Episode 230: Jamaican Witches (with Ciannon Smart)
/One trip and one story can change your life, as author Ciannon Smart showed us in this episode. Listen to how her trip to Rose Hall in Jamaica stuck with her for a decade, how she embraced her weird kid energy to learn about vampires and witches, and how it evolved into her debut novel!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of slavery, murder, religious persecution, military/war, racism, and panic attacks.
Guest
Of Jamaican heritage, Ciannon Smart grew up in a small town in the south-east of England. As the only daughter in a house full of boisterous sons, she developed a voracious appetite for reading from an early age, preferring anarchy in stories rather than real life. In YA she loves her heroines exactly as she loves her villains: wilful, wily, and unpredictable. When not writing, Ciannon can be found reading, painting, or taking the long way home to listen to a good song more than once. Her debut novel, Witches Steeped in Gold, is now available.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends The Galaxy, and the Ground Within by Becky Chambers.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 230: Jamaican Witches with Ciannon Smart.
Julia: Oh, Ciannon was such a delight to have on the show. I really like having, like, debuting authors on the show because we just get to nerd out with them. And I feel like they're as excited to be here as we are excited to have them.
Amanda: Absolutely. We cover so much about Jamaican folklore, about English folklore, about the process of writing and making a novel and putting it out to the world for the first time. And Ciannon is just a delightful person. You're definitely gonna want to pick up her book. So, as always, you can find links to her websites and social and where you can pick up her new book, her debut novel, Witches Steeped in Gold, in the description.
Julia: Yep, pick it up. Pick it up. It's so good. I really, really loved it.
Amanda: Speaking of really, really loving books, Julia, what have you been reading, watching, and listening to you this week that I also can pick up?
Julia: So, Amanda, I took a little vacation, you know, last week and had a great time. And one of my favorite things to do while I'm away is just, like, lay out on a blanket and read a book.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: Because obviously. And one of my favorite authors, Becky Chambers, just put out a brand new book called The Galaxy, and the Ground Within. You have heard me rant about how much I love The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet and all of her Wayfarers Series books. And this is the final book in the series. And it was very sweet. And it left me feeling very melancholy in the best kind of way. Definitely pick it up if you like cozy Sci-Fi, which more people should write cozy Sci-Fi because then I could read more cozy Sci-Fi books. But Becky Chambers is the master of it.
Amanda: Oh, that sounds so good. I definitely will.
Julia: Yay.
Amanda: Do you know who I would invite onto my cozy spaceship?
Julia: Is it our new patrons?
Amanda: Our new patrons, Jaybaybay and Marie. What delightful means to say. You join the distinguished ranks of the 400 plus people who are our patrons.
Julia: Wow.
Amanda: And, most notably, our supporting producer level patrons. One of their benefits is having their name read every episode because we so appreciate them and rely on their support. So, thank you to Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, Skyla, and Zazi.
Julia: What wonderful folks. I want to go on a voyage across the stars with all of them.
Amanda: Oh, so true. And thank you to our legend level patrons who are about to get a lovely kind of, like, little Spirits Book Club box in the mail; Audra, Chimera or Change, Clara, Drew, Jack Marie, Ki, Lada, Morgan, Necroroyalty, Renegade, Taylor, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
Julia: The names in the legend level patrons are just getting better and better. Honestly, extremely good.
Amanda: Extremely good. Extremely good. Well, thank you all so very, very much for your support. And, if you are looking for another way to get more Multitude content to hang out with us more and maybe even to see our mouths saying words and, like, hearing our voices but coming out of faces, which is a disconcerting thing when you see it for the first time but also kind of cool, you can watch some Multitude Digital live shows. All of the digital live shows that we have done are archived on our website where you can pick up a video-on-demand copy and watch it back. Even if you are listening in the future and want to see the past shows, they are there for you at multitude.productions/live as well as links to all of our upcoming live shows. And, right now, we are preparing for a live show next week as of when this episode comes out for Join the Party.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: It’s so exciting. We are doing a summary springy, easy breezy, beautiful one-shot set in Lake Town City, where Julia and I both play superheroes. And it is incredibly fun. And no matter – whether you listen to Join the Party, if you're caught up, if you're catching up on a previous campaign, all of it is good. You won't get spoiled or need to know anything really background knowledge wise to enjoy the show.
Julia: I'm getting ready. I'm getting – all of my sleeves are getting cut off of my shirts.
Amanda: Oh yeah.
Julia: It's summertime, baby.
Amanda: Incredible. So, links to the Join the Party live show on May 13th. And all previous live shows are at multitude.productions/live. So, without further ado, we hope you love this conversation with Ciannon Smart as much as we did. Enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 230: Jamaican Witches.
Intro Music
Amanda: Julie and I are so excited to have Ciannon Smart with us on the show today. Ciannon, could you please tell our audience who you are and the amazing stuff that you write?
Ciannon: Hi, everyone. I am Ciannon Smart. And I'm debuting with a Jamaican-inspired YA fantasy called Witches Steeped in Gold. It follows two enemies from rival orders who are forced to unite in order to take down a mutual enemy. And that is kind of my brand. I tend to write about girls getting into trouble and girls who are up to no good fighting horrible people, worse people than them. Just so you're never confused about who to root for.
Julia: Awesome. That is definitely our brand as well. So, that’s – we're very happy to have you here.
Amanda: We love that. Girls behaving badly and, and uniting with people that society wants them to hate is the best.
Ciannon: It is.
Julia: So, I know that you were born in England and your family is from Jamaica. And, in your book, you talked a little bit at the beginning about how you didn't really go grow up with Jamaican mythology and folklore and stuff like that. And you learned about the story that would inspire Witches Steeped in Gold when you went on a family trip to Jamaica. Can you tell us a little bit about how, like, the origin of the story here?
Ciannon: Of course. I wish I could say that it was a dark and stormy night—
Julia: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: —but Jamaica is bright and beautiful. And we visited Rose Hall, which is a plantation in Jamaica. And it was owned by this woman, Annie Palmer, and she owned it with her three husbands, not all at the same time. She used her, her slaves. They practiced Obeah magic, which they brought with them to Jamaica from Africa. And she treated them to help her kill her husbands, so the legend goes. And I was [Inaudible 5:46]. I was completely hooked. I was like, “Wow. This woman sounds like a badass.” I mean she's, she's evil, undeniably so. But, also, using this dark magic to kill off her husbands, I was also just – I just thought it was pretty cool. I loved Sabrina the Teenage Witch. And, so, learning that my own culture had witches and it had magic was really exciting for me. So, I bought the book and I read the book. And I probably should have waited a few years to read the book. I wasn't scared or anything. I – you know, I think my, my childhood is the only girl with all brothers that prepared me to – there wasn't really much I was afraid of. I was a little mature. There were some things I probably should have waited to read about. But I, I loved this dark branch of magic that was feared and is, is still feared. In fact, when I was talking about it with my Jamaican aunts, they were just like, you know, leave that alone. That's not for you. You don't want to touch that. But it, it took me years for me to return back to that childhood trip. The mansion was beautiful, but, also, it felt a little bit gothic. I felt quite dark. The tour guides, they definitely hammed up the whole, “Her ghost has been spotted around this house. And people have taken pictures and they've seen her appear in, in, like, pieces of furniture and whatever.” It was a very magical experience that stayed with me over the next 10 or so years. I was about to turn 12 when I visited the house that time. And I – yeah, I wouldn't start writing the book until I was, like, 22-23.
Julia: Yeah, there's something about that time in just, like, a young girl's life where you're just like, “Yeah, I'm gonna get into, like, really creepy stuff.”
Ciannon: Yeah.
Julia: I'm just gonna get really into crystals and magic and, like, make weird potions on the playground and stuff like that. And I, I love that that's a universal experience for a lot of girls.
Ciannon: We're old and I mean there's no shame in talking about it now. Mine is definitely – we have, like, a wheelbarrow in our garden and I definitely liked to take some red berries from one of the trees out there and put it in there and made a potion. Yeah.
Amanda: I love that.
Julia: We all were there. We all tried that. [Chuckles]
Ciannon: [Laughs]
Julia: But I, I absolutely love that this was just like a single story that kind of stuck with you over a decade and kind of inspired the, the book here. And I absolutely loved it as I read it. I have a couple of questions, I guess, before we just start getting into, like, deeper Jamaican mythology and folklore with you regarding the book. I don't want to spoil anything. So, don't give, like, too much away, I guess, because we want our listeners to make sure that they pick up the book. But I, I really liked the, the use of color that you talked about in the book in terms of, like, the different orders or – you use the phrase [Inaudible 8:31] to kind of show the different orders of magic and each one is kind of a different color. What, what inspired that? Because I've definitely seen that in mythology before. But was there a specific thing that inspired that kind of choice?
Ciannon: Definitely. So, because the African diaspora, lots of the slaves who shipped over to Jamaica came from various African countries. And, when I was researching this book, what I really loved about Africa as a – as a continent was its use of color. I loved the Kente fabric and how the different colors had different meanings. And, although this book is – it's inspired by Jamaica. Jamaica is kind of, like, a patchwork as far as the people who lived there, where they've come from. So, I drew from a lot of different places when I was researching this book. And the Kente fabric, the fact that the colors had meanings I really loved. I knew immediately that I wanted to use that in the – in the world building of witches.
Julia: I noticed and I recognized a couple of, you know, very African-inspired or, you know, direct from African mythology references in the book. You specifically use Anansi as, if I can quote you for a second, the great spider God and brother to our matriarchal pantheon of gods and goddesses. So, I know that you're using, like, straight from African Diaspora mythology in the book, but you also created a bunch of your own gods and goddesses as well. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Ciannon: Yeah. So, Africa, they have a really strong – the country has a really strong pantheon of gods and goddesses and I love that. But, in Jamaica, it's – there's a few there's like the goddess of water. And it sort of didn't fulfill the purpose that I wanted it to fulfill. And I didn't want to butcher that or disrespect it. So, I created my own sort of group of gods and goddesses. I tried to use Spanish names. I think I’ve read an article actually where the, the governor was saying that he wanted – or, I think, it was a governor – Spanish was as much a native language in Jamaica as Patois. So, I, I wanted to incorporate, like, little tiny things like giving the gods and goddesses Spanish names and then drawing from, like, various different pantheons, the different gods that they have, the titles, the, their, like, usage and how people worship them. So, yeah, it's a bit of a – I sort of have drawn from a lot of places and tried to be respectful as far as coming up with my own mythology so as not to, yeah, offend.
Julia: Absolutely. Do you have a personal favorite of the ones that you created? I know that's a – that's like having to choose your children, but I'm just curious.
Ciannon: I do like the idea of a seven-faced god.
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: So, witches is in – is in a few big boxes. And one of them they have drawn the seven-phase model and it just looks really cool. She's holding like – or they, rather, are holding masks, the various masks that they would put on to, to assume the personalities of these various gods. So, I like – I, it's a bit of a cop out, isn't it? I'm picking all women.
Julia: [Chuckles] All of them.
Amanda: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: Yeah, but I do like the idea that, because – I don't know. Religion is – it's difficult to sort of pin down various religions, different beliefs, and so on and so forth. So, I did like this idea of one kind of being with these various faces. It’s a little bit of a mystery to me as well. Some of my, my copy edit notes, they were like, “So, can you elaborate on this god?” And I was like, “Umm, I mean I can, but I also can't, you know.” There's, like, a bit of mystery even to me about this deity.
Julia: Yeah. And no worshipper really knows the full breadth of their gods. So, that absolutely makes sense.
Ciannon: Yeah. Yes, that's what I told her.
Amanda: [Chuckles]
Julia: [Chuckles] You, you focused a lot on ancestral magic in the books specifically for these warring factions. Was there a reason that you decided that was the way to go for your magic system rather than like, “Oh, we just learned the magic,” you know, as various others do?
Ciannon: Yeah, definitely. There's, like, a huge amount of respect for the dead in Jamaican culture. So, we celebrate them across nine nights. Then their life is celebrated across nine nights. And I just thought that that was such an awesome way to honor the departed and to, to keep them in your hearts and to keep them present. And, so, for me, Jamaica's history is – the strength of its history is not contingent upon but definitely has strong roots in the past and those who have come before. Figures like Nanny of the Maroons who have formed such a, an important part in the past, of course. But, definitely, they inform the future also. So, for me, it was just about respecting this – the past and having really strong ties to your family and where you've come from and who you are. And that could definitely be – like, I realized that because I didn't really grow up hearing these stories. And then, finally hearing them and connecting with a side of my family that I hadn't – I wasn't as close to as my relatives who live in England because, obviously, I wouldn't get out to Jamaica like every year. So, yeah, you could definitely say that, as I was connecting with my past and I was thinking about how important it was on a personal level, that the ancestral magic it took on its shape from the island history but then also my, my understanding as I was studying.
Julia: I love that.
Amanda: What were the sort of mythology and folklore that you did grow up with? Like, did you and your friends tell scary stories at sleepovers? Or were there any kind of, like, local, you know, hometown legends that you did have in your hometown in England?
Ciannon: I mean, where I live, the reality was terrifying enough. [Laughs]
Julia: Fair enough.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Fair enough.
Ciannon: Yeah, it was scary enough, you know, without the stories. But there was always like the Boogeyman. That's kind of, like, universal one, isn't it, right?
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: And scary stories, like, I'm sure – again, it's another universal one where two people were sat in a car and one of them gets out and, like, they've heard a noise. And then you need a hand as this ominous voice from the dark and then this bloody arm is thrown across the windshield. Like, all of these kind of classics. I mean I read more than I heard.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Ciannon: I read Goosebumps and I loved Point Horror. So, all of those kind of, like, what happens in the mall after dark. The mannequins come to life. And—
Julia: [Chuckles]
Amanda: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: [Chuckles] That's like a Doctor Who episode.
Amanda: I was just gonna say. Yeah.
Ciannon: They wreak havoc and they’re terrorizing. And, Gremlins, I watched that as a kid as well. And that other one where the toys came to life. Or was that in Gremlins? I don't even remember. But, I kind – I, yeah, I was always surrounded by scary things, which is why I think I'm just a bit inured to, to them. I’m like, “Yeah, this person’s belly is caught and their, like, entrails fall out. But, you know, it's no big deal.”
Julia: Classic. [Laughs] You mentioned Nanny of the Maroons and then you briefly mentioned the Rolling Calves. So, I want you to tell me the, the beautiful stories of Jamaica, honestly. Here we are.
Ciannon: Well, Nanny of the Maroons, she was actually called a – she was called a witch, an Obeah witch. And she led a resistance from the Blue Mountains. So, the Witches Steeped in Gold is not a historical fantasy. Umm, I definitely did pillage some very real world beings that I put in this book. And one of them was the Blue Mountains. I loved the story of how these formerly enslaved Africans who led a coup against the occupation on the island. And they were using these military tactics that the soldiers occupying were totally unfamiliar with. And it was – and, because they didn't understand it, they didn't know it. They called it witchcraft and magic. I love this idea of, like, perception versus reality and playing with that theme in the book. And then the Rolling Calf was definitely something I heard when I was 11 when I went to Jamaica. This, like, massive bull who would sort of hunker down at the crossroads with his neck of chains and his glowing red eyes. And it was a duppy. This – it was a ghost. And it was alleged to be the spirit of someone who had done wrong and it could be summoned and used. Another one that I put in the book was the Ol' Higue. Although, I changed the name in the book. I used Trinidad – the Trinidadian name instead. But this, this creature I love. And I don't want to, like, go too much into detail because I do want to use the creature in, like, another story. But I'm gonna add my own little twist. So, they're like vampires, essentially. And they shed their skin to fly through the night and suck blood from people. And I'm learning all of this at 11. And I absolutely—
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: I absolutely loved it. I just thought it was the coolest thing.
Amanda: Like, yes, perfect. More.
Ciannon: And, if you want to catch one, then you have to put, like, salt and pepper on its skin. I would do that if I ever came across skin out there and [Inaudible 17:04] somewhere. Lots of these, like, very specific traditions that were just so different to me, like, growing up in England. Hearing about the Boogeyman, who, like, hides under your bed. I mean he's not shedding his skin and flying through the night to suck blood from me. So—
Julia: No, it's got a lot more flavor.
Ciannon: What?
Amanda: Yeah. What does the Boogeyman even want? He's just creeping there. Like, there's no – there's no motivation.
Ciannon: No. I watched the Babadook. I always thought that the Babadook was like the Boogeyman. But, yeah, what did he do? Crawl on the ceiling and kind of live in a closet and, yeah, not a lot. He wasn't really harming anyone.
Julia: It's just the threat of his existence, I guess. But being terrified of things that are unknown is probably not the best thing in the world. Oh, no, but I, I just love this image of 11-year-old you being like, “Tell me more about these vampires. What does the skin look like? Do I need to start carrying salt and pepper around all the time?”
Ciannon: Literally like, “And how do I call one of these rolling calves to me? Like, how, how, how does this happen?” I always wanted a dog. And this feels like it would just be a giant dog and I’m not scared. I'm just curious. [Chuckles]
Julia: I, I love that. And I'm, I’m very curious how, I guess, you went about going from this 11-year-old hearing the stories for the first time to starting to research this for the book or for your own personal interest? Did it start as a personal interest thing and then turned into the book? Or was it more like, “I want to write this book. I need to learn as much as possible?”
Ciannon: It was a little bit of both. I carried it with me for 10 years. And I had read, like, a slew of YA fantasy that I loved. And I didn't see myself in the protagonist. It was more like, you know, conceitedly. What if they cast this movie? Like, I'm never gonna be cast in the movie.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Amanda: Mhmm.
Ciannon: I'm never gonna be the leading role. Not – there's, like, no mention of the fact that I shouldn't be acting in public and no one should ever witness. [Laughs]
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: Pretending to, like, bite someone or whatever. I wanted that movie. I wanted that story where I'd be able to, to be the leading lady or leading character. So, I just decided to write it. And I was like, “What would I want to read about?” I'd want to read about witches. I’d want to read about this dark world that feels as much a character as the actual physical characters who are doing stuff and it dictates what they can and can't do. And I loved, loved learning about Obeah magic when I was a kid. And, so, I just – and, my personal tastes, I've always loved things that are a little bit darker and fiction. That was what I was going to write about. So, I asked lots of questions. I spoke with, like, my aunts in Jamaica. I mean I was reading stuff and then – on, like, Google or whatever. And then it would say, you know some of these text, if you read the words, then you're inviting the darkness in your house. [Laughs]
Julia: Oh, boy.
Ciannon: I know. And I was like, “Hmm.” I mean, on the one hand, I've grown up in England. So, there's a healthy amount of skepticism towards most things. But I'm also Jamaican. And I've had my aunts – like, someone made me these business cards when I was literally – I had – I have no business having these business cards.
Julia: [Laughs]
Amanda: [Laughs]
Ciannon: And they had, like, little sparkles on them. And one of my aunts was visiting from Jamaica and she was like, “You have to – you have to throw those out. Like, that's, that's dark magic. There's things on the cards.” And I was like, “Whatever.” But, as a grown up, I was a little bit more respectful to these things I was reading. It was like, “I don't really want to invite anything into my house. I mean I've watched Annabelle and I've watched, like, The Conjuring. And I, I'm aware of – you know, I'm, I don't want to tempt fate. I'm a skeptic, but I'm also a pragmatist. And, you know, realistically, maybe I, I should leave those things alone. So, lots of things came firsthand from, like, aunts and cousins and stuff. They, they, they were great when I was researching.
Julia; That's so awesome. And to, like, have that family connection to the story that you were kind of retelling and bringing new life to is so, so fascinating.
Ciannon: [Chuckles] Yeah.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: Yeah, they, they were great. I think, for me, I kind of – you sink into the world, don’t you? You, like, immerse yourself in it. And you're not necessarily – I wasn't really appreciating – well, I was appreciating what I was hearing as I was putting it into the story. But it isn't now that it's all kind of over and the books should be printed now or will be printed soon, the final copies, that I'll be like, “Oh, wow. I, this, this story is the culmination of, like, years of love of something and then, also, like, my family who were fantastic and answered – in answering all my questions and, like, giving me little things to put in the book. And, yeah.
Amanda: That’s amazing.
Ciannon: It's weird. It's weird, but great.
Julia: Mhmm. Beautiful, beautiful cover art, by the way. I'm very excited to get a physical copy for myself.
Ciannon: Oh, I have literally nothing to do with that. My idea for the cover was so different. [Laughs]
Julia: [Chuckles] I’m complementing the book as a whole. I think it's gorgeous and it really fits what I was picturing as, as I was reading the book.
Ciannon: So great. Ashley Straker, he's the illustrator.
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: He – when I saw the renderings, I was just like, “Wow.” I literally wanted to have, like, a symbol on the book. I didn't want any faces. And the color palette was gonna be, like, black and white. And then, the head of marketing, she's Caribbean and she was like, “No, this is a Jamaican fantasy. It's gonna look like a Jamaican fantasy. So we're going to add green and gold. And we're gonna put girls on the cover.” And, and I was like, “Yes, ma'am. Okay.”
Julia: Yes, ma'am, whatever you say. You're the boss.
Midroll Music
Amanda: Julia, weirdly, one of the things that is bringing me anxiety right now is the fact that I can see my friends again. I don't think I'm the only one who is feeling this where as – you know, it becomes possible to hang out with people, it's like, “Oh, my gosh, what will that be like? Will it be different? Will I be tired? What does it look like?” And just a million different thoughts in your head that, with my particular flavor of brain, is really hard to turn off and really hard to kind of put into context and be like, “Don't worry about that right now, self. Let's just go to sleep maybe because maybe being well rested is good for my health and mental wellbeing.” Well, someone in there did not get the message. So, that is why I really appreciate that I have Calm to turn to in those, you know, tossing and turning sort of anxiety-filled moments. And Calm is the number one mental wellness app. It gives you the tools that improve the way you feel, whether that's guided-daily meditations, curated music tracks, and, of course, their imaginative and very soothing sleep stories. Check out Lucy Lou’s, they're incredible. And Calm right now is offering listeners of the show a special limited time promotion of 40 percent off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/spirits. That is C-A-L-M.C-O-M/spirits for 40 percent off unlimited access to Calm’s entire library. One more time, calm.com/spirits.
Julia: Now, I can just turn on Calm and not worry about maybe going to the zoo and having a panic attack in front of the zebras, you know.
Amanda: Hooray. [Chuckles]
Julia: Amanda, because it is nearly summer, one of my favorite things to do is learn a new skill over the summer because I just – you know, I feel like I have a little bit more free time. The days are longer. There's more hours in the day. There's not actually, but it feels like there are. And there is nothing better than, like, getting better at a thing. So, I highly recommend going to the online classes from Skillshare in order to make learning something new possible. You can learn stuff like illustration, design, photography, productivity, and more. I started taking a class that I really, really like. And, if you follow my Instagram or my Twitter, you know that I've been doing a lot of embroidery lately. But I also picked up recently a watercolor kit because I saw this class, Watercolor in the Woods, a beginner's guide to painting the natural world with this woman, Rosalie Haizlett, who is a nature illustrator. And it just reminds me of all those cool scientific drawings that you would see in books that, like, naturalist would do. And that's always a skill that I wanted to have. And, now, I feel like I'm finally accomplishing that. So, thank you, Skillshare, for that.
Amanda: Hell yeah.
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Amanda: So, something that I didn't count on when starting my own business is how much time all the little stuff takes up; getting insurance, paying bills, chasing down other people who need to pay me and my bills. And sending out stickers, and pins, and packages also takes a long time. Mail can also really be expensive especially if you pay retail price. I didn't realize that company discounts for shipping services is a thing. But that is why, if you have an online business, getting a discount with a company like ShipStation is essential. No matter what you're selling, ShipStation funnels all of your online orders into one interface that you can even access on your phone, which is super helpful. They have discounts to major carriers. So, you can compare quotes and choose the best one for you every time. So, if you want to ship more in less time, you can just use my offer code Spirits to get a 60-day free trial. That's two months free of no hassle and stress free shipping. Just go to shipstation.com, click on the microphone at the top of the page, and type in Spirits. That's shipstation.com, enter offer code Spirits. Make ship happen. And, now, let's get back to the show. Did you grow up wanting to be a writer? I feel like Julia and I are both huge readers growing up and that was definitely in the back of my mind like, “Oh, well, I – you know, I read so many books. Like, clearly, my name should be on one of these spines one day. Was that true for you?
Ciannon: No. [Laughs] I took it for granted. I definitely was a huge reader growing up. Like, I read everything. My parents were reading for the longest time. So, I am second from youngest. And I took, like, the hand-me-downs from my older brothers, their books. And I'd sneak whatever my parents were reading. Like, Memoirs of a Geisha, I read that along with Point Horror and along with The Hobbit. And it wasn't really until I like heard about Twilight and I heard that she wrote that book based on a dream. I was like 15 and I thought that was the coolest thing. And that was the first time when I really realized, “Oh, wait. People write these things.”
Amanda: Yeah.
Ciannon: This is something you can do for a career. You could be a writer. Well, there's a lot of short stories that I've been jotting down on notepads or paper. I could do that for a living. And that's when things really clicked, embarrassingly late in life. [Chuckles]
Julia: [Laughs]
Amanda: That's okay. You got there.
Ciannon: Yeah, I didn't even think about seeing my name on a spine. There seems to be so many hurdles. And I think, how my brain kind of works, I categorize things in steps. Like, this is the first step, write the book. Next step, get an agent. Next step, sell to a publisher. But, when I was at the writing of the book stage, I wasn't thinking about what was to come. I was kind of just focused on that moment in getting that thing – that thing done. So, yeah. [Chuckles]
Amanda: That sounds healthy. [Chuckles]
Julia: Yeah. Just being in the moment, not living for like, “Okay, well, the next step is this.” And then being paralyzed by the, like, idea of having to take all of those multiple steps to get published. You know what I mean?
Ciannon: Yeah. Maybe I’d – maybe it was like I wish I could say that that was what I was actively doing. But I just – I'm, like, hyper focused. I’ll just zoned in on one thing and then, “Okay. What's next?” So, I don't ever kind of – I didn't ever really give myself time, like you said, to worry about what was to come. But it did backfire. Like, after I had the agent and then she's like saying, “So, do you have a list of editors that you want to send this to? Is there anyone you really would love to work with?”
Julia: Like, what?
Ciannon: And I was just – right. [Laughs]
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: You’re like, “What? What are – what are editors? I don't understand.” I’m kidding.
Ciannon: Like, I was just – I was just thinking about you. I’m not ready for this next part.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: How do you think that will be different moving into future books that you write?
Ciannon: Well, I have sold another series. Hasn't announced yet.
Amanda: Congrats.
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: And, speaking of the Boogeyman, he might play a role in this next series.
Amanda: Aah, exciting.
Julia: Who can say? Who can say? Keep an eye out.
Ciannon: And, so, I had a list of editors. I was ready this time around for my, my then agent. And I'm more prepared. And I sort of – going through it this time around has definitely made me more ready for the next time. Lots of things have now become like, I guess, not innate so to speak, but more – I’m more conscious of them. And, so, I get those things in place as I'm working and, and so on and so forth.
Amanda: Nice.
Julia: So, besides talking to the family that you had in Jamaica and had these stories firsthand, what were the kind of go to resources and stories that you were looking for when you started doing the research for the book?
Ciannon: So, because I'd gone to Rose Hall and I read the book, The White Witch of Rose Hall – there's a fictionalized version and a nonfiction.
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: And I read the – I read the story because obviously. [Chuckles]
Julia: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: And, so, I read that and that was kind of my foundation for my research and then speaking about family. But there weren't really any books. YouTube, I watched YouTube a lot like videos and I watched some documentaries. But, largely, because it's a fantasy, I kind of was like, “You can – you can kind of do what you want as long as you're being respectful.” And that was, I guess, my biggest hurdle. But, my first books that I wrote, they weren't fantasy. They were like contemporary fantasy adjacent. [Laughs]
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: Because I didn't think I had the imagination to meet half a world. I just didn't think I could do it. And, so, that was like my biggest hurdle. It was you can do this and you can put this in the book. Like, who's to say you can't do it? It's not historical. It's, it's your story. Does this tie in with what you were hoping to achieve at the end – for the end result? Yes, then great. No, then leave it out. And that was kind of – that was – that was kind of it. It was, like, freeing when I accepted that this wasn't – it just didn't have to be historically accurate.
Julia: Yeah, I, I ask that mostly because I don't want anyone who's interested in, like, writing a book in the future, “You don't have to spend hours, you know, digging into anthologies in the library and, like, getting really into, like, the encyclopedic definition of these gods and goddesses that you want to draw inspiration from. Like, as long as you're being respectful, you can create a world that is beautiful, and luscious, and full just like your book.
Ciannon: For sure. I think, totally, 155,000,000 percent—
Julia: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: You do not have to spend hours. I'm not one of those writers. I get too excited. I can't, like, sit and just kind of – you know, people fill out tables or questionnaires. What's your climate in the world like? And what do they wear? And how is income produced? And I looked at these things and I was like, “Nah, this is – that's not who I am.”
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: I'm kind of, “I’ll muddle through and figure things out as I go along.” But, yeah, no, you definitely don't have to.
Julia: Yes. You don't have to do a bunch of – a bunch of research, I promise. It's fiction. It's okay, guys.
Ciannon: I mean it's still hard, but we have it easier than those writing historical fantasy.
Julia: Yep. Yep, for sure.
Amanda: We interviewed an author yesterday, who had the exact opposite approach to world building—
Julia: [Chuckles] We did.
Amanda: —and, and writing fiction. That's very exciting for me because, as a person myself, like, I spend so much time kind of, like, resisting or, like, wishing my brain were different or my ways were different. It is nice to hear people be like, “This is my style and I run – I will run with it. You know, like, it's different for other people. This is what works for me. And, you know, what's important at the end of the day is that I get to do something that I enjoy in a way I enjoy.”
Ciannon: For sure. There's a lot of that comparison culture, isn't there?
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: This person is doing all these things.
Amanda: Yeah.
Ciannon: I have to. No. I think I was kind of lucky that, when I initially started, I wasn't on – I mean I had Twitter because people at my college had Twitter. But I didn't really interact with the writing community. So, in some ways, it was a help. In others, it was a bit of a hindrance. I may have written better books sooner if I knew what the hell I was doing. But [laughs]—
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: But, definitely, I kind of was on my own. And, so, there wasn't – there wasn't that pressure to do this because this famous person is doing it. No. And, and, even though there is that pressure now, definitely, don't – you don't have to prescribe to what everyone else is doing. Just do your own thing.
Julia: Yeah, I feel like, every time someone shares, like, oh, Stephen King writing tip or, like, a Neil Gaiman writing tip, people take that as gospel. And I just don't think that – if that works for them, that's awesome and people should try it if what they're doing now isn't working for them. But to, like, hold one idea of how writing should be done is just silly because everyone's brain works different.
Ciannon: Definitely. I think learning your strengths and weaknesses, too, will help you filter what kind of information you're taking in. So, I knew that, from people who'd read my work, that my structuring was terrible and I wasn't always – sometimes, I'd be too obsessed with pretty words and descriptions. And plot? What the hell is that? [Chuckles]
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: So, knowing that those were things that I needed to work on meant that the help that I was looking up, they were, like, really tailored and specific to my weakest areas and, and working on making those strengths definitely rather than copying or, like, relying on those quotes. I mean I know I have someone – I know someone who reads one of the Stephen King books on writing or, if there's only one, then she reads that. And that's what she reads before she starts writing her stories in the morning.
Amanda: Oh, my god.
Ciannon: I read fiction before I start writing in the morning. I don’t, you know, read advice. But that, that – just think different things work for different people, [Inaudible 33:45] said. Yeah, try on different hats.
Amanda: While we're on subject, what is your routine and structure? What do you like to read and kind of surround yourself with while you're writing?
Ciannon: Oh, routine and structure. Do you remember those before the pandemic?
Amanda: I know.
Julia: What's a routine? I don't – I just sit in my – in front of my computer all day now. And—
Amanda: Yeah, you can just – same then.
Julia: —hope for the best
Ciannon: You know, that – I mean, when I get out of bed, that's definitely what I try to do, you know.
Amanda: Yeah.
Ciannon: So, I'm researching a different book at the moment. And, so, I'm reading lots of thrillers, but I like to immerse myself in the genre that I am writing as I am reading. But, again, that's what works for me. It doesn't work for everyone. I know of someone else who can't read fantasy when she's writing fantasy. I'm reading lots of thrillers, but I'm also – I love – I've always loved a thriller. So, even if I was writing Witches Steeped in Gold II, I'd still read a thriller. It doesn't – it doesn't necessarily matter so long as my creative well is being filled. I don't limit myself with word counts even if I'm on deadline. I am more of like – I focus on chapters more so than word count. And, I guess, it just depends really. I don't – one thing that's consistent, one thing I can cling on to is the fact that I don't write every day. I just—
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: I don’t do it. I get way too burnt out, too tired. Even though I work, I write full time. I am – and, so, I have the time to write every day. I, I just don't. I don't. I don't even read every day. That's one thing that's consistent. It’s just giving myself time off. Just don't, don't be like me. I wish I was like, “I wake up at 6:00 and then I work out until 7:00.”
Amanda: No.
Ciannon: And then I have like a coffee. And then I sit down and bleed at my computer for five hours for before getting.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Ciannon: But I, I don't. [Laughs]
Amanda: But that's why I think it's, it’s important for people to hear that too and, you know, why I asked. Not because I want to hear the same thing I see on Twitter, which is, like, get up at 6:00, and do my morning pages, and, like, workout extensively, and then, like, write for seven hours because that's not how everybody works and I would say how most people work.
Julia: Right. And, like, imagine doing the thing that you do for work, listener who's listening to this right now, imagine doing that every single day until a project is done. I couldn't even possibly imagine not being able to take, like, small breaks or work on different things or something like that. Like, I wouldn't be able to write every day if writing with my job. That seems impossible.
Ciannon: No, it's – I mean, there are some robots who do it. And I kind of like—
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: I don’t get it.
Ciannon: Yeah, I'm like, “No.” I’m like, “How the hell do you – how?” Well, I just – no, I just can't. And I mean, maybe if I did, I wouldn't have these moments where it's like, “Oh, no, my book is due in a week and I've got to write 5,000 words a day.”
Julia: [Laughs] But it's just – I don’t know. This is my process. It's what kind of mostly works for me, I guess. I mean, I have a book. The book is coming out. So, clearly, some, something, something works.
Amanda: Exactly. You – whatever you're doing works for you. And I think – I think it's important for people to hear that as well because, you know, knowing yourself, knowing what works for you for giving yourself – you know, taking the right amount of input time, rest, all that stuff that you need to enjoy your life and, also, do your work I think is, is admirable.
Julia: Yeah.
Ciannon: Thank you.
Julia: [Chuckles]
Amanda: Ciannon, is there anything that you haven't touched on that you would love to talk about or wish people asked you about in, in interviews about this book?
Ciannon: I'd love to talk about structure, actually—
Julia: Sure.
Amanda: Sure.
Ciannon: —I think, because so structure is like, I guess, another – my hope, anyway, that it becomes a bit of the hallmark of mine. I love working towards twists in the story. And that's definitely something I spend the most time on. So, structure, I guess, is my equivalent of those sheets that you can get from Pinterest with the climate and technology and all of that stuff. That's what I, I really love to look at. So, it's not just kind of, like, when reveals are going to be made, but definitely things like mirroring, like introducing something here and then coming back to it at the end of the story. So, for Witches Steeped in Gold, because it's a dual POV, I had to find a way to make Iraya and Jazmyne stories come together but also keep their narratives original and separate. It was difficult. It's – one of my favorite parts of any book is just thinking about how I'm going to tell this narrative in the best possible way to cause my readers immense pain and suffering.
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: And, and, yeah. So, I love, like, the opening part of Witches Steeped in Gold is one of my favorite things to write once I worked with my editor and I got my letter. And it was like, “Okay. We need to slow this down and have this here and whatever else. And, so, setting that up was a lot of fun to me.” And I definitely think there's lots of emphasis on plot and character. And that was lots of fun as well. But structure and making really smart choices about how this narrative was going to come forward and then what was going to happen at the end, that was a lot of – a lot of thought to me. But, actually, part one and two were definitely planned, but part three was, was kind of, like, a by the seat of my pants. What have I done in part one and two? And then how to – how can these things come together for part three?
Julia: Mhmm.
Ciannon: So, structure is definitely my favorite, my favorite part of writing.
Amanda: Is that something you notice in other books? Like you mentioned thrillers, and, to me, that's my favorite part of a thriller. It’s like I know from the page – yeah, actually, both thriller and romance. I'm like I know, from the page count how much is left, exactly what needs to happen and, yet, I am aghast every time. Like, how dare you do this to me.
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: [Laughs] Those are the best stories though, isn't it? When the – it’s like the, the Point Horror. They're so formulaic, you know.
Amanda: Yeah.
Ciannon: She's going to meet him and then they're gonna run into some trouble. And there's gonna be some bad stuff. And then, at the end, things will be okay, but you just love it. It's – there's, like, safety in structure in a lot of stories as well.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: What I also really appreciated that, I think, some dual point of view books kind of suffer from is you very clearly were able to get the tone of your characters across when you're switching the point of view. I feel like, sometimes, in other books, like, that can get a little muddled. But, like, I knew the Jazmyne chapters without having to look to see, at the beginning of the chapter, who was talking. You know what I mean?
Ciannon: Yeah, their voice, they were – Jazmyne, she actually – she gave me a lot of trouble. Ira was easy. We are maybe most alike. So, it – and, and she's the character that I, I love, the kind of devil may care, very irreverent character. Her kind of deal was definitely less obvious than Ira’s. So, thank you for saying that. Thank god. [Laughs]
Julia: [Laughs]
Ciannon: If you could tell the difference between the two. Ah, I started writing the book and it was in third person. So, changing it to first person, I think, that will happen really quickly. So, I – we worked on the voice and refining voice and Jasmine more so than Ira. Although, I did have to make Ira a little bit more likeable.
Julia: [Laughs] I liked her from the moment she got introduced. So, you're good there.
Amanda: Yeah.
Ciannon: She, she does – she does some bad things. But, like I said at the very beginning, that’s – I just love a female character who is unapologetic about doing bad things. Like, you get it. You get what you want. That's fine with me. But, um, yeah, no, they – Ira was – Ira was easier. But then, in the sequel, I had the opposite. Ira was harder. Jazmyne has been the easier voice to write. So, yeah.
Julia: They just switch on you sometimes, huh?
Ciannon: Oh, wily, wily characters.
Julia: I am like two thirds of the way through right now. So, I'm not quite angry with you yet. But I've, I've been loving it.
Ciannon: Almost spoiled. Well, yeah, there are – I just annotated a chapter for a book box. And, I guess, I got to go into why I made certain choices with the narrative and so on and so forth. And that was a lot of fun for me to kind of crack open my skull and be like, “So, this is what's going on. And then this is why I'm saying I hope it hurts because, I like laid all of these seeds to, to bloom to the – like, this thicket to bloom. This, like, twisty, thorny bush. It’s not like a – it’s like roses. So, it's pretty. But, main, mainly, I want it to be twisty and dark. And, yeah.
Julia: Wild roses.
Ciannon: Yes.
Julia: There you go.
Amanda: Very poetic. Well, that's all I think I have, Julia. How about you?
Julia: That's it. I, I'm just so pleased that we were able to talk about this. And I was so glad that we were able to have you on the show, Ciannon, and talk about your wonderful, wonderful book.
Ciannon: Thank you both, Julia and Amanda, for inviting me. It's been a great. I do have a question, actually, if you don’t mind.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Of course.
Ciannon: Who is your fighter? I know, Amanda, you haven't read yet. But, Julia, who are you rooting for?
Julia: Oh, oh, I don't know. I don't know. It's so hard. That's hard to pick and I don't want to spoil for anyone. But, oh, my gosh, I, I can't decide. I'm sorry. [Chuckles]
Ciannon: That's okay. That's fine. I think most people have one answer. Several others have had a different answer. I'm like, “That's so interesting. Tell me why immediately.”
Julia: I’ll – I’ll have to update you when I finished the book which one – which one's mine.
Amanda: Everybody, there are links in the description of the podcast episode where you can pick up a copy as well as where you can find out more about Ciannon. But thank you so, so much for joining us.
Ciannon: Thank you so much.
Amanda: And remember everyone.
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil