Episode 31: Mami Wata
/Meet the badass mermaid ruler of the rivers and coasts of Western Africa: Mami Wata, who knows how to exact revenge and how to enjoy the finer things in life. We talk snakes that can swim, Amanda’s lack of football knowledge, complicated relationships with water and exes, and how Mami Wata is the Fuck Mother we’ve been waiting for.
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Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 31: Mami Wata. It's a good one y'all.
JS: Yeah, and it's gonna be good.
AM: I feel like I start every episode saying that, but like I'm just so proud of us --
JS: I mean but it's true. It's gonna be good.
AM: -- and you. It's gonna be great. To begin with though, Julia, you came in with a book recommendation from you that I think the listeners have to hear about.
JS: Yes. Okay. So, I actually want to do this more frequently, where we talk about stuff that we consumed in the past two weeks.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Whether it be books, or TV shows, or music --
AM: Podcasts.
JS: -- or podcasts. So --
AM: Yeah. I'm into it.
JS: So, I just finished this novela. It's by a woman named Nnedi Okorafor. It's called Binti. And it's sort of Afrofuturism space drama kind of thing, and it's fucking beautiful. And the main character is amazing. And I tore through it in like two hours, and it was the greatest thing ever.
AM: Amazing. And I wanted to recommend this week my favorite murder, which probably all of you have heard of.
JS: Probably.
AM: But, just in case there's like one or two of you, who really likes talking about kind of macabre. You know, kind of like nerdy subjects like two, you know, friends who are women talking about things.
JS: That sounds familiar.
AM: And just like being really, you know, funny and open and kind of dark about stuff. Like My Favorite Murder is so good.
JS: It is.
AM: And I just binge their back catalogue. I started listening, you know, roughly a year ago, but had listened to the first few episodes. And, oh, god, it's so good.
JS: I'm glad you finally got around to it.
AM: It’s so – it’s just talking about murder.
JS: Yes.
AM: It’s just talking about murder. And like, like True Crime in a way that isn't super exploitative it --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- because it's like also like ladies like reckoning with the fact --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- that it's like a True Crime genre. Oh, so good.
JS: Yeah. Moving on from that, we got a lot of feedback on last week's episode.
AM: [Inaudible 1:30].
JS: And I kind of want to address it.
AM: Sure.
JS: I hear you guys. I know I don't pronounce stuff right. And I know it's very easy for me to go ahead and pronounce stuff right. So, from here on, I'm gonna do my due diligence and I'm going to do my best to pronounce it.
AM: I'm just gonna leave that into this.
JS: Yeah. Thank you so much.
AM: Yeah, I know. You’re welcome.
JS: I'm gonna do my best to pronunciate --
AM: Correctly.
JS: -- and pronounce stuff correctly.
AM: Yes. We – no. We, we want to – we want to learn shit here. And even though it's us drinking and chatting and we do that literally every – not every day the drinking part.
JS: Whoa.
AM: So, we chat every day. So, I think it's easy for us to just be like, “Oh, this is kind of – let’s chat. It’s fine.” But like there are, you know, tens of thousands of you, which is so incredible and flattering. And we definitely want to do our due diligence and do our best to like represent these myths.
JS: Yeah. We don't want anyone thinking that we're looking down on anything or we're disrespecting the cultures that we're talking about.
AM: Yeah. Or, not giving it it’s, it's due time --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- which we want to do.
JS: We definitely are going to consider that and do our best going forward.
AM: We sure will. And, and you know what helps us do that, Julia?
JS: I do know what helps us do that.
AM: Money.
JS: Patrons.
AM: Patrons! Being able to, to treat this show like the part-time job that it's been for over a year now.
JS: Yes.
AM: Thank you, first and foremost, our supporting producer-level patrons LeeAnn Davis, Shannon Alford, Phil Fresh, Catherine Addington, Kristina Rogers and Dorian Schuler-Teachout. We love you so much. And we are so grateful for your ongoing support. But also it's so great when we can add people to the family. And we have had several joined in the last two weeks; Ben, Griffin, Nocturnal Druid – god, I love your name.
JS: Such a good name.
AM: Christian, friend of the show and upcoming guests, Maggie, Jessica, and Wendi. Thank you so, so much for joining.
JS: You guys rock. You are the half mermaid, serpent spirits of our hearts.
AM: Ooh.
JS: And --
AM: Which half is mermaid? Which half is serpent?
JS: You'll find out.
AM: Please never shake your shoulders to me like that again.
JS: I just did the Shaquille O'Neal's shoulder shake at Amanda.
AM: You should know I can't at all. You did. Beautiful. So, listen, y'all, if you haven't joined us on Twitter and Facebook, we post amazing GIFs all the time. Julia does a like classical art meme Friday that it hasn't – it doesn’t have a name yet, but it’s just so fucking exciting.
JS: No. It's a – it’s myth meme Fridays.
AM: Myth meme Friday.
JS: That’s what it is now.
AM: I'm into it, god. So, find us @SpiritsPodcast.
JS: Okay. So, there are a couple of days left in Trypod, which is this month of making people, who aren't aware of podcasts, aware of podcasts. So, if you have some time, you can go to our website. We have a list of stuff under the #PodGalentine.
AM: Yes. spiritspodcast.com/podgalentine. We put it together in February, but it's totally valid for March as well.
JS: Or, if you guys have like a specific topic, a specific, you know, genre that you're looking for that you're looking for recommendations for, we're here to help. Just, you know, messages, send us an email, message us on Twitter. We are happy to help you out.
AM: Shout out to Chris Pritchard Sr., who recently tweeted us that he taught a 55-year-old man how to download podcasts on his Iphone in order to listen to us.
JS: And that's amazing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And you're doing the Lord's work, Thank you so much.
AM: In South Texas oilfield.
JS: Amazing.
AM: So, listen if you guys successfully are able to teach a parent, a grandparent, a friend, a co-worker, you know, a baby cousin, who doesn't know what these RSS feeds are all about, how to listen to podcasts, totally, let us know and we will shout you from the rooftops.
JS: My grandma listens to our podcast.
AM: Hi, grandma.
JS: She usually asks me to stop cursing so much.
AM: Grandma, I'm really sorry. It's all my fault. And I'm looking forward to having dinner with you this summer.
JS: Love you.
AM: Love you too.
JS: Well, that’s about --
AM: That’s about it, right?
JS: Yeah. Let's do it. I was gonna do your part there. Let's do it.
AM: Oh, my gosh.
JS: No, I'm not gonna do it now.
AM: I was gonna say I don't feel kind of weird in episode 31.
JS: Go ahead.
AM: All right, folks. Enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 31: Mami Wata.
Intro Music
JS: So, anyone who's listened to the show before knows we are super into water spirits.
AM: I'm kind of transfixed by drowning. So, I'm not gonna lie.
JS: I know. You totally are. It's really weird.
AM: Last – last episode or – yeah. Last episode, we talked about like how every Irish person is up on the number who has drowned. And someone tweeted me like, “I have two family members who drowned.”
JS: There we go.
AM: My first, my first response to the tweet was good. But then I was like, “No, not good.”
JS: No, not what I meant.
AM: What's, what's good is that I'm not alone, but what’s bad is like your two family members drowned and like so did mine, and I'm so sorry.
JS: Not so great. So, we have talked a lot about like Ireland and Scotland drownings and what-not.
AM: Just lots and lots of puddles. Just [Inaudible 5:58] on if had a child.
JS: But I think we should go a little bit further south.
AM: All right.
JS: To the continent of Africa.
AM: Beautiful.
JS: Specifically, Southeast Nigeria.
AM: Amazing.
JS: And we're going to talk about a spirit today called Mami Wata.
AM: Awesome. Is, is it mother of water?
JS: Yeah. Let's talk about that name for a second.
AM: Cool.
JS: What a great segue you just put me in.
AM: Oh, you’re welcome.
JS: I appreciate it. So, it's pretty straightforward. But, as I was doing research for this episode, I kind of spiraled down this sort of linguistics rabbit hole.
AM: Amazing.
JS: Mami Wata is pidgin English pronunciation of the word mammy or mother and water, obviously. Now, I didn't know what pidgin was. So, I had to look it up. And it's basically when you have two groups that don't speak each other's languages. Kind of think of the Age of Exploration with white dudes discovering in “new cultures”.
AM: Yeah. [Inaudible 6:53] have to learn the languages of the places that we’re conquering.
JS: Yeah. Well, the problem was they didn't have any language in common.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: So, pidgin is this sort of grammatically simple communication that comes from that idea that they don't have a language in common. So, they have to speak very simply in their own language and to like figure out what’s happening.
AM: Yeah. Like transactional, functional. Like let's get communication going language.
JS: Right. So, it becomes this simplified version of both languages that can create a point of access, while not being completely grammatically correct on either side.
AM: Yeah. But also kind of like that's evolution, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like finding, finding a way to get the job done.
JS: Right. That's how language evolves.
AM: Exactly.
JS: And it's really interesting. Another interesting thing is actually if a pidgin language becomes the primary language of a group, the language is then referred to as a Creole language.
AM: My Haitian Creole,
JS: Yeah.
AM: Fuck yeah.
JS: Isn’t that cool?
AM: It is cool though.
JS: That's amazing.
AM: I know. And like – and it's so cool. I mean English is sort of a Creole of, you know, kind of like English, Saxon, and Germanic and, you know, various other influences. And, so, tracing – and the fact that it's hundreds of years old makes it harder to do so. But like tracing the kind of origins of various words is just the thing that I love to do.
JS: It is super cool.
AM: And it's so much more immediate and easy to access when you are studying a Creole or a pidgin language.
JS: Right. And I just – I think that's awesome. And I feel like it is a really interesting representation of the spirit that we're gonna to talk about.
AM: That’s a promise.
JS: Mami Wata is worshipped across many traditions in Africa in different kinds of forms and even worshipped in North America and the Caribbean. However, her story is most deeply rooted in the traditions of the people who are indigenous to the southeast of Nigeria like I said. And that includes the Efik, the Ibibio, and the Annang people. And I think I pronounced all of those right. I hope so. Cross my fingers.
AM: Doing our best.
JS: So, she spread through trade routes. The tradition kind of spread through traders.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It started in Nigeria, and then spread as far north as Senegal and as deep south and east as Zambia. So, this method of spreading meant that, in many areas, she was being adapted according to the culture. So, usually, that meant she was being combined with or was absorbing the attributes of other local spirits and goddesses of water.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Which I love. You know how much I love a good synchronization.
AM: I know you do especially when it's something as kind of elemental --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- as, you know, water, or birth, or life, or death. Like it's every, every kind of person and group of people, you know, based on their particular traditions and their geography puts their own particular spin on a thing. So I love when we can study like the umbrella of Mami Watas.
JS: Right.
AM: You know, that are like spread across the continent.
JS: So, let's talk about who Mami Wata is. So, Mami Wata, as her name implies and as I've mentioned already, is a water spirit. We kind of talked a lot about the complicated relationship that humans have with water. And Mami Wata is pretty much the embodiment of those complicated issues. She's basically – if water was exes, she would be that one you have really complicated feelings for whenever they pop up on social media you know.
AM: Julia, you know that I know.
JS: I know. That's why I said it.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Oooh, that was – that was a deep cut there. That hurt.
AM: That hurt. That hurt.
JS: I'm sorry.
AM: I’m like sat back in my chair there.
JS: You did. You’re like – I didn't even finish the sentence and were like, “Nope. Nope. Back it out.”
AM: Because, because it hurts.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It’s the flashes like the regret and, and, you know, memories.
JS: Yup.
AM: And love and hatred.
JS: Yup.
AM: And the feeling superior and kind of like, like dumb. And, and not wanting to regret it at all because YOLO, but also like, "Why did you give up four years of your life?"
JS: Are you doing okay?
AM: I'm fine.
JS: You good? All right.
AM: I'm good.
JS: Cool. Okay. So, Mami Wata
AM: Yes.
JS: She's associated with water obviously; the sea, mermaids, markets, divination, healing, luck, money, and music, which all sound pretty dope.
AM: Why would you need any other goddess?
JS: I mean really, right? Amazing.
AM: Let's dive into this.
JS: So, there's a reason she's associated --
AM: Oh, I just realized. So, our, our kind of like tagline is a drunken dive into myths and legends,
JS: Yeah.
AM: And we didn't even know that water spirits were going to be so RGM when we made --
JS: I know.
AM: -- when we made that tagline.
JS: Damn.
AM: And, so, here we are.
JS: So us.
AM: Do you know what I want?
JS: What?
AM: I want a T-shirt of various water spirits --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- all like gathered around us.
JS: Yes, yes, yes. I just want like a pool party with water spirits.
AM: Fucking yes. That’s it.
JS: Someone make this for us.
AM: And like ModCloth bathing suits.
JS: Oh, my god, so cute.
AM: Oh, my god. With like a – like a selfie and a kelpie just like petting each other's hair.
JS: How cute.
AM: Oh, my god. Artists, we know you're listening. We just want fan art.
JS: It would be so cute though.
AM: Ooh,
JS: Okay. So, the reason – I listed mermaids in that mix there, in case, you didn't catch it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: The reason she's associated with mermaids is because of her periods in most stories.
AM: Okay. So, it’s what?
JS: So, in many stories, she is a mermaid-like figure. Usually, she has a woman's form, which is naked from the waist up.
AM: Okay.
JS: And then the lower part of her body is either a fish or a serpent.
AM: Ooooooh.
JS: Yes. Because in Africa they have anacondas.
AM: Yes.
JS: Which – and other serpents that are also aquatic as well as --
AM: [Inaudible 12:17] serpents.
JS: Yes. That are aquatic as well as living on land.
AM: What?
JS: You didn't know anaconda's were aquatic. They like swim across rivers and stuff.
AM: No.
JS: Oh, god. Did I just ruin all water for you forever?
AM: I thought – I thought like piranhas were bad enough and like parasites that could get in through your vagina. But, now --
JS: Thank you.
AM: -- we have to talk about fucking partial water.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: No.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What?
JS: Are you okay?
AM: Why does that exist?
JS: Because nature is cruel.
AM: Oh, my god. Julia, you've like brought back all kinds of specters on the last two minutes.
JS: I'm so sorry.
AM: I do need a drink.
JS: Okay. Well, keep drinking.
AM: I will.
JS: Keep drinking, old man.
AM: Keep drinking, old man.
JS: Okay.
AM: Drink the whole night through.
JS: Drink the whole night through. Okay. So, the association with her being part fish or snake is actually linked to the fact that, historically, West Africa has a lot of manatees in the rivers, which I love manatees. Manatees are adorable.
AM: They are fucking --
JS: They used to be my favorite animals as a child.
AM: Sea cows.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Sea cow's adorable. It’s the cow of the sea, sea, sea.
JS: The assumption is that, a lot of times, these manatees – adorable sea cows were in the shadows of rivers confused for mermaids.
AM: Exactly. If you're a sailor and you've been, you know, away long enough and you're like, you know, wanting enough --
JS: Sure.
AM: -- any, any vaguely oblong shape is gonna like a woman.
JS: I'll just fuck it. It's fine. Interestingly, a lot of the cultures in West Africa call manatees Mami Watas --
AM: Huh!
JS: -- which is adorable.
AM: Adorbs.
JS: I think that’s really cute. That's how she looks in some stories. In other stories, she's just a human-looking – a human-looking woman. But she's usually either decked out in expensive baubles. So, like watches --
AM: Hmmm.
JS: -- necklaces, pearls, that sort of thing. Or, she has a snake wrapped around her waist, and its head is resting between it's – her breasts.
AM: That sounds so badass and great.
JS: So, the snake is actually super important because it's both a sign of her divinity and a nod to the fact that she's also related to divination.
AM: Divination meaning the finding of water.
JS: No, like seeing the future.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Yeah, which I think is cool. So, she --
AM: That's, that's dowsing.
JS: Yes,
AM: It’s finding water.
JS: Dowsing is what you’re thinking of.
AM: All right. Got it.
JS: So, depending on the area, she can either have anything from straight to extremely curly hair, but it's usually combed back --
AM: Hmm.
JS: -- which is supposed to be a sign of her opulence. And,even in some stories, she takes the form of a man so she can walk through the markets and streets of local towns.
AM: Yeah, depending on like the culture and kind of social --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- social norms.
JS: But, more often than not, she's portrayed as a woman. But let's talk about her stories.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She seemed pretty cool so far. We're into it.
AM: I know. The appearance is pretty great. And I can see why I Googled the name earlier and make sure I was spelling it right. And the first Google autocomplete was Mami Wata tattoos --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- which maybe it's because I've been Googling tattoo stuff a bunch of --
JS: That’s probably.
AM: So, it’s just like what level of flaking is normal for a color-shaded tattoo. I'm just – I'm just raining blue and green all over my couch.
JS: Are you – are you at a good level of flaking?
AM: I am at a – I am at peak flake --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- when it comes to my, my new tattoo. Anyway.
JS: But it’s an acceptable level flaking is my issue.
AM: Yea. No. No. It's a good one. No. It’s totally fine. Follow me on @spiritspodcast to see a photo of it. Anyway. And, yes. So, apparently there’s lots of Mami Wata – Mami Wata tattoos.
JS: And because she's amazing, and you'll see why.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, in most stories, Mami Wata comes across people. Usually followers, but, sometimes, they're just random people who are swimming or boating in her waters. She abducts them.
AM: Okay.
JS: And then brings them to her gorgeous, beautiful realm, which is either underwater, in the spirit world, or both.
AM: That sounds great. And it makes a lot of sense to me that the spirit world would be underwater.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like it's inaccessible. It's huge, right? Like, like it's multitudinous.
JS: Yeah.
AM: There's like weird amazing shit that happens down there as we covered in our 30 Myths in 30 Minutes Episode --
JS: Hell yeah.
AM: -- Anniversary Bonanza with the like fucking --
JS: The kingdom of sea lions.
AM: [Inaudible16:15] from deep in the sea lions. Yeah.
JS: Yeah,
AM: Like that, that makes a lot of sense.
JS: Sometimes, she'll keep these people she abducts forever. BUt oftentimes, they're allowed to return to their world. She gives them the choice. When they return, their clothes are dry.
AM: Cool.
JS: And they've come to a better spiritual understanding of the world --
AM: Huh!
JS: -- because they've been taken by Mami Wata. And returning means that they've been blessed by her, which means they become more relaxed.
AM: Okay.
JS: More attractive.
AM: Great.
JS: And usually more wealthy.
AM: I see no downsides here.
JS: There's really not anything.
AM: So, wait. What is – what is the, the other side of the choice? Like why would one stay with her?
JS: Because it's a beautiful land in the spirit world.
AM: Sort of heaven. Oh, okay. Got it.
JS: And it’s an opulent castle that’s great.
AM: Got it. Got it.
JS: Here's another story.
AM: Okay.
JS: One day, a man is boating down the river. He sees a naked woman sitting on a rock by the edge of the water. She's combing her hair with a beautiful ornate comb and is looking at her reflection in a beautiful mirror. She sees the man, and she dives into the water fleeing his sight.
AM: Okay.
JS: But, in her haste, she leaves behind the expensive items.
AM: Don't ever look in that mirror.
JS: The boatman, of course, takes the expensive items and returns home.
AM: Oh, god. No.
JS: Like you do. When he goes to sleep --
AM: To be fair, I probably would do.
JS: I mean yeah. When he goes to sleep that night, Mami Wata comes to him in his dreams and gives him two options.
AM: Okay.
JS: Return the items and be sexually faithful to her or suffer bad fortune for the rest of his life.
AM: Best case scenario, he returns items and only sleeps with her forever.
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay.
JS: The man of course returns the items.
AM: Was this snake Mami Wata or fish Mami Wata? Because that would make a difference.
JS: I feel like it was human Mami Wata.
AM: Okay. Okay.
JS: Because they’re – they're gonna have sex. And he probably isn't fucking a fish. I don't know. Maybe that's his thing.
AM: That was my question.
JS: I know. Yucky. Yum.
AM: I know. Yucky. Yum.
JS: Okay. So, the man – of course, he returns the items and is visited often by Mami Wata and grows wealthier and healthier each time she returns.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: She's great.
AM: It's like the opposite of a succubus.
JS: It 100% is, and it's – I wrote that down in my notes.
AM: Oh, my god. Really? Okay.
JS: Okay. So, which leads to this really interesting concept of sexuality that comes to Mami Wata, because Mami Wata is also associated with sexual liberty and stuff like that. This is a goddess who is associated with sex and love in a positive way, not like a weird seductress succubus kind of way.
AM: So rare.
JS: But she also insists on sexual fidelity for her lovers.
AM: Huh!
JS: So --
AM: Which like, obviously, like bending the, the kind of normal, you know, statute of things where there's like a male patriarch and many women who are expected to be faithful to him. And he can, you know, kind of do whatever.
JS: She is basically the opposite of our beloved fuck father, my boy, Zeus.
AM: Wow.
JS: She is. Clearly.
AM: She is the fuck mother.
JS: She is the fuck mother but like --
AM: In a good way.
JS: -- in a great way.
AM: In the best way.
JS: Which, I'm super into.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: I feel like culturally there's always this double standard of --
AM: Yeah
JS: -- a dude can sleep with as many women as he wants. And he's a player, and that's cool. But, if a woman does it --
AM: Right, which is also like super destructive to men.
JS: Right.
AM: -- don’t necessarily want to live up to that thing or like feel a lot of pressure. And like it's just it sucks for everybody.
JS: Right. And, if a woman does it, she’s slut shamed.
AM: Right.
JS: But this is kind of that divine opposite, and I’m so about it.
AM: So good.
JS: Really good .
AM: And she like sets the curve against which Zeus’, you know, fuck – fuckiness is like --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- graded.
JS: Yes, 100%. She's the one. He is the 10.
AM: Yeah. On – so, on a scale of one to Zeus, how much of a fuckboys is this fuckboy? Or, on a scale of one to Mami Wata, how amazing is this woman that you want to be like?
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah. Oh, so good.
JS: Oh, god I love it so much.
AM: So good.
JS: So, then we'll move on to her aspect of healing.
AM: Okay.
JS: Like I mentioned before, the people in her favor tend to lead healthier, longer lives.
AM: Amazing, which also like be sexually satisfied and like happy and, and, you know, like --
JS: Healthy and wonderful.
AM: That should all go hand in hand.
JS: Yeah. So, interestingly --
AM: It’s kind of like the secret. Jules, did you test it earlier today?
JS: Yes. It is the secret.
AM: The secret is but unofficial, but I don’t – I’m just saying --
JS: Yeah.
AM: I'm just saying. I’m not gonna be yucky yum, but maybe that'll bring you wealth and happiness.
JS: Maybe. If someone comes down with an incurable disease, it’s said that this person was chosen by Mami Wata. And only she will be able to cure them, which I find a little weird and a little like opposite of what she's supposed to be all about. But I think it's supposed to be a representation of you have to believe in her, and then she will cure you.
AM: Yeah. And like the, the kind of depths of her power. You know, like a problem so bad that only she can solve it --
JS: Right
AM: -- type situation.
JS: Yeah. Sort of the pray to God, because he's the only one who can heal you when --
AM: The Hail Mary pass.
JS: Yes, the Hail Mary pass for incurable diseases. Sure
AM: As a child, I thought that the Hail Mary pass was like a problem so bad that you had to go to Confession about it, because then they could prescribe you Hail Marys and you’d have to do them. Yeah. I didn't know it was a football thing until probably I was like 17 and on Tumblr and saw it --
JS: Oh, my god.
AM: -- as related to Friday Night Lights.
JS: I'm sorry. What was that thing that it was related to?
AM: Friday Night Lights?
JS: Okay. I thought you --
AM: Is that [Inaudible21:20]?
JS: I thought you just said Friday Lights. I’m like, “That is not what is called at all.” You missed a keyword in there. Okay. Sorry. Sorry.
AM: But like it makes a certain amount of sense because people who --
JS: Sure
AM: -- were Catholics like you just think you’ve been really bad and like you're so eaten up with guilt about it, which is just your natural life state,
JS: But Irish Catholic guilt.
AM: Because you have to go to Father Gallagher --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- and talk to him about what you did wrong. He's like a kind of creepy dude. He's still alive by the way.
JS: He – I never found him kind of creepy.
AM: But, but just – just like --
JS: All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: I don't know. I just kind of --
JS: Just like the concept of confession can be creepy.
AM: I don't want to just like talk about all my – all my bad thoughts to an older guy who I'm gonna see in, in the – who I’ll see at Supermarket later.
JS: Yeah. That's true.
AM: I know. Anyway. Okay. The point being, anyway, they would prescribe you prayers and Hail Marys and like various things to do acts of Penance. And then you would be absolved of your sins. And,so, I thought that like when you have to like do the Hail Mary pass, y'all like do the Hail Mary. It's about like – it's so bad even to go to confession and like seek divine help.
JS: In the middle of a football game.
AM: Not – no. I mean just like – or just like a politician, just try something crazy and stuff.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like --
JS: Oh, my god.
AM: It must – I didn't know. He was telling me it was a kind of confession and just like try really hard. And like when --
JS: The younger you is such a fucking nerd, man. I love you.
AM: Thank you.
JS: Okay. Getting back to Mami Wata and her healing and everything after that ridiculous Hail Mary bullshit. Barren women were often associated with praying to Mami Wata, who was also supposed to be barren. However, Mami Wata was less likely to cure this affliction. Because, if a woman was to give birth and become a mother, she would be spiritually distant from Mami Wata. A woman who has a child is more likely to lose favor with the goddess by having children.
AM: Wow
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's a really interesting like complication to introduce to a goddess who is otherwise just like --
JS: Pretty dope.
AM: -- breaking the patriarchy, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And just like living her life.
JS: Right.
AM: Because I find it frustrating when there's a like spinster aunt character, who like is either evil or creepy. And that – and those characteristics are sort of chalked up to the fact that she like never married and never had children. Like those are meant to be like, “Oh, like she's unfulfilled in like the most important ways. And, so, therefore, she's like, evil/weird/creepy/kind of whatever.
JS: Wait. Breaking the societal norm, which is the same thing that happened with the Salem witch trials. Most of the women --
AM: Yes
JS: -- who were accused were ones who didn't have children.
AM: Or single, married late or were like married but like away from their husbands and stuff.
JS: Right.
AM: And, so, the point being like, if he's otherwise like really great and in charge of her own life, you know, I don't want to think that those things are only because she is like barren, You know --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and is only able or kind of excused to live his errant life because she is like physiology, you know, “incapable” --
JS: Right.
AM: -- of like living up to the expectation.
JS: Right. And I feel that, that is definitely a downside, but --
AM: On the other hand, maybe she’s just like a complicated character.
JS: Yeah. And everyone should be.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, we're going to talk a little bit about her worship now. So, her worship is extremely diverse because it spans across so many cultures and continents.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But one of the more interesting methods that her followers do is that they dance until they fall into a trance --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which makes them susceptible to being possessed by the spirit.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, Mami Wata will then come and speak through that person. At this point, she's given offerings. Usually, they are gifts of delicious food or drink, alcohol, fragrant objects like powder, incense, perfume, soap – that sort of thing. And expensive goods like jewelry. In modern worship, stuff like Coca Cola, designer perfume and fancy watches are really popular gifts.
AM: Interesting. Like the kind of fanciest imports from other places or --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- the like consumerist culture. I don't know.
JS: Yeah. Also, sunglasses are a really big one.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah. She loves a good pair of sunglasses. Mami Wata.
AM: That's amazing. It reminds me of like walking in the like giant malls of Dubai and just seeing all these like fucking incredible like Emirati women --
JS: Uhmm
AM: -- and like tourists from India, and Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and other places just like decked out in like, you know, Burberry hijab --
JS: Right.
AM: -- Dior sunglasses.
JS: Into it.
AM: Like fucking just so – like clearly so rich --
JS: Uhmm.
AM: -- and just like loving it. I don't know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's a great image.
JS: And it's really cool, right?
AM: Yeah.
JS: I do like that a lot. So, we also talked a little bit about representation of a spirit's color when we talked about the Erzulies in Haitian Voodoo.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, that's also a theme that plays with Mami Wata as well, particularly, in Nigeria. But, in other places of her worship, her devotees wear red and white to represent the duality of her. Traditionally, red represents death, destruction, heat, maleness, physicality, and power --
AM: Uhmm.
JS: -- while white represents death, but also symbolizes beauty, creation, femaleness, new life, spirituality, translucence, water, and wealth. A lot of things.
AM: That – and also that classic like, you know, rebirth, renewal, and destruction kind of cycle of death, and life, and water.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's always – every single water myth we talked about, it's been like half death and half rebirth.
JS: Yes, that is true. So, with Mami Wata, she combines the physicality and power to her followers, and then also represents that beauty, femininity, spirituality, water, and wealth. So, it's kind of like this beautiful balancing of the good with the bad --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- which I feel like represents water so well. Because you have these, you know, major cities are built by waterways because they’re ports of trade and it makes it --
AM: Power and wealth. Yeah, exactly.
JS: Right.
AM: All these things.
JS: But you're also experiencing things where, if you go swimming in the wrong river, it's riptides. It's strong currents. It's crazy animals that's gonna eat you like those anacondas.
AM: A lot of tsunamis.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Don't remind me of the anacondas, Julia.
JS: I will.
AM: And maybe that is a more positive reading of this kind of like fertility question with Mami Wata, because maybe it's about like, you know, if, if life deprives you of one kind of happiness and gift, maybe you can find it in another place. And, so, again, we see this with like the spinster aunt archetype of like maybe she doesn't have a traditional family and children, but she is like a fucking badass world traveling, like lots of hat boxes, like seeing and adventuring, and kind of doing all kinds of stuff. So, maybe it's, it's, you know, not the traditional and necessary like fertile and heteronormative kind of family happiness, but it's her own version of happiness and fulfillment.
JS: Right. And I also liked that this character who – so often women are defined by whether or not they can give birth or not.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And we have this character who represents femininity, represents beauty, and --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- you know, this opulence and wealth, and isn't able to give birth.
AM: That's right.
JS: Her followers are her children. And it's absolutely beautiful.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I love that we don't have to sacrifice one thing for another kind of in this method.
AM: For sure. And like we get jealous. Like people get jealous, you know. And, so, if the whole like appealing to her for help, and then having children, and being kind of more distant from her, you know, fair enough.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like that happens in life. We grow up. And some of your friends have kids, and some of them don't. And, you know, like maybe you don't want it to be true. But like the fact is like your relationship is different, and your lives are taking different ways. You know, I really love when like the gods display characteristics and kind of acknowledge parts of humanity that are otherwise hard for us to face up to. Whether it's, again, like jealousy, rage, you know, infertility or impotence. Like things that you don't necessarily want to, you know – you know, I don't know.
JS: Acknowledge.
AM: Acknowledge. Yeah. But, you know, they happen and like they happen to gods as well.
JS: Yeah. I think that's a really good point. One last talking point and then we can really dive into how we feel about Mami Wata.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, I was looking at – while I was doing research, I was looking at some theories as to what Mami Wata is meant to represent in the modern age. And someone was saying something about her representing the current African condition. That, in a world globalization, African cultures crave the riches of the rest of the world, but can achieve it, which sounds so --
AM: Which sounds really --
JS: -- white Eurocentric bullshit to me.
AM: Eurocentric bullshit.
JS: Thank you. That's exactly what I thought. Because what you're doing is you're taking a female spirit, who's always been associated with wealth because water is – means wealth.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Everywhere in the world, water means wealth.
AM: Whether wealth means like, like food and fish or power to power a mill or like access to global trade routes, like water equals wealth so much of the time.
JS: Right. And what they're doing is they're taking this amazing spirit, who represents that wealth and culture, and they're turning her into this almost vain, conniving character when you put her through this lens of consumerism.
AM: Actually, don't.
JS: Yeah, please don't. It's so frustrating. I was like, "Oh, wow, this is like a really interesting article." And then they started breaking this down. I'm like, "Oh, no. Fuck this shit. Like literally fuck this."
AM: On a scale of Mami Wata to Zeus, that is like a Zeus plus one.
JS: That is a Zeus plus one. Fuck father-level territory.
AM: God.
JS: No. But – so, I really want to talk about, if we're looking at a modern representation of Mami Wata, what that means to you --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- just from, you know, us talking about it in this episode?
AM: Well, at, at a basic level if Mami Wata has always represented like, you know, riches, and goodness, and wealth, and, and enjoying your life, you know, and like being successful, like, of course, that's going to look physically and then offerings and stuff different in 2017 than it would in you know 1817 or earlier. So, like, you know, if back then it was, you know, beads, and incense, and, you know, perfume, and colorful and beautiful things, and food, you know, today like, you know, perfume and watches are also in that category.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, I don't think it cheapens or demeans that tradition in any way to kind of morph the tradition to fit your current reality, which is all of mythology. That's all of what we talk about.
JS: Yeah. It reminds me of those posts where someone was talking about how, if you put phones in the hands of sculptures, suddenly these, these sculptures --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- like ancient Greek sculptures that represented, you know, female empowerment and sort of the beauty and elegance and grace of women.
AM: Through the male lens. Right.
JS: Through the male lens. If you put a phone in their hand where they're taking a selfie, suddenly, she's vain. Suddenly, she's self obsessed. Suddenly, she's --
AM: Right.
JS: -- just a terrible human being. And I feel like that is the same thing that's happening with Mami Wata when we're talking about her in a modern lens.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She's being misconstrued through the lens of modernism. And I don't like that.
AM: And I think selfie culture and kind of self care culture --
JS: I thought you – I thought you said selkie culture for a second. Like, "Oh, we're talking about selkies now."
AM: I would love to.
JS: Always.
AM: Selfie culture and self care is also really interesting lens to view this on, because one of the reasons that I love this myth so much is that she is just like a dope woman living her life, and like having male consorts, and like enjoying food, you know, and like enjoying her life.
JS: This is like enjoying carnal pleasures --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- as a whole; food, perfume, sex.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Fuck yeah.
AM: Similar to Kali where it was like a – like a goddess defined by her appetite, which I was just fucking into.
JS: Fucking love that.
AM: But that I think is why like self care has been such a big part of like the feminist internet over the last few years. And like it's a, you know, complicated subject. Like some people kind of criticize the concept of self care because it is so often like turned to a sort of consumerist calling card or vehicle.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like, hey, the world sucks, buy stuff. Like that's not – that's not the point. But the point is like shit is complicated. And, and you can like be part of the struggle. And you can be advancing good causes. And you can be like here advocating for, living for others. Like being a goddess they can serve and also be jealous, and also like carnal pleasures, and also, you know, want your followers to give you cool incense and perfume in their offering.
JS: Sure.
AM: And, so, like I am, I am just here for complicated women. I am here for complicated goddesses because one of the downsides of not seeing yourself represented in media and culture in history is that, you know, you feel pressured to live up to this – this like ideal. This like really flattened picture of what you are supposed to look like. So, whether it's, you know, Asian Americans looking for themselves in media and seeing like bit parts or funny parts, and never like the romantic lead. Right. Like that's one example. Or, you know, queer kids growing up and seeing like the effeminate gay male character. Like the botch lesbian on TV --
JS: Right.
AM: -- if we're lucky. And like those are the only examples that are available to them. Like, in a broader sense, not being able to see just like complicated figures in history who match you, you know, it sucks. And, so, to be able to like lead these myths in the way that we do and to be like this goddess is just like fucking loving it, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, also, being complicated. And, you know, she is here to like help women who are infertile. But then maybe she doesn't want to be faced with it. And maybe they are more distant from her because it rubs in the wanting that she doesn't have you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like that, that is just – to me, I'm choosing to read it as, you know, a woman who is complicated and real, and I can look up to, and be different from, and similar to, and learn from, and be inspired from. And also be inspired as to what I don't want to be. I don't want to be like a jealous person who is, you know, mad at things that my friends don't have, but like I feel that feeling sometimes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, you know, I don't know. That's my takeaway. And that's what I like
JS: That was perfect and beautiful. And, so, well said. I loved it. I honestly have nothing more to say. I think you summed up everything that I did want to say about Mami Wata.
AM: On the other hand, now I know about fucking anacondas. Thank you, Julia.
JS: You're welcome.
AM: Ughhh. God. I can't. I can't.
JS: Hey, hey.
AM: Why do they swim? Why do they swim? How do they swim?
JS: By wiggling.
AM: Oh, nooooo!
JS: Anyway, stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool. Stay out of the water.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil