Episode 29: Our Lady of Guadalupe (with Catherine Addington)
/As guest star supreme, Catherine Addington, tells us, Our Lady of Guadalupe is “a thing that is both.” Mexican and Catholic, native and foreign, we dive deep into a story of devotion, roses, snake skirts, widowers, adult-born gods, human sacrifice, and the power of very pious grandmas. Stick around for some hot takes on mythology-inspired fashion, why you shouldn’t try to avoid your divine mom, and reasons to always believe the guy in your small town that says he spoke to God. Find Catherine on Twitter @caddington11 and on her website, and see the incredible Coatlicue statue here.
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 29: Our Lady of Guadalupe with Catherine Addington.
JS: That’s good pronunciation, Amanda
AM: It's, it's the – it's the US way to pronounce that Mexican word. But, guys, we're going to learn so much history. Oh, my god, I love this episode.
JS: And you're gonna hear someone pronounce things so much better than us.
AM: Yeah. Catherine like actually speaks Spanish.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, that's good. Also, we recorded this almost a year ago. So --
JS: Was that a year ago?
AM: No. It was like – it was like eight months.
JS: It was like last --
AM: Seven to eight months. Last summer.
JS: Last August?
AM: Last summer.
JS: Last August.
AM: So, Catherine, thank you so much for your patience and for being a wonderful Spiriter and Spirit supporter. But we may be a little bit looser and more goosier than you're used to.
JS: Yeah. Certainly, goosier.
AM: So, Jules, what were we drinking?
JS: Catherine brought some booze.
AM: She did.
JS: She brought some nice ass mezcal.
AM: Yeah. And I must --
JS: So, it's really good.
AM: And I think it’s my first time drinking it. It was a taste that I did not anticipate, but I really liked it.
JS: Smoky tequila all the way.
AM: Yeah. It was – it wasn't just like an alcohol burn. It was an alcohol burn with flavor.
JS: Like a good cigar. It's like --
AM: I haven't had that, but I trust.
JS: Okay. Thank you guys so much for taking our survey too. You guys showed up. Filled it out. We hit our goal in like two weeks. Like thank you so much.
AM: More is always better. So, you can check it out at spiritspodcast.com/survey. It'll take like three or four minutes. We super appreciate it. We also really, really appreciate the new patrons that we've gotten over the last two weeks. Thank you to Helen, Rose, Adrian, Jason, Amy, and Daniella.
JS: Also, a lot of you on Twitter have been asking us, "Oh, I've gotten through the Spirits catalog. What else should I listen to?" We're always happy to give you guys some recommendations, but Amanda has added a really cool part of our website called Collaboration. So, basically, any other podcast you can listen to us on. We had some Potterless stuff. We had some Loose Cannons stuff.
AM: Sort of guest episode with Flash Forward --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- by a patron, Rose Eveleth. And, so, we – yeah. We're listing kind of all the other places you can hear our voices in other shows. So, that is there for you to check out. We also just want to make sure we think as always our supporting producer-level patrons LeeAnn Davis, Shannon Alford, Phil Fresh, and Catherine Addington.
JS: Our patron saints of boozy delight.
AM: Nice. Oh, such a good pun there.
JS: That's a good one.
AM: I think that's about it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: All right. Well, folks enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 29: Our Lady of Guadalupe with Catherine Addington.
Intro Music
AM: We are so pleased today to be joined by one of our very first listeners and most loyal supporter, Catherine Addington.
CA: Hello, everyone. Good to be here. Thank you.
AM: What are you going to tell us about? You've so many interests.
CA: I do. I do.
AM: You're enthusiastic about so many things, which I love.
CA: Yes. I – well, my favorite thing though is Latin America --
AM: Yes.
CA: -- and especially conquest narratives.
AM: Yes.
CA: Because you got – you got European especially Catholic kind of legend traditions --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- mixing with native mythology. So, I --
AM: Amazing. Two regular things.
JS: The best of both worlds.
CA: Exactly. And, you know, also, the worst of both worlds sometimes.
JS: Yeah.
CA: But yeah.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: The worst of one world during the best of another world. But, okay, we'll get to it.
CA: But like – but, yes. So, so, my favorite one is what I'm going to tell you today. It's not just important like to Catholics, but to like Mexicans more generally. It's like a huge part of Mexican culture. You know, like the Mexican Revolution was like started and led by priests, who carried a standard with Our Lady of Guadalupe's image on it.
AM: Like a banner.
CA: Banner. Exactly.
AM: Banner. Right. Yeah.
CA: So, because of that, I'm like, "This is clearly where I need to start."
AM: Amazing.
CA: Yeah. So, this story takes place in the 1530s. So, this is in Mexico City, but it had most recently been called Tenochtitlan, which is the Aztec capital.
AM: I was gonna say it sounds Aztec.
CA: Yeah. It was the Aztec Empire's capital, but it had been conquered by the Spanish like 10 years ago at this point.
JS: Okay.
CA: And I mostly emphasize that because like this is not an Aztec story, and not like that was a – it was an empire that had fallen. This is very much like a Mexican story in the sense that it literally belongs to like the Mexica, which is the native group that is from the Valley of Mexico like where that is.
AM: Amazing.
JS: All right.
CA: So, it's mostly important to me because there's this huge stereotype that like Spanish missionaries get credit for any like Catholic story that natives took on --
AM: Right.
CA: -- because there was lots of missionary propaganda, which is like true.
JS: All right.
CA: But most of the stuff like in the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe is stuff that you wouldn't get unless you were indigenous at that point. So, to introduce you to the main character of this story, his name was Juan Diego, Cuauhtlatoatzin, which is his baptismal name and his native name. And he's Chichimeca, which is basically like the equivalent of what barbarian was in like Roman times.
JS: Okay.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: It's kind of a generic word for like nomadic people. So, like he was an outsider even within the native people at the time.
JS: He was a rouge.
CA: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And he was like born in, obviously, a very tumultuous time, right?
AM: Yeah.
CA: Like you’ve got not only like he sees the – you know, like fall of the Empire --
AM: Sure.
CA: -- but also like he was kind of happy about it. Because one of the reasons that the Spanish conquest was like so fierce and swift in like the Aztec-dominated area --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- is that most of the native groups that they ruled over like hated them.
JS: Yeah.
CA: And then they like helped.
AM: Hated the Aztecs.
JS: The Barbarians hated the --
CA: Yeah. Hated the Aztecs.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Got you.
CA: They were not fans. They were like, "Oh, thank god, like somebody's here to like, you know, conquer them and show them their place. Well, that like --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: -- ended up not working out so well, but, you know --
JS: Yes. Fuck these guys.
AM: Well, you do whatever you want to do.
CA: Yeah. So, at the time though, it seemed like a good idea, right?
AM: Yeah. He must have been born just a decade or two after Columbus.
CA: Yeah. He was actually born in 1474. So, he was born --
AM: Oh, even before.
CA: -- like three decades before.
JS: Pre-Columbus.
CA: Pre-Columbus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, by the time --
AM: Wow. Talk about straddling an impressive era.
CA: Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. And, so, like, when – so, when the Spaniards like came to conquer the area, which is like 1520 --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- 1519 I think, he like gets to know the priests really well. And he like gets along with them. He's like, "All right." Well, you know, the Aztec priests were like very demanding, you know, with the human sacrifice and all that.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
CA: So, then he was like not a fan. And, so, he, he was glad. And, so, he and his wife, they were both farmers. They – and they live like outside Mexico City in like a very kind of chill area. And they converted. They were like huge fans.
AM: Yeah.
CA: His uncle also converted.
JS: I mean why wouldn't you be a huge fan?
CA: Right.
JS: After like all the human sacrifices?
AM: Also, I think --
JS: This seems – this seems pretty peaceful I guess.
AM: I think, also, the first time a newcomer to Catholicism was like, "This seems pretty chill."
CA: Right? Exactly. Like they were just like --
JS: Everyone else was like, "Please,dear God, get me out of here."
CA: Like, in comparison, this, this religion actually seems chill. Like amazing. And, so, unfortunately, his wife dies young.
JS: Aww.
CA: She got sick. And, so, he is like a widower for most of his adult life. And he goes to live with his uncle. They're both Catholic, and both farmers. And they're, you know, very devout. So, December 9th, 1531. I love when we actually know the date of this.
JS: That's fantastic.
CA: It's great.
AM: Amazing. Amazing.
JS: Oh, so good.
CA: You, guys, this, this was written down in --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- actually by an indigenous chronicler shortly after the story takes place.
AM: [Inaudible 6:45] writer. Amazing.
CA: [Inaudible 6:47]. Yeah. Yeah. It was like written down in Nahuatl, which is like the native language in the Aztec like dominant area.
AM: Amazing. So, no mediation here.
CA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very much --
AM: It's just like primary source AF.
CA: So good. So good. I mean, obviously, like, you know, it was an oral language, but like it was written down like after, you know --
AM: Yes.
CA: So, yeah, all good. And, so, on December 9th, 1531, Juan Diego gets up early to go to mass because – and it was a Saturday. Amazing.
JS: Good job. A+. None of us can do that.
AM: So good. So good. He did it.
CA: Right. And like Saturday morning masses are dedicated to Mary, the mother of God, which is mostly important because, you know, he made a habit of going to these like Mary masses. So, he was a fan of the mother of God.
JS: Who wouldn't be?
CA: Who wouldn't be? Like she's very approachable.
AM: Takes – makes sense of the world, et cetera.
CA: Yeah, exactly.
JS: Understand us.
AM: You know, we're off to it and I know like five hymns. And we're going to reference all of them.
CA: Sounds good. Sounds good. Like more the merrier. And, so, on his way --
JS: More the merrier.
AM: Everyone drink.
CA: Right, On his way to mass that day, he has to pass by Tepeyac Hill, which is right outside Mexico City. And, so, in order to go to church, which was in the city, he has to pass by it. And this is like the main like important location in the area for reasons that we will discuss here.
AM: It's a pyramid or a city?
CA: It's a hill.
AM: Oh, okay.
CA: So, he lives outside the city in kind of a suburb area, you know, with the nomads and the farmers and such. But you have to pass by the hill in order to go into the city.
AM: I see.
CA: And, so, he passes by this hill. And, all of a sudden, he hears a song. Sounds like birds. He's not quite sure, but it's beautiful. And then, all of a sudden, it stops. And he looks up to the top of the hill, and it's like this bright white cloud.
JS: Yes.
CA: And, all of a sudden, a woman's voice calls his name.
JS: Juan Diego.
CA: Now, keep in mind, he's like a 57-year-old widower. So, he runs to the top of the hill.
JS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
CA: He's like, "A woman is calling me."
JS: Ladies.
CA: [Inaudible 8:34].
JS: Coming.
AM: I don't know who you are, but I'm there for you.
CA: And --
AM: He's excited. He's ready.
CA: And he sees a beautiful young woman surrounded by, you know clouds, and clothed in the sun. Like shining. Just beautiful.
AM: Oooh.
CA: And he's super excited. Like she's shining super bright. You know, it dimmed so that he can, you know, see her and a closer shot.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It calibrates. Okay.
JS: That's very polite --
CA: It calibrates.
JS: -- very polite of Mary.
CA: It calibrates. And, you know, she's wearing like a normal outfit.
JS: Normal for the period or normal for like normal Mary?
CA: Normal, actually, for, for natives, which we will talk about.
JS: Oh, okay. Interesting.
CA: And it's actually relevant. So, she tells him who he – who she is. She's the Virgin Mary, the mother of God.
AM: Yeah.
CA: And she actually used the word like I am your compassionate mother. She emphasizes that many times. And she says to him, "I have a message for you. I want you to build a church in my honor on Tepeyac Hill." Not necessarily you. You know, I want you to go tell the bishops.
AM: You, guys. Yeah.
CA: But it's really important to me that I have a place to hear the sufferings of the people and comfort them.
AM: Right.
CA: That's what she says. Gorgeous.
JS: Wonderful.
AM: Yeah.
CA: It's so beautiful.
AM: So nice.
CA: Yeah. And, so, she says, "Okay. The best thing to do would be go to the – go back into the city as you're planning to. And, after mass, go talk to the bishop. He will get this done."
AM: I love that she's instructing him on like the social engineering. Like the local aspect.
JS: Exactly.
CA: Exactly.
JS: Not just like, "Okay, do this." Like, "Okay. So, you talk to this guy. He's going to get you through planning. Then you got to get the architect."
CA: Right, exactly.
AM: Yeah.
CA: And she probably has plans. Yeah.
JS: Once you have all your permits, go build it.
AM: Yeah. It's like – it's like when you're planning a vacation with friends and you're like, "We should go to New Orleans." And then someone's like, "Okay. No, but which weekend works for you?" It's taking it one step better.
CA: Yes.
JS: She's okay. So, I'm booking the hotel.
AM: Yes.
CA: So, he goes straight to the bishop. The bishop is Juan de Zumarraga. And he is struggling. People have been not enjoying the Spanish rule over the area shall we say.
AM: Yeah. Got that.
CA: He's definitely got – he's got a tough sell.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Let's face it. And during a well-earned difficult PR problem.
AM: Yeah.
CA: And, so, he has a lot going on. He doesn't really have time to entertain the crazy stories of this like man who says he has seen Mary and has a church to build.
AM: Right. Is this a Spanish bishop or a native bishop?
CA: Spanish bishop. He's from Castile. And, so, he's like, "Go home. See you in mass next week. I'm not gonna do this."
AM: Get some rest.
JS: Leave it off, buddy.
AM: You need some sunstroke.
CA: Yeah. And he's like, "Somebody's drunk again. Like what's going on?"
JS: Please don't come to mass drunk.
CA: This is a little inappropriate on a Saturday morning. And, so, as he walks home, he passes by Tepeyac Hill again. He sees the woman appear again. And he tells her, "Look, I did my best, but like I'm just a poor Indian guy. Like this is all I have."
AM: Right. Yeah.
CA: This is all I am. You did not make the right peasant.
AM: And kind of appeals with her.
JS: It's the Spanish bishop.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Right. He's like, "You should really pick someone else. Like I appreciate, you know, that you asked me, but I'm just not royal."
JS: Right.
AM: How much of this am I gonna tell her? Right.
CA: Yeah. And he feels kind of bad about it, but he's also like, "I mean you did pick a peasant here."
AM: Yeah.
CA: And she goes, "Yeah. There are plenty of guys I could have picked. There are lots of nobles around. I picked you for a reason." And she goes, "Go to the bishop tomorrow and tell him exactly who is sending you," which I love. She's like, "Make sure he knows it's like the Virgin Mary, mother of God, who was asking you to do this." Like it's just okay.
JS: Like, just to declare clarify, I'm not just any Mary.
AM: This is not any apparition.
CA: Right.
AM: This is not some like, you know, god never heard of before. This is the Virgin Mary.
JS: It's not like St. George or something.
CA: Yeah. And I – and this is actually something that she does a lot like in her apparition stories.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Like, when she appeared to a young woman who was also kind of a lower class woman, Bernadette Soubirous, in Lourdes, France, she explicitly said like, "Tell him I am the Immaculate Conception," which like, at that time --
AM: Do you know who I am?
CA: Like, which, at the time, was something that was like a very theological statement.
CA: Yeah.
CA: Like it wasn't on the tip of every Catholic's tongue. It still isn't, you know.
AM: Oh, sure.
JS: Oh, yeah.
AM: So, clergyman is like, "Oh, shit."
CA: Yes.
JS: Immaculate conception. Yes. That's a thing.
AM: [Inaudible 12:16] want you to know that.
CA: Right. And, so, I think, you know, Our Lady of Guadalupe is trying to accomplish the same thing here, right?
AM: Interesting. Yeah.
CA: Like make sure he knows it's Mary. This is not just some random goddess. All right. And, so, the next day, you know, Juan Diego goes back to the bishop's house after mass and is like, "Listen, I swear it. Like it's Mary please."
AM: It is Sunday. I am not fucking with you.
CA: Yes.
JS: I am not drunk.
AM: It is the literal Virgin Mary.
CA: Exactly. And the bishop goes, "Okay, listen, give me a sign, and then we'll talk."
AM: Okay.
CA: So, you know, Juan Diego tells Mary this. Listen, you know, he needs a sign. She goes, "Okay. Come back tomorrow for the sign. You will find it, and we will get this done."
AM: All right.
JS: Also, like this priest is totally like disbelieving. What the fuck's up with that?
CA: Right. You would think --
JS: He should be like, "Oh, yeah, miracle. Awesome."
CA: And you would also think he'd be a little bit excited that --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- like, "Hey, someone's enthusiastic about the faith.
AM: Hey, shepherd of your flock --
CA: Right.
AM: -- someone's appeared in a rural, you know, outring of Mexico City. Go run to it.
CA: That's what I'm saying. If someone tells me Mary, the mother of God, is in the house, I'd run.
AM: You're out of here. Yes. You're there.
CA: I'm there. I'm there. I want to see that. So, you know, he's supposed to come back the next day. But his uncle, Juan Bernardino, gets sick.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Oh, Juan.
CA: So, he's taking care of his uncle. He's taking care of his uncle. He's like, "Oh, no, this is – this is not good. You know, I really got to focus. I got to be here for my uncle. You know, he's taken care of me."
JS: Mary will understand that shit.
AM: Right.
CA: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Prioritizing family.
CA: So, he – you know, all day Monday, he's like taking care. And then the next day he's like, "Man, you know, I'm really worried. Like he's gonna die. I need to go get a priest for last rites." So, he has to like walk into the city to get the priests.
AM: Pass hill.
JS: And you gotta go pass the hill.
CA: But you got to go pass the hill.
AM: You gotta.
CA: So, he's feeling awkward. And, so, he – this is my favorite thing. He tries to get around the hill.
JS: Oh, buddy.
CA: He tries to go around the hill. That's like my favorite part of the entire story.
AM: Also, God doesn't see all.
CA: Right. Right.
AM: This is Juan Diego.
JS: This is something that's total – that's totally like a – like I don't want to run into the booty call that I had last weekend. So, let me just avoid --
AM: I was thinking more of like don't want to run into your crush in between like Algebra and Chemistry, but whatever.
CA: The whole thing just couldn't be more awkward. He's like trying so hard. He's like, "I don't want to disappoint her, but I kind of have to watch yesterday."
AM: And, honestly, like he's torn between two duties.
CA: Right.
AM: Like it's not as if he's like absconding off with some village hussy.
CA: Right.
AM: Or, he's like --
CA: Exactly.
AM: -- you know, prioritizing sloth and like playing some board game out in the fields.
JS: I also completely imagined him just like playing with a sloth. And we said, "Exactly. Yeah. He's just hanging out in the forest like playing sloth."
AM: I mean he can't like Netflix and, and lays around like I would in this metaphor, but doing something. Yeah.
CA: No. He's like a hard working dude. You know, he's never disappointed anyone in his life. And, all of a sudden, he's like stood up the mother of God, right? So, naturally, on his detour, she appears to him and is like, "What are you doing?"
JS: Like you're avoiding me? Really?
AM: What do you think was gonna happen, huh?
JS: Really?
CA: Really? Are you trying to get out of it?
JS: You're worse than my son.
AM: I mean actual intention.
CA: And, so, he says, "Well, you know, I had this thing with my uncle." And she's like, "[Inaudible 15:09] tell me that. That's fine. Don't worry. He's not gonna die. I'll make sure of that." And later, by the way, he finds out that, at this moment, his, his uncle was miraculously cured.
AM: #literalMotherofGod.
CA: Exactly. Like the mom is taking care. And, so, she says, "All right. Now that that's taken care of, please go up the hill and look for the sign I told you was going to be there."
AM: Great.
CA: He goes up this hill.
JS: Fine. Thank you.
CA: He runs up the hill again.
AM: Yes.
CA: He's a big – he's a big runner even though he's 57.
JS: He's super strong.
CA: He runs up the hill. And there are tons of blooming flowers there. This is December.
AM: Wow.
CA: So that's weird. So, he takes all the flowers. And there's another weird thing about them, but he doesn't know this. But the flowers – he doesn't recognize them. But they're actually Castilian roses --
AM: Oh, shitttt!
JS: No shittt!
CA: -- from where the bishop is from.
AM: Spain.
JS: From Spain.
CA: Yes.
AM: Amaze.
CA: So, he got --
JS: Good job, Mary. A+ work.
CA: A+ work. Like so smooth, right?
AM: So specific.
CA: Exactly. And not weird enough that anyone in town is gonna be like, "What are you carrying in your tilma there?” which – tilma like the cloak that, you know, he was – he would wear.
JS: Sure.
CA: And it was like made out of natural fibers. So, he's, you know, carrying the flowers down. She says, "Okay. This will do. You know, go to the bishop. See what's up." So, he runs to the bishop. But, at this point, like --
AM: So much running.
CA: -- the bishop’s servants are tired of his shit at this point.
AM: Sure.
CA: They're like, "We're not giving you the time of day. Like you can wait."
AM: Right. The Juan who cried wolf.
CA: Exactly. It's like he is sent to the waiting room to like chill out for a while.
AM: Oh, no. In the anteroom purgatory.
CA: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, at some point, it's been a couple of hours. The servants are like, "All right. He's been weirdly patient for like this guy who we think is kind of crazy, and always --
AM: Right.
CA: -- running around like frantic."
AM: Almost like he's filled with divine certainty.
CA: Yeah. And, you know, he's, he's holding his tilma all weird. You know, I want to see what's in there. So --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: All right. All right. Bishop, like, you know, your, your, boy, Juan Diego is here.
AM: Also, like how much excitement happens in this small Parish? Like why isn't everyone just excited?
CA: I need to make sure this is a cathedral, but like, at this point, we don’t have any Catholics or whatever.
AM: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CA: But, anyway, so --
JS: Also, I didn't know bishops have like assistants?
CA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
AM: Whole staff
CA: Whole staff, baby.
AM: Whole flock.
CA: Oh, yeah.
JS: Like executive assistants just kind of like running around with clipboards?
CA: Oh, definitely.
AM: Yes.
CA: Well – and, to be fair, it is also like, you know, the capital.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Fair enough.
CA: So, this is – this is a big deal. Some, some of the smaller bishops maybe, they got like a priest or two you know – you know, whatever.
AM: Trainee.
CA: Exactly, an intern. But he's got quite the squad. So, they tell him. The bishop's like, "Geez, if you told me Juan Diego was here, I would have let him in. What's your problem?" He actually – because he really does want a sign.
JS: But like the bishop said that.
CA: Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, Come on, bishop, please."
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CA: Anyway. So, they let him in. And Juan Diego scurries in, and he's so excited. He doesn't even say anything. He just opens his cloak and like let's the roses fall to the floor.
AM: Miraculously. Yeah.
JS: The red roses.
CA: And the bishop sees them and like tears come in his eyes. He kneels down to smell the roses.
AM: Because he's in – he's in the new world. How long since he saw and smell these roses?
CA: Exactly. And like the frost would do. And it's December. And the thing is insane. And he just can't believe it.
AM: Amazing.
CA: And then, all of a sudden, he looks up and the cloak is imprinted with an image of what is now our Lady of Guadalupe.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes.
CA: Yes. And, so – and this image is so, so amazing. And this is why like she is so famous now. It's because – so, she's clearly mestiza, which is like mixed race.
AM: Yeah.
CA: So, she's clearly like has both European and native features.
AM: Nice.
CA: She's definitely darker skinned.
JS: Into it.
CA: And she's wearing like a floral pink tunic kind of with a like a mantle that looks like the sky. It's like star studded, a small black sash, and she's surrounded by rays of light that actually kind of looked like a maguey plant. So, like that's where you – it's a – it's like the you got – it's the agave plant .
AM: Wow. Cool.
CA: And you get Pulque from it. And that's like the sacred beverage that they would use like ceremonially.
JS: Nice.
CA: And, so, now, it's funny because they, they – it's Pulque. It's usually what you call it. But it also has the nickname of the milk of the Virgin. And, now, this is like associated with this.
JS: Slightly awkward, but I get it.
CA: Exactly. Like you know – and it's that perfect kind of this is sort of awkward, but also reverent. Like this perfect --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: -- like in between place that this entire story lies.
AM: That awkward Catholic place, where we all live.
JS: Exactly. Exactly. It's like the most Catholic thing ever. Like really it's kind of central to all that.
CA: And she's standing on a crescent moon supported by an angel. She's like holding her hands in prayer looking down like very compassionately.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's a very specific image.
CA: It is a specific image.
AM: A very elaborate vision.
CA: And I will explain to you like why that is. Because a lot of these elements are stuff that like a bishop looks at this and he immediately sees Mary, because there's lots of biblical references.
AM: Right.
CA: So, like, you know, a woman clothed with the sun and the moon and the stars --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: -- like comes from Revelation. You know, with the angel, obviously, that's like very [Inaudible 19:18]. But almost everything else about it is like super, super native.
AM: So cool.
CA: Which like we, we will get to. But, just to like let you know what happens, you know, the bishop says, "Wow. Okay, Mary. I get it. Sorry, I doubted you." And he goes --
AM: We're good to go.
CA: Yeah. They build the church on Tepeyac Hill, you know, just as asked. The tilma with Mary's image on it is displayed for everyone there to see. It's still there, you know, 500 years later --
AM: Wow.
CA: -- which, by the way --
JS: We have to Google the image later because I'm super fascinated by this.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Oh, totally. Oh, totally. And like here's what – I mean, you know, everyone and their mother has done like scientific tests on it. And I'm sure they're like, you know, the stories.
AM: It's changed.
CA: But there are stories but like, ultimately, you know, it's a natural fiber thing that's been there for 500 years. So, the Catholics were all like, "Yeah. We only put bulletproof glass on this like 20 years ago." It's really a miracle. I am among this number. I'm like, "Yo, this is amazing." And, you know, Juan Diego, by the way, tries to go back and like just be this little farmer that he came from.
AM: No. No. Celeb.
CA: Pilgrims bother him all the time.
AM: Celeb.
CA: They're like knocking on his door and getting him to pray for them. It's adorable. But, you know, he, you know, lives and dies a quiet, peaceful, and beautiful life of like prayer.
JS: Good for him.
CA: And he did not even become a saint until 2002, which is totally --
AM: Oh, He's a saint now. Good.
CA: Yeah. So, he's a saint. He was the first Native American saint in Catholic history I'd say.
AM: Yehey.
JS: Did he have to be – he didn't have to be martyred though.
CA: No, dear god
JS: Okay. Good.
CA: Right. You know, so, he did not die for the faith.
JS: Okay.
CA: He lived and died for the faith, but like he wasn't, you know, killed for it, which is beautiful. And, meanwhile, you know, unprecedented numbers of natives are converting.
AM: Yeah.
JS: No shit. .
CA: And were like, "Okay." So, so, what is this about? By the way, so, like Our Lady of Guadalupe and Juan Diego both have feast days now. One of like the day that she first appeared to him and the other, the day that, you know, the bishop finally agreed.
JS: Yes.
CA: And they're like three days apart from each other in December. And, so, every year especially in the United States because --
AM: Nice. Nice.
CA: -- a few feast here --
AM: Pre-Christmas fasting
CA: Exactly. Like you – in the middle of Advent, where you're preparing for Christmas and it's all very somber, you get this like beautiful just like America Catholicism celebration.
JS: Yes.
CA: It's great. Disclaimer, like there are a million interpretations of Aztec like mythology and this image, but this is the one that makes the most sense to me.
AM: Right.
CA: So, the first thing you need to know is that Tepeyac Hill, where all of this – this apparition took place --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- was originally the site of a pre-Columbian temple to the goddess Tonantzin. And --
AM: Yes.
JS: Yeah. Yes.
AM: What is she all about?
CA: Yeah. So, she is kind of complicated in that she's not – like the word Tonantzin like implies a person, but she's more of a personification of like the idea of female divinity.
JS: Sure.
CA: Because --
AM: Awesome.
CA: -- she's – it's like an honorific title meaning our mother. So, in the sense that someone goes to pray to Tonantzin, what they – it's either they're saying – like they're using it as a nickname for one of their favorite goddesses --
AM: Right.
CA: -- that they're gonna go pray to or, in a sense, they're like praying to like all mother goddesses. It's like this primordial kind of --
AM: So into it.
CA: Yeah. Like Mother Earth idea.
JS: Right. Yes.
AM: Mother, helped me. Yeah. Whether specific or general.
CA: Exactly. She's like a personified like umbrella deity. And, so – or more like godness. And, so, because of that, you know, people call it – when, you know, Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe, they – people started calling her Tonantzin Guadalupe, because that's just what you call her.
JS: Mama.
AM: Amazing. Yeah.
CA: Like Tonantzin is the thing you call a female goddess.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Like, naturally, native Christians, this made total sense to them. Over the problem. Europeans are like, "She's not a goddess. She's just a human. Calm down." So, they get in fights about this, which is like another reason why, you know, this is very much like a native story. Because the European priests were actually kind of pissed about this.
JS: They're not into this so much.
CA: They're not into it.
AM: So much better.
CA: But, at some point, like it's so popular that they just kind of can't say like stop worshipping her.
AM: Yes. Right. We're not gonna say no to like our fastest growing and also largest segment of the faith.
CA: No, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, when Mary tells Juan Diego like please build the church at this hill. You know, the natives are hearing that and thinking, "Oh, Tonantzin wants us to rebuild the temple." The Spanish are hearing, "Oh, yeah, we want to conquer that temple area." So, it totally works for everybody. It's like a total win-win and lose-lose.
AM: Amazing. Amazing.
CA: Yeah.
JS: Depends on who asks.
CA: Right. Exactly. And, so, this particular temple onTepeyac was most likely in honor of the goddess Coatlicue. So, you know, Tonantzin Coatlicue, but her name means serpent skirt.
AM: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes. Yes.
CA: And, so, like Mary, she is mostly revered because of the importance of her children. And, like Mary, she had a very untraditional experience of pregnancy. So, instead of the Holy --
AM: Amazing. Spirit.
JS: I need to know everything about this right now.
CA: Instead of the Holy Spirit, Coatlicue was impregnated by a ball of feathers that fell on her while she was sweeping a temple.
JS: Fantastic.
AM: Oh, my god.
CA: So good.
AM: Also, when you think about like dust mites and like infection --
JS: Oh, no. Don’t go there.
AM: -- it makes us a certain amount of sense.
JS: Don’t go there.
AM: Biologically, it's all I'm saying. All I'm saying. Pollination, like there, there are certain natural parallels.
CA: Sure. And I respect that. But there – and there is like a disproportionate amount of focus on sweeping temples like in Aztec mythology, which is great. Because like it just goes to prove like the all thesis --
AM: That she gets dusty.
CA: -- which is like Native Americans have actual hygiene standards and the Spanish totally don't. So, when they hear all these stories, they're like, "What the hell are you talking about" So --
AM: Yeah. What do you mean you don't have a temple sweeper?
CA: Exactly.
AM: Come on, people.
CA: Exactly. Like I can't even imagine how dirty the church is like.
JS: That's like not having someone to tend for the fire like in Greek mythology.
AM: Right.
JS: Like someone's gotta be watching this shit.
CA: Right. Yeah. And, so, like – it's like she's magically impregnated, but she's married. And not only is she married to the god cloud serpent, Mixcōhuātl, but she has 400 kids --
AM: Wow.
JS: Yes.
CA: -- as one does. And --
JS: After -- like from the feather or previously?
CA: Oh, no, no. Previously. Like they – she has an existing marriage and 400 children, when, all of a sudden, she's like, magically, impregnant.
AM: Yeah. Snake. Again --
JS: So, it kind of makes this pregnancy seem a little unimportant.
CA: Well --
JS: Except for the – except for the reasons – I mean except for the way that it happened.
CA: Except for the way that it happened. And, also, her kids are like, "Well, you've been unfaithful to our father."
AM: Right.
CA: So, Coyolxauhqui, who is her most important daughter, rallies her 399 siblings, and they attacked their mother.
JS: Why? Proof.
CA: Because they're, they're pissed at her for like violating --
AM: Also, all, all logic would tell you that like that's a logical conclusion, you know.
CA: Yeah.
JS: The ball of feather – no one goes, "Hmm. Ball of feathers, that makes sense, mom."
AM: Who did you sleep with in the temple, mom? That was it.
CA: Right. And, so, in the attack, the preferred method of execution was decapitation. So, prepare yourself. This is a violent story.
JS: Welcome to the Aztec.
CA: Welcome to – yeah. Welcome to Aztec life.
AM: Also, I mean quite efficient. You can't blame them.
CA: It's efficient. Exactly. And, so, at the exact moment that they decapitate Coatlicue, her son emerges from the womb fully-grown and ready for battle.
JS: Athena style.
CA: Athena style.
AM: Oh, like the little man baby Jesuses that we see in the Renaissance painting.
CA: Exactly like on the painting.
JS: They don't know how to draw real babies. They're just like, "Oh, it's a small man."
AM: Yes. Kind of good.
CA: And, so, this son of hers is Huitzilopochtli. And he is the god of sun and war. He is actually like the sun, but he is the god of war.
AM: Wow. That sounds very important.
JS: This is straight up awesome combo.
CA: He is extremely important. And, so, he gets right in it. He starts by cutting off the rebel daughter leader, Coyolxauhqui.
AM: Oh, my god. Just right there?
CA: Right there.
JS: Like where does he get the thing from?
AM: A sword? Who cares? I don't --
CA: Maybe he rips it off. Let's not talk about it. So --
JS: Oh, yeah, probably. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
CA: So, he, he gets rid of her head and throws it into the sky, where it becomes the moon.
AM: Yes.
JS: A+. Good work.
CA: And then he does the same to many of his brothers and sisters who become the stars.
AM: Amazing.
CA: And, naturally, he is the sun. So, this is like an incredibly bloody scene, obviously. You know, it's death, but it's also – its life.
JS: Also, like cool dualism where it's like he's the sun, and his siblings don't come out because they're scared of him until it's nighttime.
CA: Yes.
AM: Yes.
CA: I didn't even think of that. It's so good. Right.
AM: That is awesome.
CA: And, so, like, you know, all of this death is like resulting in all of this creation. And, so, really like Coatlicue, whose death, you know, precipitates this, is like the personification of basically how all of the Aztec cosmology works.
AM: Yeah.
CA: That it's super, super dualistic and crazy. I first learned about Coatlicue when I was in the National Anthropology Museum in Mexico and I saw her statue. And like, keep in mind throughout the following, that I was 12 years old when I saw this. I'm literally still having nightmares about it
JS: Oh, no.
AM: Awesome. A very impressionable age. I'm sorry/awesome.
JS: Gotta have to add that – a picture of that up too.
CA: Oh, absolutely.
AM: Look at the show notes, people.
CA: This is very important. To go up – bottom up for maximum effect, her feet have claws in order to plow the Earth --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- make, you know, humanity have food as I said.
JS: Oh, like bird claws or like the lizard claws?
CA: More like bird claws.
AM: It depends.
JS: Well, bird claws are more like separated, and then lizard claws are like --
AM: Oh, you're boring me.
JS: -- are like hands with like fingers.
AM: Let's continue to the awesome story.
JS: Sorry. [Inaudible 27:34].
CA: Her feet also have Eagle eyes that look toward infinity. Her legs have feathers.
JS: Bird.
CA: Her skirt is made of poisonous rattlesnakes, which are actually like fertility symbols.
AM: Yes.
JS: I want to wear that.
AM: So cool.
CA: And it's topped with a belt that uses a human skull for a buckle.
JS: Okay.
CA: Just below her breast, she is wearing a sash that indicates pregnancy or motherhood.
JS: Cool.
CA: Her torso is exposed. Like her breasts are really heavy with milk, but they are covered by a necklace made of human hands and hearts.
JS: Yes.
CA: And she's --
AM: What's, what's the preservation technique there?
CA: Good question.
JS: There is none. It just rots away. And then she's like, "I have to kill another person in order to get a new necklace."
AM: Oh, damn it. It's up for renewal again.
JS: Yeah.
CA: So, she's leaning forward and her arms are kind of hunched up as if she's about to pounce. Her wrists --
AM: Oooh.
CA: Yeah. So, her wrists have been cut off. And she's decapitated, but get this. That's not just like dismembered. In Aztec iconography, dismemberment and decapitation is indicated by snakes sprouting out.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: So, she like emit.
CA: So, like emit. Like – so, at this point --
JS: Who let this happen?
CA: -- has two snake sprouting out of her neck like facing each other.
AM: Another.
CA: Yeah. So, obviously --
AM: I never want to see this image.
CA: Well – so, this statue is actually --
JS: If I die, I want a statue like this made of me. Please and thank you.
CA: So, this statue is actually so terrifying that when they built it up --
AM: I'm just [Inaudible 28:50] here.
CA: Yeah. So, when the European like, you know, settlers or whatever like dug it up in 1790, they actually reburied it. They're like, "No one needs to see this shit."
JS: Like, "Hmm. Nope."
AM: Don't need to know. Don't need to know.
CA: They were like, "Bye." I mean – because it was dug up at the same time as a bunch of other stuff, that's the only thing they reburied. They're like no.
JS: No. No. No.
AM: That one can stay.
CA: Nobody needs to see that.
AM: We will take your gold bowls and bring them back to the British Museum, but that one can stay.
CA: Yeah. And, so, naturally, like they re-dug it up again after Mexican Independence when everyone like stopped giving a shit whatever we got.
AM: Right.
JS: Like remember that thing that they buried? We should get that.
CA: Yehey.
AM: It goes like in a double fuck you.
CA: Exactly. Exactly. I'm not just like being sadistic here and like, you know, giving you all the gory details.
AM: Oh, no. That's what we're here for.
CA: It's actually – well, although, you know, naturally, I would do that anyway. But it's actually – this image like, even though it seems totally foreign to what I described earlier about Mary, actually, there's a weird amount of parallels. So, first, like Coatlicue was venerated at Tepeyac at that temple primarily around the winter solstice.
AM: Cool. Which is December. Yeah.
CA: And December is when, you know, the appearance happened. The pregnancy belts, the sash is also in our Lady of Guadalupe's image because she --
AM: Her sash.
CA: Yeah. So, she's wearing like an Aztec sash.
AM: That's so cool.
JS: Like, btdubs, I'm pregnant.
CA: Yeah, which is great because there actually aren't that many images of Mary visibly pregnant in Catholic iconography.
AM: No. Yeah.
CA: Which is weird. It's always considered.
JS: She's always like getting impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
CA: Right.
JS: Or like – or --
AM: Oh, here's a baby.
JS: Or here's my baby
CA: Exactly. Like it's really rare that you actually see her pregnant. It's either – like when they're doing images of the visitation when she goes to visit her cousin.
AM: Yeah.
CA: But, even then, she's not visibly pregnant. Like --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- she’s just kind of sitting.
AM: Or, even like, if you're – if you see her like on the donkey, she's just like, draped in fabric.
CA: Exactly. Exactly. So, like it's, it's kind of stunning and awesome to me. Like the first prominent image of her pregnant is actually --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- isn't needed.
AM: Yeah.
CA: And it's just like – it's so good. And, so, if you remember from the story, like Coatlicue is the mother of the sun, the moon, and the stars. And all of those appear in Our Lady of Guadalupe's image. And she's clothed --
AM: Yes, they do.
CA: -- yeah, the sun, the moon, and the stars. And, also, in a way, like – and this is, you know, a little bit more like abstract. But Mary kind of reinterprets Coatlicue like theologically, because all of the accessories, you know, the skulls and the hands. They all refer to human sacrifice, which, obviously, is like a well known and well – like correctly hated practice, which is all about practicing – you sacrifice the young warriors. It's not just like anybody, you know. And, especially in like all of the images of it, it's always like, you know, old people who are like – but it's not how it was.
AM: But it's actually the thing we've got.
CA: It was like young warriors.
AM: Yeah.
CA: And it was like honor. And like, on the one hand, it's kind of a political decision because, you know, a really good way to keep control of your empire is made sure there are no good potential revolutionaries.
AM: Yeah.
CA: But like, you know, the cosmological reason is that the gods were like sacrificed in creation to make human life possible. You know, Coatlicue was sacrificed so that the sun, the moon, and the stars could exist.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: So, sacrificing human life is like a way of repaying the favor. So, obviously, it's like terrible, but it's also –like it makes its own kind of sense.
AM: Almost resembles the humans and elevates them in a way.
CA: Yeah.
AM: Like, you know, now, you are also part of the godly creation.
CA: Yeah. And it's also like – again, like this is something that's super foreign to the Spanish Christians who like show up here. But, actually, Christianity shares kind of that impulse for like atonement and Thanksgiving. Because – again, we're talking about a religion where like Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who gives himself --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- as a living sacrifice for the salvation of the world.
AM: Right. Because the fundamental act of Christianity is self sacrifice. Yeah.
CA: Is self sacrifice. And it's like a weekly thing that you do at church.
AM: Yes.
CA: Like it's not just like a one time event. So, this is also --
AM: Yeah.
CA: Like, in the sense, that you practice sacrifice all the time to get in with God. It's like that.
AM: Also, so unlike the Greeks, who are like, not only are we going to create you, it's going to take nothing from us. And we're going to continue to use you as our play things, and mess with your lives, and marry you guys, and impregnate you, and then run away.
JS: That'd be the Greeks
CA: Coatlicue, who like thrives off human sacrifice, turning into Mary who gives her son as the one human sacrifice that actually works --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- and is sufficient and good.
AM: Yeah.
CA: It's like inherently understandable and like legible --
AM: Yes.
CA: -- to native Christians in a way that like Spanish Christians are just not going to get. Yeah. And, so, they, they hate it. And that's actually one of the reasons why we know this story. It's because one of the first written references to it is people going to, you know, pray to Our Lady of Guadalupe and calling her Tonantzin. And there's this famous ethnographer and historian Fr. Bernardino de Sahagún, who is a Franciscan priest. And he writes about this. And he says --
AM: No.
CA: -- no.
JS: Look at these idiots. Such a bad idea.
CA: Actually --
AM: Hey, joke's on you. You're preserving the native folklore.
CA: Yeah. And he doesn't even say this is a bad idea. He actually says this is satanic. Like that's one of the only reasons even know this story.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Yeah.
CA: It's because he literally says it's satanic. Nah. Naturally, later – about like five years later, this is the same guy who was going to literally have his signature on the only written record of the story saying. "This is so great. I love how much this is complimenting the natives.”
AM: Oh, my god. Oh, wait. I mean this is bringing untold thousands of people to the church. A+.
JS: I want to hate the priest.
AM: A+. Carry on.
CA: Right. Right. So, he's like totally ridiculous. And, so, he like try – he like even tries – he like learns – he knows the language. He speaks Nahuatl. And, so, Tonantzin means our mother.
AM: Yeah.
CA: But, if you, you know, try to twist that, he says, "No. No. No. Dios and Nantzin. Meaning like mother of God." So, he really tries to get that, but it's just like it's never gonna work. And, so, you know, naturally, like the story says seven or 8 million people converted. Like who the hell actually knows? But, even as a priest wanted to shut it down, it's just not gonna happen. And that's also – like, honestly, that's the way most Catholic stories end. It's like the – there's one thing the Catholic hierarchy like is just not good at shutting down. And it's like --
AM: The people.
CA: -- crowds pious grandmas.
AM: Yes.
CA: You cannot – you cannot shut down crowds of pious grandmas. Like it's just not gonna happen.
JS: The grandma's just – they stick to it, man.
CA: They totally do.
AM: Yeah.
CA: And, so --
JS: And they bring all of their relatives along with them.
CA: No, totally. Totally.
AM: No one can eat without them.
JS: Yeah.
AM: If grandmas go on a strike or march, they are going to be well provisioned and ready to just stand for a long time, and tell you what you want to know.
CA: So, this is like where the other parallel comes in, Amanda. The other parallel is the serpents. And this is also where I'm finally going to tell you why she's called Our Lady of Guadalupe. Because that's weird. Like she doesn't appear at Guadalupe.
AM: Right.
CA: She appears at Tepeyac. What the hell?
JS: Right.
CA: So, there are two major theories behind that name. Both are probably true, honestly. One is the kind of the Spanish-focused theory. So, as you can imagine, Spanish priests were not used to seeing Mary with dark skin. But --
JS: They probably weren't. Yeah.
CA: They were probably surprised. But there was one dark-skinned Mary that they were very familiar with, which was Our Lady of Guadalupe back in Spain. The Guadalupe River is in Extremadura, which is in the middle of Spain where the bishop in this case is from. And that monastery has a statue of Mary who's very dark skinned. There are a few European Mary's who were like famously known as like the Black Madonnas because they're one of the few dark-skinned like depictions of Mary. So, that monastery of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Spain is like – it's literally where Hernan Cortes was from. It's where like a lot of the conquistadors came from there. And that's where like Ferdinand and Isabella signs like Columbus' Commission.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Where it's like pray for the Americas.
AM: It's the sort of like social and political clout, you know, can sort of like --
CA: Exactly.
AM: -- legitimize the Black Madonna.
CA: Not only that, but it was like very explicitly connected with like the American conquest.
AM: Yeah.
CA: It was like this is where we have prayed for and we have prayed to Mary for the Americas here.
AM: Sure.
CA: And, now, the first Mary we see in America is dark skinned. It makes me happy.
AM: All right. It makes sense.
CA: So, like all of that. But the Nahuatl-focused theory, which is like the native-focused theory – and it's like the parallel to Coatlicue where comes in here. So, Guadalupe is basically like a Spanish eyes version of the Nahuatl word, Coatlaxopeuh. And that means she who crushes the serpent.
AM: Fantastic.
JS: So good. So much better.
AM: That's new.
CA: So much better. So much better. Like effectively better.
AM: Also checks out.
CA: Also checks out.
AM: Like anyone would hear the parallels between those two.
CA: Exactly. So, like not only is it crushing like Coatlicue wears the serpents – whatever, but the most important Aztec god like in everyday life is the god of the Aztec priesthood, Quetzalcoatl, who is literally a serpent.
AM: Yeah.
CA: Like it just – it makes so much sense.
JS: He's the flying serpent one? Is that the --
CA: It's feathered serpent.
AM: Yes.
CA: There are – there are quite a few serpents --
JS: Yeah.
CA: -- as you – as you would have guessed.
AM: We'll have to come back for a special on serpents of the Americas.
CA: Absolutely. Absolutely. Serpents of the Americas are like fierce. But it's – you know, it's also a biblical reference because like obviously the devil like --
AM: Yes.
CA: -- symbolized by a serpent in Genesis.
JS: And the dragon.
CA: And not only that, but like literally in Genesis, you know, God says to the devil serpent, like I will put enmity between you and the woman. And, so, literally, it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. And like, yeah, as you said, you know, the thing with revelation. It's just it's so biblical this whole thing.
AM: And like so much more badass and also useful than a Medusa-style snakes as hair. Who wants snakes as hair?
JS: No one.
AM: Nobody. Who wants like a snake utility belt skirt? Everybody.
CA: And, so, like my favorite thing about this particular like etymology too is that it was actually most popularized. Like I wouldn't say invented. Yeah. Because it's been around for a while. Like most popularized by Gloria Anzaldua, who is like a 20th century writer, feminist, Chicana writer who basically like wrote a whole history of this story as like reinterpreting Mexican history from the indigenous perspective because that was a huge thing.
AM: Yes.
CA: And it's like one of the reasons why like the story is so popular.
AM: Intersectional feminism. Indigenous lands.
CA: Yeah. And that's also like why – like one of the reasons why this story is so popular is because like, literally, no matter what angle of Mexican history you look at it from, it's super important.
AM: Yes.
CA: And it's super like --
AM: Right. No matter what your allegiance, women are important, and Mexico is important.
CA: Yeah, exactly. And like, just before we finish, like I want to mention like my fave thing about the story, which is that like – I mean the way Mary and Juan Diego talked to each other like, as I mentioned before, it's really beautiful. He actually starts out – because like he's a 57-year-old and Mary of Nazareth is a teen mom.
AM: Yeah.
CA: So, he actually starts out --
JS: I always forget that she's a teen mom.
CA: Yeah. She's a teen mom.
JS: And I kind of picture like MTV, like --
CA: Right. No, totally.
JS: -- children making bad decisions.
CA: No, totally. And, so, like, he starts out by calling her my youngest child, my daughter. And, immediately, she turns it around saying, "No. No. My youngest child, my son." Like I am the mother, right? It's really beautiful. And it's also --
AM: Also like, "No. No."
JS: Like, "No. No, child."
CA: Adorable. And he – you know, he is also using the name for her which is Aztec, which is Tonantzin --
AM: Yeah.
CA: -- like the goddess name. And she is using his birth name, not his baptismal names. Like she uses his name.
AM: They're on a level.
CA: Exactly. But get this, his first name, Cuauhtlatoatzin, means the Eagle who speaks. And the Eagle is one of the main symbols of Mexican people. It's like literally in the coat of arms of Mexico --
CA: Yeah.
CA: -- which is, you know, like the founding legend of the cities like, you know, waiting for this particular Eagle. Prepare yourselves. The eagle is a representation of Huitzilopochtli, who was like the son of Coatlicue. Like the original --
JS: Yeah.
CA: Like the one who was the sun – the sun and the god of war --
AM: I can't. I can't.
CA: -- who was like the uniquely victorious. Like the one who defended mother.
AM: That symbolic resonance is so --
JS: So, good.
CA: Exactly. It's so like, when Mary calls Cuauhtlatoatzin her son, she's literally like the mother --
AM: The son on so many levels.
JS: Claiming him. Yeah.
CA: -- calling the eagle her son. It's like the exact some story. Like, on a linguistic level, it works like --
JS: So good.
CA: -- so perfectly. It's like --
JS: It's all the pieces coming together. It's so good.
CA: No, exactly. And it's also like peak – like things that are both, which is my favorite --
AM: Yes.
CA: -- like hashtag for my life philosophy.
AM: Yes.
CA: Which is that like everyone who interprets the story comes out with like a political agenda of, "Okay. Like this is gonna be the native like Victoria, Victoria story or this is going to be like the Spanish propaganda story."
AM: Right.
JS: This is the Catholic Oath.
AM: Yeah.
CA: It's totally – it's absolutely both. It's all of the above. It's everything. And it's just like the most perfect, like beautiful summary of everything it's trying to be. Like it's so good.
AM: So good.
CA: It's so good.
AM: So good.
JS: Oh, man.
CA: God bless. God bless.
JS: Cuckoo.
AM: Cuckoo. Hisssss.
JS: No hisses. Just cuckoos.
AM: Oh, yeah. There’s something going on --
CA: That's all I got.
AM: -- on the mic. Oh, my gosh. I love that so much.
JS: It's so good.
AM: I can't even think of what to add because it's so perfect.
JS: Because there's really nothing.
AM: It's such a perfect little jewel box.
JS: And like, you know, like, usually, when we do myths there's like something that like falls apart. Like it gets lost in translation or something.
AM: Right.
JS: That was just fucking perfect.
AM: That was perfect. And I need to go visit Mexico City --
CA: Yes, absolutely.
AM: -- to see this cloak.
CA: Yes.
AM: This image.
CA: Yeah. It's really, really beautiful. And it's, also – you know, you don't even need to go all the way to Mexico City because everybody in America has got a tattoo of it. So, I mean not anywhere.
JS: You can check it out.
AM: I cannot wait in the next week walking around New York City in the summertime to see a tattoo of this in the wild. I'm sure I will.
CA: Absolutely. Absolutely, you will.
AM: Oh, my god. I mean it sounds so badass.
CA: It is. It is beautiful. Yeah.
AM: Oh, man.
JS: BRB, gonna Google images right now.
AM: All right. Yeah. Check the show notes. We'll have it there. Well, Catherine, thank you so very much for sharing this with us.
CA: You're very welcome.
AM: I'm sure we'll hear from you again with more myths from the indigenous Americans, from Catholic land worldwide, from the Spanish speaking universe.
CA: Would love to.
AM: Your welcome back anytime.
CA: Thanks.
AM: That actually was kind of creepy.
JS: Kind of cool.
AM: Kind of cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil