Episode 278: Mami Wata and The Little Mermaid (with Natasha Bowen)
/We’re joined by author Natasha Bowen, who spins us the tale of her love of mermaids, the darker fairy tales of her youth, and connecting to the West African mermaids of her family.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of drowning, slavery, death, grief, and racism.
Guest
Natasha Bowen is a New York Times bestselling author, a teacher, and a mother of three children. She is of Nigerian and Welsh descent and lives in Cambridge, England, where she grew up. Natasha studied English and creative writing at Bath Spa University before moving to East London, where she taught for nearly ten years. Skin of the Sea is her debut novel and the start of an epic series born out of her passion for mermaids and African history. Natasha is obsessed with Japanese and German stationery and spends stupid amounts on notebooks, which she then features on her secret Instagram. When she's not writing, she's reading, watched over carefully by Milk and Honey, her cat and dog. Follow her on Twitter at @skinofthesea. You can order Skin of the Sea, and pre-order Soul of the Deep.
Housekeeping
- MERCH! Preorder the Tarot Tee Shirt and get your other merch at spiritspodcast.com/merch!
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends the Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovitch.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Join the Multitude Discord today!
Sponsors
- Brooklinen delivers luxury bed sheets, pillows, comforters, & blankets straight to your door. Go to Brooklinen.com right now and use promo code “spirits” to get $25 off when you spend $100 or more, PLUS free shipping.
- Inked Gaming is your one-stop-shop for premium gaming goods. Visit inkedgaming.com/spirits and use the code: spirits when you’re ready to checkout!
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learned about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And we're joined today by author, Natasha Bowen. Natasha, welcome.
NATASHA: Thanks for having me.
JULIA: It is our pleasure. I'm really excited because I picked up the book recently. And I'm just very, very stoked. But can you do us a favor and tell us both a little bit about yourself and about Skin of the Sea.
NATASHA: So I am a former teacher, and mother of three I've been writing since I could read, which was quite young, actually. And I love The Little Mermaid growing up and wanted to not necessarily do a retelling but to tell a different version of The Little Mermaid. So I focused on West Africa, which is where my father's from, and basically enjoyed immersing myself in history and different myths that represent what happened in the 15th century, and what people believed and how that joined in with version different versions of mermaids.
JULIA: That's incredible. And would you mind giving us a quick summary of the book to kind of entice our listeners to like, hey, go pick it up, because you're going to love it.
NATASHA: So, Skin of the Sea is the story of Simi, she is Mami Wata, she's a mermaid. And she's been remade by a goddess called Yemoja. And her focus is to help gather the souls of those who pass in the sea in order to return them home to their maker. And one day she finds a boy who's still alive, and she saves him rather than his soul. And they break an ancient decree and have to make up for that by journeying to seek forgiveness from the Supreme Creator. And along the way, they are faced with lots of difficulties which I will try not to spoil, as well as you get an insight into different versions of myths. So you have werehyenas and Senegalese Fairies, just to name a few.
JULIA: You're hitting all of our buttons with all the words that you just said.
AMANDA: I know. You have your pitch down pat, I love it.
JULIA: Our listeners are going to be stoked. So I guess to get started, you mentioned your father is from West Africa. I know your mom was Welsh and you grew up in England yourself. What kind of stories did you grow up with?
NATASHA: I think I mainly we didn't have a TV when I was younger. And so I read from an early age and the kind of books I was reading were books that we would buy from church sales and the secondhand book shops. And so my favorite book was The Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Andersen and I didn't actually watch the Disney version, because we didn't have a TV. And I much preferred the kind of darker with fairytales I think I prefer the darker aspects to them. Because obviously, they were very fairytales were to warn children and, and to keep them safe so they were quite dark and grim. And yeah, so I grew up in those stories. And I think that as I got older, wanting to explore stories that were not just centered around US-centric tales was important. Because that disconnect sometimes between cultures, especially if you're second-generation immigrant, where you may not have even been to one of your parents' home country, and it's a way to explore that part of your identity. That was definitely a focus with writing Skin of the Sea.
JULIA: Oh, I love that so much. Were you drawn to more darker stories? Because you mentioned like, oh, the darker fairy tale version of Little Mermaid you prefer much better? Was that something that you were like, I kinda like a darker, more, you know, foreboding story.
NATASHA: Completely. I'm not a fluffy type of story person. So I always prefer the darker versions, even teaching when we're teaching six-year-olds, and it was supposed to be Little Red Riding Hood. And the other teacher who I was partnered with it, maybe it's a little bit dark, but I'm kind of like, oh, no, let's just teach it anyway, I'm sure that they can - if we do it in the right way they can handle it. I like them when they are more representative and I think that as readers and even as children, you need to learn a range about the world. So not everything is fluffy and light and happy all the time. But there's usually a lesson in it. So that's what I appreciate in stories.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. Like if you're going to be teaching six-year-olds, like you said, and fairy tales are all about teaching children lessons, those children to deal with the kind of like darker aspects of the fairytales because the world is dark sometimes.
NATASHA: Exactly.
AMANDA: Yeah. I have a random anecdote that I experienced this morning, where there's like a children's, like speech and physical therapy office next door to our podcast studio. And so this morning, I walked in and a kid was like, not wanting to go in for physical therapy and was screaming to his dad, like, I don't want to go I don't know why you signed me up for this. This is stupid and bad, and I hate it. And the dad is like, Listen, this is the thing that you got to do. Like, this is life. And I just flashed back to all the times in the past when I was a child and adult said to me like, this is life kid get over it. Like sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do. And at the time I hated it. But now as I get older, I'm like, You know what, somehow someone has to tell you that. And it would be much worse if you became an adult and had the great sort of privilege and luck never to have had to face anything like that. That's a way that kids and parents and communities get a chance to approach topics like death, grief, loss, bad fortune, all the things that make up our fairy tales.
NATASHA: Completely, and I think well, they're, well, they're difficult. There are some topics that are difficult and painful they shouldn't be shying away from because, you know, we need to be able to teach them and have that conversation about different topics. Because, you know, if you don't do that, then you're not equipping them to be adults and to deal with- with those types of issues. So there's always a way that you can do it that's not too traumatizing. But I think it's important to understand the good and the bad.
JULIA: Absolutely. Yeah. I was reading some interviews by you before and I was laughing at the line that you said in one where you skipped from children's books to Stephen King. And I was like, Yeah, that was me, too.
AMANDA: That's relatable.
JULIA: Highly relatable.
NATASHA: I just didn't think I found any of them interesting. I think that was stuck on Nancy Drew and Sweet Valley High for a little bit. And then I still don't know how we're allowed to get books out of the library. Flowers in the Attic, I remember reading. I was probably about 11. Yeah. And then it was [6:22], Stephen King, Sean Hudson, I was very horror focused. And I still am. I still love zombies. But it was definitely hardcore. Yeah, hardcore horror. There was no- no in-between which Yeah, probably would have helped, because I just didn't find it any of the books. Interesting.
JULIA: Right.
NATASHA: I went for a phase at school where I just hated everything we were reading. And it was either just boring or dry or maybe it's the way and if it was the way it was taught, necessarily, I think everything was just the same. So there was no relief, there was no kind of, yeah, there was no variety in what we were reading. So I probably I fixed it all by reading Stephen King behind my textbooks.
JULIA: I feel like a lot of YA probably at that time was very, like, I'm a spunky, white teen girl and I'm gonna solve a mystery. So I can imagine you probably weren't seeing yourself in those kind of tales.
NATASHA: No, and they're all the same. It's the same story is that you solve something. And I think I probably did, maybe like, maybe when I was about 10. And then it was like, Okay, what's next? What else is there? Because I always want to read something different even now and I'm done with these types of stories. What else can I read? What's out there? So yeah, that was me even then.
JULIA: Do you feel that searching for what the next thing that you personally want to read was? Did that kind of help inspire you to want to be a storyteller or be a writer?
NATASHA: A 100% I think I used to, I read a lot when I was younger, and then I carried on reading, and I would read walking to school, like I walked into a lamp only once did I walk into a lamp, I read it all the time. And so I think because I've read so much, and still do read so much. You do find comfort in the same types of stories and you can go through several authors because you know that it's going to be that type of story. But I want something different sometimes. And it's so exciting when you do find that story that's unlike anything else you've ever really read. And that's what inspired me to write this story because I just- I wrote what I wanted to read, but I hadn't- okay, well, if I'm not seeing that, then why don't I write it?
JULIA: Was there a moment where you kind of had that epiphany that you remember? Or was it something that kind of built up inside of you over time?
NATASHA: I think that I remember reading a book, where I saw myself and I think I was 19, it took that long until I read a book where I saw myself and my peers and the area that I lived in. And that was a moment I think when I thought oh, so there are books like this, then because up until then, I hadn't seen any. Especially not in England, there were American writers, black American writers that I enjoy reading, but not English ones. So especially because it's very focused, if you live in a certain area, you know, like London is going to be completely different to how you grew up in New York. And so that made me think oh, yeah, so people are doing it, I suppose that thing as well, where it does help when you see it definitely does help when you see people like you doing the type of thing that you would like to do or your dream of doing, because then it seems more achievable. After that, every story I wrote had a character that was based around Eva, how I looked or how my friends were, or how my family was. And I think that seeing that story almost gave me permission to do that, I think, what gave me the confidence to do that. Because even now, I mean, a couple of years ago, when I was teaching children, we're always planning and writing stories, but they were basing it from the stories that they read. So all of the stories had just names at a federal before like Tom and Sarah and I'm teaching children from South Asia and Africa. Why can't we have a different name? Why don't we give them what a moment using your name and they actually said, Oh, are we allowed to? Can we? So I think that is the importance of seeing yourself and seeing a wide range as well because, not just those children, but yeah, seeing different variations of stories and names and identities and- and that's so important.
JULIA: I love that, that's beautiful. Do you remember the name of the book that kind of inspired all this?
NATASHA: I think it was The scholar, scholar. Yeah-
JULIA: Okay
NATASHA: -by Courttia Newlands. And it was a book set on a public housing estate. And it was about two brothers and- and the group of friends that they grew up in and, and the ways that their life went in completely different ways. And they were just using the same sort of slang words that we that we were using at the time. And yeah, you just really seeing yourself and in a book, because I think maybe I've seen in TV programs and maybe the occasional film, but I've never really seen it in a book before.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's a real, 'is that allowed' moment? And I can imagine that sort of unlocking a lot of possibility for you.
NATASHA: Absolutely, definitely.
JULIA: So was there a moment that kind of inspired you to start digging a little further into the stories and the history of West Africa? Since the book is very much based on those traditions.
NATASHA: I've always been a bit of a history buff anyway. So it was a toss-up between English in university and History and English won in the end. But so I've always and I think some school curriculums are changing now. But I don't always want to do what I'm told to do, or learn what everyone else will the standard. So I'll learn that. But then I want something else. So I've always done my own reading and my own research from throughout my teenage years. And so I always had a passion for West Africa and Africa in general. And I think that I was writing a story based on I wanted to write a story based on a sci-fi that was reading about this myth about selkies, who are seals that turn into women under the moonlight, and then fishermen steal their skins, and they are stuck as women and they marry them. And then I was kind of thinking, I love those stories and I love the little mermaid. But there are so many different versions of mermaids around the world, but I'm still only seeing the same stories. And so I'd heard a little bit about mummy was growing up, but I hadn't. I hadn't really I hadn't really thought about it until then. And then I, when I was writing that story, I was thinking, well, obviously I'm gonna have characters that look like me in it. So can I have mermaids but are black? And what else is there? How did the- how did the stories and beliefs of them link up? So it's gonna Perseus it's you see the you have almost the origin story of how maybe black America is represented and how that story has evolved and changed due to the transatlantic slave trade. And that was the bit that kind of intersection of those stories converging. That's the bit that interested me. So Yomoji is an [12:37], who was said to have left. She's in [12:40] of river and streams and she was said to have left those when the first Africans were enslaved and followed them across the ocean. And lots of people believe that she ever wrecked the slave ships, or she just gave the enslaved comfort and some believe that she carried their souls home and it was the last bit carrying their souls home that really stood out to me because I was thinking, but what if I know a lot of the belief was as well that if you died, you return home. And I know that was used against a lot of enslaved people in various ways. And I was just thinking, so she's carrying these all these- these souls home. But what about the bit in between? And why if you're leaning towards that belief, why can't you do any more than return their souls home? And I think that whole thing of spirituality and believing in supreme beings and what you're allowed to do or free will as humans and not being able to interfere, we will have to live our own lives. That was all swirling around in my mind at the same time.
JULIA: That sounds like such a great like concept to finish product journey that I- I absolutely love. For our listeners, we've talked a little bit about Mami Wata on the show before but would you mind kind of giving us a refresher on sort of the story and the folklore itself.
NATASHA: So Mami Wata, there are different beliefs of Mami Wata. I think the ones that I focus on in West Africa usually use her as a cautionary tale for deep water as well. So she's used as something you know, slightly scary and dangerous. But again, I wanted to present Mami Wata as something slightly different than that, which is why it's going to see their more savior-like rather than dangerous. But I think that there are lots of variations of merbeings or mermaids across the continent of Africa, not just Africa, but around the world. But obviously, I focused on Africa and West Africa. And I found it just interesting the way that like with every story or belief they shift and change depending on the person or the location. So there are different mermaids in in South Africa. There's one that is said to live in a waterfall and then you have the Mami Wata who who I said to scare children from deep water and then you have your Yemoja is an Orisha versus a deity, and she has been represented as having a bad tail, the tail of a fish. So it was kind of merging some of those beliefs and myths together to get Skin of the Sea.
JULIA: that actually leads great into my next question, which is because the book is so inspired by West African religious traditions, did you ever find that like there was either a struggle or you were trying to pay attention to how you would balance those traditions, while also creating your own versions of these stories?
NATASHA: I think is really important to be respectful-
JULIA: Yeah.
NATASHA: -of a spiritual belief system that people still practice nowadays, while it's fiction, and some things can be made up, there are certain aspects that you have to be very careful about. So as well as reading and speaking to different people, I spoke to an Ephah priest who is from Nigeria, but lives in Atlanta now. So we spoke for about a year on and off of questions that I might have things that I didn't want to- what I should really take care of not misrepresenting, for example, Eshu, in the book is sometimes misunderstood and represented as the devil in terms of that Western concept of the devil and he's not, he's a trickster. And Orishas are more like deified personalities. So they're, they're humans, and they're good and bad. So there's no kind of, you can't represent one as completely good or completely bad. And that was really important with him, because he's often demonized. And I didn't want to do that. So I think it's trying to have that respect, whilst using your imagination and knowing the lines that you won't cross whilst not compromising the story. But I mean, I think that's the same with history as well, because I think that there's a difference. I don't completely rely on written texts, because especially if they're just written by Europeans, because that's certainly one side of the story. But it's hard to necessarily find all of the other that effects when things are passed down orally, and stories are passed down orally, so that there are different people in ways that you have to rely on and maybe use reading between the lines, I would say. So when there are some texts that say that the Portuguese, and there's a discrepancy between people that say that there were no Africans that were kidnapped, and those that say that there were, and I think it's obvious that in the very beginning, while the kidnapping may not have been on a mass- mass scale, it was definitely there and definitely one of the early factors. Those are some of the things that I try and slip between and understand and try and represent in the story.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, I think you did a fantastic job with that personally. But that's like a very thoughtful response to that. And I hope that a lot of authors also do that as well.
AMANDA: Yeah, I think there's a huge difference between extractive storytelling and immersing yourself and doing research and figuring it out and inviting love and care and deeper curiosity of your source material or you're inspired by material among your readers, which I think it's clear that you've done.
NATASHA: thank you. I love books that I've learned something from and that's I lost myself in fractals in the book and there's only one small bit really that represents them, although it does show in- in other aspects of the story because I think because it because I was amazed by it and because I found it important. You could see it shining through the repeating patterns in hair and fabric and architecture. So yeah, I think it's little things like that, that you- you wouldn't have necessarily known if you hadn't started researching you weren't as immersed in it.
JULIA: I love the rabbit holes that some authors end up going down and then they're like, yeah, that was only for like one chapter of the book but now it's gonna be incorporating the whole book.
AMANDA: Yeah.
NATASHA: The month of fractals. I've been in it Yeah. I spent a whole month on that but I enjoyed it. I mean, usually I hate math. So you know, I was quite pleased at that.
JULIA: Yeah, that's a win for- for everyone there awesome. Well, we will get back to talking to you Natasha, a little bit more about West African traditions and mermaids and mommy water just as soon as we get back from a refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
AMANDA: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the refill. Julia is moving this week. So it's me Amanda here to welcome you and also our newest patrons to the refill of today's episode, Nadja, Nocturnal Tempest, Arianna, and Carolyn, thank you so much for putting aside some budget every month to support an independent podcast like Spirits. We also want to thank our supporting producer level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jaybaybay, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Little vomitspiders running around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, Taylor, and Zazi, and of course those legend level patrons, Audra, Bex, Clara, Iron Havoc, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty. You can have your name read on every episode of Spirits or just the one where you become a patron at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, there are years worth of bonus material that includes audio extras early on, I regulated it from home every I think every week it was amazing. We have monthly bonus urban legend episodes. we have recipe cards with alcoholic and not for every dang episode. So much to love patreon.com/spiritspodcast. This week, I would love to recommend a series that I have mentioned offhandedly, but I never made it my recommendation for the episode. It's the Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovitch there is a new installment coming out later this year, got an advanced copy because I'm special, I'm a podcaster and that's one of the main perks of podcasting is getting advanced copies of books. God, it's so good guys. If you love mythology, if you love snarkiness, if you love mysteries, there is nothing like the Rivers of London series, pick it up today, and I am so excited to share something we've been working on over here at Multitude HQ for several months you have been asking for it, and finally it's arrived. The Multitude Discord is live and free and open to the public. So any fan of Multitude shows like Spirits or any of our others is welcome and encouraged to join. If you don't know what Discord is, or you haven't joined one before, think of it as a digital hub for an online community. You can come to discuss your favorite shows stay to share recipes, exchanged book recommendations, make clubs, play games, need a pen pal or just bask in the glory of daily pet pictures, and so much more in our many different channels. You can say hi to other Multitude fans, and of course us hosts who hang out there as well check out live streams of games that we do right in the Discord and only for the Discord. Plus, if you're a multi-crew member, you get access to exclusive events and channels that feature crew only poles, announcements and even a private lobby if it sounds fun, you can join via our community page at multitude.productions/community that's multitude.productions/community. We are sponsored this week by Inked Gaming. This is a trusted supplier of premium gaming goods that is basically a one-stop shop for customers all over the world. If you're planning on doing some shopping for gaming gear to add to your collection or to buy gifts for friends, you got to check out Inked Gaming. Their site is packed with everything you need to up your game including playmats, mousepads, dice mat bags, deck boxes, sleeves, and a lot more. You can even get customized items to let you make a personalized piece of gear with a unique design logo or even art of your very own. I'm a huge fan of making silly memes into physical things. So if you are looking for a gift for someone you love, and there is a meme that you love or have made or a silly phrase that you use amongst yourselves like in your group chat, get them like a mousepad or a dice-box carved in wood with the thing that you say everyday over text I highly recommend it. As a sponsor of Spirits, Inked has gifted us with a very nice perk that we are happy to share. It is a 10% off discount. To get that all you have to do is visit inkedgaming.com/spirits and use the code: spirits when you're ready to check out. thank you, Team Inked. We are also sponsored this week by Brooklinen. If you're looking to upgrade some part of your life of your routine, you got to check out Brooklinen they make the softest and most luxurious home essentially one of my friends texted me recently and was like I needed to get any get sheets for my new place like, is Brooklinen legit? Is it as good as you say on Spirits? People, I don't lie to you! Brooklyn is so good! I am in fact saving up for some Brooklinen in additional Home Essentials. I want to make my bathmat Brooklinen and I want to make my robe at Brooklinen and I'm going to get a robe for my grandma from Brooklinen for Mother's Day. I am so excited. They're so cozy towels, robes bathmats Home Essentials Brooklyn has got you covered. Genuinely, I frankly can't sleep [23:21] Brooklinen these days and and that's the poshest thing about me. So give the gift of comfort that your loved ones deserve and get it for less at Brooklinen. Go to brooklinen.com and use promo code [spirits] to get $20 off your purchase of $100 or more. That’s B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N.com and enter promo code [spirits] for $20 off. Brooklinen: The curators of comfort. That's a new tagline, Brooklinen and I like it. And finally, we are sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy. If you want to join the Wednesday morning therapy club, there is no better way to do it, in my opinion, then better help if you're looking for something that is more affordable than traditional offline therapy. And that lets you really find a good match so much about therapy is about your kind of chemistry and relationship with your therapist and I tried four or five therapists before I found the one via BetterHelp Her name is also Amanda, gotta love it that I really clicked with and that I can be honest with and also like hear her feedback in a way that really resonates with me. It is so important to make time for yourself and to make sure that you are taking care of you and you're making your primary relationship in your life the one you have with yourself. BetterHelp is online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist. You don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist and under 48 hours give it a try and see what over 2 million people have used better help online therapy. Once more, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and PODCAST NAME listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com/spirits. That’s B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com/spirits. And now, let's get back to the show.
JULIA: I don't know if you're a cocktail person, Natasha, but if you have a particular cocktail that you'd love, we would like to hear about it.
NATASHA: I was gonna say I feel quite like I should have a cup. I feel like I should have knocked down. I think my favorite one is I'm that person that gets to the menu. I'm like, Oh, I do like a pornstar martini.
JULIA: Hmm.
NATASHA: And I take great pleasure in telling people who pour their shot of Prosecco into the cocktail that you should be using it to cleanse your palate not dumping it in the cocktail because not everyone knows that.
JULIA: Can you describe a pornstar martini? For those of us who've-
AMANDA: I've never heard of this.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah
NATASHA: I can't actually describe what's exactly in it. I know it's passion fruit puree, and I think vodka. I never really care what's in it as long as it tastes nice.
JULIA: Hell yeah. That's how we feel.
NATASHA: But you do have a shot of Prosecco. I do know that. It's got a few things in it. Yeah, I don't. I can't [25:49] guys, I don't know. I just drink them. I don't make them.
JULIA: That's great. No, Prosecco is a chaser. I am all about that.
AMANDA: That's amazing. I really like beer shot combos or Boilermakers. There's a lot of like, regional names for them. And I was at a cocktail bar once where they serve like a whiskey-based cocktail. And then like two ounces of like, cheap American beer. And I was like, this is perfect. Like, this is exactly what I want sometimes. It's not so good.
JULIA: I love that. Next time we go to a bar, absolutely going to try the pornstar martini. That sounds incredible. Let's talk a little bit about kind of the journey of writing this book. I know, we've talked about, like all the research that went into it and kind of where you were coming from when you got into writing the book. Was it one of those things where you just like sat down one day and it was done? Because we've had writers that have come on and said that? Or was it something that like you took a lot of time with, you mentioned spending a month on fractals. So I imagine it's probably the latter.
NATASHA: It was a lot of time, but it felt quite quick.
JULIA: Okay.
NATASHA: Because there was other you know, if you speak to most writers that have written other books that you know, are never going to see the light of day. So I have written other books, but they were never, as long as I was forcing myself to finish them. And I think everyone, every writer can probably speak or would like to have that story that just burns through them. And it then becomes so easy to write. In terms of I was thinking about this very early, I think it's January 2017 and then I wrote about 20,000 words to see, to fill it out to see if I liked it or not. And then I was doing research at the same time. And then it got to the summer. And I think I'd written about that. 1000 words. And I really love I'm thinking about all the time, I really love it. And I always thought that I was an organic writer and didn't have to plot and I could just, you know, just write and the story would come out and I realized that no, which I should have known anyway, because I'm quite alien organized. I needed to plot it. So I spent the whole summer plotting it to within an inch of its life. And things don't change anyway. But what it meant then was if I got stuck on one bit, I could skip forward to write a particular scene that I was excited about. So I kept the momentum going rather than getting stuck. So then someone to plan it and then vote the rest from October 2017 to March 2018? I feel like it was quite quick.
JULIA: Yeah.
NATASHA: Because I was teaching full time as well, at the time.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Wow, that's incredible.
NATASHA: And I do, I've got three kids as well. So...
AMANDA: No big deal.
NATASHA: I don't know how I did it, actually. I mean, looking back and thinking, you know how I did that. I wrote at lunchtime, I wrote actually in staff meetings and in school assemblies. I know the headteacher probably saw me doing it but she never said anything. The kids in my class knew as well. They were like, are you because I speak about writing because writing is one of the lowest attaining subjects usually because kids just don't really enjoy it. So I'm like I'm writing, this is what I'm writing. And then they'd say, Oh, we see you writing your book in assembly. I said no, I'm writing down your names if you're talking and they would just laugh at me. Cuz they knew, I was- I was writing but yeah, I just, I just would write in chunks when I could. And then I think because I know if I have a good idea that I love because I go to sleep thinking about it and I wake up thinking about it. And that story was just yeah, it just I was obsessed.
JULIA: That's incredible. I love that you're like, I don't know, looking back, I don't know how it did it. That's just such a mood where you're like, you go through like a really intense thing. And you look back and you're like, go past me. All right. Sure.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Awesome job. That's, that's so great. I was reading in an interview with you that both you and your mother were diagnosed with dyslexia and how that actually helped inspire you to become an avid reader. And like, as someone who also has learning differences, I felt that vibe really hard. Like everyone's always really surprised when they're like, Oh, you like reading? Okay, do you want to talk about that a little bit and kind of that experience of how you became such an avid reader because you talked about how you became a reader very early on.
NATASHA: So I wasn't dyslexic but my mom was.
JULIA: Oh, okay.
NATASHA: I will say that when she- it was important to her to have me read because-because she couldn't. And so even though she was not a reader, she would buy books from a very early age like a baby and I will be surrounded by books. And I remember being about, I have a really weird memory. My friends don't believe when I say remember things like so far away. But that's usually because they can't remember what they had for dinner yesterday. I remember a favorite book when I was three, Learning the Lamb. And she would skip over the words that she couldn't read, which then as I was growing older, became quite a lot. And so I would sound them out and then read them to her. And then it became to the point where I would read any letters official letters that she was sent quite early on, and help her to write any letters that she had to help her write checks, I would write it out, and then she would, she had the most beautiful handwriting, she would, then she would copy what I'd written for her. I think definitely having that passion and being not pushed, but surrounded by books definitely contribute to the fact that I love them so much. It's inspiring when someone the fact that she would try and read to me even- even when I was kind of overtaking her capacity, she would still try and read to me and she very difficult school life and her main focus was it wasn't gonna be the same for me. So...
JULIA: That's like such a beautiful like gift and moment and memory that your mother shared with you there. Like, I remember being a child, and my mother like, reading books to me, and like doing all the little funny voices. And I think that's why I love reading so much is because my mother had the ability to kind of transport me to other places with stories, and I wanted to be able to do that for myself. So I very much relate to that.
AMANDA: How do you approach reading and your love of books with your kids, as a person who loves reading books so much, I imagine that if I ever have kids one day, I'll have to know that they're their own people, and they might not love, you know, reading the same way that I do or share my exact interests. And you know, you kind of get the kid you get, and you do the best you can with them. So how do you approach that? What kinds of stories do you tell them? And what kinds of stories do they like?
NATASHA: I was just thinking about that, as I was saying that my mom started me with books, I don't necessarily think that starting off kids with books means that they're always going to be a reader because my three kids are completely different. The oldest loved reading until he got to about 13/14. And then just stopped for a couple of years, probably because it was taken over by the PlayStation instead.
AMANDA: And the world is not easy on boys who love to read.
NATASHA: Although he doesn't Yeah, he doesn't really care. I think he was struggling to find books that he liked.
AMANDA: Sure.
NATASHA: Then he went through a phase of the Hunger Games and Divergent. And he liked that [32:27] about zombies, and then he just couldn't find any more that he was really into. And I get that because there's times where I'm a bit itchy. You know, like I you know, I have a giant to be read pile, but none of them and it's not because of the book, it's because I'm not in the mood for that particular book at that time. But yeah, I would buy them all the books that I love throwing up, as I do with toys and things like that like I like this, you're you're going to like it and hope that they will like it, but trying to get a range as well. And making sure that because I've got two boys and a girl, making sure that it's a wide range of stories. And I hate those anthologies that are like boy stories for boys and stories for girls. And it makes me really cross but yeah, surrounded with different range of stories and different- different, you know, poetry as well, and many plays if I can. And we would always have a routine of reading before bed. And when I was super strict, and my older child, I would say, you know, you can play on the PlayStation for as long as you want but you match it with your reading time. So that was quite a good way of keeping him reading. My youngest has just finished Amari and the Night Brothers. And he loves it because I can't wait for the second book. Can I have it for my birthday? So inside I'm like, "YES!" but my daughter she yeah, she nothing. She's not really into reading as much she does read but not at the rate that I do. And I have to accept that she's her own person. And that hopefully she'll find what she enjoys reading and comes back to it.
JULIA: Maybe she's just savoring the books too. Like taking your her time with it and being like, ah, yes, I'm immersed in this story. I love it so much.
NATASHA: That's what she'll say. But I'm not sure.
JULIA: Fair enough. Fair enough.
AMANDA: Well, I mean, the trouble is when reading becomes associated with you know, stress or pressure or you're a slower reader and people you know, expect other things I completely sympathize with that. And my youngest brother, similarly, like didn't find a ton that he was interested in until I brought Agatha Christie on like a vacation we took together and he like tore through it. And so to this day, you know, the sort of murder mystery and detective stories, whether it's miniseries movies, books, or something that- that brings us together, I tried this with my siblings, I was a huge reader in the family of just saying like, listen, you know, library's open, here's your library card that I laminated with tape. And if you ever want to check something out, you know, come check it out, like I think takes a lot of restraint for those of us who are extremely voracious readers to sort of let people come to the things that they are interested in. So I commend you on that.
NATASHA: Because I'm always trying to force people to read certain things. You'll love this and I think they might not, but you might so at least try it. Give it a try. Yeah, I do that and I think because because I talk for so long. You're always trying to find books that you think the child might like, I think, cuz it's amazing to be that person that gets them into reading or you know, the best feeling is when you find a writer, or a series that you love, and there's loads of books like Agatha Christie, you could just tear through them all. But yeah, I think it's it is about just letting them letting them choose. And I don't know how you in England when we teach reading, there's certain I get this, you- you work through certain levels of books to increase your reading skills, but I would also have them come up with a book that they wanted to read as well as the book that they have to read. Because otherwise, it is just a chore then and whenever they you know, I don't think any book is too hard if you want to try and read it. And as long as you're supporting it, and you're enjoying it, and that's what counts.
JULIA: Yeah, 100%.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: To kind of bring us back to the- the mythology of it all and the- the folkloric traditions, I know that Mami Wata is very much the focus of the book, but you include a lot of other various like creatures and spirits and stuff like that. Are there some other ones that are your favorites that you want to talk about?
AMANDA: My ears pricked up at Senegalese fairies? Was that right?
NATASHA: Yeah, so I think I didn't want to stop at that age. Because telling a story that represents, you know, non-Eurocentric, magical beings, I felt like I needed to add didn't have a choice in terms of giving myself a choice and wanting to include as many as I could. So when I think about and this isn't necessarily a criticism, but when I when I think about werewolves, I think about certain type, I don't think about other shapeshifters, or maybe other cultures, because that's kind of what I've seen in the media, when I think about films and may and even books. Not now, but a couple of years ago, when I was writing get the same thing with mermaids, when there's other there are so many versions of stories and beliefs about them around the world, the same thing for fairies and vampires and shapeshifters. And so I wanted to include West African versions where I could complement the story with West African mermaids. And so learning about Yumboes, which are Senegalese fairies and different beliefs of the stocks, or bonds, and which are vampire-like creatures, and I love, you know, I like gore and stuff, as well as I like that has to be included in the book, anything that can eat or attack anyone, I'm going to have it in there with a different twist to it. So I really enjoyed finding more out and increasing my own knowledge of the different myths around West Africa, and all the different creatures in it, and seeing it just continually blew my mind, the more you know, you think, you know, a certain amount, and then you read and then you finally talk to the people you're fighting over more and more. And I was just thinking, I can't believe I haven't seen this. I can't believe I haven't seen a TV series with this. I can't believe I haven't read like at least 10, 20 books with you know about this. So I think that was making me more excited that I could bring a story to life and to show those different creatures and myths. Yeah, it still excites me when I think about it. And I have a book about young boats floating in the back of my mind and werehyenas. So yeah, I think that's when you know, you're excited, because yeah, just just like have to write this and have to write that. And that would be really good story. And that and then it all leads on. So...
JULIA: I mean, that kind of leads to one of my favorite questions to ask authors, which is what other stories what other kinds of stories do you want to be telling in the future?
NATASHA: I think, at the minute, I'm definitely focused on West Africa in the past that blending that magical element, even though, you know, even though it's kind of the sea has elements and the origin of semi is through enslaved people. The focus of the book is not that the focus of the book, and the story is magic, and strength, and family and love. And I think those are not stories that are often told when it comes to West Africa, or traditionally, maybe historical black fiction. And I think shifting that focus onto that fantastical element. And those stories of love and giant from courage is definitely something that I'm focusing on for the foreseeable future.
JULIA: Incredible. I love that so much.
AMANDA: Well, I love reading it. So that works out really well for all of us in your readership.
JULIA: That is true. 100% This is just kind of a fun aside, I was reading your bio, and it said that you're passionate about stationery and notebooks and stuff like that. Can we gush about that for a little bit?
AMANDA: I want to know is so this is the thing that I think many readers have in common. Is it because we grew up with so much paper material? Is it because as kids, all anybody can get us is either books or notebooks. Why does this happen to us? I feel like it's such a shared trait.
NATASHA: I think I love that back-to-school feeling as well. You know, when you get your notebooks and your pens and you get to you get to choose everything. And also I think there's that the association between the brain and when you're reading something on actual physical page. For me, it's the same with writing. So I write in longhand in a notebook, and then I type it up and I find it sort of almost like another level of editing that goes it goes through because of that if I can read my handwriting because I have to admit I have the worst handwriting and sometimes I can't actually even read it myself because especially when I get excited I just end up screwing rolling like a toddler. I also feel and I'm sure other aspects of a rise up like this as well. You have a new notebook and it feels you, you need a new notebook.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
NATASHA: But I'm like, I need to know, a new notebook, because it's a new chapter or... so I ended up having too many. But and but yeah, I just loved that whole new, that crisp feeling of a new page. And it just, it feels like it helps my inspiration and motivation. But really, it's just an excuse, because I like buying notebooks.
JULIA: No, but I 100% understand the like idea of the extra level of editing by copying something from long handwritten out to the computer. I also find it so much easier to edit, typed up stuff by printing it out and then doing all of my edits like physically. And I don't know why that is, I think probably it's because when it's on a computer, and I can just so easily change it. I'm just like, I don't want to change. It's too easy, but printing it out. I'm like, Oh, I can see the edits I'm making, I can see the cross out I can see the word change that I did. So I 100% agree. But like, yeah, having something in a physical form just makes it easier sometimes.
NATASHA: And I think you catch things as well, that you don't see on the screen. And also with a notebook, if you carry it with you all the time. I'm not going to carry my laptop all the time. So and if I don't write something down, I'll forget about it. I did. So I have one by my bed because I know you know that time just as you're falling asleep, sometimes the best sort of ideas-
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
NATASHA: -come or that's how I could fix that. And if I don't get up and write it down, it's gone. Even though I think there's no way I'm ever going to forget this. Like it's an amazing idea is gone the next day, and I don't like doing it on my phone. I like to actually write it down
JULIA: No, and I've- I've had that thing where I wake up in the middle of the night and have a great idea and then I jot it down on my phone. And then I wake up the next day and I look at the sentence. I'm like, What the fuck does that mean? What were you talking about?
NATASHA: Yeah, it's like, Nutella said get on blah, blah, blah. [41:52] Doesn't make sense.
JULIA: It's like, what were you thinking, 3 AM Julia? What was going on in your brain in that moment? Oh, gosh, yeah, but I love notebooks, too. And I just had to I'm currently packing up my office because I'm moving and I was just like, I might need a whole box just for notebooks, is that a problem? It's probably okay, right?
NATASHA: It is a problem. I've got a whole box in my house. And then and then I you know, I buy these new ones. And I just come back to the same one because I have like a it's almost like a leather. [42:21] It's like a leather cover. And you can it's reusable basically, so you buy inserts to put inside it. So I always come back to that because now it's all battered and soft and yeah, so I should probably just stop buying them. But yeah, I can't.
JULIA: No, I love that and I love the idea that you come back to the same one. You're like how this is the novel notebook. This is the thing that's gonna get the novel done.
AMANDA: Is it a Filofax?
NATASHA: No, it's uhh-
AMANDA: More like in that style?
NATASHA: It's a traveler's notebook.
JULIA: Ah!
NATASHA: You can get different inserts that go inside it diaries as well.
AMANDA: Yeah.
NATASHA: As well as like little wallet things and yeah, it's just yeah, it's amazing.
JULIA: I love that that's such a good idea.
AMANDA: I might have to ask you what the brand is, that's amazing.
NATASHA: They used to be called, Midori, but it's Travelers Factory now.
JULIA: Okay.
NATASHA: And then I have a German one which is a Roterfaden and they have clips in so you can clip notebooks in so that one those are my two favorite
JULIA: I love that.
AMANDA: Natasha, thank you again I can't wait for all of our listeners to buy your book and books in the future and become just dedicated fans. So could you remind us where we can find your work and you online?
NATASHA: You can find me on Twitter @skinofthesea. Although I'm on there sporadically, @natasha_bowen_ on Instagram. Skin of the Sea is out in most retailers at the minute across the US and the sequel is coming out this fall. So very exciting. I'm excited.
JULIA: Yes is the pre-order for the sequel available yet?
NATASHA: Not yet. I think the next few weeks it will be.
JULIA: Okay. So by the time this episode comes out, it should be available for pre-order and you can find links to both of those in the show notes of this episode.
AMANDA: Beautiful. Well, Natasha, thank you again and everybody remember-
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website as well as a forum to send us in your urban legends, and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more like recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic for every single episode, director's commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye.
Transcriptionist: Krizia Marrie Casil