Episode 28: Kali
/She’s beauty, she’s grace, she’ll cut you in the face. Then behead you and wear it as a necklace. That’s right, we’re talking about Hindu goddess of badassery, Kali! We take tips on how to participate in divine dance battles, make clothing out of limbs, and be both feared and loved by the best damn battle goddess we know. Also featuring Amanda trying to list Transformers (just you wait), organic food vs. Chicken McNuggets, and an obligatory Harry Potter reference.
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Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 28: Kali.
JS: Oh, god, my beautiful goddess.
AM: This is – this episode is short, but it is fierce.
JS: Yes.
AM: And it's just it's lovely
JS: Like my favorite Shakespeare character.
AM: I know. Could it --
JS: Though she be but little, she is fierce.
AM: I think I got you that as a magnet in high school.
JS: Yes, you did, and a mug.
AM: Oh, nice. Nice. I saw those like --
JS: I think that was my college going away gift --
AM: Awww.
JS: -- that you got me, which was really, really cute.
AM: That's probably true. What are we drinking during this episode?
JS: So, we recorded this episode on a Sunday morning.
AM: We did.
JS: So, Mimosas.
AM: Mimosas. And we had a little I think mango juice in there.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: A little Indian inspired like cocktail.
AM: Exactly. Southeast Asia twist. It was dope. But, before we get into it, I just wanted folks to thank those of you who have taken our survey – our listener survey. We got lots of responses, but we need about 100 more. So, if you haven't filled it out, just go to spiritspodcast.com/survey. It takes five minutes. You can skip the last page if you don't want to fill it out.
JS: You only have to fill out the first two pages. I know a couple of people who are like, “Oh, this takes forever.” It takes five minutes if you don't fill out everything.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Only a few things are mandatory. But, you know, if you want to go, for the whole thing, we super appreciate it. And that'll help us hopefully find some sponsors and keep the show sustainable. Maybe, if we get lucky, to make it weekly if we're able to find the, the support.
JS: Guys, we’re, we're planning things. We want to --
AM: We want so many things.
JS: We want to do these things.
AM: So many things. Biweekly. There aren't enough episodes in the year for all the stuff we want.
JS: I know. I know. We have so many guest episodes coming up, and so little time. We're gonna – we're gonna try and figure a way around that.
AM: I know. I know. Oh, so many people. And I guess we haven't said it in a while. But, if you want to tell us a myth, if you have a guest recommendation, if you have a podcast you love that you think that we should guest star on or vice versa, email us at spiritspodcast@gmail.com.
JS: Or, you know, hit us up on Twitter.
AM: We're always there.
JS: We're always on Twitter.
AM: We're always there.
JS: Yes.
AM: Whenever we get a new tweet, Julian and I like text each other immediately. Like, “Well, did you see this?” I’m like, “Yes. Yes, we saw it.”
JS: So, we have many new patrons to thank since we saw you guys last or since you've listened to us last.
AM: Either way, we just hit 50 Patreons. Yehey. Which I’m so happy about.
JS: Yes. Good job.
AM: Thank you. And we're exactly two thirds of the way to our next goal, which is upgrading our microphones.
JS: So, if you want us to sound even better, we sound pretty good right now if you ask me.
AM: I know. I know.
JS: But whatever.
AM: We kind of sound bad.
JS: You can check us out at patreon.com/spiritspodcast.
AM: And thank you to Megan N., Soha, Ryan, Mary, A.R., Jeffrey, Megan P., Alex, Chan, Jeff, Rita, and Cait for your support. And, as always, to our supporting producer-level patrons LeeAnn Davis, Shannon Alford, Phil Fresh, Catherine Addington. We love you.
JS: We love you all. You beautiful multi armed gods and goddesses.
AM: You're – you'll get the joke. It's Kali. And, speaking of love, we also had a ton of fun on Twitter this week sharing our favorite women-run podcasts for Galentines day.
JS: Oh, so much fun, guys.
AM: Oh, it was. It was awesome. It was kind of annoying scheduling all those tweets, but worth it.
JS: You did a good job with that.
AM: Thank you, Jules. Listener, you can search #podgalentine on Twitter to see all of our recommendations or go to spiritspodcast.com/podgalentine to see an archive of all of our pics.
JS: And, Amanda, pstt, happy belated Galentine’s day.
AM: Ah, thanks, babes. To you too! And to our listeners. You're all our Valentine's this year.
JS: So, have so much fun listening, guys. And let us know on Twitter and Facebook what you think. We're @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: And, without further ado, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 28: Kali.
Intro Music
JS: So, I've been thinking a lot about the kind of stories. I want to focus on this being our second season – second year. Whatever.
AM: Hell yeah. Year two.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Make over. Someone's got a new haircut. I got a new tattoo.
JS: Oh, god, I'm loving it. So, I kind of want to talk more about sort of deities, spirits, legends that I find inspiring. The kind of spirits that we can talk about that we can learn something from, and apply it to our own lives.
AM: I'm into it. You know, I dig that.
JS: Basically, this year of Spirits is going to be a little bit more of boozy introspection sort of a lens of looking at our own lives through amazing stories.
AM: A lot of what we end up cutting is me talking about death after introduce some myths to us.
JS: That is true.
AM: Listeners, you may think that you hear all of it. You don't.
JS: Well, this year hopefully – no. I was gonna say hopefully a little less death. It's not gonna be a little less death.
AM: Listen, man, if we could just – I don’t know – make death interesting and funny, you know, raise your glass. Raise our glass and talk it over. Like I think – I think our listeners are down for that.
JS: So,with that in mind, I want to talk about someone that we learned a little bit about during our Time episode at the beginning of this year.
AM: Yes.
JS: In Hinduism. I hope you know where I'm going with this. There is --
AM: The many armed mother of my heart?
JS: Yes.
AM: Kali.
JS: Indeed. In Hinduism, there is this constant war between gods and a group of demons.
AM: Okay.
JS: Basically, demons in ancient Hinduism are the half siblings of the gods. Kind of like the Titans and the gods in Greek Mythology.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And followed Lucifer kind of like it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, demons are these powerful evil beings, who represent the like ignoble passions of the human mind.
AM: I love that.
JS: So keeping that in mind --
AM: Are there not both sides in us at all times?
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah. There are.
JS: In fact. Indeed. So, in one of these battles, it is sort of the birthplace of one of the most important goddesses in Hinduism, Kali.
AM: Kali.
JS: My girl. I love that girl.
AM: I need a Kali enamel pen.
JS: That would be real cute.
AM: Okay. What if we got a Kali enamel pen holding a microphone and a pair of headphones in her arms?
JS: I want it. I’m so into it.
AM: Listeners, listeners, get on it.
JS: Get on it. Draw it for us. We'll make it into a pen.
AM: Our artist listeners draw it. We’ll make it.
JS: So, basically, the story of Kali actually starts with another goddess, a warrior goddess named Durga.
AM: Okay.
JS: Durga is this amazing warrior in her own right. She has 10 arms. They're each carrying a weapon. She's usually depicted riding a tiger or a lion into battle against demons.
AM: Whoa.
JS: How cool is that?
AM: So cool.
JS: I love that. That's such a good image and terrifying at the same time.
AM: Yeah. And like, you know, much like an action figure where you can change out the arms or something, you know, you have – you have your whole arsenal available to you at all times.
JS: I love it. So, in this particular fight, Durga is up against the Mahishasura, which is also known as the buffalo demon.
AM: Cool.
JS: I don't really know too much about the buffalo demon. I just assumed that its attributes are both humanoid and buffalo-esque.
AM: I'm super into the buffalo in Native American mythologies. So, any buffalo demon – bison.
JS: Different kind of buffalo. That's like bison.
AM: Right.
JS: This is no water Buffalo
AM: Yes.
JS: Cool.
AM: Horns, et cetera.
JS: So, during this battle, Durga becomes so enraged that the embodiment of her anger burst forth from her forehead, and that embodiment is Kali.
AM: Yes.
JS: It’s so cool. It's very also like Athena bursting out of Zeus’ his forehead fully clothed, fully ready for battle.
AM: Yeah. And like I mean you know that I love a good vengeance spirit.
JS: Yes.
AM: But like any – especially like a, a female spirit or goddess as just the instantiation, the like embodiment of a super powerful emotion that was so powerful it bursts out of a god. Like --
JS: It's so – it's such a cool metaphor.
AM: Yes.
JS: It’s so cool.
AM: Like coming right out the womb like ready for – ready to fight, you know.
JS: I love it so much. I love basically every story that involves Kali in this episode. So, you're gonna super enjoy it.
AM: Great. Yes.
JS: When Kali is born out of Durga’s forehead, one of her most distinguishing features is her black skin. None of the other goddesses or gods have this like really dark black skin. It's usually shown blue in most art depictions just because you can't show facial features too well with just --
AM: Right.
JS: Super straight --
AM: Super, super dark. Yeah
JS: Yeah. Not pigmentated. Like super pigmentated. Not gonna work. So, she bursts forth. She's immediately full of rage. Just goes wild. She slaughters the demon and his whole army. She also devours --
AM: No big deal. No big deal.
JS: She devours them after she kills them and strings their --
AM: Raise that one up y'all.
JS: -- strings their head to a chain that she then strings around her neck as a necklace.
AM: Yes.
JS: Which I’m in love with. I want to rock that necklace so much.
AM: Wearing the heads of your enemies.
JS: The problem is Kali cannot come out of her rage.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: After all the demons are killed, Kali's rage then turns to any wrongdoers, which frightens the shit out of the humans who are nearby.
AM: Yes.
JS: Because, all of a sudden, she is, you know, beating up the town drunk and the dude --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- who gambled too much and stuff like that.
AM: Nope. Gotta have a little bit of mediation or forgiveness in there, too.
JS: Yeah. So, she's righting the humans. She’s also scaring the gods a bit because she's a bit crazy. And she's really scary and I want to say, “Durga, what did you do?”
AM: And she’s like, “I don't know.” As we've learned, the gods fuck up, too.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Like no one wants a like moral authority that you can't reason with.
JS: Yeah. So, the solution ends up being Shiva. Shiva is basically the creator and destroyer god in --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- Hinduism. So, he's able to stop Kali's wrath by lying down in her path.
AM: Wow.
JS: When Kali realizes who she's stepping on, she finally calms down supposedly out of embarrassment.
AM: An unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
JS: Yes. And this origin story ties Kali to her worship and association with battlefields and cremation.
AM: Makes total sense.
JS: Yeah. I like it. But that's not the only birth story that has Kali in it. She's in a bunch of different ones.
AM: Just variations on Athena’s?
JS: Just – well, it's interesting because there are variations on different aspects of her worship.
AM: Oh, for sure.
JS: Which I think is really interesting.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because, you know, you have a goddess, who is a destroyer, but also is involved in time and has a bunch of different battlefield, and human sexuality, and motherhood. So, we kind of go into that.
AM: Yeah. And I think about cremation like there's – you know, there's a kind of – I don't know – like a piece and a quietude in there, too.
JS: Yeah. And I like that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Also --
JS: Like the calm after the storm, which is what Kali is all about.
AM: Exactly. I also – I really appreciate that she is – that she's meant to have super dark skin. You know, the kind of like politics and discrimination with, you know, skin color and the caste system in India.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like there's all kinds of, you know, baggage in politics there that I'm not qualified to parse. But, you know, I dig that she is not – you know, not all evil.
JS: Yes.
AM: And she’s not just like, “Oh, because there's been a super dark, like she is evil. Bla, bla, bla.”
JS: Interestingly --
AM: You know, she's more than this.
JS: -- we'll talk about why she has dark skin in a later story.
AM: Let's get to it.
JS: We’ll get to it. Another story of Kali's birth associates her with the goddess Parvati, who, we also know as Parvati Patil because goddamn --
AM: Hell yeah.
JS: -- good, good reference in Harry Potter. Love it.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, Parvati is a mother goddess who is associated with fertility, love, devotion, and divine strength and power.
AM: That's awesome. Also, I just want to note that we have just now been recording for 10 minutes. So, we’ve managed to get the Harry Potter reference in in the first 10 minutes --
JS: They're we go. Got it.
AM: -- which is good. It’s, it’s in our rider. It’s a contractual obligation.
JS: Basically, a contractual obligation at this point. So --
AM: So, motherhood goodness.
JS: Love, fertility, devotion.
AM: All – all of it.
JS: Which is good because she is Shiva’s consort.
AM: Make sense.
JS: So, she's the like head bitch in charge next to Shiva.
AM: Yeah. And like, obviously, creation destruction.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know.
JS: Shiva discovers a demon named Daruka, who can only be killed by a woman. So, he ask Parvati because she's, you know --
AM: Yup.
JS: -- his love. He asked her --
AM: Hey, girl, would you mind running to the grocery for some milk? Also, please kill this guy.
JS: Pretty much, Parvati responds by literally jumping down Shiva’s throat.
AM: Oooh.
JS: Yes.
AM: Does she like take over from the inside?
JS: No, there's a reason. Shiva, in an earlier story, had swallowed this type of poison that had been polluting the ocean. The demons had put this in the water --
AM: Oh, wow.
JS: -- and it was going to pollute the ocean and kill all the humans.
AM: Also, like way ahead of your time, y'all.
JS: Yeah. Good. Good job. Shiva, when he swallowed that poison, the poison was lodged in his throat. But, because he's a god, obviously, he didn't die.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, Parvati knew that there was some poison still in his throat. So, she goes down his throat, becomes combined with the essence of the poison --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- and her skin becomes dark, and she becomes Kali.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I love that.
JS: Yeah. It's really cool.
AM: That's amazing.
JS: She then leaves forth in this new form and quickly kills Daruka.
AM: I love that so much. And I really want to have a like modern retelling, where the god like soaks up an oil spill, and then the person – and then like the god --
JS: Oh, I love that.
AM: -- you know, like jumps into their throat or their body or whatever and becomes like – I don't know – like can control, you know, elementals, or some kind of like, like concentrated carbon. Like has firepower or something good like that --
JS: Damn.
AM: -- idea.
JS: That is it.
AM: You can have that one for free world.
JS: All right.
AM: And, by free, I mean we can discuss royalties.
JS: I dig it. She kills Daruka, but Shiva praises her. And, when he's praising her, he calls her The Dark One, which is literally what gives Kali her name.
AM: Wow.
JS: Parvati is kind of offended by this, because she's been known in stories as Gauri, which is the Fair One. So, Parvati sheds her black skin. And that black skin becomes Kali in her own right.
AM: Oh, I see. So, she’s --
JS: Which is really cool.
AM: She's the like snake skin.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Living.
JS: Yes.
AM: Who is actually badass and righteous.
JS: Yes. And this also gives Kali another name, which is Kaushika, which means the Sheath.
AM: Oooh.
JS: Yeah. That's cool, right?
AM: That is so cool.
JS: I like that one a lot.
AM: And it's great because it's like she isn't defined as being a vessel.
JS: Right.
AM: That's just the thing that existed that her force animated.
JS: Yes.
AM: You know, like, like the different things. She's not just like a receptacle or defined by like someone else's leavings. That was the occasion for her to come into being.
JS: Right. And that's a very much of Hinduism idea. Because of Hinduism, we have reincarnation and the spirit becomes – sent into different vessels as --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- your karma reflects.
AM: For sure. Yeah. I mean you kind of animate what's there. Everything is part of one big universe, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like, you know, you – it's very much about reuse.
JS: Yes. So, I think that story – you – I wouldn't have put that together, but you pointed that out.
AM: Hell yeah.
JS: And that’s really, really good.
AM: That's why we could do them.
JS: Yes, it is. One final origin story for Kali.
AM: Yes.
JS: One of the most dangerous demons was named Raktabija. Raktabija.
AM: Sounds right.
JS: Yeah. I think – I actually think I pronounced that right. Michael Schubert from the Potterless Podcast keeps asking Eric to put together a --
AM: A sizzle reel of all your mispronunciations.
JS: A sizzle reel of all of my mispronunciations. And I’m gonna kill him.
AM: This podcast is free. We do it for fun. You know, we'll, we'll do the best we can.
JS: So, Raktabija literally means blood seed.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, whenever his blood was spilled, another demon identical to him would emerge with it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah. Which is awesome power, but really difficult to beat in battle especially --
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: -- in age, where, you know --
AM: Right. Because anytime you start harming him --
JS: Blood is always shed.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
JS: There's a lot of like knives and scythes and shit. So --
AM: It’s hard to do a bloodless KO on the battlefield.
JS: Yeah, pretty much. So, there was no real way of defeating him, because he kept emerging. So, the gods decided to work together to combine all of their divine energy and produce a super being that could kill Raktabija for good
AM: I'm just picturing, as a kid, I had like three-storey high – like three – I don't know – like whatever. Three-foot high like Transformer garage, but that garage was a Transformer. And like it had like in its belly --
JS: Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.
AM: -- four or five --
JS: Really.
AM: --different things you could put the thing in. Yeah
JS: This the thing you owned?
AM: Connor owned.
JS: Okay.
AM: My brother.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. And, so, there is like four or five different little things that you put the car version of Transformer into. And it was like those, you know, double decker --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- car carrying trucks that you see on the highway. But then the belly opened and all of the things came out. And they all transformed, and it was incredible.
JS: And that was the only thing you know about Transformers.
AM: I think one of them is called – hold on. Not Metatron.
JS: You're real close.
AM: Not Firebird.
JS: No. You weren good on Metatron. Just --
AM: No. I know, I know. Oh, no. Phone a friend.
JS: Megatron.
AM: Megatron.
JS: Megatron, Optimus Prime, Bumblebee.
AM: Optimus Prime. That one I think I knew.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What is the Mega Man? Mega Man is different.
JS: Mega Man is different.
AM: And then the Pokemon that are the magnets.
JS: Magnemite.
AM: Magnetron
JS: Magnemite and Magnetron.
AM: Magnetron.
JS: All right.
AM: Those, those all sound very similarly.
JS: You, you did good there.
AM: This has been mid-90s your brother’s toys corner with Amanda. Moving on.
JS: Okay. Okay. The gods combined all their divine energy to produce a super being that will destroy the demon for good.
AM: Yes.
JS: The result of their energy combining is of course --
AM: Oh, what if Kali --
JS: -- though --
AM: Okay. A, great.
JS: Yes.
AM: Sorry to ruin your moment there. B, what if you entrapped this demon in like a bubble where every – and then – and like – and like cut his throat and quickly like put him in a bubble so that, as the blood spilled out and the new things were formed, eventually, he was crushed under the weight of his own mass.
JS: That's a cool idea. Kali's got a better one though.
AM: Oh, okay.
JS: Okay. So, Kali, she has 10 arms. She's given all the divine weapons of the gods. She meets the demons in battle and manages to swallow them whole, without spilling a single drop of blood in the process.
AM: Yes.
JS: Then she kills Raktabija, himself, by lobbing off his head and then drinking all his blood so nothing --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- could fall onto the ground. Like straight up vampire style.
AM: Oh, I love it.
JS: It's really, really, really good.
AM: And especially, you know, when there, there is so much mixed up in, in womanhood and in femininity and like myths about women about, you know, speaking up too much about being smaller, but being meatier. You know, kind of modern age, we're all meant to be restricting our diets and blah, blah, blah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, just having a woman goddess who is like gluttonous and that's part of her power, I just love that image.
JS: Yeah. So, like she cannot be satiated. And she goes into these rages that --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- can only be stopped by the highest god.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it's beautiful. It's such an amazing image.
AM: And like that is her like power and her legacy. Like, like that's, that's what she is here to do.
JS: Yeah. So, let's talk a little bit about how Kali is typically worshipped.
AM: Sure.
JS: So, she's usually worshipped as – there's sort of a duality to her character.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She's worshipped as this fearful fighting figure. Portrayed with the necklace of heads. She has a skirt made out of arm. She has this rolling, mocking tongue that she uses during battle to kind of like mock her enemies and send them into a rage or into fear --
AM: I --
JS: -- which we talked about a little bit when we were talking about Medusa.
AM: Yes.
JS: If you remember
AM: Yes, we did. And I'm picturing like a butterfly tongue almost.
JS: Yes.
AM: Like a straw to drink her enemy’s blood.
JS: I love that actually.
AM: I think that is great.
JS: I want that instead. Yes
AM: I also want an arm skirt. Not gonna lie.
JS: That's really cute. It's a good look.
AM: It is. Arm skirt, head necklace, can't lose.
JS: So, she has this image of the fighting figure, but she also has this benevolent mother goddess figure especially she's associated with motherly love. So, like the way --
AM: Interesting. Which is also, you know, insatiable --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- and unstoppable.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like moms lifting cars off their kid.
JS: Yeah,
AM: Like yes.
JS: Dude, I'm so into that. So, she's like very protective of the people who worship her.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She's also associated with sexuality. So, in a lot of stories, she's described as extremely beautiful and irresistible to humans and gods.
AM: Huh.
JS: I didn't do – do any stories about that, because I love the image of her sucking down blood of demons instead.
AM: Oh, yeah. No. That's the image I want to focus on. But another kind of, you know, insatiable hunger type, like I mean these things are all kind of together.
JS: So, I kind of want to tell a story of the benevolent side of Kali.
AM: Please.
JS: Because it's really interesting. So, there's a story about this group of thieves, who wants to make a human sacrifice to Kali?
AM: Okay. And how, how does human sacrifice go down in Hinduism?
JS: I don't – and this – so, this story is told for much earlier – like ancient, ancient Hinduism.
AM: Oh, gotcha..
JS: It's not a practice that's, you know, practiced now --
AM: For sure.
JS: -- or practiced anywhere. You know, it was very, very ancient. This is like pre-Veda stuff --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- which is their sacred text. It's basically like you would that practice in Greek mythology or --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- in pre-Christian mythology.
AM: Reliance stuff. Yeah
JS: Yeah. Not just, you know, you sacrifice this person to the god.
AM: Gotcha.
JS: Pretty, pretty straightforward I imagine.
AM: It was the ancient world. You know, sacrifice sucks.
JS: It – we did things. This group of thieves chose a devout monk of a high – a higher caste than them.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I think he was a Brahmin – as their victim. So, they dragged this monk to the temple. And they're preparing to make the sacrifice in front of the statue of Kali.
AM: It makes some sense if we're going to put ourselves into the human sacrifice like mindset for a second. You know, the, the holiest, the highest, the highest potency human sacrifice, it's like the free range and no antibiotic, non-GMO, you know --.
JS: Sure. Yeah.
AM: -- chicken version.
JS: I'm into that. The super organic farm to table chicken.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But monk.
AM: Yes. Like, at Portlandia, Scott would be like, "What's the chicken's name? What was it like to lose legs? What was its – who were his sisters?"
JS: He really preferred corn. The thieves don't know this, but Kali is outraged by this. They're choosing someone who has a higher caste than them. They're choosing someone who is one of her devout followers.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So unacceptable.
AM: No.
JS: Kali, embodies the statue and the statue comes to life. It's amazing.
AM: I love a good statue animation.
JS: I know. So, she takes swift revenge on the thieves, decapitates all of them, and then starts juggling their heads around. Like plays catch with them a little bit.
AM: Oh, my god. Amazing.
JS: And the monk is --
AM: I'm picturing just like the neighborhood kids around the square just looking at her like, “Yes.”
JS: The monk is, you know, of course, terrified --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- but also extremely grateful.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And manages to escape the temple --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- and lived to tell the tale.
AM: Wow.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I love that. Also, like I've – like, now that I think about it, Kali wouldn't want one really pure chicken breast.
JS: Yeah.
AM: She would want like a 20-pack from McDonalds.
JS: Yes. Like she wants a 20-pack chicken.
AM: 20 nuggets – chicken nuggets.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Because she's insatiable.
JS: Yes. She wants all of it.
AM: Take note, y'all.
JS: Dude, I, I'm super, super into this image that you've put into my head now of gluttony being a good thing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I just – I love that so, so much.
AM: It's a harnessable force.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like it's, it's bad when it takes over. And it's bad when it's not, you know, channeled in the right way. But, yeah, I mean especially – instead of women goddesses, who are pure and ethereal and like float over the ground, I'm so into the idea of, of female goddess who was all about like bodily fluids, bodily needs --
JS: Hell yeah.
AM: -- bodily pleasures. Like they're all, you know, wrapped up together in one.
JS: There's another story – speaking of that a little bit. I don't have it written down. So, I'm gonna try and recall it from memory, and I apologize in advance.
AM: Julia, I cannot fact check you.
JS: Oh, god. It's okay. But someone else is gonna fact check me and be like, “Actually, you know, this didn't happen anyways.”
AM: Guys, we've had mimosas with our bagels. Like give us a break.
JS: So, in earlier versions, Kali is also a goddess – a protector goddess of certain areas.
AM: Sure.
JS: So, there's this forest that Kali is supposed to be protecting. And she's scaring the shit out of the people who live there.
AM: It sounds like a theme.
JS: Because she's being a little crazy, and she's being a little rage-filled and all of that. So, Shiva again has to step in and do something. So, Shiva steps in and he's like, “You need to calm the fuck down, Kali.” And then Kali says basically, “You can't tell me what to do.” He's like, “Okay. Here's the thing. We're gonna have a dance off.”
AM: Whoa.
JS: And, if I win the dance off, you have to calm the fuck down. If you win, you can just keep doing whatever you're doing. Kali's like, “That seems fair.”
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: I think we can do this.
AM: There's – okay. Fair enough. There’s rules.
JS: So, they spend days just dancing like match for match moves.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And people kind of gather around and watch this because, one, Kali's supposed to be gorgeously beautiful.
AM: Right.
JS: And, two, this is two gods dancing.
AM: Dance of the gods.
JS: Who wouldn’t want to see that?
AM: I love it.
JS: The match finally ends because Shiva realizes Kali can basically do everything that I do. That's a problem. I have to come up with something that she can't do.
AM: Yep.
JS: So, basically, what he ends up doing is he does this move that is so like uber masculine that it would be insulting for any woman to do it.
AM: Whoa.
JS: And Kali, genuinely, cannot do the move because it is too like dude, bro, masculine.
AM: That is so great.
JS: And, so, she ends up losing. But it's one of the few instances where she is not – I don't want to say she's overly feminine – but where her femininity befells her. Is that the right word?
AM: I think that sounds about right.
JS: Yeah. That sounds right.
AM: But I, I mean, in essence, she would know, because she doesn't stoop down to a level, you know.
JS: Yeah. Yes. It’s like --
AM: I love that.
JS: That's taking the higher road, Kali, which is good for you.
AM: She is. She is. And I mean I love these like epic god dance offs – dance offs. It also reminds me – what is that show on Netflix about the birth of rap and hip hop in the Bronx?--
JS: The Get Down.
AM: The Get Down. It reminds me, too, of The Get Down, where they're having their kind of first rap battle. And James Smith is there in the corner and the the protagonist is emceeing for the first time. And it really is like I love that show because it really frames these characters and the origin story of this like incredible culture in epic terms. Like in the – in the like dictionary definition of the word epic. And I – ugh. I just love it so much. Like they’re really – they're framed, and they’re lit, and they’re shot with the crowd all around. Like it is as if a divine voice, you know, is coming from within these men and, and really like it's the birth of a new thing.
JS: Yeah. So, I kind of want to end the episode based off of how I started it. So, how --
AM: Coming back to the beginning. I see what you did there,
JS: -- how we can learn stuff from Kali through the lens of the story.
AM: Great.
JS: And I was thinking a lot about how anger can be really, really useful as long as it's channeled at the right people.
AM: Yes.
JS: And I think that's definitely something that I want to focus on more in this upcoming year. About sort of focusing my frustrations and my anger and making it into a useful thing, and not, you know, hurting others in the process.
AM: Yes.
JS: What do you think?
AM: I think that's a – that's a great thing to do. Any force is most useful when you channel it. Like that's, that's true in physics where the – right. Like think about, you know, let's say a big bucket of water and you pour it all over the floor. Okay. Well, it kind of just like slumps all over the floor.
JS: Right.
AM: If you pour it down a pipe, it bursts out the other end.
JS: Yes.
AM: You know, like the, the more concentrated, the narrower, the smaller the like volume of the channel that you pour force through, the more effective and powerful it is.
JS: Yeah. Like putting your finger to a faucet.
AM: Exactly.
JS: I like that.
AM: Yeah. And, and that's, that's often how I think of kind of emotion and also like just energy and like will power in my life.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I would like to imagine that I have unlimited energy and concentration and enthusiasm and ability.
JS: Kali just don't though.
AM: I know. But, but to give 100 percent at work and 100 percent at Spirits and 100 percent to, you know, my social life and 100 percent to my family and 100 percent to health and wellness. But the fact is then all of those streams are, you know --
JS: Weaker.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. And, and weak. For me, it's really about kind of I think prioritization and knowing that, you know, not everything has to be 100 percent and to really focus on you know, what, what do I want to channel my like life being into.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, that's, that's often how I think of, you know, making life decisions.
JS: I like that. Any other lens that you can look at the Kali story through?
AM: Something else that I love about divine stories is that so many of the characters have a like selected antagonists. And, exactly the same with Shiva and Kali, like kind of created to balance one another out.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like knowing who your Shiva is in various parts of your life is really useful.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like I have a co-worker where, when I get mad at stuff, I can talk to her. And like I just know that her perspective is the opposite to mine a lot of the time. And I – and I know that like together I can kind of volley a feeling back and forth until it's okay. And --
JS: Right. She's your devil's advocate.
AM: Exactly.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I have lots of the same like, you know, frustrations and also joy's with you, where like, you know, I can share things.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I know that we volley off. But from too many times that it’s bad, then you’re like, “It’s a bad idea, but I feel you.” You know --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- like that happens all the time. Or my siblings, you know, or in various ways. And just, ,just having a kind of – just kind of recognizing where those relationships exist in your life, being thankful for them, and also knowing like those are productive ways where you can honor your feeling and you can be like – you know, you don't have to just quash it down. I can be like, “Julia, I'm so mad at this like insignificant thing that happened today.”
JS: Yeah.
AM: And you’d be like, “I feel you dog. Also, you know, don't go call that person's boss.”
JS: Yeah.
AM: And I’m like, “I know. Thank you.” You know, like I'm honoring the feeling. I'm allowing it to exist for a minute. And then, you know, I have a mechanism where I can get it down to an acceptable level and channel it in the appropriate way.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Where, again, like neither of us is less for having this feeling and for being specialized in a way that we're specialized, but, you know, none of us exists in a vacuum.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, and, so, kind of – and being able to recognize like what your ecosystem is, where your Shiva's are, where you're the Shiva to somebody else --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- you know, where your Kali or where your Shiva. I don't know. It's just like it's a – I always have a hard time kind of like diagnosing my like internal universe and having all these like metaphors and stories to help me do is how – is how I operate.
JS: I like that. I like that. And I think we can use Shiva’s story to kind of channel our energy a little bit better this upcoming year. What do you think?
AM: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Also, like women, you know, you don't have to take up less space.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Take up more space.
JS: No. Take up all the space you need.
AM: You’re allowed. You’re allowed. Your feelings, your desires, and your wants are divine.
JS: Yeah. I love it. Stay creepy y'all.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil