Episode 23: Koschei the Deathless (with Ivan Plis)
/There's nothing quite like a fairy tale. Heroes on quests, helpful magical animals, and… hidden sex dungeons?! We break down the famous Russian folktale of Koschei the Deathless, which defies the conventions of all the fairy tales we've heard and read before this! (Except the Little Mermaid. That's still messed up.) Hear our take on Bird Husbands, Russian Gary Stus, a turducken of death, and a badass warrior princess that deserved more air time, all with the help of special guest Ivan Plis (@ivanplis, ivanplis.com).
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. Plus, check out our Patreon for bonus audio content, director’s commentary, custom recipe cards, and more. We can also be reached at spiritspodcast@gmail.com.
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 23: Koschei the Deathless secret --
JS: So creepy.
AM: -- with Ivan Plis. We're so --
JS: I'm so excited.
AM: We're so pleased. Oh, my god.
JS: It's such a good like winter Russian fairy tale --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- that I feel like I'm kind of upset that Ivan got to tell it before I could.
AM: Like get your flask of vodka, get your cloak on, and like enter the forest with us.
JS: Yes. Oh, god. It's a lot of fun. And you guys are gonna fucking love it.
AM: Oh, but, before we get there, we wanted to thank our new patrons: Ryan Nabla, Heidi B, and Paul Sating. Thanks also, as always, to our supporting producers: LeeAnn Davis, Shannon Alford, and, now, Phil Fresh.
JS: You beautiful land mermaids and mermen.
AM: We love you so much. And we have some super cool redesigned recipe cards comin’ at you this week. So, you can join us on patreon.com/spiritspodcast to see them, to hear our audio extras, our blooper reel. It’s awesome.
JS: And a shout out to all of you who shared your hometown urban legends with us. It was so exciting to read all of them.
AM: Like the pumpkins, we put out the call and you answered.
JS: You guys are so good to us.
AM: So good.
JS: Love it. Especially thank you to Kayley, the Cryptozoologist.
AM: Great Twitter name.
JS: Shiloh, Jessica, Daniel Silver, and James Santana for telling us in very detailed tweets all about your stuff. I love it.
AM: We love it. We actually have a Google doc going. It's very fun. But guys, if you don't follow us on Twitter and Facebook, like what are you doing? We are @SpiritsPodcasts. We retweet fan art. We retweet fan tales. We love to like booze it up on Friday afternoons and over the weekend.
JS: We're just a lot of fun.
AM: We are. We're way more fun on Twitter than we are in real life, Julia.
JS: That’s absolutely true.
AM: We're also though on YouTube for your podcast watching convenience.
JS: Or listening.
AM: Yes. Well, you watch on YouTube anyway.
JS: Yeah. All right. Whatever.
AM: Get to look at our logo for 25 minutes, which I would because it's beautiful.
JS: It is really pretty.
AM: And we need a Goodreads group to keep all of our favorite mythology-related books all in one place, have discussions, get to know you guys better. So, links to both of those are in the description.
JS: Hey, you guys asked for it. We were like, "Hell, yeah. Why don't we have this already?"
AM: Yeah, such a good idea. And we're going to add more books with each episode. So, follow us.
JS: Right now, our top Goodreads pick is American Gods by Neil Gaiman, one of my favorite novels of all time.
AM: And the more you listen to Spirits, the more you'll recognize the kind of characters and mythologies that Gaiman is playing off of or spinning off of in the novel.
JS: We've talked about a couple. But, when the TV show comes out, I'm going to do a full thing.
AM: Yeah. Mini series, something along those lines.
JS: It's going to be good.
AM: So, anyway, point being, Follow us on Twitter, y'all.
JS: So, Amanda, what are we drinking today?
AM: We are drinking one of my favorite beers, which is Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Stout.
JS: Yes.
AM: We didn't go with vodka, but we went with the second most Russian thing we could find.
JS: I feel like it would have been too cliche for us to go to – with vodka.
AM: I know. I know. We, we try to be a little less cliche than our first idea.
JS: But the Rasputin, super on brand. I'm into it.
AM: I know. I know. We're really into it. But that's about it. So, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 23: Koschei the Deathless with Ivan Plis.
Intro Music
AM: So, we are so pleased today to welcome my longtime friend, one of my first very close internet friends, Ivan Plis with whom I had a published internet project before --
IP: Yeah, for like a year.
AM: Spirits. The Spirits Podcast thing. Yeah. Daily blog and YouTube show called Wonkistan.
IP: That's what turned me into a journalist for better for worse.
AM: All righty. All righty.
IP: Yeah.
AM: And, similarly to Spirits, interested in nuance and culture and, you know, colliding interests that wouldn't otherwise be written about in the same way.
JS: Just arguably less drunkenness.
AM: No drunkenness in that.
JS: Okay.
AM: So, this is an improvement.
JS: Yeah.
IP: Yeah.
AM: We were also under 21.
IP: Yeah. It's true. But thank you so much for having me you guys. This is great. So, I heard your Russian Lady Birds – Bird Ladies --
AM: Yes.
JS: Cool.
IP: -- episode. And I thought there's just so much more in the sort of the Russian mythological canon to tap into.
AM: Just that whole – that whole continent over so much time.
JS: We just – we just scratched the surface.
IP: Such a landmass you guys. Such a landmass.
AM: And Ivan, listeners, was born in Russia.
IP: Yes.
AM: He speaks Russian, into geopolitics, into history --
IP: Yeah.
AM: -- into religion.
IP: There you go. Yeah. Just squeezed in like Indiana Jones pulling his hat in. I was born and then we moved to the States when I was four months old.
AM: They're mining out under that stone wall.
IP: Yeah.
AM: That was actually the Iron Curtain.
JS: That was a good one.
AM: Whew.
IP: Well done. Yeah. No. Technically, I was born in the --
AM: I'm still drinking. So, I have the highest [Inaudible 4:15].
IP: Yeah. We're going. We're going.
AM: And not vodka because – Come on.
IP: No.
AM: Not cliche.
IP: No, no. Sorry guys. I should have brought some.
AM: Just very fruity beer.
IP: Yeah. So, I thought – like – so, one of the interesting things to me about the Russian folk tales I sort of grew up hearing and as a kid is how there's often sort of a set number of characters who show up over and over again in different configurations.
AM: Golem style.
IP: Yeah. I mean it's almost kind of like, like a sketch comedy show or something, right? Where it's like, oh, we're doing this kind of a story, I guess it's time for this guy to show up again, you know. Like they – there's – yeah.
JS: It's tropetastic.
IP: It's very tropetastic. But I mean it's like it's not even subtle about it. It's not just like the brave hero, the princess. It's like that --
AM: It's like that one brave hero. That one princes.
IP: Yes. And like they all have the same names.
JS: Oh, I like that.
IP: Yeah.
AM: And, actually, I like that too. And I mean you probably, honestly, know more about this than I do. But I have sort of ideas of like, you know, nation building and, you know, we are one people with one history.
IP: Right.
AM: And, so, the characters that we use to tell ourselves stories --
IP: Yeah.
AM: -- that we want to, you know, inculcate our kid into.
IP: Yes. We'll get to that.
AM: Okay.
IP: So, the thing I wanted to start out with – so, we mentioned – y'all mentioned in the – in the bird ladies episode how sort of Russian mythology came from a slightly different place than what we're familiar with in Western Europe, because Christianity showed up a little bit later. And then, once it did, there was a great flourishing and messy process of syncretism.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yes.
JS: Oh, it's always a little bit messy.
IP: It's always a little messy, right?
AM: Russia is syncretic as fuck.
IP: Incredibly syncretic. Yeah. And, so, a lot of the Slavic pagan deities who are like extremely hardcore --
AM: Yes.
IP: -- and like sort of much more like the Norse.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yes.
JS: Very much like feed me the blood of your enemies sort of thing.
IP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, so, a lot of them became various monsters. But some other ones sort of got conflated with like I think, the prophet Elijah. His feast on the Orthodox Church calendar is in late summer. And, so, he became associated – and, because he's associated with the sky, because if you read your old testament, he was taken up into heaven in a chariot. His associated with --
JS: [Inaudible 6:37].
IP: Yeah. Associated with the, the old pagan thunder god.
AM: Dope.
IP: Yeah. And, so, there's all sorts of these kinds of connections. So, the story I want to tell you today is the story of Prince Ivan and Koschei the Deathless.
AM: Cute.
JS: I feel like you might have picked this story for a reason.
IP: Okay. Well, here's the thing – is there are multiple Ivans in the Russian folklore canon. Like even besides – even leaving aside the sort of stock character thing, there's Prince Ivan, who is generic, wealthy, noble, heroic kind of bland hero guy with a sword.
JS: He's a Gary Stu.
AM: Not that. Not that.
IP: Yeah, total – absolutely.
JS: He's a Gary Stu.
AM: Gary Stu of Russia.
IP: And there's – but there's – like that's not the only Ivan that you have even when you're talking about generic Ivans.
AM: And is that like unusual even compared to the – like how common Ivan is as a name?
IP: Well, I mean that's the thing. It's – I think it's kind of a cipher. It's, it's sort of an every man kind of name for a reason.
JS: Like Jack in England.
IP: Exactly. You've got Jack and the Beanstalk.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
IP: And you've got all these other Jack's popping up.
JS: Yes.
IP: Exactly. But there's also Ivanushka the Fool, who is a very different Ivan and does not have anything in common with Prince Ivan. And, somehow, these two Ivans like managed to – you know, this even though they're mononymous. It's like, if there were two Chers running around or something.
JS: That'd be weird.
AM: I know. It's – like my – in my family, I have three cousins named Danny. And they're all like the very different spectrums of all the cousins --
IP: There you go.
AM: -- in terms of like, you know, careers --
IP: Right.
AM: -- and family status and love.
IP: Right. So, like Prince Yvonne is the one who rescues the princess and slays the dragon and do – does all the things. And then Ivanushka the Fool is the one who makes a terrible mistake and then somehow rectifies it through accidental good fortune.
AM: Oh, great.
JS: That's always good.
AM: Love it.
JS: That's the kind of guy you want to like have a beer with.
IP: Exactly.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Oh, you tripped and fell. Oh, you found a shit ton of money when you fell. Cool.
IP: Sort of an Andy Dwyer from Parks and Rec kind of situation.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or a Scapin from Commedia dell'arte, Scapino.
IP: Oh, yeah.
AM: A show that I did in high school.
IP: There you go. So, our story begins with Ivan, the prince, and his three sisters who have --
AM: Love it already.
IP: Yeah.
AM: Love it already.
IP: There are various names in the various renditions of this story. And I think I'm going to maybe do a couple. I'm going to show you where these – the versions of this branch off. I may be blending versions of this story to give you --
AM: Ivan, no one knows the source text except for you.
IP: All right. Great.
JS: So, we're just gonna be like, "Okay."
IP: I'm going to give you the best possible version --
JS: Cool.
IP: -- of the different variations.
JS: I like that.
IP: Great. Cram as many stock characters in here that --
AM: The director's cut.
IP: Yes. Prince Ivan and Koschei the Deathless, the director's cut.
AM: You are an inheritor of all the Ivans in all the folklore.
IP: There can only be one. So, our scene opens on Prince Ivan and his three sisters, who are generally in these stories known as Marya, Olga, and Anna, because, of course --
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
IP: -- all solid Russian names. And their parents are dying. They're --
JS: [Inaudible 9:48].
IP: Yeah. Like this is the opening scene in like all of the versions of this story.
JS: This is like Pixars related.
AM: Highly relatable.
IP: Right. And, so, because it's medieval Russia, the sisters need husbands. They're getting along okay. They're – and the storm comes one day in the old Russian side. And a raven comes flying into the house.
AM: Tropestatic Raven time.
JS: Yes.
IP: Well, it gets better.
JS: We love the bird.
IP: A raven flies into the house through the window.
AM: Turns into a man.
IP: Turns into a man.
JS: Yesss!
AM: Yessss! Yes.
IP: Yes.
JS: Best kind of husband's a bird husband.
IP: Shapeshifting bird husband --
AM: Oh, so good. So good already.
IP: -- flies in and says, "Hey, I came in here as a weird bird. But, now, I'm a man coming as a suitor. Give me one of your sisters." And she's like --
JS: Bird --
IP: -- and, Marya, I believe number one. Yeah.
JS: Bird man has no job. Bird man has no prospects. Why would we marry the bird man?
IP: I think he's a prince. It's – yeah.
JS: There's bird princes now?
IP: There's bird princes. Yeah. This is – this is --
AM: [Inaudible 10:52] birds of [Inaudible 10:53].
IP: I think – no. Actually, I think he's a shapeshifting bird wizard guy. And, so, Princess Marya --
AM: I think he is really inventive in bed.
IP: Right.
AM: Just – I'm just gonna say it. We're all thinking it. I'm just gonna say it.
IP: So, Princess Maria says "Okay. I'm into it."
AM: Okay.
IP: Goes off, marries the guy whose name is literally like Raven, the raven guy. So, sister number one goes off with her Raven husband.
AM: Marya.
IP: A couple days go by another storm comes.
AM: Wait. Can I actually make a guess?
JS: We've had the bird husband.
AM: Is it an owl husband?
IP: It's not an owl husband.
JS: No. No. Eagle husband.
IP: It's an Eagle husband.
JS: Yess!
IP: Eagle husband, same thing. Flies in the window, lands on the ground --
AM: Oh, my god. How many times --.
IP: -- turns into a hot wizard shapeshifter.
JS: Eagle husband.
AM: I think eagle.
IP: Eagle husband and same thing happens.
AM: Great.
IP: Olga's like, "Fine. Let's go for it." Goes off to the kingdom of the eagle wizard guy.
JS: What's the order age wise that they're going off? So, oldest to the youngest.
IP: I think – I assume we're going eldest and youngest --
JS: Okay.
AM: Yeah.
IP: -- because this is a folktale.
JS: And you can marry the youngest before the oldest is married.
AM: Right. Exactly.
JS: I got it.
IP: Also symmetry.
JS: Yeah.
IP: A few more days go by and we're down to Ivan and Anna.
JS: Okay.
IP: Hanging out in the fields one day. Storm comes.
JS: I'm calling Amanda's owl one. This one's the owl.
IP: Goes inside.
AM: Is it an owl?
IP: It's a falcon.
JS: Oh, man.
AM: Should have guessed it.
JS: I feel like eagle is --
AM: Normally falcons are smaller than eagles.
JS: -- higher than --
AM: Oh, yeah. No falcons are a little bigger birds.
JS: Yeah.
IP: Right.
JS: But they're like --
AM: But it is the youngest.
JS: But also falcons are like the peak of royalty because like they --
AM: That's true. That's true.
JS: -- you would have a falcon if you would go --
AM: They are domestic hunting birds.
IP: And, also, I feel like, if you're in medieval Russia, these are all like maximum intimidation birds.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I don't know. I think the raven kind of gets out intimidated by the eagle and the falcon. That's just me.
IP: Sure. Same thing happens. Anna's into it. Goes off. Lives with her shapeshifting wizard.
JS: Listen, this family has a very specific set of kings.
AM: Anna, Anna is down to bird.
IP: So, now, Ivan --
JS: I feel you're way to smug with that joke.
IP: So, now, Ivan is sitting on his family property with no sisters around, but three very influential bird brothers-in-law.
AM: Great.
JS: Are they all just like living in the house with him?
IP: No. I think they're each at their separate castles.
JS: Okay. Cool.
IP: Because they're --
AM: King Lear style.
IP: Yeah. They're like shapeshifting wizards. So, they can do whatever they want.
AM: Yeah.
IP: And then, one day, he goes out writing as a young prince with no parents or, apparently, any responsibilities as you do. And he encounters a battlefield full of dead guys.
JS: Not great.
AM: Okay.
JS: Not the best situation.
IP: And he --
AM: I feel like he would know about this if he was the prince of the land.
IP: I think he's maybe gone into the territory – the bordering land. The thing about Russian fairy tales is there's like always an infinite supply of realms.
JS: I mean it's huge.
IP: Right.
AM: Yeah.
IP: But, you know, if you need to get somewhere, there's always the most faraway kingdom.
AM: Yes.
IP: Yeah.
JS: There's always somewhere.
IP: There's always a farther away kingdom and a lot of this winds up being like --
AM: Much like ambition. Regardless of whatever kingdom you arrive at, there's always a further one farther away.
IP: Right. So, he's off sojourning in another realm. Runs into a battlefield full of dead guys.
AM: Okay.
IP: He goes, “What is going on?”
AM: Yeah.
IP: If there is one living among, you tell me what has happened?
AM: Oh, wow. That's a power move.
JS: In that very proclamation way.
IP: Yeah.
AM: Oh, yeah. Pretty like – the like keep standing on the edge of a cliff. Like sublimity.
JS: Not like there's a lot of dead bodies. Let me go throw up over there.
IP: No.
AM: No. No.
JS: He's like, "If one of you is alive, you must tell me what happened."
AM: From atop his horse.
IP: So, the one survivor goes --
JS: Of course.
AM: Oh, nice.
IP: Hey, guy. It was Marya Morevna, this dope ass warrior princess.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Different Marya from --
IP: Different Marya.
JS: Okay.
IP: They run out of names.
JS: Listen.
AM: Okay. I was gonna say --
IP: Unrelated. Yeah.
AM: -- there's, there's scarcity. Come on.
IP: Right. So, he keeps riding. Comes to the tent of this dope ass warrior princess, Marya Morevna.
JS: Into it.
IP: And he goes, "Okay, this is impressive and a little intimidating. Let's go for it." Marries Marya Morevna.
JS: How? How?
AM: Nice. Nice.
IP: This is all like before the opening credits by the way.
AM: Oh, my god.
IP: Yeah.
JS: This is – this is the Pixar intro.
IP: This is the setting. Exactly. This is the montage.
AM: Much like – I also love how like battlefield – like side of the battlefield like war tent sex is becoming a thing on Spirits. Much like Alexander and Hephaestion.
IP: Okay.
JS: I like that genre. That's a good genre overall.
AM: Oh, me too. That's always a [Inaudible 15:25].
IP: So, he marries Marya Morevna, who – some people say that there's some kind of connection to again pre-Christian Slavic goddesses of death --
JS: Sure.
IP: -- going on there.
AM: Also, I love how he wasn't intimidated and tried to conquer her. But he was like fair enough --
IP: Yeah.
AM: -- and he can make an alliance with this, you know, clearly superior power.
IP: Right.
JS: Let me – let me marry this warrior princess.
AM: Exactly.
JS: I'm into it.
AM: Good job.
IP: So, moves into her castle. I'm not sure what's going on back home.
AM: He moves in with her. Yeah. I love it.
IP: He moves in with her.
AM: I love it.
IP: And Marya is like, "Okay. Look, Ivan, this is a great castle. Now, the only thing you have to do not to screw everything up is don't open that door."
AM: Oh, no. Is that – is that Pandora's Box?
JS: Dumb boys always open the door.
IP: Yeah.
AM: That Ivan's door.
IP: And, depending on the translation into English, you'll see this as like – sometimes it's a dungeon. Sometimes, literally, it's translated as a closet.
JS: Don't open my closet.
IP: Don't open my --
AM: Oh, it's essentially just a door or something.
JS: Yeah.
IP: Don't open this door. As soon ,of course, as Marya Morevna goes off pillaging --
JS: He opens the fucking door.
IP: He opened the door. And --
AM: My god.
IP: -- who's in the door?
JS: Was – were three shapeshifting bird brothers-in-law not enough for you?
AM: Right.
JS: You had to open the door.
AM: God.
IP: Right. So, he's, he's doing fine. Opens the door. And what's inside the door? Koschei the Deathless. Who is Koschei the Deathless?
AM: I don't know.
IP: Koschei the Deathless is a weird skeletal evil wizard guy.
AM: Okay.
JS: Into it.
IP: If you kind of think – oh, if you watch --
AM: Like the Grim Reaper songs cloak.
IP: Yeah. And like a beard. He's like a --
JS: Okay.
AM: And why not?
IP: Right. Like a lot of the art you see in like the 19th century folkloric revival like in these illustrated fairy tale books, he's kind of just like this naked, skeletal, skinny old guy with a giant beard.
AM: Okay.
IP: Like chasing after someone.
JS: I'm thinking evil Dumbledore.
IP: Evil Dumbledore. There you go.
AM: I'm thinking like --
JS: There you go. There's our Harry Potter reference.
AM: I'm thinking shrunken head unshrunken on top of the Grim Reaper without the cloak.
IP: Yeah. And he's hanging up chained to the wall by 12 chains.
AM: Oh.
JS: Okay.
AM: 12.
IP: Yes.
AM: Interesting number.
JS: Interesting number.
IP: And Ivan goes, "Holy shit. There's an evil wizard hanging in the closet."
JS: Evil naked wizard in this closet.
AM: Well, you married a battle princess.
IP: Right.
AM: So, what do you expect?
IP: Unfortunately, because he's pure of heart, he takes compassion on this man --
JS: Goddamn it.
IP: -- who says, "Fetch me some water for I am very thirsty." Brings a bucket of water. Brings two. Brings three buckets of water. Magic number. Regains his strength. Breaks the chains. Flies out of the house in a whirlwind and steals the wife.
JS: Yes.
AM: Goddamn it.
IP: So, Koschei the Deathless --
AM: You bring Koschei the Deathless a bucket of water. He takes your wife next.
IP: Right.
JS: In a whirlwind.
IP: So, here are the things you have to know about --
AM: This is like fucked up Wizard of Oz. As if that needed to be further fucked up.
IP: So, here are the things you need to know about Koschei the Deathless. He's deathless.
AM: Okay. Okay.
JS: Got that from the name.
AM: Ever living. Ever living.
IP: Yeah. So, some of the places I've read compare him to like leeches in like Western European stuff.
JS: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
IP: Yeah. Where like he has I think like horcruxes. It's like his mortality --
AM: Right.
IP: -- is hidden away somewhere inaccessible.
AM: So, horrible.
JS: Right.
AM: Okay.
JS: Right.
IP: And -- in this --
AM: Did you know that was a real thing?
JS: Yeah.
IP: Yeah. It's everything in Harry Potter and something else.
JS: Also, a leech is something that's really popular in Dungeons and Dragons as a bad guy.
IP: That's right.
JS: Usually, they're evil.
IP: That's right.
AM: Cool.
IP: Ivan does the natural thing. Well, better go find my wife.
AM: Okay.
JS: I thought you were gonna say the natural thing is like, "Well, all right. She's gone. That's it."
AM: Go back to my castle, which is just I guess --
IP: He has to get his wife back.
JS: End of fairytale.
AM: Flaming heart.
IP: He's pure of heart. The warrior princess is in trouble.
AM: Whatever. Pure heart is so 2004.
IP: The warrior --
JS: The warrior princess can probably handle herself.
IP: Well, you'd think. But he goes wandering the forest. Finds – the stories vary. Often, it's like an old man who gives him a ball of string that leads him to the castle of Koschei the Deathless, blah, blah, blah.
AM: Okay.
IP: Finds the wife.
AM: It doesn't matter. Old man's a boy. Let's go
IP: Yeah. Riding along in his horse. Finds the wife. And he tries to steal away the wife.
AM: I bet that doesn't go well.
IP: Doesn't go well, because Koschei the Deathless, besides being deathless and this evil naked, horcrux wizard --
AM: I bet his [Inaudible 19:38].
IP: No. Has an impossibly fast horse.
AM: Whoa. Nice.
JS: Of course. Yes.
AM: Nice.
JS: We love a good Russian horse.
AM: Love a good impossibly fast horse. Got bored of the magical talking horses.
JS: I mean --
IP: Yes. There's more magical talking horses all over Russian mythology. Tries this again the following night undercover the cover of night. It doesn't work. Koschei says, "Listen, guy, who's inexplicably hanging around my castles who I haven't destroyed, try this one more time I will cut you into pieces and throw you in the ocean."
JS: Because the third time is the charm.
AM: You gotta have a third attempt. You gotta have a third attempt.
IP: Tries. Doesn't work. Koschei catches Ivan, cuts him into pieces, puts them in a barrel.
AM: No.
IP: Seals it and throws it in the ocean.
JS: Solid. It's what I would do.
AM: Whoa. Because why would you burn it and give it a definitive ending?
IP: Right.
AM: No. Cut and throw it in that ocean.
IP: And, so, who comes along? Knows their brother-in-law's in trouble.
AM: Eagle husband. Falcon husband --
IP: And Raven husband.
JS: Raven husband.
AM: Nice.
IP: It's like the mythical Pokemon. It's like the three birds.
JS: That's true. The legendary Pokemon.
IP: Exactly. So, the legendary Pokemon husbands, the brother – the birds-in-law.
JS: I just want to use that all the time now.
IP: Yeah. Converge --
AM: My avian-in-laws.
IP: Yeah. My avian-in-law. So, our bird friends --
JS: AV-in-laws. How did I miss that?
IP: Oooh!
JS: Oh, no. God.
AM: It's so good.
JS: Losing my touch.
IP: Converge on this barrel.
JS: Okay. Fine.
AM: Did they lift it up on a – on a glide?
IP: And bring it – yeah. And bring it – bring it to dry land. Oh, yeah. So, like one of them fetches it out of the ocean, one of them – and then the other to go to the ends of the Earth because, of course, this is Russia. There is unlimited space.
AM: Yeah.
IP: One of them brings the water of death. One of them brings the water of life. They pour the water.
JS: Hold on. Where are we getting --
AM: Okay. Okay.
JS: Where are we getting this from?
AM: Bring it back.
JS: Bring it back.
AM: Where are we getting this from?
IP: Again, this is a stock thing. This is a stock element.
AM: Like the – like the fountain of youth or whatever.
IP: It's like the fountain of youth.
AM: Okay.
JS: Okay.
IP: Except their, their water is both of death and life because balance.
JS: Sure.
AM: Sure.
IP: Yeah. And, so, the – one of the birds – maybe he's in human form. I don't know. Pours the water of death over the Ivan chunks.
JS: I mean he's already dead.
IP: Reassembles him into like --
JS: Corpse.
IP: Corpse. Into a singular corpse.
AM: Which he revives with the Waters of Life.
IP: There you go. And, so, we now have --
AM: That feels pretty easy.
IP: Yeah. So, we now got our Ivan.
JS: Simple way. Do it simple.
AM: I guess if you have AV-in-laws --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- anything is possible.
IP: There you go. So, there we are. We've got a reconstituted and living Ivan.
AM: Great.
JS: Great for Ivan.
IP: And the birds go, "Okay. What's going on here?" Well, I got outflanked by Koschei's impossibly fast horse three times in a row.
AM: Yeah.
IP: I know what you gotta do, said the birds. You gotta go to the witch who lives in the forest.
JS: Great. I feel like that's what you go to first.
IP: Right. So, after – I mean, this is good advice from your bird brothers-in-law.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Is the witch Baba Yaga?
IP: Baba Yaga.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Whoa.
IP: This is – again, this is the story.
AM: Myth section.
JS: It's like – yeah.
IP: This is the story that has all --
JS: This is all the stories.
IP: -- the Russian characters show up at one point.
JS: This is pretty legit.
AM: So, can you summarize Baba Yaga?
IP: Yes. So, Ivan is walking through the forest. Sees a little house, a hut that is on the legs of a giant chicken.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Okay.
JS: We're loving the birds
IP: Lots of --
JS: Russia loves the birds.
IP: Russia's got some birds going on.
AM: Loves a good bird. Loves a good bird.
IP: Yeah. So, Baba Yaga is a witch of powers equivalent to that of Koschei. Lives in a hut in the forest on chicken legs. So, in times of distress, it can run away.
JS: So cute.
AM: It's like the gorilla pod of animal feet. Like it can cling to whatever surface you put it onto.
IP: There you go.
JS: Also, chicken legs are creepy. They're like weird like --
AM: Clean your sock – socks.
JS: -- raptor legs.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: They're gross.
AM: Dinosaur hangovers you know.
JS: Yeah. Dinosaur hangovers.
IP: Yeah. There's also like a whole side quest potentially here where like he goes back and like try to cross a river of fire to get to Baba Yaga. We don't have to talk about that.
JS: It's the B plot.
AM: Yeah.
IP: Yeah.
AM: Depending on how tired the child is and how much he needs to be like --
IP: Exactly.
AM: Yeah.
IP: Yeah. That's the thing is these are kind of accordion shaped.
JS: Yeah.
IP: These stories can be as long or as short as you need them to be.
AM: I like that. I like that.
IP: Yeah. So, Baba Yaga's house on chicken legs is surrounded by a fence of bones with skull.
AM: Just going right for that aesthetic.
JS: Sweet.
AM: Awesome.
IP: Exactly. She's very mental.
JS: I like that aesthetic.
AM: Yeah.
IP: And --
JS: We can be friends.
AM: I bet she has like really thick mascara. You know, like the clumpy mascara?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
IP: Right.
JS: Like old lady mascara.
AM: Yeah.
IP: You're talking about bird ladies. We're back to back ladies.
AM: And like blue eyeliner, but only on the bottom line. Anyone else – anyone else – anyone else's parents raised in the '80s?
IP: And this is the best part. It's to – so, in Western Europe, we're used to our witches riding around ot a broomsticks.
AM: We are. Yes.
IP: Not Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga flies around – so you know, what’s a mortar and pestle?
AM: Yes.
IP: Got a giant one. Sits in I guess the mortar.
AM: Yes. And is the pestle for smashing?
IP: It's for smashing.
JS: Yes.
IP: And I think she's also got a broom that is sort of like her air decor.
JS: To clean it out.
IP: Yeah.
AM: Yes.
IP: And to like sort of sweep the air behind her I guess. So, that's --
JS: Like a rudder?
IP: Yeah. So, like that's what she flies around in.
AM: That's incredibly useful.
IP: Yeah. And sort of like this giant wooden smashy thing.
JS: Also, totally works with the idea that like witches, you know, were making potions and like grinding stuff up.
AM: Alchemists.
JS: Yeah. Alchemist.
IP: Absolutely. Yeah. And, so, in some stories, she's much more of a like the main villain. Here, she is sort of like the secretly helpful, morally neutral figure.
AM: Right. So, like playing China and Russia off themselves to like help out North Korea or something.
IP: There you go. There you go. So, Ivan knows what's up. Goes up to the bone fence.
AM: Okay.
IP: Says, "Chicken house, come turn around and lower yourself to me." Kind of a Rapunzel situation.
AM: Or an accessible bus.
IP: Or, an accessible bus. There you go. And the house comes down. Ivan comes in. We have a little meet cute with Baba Yaga. And Baba Yaga says --
AM: And she's like sitting in a cloud of smoke in her mortar.
IP: Yeah. Or whatever. Like sitting by the fire or the the stove.
JS: Licking some bones or something like that.
IP: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Like a rocking chair made out of like petrified heads.
IP: There you go. There you go.
JS: I'm into it.
IP: And, so – and, so, Baba Yaga says, "Oh, you got a regular Koschei wife stealing problem."
JS: Like this is a common thing. This happens all the time basically with Koschei.
IP: Yeah. I mean these stories are wheels within wheels.
JS: He also is deathless. So, it probably does happen more than once.
AM: Yeah.
IP: Baba Yaga, being a superior witch knows the secret.
AM: Hmmm.
JS: Hmm.
IP: Here is where the horcruxes --
AM: Great.
IP: Koschei's death is in the tip of a needle inside of an egg inside of a duck --
AM: Okay.
IP: -- inside of a hare inside of a giant wooden chest that is buried underneath a tree in an island in the middle of the ocean.
AM: That's like three levels of Slavic turducken.
IP: Yeah. So, this is death turducken basically.
AM: Wow. That's way more complicated than a like – a chest in the middle of a lagoon in Harry Potter.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like that's really the best you could do for your necklace, Voldemort. Like, come on.
IP: And, so, Baba Yaga says, "Look, I will let you go and point you in the direction of the thing and give you a horse that can get you there or whatever if you watch my horses three days in a row and keep them from straying."
JS: All right. What's wrong with the horses?
AM: Sounds like everything can go wrong here.
IP: Yeah. On his way to Baba Yaga's, he has some fortunate encounters with some animals. And, so --
AM: Of course. I love a – I love a convenient magical animal.
IP: Yeah. So, he's walking for days and days and days. He’s very hungry. Sees a wolf. Takes out his bow and arrow to shoot it. But the mom goes, "No, do not shoot my son.
AM: The wolf mom?
IP: Yeah. Don't shoot my son.
AM: [Inaudible 27:33] Talking wolf mom?
JS; Yeah.
IP: Talking wolf mom --
AM: Okay.
IP: -- says, "Don't shoot my son. In return, we will perform all the favors you could possibly want."
AM: Wow. So, normally the power dynamic is the other way around.
IP: Yeah.
JS: Normally, it's the, "Don't shoot my son. I will eat you now."
IP: No.
AM: Right. Or, like I might not eat you for a minute while I prolong your suffering. And then I will eat you.
IP: Right. This is sort of like extremely gnarled – I don't know – Snow White kind of – or a Cinderella kind of situation.
JS: Right.
IP: Right. Where it's like the --
AM: Right. Right.
IP: The animals are my friends.
JS: Not, not the mice. Not the mice. The giant wolf.
IP: The giant wolf. And, so, great --
AM: Yeah. I mean there's some like Cinderella bird shit going on.
IP: Right.
AM: Like, come on. We got it.
IP: So, I've got good karma with the wolves.
AM: Okay.
IP: This happens again with I think some birds and I think a fish.
AM: What other animals are left?
JS: Cool.
IP: Yeah.
AM: So, [Inaudible 28:14], squirrels --
IP: I was – I was gonna go like a badger.
AM: Yeah.
IP: By the time he gets to Baba Yaga's, he's got some good karma with the animals.
JS: Cool.
IP: So --
AM: Convenient. Good to have.
IP: Day one, take out the horses into the fields. As soon as – as soon as they get there, they all scatter. He's panicking.
AM: Why did he take them to the fields?
IP: Because that's his --
JS: They're horses. They got to run around.
IP: That's his job. They got to – they got to graze.
JS: Amanda, you know about horses.
AM: Of course, horses graze. Horses got to graze.
IP: He panics. But then wolf mom shows up and says, "Don't worry. I got this taken care of."
AM: Oh, nice.
IP: By sundown, all the horses have returned to their enclosure by, by Baba Yaga's.
AM: All right.
JS: Did the wolf mom give them a stern talking to?
IP: Apparently, all the wolves corralled like all – like a whole family of wolves.
JS: I like that. All the wolves. Yes.
AM: All the wolves.
JS: The pack of wolves.
IP: Yeah. Corralled the horses back into the pen.
JS: Just – I'm just picturing the wolf mom giving them a stern talking to.
IP: Baba Yaga is like, "Okay. Nice. Nicely done. Take them out into the woods this time." He takes them into the woods.
AM: See how that works for you.
IP: Yeah. He takes them into the woods. Again, they scatter immediately. Panics. Birds show up.
JS: We got this.
AM: Nice.
IP: All the birds are gonna take care of this.
AM: Nice.
IP: Yeah. Take them down to the beach. Fish --
AM: Because Russia is the land of endless environment. So, there are endless --
IP: Yeah.
AM: -- levels here [Inaudible 29:32].
JS: Could we go to the desert and the mountain?
IP: Right. So, on day three, in some versions, there's a – there's bees instead. Anyway --
AM: You know, I like me some bees.
IP: Yeah. And, on day – by day three, we have done three days of normal horse grazing. And he has earned himself away out of Baba Yaga's grip. And, depending on the --
AM: Which he walked himself into.
IP: Yeah.
JS: Yeah. You're like I need this --
IP: But he got the intel, right?
AM: Okay.
JS: Cool.
IP: And, depending on the version of the story --
JS: Yeah.
AM: Turns out he had a secret weapon.
IP: There you go. And, yeah, depending on the version of the story, a magical talking horse.
AM: Cool.
JS: Gotcha.
IP: So, in some versions of the story, we get a bit of a cop out because he goes back to Koschei. He's got the fancy horse that can beat Koschei's horse.
AM: Nice.
IP: Runs away with the – runs away with the wife and then kicks Koschei in the head so that he's unconscious enough that we light them on fire and scatter the ashes to the winds. And that is, apparently --
AM: How you vanquish the deathless.
IP: Yeah. I don't buy that. So, in the other version of the story --
AM: It sounds like it leaves the door open for a sequel --
IP: Exactly.
AM: -- or the option for a second movie.
IP: The very last shot of the movie is like the reconstituted skeletal hand.
AM: Yeah. Right. Or, after the credits, Nick Fury and his eyepatch are like, "Oh, yeah. It's gonna be – we, you know may bet like actually assembling the team, Mark Ruffalo."
IP: But, in the version I prefer, of course, he finds his way to the island because he's got the magical horse that can fly or do whatever.
AM: The island with the trunk with the turducken in it.
IP: The Island with the tree with the – with the chest with the turducken of death.
AM: Okay. Aren't all turducken, turduckens of death y'all?
IP: Right.
JS: It depends on how much turducken you can eat.
IP: And, in this version of the story, I think he hasn't called in the animal favors. And this is where the animal favors come in.
AM: Nice. Nice.
IP: So, he chops down the tree. And, under the tree, we have buried this wooden chest. And he opens up the chest and out jumps the hare. But then --
JS: Oh, shit. It's alive.
IP: Yeah. All of these things are alive.
AM: That's the Hannibal style turducken.
IP: Right.
JS: Because they're holding this deathless thing.
IP: They're magical turducken holding the death of the most powerful wizard that is still, still in your life.
AM: But [Inaudible 31:33] a dead one.
IP: Yeah.
AM: Move on.
IP: So, it jumps out.
AM: Okay.
IP: It's alive. It – the hare runs away as fast as he can. There's no way Ivan can catch it.
AM: Too fast.
JS: But he's got a magic horse.
IP: And – but yeah. But, in this version --
JS: All right.
IP: -- the wolf jumps out. Catches the hare for you. Opens up the hare. Out jumps the duck. The duck goes swimming away. I think the fish gets it for him.
JS: Probably.
IP: And then outcomes the egg. And he smashed the egg. In some versions, he just smashed the egg, and he's dead. But, in the version I like. you open up the egg. You've got the needle. And you break the needle in half.
AM: A feat of strength.
IP: Yeah. And then the powers of Koschei are dissolved. And Ivan gets his wife back. And they all live and farm and be happy until the end of their days. That's just a taste of your Russian hero quests.
AM: Oh man, what a taste it was.
IP: What have we learned today? I don't know.
AM: Okay. Let me think of this for a second.
JS: Aways keep your sex dungeon locked so your husband doesn't find out about it.
IP: And just don't tell your husband about the sex dungeon.
AM: Don't like – don't like – don't point it out on day one.
IP: Right.
AM: Also --
IP: So glad we got married. Don't go in there. Off to pillage.
AM: If you're looking for a romantic getaway, consider a war tent.
IP: Most animals talk and will do you favors if you threaten them and then don't actually follow through.
AM: It's good to cultivate alliances from magical forest animals.
IP: Yes.
JS: Russians will, 98% of the time, marry birds.
IP: Right. And the birds are not – they're good. Like they're good upstand – like I would marry into that family of birds.
JS: Good upstanding birds.
AM: Aren't they great brothers-in-law?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like they go out to find their brother-in-law in the middle of the ocean.
IP: Eagle Eagleson, and Falcon Falconson, and Raven Ravenson.
JS: Oh, the Ravensons.
IP: Yeah.
JS: The good family.
IP: Good upstanding family.
AM: The AV-in-laws.
IP: There you go.
AM: I'll marry into that family right away. Listeners, if you want to hear more about Ivan, and language, and culture, and politics, and religion, and Great British Bake Off --
IP: Yes.
AM: -- you can find him on Twitter @IvanPlis and at IvanPlis.com.
IP: That's right. It's very straightforward. I - V - A - N - P - L - I - S. Thank you so much guys. It was a real pleasure.
JS: Absolutely. Thank you for coming on.
IP: Yeah.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil