Episode 67: Maya Creation Story

This week, we break down the Maya creation story, as told by the Popol Vuh and learn that actually, the fourth time's the charm. Amanda asks the important questions, like why did the gods create humans, and would you still love her if half her skin was gone? Julia has an existential crisis about babies and marriage, and tries to come up with some ideas for monkey sociology.

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Transcript

AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 67: Mayan Creation Story.

JS: Yeah, boy.

AM: I know.

JS: People have been asking for the Central America and South American myths.

AM: Yeah, probably more than any other.

JS: I wanted to come through for y'all.

AM: Yes.

JS: I wanted to come through.

AM: I am very, very excited to share this with you guys. But you know what, Jules? I'm also excited to just give some shine to the people who help us make the show happen every single week.

JS: Yeah.

AM: So, thank you so much to our supporting producer level patrons; to Neal, Philip, Julie, Sara, Kristina, Josh, Eeyore, Maria, Cammie, Lindsey, Ryan, Shelby, Lin, Mercedes, Phil, Catherine, and Debra.

JS: Y'all are great. We would totally let you see things. Is – that's a – they all – they all understand.

AM: Y'all understand. And --

JS: I feel like, every time I do that, it's a really, really big one. And then I just have to be like, “Y'all understand. You'll get it.”

AM: It's like the Harry Potter chapter titles where the, the chapter title almost always in little sketch. You see it and you're like, “I don't know what that means.” And then, at the end of the chapter, pros flip back to the beginning of the chapter. And you look at and you're like, “Oh, that's what they meant.”

JS: You’re like, “Aha! That – that does make sense. The boy who lived. Now, I know who the boy who lived is.

AM: That's the troll. That's the snitch. That's the veil. Oh, no.

JS: Oh, no. It is spoilers for Mike.

AM: If you haven’t been listening to Potterless Podcast, Julia was on recently to discuss Order of the Phoenix. And, like, honestly, Julia, I, I know now how people feel when they listen to Spirits, because I'm just like, “Damn. She's so smart. Damn. That’s like a reference. Like, oh, my god.” Like, honestly, I love that book a lot. And it made me see things that I haven't seen before. And I love your appearances on our podcasts and others.

JS: Aww. I'm super flattered. I'm legit blush – blushing. You can legit see it.

AM: Yes. And she has a very cute bee printed collared shirt on. And it’s adorable.

JS: I wore it because it’s your birthday while we're recording this.

AM: Hey.

JS: And you love the bees.

AM: You know who else loves bees or you know what I love as much as I love bees?

JS: Our legend level Patrons.

AM: Our legend level patrons; Sandra, AshleyMarie, Buggy, LeeAnn, Ashley, Shannon, and Cassie.

JS: Y'all are great. We hope that you find all of the cute bee pattern things that you want.

AM: And to look out for your next box of physical stuff, which is coming to you very shortly. And, finally, before we get to the excellent episode this week, we would love to thank our sponsor RXBAR. This is really awesome like no nonsense energy bar. They have exactly what's in it printed on the packaging. They're delish. They're good to have on the go. I have them in my bag all the time, because, between day job, the podcasts, social life, you know, going to museums, like doing things in the city, you sometimes just need a snack on the subway. And the perfect --

JS: Yeah. And a delicious and healthy snack at that.

AM: Exactly. So, if you go to RXBAR.com/spirits, you can enter the promo code, SPIRITS, at checkout for 25 percent off. Stock up for yourself, for your soccer team, for your roller derby league. What else?

JS: I, I want to know all of your roller derby names now.

AM: Oh, my gosh, please.

JS: Tell us. Tell us.

AM: Julia what would your roller derby name be?

JS: It would be Carnage San Diego.

AM: Oh, my god. I think mine would be Hardi Boy with an I.

JS: Is that a wrestling joke?

AM: The Hardy Boys.

JS: Yeah, the Hardy Boys.

AM: No, Julia.

JS: Oh, okay.

AM: The Nancy Drew alternate, lesser, inferior one.

JS: There's also – there's also a wrestling tag team, which are two brothers. And they're called The Hardy Boyz with the Z at the end.

AM: Now, I want – I want to be the Hardi Boy with an I.

JS: Okay.

AM: Adorable. Anyway, without any more distractions, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 67: Mayan Creation Story.

Intro Music

JS: So, Amanda, we've gotten a lot of requests for some Central and South American myths.

AM: Yes.

JS: And I, I should prefaces with – I've mentioned it a couple times on our live streams and our Instagram live stories and that sort of thing. But I've never totally felt comfortable kind of leading a episode on that just because I understand that you and I, as, as white folks, probably shouldn't be talking about that because of just the history of colonialism and just shittiness that white people did.

AM: Yeah, white narratives erasing native narratives, especially, you know, cultures that are living and evolving and, you know, dynamic.

JS: Yeah, absolutely. And, in this situation though, I was looking up different sources and stuff like that and found a source that is a legitimate source from the Mayan people. And I thought, “Okay. I feel – I did a lot of research.” And I felt comfortable enough that I figured, “Hey, Amanda, why don't I tell you the creation story of the Mayan people?”

AM: I love that so much. I can't wait. And I would also like to extend the invitation to listeners to send us recommendations --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- for scholars, for friends, for relatives, people, you know, that talk about Central and South American myths. It can be someone's aunt. It can be, you know, a professor you have. It can be you if you grew up in a – in a culture that has something to do with this. But we would always love to talk to people who have firsthand experience.

JS: Maybe we can do a voicemail episode on that or something like that. That could be interesting.

AM: Yeah, send us the emails.

JS: Yeah.

AM: If you are – if you are a native, if you are a Central or South American indigenous to any place, we would love to kind of group, you know, voicemails together to have you teach us.

JS: Yes.

AM: And that will be dope.

JS: Because we do have so much to learn.

AM: We do.

JS: We do portray --

AM: That’s why we do this.

JS: We portray ourselves as “experts” or, at least, I do. But I have so much to learn still. So --

AM: Yeah, you're – we are experts at learning. And we love to invite you to learn along with us. But, you know, we are not always the people that should be talking.

JS: Yeah, that is true. That being said, I'm gonna talk about it for a little bit. And people can correct me. I am open to the idea that I don't know everything about this topic. But I think it's really interesting. And I figured a brief introduction is in order.

AM: Let's do it.

JS: All right. The story of the creation of the world for the Mayan people is told by the Popol Vuh. This is a cultural narrative that recounts the mythology and history of the K’iche’ People, which is one of the indigenous peoples that made up the Mayan civilization.

AM: Mhmm.

JS: So, this group is from what is now modern day Guatemala.

AM: Awesome.

JS: Yeah. So, their name actually means “many trees,” which I think is kind of beautiful.

AM: Hmm. Yeah, quite forested I assume.

JS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

AM: And that's just like that idea of like, you know, tribal people, group of people as like a – like a close-knit cluster of trees. You know, it's – it's sweet.

JS: Yeah. And, when you – when you get to a certain part in this creation myth, you'll kind of see why that – that is sort of an inspiration.

AM: Motifs. My favorite.

JS: Yes, motifs. Mhmm. Mhmm. So, the Popol Vuh was written before the Spanish conquest of Guatemala and was originally preserved through oral tradition, and was first officially written down in 1550.

AM: Cool.

JS: The name means “Book of Community” or “Book of the People.” And it is an extremely important cultural document since early accounts of Mesoamerican mythologies were not preserved or either were purged by the Spanish Conquistadors.

AM: Yes, part of colonialism is erasing and  delegitimizing local culture to make the culture of the Conqueror the only – it’s state sanctioned one available.

JS: Yeah. So, in my notes, it says, “So, fuck those dudes.”

AM: Fuck those dudes.

JS: Yeah. But I want to specify that, like a lot of texts like this, K’iche’ people don't use the term mythology for what the Popol Vuh recounts. This is, according to the Maya, the history of their people.

AM: Yes.

JS: So, keeping that in mind going into the story.

AM: Awesome.

JS: So, when it comes to the Mayan narrative, the origin of many natural and cultural phenomena is told with the moral aim of defining the ritual relationship between mankind and the environment.

AM: Makes a lot of sense.

JS: Yeah, of course.

AM: Yeah.

JS: So, when I say that, I mean, “Hey, when we're telling these stories, it explains what – like, it puts into perspective what the human beings role in the environment, and in the world, and in the sky is. You know that mean?

AM: Exactly. Like, I mean – and isn't that what we asked when we turn to stories?

JS: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

AM: It’s, “Who am I and what is my place here?”

JS: Yes. And, also, why is the sun rising? Why did the seas move that the way they do?

AM: Yeah.

JS: That sort of thing.

AM: Exactly.

JS: So, mythology has always been about explaining the world around you. So, the, the Maya do a really interesting job in portraying that.

AM: Hmm. Can’t wait.

JS: So, what we'll see is an explanation for the origins of the heavenly bodies, the mountains, weather, animals, corns, diseases, and even societal inventions.

AM: I love all those things.

JS: I know. All those things are so good.

AM: So stoked.

JS: We also talked about that a lot in the Inanna episode when we’re talking about the myth.

AM: We did.

JS: But, first, we start with the creation of the world as described with the Popol Vuh and also the end of it.

AM: End of the world.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Oh, no.

JS: So, --

AM: Are we gonna get into the whole prophecy situation?

JS: Nope. We're not gonna talk about that.

AM: Okay.

JS: That’s a little bit too complicated for what we will be talking about today.

AM: All right.

JS: First, the Earth was created by the wind of the sea and sky. The Book of Chilam Balam of Chuma – Chumayel relates the collapse of the sky and deluge followed by the raising of the sky and the erection of the five World Trees. So, it starts with the world being created by the wind of the sea and sky. And then it relates the collapse of the sky into a deluge and that's how the world ends.

AM: Of ring?

JS: Yeah.

AM: Or like everything?

JS: Of everything.

AM: Sky breaking and everything falls down. Goodbye.

JS: Everything falls apart. And then the sky is risen again when these five World Trees grow.

AM: That's awesome. And that's a way more kind of like naturalistic version of something like Ragnarok that we discussed in our Norse two-parter --

JS: Yep.

AM: -- where like the, the Earth has a cycle and a life and a death just like everybody else does.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, and that's pretty cool. I like the idea of just like water and sky existing before land, you know.

JS: Yeah, I do – I do too. And, if we're – we're gonna talk a lot about Western creation myths versus these non-Western creation myths. So --

AM: Western here defined as European and the places that Europeans conquered.

JS: Yes. Yes. What are us white people would call Western?

AM: Yes.

JS: Yes. But we'll – we'll talk a lot about the similarities but also the major differences between the two.

AM: Sure.

JS: But, much like this story, the creation of the world starts with just the waters above and below.

AM: Yeah.

JS: And then the separation in which other things can inhabit the existence.

AM: And, you know, I, I have this image. You know, we've said mentioned before the Julia and I grew up on a – on a town sort of right near the beach. And, so, being able to like walk out there, drive out there, whatever and kind of take personal time just looking out at the water.

JS: Yeah.

AM: You know, when you stand on the shore with, like, the waves at your feet and look out and all you see is sky and water.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Like, doesn't that feel like the beginning or the end of something, right?

JS: It does. Absolutely.

AM: Like, land is behind you. You don't see your own feet. You know, you don't see the, the sand beneath you. And, instead, you just look out and it feels primordial. And, so, to have a creation myth that so vividly like brings up that image of the forces of sea and sky meeting to kind of make something at the horizon point, like, that looks just like a point from which, you know, land can burse for the first time.

JS: Right. It feels like all of existence is stretched out in front of you when you stand like that.

AM: Yeah. Or all of potentiality, you know.

JS: Yes, I like that. From there, the creator gods attempt to create beings that have hearts and minds that could “keep the days” or in other words could invoke worship and remember the gods. But the interesting part of the story and the main story that we're going to be telling in this is the fact that it takes four tries to get it right.

AM: Ooh.

JS: Yeah.

AM: I love a myth where people try and fail and then get it right.

JS: Yeah. So, actually, I want to just take a moment to talk about how so many early mythologies have very human like anthropomorphic gods.

AM: Yes.

JS: So, like, you and I being raised in the Catholic Church, there are so many depictions of the Christian God as omniscient, omnipresent, and all powerful.

AM: Yes.

JS: But there's actually a really interesting insight to early Judaism. When you read the Bible, in certain parts of Genesis, God is able to smell things. God cannot locate Adam and Eve in the garden. That sort of thing.

AM: Yeah, walking among the creation, right?

JS: He very much has a human interaction or human-like interaction and is, is seen as very anthropomorphized.

AM: Yeah, like a lived experience.

JS: Yeah. Like, it says in the Bible, “God enjoyed the smell of like cooked meat.” Like, that's a – that's a thing that it said about God because he's down there smelling things. He's not just smelling all things at once. He's smelling the cooked meat that is being offered to him.

AM: Yeah. And, and, for – you know, as like tactile as Catholic worship can be, you know, there's a lot of like rising, standing, kneeling, sitting, smelling incense, you know, tasting bread and wine and things like that, the idea of God is so far removed. Like, we are very much not of the Protestant tradition that God is a personal and personally experienced thing.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, and, for us, it's very much like through ritual. You know, we can communicate with and get a sense of God.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, so, you know, having that be my standard that I was raised in, you know, any, any kind of story or depiction or even like Westworld, you know, where you have Anthony Hopkins like walking through world that he put together.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And like touching the flowers and tasting the food.

JS: I love that. That's a really good comparison. Good job.

AM: Oh, thank you. Thank you. But it just like – it just – it's so incredible to imagine that like – you know, it just – it boggles the mind. Like, it shouldn't be. You know, that, that the creator of a realm can like walk among the realm. It just sort of defies logic. And it's really dope.

JS: Right. So, my, my question is – and I guess we can answer it at the end of the story. Why did early humans prefer the idea that gods are like us? But, also, I am curious as to why you think many religions moved away from the anthropomorphic God, the God like us?

AM: Yeah. I mean my, my hypothesis – if we're going to be really scientific about this, my hypothesis is that, as human beings started to take power and be proxies for Gods on Earth, the idea of God as a peer was a threat. And, so, being able to abstract your ruling authority. And, so, they, you know, have powers to make for us to understand in a realm that we haven't lived in in a way that they're, you know, experience and actions are either mediated through the ruler or just kind of sporadic. Like, locust threat or plaque or stuff like that. That's – that's my kind of hypothesis. It’s like human beings started to take on --

JS: More authority.

AM: -- offices and like rules that had previously been delegated to the divine.

JS: Interesting. So, the argument being that, if God becomes all powerful, he has more authority.

AM: Yeah. And, if, if God is unknowable and inscrutable and you have to access him through ritual and institutions, those are all things that human beings can control.

JS: Interesting.

AM: Yeah.

JS: I like that.

AM: Yeah. We talked on the Inanna episode about that kind of, like, divine gift of self-rule that Inanna gave, you know, to her people.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, also, that, like, John Locke promises, you know, when he kind --

JS: Yeah. Yeah.

AM: -- of talks about how, you know, self-rule is, is divine. And, even that, you know, that is kind of more optimistic way to say, you know, we don’t need God to be like a peer. We can do that for ourselves. And, you know, kind of export to and outsource the, the mystical and stuff we don't understand to, to some other thing that is not like us, and that can solve problems we can't solve, and give answers that we can't give. So, that's my guess.

JS: I like it. And we'll talk a little bit more about this at the end of the episode.

AM: Right.

JS: But let's, let's get to the story.

AM: I’m a little bit wine drunk.

JS: Let gets to those temps.

AM: And I'm ready for the story.

JS: I know you are. I love it. So, the first effort that the gods do is create animals and living creatures as well as birds and flying life forms.

AM: Adorable. I love this text on me.

JS: But, because animals cannot talk, they were unable to worship the gods in the way that the gods wanted.

AM: Okay. That's a self-invented problem, gods. That a self-invented problem.

JS: Well, a lot of the problems here are self-invented. You'll see.

AM: I mean, definitionally, I guess they invented all things including problems.

JS: Exactly. Okay. I guess they didn’t. And, so, the gods consider their first effort a failure, because the animals can't worship them.

AM: So, what happened to the animals?

JS: Seeing that the animals we’re not gonna make the cut for their worship, they started the human experiment.

AM: Oh, no.

JS: The first thing they did was create humans from Earth and mud in order to make their bodies.

AM: Hmm. Those golem vibes though.

JS: Yes. Also, in certain stories in Genesis, God kneels onto the ground and creates Adam out of the Earth.

AM: Clay. Right. Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Then Eve from the rib, which is not --

JS: Not great.

AM: -- a way to, to do sociology in the 21st century.

JS: Only one of the stories though.

AM: Yeah.

JS: There's a story where she just snapped surfing his fingers and she's there.

AM: There is.

JS: That's good. But the problem with Earth and mud is that, each time that they tried to animate the humans, their bodies would fail, simply dissolving and disintegrating and were unable to stay together.

AM: Aww.

JS: It's kind of sad.

AM: That is sad, but also sort of like – I've been there too. Like, I have tried to make little, you know, figures that stand up out of straws. And then this straw gets wet and then it falls over. You know, like, it's – it's such a like wonderful kind of image of, like, divine forces playing in a – in a new realm – by the new realms rules, you know. Like, if you can summon land out of water and sky and gravity comes into effect, right, and like all the other forces.

JS: Yeah. You're like, “Oh, fuck, this human doesn’t work anymore.”  

AM: Yeah.

JS: I broke it.

AM: It makes me laugh. I like it.

JS: Jake and I have been binge watching Gotham lately.

AM: Yeah.

JS: Because we're big comic book nerds.

AM: You are. Confirmed.

JS: But they just introduced the character with Mr. Freeze.

AM: Yes.

JS: Do you know anything about Mr. Freeze?

AM: I know that, in The Flash, he's played by the Prison Break guy.

JS: That's Captain Cold.

AM: Okay.

JS: Mhmm. Mr. Freeze – so, Mr. Freeze, in the films that you might know, is played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. The backstory for Mr. Freeze was invented like in 1994 I want to say from the Batman animated series.

AM: Mhmm.

JS: And it's actually one of the, like, few animated shorts like that that won an Emmy. Like, it's a beautiful storytelling. But, basically, Mr. Freeze is a scientist, who his wife is dying slowly of, like, a degenerative disease.

AM: Oh, shit.

JS: So, his goal is to freeze her so that he can find the cure.

AM: Got it.

JS: And then bring her back to life and cure her. On Gotham, he's about to do that. Until she like switches out the formula so that her body dissolves instead of freezing the way it's supposed to.

AM: She wanted to go.

JS: Yeah, she wanted to go.

AM: Yeah.

JS: So, I've been thinking a lot about that when we're talking about this story.

AM: Wow. Jules, very dark.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Thank you for that image.

JS: You're welcome. Always a pleasure. So, the gods failed. And, so, they next chose to incorporate wood into the bodies of the human. So, it's wood --

AM: Yes.

JS: -- and also mud and Earth.

AM: We are so far following the development of human dwellings as well.

JS: Yes. So, the gods finally succeed and the first man is created.

AM: Ooh.

JS: So, here's a great quote actually from the Popol Vuh for this moment.

AM: Okay.

JS: They came into being. They multiplied. They had daughters. They had sons. These mannequins, wood carvings. But there was nothing in their hearts and nothing in their minds. No memory of their mason and builder. They just went and walked wherever they wanted. Now, they did not remember the heart of the sky.

AM: Oh man.

JS: Yeah.

AM: What language. That’s beautiful.

JS: It's really, really pretty.

AM: And the translation too.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Like, I can't imagine the – that moment in an oral storytelling tradition.

JS: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

AM: You know, like, “Uh.”

JS: No. And I really – I like the idea of they're just these beings that are walking around. And I love the line, “They had no memory of their mason and builder.”

AM: That absolutely stood out to me not just because my family are masons and builders.

JS: I knew that would --

AM: Yeah. Like, it really – oh, man, I love that so much. And I'm not somebody who believes in God. But I imagine and I have read things that talk about the unenlightened, right, or like the people who haven't seen the truth, or who haven't accepted God, or who haven't, you know, in Westworld, realize that it's all a --

JS: There’s so many Westworld references in this story.

AM: Wow. This is just – I'm just leaning in. I'm just leaning in. Who haven't realized that it's all a game. That that is a kind of simulation of reality. And --

JS: Well, in Gotham, nope.

AM: But, point being, those people are also walking around without knowledge of their mason and builder.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Like for those – those kinds of perspectives. And it is so kind of beautiful to imagine early humanity as like achieving that sort of actualization, you know, and like perspective.

JS: Yeah. I like that a lot.

AM: Mayans got it right.

JS: Yeah. So, even though the gods had successfully created a living thing, they were not capable of worshiping the gods in the way that the gods wanted.

AM: Sure. I mean not under – maybe not understanding or knowing about or being able to conceive of --

JS: Right.

AM: -- the kind of larger context.

JS: Because the gods were so discontent with their creation, they destroyed humanity in a great flood.

AM: Okay.

JS: Sounds familiar.

AM: Lots of floods, man.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Lots of – you know, one of those things – questions that you ask God if God actually exists. What's with the floods, man? Was there one?

JS: What’s with the flood?

AM: Was there many? Was it a story? Huh? Come on.

JS: I think something – I think something had to have happened, you know. Because like --

AM: I mean everybody experiences it. Great, you know.

JS: Right.

AM: Once – you know, you're bound – no matter where you live, there’s going to be a great flood at some point, but not like a great, great flood.

JS: Right.

AM: Right. Not like super tsunami.

JS: That’s – that’s why I have to assume that --

AM: I know.

JS: -- something happened.

AM: I know. And, like, I surely would be able to tell the geology. Like, we know when Ice Age just happened. Have giant floods, but maybe that is an Ice Age. And people that live long enough to see it become icy – just watery.

JS: Maybe.

AM: Archaeologists, geologists.

JS: Get at us.

AM: Get at us.

JS: So, another interesting part of this story in the Popol Vuh is the fact that monkeys survived as the only descendants of the third effort to create man.

AM: Makes so much sense.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Because they are very close to us.

JS: Yes. But they're not capable of worship. So --

AM: I mean arguably.

JS: And not we know at least.

AM: Yeah.

JS: And I don't study monkey sociology. So, I don't know.

AM: Yeah. I wonder. Man, I wonder all the time what animals were thinking. Anyway.

JS: Who’s that --

AM: This is the Amanda Corner.

JS: Who’s that woman who lived with the gorillas for so long?

AM: Jane Goodall?

JS: Yeah.

AM: Yeah.

JS: I envy her. I had a book on her that I was like just super into.

AM: I remember that. And I am sure that either you bought that or I bought the same book for my brother, Austin, when he was first learning to read. He didn't really care for reading. But that was a book that he was really into. Aww.

JS: She was cool.

AM: She was cool.

JS: I liked her a lot. Now, I'll get to the rest of the story, Amanda. But, first, I need a refill. And this mezcal is not gonna fill itself.

Midroll Music

AM: This week, we are sponsored by RXBAR. Julia, what are RXBARs?

JS: RXBARs are a whole food protein bar. So, what does that mean? That means that their bars are made with 100 percent whole ingredients. They are transparent and upfront with their customers. And they label all of their core ingredients; egg whites, dates, and nuts on the front of the package and the ingredients that make up the texture and taste on the back. So, like 100 percent real cacao, coconut, et cetera. Like all these really delicious and pure and cool foods.

AM: Yeah, they're really well designed. The front is just like a pretty color that sort of indicates the flavor; like raspberry, blueberry, maple, et cetera. And then they list what's on it. And, as a former vegan who found it really, really hard to, you know, buy things in stores because you look on the back and it's like any of these just bizarre ingredients could potentially be an animal product, seeing something that's like, “Hey, hello. Like, we are eggs and dates.” I'm like, “Oh, thank god, Thank you so much.”

JS: Good to know. Good to know.

AM: And it turns out that eating just like actual real food tastes very good.

JS: Yeah.

AM: So, like, you can taste the fruit or the spices. Like, there's one the sea salt in it. And you know that I love me some sea salt.

JS: The maple sea salt.

AM: Mhmm. It’s so good.

JS: That actually would go really well with the mezcal we’re drinking.

AM: That's true. Yeah. And I think maybe something fruity as well like a raspberry or blueberry --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- depending on if you mix the mezcal with something or maybe even the coconut.

JS: The coconut would be good.

AM: Yeah, kind of like fruit pairing. But, you know, in addition to eating them with your BFF while recording podcasts, they're also great if you're on a go, if you're in the office. I have one on my bag all the time. And I just restock it when I get home if I've eaten it during the day. Whether I'm like running between appointments or I have meetings and I have to like, you know, jump on the subway and, and just eat something in the middle. I try to eat actual, you know, meals when I can.

JS: Yeah.

AM: But, listen, if you're in a pinch, sometimes, you just need one.

JS: Right. Sometimes, you just want to crunch down on one right before you get to the gym or something like that. I always go to the gym before I eat dinner.

AM: Yeah.

JS: So, it's always nice to have something in my stomach for my, you know, body to burn before my workout. So, these are perfect for that. I use it almost every day.

AM: Exactly. And I hear that egg white protein is actually like easy for your body to absorb.

JS: Oh, yeah.

AM: So, you won't get like tummy troubles, you know, if you're on the go and need something real quick.

JS: You, you know all about tummy troubles.

AM: I do. I do. Griffin McElroy and I just live that IBS life.

JS: I'm so sorry.

AM: You know, we're here for it. But, if you want to join our cool, cool club of RXBAR having ladies on the go --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- you can get them at rxbar.com/Spirits and enter the promo code, Spirits, at checkout. These are in stores various places, but you can get a quarter off – 25 percent off. You can stock up, put a box in your car, put a box in your house, you know, give it to, like I said earlier, your roller derby team, your decathlon team. Decathlon scares me. The Winter Olympics just ended.

JS: Yeah.

AM: I’m – I'm just – I'm worrying a little bit.

JS: Your figure skating team.

AM: Your figure skating team. That also scares me though, because like, when they make their little landings, I feel like they're gonna, uh, just fall over. I'm scared.

JS: Did you watch the men's figure skating by the way?

AM: Yeah.

JS: Dang.

AM: It's too gay for me to miss.

JS: It's so good.

AM: It’s so good.

JS: Oh, man.

AM: But, anyway, RXBARs are available at rxbar.com/Spirits. And then that code is Spirits for 25 percent off. Make sure you use it so that they know that you came from us.

JS: Yeah. Have some snacks.

AM: And, now, snacks on hand, mezcal refilled, let's get back to the show.

JS: So, the fourth and final effort is where things get interesting. So, the gods take corn.

AM: Yeah.

JS: And mix it with water to create the flesh of humans. But, like any good story, there was another problem. I'll quote again from the Popol Vuh for this. This time, the being shaped by the gods are everything that they hoped for and more. Not only do the first four men pray to their makers, but they have perfect vision and, therefore, perfect knowledge.

AM: So, why do they have to pray?

JS: Exactly. So, there's the problem.

AM: Whoa.

JS: The gods wanted to create beings that would worship them, but not something that would have the ability to potentially become like the gods themselves.

AM: Oh, this – I mean, just casually hitting at the real crux of humanity here, mind and creation myth.

JS: Yeah. So, they devise two ways of limiting their abilities to just worship.

AM: Okay.

JS: They put fog in the human’s eyes taking away their perfect vision and, therefore, knowledge.

AM: Yep.

JS: They also gave the first four men a wife each. And these couples would lead to the creation of the key chain lineages.

AM: Hmm. And, so, how did that alter their perfect knowledge?

JS: They were just distracted.

AM: Okay.

JS: Because they had other humans to interact with and stuff and then had babies and children and what not.

AM: And life happens.

JS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, life happens.

AM: Huh.

JS: It's like, you know, when, when you get married, you know, life is pretty, pretty basic. This same idea basically is when you're dating someone,. And then you have a baby. And then everything changes.

AM: That's what I hear.

JS: That's what I hear too. And you just start worshiping the gods and don't become your full potential.

AM: You go – yeah. I mean, huh, I read an article yesterday about like women's career ambitions changing after marrying and children. And, like, the gender labor --

JS: That terrifies me.

AM: -- you know, that, that necessitates having a family. Yeah. Anyway, everything else is new again.

JS: We’re like hyperventilating over here. It’s fine. It’s fine.

AM: Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

JS: I feel like I’m making it seem like I'm gonna have a baby. I'm not having a baby anytime soon.

AM: You’re getting married at some point.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Sometime.

JS: Yeah. Yeah.

AM: Yeah. Actually, we had a listener emailed us recently to say that she's a little bit disappointed we were talking about saggy boobs in I think the Mami Wata episode. And then we were like, “Oh, man, saggy boobs, I don't know.” And, like, to be clear, boobs of all kinds are incredible.

JS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

AM: I'm just Looking forward to my future and aging. And that's one part of it. And aging terrifies me.

JS: Yes.

AM: Not like the aged body, but the fact that I'm going to die one day.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, like, that is what I mean when I say like, “Huh.”

JS: Yeah. No, I agree with that. Actually, yesterday – yesterday was Valentine's Day. And Jake and I were --

AM: It was at the time of recording.

JS: Yes. And Jake and I were like getting ready for bed. And, all of a sudden, I start clawing through my hair and pulling out gray hairs. And Jake is like, “What are you doing?” I'm like, “I'm pulling out the gray hairs.” He's like, “They're not even there.” I’m like, “I can see them. They're physically here.” He's like, “You're fine. It's okay.”

AM: Yeah, I'm a fan of asking hypotheticals like, you know --

JS: Will you love me if I have gray hair?

AM: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Or like would you love me if, if like, half my skin was gone?

JS: That’s just a weird thought. Just, just half, Amanda?

AM: Yeah.

JS: Like a weird attack on a Titan person.

AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, when we date if I have just transfigured into a pancake? Would we date if I was transfigured into one of those Aquaman in Season II of Buffy? The swim team boys, they turned into like mer – like, like creature from that, that fish movie.

JS: Creature from the Black Lagoon?

AM: No, the other – the new one.

JS: The, the – it's the same fucking creature but okay.

AM: Well, yeah. Yeah

JS: Yeah. Yeah. Shape of Water.

AM: Shape of Water. I like that movie.

JS: Yes.

AM: But, yeah, like, like, like, would we date if I was that creature? Like, I don’t know. Maybe.

JS: I would still be your friend if you were that creature.

AM: Thank you. Thank you. Anyway, if you ask enough hypothetical questions, then people will love you forever.

JS: Yeah, that’s true. Or, at least, they'll agree to until it actually happens. Love.

AM: At least we know that our love is unconditional.

JS: I know, baby.

AM: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: I know. Let’s get philosophical because that's the end of the story.

AM: Oh, please.

JS: So, a couple of things that I like about the story and would like to discuss about it --

AM: Yeah.

JS: What does it say about a civilization that the gods had to experiment so much to create human beings? Do – does that mean that human beings are more valued because it took so many tries to get them just right? Or does it put human beings in sort of a lower light because they're – they're this imperfect process? In your opinion.

AM: Yeah. I mean my first instinct was to feel like humanity's a little bit cheapened, because we are like intentionally handicapped by the gods.

JS: Yes, I agree with that.

AM: Because, you know, we like to imagine that we are kind of flawed creatures, like, striving for more and striving for, like, some hypothetical, you know, ideal. I think that that might be a kind of Christian belief. Like, you're born with the original sin. And --

JS: I mentioned that in my notes.

AM: Excellent. And, and not that like – like, there is an ideal that you could achieve, but, instead, humanity, you know, is, is tragically flawed and you have to, like, redeem to, you know, make – to, like, make your most self possible. And I just like – like, the narrative that, like, we are born with what we have and we can try, despite ourselves, to transcend those parts, to me, is really motivating.

JS: Yeah.

AM: But, on the other hand, to learn that, like, I am like version 2.0 of a thing that was too good. And --

JS: 4.0.

AM: Yeah, exactly. 4.0 and 3.0 is actually too good. And I can't be good enough to be a peer with that that created me. But, instead, I am like – it's like playing with a laser with a cat.

JS: Yes.

AM: You know, like --

JS: Or like pretending to throw a ball for a dog but not actually throwing it.

AM: Right. And, and I don't know. Like, like, there's no way for the creature to win. Like, there's – there's no way for me to win if I was created as a thing that definitionally can't be on par with the gods. And, now, I’m realizing that makes me sound like I want to win at life, which I don't. I just want to like be here and have a pretty good time and make a good impact on the world. But, yeah, that was my first reaction at least.

JS: Well, that's not making you seem like you want to win at life. That's making you seem like you want humanity as a whole to get better, to get –AM: Yeah, its potential.

JS: -- to elevate itself.

AM: Right, exactly. But, if we are created not to – not to be the highest possible, like, elevation of stuff, then, like – I don’t know – that’s – that's a little bit demoralizing.

JS: Well, okay, here's a counterpoint that just from the way I see it. I think that we have the potential to be those things.

AM: Sure.

JS: That, if we, you know – and the gods – you know, the gods are fickle in a lot of the mythology that we talked about.

AM: Yeah.

JS: The gods could decide, “Oh, you know what? We actually – we do want the humans to be at our level again.

AM: Literally, they want some playmates.

JS: And they take away our fog and become their equals.

AM: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: That’s always a possibility. You know what I mean?

AM: That's true. Like, it's – it's – it's been – it's been done. Like --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- 3.0 was there. And we know that there is, at least, the possibility. It's, like, it's a – what, what's her face  in the runway taking off her bracelet? JS: Oh, Carolina.

AM: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: Yeah. It's like Carolina just ascending to her awesome rainbow badass lesbian that she is.

AM: Right. And, so, when I'm viewing as like a hard ceiling of 3.0 could do it but 4.0 never could, you're saying like, “No, there's evidence that there is like another plane of existence that should we, you know, try hard together to advance as possible.”

JS: Yeah. And it's – it's like the glass ceiling. We can break it. There is a ceiling there.

AM: Yeah.

JS: We can get passed it.

AM: Yeah, it's true. And it seems impossible. But, actually, it's just like structural.

JS: Yeah. The gods have set up a structural --

AM: Yeah, handicap.

JS: Yeah. That we, we can potentially overcome. You don't know. You don't know.

AM: Interesting.

JS: Yeah. Isn't that weird?

AM: And I mean there is so much here also about like – I don't know – the tragedy of humanity, right?

JS: Sure.

AM: It’s that, like, we, we know enough to know that it's sad that we die. Like, we know enough to know that we can't be perfect. We know enough to know that, like, when we accept love, that the other person is flawed and there's risk and, like, we're just going to do our best together. And it's like – like that kind of curse of awareness.

JS: Yeah, it's the – it's the allegory of the cave.

AM: Exactly.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Right.

JS: Which, if our listeners don't know the idea of the allegory of the cave, it's about realization. Like a human's ability to realize more and more as more information is granted to them.

AM: Yeah.

JS: I guess we could – we could talk about that or I'll link – I’ll link in the description about the allegory of the cave. But --

AM: Yeah. And, also, it reminds me of a book by CS Lewis who wrote the Narnia Chronicles, or Chronicles of Narnia, but also --

JS: I like the Narnia – Narnia Chronicles, the spin off series.  The reboot.

AM: It’s a TV reboot. Yeah. But, also, wrote a number of really interesting books about Christianity that helped me as a adult who had kind of moved past the Christianity I was raised in but wanted to understand Christianity as, you know, other people experience. And, like, just like what, what that would be like to learn about it for the first time. I read those books and they really, really helped me kind of see things in a new light and, and have a little bit more kind of patience and respect for people who live like that --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- for people who have that belief system as a part of their life.

JS: Yeah.

AM: But, anyway, he has like a really elaborate kind of metaphor for somebody realizing that the world is like bigger and bigger and more complex and more complex. And life is like – you know, like a picture of a person like rising up in a balloon, like, seeing how much smaller the thing that they thought was the whole world is.

JS: Yeah.

AM: It's a really beautiful kind of book involving a bus. Like, like a bus going up into the sky. Anyway, it's really good. And I will include a link in the description.

JS: That's awesome. So, kind of the last thought I want to touch on is the sort of an interesting topic that I'd like to think about. How does the creation myth reflect how we view humanity? So, how does a society's creation myth reflect how they view humanity? So, for example, since we talked about Christianity and Catholicism before, we have the story of the Garden of Eden.

AM: Yeah.

JS: And, because of the misdeeds of Adam and Eve, we know that Christians or really us, Catholics, believe that humans are inherently sinful. We're born with the original sin. So --

AM: And the tendency toward sin.

JS: Right.

AM: And that, through effort, and allegiance, and, you know, right behavior, and the help of institutions and others in society and your family and, you know, whatnot, you can overcome human – like, humanity's default state, which is sinful.

JS: Right.

AM: And you can achieve, you know, perfection.

JS: Right. So, the argument in this situation would be that --

AM: Not perfection. Perfection is God. You can achieve God – God likeness.

JS: Okay. That's – that's a fair correction.

AM: Yeah.

JS: So, my argument in this would be that Christianity believes that human beings are inherently evil. Because we are born with sin, we tend – we tend towards sin. And we have to make an effort in order to be non-sinful to – you know, to act towards godliness.

AM: That varies widely between different kinds of Christianity.

JS: Well – but I'm talking about Catholicism.

AM: We’re talking about the kind that we grew up in specifically, because I mean you could argue that like human beings were born perfect and then the original human being sinned. And, so, that's just like a taint that's cast on all of his descendants.

JS: Right. But, now, all of – all human beings are --

AM: Right. And, so, the question is like, is then the human, as a creation of God, that is a perfect creation.

JS: Yeah.

AM: But, you know, a person messed up. And, now, we are like cast in that shadow. You, you know like --

JS: But are we perfect then because that human being --

AM: Exactly. Right. Right. If the – if the bug was in the mainframe, like, you know, is it perfect?

JS: And that lends itself towards the, the anthropomorphic God like we talked about earlier.

AM: Yeah.

JS: Because , if that – there was a mistake, that this creature wasn't born or wasn't created perfectly.

AM: Yeah.

JS: Then whose fault is that?

AM: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: Yeah, we're even here.

AM: No. And, like, I mean we mentioned in our Jane Eyre episode with Vanessa Zoltan that kind of the question of suffering is where a lot of – it's like that’s – that's where like the rubber meets the road --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- in terms of like talking about faith, because any worldview has to reckon with the fact that there is suffering in the world.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, you know, is any god that could create suffering necessarily evil or neglectful? Right. Or, like, like, there's so many questions that come up with that idea that, you know, can a – can a good thing make evil. And I would say, from a human point of view, a lot of the parables we tell and a lot of the stories that, you know, live on have to do with the kind of tragedy of like everybody doing their best, but together, through ignorance or miscommunication, or greed, or just like fate, or bad luck, bad things come of it. Gift of the Magi, I think, is a good example, which I always see as like the importance of communication in a relationship.

JS: Yeah.

AM: But, also, like, people can do their best and then, like, bad things happen anyway.

JS: Right.

AM: And, so, I don't know. Like, I don't know where that leaves us.

JS: I guess the question next would be, from what I told you about the Mayan Creation story, do the Mayans believe that people are inherently good, that humanity is inherently good or perfect, or that humanity is, you know, bad?

AM: I don't think that's a question for me to answer, you know.

JS: Yeah.

AM: But, like, looking at it from the outside, I love especially that this – that this creation story contains some – something that's not enough, right?

JS: Yeah.

AM: So, the animals, you know, weren't capable of acknowledging worshiping the gods. What was 2.0?

JS: The dirt people.

AM: Right. Not, not to consent up to the elements and disintegrated. Three was too perfect for --

JS: Well, three was wood so that they stopped disintegrating. And then four was perfect humans. And then they just put fog over their eyes.

AM: Oh, I thought – I thought three was imperfect – was too perfect humans and they were like, “Shut that down.” But we, we are the perfect ones that then got sort of as layer added.

JS: Yes.

AM: Okay.

JS: We got – we got – like, we were too perfect so they put a glitch in our system.

AM: Yeah. And I appreciate the clarification. But I love that there is like – that like the, the pendulum swung to both ends of the – of the arc.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And then settled somewhere in the middle.

JS: Like, whoosh.

AM: Exactly. And, so, often – like I talked about this a lot in artistic stuff, like whilst I'll say to you or you'll say to me sometimes, you know, if nobody ever has any kind of like criticism of the stuff we put out into the world, we're probably not trying hard enough.

JS: Right.

AM: Or, if, you know, you never fail at anything you ever do, you probably aren't trying big enough things.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Like, it takes failure to understand where your limits actually are. And, so, that's the thing that I try to embody at work a lot. It’s like, if I never take on a project that I don't know how to do, I'm not learning quickly enough. You know, like, like, I'm not – I'm not stretching myself enough. And, so, to bring it back to the kind of societal level, it's just – it's very cool to think that, like, it's not about some kind of objective, you know, top of the pyramid or like end of the line. Or it's not about like advancing our abilities as far as it can possibly go. Like, there is value to being somewhere in the middle.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, like, whether that means the most entertaining for the gods, right, or the most, like, you know, worship full but nonchallenging to gods, like, I don't – you know, I don't know enough to know how, how those gods are characterized and, obviously, like, what their motivations are. But, as a human being, like – I don't know – I do a lot of work, like, in therapy and in my life to try to accept the fact that, like, flaws and uncertainty and powerlessness is a part of the human experience that we can't eradicate. And, if we did, it will be really boring.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And that is like – that is what makes us human. That's what I love about our stories. That's we love about the, you know, hero's journey or the hero, like, doesn't want to do something is call to action. You know, tries, fails, tries again, and succeeds. Like, that is so, I think, like, coded in our DNA to be so satisfying.

JS: Yeah.

AM: Because we are just self-aware enough to know how inadequate we are, you know, in a lot of ways and, you know, making peace with that. Like, that's the mission of being human.

JS: Right. And I kind of – I like the idea of – there's something comforting about the ideas. We were created for a specific thing.

AM: Yeah.

JS: And we were too good for it.

AM: Yeah.

JS: And then so, so, now, we are – we are exactly where we're supposed to be, doing exactly what we're supposed to be doing.

AM: Yeah. Like, well, if I were perfect, you know, that, that would be wrong.

JS: Yeah.

AM: That wouldn't be what I was here for.

JS: Yeah, it's – it's the – if every pork chop was perfect, we wouldn't have hotdogs.

AM: What?

JS: Yeah.

AM: Is that a saying?

JS: Yes, it is.

AM: No, it's not.

JS: If every pork chop was perfect, we wouldn't have hotdogs.

AM: I do not believe that. I think that's the thing that you experience in your family and no one else has.

JS: You can Google it. It’s a thing.

AM: Listeners, get in touch.

JS: Everyone can fight me on it.

AM: I heard you say that like – and, you know – and, so, I have a tattoo that says, “Love the questions themselves.” A quote from Rilke. And I'm getting another one soon that says, “No feeling is final.” And, so, to me, those are two really kind of complimentary thoughts. The first of which is like periods of uncertainty, and failure, and casting about for like direction and meaning and hope, et cetera. That isn't just like stuff that you fast forward through to get to your real life.

JS: It is still part of your life.

AM: It is still life. And there is still like – you know, even if the feelings in your body aren’t good, they’re still feelings. And that still means that you're here and alive --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- and like living and not, you know, completely devoid of, you know, humanity and living, which to me is how I experienced depression, right?

JS: Right.

AM: It is like – it's like really kind of numb. And, so, to me, it's – it's a reminder that, even in moments where I'm like, “What do I do? There are so many clue,” you know, that's like – that is – that is still life. It's not like a crisis moment that removes me from my life. Like, that is the business of living. Like, that is where we get down to it.

JS: Yeah.

AM: That’s where we’re like in the – in the like mud pit wrestling, you know.

JS: Sure.

AM: And then the, the sentiment that no feeling is final is like that will also end. And, you know, good feelings will, bad feelings will, hope will, despair will.

JS: Yeah.

AM: You know, it's – it's just a question of like I need to trust that the next feeling will come.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And that's --

JS: This too shall pass.

AM: Exactly. Yeah. And then that I will be, you know, equipped to handle it when it does.

JS: Yeah.

AM: It’s just being a little bit trusting in my future self instead of paranoid and fearful and protective.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And I don’t know. Like, to me, that is what's valuable. And that's what's fun. And that’s what I love getting to know other people in life and through stories, you know, is how everybody deals with their particular skills and burdens.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, and, like, that's what art is. It’s like making sense of that impulse.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, so, if we were all so perfect that we needed to – you know, that, that like we were at the same level as the gods.

JS: Right.

AM: You know, presumably the gods are creating the world for a reason. Like, we never talked about that, right?

JS: Yeah.

AM: Like, like, what, what causes the gods to do all of this?

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, in some cases, it's love. And --

JS: To be worshiped.

AM: In some cases, it’s to be worshipped. In some cases, it's – you know, it's not even addressed. But I think that the sort of implication there is, like, if you achieve perfection, there's nothing else to fix in yourself or in the world.

JS: Yeah.

AM: You have to make a little microcosm and kind of, you know, give that gift unto others and kind of see how they deal with slightly different circumstances than your own. And, you know, as much as I admire Anthony Hopkins, all white linen suit --

JS: Woot. Woot.

AM: -- I, I think I'm happy to be, you know, a chess piece in someone else's chessboard.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And to, you know, tell my own stories in art, but I don't – I don't want to achieve perfection, you know. Like --

JS: Yeah, sometimes, you don't have to be the most significant person in the room. And that's okay.

AM: I super don't. I want to like stand on the side with a glass of punch --

JS: Yeah.

AM: -- shit talking with you.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And like admiring everybody else.

JS: Hell yeah.

AM: And just be looking at their stories. I mean, like, goddamn, everybody, there's a little universe. And I will never know what it's like inside their head, but I can damn well try.

JS: Damn right. Damn right. I think – I think that's all we can say on this topic at the moment.

AM: Yeah. And the next time you're at a dance, and you're looking at everybody there, and you're thinking about the fact that, like, each person is having a lived human experience that's as vibrant as your own, and then you're never ever going to be able to plug into that matrix and experience their life.

JS: Yeah.

AM: And, like, holy fuck, there are a billion of us, remember --

JS: To stay creepy.

AM: And stay cool.

Outro Music

AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.

JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website, spiritspodcast.com.

AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, director’s commentaries, and patron-only live streams.

JS: And, hey, if you liked the show, please share us with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.

AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.

Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo

Editor: Krizia Casil