very excited to pick it up. I'm, I'm curious why werewolves?
MAGGIE: Yeah.
JULIA: I know that, like, werewolves, classic monster or classic, like, you know, mythological figure, you know, usually--
MAGGIE: Yeah.
JULIA: --compared to, like, vampires or something like that, but I'm curious why you picked here, like, lady werewolves. Teen werewolves. Let's go.
MAGGIE: First of all, werewolves are great, and I love them.
JULIA: Yes.
MAGGIE: And I love collecting werewolf stories because there's, like, just like there are vampire stories from all over the world, there are, like, different were animal types from all over the world, which is cool. But what I like is that they are monsters created by trauma. So, you get bitten by one. Very bad day for you. Maybe you almost die. Lots of people do die, you for some reason make it, but you don't make it unscathed and so, you become this monster. And that felt to me the truest way to represent some of the anger that I felt growing up within this sort of, like, strictly patriarchal boy-loving-girl, hating culture. And it was also how I felt in the wake of sexual assault. Where it's like, this thing happened to me and now I feel like something is wrong with me. Like, now I have this terrible anxiety or I get vertigo when I have to go to the gym and there's too many men there or like, whatever it is, and how angry that made me. And I feel like that's one of the things that werewolves also represent really well, is incredible anger, this uncontrollable hunger, and anger and that being something dangerous. And so, I liked the idea of this group of girls who are forced to be perfect at everything and feel like they're fucking nailing it. Like, they're like, "Yeah. I can do that. I can be all the things you are asking for," but have to sort of exercise this monster side of that somewhere. And so, the idea of like this intense pressure, also being a trauma that creates monsters was one that I really liked and one that made me laugh. Like, there's just nothing not funny about beautiful girls becoming dogs. I love it. I love when the, like, sexually, you know, mysterious attractive whatever the way that we pin really gross sex feelings on teenage girls butts up against just the vile and the violence and the grotesque is, like, my sweet space of feeling at home.
AMANDA: I am rewatching Gossip Girl right now, which I have to tell you, absolutely stands up, at least season one, it's like it is a perfect example of what it is and exactly what you're saying, Maggie, of like people who choose the systems that they navigate and do them really well or, like, learn to adapt really well on a space of they don't necessarily want to be in, but are. And then, they do, like, next level Bond villain style, like social heist.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's just a thing that it seems like made for me. And I, it's just like, it feels like you need that outlet somehow. And seeing such a literal example of it, it's fantastical but like, a thing that you can point to and say like, "This is inside me all along."
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: "I don't let it out or I can't let it out or you don't get to see it, but it's here and it's another power that I wield," is just like, mwah.
MAGGIE: Yeah. Imagine Gossip Girl, but with werewolves like--
JULIA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: --that's what I want.
AMANDA: I'm sweating. I want to read this book so much.
MAGGIE: Well, I had so much fucking fun writing it and also trying to make my own werewolf myths was difficult and different, because there are, there's like certain things that we all agree on. Like, they come out at the full moon. They're dangerous. Here's where the agreements stop.
JULIA: Did you approach this in a similar way to the mermaids in Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, and the fact that, like, you didn't do much research going into it, or did you do a bunch of research and then you're like, "I want that, and that, and that, and that?"
MAGGIE: I did not do a ton of research for this, because it is the book of my secret ugly heart, I had the werewolves’ function, how I needed them to function.
JULIA: Exactly.
MAGGIE: So, I wrote them from, like, again, an emotional place, where this is how that magic needs to work in order for this story to function. So, that's how the magic works, because I said so, and I can do whatever I want.
JULIA: Hell yeah,
AMANDA: Exactly. I don't even know how to characterize it, but like that, I, I picture a little, like, a little nest of worms inside me. That's just like it is, like, broiling and it knows what it wants and I don't want to let them out. Like, that is, that is so often the thing that you say, or you make or you put out in the world. And people are like, "Fuck yeah, dude. I see right there. My worm recognizes your worm and, like, we are absolutely here together, allowing agriculture to happen with our transformation of soil." I'm really getting deep into agriculture here, but I, I just think that that impulse and that feeling in that like, "Oh, this is very close to me." I don't know, that is the kind of thing that I love the most.
JULIA: I've been thinking about it as my magpie heart lately. Like, well, that's the shiny thing that I want and you also have that shiny thing that you want so.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: Aw. I have a much cruder thing for it, which is it's like showing someone your dirty underpants.
AMANDA: Yeah.
MAGGIE: Like, that's how it feels when you put a book out. I haven't had to do it quite yet with Squad because it, like, it hasn't gone to the public or it doesn't even have arcs yet etc. But I remember feeling that way with The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, which was, it was like, "Oh, do you want to see my intellectual dirty underpants?" Like, that's very much how it felt. And with this one, it's like, "Do you want to see my messiest dirty underpants?" Yikes, sorry about that.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: No, I love it. I super love it. You also got to work with Lisa Sterle, who has designed--
MAGGIE: Yes.
JULIA: --my favorite. I, like honestly, I have a bunch of Tarot decks. I think she has my favorite at this point.
MAGGIE: It's fucking cool.
JULIA: Like, the modern witch is so cool.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
JULIA: How was that process? Did you, like, I don't know how graphic novels work for the--
MAGGIE: Totally.
JULIA: --publishing industry. Do you reach out to the artists that you want to work with? Does your, like, agent put people together? Like, is that it? Tell me how that works.
MAGGIE: So, I went the traditional book publishing route. Comics publishing is its own entire thing that I cannot speak to, because that's not what I did. So, I wrote the script for Squad. My agent sold it to HarperCollins, to the Greenwillow imprint there. And then, the editor who bought the rights to it found Lisa and hired her. I wrote the script; Lisa took a look at it. She had, like, a couple of things where she was like, "What do you think about this kind of change?" And I was like, "Yes, this sounds great." And so, there were, like, a couple little edits that happened. But mostly, you know, I wrote my text, sent it off to her, she drew the illustrations, sent it back to me and we would kind of like check and make, you know, little changes as things were necessary. And it's way more fucking fun than working on a novel I'll be honest, because there's, like, someone else involved. So, you're not just, like, sitting alone in your room with your hand in your pants being like, "Does this make sense?" Like, what else is there? Which as a very social person, I really enjoyed. I think it's even more that way if you write traditional comics, because you do reach out, I think, on your own and work with an artist. And there's a lot more development of ideas together as opposed to this sort of, like, puzzle pieces fitting together a thing that Lisa and I got to do, but her illustrations, fuckin whipass. They are so good. I'm so excited. I'm such a color nerd. I studied art when I was in college, and I'm very bad at it but I still appreciate good art when I see it. And one of the things that I love that she did throughout it is that the colors change. The whole palette sort of matches the mood of the story.
AMANDA: Cool.
MAGGIE: And so, there's this, like, beautiful progression through palettes that is like its own secret language of the story that I, like, just geek out for so hard and love so much. And I hope other people feel that kind of, like, numby art feels that you get in your stomach when you look at something you're like, "Yeah, that's fucking made well," that's what Lisa did there.
JULIA: No, I love that. I love that you, like, get to write something and then you get to see it physically, like, emerge in front of you and, like, see the images that you had in your head all of a sudden on-page. That sounds incredible. I wanna do it now.
MAGGIE: Amazing. It's amazing. It's the fucking best. Every time I've gotten to work with an illustrator is just like magic and so cool. So, anyway, if you have any illustrators in your life, like, give them a hug. They're doing, they're doing the work.
JULIA: The Lord's work.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: It is pretty magical when somebody, like, puts on paper a thing that I just imperfectly expressed with, like, my, my flesh form, that like, I, I can't give them a USB from my brain, you know, right into theirs. But when, when they get it, I'm just like, "Holy shit. Like, yes, that's exactly what it is."
MAGGIE: Yeah, yeah. There's a few, it's funny with illustrations. I feel like it goes both ways where, like, it's so magic when you look at something and you're like, "That's exactly the way I imagined it." Like, oh my god, did you get a USB from my brain? Like, perfect. And then, there are the ones where you look at it and you're like, "That is so much better than anything I could possibly imagine."
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
MAGGIE: And both are, like, these beautiful, magical moments that made me so grateful for these professional illustrators who are just so wildly talented. I, I genuinely don't understand how their, their brains work.
JULIA: No, it's, it's incredible. And like I'll be honest, I saw separate tweets from both you and Lisa and it, like, took my brain like a minute to kind of put it together and be like, "Oh, no. They're, they're working on something together. Oh, no. It's gonna be so good. I don't know anything about it, but it's gonna be great." So, that was, I'm sure our audience will also share that excitement once they pick up the book.
MAGGIE: Oh, I hope so.
JULIA: I don't doubt it. I feel like it is perfectly up just our, our listeners' alley because it's got, like, creepiness. It's got coolness. It's got teens. It's got werewolves. There's murder and, you know, it's gonna be great. People are gonna love it.
AMANDA: And when this episode comes out, Squad will be available, that people can get it in bookstores.
MAGGIE: Yes.
AMANDA: We're recording this in April and I hope that this is. I don't want to be rude and say I hope this is the most fun interview you have about this book, but I hope that at the end of your press cycle, you look back and you're like, "That was one of the good ones."
MAGGIE: I'm sure I will.
JULIA: Can you tell people where they can find you and your work on the internet please?
MAGGIE: Yeah, you can catch up with all my work on my website, prettyokmaggie.com. You can follow me on Twitter, that's where I hang out an embarrassing amount of the time @emteehall and my books, Also an Octopus, The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, and Squad can be purchased from any independent bookstore near you.
JULIA: Yep, and we'll have a link to all of those in our bookshop.org website
MAGGIE: Yeah.
AMANDA: Hooray. Well, thank you again Maggie. I can't wait to read Squad and everybody remember;
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcriptionist: John Matthew Sarong
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil