Episode 32: The Butterfly Lovers (with Linda)
/Doomed love has never been so fun to talk about! Special guest Linda takes us through one of the most famous love stories in the Chinese cultural canon, with twists, turns, and detours to Dana Scully’s shoulder pads, Amanda’s graveyard traditions, and Julia’s favorite IRL treasure hunt. We promise to fill you with only a little bit of existential sadness at the end.
Our recommendations this week: focused.af and Wynonna Erp. You can listen to us praise ‘She’s the Man’ on our friend Caroline’s podcast Loose Canon, and read up on the 1994 film ‘The Lovers’ on Wikipedia or IMDB.
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. To read up on us, listen to us on other podcasts, or send us a note, just head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 32: The Butterfly Lovers with Linda.
JS: That's such a cute name for such a sad, sad story.
AM: It is super sad. It's mad tragic.
JS: It's really bad.
AM: And it also has the benefit of being a myth that you didn't know the end of it.
JS: No.
AM: So, it was really delightful to kind of watch you experience and guess like I do every week about what this myth actually is. So, Linda did a great job.
JS: Yes. Linda did amazing, and we're really excited for you to hear it. But, first, we got to take care of some stuff.
AM: Housekeeping.
JS: Yes, housekeeping. Let's look at the list.
AM: So, welcome, first and foremost, to our newest patrons: Chan, Olivia, Laura, Tristan, Amanda, not me, Madeline, John, Jessica, and Kimberly, and to MCF, who upgraded to be a $10-level patron.
JS: Killing it.
AM: Thank you. Thank you. And, as always, to our supporting producer-level patrons: LeeAnn Davis,Shannon Alford, Phil Fresh, Catherine Addington, Kristina Rogers, and Griffin Mekelburg.
JS: Our happiest butterfly people.
AM: Yes, happy green butterflies and not – and not sad white death butterflies.
JS: Yes, ideally.
AM: You'll see. Don't worry. You'll see.
JS: If you haven't been following us on Twitter, we are now on Instagram and SoundCloud. If you listen to your podcast on Soundcloud, you can now listen to this. This thing right here on SoundCloud.
AM: You can share the playlist with all our episodes to your friends. You can – you can rock out. And, on Sunday, when you are playing D&D, #SpiritsD&D with Julia, Jake, Eric Silver, former guests, and Eric Schneider, podcast editor. It's just a whole family of Spirits D&D. We were putting the, the campaign live on Instagram stories.
JS: Yes.
AM: So, you should go follow us over there @SpiritsPodcast and see behind the scenes, our drinks, our set up, fan art, and myths we love. All of it.
JS: You're gonna see some cool shit that you normally wouldn't see by this audio medium.
AM: Multimedia magic.
JS: Amanda, I want to talk about this week. What are we consuming? What are we enjoying? What's up? What are you listening to?
AM: Stuff we like corner.
JS: Yes.
AM: So, I am, number one, listening to our mutual friend, Zach Valenti's new daily podcast.
JS: It's so good guys.
AM: It is so good. Focused AF, Focused As Fuck.
JS: It's like just getting to spend the day with Zach Valenti, and everyone should want to do that.
AM: I mean I want to do that every day.
JS: Yes.
AM: And I mean,on the days that I do, it's amazing. But, on the days that I don't, I can listen to the podcast.
JS: I know. It's really great.
AM: He's doing a daily podcast, which is just, A --
JS: Amazing.
AM: -- amazing output and, B, he's actually really good at podcasting.
JS: Oh, he is.
AM: So, it's, you know, great audio. Very cool. It's cool just like hearing New York represented through someone else. I don't know. It's awesome. So, that's my recommendation for this week.
JS: All right. Cool. My recommendation for this week is a show on Syfy Channel. It's also on Netflix. Called Wynonna Earp.
AM: How do you spell that?
JS: W - Y - N - O - N - N - A --
AM: Yep.
JS: E - A - R - P.
AM: Awesome.
JS: And it's about --
AM: It’s a worger.
JS: It is a worger. It is a worger. It is amazing. It is about a woman who turns 27 and a curse comes upon her. It's like Western and supernatural.
AM: Whoa.
JS: And there's demon fighting. And there's a dude who's ageless. And it's amazing, and there's witches. And I just --
AM: Whoa. I'm amazed that I'm only hearing about this right now.
JS: It's really good. And there's like adorable bi-people and just like – oh, god, it's so good.
AM: Sweet.
JS: And like women owning up to their sexuality, and not being slut shamed. And it's so great.
AM: Man.
JS: And I love it so much.
AM: That's all a girl wants.
JS: And like also dealing with like PTSD and like really like impressive issues for a sci-fi show. It's --
AM: Awesome.
JS: -- awesome.
AM: Ugh. One of my favorite things about the show, Elementary, which I am like such a huge fan of, is their like nuance depiction of recovery, and friendship, and addiction, and forgiveness, and like boundaries. And just seeing healthy relationships or people just like dealing with their shit is one of my favorite things in media.
JS: We had a great response to the past two weeks, where we've done Myth Chat Monday, which is something we do on Twitter, and I extended it over to Facebook last week.
AM: So, yeah, if you're not following us @SpiritsPodcasts, what are you doing?
JS: Yeah. Guys, come on. What are you doing? But what I would love to do, because you guys inspired us with all your cool hometown urban legends --
AM: Y'all have some creepy shit in your hometowns.
JS: I love it. I want to do a hometown urban legends listener selection.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, what you guys can do is you can send us through our email, through our website, on Twitter DM I guess if you want it to.
AM: Or Facebook message.
JS: Or Facebook message. Send us your stories, and we will read them in an awesome extra bonus episode or whatever.
AM: Yeah. Let us know if you want us to read your name or just refer to you anonymously or by your first name. But we have so many cool stories to share in our inboxes, and we are really, really excited. But we need enough of them to fill up a whole little bonus episode so send them in.
JS: Yes.
AM: So, without further ado, enjoy Spirits Episode 32: The Butterfly Lovers with Linda.
Intro Music
AM: Linda, thank you so much for joining us here on Spirits to tell us what is, apparently, going to be a quite depressing story about love.
Linda: You know, it's what I live for. To find happiness and come share it wherever I possibly can.
JS: Nice. Good. Good. Good.
AM: I think we're going to be friends.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, I really appreciate that. But what, what is the background to the story? Why, why is this something that you decided to bring to us today?
Linda: So, the origin of this come in – I'm a first generation immigrant. I was actually born in Shanghai in China. I lived there until I was about three before we immigrated to the US. And one of the things that always came up – I grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina. Grits forever.
JS: Grits forever.
AM: Is, is like what kind of barbecue you'd like, a question that is divisive? Is that, you know --
Linda: No. Because there's only one correct answer.
AM: So, yes.
Linda: And it's called Eastern Carolina vinegar-based barbecue.
AM: Definitely. Yeah.
JS: So, that's a yes.
Linda: Everybody else is wrong. But it was always a really interesting exercise when talking about sort of your early cultural influences like what stories you remember and what sorts of things you imprinted on as like a childish duckling.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: And like a lot of my friends --
AM: All children are ducklings. That's, that's actually the key to child raising.
Linda: Of course. Quack. But like, while my friends were watching Cinderella and like getting a Belle ball gown and things like that, the very first story – like the very first story that I remember consuming as a kid – and we're talking about when I was three years old at maximum sitting in front of a crummy television in our apartment in Shanghai – is from one of the classics of Chinese literature, the Dream of the Red Mansions. Now, don't worry. I'm like not smart. I'm still pretty illiterate. Sorry, mom. Like I wasn't reading this book. I was watching the 1980s television series of this.
AM: But that's how we take in our archetypes, right?
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Like the same sort of idea of like the, you know, Hansel and Gretel --
Linda: Yeah.
AM: -- or like the faded love or, you know, Sleeping Beauty type things, it doesn't have to be the source material. It's just kind of the archetype that's told over and over again.
Linda: Yeah. And the --
JS: Okay.
Linda: -- many, many interpretations of it. Like there have been dozens of probably films and attempts to tell the story, which is extremely sweeping. And it's about a wealthy family of Imperial courtiers in – basically, in classical China, right? Like during the Ming Dynasty I think is when it is. Again, sorry, mom.
JS: I cannot fact check you.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: It's gonna be okay.
Linda: I'm shaming myself on this podcast some more again. It's about this massive family, all of their trials, tribulations, and scandals. And the very first memory of storytelling I have as a little kid is of watching the lead female character from this series dying in the snow under a plum tree --
AM: No.
Linda: -- mourning her lost love, who is her cousin who is her last love.
AM: Okay. Good start. Good start.
Linda: Who was her last love because he has been tricked into marrying their other cousin --
JS: Yeah.
Linda: -- by their family who has told him that he's marrying the girl of his dreams who has just died under a plum tree.
AM: Classic.
JS: Cool. Cool. Cool.
Linda: So – and this whole story wraps up, many, many chapters later, with him running away to be a monk, the whole family collapsing, and several of his sisters becoming prostitutes.
JS: Obviously.
AM: Nice.
Linda: So – and before the people listening to this are like, "Umm. Actually, I am aware that the original author never finished the story. And that this --
AM: Oh, did he like die before?
Linda: Yes. He --
AM: Oh, man.
Linda: He ate it before he finished it. And somebody else sort of made up their own ending. And it has been only the most controversial thing in Chinese literature ever. There are probably people with like 15 PhDs writing --
AM: Nice.
Linda: -- about whether or not this ending is actually valid.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I love that shit.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: That is my favorite thing in the entire world.
AM: I love it because it is futile. Like we'll never know.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: We'll never know if Shakespeare actually authored the plays that he said to have or if he had collaborators for more than we think he did.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Like people will like get into fistfights over this stuff. And historians will like snark at each other in the footnotes of their monographs. And like that is the kind of stuff I live for.
Linda: I just find it really fascinating because, as a person, I just don't understand that mentality. Like, "Okay. Why does it matter? The story is the story, right? It doesn't – it – I, I just can't understand the academic pettiness over this.
JS: I – you know, I totally get that though. I totally get the academic pettiness. I get the like desire for there to be more. Like there was a really – I'm not gonna say shitty book. It was an okay book called Mr. Penumbra's 24-Hour Bookstore. An okay book, but, basically, the idea was they were trying to solve this riddle of this guy, who wrote down a book, and trying to solve what it meant.
AM: Yes, I --
JS: Terrible ending, but whatever.
AM: I thought it was a pretty entertaining book.
JS: Okay.
AM: So, with a pretty bad ending. I'm sorry, Robin Sloan. Please love us. But, yes, the whole idea is like it was like a cult of people that must have sprung up around like solving the mystery of a book.
JS: Right. And that's like a real thing that people do. Like I just heard about this thing. It was called – it's a book. It's called The Secret. It's not the one about individualization.
AM: It's not about, about manifesting your dreams into reality?
JS: No, it's not. So, it's about this, this --
AM: But what is the secret? What is it?
JS: It's about this guy --
AM: What is the secret?
JS: -- shush – this guy, in 1987, created this book that was 12 or 13 photos and poetry that goes along with it.
AM: Okay. Already looked.
JS: And, basically, basically, he puts out these photos and poetry are clues to these 12 or 13 boxes that I've hidden across North America. If you find the box --
AM: Wow.
JS: -- there's a key inside. If you bring the key to me, I will give you a jewel that is worth $10,000.
AM: Back when – back when you just publish your address on the internet.
JS: I like that it's totally fine. I think you'd have to write in like with a photo of the thing, and then he would --
AM: Oh. And they would just like show up at his doorstep. Like, Okay --
JS: No. No. No.
AM: -- what's up?
Linda: Yeah. This, this really shows the differences in personality, because I'm mostly sitting here thinking, "How many jewel's worth $10,000?"
JS: So many jewels.
AM: Personal. Wow.
JS: So, only two of the boxes have in fact --
AM: Yeah. It's quite a large advance. Like yeah.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: Yeah. So, only two of the boxes have been found. The guy died in 2005 in like a somewhat suspicious car crash --
AM: What?
JS: -- out in Long Island. Yeah. He's from Long Island. Of course, he is because --
AM: Obviously. Obviously.
JS: -- only crazy people come from Long Island. And, so --
AM: It's like just learn German or something,
JS: Right.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: But this guy – you know, this guy has created this online community of people who are still trying to find these boxes and some of them are really close to being found. Some of them, they have no idea. And it's just really cool. And it's all about that human idea that people are trying to solve mysteries even if they're not really there.
AM: Yeah. And to leave mysteries to be solved, right? Like this guy, you know, died 12 years ago, and still people are talking about him and trying to solve his puzzle.
JS: All about it.
AM: Pieces of his like, you know, life's work are still like buried in the ground somewhere. I don't know. That's what we try – we try to achieve permanence by like messing with the order of the universe.
JS: Yes, but I'm all about it.
Linda: I don't know. I think it's one of the more charming elements of humanity. Like we cannot help these sort of idiosyncratic tendencies that we have, where we're like, I – this doesn't bother me. And then it's just going to bother you, and bother you, and bother, and bother you. And you just have to solve the question.
AM: I know. Ugh, there's so many good examples of that. It looks like early internet you know text puzzles and --
Linda: Oh, dear god.
AM: -- and cryptographic whatever.
JS: All about that.
Linda: Or like the entire Reddit detective threads, right?
AM: Yeah.
Linda: Like, anytime, we decide to solve a mystery --
AM: I, I wasn't gonna say it, because I just find them so pleasurable to read.
Linda: Yes.
AM: But also it gets super destructive and creepy.
JS: Yes.
AM: So, you know, take it all with a grain of salt.
Linda: Also, FYI everyone listening to this, the first two seasons of Unsolved Mysteries is now on Amazon Prime. Knock yourselves out, kiddos.
AM: Tip from me to you.
Linda: There's actually a lot of really beautiful imagery associated with her like a very early on in the story, and she's like 14 at this age. She's like burying plum blossoms that have fallen, where she talks about how tragic it is and how fleeting beauty and youth are.
AM: It's a metaphor.
Linda: Yeah. And she just mourns it. Anyway, she eats it at 16.
JS: Awww.
AM: Awww.
Linda: Classic Chinese. It's what we do.
AM: Well, Julia was also like 12 or something.
Linda: I know. It's really upsetting. I should try not to think --
AM: The second someone told me that I was like, "Oh, no, why'd you go and do that?"
JS: Yeah, I know. Like I don't like to say anymore. Or like Amanda and I just want to see Natasha Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812, and they're like, "Oh, she's 16." I'm like, "Why?"
Linda: Yeah.
JS: Why is this thing happening?
AM: To me, it's a bit like War and Peace, a woman who is betrothed and like has her first like, you know, feeling of sexuality.
JS: Sexual awakening?
AM: Right. And it's like, "Whoa," and then like --
JS: And then just fucked everything.
AM: -- or like a married courtier takes advantage of her and – anyway, it's, it's classic like Russian tragedy.
Linda: Of course.
AM: But, yeah, why? I don't know. At 15, I was like painting my nails blue. I wasn't like – like a – like a tragic nymph dying for true love.
Linda: I don't know. I feel like at 15 was around the – around the age I spent a year convinced I was a lesbian because I was so into Dana Scully.
AM: You know, we've all been there. We've all been there.
JS: I was – everyone's there.
Linda: Yeah. I mean --
AM: If I had known The X Files before 21, that too would have been my face.
Linda: I was like I remember really distinctly watching a number of episodes. And I was like, well, I guess I'm gay.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: Like it's just she's, definitely, the best part of the show. It's just her.
JS: I guess I'm into it now.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. And it's just she's so good.
Linda: I know. And I spend all day fantasizing about --
AM: Even the bad --
Linda: -- how pretty she is. It just makes sense. Shoulder pads.
JS: Shoulder pads. It’s such an aggressive look.
AM: On the other hand, like everyone wants that – those shoulder pads to be off of you. Like let's just get you out of the shoulder pads, hon. Yeah. Like that works out best for everybody.
Linda: Oh, my god. Okay. Speaking of love.
JS: Good transition. Go ahead.
Linda: Good transition, right? Smooth.
AM: Love, plums and shoulder pads.
Linda: That's right.
AM: Spirits Podcast.
Linda: So, speaking of love, the actual story I ended up deciding that I would come here and tell is probably the most famous Chinese love story of all time.
AM: Nice.
Linda: And it, hilariously, has very little Western footprint at all.
AM: Good.
Linda: So, this is called Liang Zhu in Chinese, which is the surnames of the two characters in question. And it's probably more famously known as the Butterfly Lovers, which is actually the name of a piece of music that was composed about their tragic love story afterward. Obviously, it was tragic.
JS: I was gonna say it sounds like a Coldplay song.
AM: Sounds tragic AF.
Linda: Yeah. And the other really interesting thing about this story is that it forms like a template for a lot of things that you will see in Asian storytelling, particularly, in Chinese storytelling in even modern day things. And you'll just like listen to the story and go down a checklist of like yep, yep, yep, cross dressing, weirdness, terrible families --
AM: Yehey.
Linda: -- death. Like all of the stuff comes up, which is awesome.
AM: Yeah. Like you listen to a story at the beginning and you're like, "Well, I guess that we're not done yet because we haven’t gone to the cross dressing.
Linda: Yeah. Like obsessive tiger mom focused on education. Yeah. It's already here. So, just to get us started, our lead characters are Zhu Yingtai, which is our girl. So, we'll call her Yingtai for the course of the story.
JS: Cool.
Linda: And our dude is named Liang Shanbo, and was called Shanbo. So, the background is Zhu Yingtai is actually the daughter of an extremely wealthy family. So --
AM: Sounds like she has a lot to lose.
Linda: Sounds like it. She's the daughter of an extremely wealthy family, but her mother is extremely well educated and she wants the same for her daughter. And, also, if she's going to be anybody's wife, she needs to be a very erudite one. So, the only way, of course, to get her sort of beyond the traditional female education of like some poetry and embroidery and things like that --
AM: Let me guess. Cross dressing?
Linda: Yes.
AM: Yes.
Linda: So, her mom binds her breasts, teaches her how to dress up like a boy, and they send her off to like a boys school. And she lives as a man for several years --
AM: Wow.
Linda: -- studying there. Now, while she is at the school, she meets Liang Shanbo, who is actually the poor scholarship student.
AM: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Linda: Like he is there on merit alone.
JS: You were just like --
AM: So excited.
JS: -- checking up to every like part of – if I was writing fan fiction, this would be what I would be writing about.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: I mean just wait for it. So, poor scholarship boy. And the two of them form this tremendous friendship. Now, there are different versions of how this goes. Some stories tell that – some versions of the story say that he figured out Zhu Yingtai was actually a girl earlier on before she ever left the school.
AM: It wasn't gay, guys. Don't worry. It wasn't gay.
Linda: And other versions say that he didn't realize until later when he decided to pay a visit to her family. But, either way, the two of them fall passionately in love. So, the challenge here is the following. He is dirt poor and a nobody. And she, because of both birth and her family's aspirations, is really fated for a very, very – a very high level marriage to which that he --
AM: Right.
Linda: -- could never aspire to. So, one of the things that's also important to know for the context of the story is that China was one of the first countries in the world that had a civil service exam.
AM: Yeah, it was.
Linda: So, even though he --
AM: Yeah. Good. Fucking administrated so well, god.
JS: Amanda remembers that from World History. That's about it.
AM: I do.
JS: Nerd shit for life.
Linda: So --
AM: Homework is always what got me.
Linda: It's really good. It's really good.
AM: The war is like, oh, no. Whatever. Whatever. Get back to the paperwork. I love it.
Linda: So, even if Shanbo was dirt poor and came from nothing, he could test into the bureaucracy and eventually hold ever higher levels of power within the government --
AM: Yeah.
Linda: -- based solely on his wits. So, his plan was that he was going to take the civil service exam and place really high.
JS: Then I assume that he doesn't because you said that's what his plan was.
Linda: Well, he's going to place really high. And then he's going to take his newly acquired bureaucratic status and the promise of future advancement. And then go to her family and ask for her hand in marriage
AM: Make sense.
JS: Good plan.
Linda: So, the version that I always grew up with was they discussed this. This was their plan. So, after Yingtai had been taken home by her family – so, the plan was that he was going to take this exam. And he was going to score really high. He was going to become a high level bureaucrat. And then he was going to go to her family and asked for her hand in marriage. After Yingtai gets taken home by her family, she's awaiting his arrival. And he's going home to study for this test.
AM: Sounds like something's gonna go real wrong.
JS: Something's gonna go wrong. The family's going – might – I want to take a guess. The family is going to have someone waiting for her to get married to before he's able to take his test.
AM: Hitch her before he can get it.
Linda: Ding, ding, ding.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes.
Linda: So, when she gets home – when she gets home, the family already has someone in mind --
JS: Of course.
AM: Yes.
Linda: -- that they would like her to marry. And she is ardently against this, right? She is very upfront saying that like she has fallen in love with someone else.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: That he is taking the exam right now. He's going to be the top scorer. And then he'll be a bureaucrat, and he'll be totally worthy of her. Screw you guys. I'm going to marry my boyfriend.
AM: Also, like it must have been so tricky having lived as a man for several years and like enjoying the male privilege.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like having your opinion count for stuff. You know, you can't just step back from that.
Linda: It's, it's a little bit different than that. So, I would say that she did enjoy male privilege while she was living as a man, but I don't know if her opinion counted for much.
AM: True.
Linda: Because the way the tutelage happened in like the school is very much the same way that Chinese school still runs today, where it's like a lot of memorization and people are mean to you.
JS: Yes.
AM: Gotcha. So, she just – like the card to enter was just --
AM: Yeah.
AM: -- the male dress.
Linda: I mean she – but she was also away from home, right?
AM: Yeah.
Linda: You have to understand that like these daughters of really wealthy households, oftentimes, never left the curated gardens of their homes.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: So, she not only saw the world, she saw the world unfettered by her family. And she couldn't be monitored. You know, she didn't have to embroider anything for years.
AM: Amazing.
JS: Just, just skipped on those embroidery lessons.
Linda: No. She got to – she got to like wear pants.
AM: Learn everything they can feed.
Linda: I don't know lots of things.
JS: Wearing pants, man.
AM: Every – every day I put on my pants, I go, "Thank you, foremothers."
Linda: Yes, exactly. So, she's sitting there fighting the good fight trying to like hold out on this relationship while he's taking the exam. Of course, he scores really high. He gets a great posting. But, when he brings his meager bride gift to the family to try and make his appeal --
AM: Oh, no.
Linda: -- her family is like, "No effing, thank you." And basically run him out of town, and throw him into a ditch, and have a bunch of people beat the crap out of him.
JS: Damn, son. That's violent. Just say, no. Just say no.
AM: Oh, man. That's a no and don’t come back.
Linda: I know. It's very rude. So, he eventually gets, you know, like collected out of this ditch and dragged back home.
JS: Oh, it's nice.
Linda: Dragged back home. But he's basically destroyed as a person. Like he's very injured. He's heartbroken. And she's also furious, because, obviously, she knows that they've hurt her true love. And her family doesn't care at this point. They're like he's out of the – he's out of the way. We've agreed to this marriage contract with this other wealthy person. So, we are going to make this happen. And, while she's still trying to fight this as much as she can and hold out, he unfortunately gets an infection and dies from his injuries.
JS: Nooo!
AM: Nooo!
Linda: Yeah. He dies from his injuries. And his poor mother, who was the only surviving member of his family --
AM: Oh, my god.
Linda: Already widowed. Only son.
AM: Ugh!
Linda: I know. Just to like – just twist the knife a little.
AM: That's it. That's it. That's it.
Linda: Buries him. Now, traditional Chinese – to give you some – a visual on this, traditional Chinese burials are not like a flat grave or a mausoleum. They typically do a mound burial. So, it's like a giant mound of earth and there will be like a little concrete board like right in front with the name and where you can leave offerings and things like that. So, when Yingtai hears this, she's obviously completely heartbroken. She starts crying. She doesn't stop crying. So, during this point, her parents are like, "Whatever. Her guy is dead. So, let's start preparing the marriage."
AM: Oh, no.
Linda: So, all throughout the process --
AM: Don't, don't mind the crying bride in the corner.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: You should be a little upset for her. Please.
Linda: So, all the while she's crying, she's crying, she's crying, they're doing the marital preparations. And her mother, at this point, is starting to feel a little bit of guilt about the way that this entire --
JS: Maybe that's good, mom.
Linda: -- situation has gone down. And she basically says to her daughter, you know, the night before they're about to send off her wedding palanquin to her new husband like --
JS: Wait. I'm sorry. What was that wedding that's used again?
AM: Wedding pelican?
JS: Because that's what I heard. And, when I heard wedding pelican, I'm like, "I'm sorry. Is this like that I don't know now?"
Linda: Yeah. We just like stick a girl in the mouth and then --
AM: No. I was like, "Oh, okay. So, like the wedding gifts have to be small enough to fit in the pelican's mouth." Well, I guess that makes sense.
JS: No. No.
Linda: The wedding palanquin.
JS: Okay. Palanquin.
Linda: Palanquin. A wedding palanquin.
JS: Just to clarify.
AM: What is that?
Linda: It's – gosh, I – you know what? That's a really interesting question. I don't know how to explain. It's basically – in Chinese, it's called a Jiàozi. But it's like a man powered like --
AM: Just like litter?
Linda: It's, it's like a litter, but it's like you have a little booth. Like you sit inside --
AM: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Linda: -- of a little booth, and there's like two – like some – four guys carry you.
AM: Okay.
JS: Okay.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: That probably actually is the word for it, but I just never knew that before.
Linda: I mean, it's a very fancy version of a litter.
JS: I just remembered why I knew that word. And it's because of Steven Universe. And we can move on now
AM: They must not have gotten there yet when we watched.
JS: No, we haven't. It was like one of the most recent episodes. It's good. Okay. Sorry.
Linda: So, they're getting ready to send her off on her wedding palanquin. Soon, they're like how can we make you stop crying. Like, yeah, I feel sort of bad that --
AM: Bring back my love.
Linda: -- as a consequence of my choices, you are suffering. So, Yingtai agrees. She basically says like, "Look, I will consent to this marriage, but my last request is this. On the way to my new husband's home, I want the wedding palanquin to go past Shanbo's grave because I want to burn some money for him. And I want to say my last respects.”
AM: Julia's shaking her head superfluously.
JS: No. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. You don't – nope.
AM: She knows that this is a bad idea.
JS: Just bad. Just, just --
AM: Close the wound. Just close the door.
Linda: She's so – she's so narratively intelligent.
JS: But --
AM: This is what you're here for.
JS: No. This is what I'm here for.
Linda: You just know.
AM: I’m here to mishear words and make jokes about them.
JS: To be fair, I didn't go out with pelican first.
AM: I'm --
JS: It wasn't just you.
AM: I think you saw me go, "What? You have wedding pelicans?"
JS: Both important skills.
AM: How good would that be?
Linda: Yeah. I mean the best part of this is I don't actually know whether or not pelicans are native and to China at all.
JS: I don't know that's either. I will Google that later.
Linda: We'll put it in the show notes. So, her mother agrees. She thinks that it's fine. Fine enough. We'll do this. And, so, the wedding procession goes. On the day of the procession, she comes out of the wedding palanquin. In Chinese weddings, you don't wear white. You wear red. It's because there once was a really greedy god who liked to steal all the hot chicks on their wedding day, and the only color that he can't see through his red.
AM: Love it.
JS: That's wonderful. Love it. Yeah. Yeah.
Linda: It's fantastic. When you see --
AM: If only there was like a style of clothing that Zeus didn't like --
Linda: I know.
AM: -- you know, so he --
JS: Zeus just likes women.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: And some guys.
AM: And suddenly like [Inaudible 24:55] spread across.
Linda: And some guys. And some guys. Well, Zeus is like can't stop, won't stop when it comes to [Inaudible 25:00].
AM: I know. I love it. I love it.
JS: Oh, it's just like, I'm a swan now. Let's fuck.
Linda: I'm a swan. I'm a ball. Let me pee on you. Like let's just make it all happen guys.
JS: And it wasn't let me pee on you to be fair. He was literally a golden shower.
Linda: Is that better or is that worse?
JS: No. It's not better, but at least it's not urine.
Linda: That's what you think.
JS: I mean. Yeah.
AM: So, our main girl is wearing red, and she's not married yet, right?
Linda: No.
AM: She's on her way to be married.
Linda: She's, she's on the way to the wedding.
JS: This is like her taking the limo to the church.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: But stopped at --
AM: At the limo.
Linda: -- at the graveyard --
JS: Graveyard first.
Linda: -- on the way to the church.
JS: Just your quick little stop off at the graveyard.
Linda: Yes. This is like a really interesting mental image that you're creating here where like this girl climbs out of a bird's mouth. Like --
JS: Birds.
AM: He's writing it – like writing it and all the stuff. Like her, her like wedding – what do you call that?
JS: Her trousseau I guess.
AM: Like, like the chest of important things.
JS: Oh, the dowry?
Linda: The chest?
AM: The dowry. Yeah. Like the dowry chest. The whole chest is like in the pelican's mouth.
Linda: Nice.
AM: Anyway, that's just me.
Linda: This is some serious [Inaudible 25:56] shit happening right now.
JS: Oh, my god.
AM: Listen, listen, my brain spins the shit out immediately --
Linda: It's all gold.
AM: -- upon mishearing it.
Linda: It's all gold. It's all gold.
AM: However, the kind of like visiting the graveyard on the way to a happy thing, my family does all the time. Like my, my grandparents on my Irish side are buried in like --
JS: Oh, my god.
AM: -- in like – in the town where all my cousins and aunts and uncles have gotten married, and like all the cousins have been baptized, and their kids have been christened or whatever.
Linda: It's the most Irish thing ever.
JS: And, so --
AM: And, so, on the way to the wedding or the baptism, you just stop off at the graveyard. And say hi to grandma and grandpa, trim the shrub, and continue on your way.
JS: You trim a shrub in your wedding dress or tux.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Do you like pause and commemorate a potato famine? Like what is it? This is amazing.
AM: No. They, they died after just fleeing like economic depression.
JS: Oh, okay.
Linda: It's different.
JS: Like you do.
AM: But, you know, you just – you just stop off, say hi, and go. And I didn't realize it was a weird thing until this moment.
JS: Yeah. It's a little weird.
Linda: It's not – it's not weird. It's, it's eccentric.
JS: I can't remember the last time I went to a graveyard like with a specific purpose.
AM: You should come with me next time.
JS: No, thank you.
AM: We have a baptism coming soon.
JS: They make me feel awkward. How do I respond to this? Anyway.
AM: Anyway.
JS: Yeah. We’re back.
Linda: So, she climbs out of her wedding palanquin. She's in front of the burial mound of her best beloved.
AM: Oh, god.
Linda: And she's still wearing all the red of her wedding.
AM: Ugh.
Linda: But, in China, whereas red is the color that you were to get married, white is actually the color of mourning. So, she pulls off her veil – her red veil. And she pulls off the red overcoat of her wedding gown. And she's wearing all white in full mourning underneath.
AM: Yes.
Linda: And she runs out to the grave, where everyone thinks she's just going to be burning some paper money so that he has it in the afterlife or whatever.
AM: Oh, no. Does she throw herself on the grave and kill herself?
JS: There you go.
Linda: No, she doesn't, because this is China and we're as extra, TM. So, instead, the grave opens.
JS: Oh, yes.
Linda: And she throws herself into it, and it closes behind her.
AM: What?
JS: I'm all about that. That is so good.
Linda: And the version of the story that I grew up with is that there was no trace of her. Like she just – the grave consumed her so that she could be with her love. And that their souls turned into a pair of butterflies. And that they fleeted off together.
JS: Yes.
AM: Whoa.
JS: I'm so about this story.
AM: And I love that. And I – also, I love stories where like the elemental forces --
Linda: Yes.
AM: -- are on our heroes aside.
Linda: Yeah. And I think it's one of those things that's really interesting where, yes, it's a very human story, obviously. But it also has this underlying – elemental is really a good way to say it. Like an elemental mysticism because there's not really going to be intervention of a specific god or goddess. It's just that the forces of karmic fate are going to be aware that some things need to be righted. And, so, like this is one of the very first love stories that I grew up consuming. And then I --
AM: Yeah. Sounds like very realistic expectations for you.
Linda: I know.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: I mean like, if I don't find a man who is willing to get the shit beaten out of him by my family and then have a grave that will consume me so we can be together forever, it is just not --
AM: Not gonna work.
Linda: -- worth it.
AM: Also, let's just observe her epic like day to night transition of the like wedding --
JS: Whoosh. Got it.
AM: -- finery to like dying with the stress --
Linda: Hero of it.
AM: -- to haunt you thereafter.
JS: Yes. So good. All about it.
AM: She's, she's, she's --
Linda: She's turned up to 11.
AM: She is.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: She is. The story is turned up to 11. Let's be real here.
AM: Yeah. I love it.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: It would have been 12 if they were pelicans. It would have been 12 if they were pelicans.
Linda: So, this is one of those stories that's very similar to like Romeo and Juliet has in terms of Western canon, where you can see echoes of it in everything.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: But it's also been reinterpreted in a – in a million different ways. There were – there was like a movie made in Hong Kong in like the 90s, which is what I grew up watching a lot of. There have been other movies made subsequently. There have been television serieses. It's been told a million and a half times. And it's always this, this template story about a sheltered girl who freed from the confines of her female requirements, falls in love with someone. And it's always this like – there's always this weird sort of subtext of like, "It's not gay because she's actually girl." But it's also interesting, right?
JS: This is my favorite of all subtexts.
Linda: But it's also really interesting, right? That like, A, that education plays such a fundamental role in this.
AM: Yeah. Classic here.
Linda: And also – and, also, the loss of your female requirements like the loss of like the rules around being a woman is what actually let her fall so passionately in love. And that they developed this abiding relationship when you know, sexual love may or may not have even been part of the initial conversation.
AM: Yeah. It feels so strong and so be pure.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Right. And so – and so worth waiting for.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And there's also some, some element of like freed from expectation.
Linda: Yes.
AM: The, the bonds that you make and the things that you discover are so much like pure and stronger.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Because like they wouldn't have been in the same room together if, you know, there wasn't some scholarship for him to get into that room where he wasn't supposed to be. And, if she hadn't, you know, elaborately fooled the system to get into where she also wasn't supposed to be.
Linda: Yeah. And I think that – but what fundamentally brings it back down to the very sort of like depressingly earthy Chinese interpretation of things is that, even though like, at no point in the story, do you think that their love is foolish or misguided, like you feel for them. Like these two people are genuinely in love. But that doesn't change the fundamental reality that they can never be together on this earthly plane. Like he is not meant for her. She is not meant for him. There was no way it was ever going to happen. But they do find a way to be together. And it is in death.
AM: Just not on the earthly plane.
Linda: Yeah. And it's different than Romeo and Juliet, where they – in a weird way – and I mean like this is coming from many years later from first having heard the story. But like it almost feels like you read the story. Like they're 14. They're really impetuous. Like they're making these foolish decisions to kill themselves without having any real understanding of the consequences.
AM: Just trusting some friar in the woods, getting your timing all mixed up.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: And like, yeah, like they create their own tragedy.
Linda: Yeah. Whereas, he dies as a consequence of like this plan that they had shared, but just as a tragic side effect of it. And then she makes the deliberate act that this is – this is the fate she chooses.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: So, as tragic as it is, at least, they made this with their eyes open and not being 14 years old and too dumb to live.
AM: Yeah. And in – and, in so much Shakespeare, like human faults and kind of misguided plans meet with like the irony of fate. So, like you'll make a plan with best intentions and fate will intervene so that the plan goes wrong, and fate steps in like in the right way to make your wrongness like extremely, you know, narratively suitable. But, here, like the plan was sound. The family's rationale was reasonable. And like everyone just acting in their best interest. So, it wasn't like a – like the horse carts missed each other.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: You know, like the letters didn't get there in time. Like it was, you know, just, just not possible --
Linda: Yeah.
AM: -- in the – you know, the society they were living in.
Linda: Yes.
JS: Sorry. I have a question really quick. Is there any sort of subtext to the story or like implied if she had just maintained in her place and had not like overstepped her female boundaries that like this tragedy wouldn't have happened?
Linda: I find – I mean it could be, right? Because I've grown up with these stories like third hand through movies and from my parents' retellings. But I find it difficult to think that's intended.
JS: Right.
Linda: Because there's no way the story could have happened at all if she had ever stayed within her female boundaries.
AM: Right. He wasn't like their groundskeeper.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: Yeah. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like a cautionary tale.
Linda: No.
JS: Because I feel like that would have taken away from the story.
Linda: I don't – yeah. I definitely feel like it isn't. I don't feel like there's – I think the interesting thing about a lot of stories that I grew up with is that there aren't – there isn't like a moral attached to this. You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah. It isn't complicated like it sometimes is.
Linda: Yeah. There's like nothing – like you hear the story. Like what do you learn out of it? It's like everyone can sometimes do their best and, as you said, act in their best interest in ways that make sense. And things can still end up in horrible configurations that are genuinely sad that you're – you look at it, and you're like, "This was sort of unavoidable, right?" Like there was nothing you could do about this. Well, maybe if she stayed in her proper female role, this wouldn't have happened. They wouldn't have met. But her mother was the one who was wanting.
AM: Right.
Linda: And her parents were the ones --
AM: Yeah.
Linda: -- who agreed that she should go to the school. It's not like she ran away to do it.
JS: Right.
Linda: But she did it with their full consented encouragement.
AM: Yeah. And, from the parents point of view, they're like, "Well, you just had a dope education. Like I'm so glad you had this great relationship, but like, now – now, we're back, you know."
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Now, we're like living our lives.
Linda: Times up.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, again, everyone's acting in their best interest --
Linda: Yeah.
AM: --and shit’s sad, anyway,
JS: Yeah.
Linda: It was – so, it was really interesting to me. When I got to the states and all of the stories were like, "Everyone is alive at the end of this? Wait. People get married at the end of love stories?"
AM: You can – you can try and it works? Like --
Linda: Yeah. Like this – this is – this is all very simplistic actually.
JS: One character died, and he got trampled by a – by wildebeest?
Linda: Wildebeest?
JS: Weird.
AM: What are you guys referencing?
Linda: Lion King.
JS: The Lion King, Amanda.
AM: I haven't seen it since like 1985. So --
JS: Oh, okay.
Linda: You need to revisit that.
AM: I will probably.
Linda: Because there is nothing like watching lions fall in love and being like, "Am I a furry?"
AM: I know who this is.
JS: Furry. No.
Linda: This is a little upsetting. Like there's a scene where they're like making bedroom eyes at each other. And I was like, "You're cats."
JS: Like why do I find Matthew Broderick as a lion hot?
Linda: It's just – it's just really --
JS: What's happening?
Linda: It's really upsetting because when you're an adult you're like, "These are animals."
JS: Right. That's like – everyone's like, "Wow. The animated Fox Robin Hood is really hot." I'm like, "Umm. At least, he still looked humanoid."
AM: Right.
Linda: No, I think that would mess a lot of people up.
JS: It did actually.
Linda: I think a lot of people --
AM: No judgment. If that's your thing, that's your thing. I'm just saying not – not mine.
Linda: It's also problematically reinforced why Zootopia.
JS: Because you didn't watch the movie yet.
AM: No, I didn't.
Linda: Right.
JS: Yes, that did make it worse.
Linda: Nick Wilde is foxy.
AM: Hey.
JS: He's a fox.
Linda: And you're like, "Oh, he's a cartoon fox."
AM: I put that together. I put that together.
Linda: This is bad.
AM: Oh, boy, I have a feeling that media was very influential to your like imprinting on romantic objects.
Linda: I just don't know.
JS: I'm gonna show my hand as a 12-year-old anime fan for a second.
Linda: Oh, my god. Yes, I want to hear this so much.
AM: Okay. Linda is here for this.
JS: Because this story sounds a lot like Ouran High School Host Club or a bit like --
AM: But like this does not sound like Ouran High School Host Club at all.
JS: The beginning part where it's the cross dressing --
AM: Yes.
Linda: Okay.
JS: -- and the scholarship students.
Linda: Okay.
JS: And them falling in love even though one's a dude and one's a girl.
Linda: Yes.
AM: Also, She's the Man.
JS: She's totally gender fluid. And it's awesome.
AM: She's [Inaudible 36:29].
JS: But there's also like that idea of like sexuality and also different --
Linda: Yes.
JS: -- where She's the Man doesn't have that so much.
AM: Yes.
JS: She's the Man, there's no scholarship kid and, you know --
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of class --
JS: -- kind of [Inaudible 36:40].
AM: Right. The kind of class --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- dynamics aren't there. We – Julia and I did guest star on a fabulous podcast called Loose Canon, which is about like underappreciated movies that aren't in the film canon but should be, where we, we got mad deep into the gender roles in She's the Man.
Linda: She's the Man is a classic film that is --
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes.
Linda: -- truly under appreciated.
AM: I would – so agree.
JS: It 100 percent is.
AM: I would love for you to listen to our episode and let us know what we missed. We – I walked in there with like six pages of cited notes.
JS: We watched it.
AM: We were so ready.
JS: I saw Amanda taking notes as we're watching. Like, yes, into it.
Linda: I cannot – I finally found my people.
JS: Yehey.
Linda: Like I don't know one other person who genuinely and and unironically loves that movie.
JS: It's a great movie.
AM: It's a fucking amazing movie.
Linda: It is just – chew like you have a secret is just one the greatest lines of my life.
AM: It's like it's Amanda Bynes in the perfect role, right?
JS: Yes.
AM: Like physical comedy, a little bit soulful, funny. Like she's pure. Like – and just like so into what it is that she's doing. It's like a perfect host.
Linda: Like Channing Tatum's simple dog like humanity --
AM: Yes. Yes.
JS: My baby, Channing Tatum.
Linda: -- so perfect for that role.
AM: Person golden retriever, Channing Tatum.
JS: Oh, my god. It’s so good.
AM: There's so much like good friends supporting. There's enough like, you know – like – I don't know what it's called. Situational --
JS: Yes.
AM: Or not situational comedy. But like going in opposite doors. Like, "Oh, no. We're gonna find each other." Like running in there like boeing, boeing style or something.
JS: Oh, farce I guess.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I guess farcical. But like --
Linda: Also, like one of the greatest like, "Oh, now, you can have a crush on her. Screw you, guys. I hate high school."
AM: Yes.
JS: Oh, that is – oh, it’s a good line.
Linda: Best line ever.
AM: Like it, it both is and respects and calls the fuck out of the like high school like drama DCOM --
Linda: Yes.
AM: -- you know, like romance relationship movie.
JS: Like real good for an early 2000s movie.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: I mean it was #pure and also --
AM: It was.
JS: There was a little bit policing of bodies, but, other than that --
AM: Yeah. Yes.
JS: -- excellent movie.
AM: Yes. There was a little bit like gender policing.
Linda: Yeah.
AM: Other than – like it was the early 2000s. Otherwise, they did pretty well.
Linda: Yeah.
JS: Otherwise, David Cross meant well.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: You forgot he was in there for a second, didn't you?
Linda: Oh, my god.
AM: Baby Channing. We'll link our episode of Loose Canon. But, if nothing else --
Linda: Check out the show notes.
AM: If nothing else, folks, go watch She's the Man at your earliest convenience.
Linda: Please do. And also I will try to find the IMDB link to the 90s version of this movie, which I think is probably one of the better versions of the movie about the Butterfly Lovers.
AM: Yeah.
Linda: So, if anyone is interested, you can try to hunt that film down.
AM: Were the butterflies red and white?
Linda: No, they were both this pale celadon green.
JS: Oooh. Where they like Luna moth?
AM: Oooh. New grass?
Linda: Pardon?
AM: Like --
JS: Amanda said new grass. I said Luna moths if that's a thing.
Linda: I don't know what those are.
JS: Oh, they're like these bright green like butterflies basically that have sort of like a long tail.
Linda: They don't have tails.
JS: Okay.
Linda: It's probably like a very pale green.
JS: I'll show you a picture of the lunar moth right now.
AM: Yeah. Two things. One, I said new grass. Like the kind of metaphor of like starting anew --
Linda: Okay.
AM: -- and like new plants and some things.
JS: That was cute.
AM: Thank you. But, also, Luna is the name of a wonderful Hawaiian novel by Julie Anne Peters about a transgender teenager, and one of the first books I ever read about like gender nonconforming and trans youth.
JS: I think you gave that to me to read. I don't remember anything about it.
AM: She wrote several really good books.
Linda: Was this recently?
AM: Nope. It was in like the early aughts or mid aughts.
Linda: Oh, wow.
AM: Julie Anne. Peters.
JS: No. You read them early.
AM: Yeah. There was like one LGBTQ shelf at our library. And I read the fuck out of that singcle shelf. Well, thank you so much, Linda, for coming and not depressing us exactly. But, you know, getting us interested in this like fundamental --
JS: I was expecting a lot worse.
AM: -- elemental story. Yeah. I was expecting like just like blood slaying all over the place.
Linda: No. It's --
AM: Like, you know, bloodlines curses.
Linda: It's more – it's less about gore when it comes to like what I call a very specific Chinese sadness. It's less about gore. And it's about this like deep knowing that you can never be truly happy.
JS: Amanda’s face right now.
Linda: Amanda says it so. I mean she is like, "Aww." Like, you know, this --
JS: The best way to describe it was just crystalized.
Linda: Yeah. Just crystalized.
JS: Right.
AM: It was a moment of existential sadness.
Linda: It is – it is the – it is the emotional look prevalent oppressing on a brood.
JS: Oh, no.
Linda: That's the way some Chinese affection should feel.
JS: Oh, no.
AM: Well, on that note listeners, stay creepy.
JS: Stay cool.
Linda: Bye.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil