Episode 26: The Hero’s Journey (with Mischa Stanton)
/All stories have the same roots - or, at least, that’s what our boy Joseph Campbell says. This week, we enter into the cycle of The Hero’s Journey with special guest Mischa Stanton. We’ll talk Basic Hero Bitches, the archetype behind grumpy Obi-wan Kenobi, stories of our theatre school dropout days, and just how to get past self-loathing when fighting the forces of evil.
Mischa Stanton is creator of Ars Paradoxica and audio producer of The Bright Sessions. Find them on Twitter @DoGudSnd. Our Time Travel audio extra is at Patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast.
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. Plus, check out our Patreon for bonus audio content, director’s commentary, custom recipe cards, and more. We can also be reached at spiritspodcast@gmail.com.
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 26: The Hero's Journey with Mischa Stanton. I'm going to keep it short this week, y'all. We are getting really meta with this awesome, awesome episode on the Joseph Campbell kind of heroes concept, our favorite heroes in various media from Legend of Korra to Alice in Wonderland to Frodo. It's really, really good. Mischa Stanton, is creator of the fabulous audio drama ars PARADOXICA and the audio producer of the Bright Sessions, which we have gushed about before, and the creator of which Lauren Shippen was on for our Stonehenge episode. So, basically, you've got some audio royalty this week. The Season 2 Finale of ars PARADOXICA is on March 1st. So, go on and get caught up before the break. Finally, a big thanks to our newest patrons this week, Megan, Thea, and Dennis. If you want to hear your name read on air next to these noble lambs selkies, our patrons, you can join us on patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast. And our final and biggest things to our supporting producer level patrons Liam Davis, Shannon Alford, and Phil Fresh. But, now, gear up, get ready for Spirits Podcast Episode 26: The Hero's Journey with Mischa Stanton.
Intro Music
JS: Welcome to Spirits Podcast. We are here today with a special guest and audio wizard, Mischa.
MS: Hello.
JS: Welcome Mischa.
AM: Welcome Mischa.
MS: I'm so --
AM: Tell us all of your projects.
MS: Oh, god. There are so many of them by now. Well, first and foremost, I am the co-creator and producer of ars PARADOXICA.
AM: Yey. We love PARADOXICA.
JS: We love ars PARADOXICA. It's so good.
MS: I've been doing this show for six years now even though it only had just been out for like a year and a half.
AM: Wow. You're like – you're like a podcasting Baby Boomer.
MS: Yeah. Right. I also am the audio producer of The Bright Sessions. I'm doing sound design consulting for an upcoming show called Otherworldlies. And I'm taking pitches for my next thing or two or three that will probably come out by the middle of next year.
JS: Nice.
AM: So good. So good.
JS: All right. So, Mischa, first off, what are you drinking tonight?
MS: Tonight, I'm drinking tequila and orange juice.
JS: Nice.
MS: It's a very – it’s a very nice tequila. It's numbered, which I am told is a thing that fancy liquors do.
JS: I know that scotch and like whiskies do that. I've never heard of numbered tequila, but I'm super into it.
AM: Not my expertise.
MS: This is 23094.
AM: A small batch?
JS: Oh, yeah. I think that's small batch. That makes sense.
AM: Right on. Right on.
JS: I thought you were talking like, "Oh, like 15-year-age tequila." I'm like, "I don't think that's a thing." But I could be wrong.
AM: And I don't know how appropriate that drink is to what we're discussing because I don't know what we're discussing. So, what are we discussing?
MS: Oh, my gosh. Today, we're discussing The Hero's Journey.
JS: Yes.
MS: The Hero's Journey, as we know it, was an attempt by a mythology scholar, Joseph Campbell, to find the Eyre story of humanity. The story that --
JS: Of Jealousy.
MS: Yeah. That they tell you over and over again. This came about because he was a scholar in the '40s right when Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud were coming out with their theories of the mind. And he thought to apply mythology to theories of the mind.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That makes sense. And you have so much human stories to go off of. Why not, you know, apply it?
MS: Yeah. So, first things first, a little rundown of just what it is for people who don't know. The Hero's Journey begins with a hero. Usually, they are, well talented, but perhaps lacking something in their life. They are told to go on a quest. They either accept or refuse the call to the quest. And then end up going on it anyway.
AM: I was thinking about Frodo when we – when we describe this journey because it is so formulaic. And it is such a good example of this kind of thing.
JS: Yes, absolutely. Tolkien totally nails that shit.
AM: He does.
MS: Oh, I have a whole list of examples. We're gonna – we're gonna get there.
AM: You know, we love examples, Mischa.
JS: We do love good examples.
MS: Okay. So, so, when they go on the quest, they, they encounter fabulous trials. A decisive victory is one whereupon a reward is obtained and then brought back to the community from whence the hero came to then bestow upon them the gifts of the gods.
AM: Nice.
JS: Nice.
MS: And that's pretty much the Hero's Journey in a nutshell. Joseph Campbell looked at a ton of different religions. Of course, he started with Christianity and Judeo-Christian myths.
JS: Of course. It's the easiest to go to I suppose.
AM: [inaudible 4:37]
MS: I mean it's just the closest to home I guess. You know, you start with what you know and expand from there. But, from there, he went on to – he really loved Eastern religions and Eastern culture. So, he applied it to Chinese myths; specifically, Journey to the West --
JS: Yeah.
MS: -- which is like a big Chinese folklore thing that incorporates a lot of Buddhism and stuff. He applied it to Osiris from Egypt and Theseus and Odysseus from the Greek and Romans.
AM: These Romans I know.
JS: Yes. Amanda goes, "Oh, wait. I know that one."
MS: He also talked a lot about Dante in Dante's Inferno.
AM: Of course, yeah.
MS: The character of Dante, not the author Dante. That often confuses me.
JS: Yeah. That dude is super weird. He's like – he's like doing some weird like political satire that no one gets anymore, because it was political satire from like the 1400s. So, everyone's like, "Oh, maybe. Maybe."
MS: Well, Joseph Campbell really likes talking about Dante as a Hero's Journey. He also mentions the Mahabharata, which I hope I pronounced correctly, which is --
JS: Pretty close.
MS: -- Indian myth. And also one I particularly liked, because you guys just talked about it, is Maui. Maui is a big Hero's Journey guy.
JS: Oh, we love Maui.
AM: Yeah. Heck, yeah.
JS: We love Maui now.
MS: Yeah.
AM: I do. He's pictured, The Rock, in a big like cradle of hair just in the ocean just hanging.
JS: Just chilling out.
MS: Yeah. And then he goes on a quest to like be accepted by his family and goes through a bunch of trials.
AM: Right. He does.
MS: And then wins the god's love and returns it to the culture of Hawaii. It's a nice hero's journey. You can do all of these stories this way, which is super cool. And then what's great is that they don't include it in the book very much because he starts talking about all these cultures, and then spends a bunch of time talking about Judeo-Christian myths, and then kind of ends the book there, because the book was written in 1949. But, since then, a bunch of scholars have picked up more modern examples of hero's journeys.
AM: Nice.
MS: Like Narnia and The Hobbit and --
JS: Of course.
AM: Yey.
MS: -- and Alice in Wonderland, which is one of my favorite hero's journeys.
AM: It's Julia's too.
JS: It's such a good one. It's such like a – all right. Hold on. We got to talk about Alice in Wonderland for a second. Because --
MS: All right. All right.
AM: Tangent. [Inaudible 6:42].
JS: -- I feel like Alice in Wonderland just – it's not your typical Hero's Journey just because it's a little bit random in comparison. But, when you apply it to real-world scenarios, Alice – like it fits the journey so well. And all the archetypes are there just like veiled in a particularly interesting way.
AM: Right. The queen, the jesters, the, you know, villain.
JS: Like the, the caterpillar as the mentor is like insane. Like I love that concept.
AM: Oh, yeah.
MS: I actually – I think the caterpillar is the belly of the whale, which is a specific trial --
AM: Oh, yeah.
MS: -- which lets them – which lets the hero specifically know the new rules by which they live in – on the road to trials.
JS: I would also say that the – oh, I'm forgetting the name of the thing. But, when they're all running around in the circle, it's all the fish – not fish – all the birds and stuff running around in the circle.
MS: Oh, the dodo.
AM: The carcass.
JS: Oh, yes. With the dodo. Yes.
MS: Yeah. I also have written down here The Maltese Falcon as a hero's journey.
AM: Sure.
JS: I don't know that one.
AM: Sure.
MS: Which I – which I think – it's a – it's like the modern example of like noir. It's like the staple noir classic book.
JS: Oh, okay.
AM: Yeah. Like classic detective crime thriller.
JS: Amanda's got that.
MS: But like you are, as a whole, also really ascribes to the hero's journey whereby there's a call to adventure where the dame walks into his office.
AM: Yes. Yes.
MS: Then a road to trials where --
AM: Good use of the word dame.
MS: Yes.
AM: Good use of the word dame.
JS: Excellent, excellent dame.
MS: And then the detective goes and finds clues, and that's the road to trials. And there's usually a meeting of the goddess somewhere where he gets betrayed by some femme fatale.
AM: And also has to look at and confront his own values and kind of realize that, you know, the values of the world are different sometimes. And compromise is sometimes necessary. Like that's often, you know, kind of like the second or third act feature of the noir story.
MS: Yeah. Which is a big part of the hero's journey, because Joseph Campbell was all about the hero's journey as a story we tell ourselves over and over as kind of a – like a ritual that humanity goes through.
AM: Yeah.
MS: Like transitioning from childhood to adulthood was big in the hero's journey.
JS: Which I think is super interesting, because like we, as people, really like the concept of ritual.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Even if the rituals vary from religion to religion or culture to culture --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- the ritual is always there.
AM: Right. It's constantly.
JS: Right.
AM: It's cultural capital that we carry and making us feel like we're at home wherever we are. And I was actually thinking, as you were describing the arc of the hero's journey so well, that it's sort of like the kind of most basic case is hunting, right? Like you leave the enclosure, or the cave, or the village, you go out to face some unknown. You, you know, walk through a maze. And you have to have some kind of final encounter. Maybe you confront your morality that is it right or not to kill a fellow creature. Like, you know, you kind of have to like go through that. And then you bring your reward back to the village stronger and wiser and a little bit more disillusioned for it.
JS: The moment you said enclosure, all I could think of was M. Night Shyamalan's, The Village.
AM: Come on, Julia.
JS: Sorry.
AM: I'm trying to make a good reference here.
JS: Then you know I always get distracted.
MS: That one is just a good hero's journey too. What's her name? Bryce Dallas Howard is a good hero's journey.
AM: Yeah.
MS: She brings back the --
JS: With the – with the shitty – with the shitty twist ending for M. Night Shyamalan, but still pretty good hero's journey.
MS: Well, that's the boon that M. Night Shyamalaan could have chosen to return with or not, and he chose to. And maybe we don't like him for it.
JS: Yes.
AM: Oh, no. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Skip 30 seconds and we don't want to – if you don't want to know. Is that the one where they – at the end of it, she's like at the side of the highway, and it's not olden times.
JS: Yes, exactly.
AM: It's new times.
JS: Yes.
AM: Interesting.
JS: You got it. You got it.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Mischa just looks so embarrassed right there. She’s like, “Ugh.”.
AM: Julia, this is our friendship. This is our friendship.
JS: Oh, M. Night Shyamalan freak. What were you thinking?
MS: But that brings up the next thing I want to talk about, which is postmodern examples of the hero's journey,
AM: Postmodernism.
MS: Yes. So --
JS: Love it.
AM: Heck, yeah.
MS: So, the postmodern story of the hero's journey really kicks off in the 1970s when who should stumble upon the book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, but George Lucas.
AM: Oh, George, who else?
JS: George Lucas of course, who else?
MS: You know --
AM: Also, just for context, a time of great upheaval in the like literary criticism community where things are being introduced like biographic criticism for example, thinking about who is the author was, the, you know, time period in which he or she or they were raised, you know, what their kind of cultural --
JS: Kind of reliable narrative.
AM: -- context were, you know, and kind of taking into context, like, you know, what the author was thinking and how their life as a person might have influenced the work. Anyway, but all kinds of things, you know, sexual and gender kind of based criticism. All kinds of cool stuff happening for the first time in the '70s.
JS: And also Star Wars.
AM: Also Star Wars.
MS: Well, yeah, that's what we're talking about. So, George Lucas stumbles on The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, and it changes his life. He totally gets how movies are made and written now. So, he takes the book and crafts a narrative around the book for the first time as opposed to fitting the book to narratives. So --
AM: That's awesome.
MS: Yes.
AM: And explains a lot about Star Wars.
JS: Mischa, you have no idea how excited I am. I was like, "Oh, postmodern.' I'm like I'm not sure what he's gonna pick. And you're like George Lucas. I'm like Star Wars. Yes, of course.
AM: Yes.
MS: Star Wars.
JS: It's literally like cut and paste for the hero's journey.
MS: It actually is. He wrote out the script based on the 17 points of the hero's journey in the book.
AM: Wow.
MS: And it's the first time anybody did that. And, of course, Star Wars went from like this weird esoteric thing that they thought nobody was gonna like and turned huge.
AM: Hmm. I wonder why. Is there something at the bottom of it that's like universal to humanity? Hmm.
MS: Well, really I wonder.
JS: To be honest, Amanda, if you look at the interviews or like letters that the guy who played Obi Wan Kenobi was writing during the filming --
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: -- he's like who would go and like this. This is a piece of shit. He's just like a snobby British guy. Like why am I in this? Fuck it. Throw it away.
AM: But I mean I, I watched Star Wars for the first time as an adult. No one is surprised. I missed everything good as a kid.
JS: You did. We're proud of you.
AM: And, and Eric and Julia told me, you know, don't think of this as like specific characters. Think of these as like archetypes. Like these are – this is like – you know, it's why they call it an opera. Like sort of aberratic.
JS: It's just based on [Inaudible 12:49].
AM: Like there are types. You know, they are indulging or engaging in these like rituals that everyone can relate to. And, through that lens, I was able to, you know, not be distracted by the lack of exposition and so dramatic confrontations because it's a hero's journey.
MS: Uhmm. It surely is. And, since then, filmmakers and media makers in general, as media has evolved through the 70s up until now, had been trying to just do that. Right to the hero's journey instead of trying to like apply the hero's journey to whatever they wrote after. So, like I have a bunch of examples written down here, which is great.
JS: Yes.
AM: Let's do it.
MS: So, the first one I have – you guys really like Harry Potter.
AM: We do.
JS: Of course, we do.
MS: See, I'm not a Harry Potter fan. So --
JS: It's okay.
AM: Truer words have never been spoken.
MS: But, Harry Potter, classic, classic hero's journey, where --
AM: Yes.
MS: -- the road to trials just takes like five books.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Seven.
AM: Seven arguably.
JS: Yeah.
MS: Yeah, that's fair. So, that one's just – it goes through the steps really well and breaks it out into a seven part sectioning, which instead of three parts, which is what it usually is. Also, I have down here, Avatar the Last Airbender. Classic hero's journey.
JS: Of course. So good. So, so good. Especially with the reluctant hero no less. Like that's such a good archetype that they really dive into. And he takes a while to come into his own, but he totally does in the end.
MS: Yeah.
AM: And that's so – that's so funny. As you're naming these examples, I'm thinking to myself, I mean these are just stories, right? But like that's how ubiquitous the hero's journey is to those of us raised on media, you know, made in the 70s and after. That we just think, oh, just – that's just a story,you know, where there's like a challenge, the world expands,a confrontation. It finishes. There's some resolution at the end. Like that's not how all stories go. A story could be like, she left the village and no one ever saw her again. You know, like it could be, you know, whatever you want.
JS: Totally folktales, but yeah.
AM: Yeah. And, and I'm curious too, Mischa, if you have any examples of kind of famous works that go against or subvert this trope at all. Because, when we think of twist endings, right, or we think of like things that are unsatisfying in some way, I'm sure, if we interrogated that a little bit more, it would be, you know, things that deviate from that hero's journey ideal.
MS: Oh, I have a classic one. And it's the sequel to what we just talked about, Avatar: The Legend of Korra.
AM: Yes.
JS: With our – with with our babe, Janet Varney, who is an adorable human being in general.
MS: Oh, hey. I think that that is the – a really great example of someone taking the hero's journey and saying, "Okay. Well, what if, when you were trying to do that, you just didn't do it? Like what if you just missed that step on the hero's journey? Like what, what would happen?" It's important to find the, the stories that subvert the hero's journey. Because what you were saying before about how so many stories have it and Hollywood is filled with hero's journeys, there's a reason. And I'm about to spoil some Hollywood magic for you. So spoilers for that.
JS: Let’s do it.
AM: So ready. So ready. Spoil it.
MS: There's a book about screenwriting called Save the Cat.
AM: Awesome.
MS: It is a page by page breakdown of script writing for an hour and 40 minute-ish long movie that ascribes every single genre you've ever seen to the hero's journey, such that it appeals to American audiences.
JS: I love and hate that at the same time. I love [Inaudible16:09] describe that.
AM: I love that it's possible.
MS: Yeah.
AM: I hate that it's possible.
MS: And most of the movies that you've seen that ascribe to a hero's journey, but like are not great movies – like not memorable movies, are pretty much Save the Cat movies.
AM: Hmm.
JS: Fair enough.
MS: I've read Save the Cat. It really spoils some of the magic of movies, but I'm also a theater technician. So, I'm about spoiling the magic anyway.
JS: Us too.
AM: What?
JS: We feel that.
AM: Hey.
JS: Amanda was a stage manager and lighting --
AM: And sound designer.
JS: And then I was a props mistress and techie.
MS: Oh, my god.
AM: That's why we love each other.
MS: I got into --
AM: We are just each other's types.
MS: I got into podcasts because I was a sound designer, who couldn't get work in live theater.
AM: Awww.
JS: Amanda went into finance. You're fine. Don't worry about it.
MS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. No. You gotta – you gotta make a living. I was ushering a show yesterday, which I do just, you know, volunteers and ushered ABC shows for free. That would be to, you know, get involved in theater in some way. And I miss it so much. At some point – like I was in the house, setting programs on the seats. You know, pre, pre-setting it before the house opened. And the stage manager came on the announcement system and said, "Okay. You know, doing a full blackout, you know, in 30." And I said thank you blackout. And her head like whipped around. Like you're one of us. I was like haven't lost it. I have my blacks on. Like I'm ready to go.
MS: Fantastic. Okay.
AM: Anyway, tangent.
MS: Back to – back to hero's journey. So, Save the Cat is really what has driven Hollywood for the past little while, but there's also other media to consider that's come out in the postmodern era.
AM: What do you mean there are non-movie media?
MS: There is like X number of things.
JS: We like don't understand what you're talking about.
MS: The biggest medium that has risen in the past little while is games.
AM: Yes.
JS: Yes.
MS: Classically, D&D. A lot of Dungeons and Dragons modules that dungeon masters run are just straight up hero's journeys that make the protagonist the heroes.
JS: Yeah. That's, that's pretty legit. Mischa, do you listen to Adventure Zone by the My Brother, My Brother and Me boys?
MS: No. Daniel Manning, who writes ars PARADOXICA with me has been getting on my case to listen to that for such a long time. And I just --
AM: I think you would like it.
JS: Mischa, you gotta.
MS: I know.
JS: It's really good. Their most recent --
MS: There's too many process, guys.
JS: I know.
AM: I know. I know. I know.
JS: But their most recent --
AM: You need a time turner like Hermione at the beginning of Book Three of Harry Potter.
MS: Don't even get me started about the time turner, okay?
JS: Oh, no. That was a bit --
AM: [Inaudible 19:37].
JS: Mischa, we might record an extra about the time turner after this episode just saying.
MS: Awesome.
FA: Listeners, this is future Amanda. We did record that audio extra. You can visit our Patreon, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast to hear us get really fiery about time turners for like way longer than we probably should have. It's free. It's open to everybody. Go check it out, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast.
JS: But, yeah, so they did a – they're doing really good arcs right now. And they're really delving into the characters' backstories like before the – before the actual --
AM: Campaign.
JS: -- campaign started. And I just feel like you would really enjoy it, because they're really diving into that hero's journey stuff. It's really legit.
MS: So – but D&D is a really good one. A game I just played recently that has a really good hero's journey is Betrayal at the House on the Hill.
AM: Hmm. What's that?
MS: It's just a board game. It's about – it's like a procedurally-generated haunted house.
AM: I like that.
MS: If you've ever seen Cabin in the Woods --
AM: Whoa. Yes.
JS: Yeah.
MS: -- where there's a – the basement full of objects.
AM: Yes.
MS: There – that – the game is a basement full of objects, where, if you find a certain object in a certain room, it triggers one of 50 different end-game scenarios.
AM: So cool.
JS: That's really cool. Jake would be into that.
MS: It's a ton of fun.
AM: Yes.
MS: That, that betrayal at the house on the hill, usually sets off what in the hero's journey is called the flight, which is --
JS: Yeah.
MS: -- where you get the boon. You get the boon. You get the knowledge. You get the object. And then, like Prometheus with the fire, you have to run from what gave it to you.
JS: Okay. GTFOH as they say.
MS: Yeah.
AM: Nice. And is there – is there a trial in the return leg normally? Is that a --
MS: There can be. In Betrayal at the House on the Hill, you usually have to either complete some ritual or kill the bad guy.
AM: Cool.
MS: But --
JS: Killing the bad guys is usually the return trial.
AM: Use that Koopa Shell. Send that bouncer off the edge of the tilting platform.
JS: Whoa. That was a reference that I didn't think you would ever make.
AM: Wooh.
JS: Damn. All right.
AM: The single game I know.
JS: I see how it is.
MS: Want some video games with heroes journeys? First off, Legend of Zelda.
AM: Of course.
MS: Legend of Zelda.
AM: Tell me about it.
MS: Any game in the Legend of --
AM: I know, at least, three men with Legend Zelda tattoos in the same place. [Inaudible 20:47].
MS: Okay. Okay. Legend of Zelda are a bunch of differently themed games all centering around a hero named Link, who usually has to defeat some dungeons and collect some MacGuffins to bring them together to save the Princess Zelda from some bad guy.
AM: Okay.
MS: Each one has a different culture that Link comes from, and a different world that it revolves around, a different gameplay mechanics. But they all center around Link, who is trying to save Zelda from a bad guy by defeating dungeons and collecting things. What's fun about the Legend of Zelda is The Legend of Zelda is – all takes place in a singular world, but with different cultures. And they all include the same hero. So, my – there's a canon that says, "Okay, it takes place at different points in time." And there's like a history timeline you can follow. But my personal favorite headcanon is that the Legend of Zelda is that world's hero’s journey.
JS: I love that. That's so cool. That makes me so happy.
AM: That's awesome.
MS: Every culture has a different Legend of Zelda whereby Link, the hero, has to save Zelda.
AM: Yeah. We recorded an episode the other day about Russian heroes tales and sort of the the specifics of that culture and the various, you know, trials and tribulations that heroes go through. And it was, again, just like so ubiquitous. Like any of the elements could be changed. It's like mad libs almost, where the structure of the thing remains the same. And you can kind of toss in whatever is, you know, most relevant to you.
MS: Yeah. And that's the whole idea behind this. It's that this is the Eyre story, the one that like adheres closest enough to virtually every culture. All human aesthetics ascribe to this kind of thing, because I think it's what we want out of our own lives.
AM: In what way?
MS: I think that, that you want to be told, "Okay. You have the skills." There is a – one goal that you find out about that you have to accomplish. You spend a lot of time and a lot of effort completing that goal, and you will come out of it better.
JS: Yeah. I think – I think in the – it's very specific to the human idea that we want to have a simple concept. We want to just be like this your goal.
AM: You want to know what the price is.
JS: This the challenge.
AM: You want to know what the challenges are. Yeah.
JS: And it's just easy to accomplish. And, once it's done, it's done. You don't have to worry about anything.
AM: That was the one trial. Yeah. It's over.
MS: I think – I think the important part is that – is knowing that it's accomplishable. That whatever you want to achieve, you can do it.
AM: Yeah.
MS: The human spirit of perseverance I think is it's about.
JS: Yes. I agree with that.
AM: Yeah.
MS: I think, if like aliens came down to Earth and were like, "Okay. What are you – what are you about, humans?" I would give them The Hero with a Thousand Faces. I would give them the monomyth, the hero's journey. I'd be like, "This is us. This is what we do, what we want --
JS: This is – this is what we go through.
MS: -- how we do it."
AM: It's sort of like the opposite of a casino.
JS: Like a go ahead with that analogy.
MS: I'm so in.
AM: Trust me here. Trust me here . We're going on a little journey around here. It's like you want the confidence that, instead of walking into the casino where you know that the odds are stacked toward the house – they're stacked against you. And that kind of no matter what you do, if you succeed, it's going to be against incredible odds. And probably whatever bet you play, you know, is going to end up poorly. Maybe you can still find it. Maybe you can't. Whatever. The hero's journey is like predicated on the fact that success is accomplishable. And that – and that journeys are meant to be finished. And that goals are meant to be achieved. And items are meant to be won. And princesses are meant to be saved. And I think having that kind of like base confidence in the order of the universe and the fact that like the universe might bend toward success is something that we need to tell ourselves in order to live.
JS: Yeah. It's more satisfying. As humans, we like satisfying and like complete and closed endings.
AM: Right. And, when it doesn't work, then at least you can say, "Okay. Well, maybe that wasn't it." Like, you know, subconsciously, psychologically, it can be like, "Okay. I mean, well, that wasn't my journey. And this is a step on the way to the journey." And kind of always holding out hope that that, you know, final goal, A, you can identify which probably most of us haven't, and, B, it's – it is within your grasp.
MS: It's a story that gives humanity hope for sure. It's about persevering through the dark times, because, at the end, something is great. And whether that is, you know, working together to achieve things or us --
AM: Vanquishing death.
MS: Yeah. Vanquishing death or even living a pious life of quiet suffering so that you can have solace in the afterlife.
AM: Yeah.
MS: There's a lot of that there. It's just – I don't know. It's the story that humanity tells itself in the dark to let it know it's all going to be okay. And that that – that is every story we've ever told.
AM: And like Hero's Journey can be as small. It’s just an errand, right? Like, I need a bagel. I leave my house. The elevators aren't working. I take the stairs. I talked to the bagel guy. I need to give over hard won money. And like --
JS: So, someone in the bagel place makes a recommendation to you.
AM: Right, exactly.
JS: As a mentor.
AM: Yeah. And, and then I get the bagel. And I return home carrying the bagel of glory and --
JS: Bagel of glory.
AM: -- and enjoy it.
MS: Fantastic. Okay. That's super micro, and I really like it. And I can even have micro hero's journeys in my life where it's like I want to cook dinner. So, I have to gather all of the items and make the thing. And it becomes greater than the sum of its parts. And I meet the goddess and take the boon back, which is a full belly and then I go back to whatever I was doing in my life.
AM: Yeah. I mean I sort of like it too. Like, for people who, you know, struggle with mental illness perhaps or you know, just wanting to have a better – a better kind of – or more conscious relationship to their own success and undermine their own self loathing, "Hey, what's up guys? Tweet me."
JS: Whoa. Okay.
AM: I like this kind of lens on life as a series of little battles and accomplishments. Being able to look at daily moments. Not as like the monotony of another hour of another day of another year of life, but as, you know, a bunch of little challenges that you rise to and accomplish.
MS: I think that's what the Pomodoro Technique is about.
AM: Yes, a bit. Yeah. This time management technique where you sort of break up your day into – I forget the increments. But like 15 minute chunks and then two minute break or something or half hour chunks and two minute break. But like, you know, instead of looking at your calendar, you know, at 7:00 am saying, like, "Oh my god, I have 15 things to accomplish and 12 hours to do it." You say, "Okay, what's the next 20 minutes?" And like that is an accomplishable task.
MS: And you make each one a little hero's journey for yourself.
JS: I like that.
AM: I like that. I like that.
JS: That's really cute. Also --
AM: And then go on a hero's journey.
MS: Also how fun is it to think of yourself as the hero?
AM: I mean we all do.
JS: We all have to be the heroes in our own stories.
MS: Yeah.
JS: Otherwise, it wouldn't be the real human experience. We don't want to be the villager who's like, "See you later, Frodo."
MS: Or like --
AM: Actually, you know what? I think – I think bad things happen when people think of themselves as the, the like victimized party of their own narratives. Like I had a thing at work today where I was emailing with somebody, who was determined to interpret my every, you know, note as like an attack against this person. And, instead of assuming that they were a hero that's going to fix this problem that we are both tackling together, they saw themselves as, you know, someone who is always being inflicted, you know, by terrible things and is always victimized – whatever. And I think there is something very powerful in kind of choosing to be the hero and choosing to say, you know, I can sit here forever and, you know, hang out and just wait or I can go after the thing that I am going after and close the loop on this problem, you know, and, and tie off this narrative.
MS: While we're talking about the micro things, I want to ask you guys. What do you think the macro is? What is the hero's journey of humanity as a whole, as a collective from the first – from prehistory to now to our future?
AM: Vanquishing death, obviously.
JS: Yes.
MS: I mean, vanquishing death, Ray Kurzweil is on it. But like, you know, if, if you think of humanity as a thing with this backstory and, all of a sudden, we gained sentience so we have this special skill that maybe not other species had. We were called to the adventure of knowledge, of learning whatever we can in whatever ways we can gain it, and in such a way that it's sustainable for our lives, our – and our future. That's what writing is about. That's what history is about. That's what science is about. Math and literature, all of those things. I'm just – maybe I'm a little apprehensive about finding out what our critical moment is where we get like thrust across the threshold and have to like --
JS: Make that decision.
MS: Make the life or death decision, where like what if crossing the threshold is global climate change. Like what if we're doing something to the planet that we need to either figure out how to stop fast with perhaps some outside help if we can find it --
AM: Yeah.
MS: -- or perish.
AM: I think that one way to view this is that the hero's journey for humanity is knowing everything, right? Like if we – whether you look at it theologically that like our journey began when we made that, you know, consequential decision to, you know, eat the apple, to take the pill and the matrix. Like, you know, how – whatever lens you want to put on it, you know, we gain sentience you you said and kind of, you know, embarked on this journey of knowing as much as we can about the world. And we started with the environment. We started with food gathering, with getting more control over how we, you know, use nutrients, whatever. And, now, kind of like one of the primary challenges of, of science is understanding the human brain and kind of like the the final frontier of within, as we also expand outward and look out to the universe. So, I think that some of the final – the final kind of challenges for us is like, one, you know, knowing our cells in our brain so completely that we can store and replicate ourselves, you know, onto hard drives and totally like, recreate the environment in the human experience. And I think, at that point, you know, the choice will be, you know, is life worth living when you know everything, do we have to create new virtual environments where we can change variables and, you know, kind of give ourselves endless new levels to play. Or, alternatively, I'm reading the book, Seven Needs, right now, which is about the destruction of Earth and humans who have to kind of propagate the race in space. And, alternatively, you know, is our final challenge surpassing our, our environment, you know, our God given Earth, however, you want to put it that way or the, you know, the globe that we have here to know? Maybe our challenge is ascending it and, and, you know, going beyond it.
JS: Interestingly, I kind of see it in a different way. In that, the hero's journey is a human idea and a human concept. So, I feel like it divides humanity into these different tropes. So, it's kind of understanding like the people – let's say, if climate change is our thing, like you suggested, Mischa, the people who are the scientists who are arguing, "Oh, this is the climate. It's changing. We have to make these changes or else we're all going to die," those are our mentors. Those are the sages. Those are the ones who are telling the stories.
AM: I see. So, were rising to each individual challenge that we identify together that exist.
JS: Yeah, exactly.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That's what I'm thinking.
AM: Interesting.
MS: So, that's interesting because that makes the mentor, the goddess, the temptress, and the hero, all the same person, which is all of us.
AM: Right.
JS: Exactly. That's what I'm thinking.
AM: Yeah. We are – we are the many faces that --
JS: Humanity as a whole.
AM: Yeah.
MS: That's a cool self-reflective way to look at it. That – I really like that.
AM: That is cool.
JS: I like that. Right.
AM: Or, that all of us have the potential to be those characters in everyone else's journey.
JS: Because it's human.
AM: Like that's – we've obviously kind of talked about this from the lens of like me as the hero, because that's what you identify with. So, you know, directly. like it's almost – it's almost hard not to identify as the hero when you read a text or see a movie. But, you know, every single day, like we have the opportunity to go out and be someone else's mentor, be someone else's sage, be someone else's antagonist. Or, maybe their – you know, the the person who helps them get to that final ascend. It's sort of like that as a sort of, you know, radical hospitality or kind of radical empathy technique to disrupt our own.
MS: Wait. Wait. Radical empathy --
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: [Inaudible 33:13].
AM: To displace our own – you know, our own – I don't know – hero centrism of ourselves.
JS: Yeah. I feel like also – so, Jeffrey Gardner of the Our Fair City podcast supposedly wears a shirt that says, "Don't be my obstacle," which I feel like, you know, as human beings, we tend to be each other's obstacles.
AM: We do.
JS: We tend to be each other's antagonists.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And we have to kind of come together if we want to go through that human – that hero's journey in a very human way.
AM: We do. And like, returning to my example of the problem that work I face today, you know, I had a moment where I really wanted to write back a sort of snarky email, you know, refuting this – the thing that the other person said to me and be like, "I didn't cause this problem. I didn't make this thing wrong," and, you know, making it about me --
JS: Right.
AM: -- making it about the hero, making clear, you know what she did and didn't do, and absolving herself of wrongdoing – you know, charges of wrongdoing. But, instead I, I kind of chose to be my interlocutors problem solver. And I chose to write back and say, you know, okay, here's the issue. Like just let the thing pass. And I think that, in my own life, you know, trying to be more empathetic and more helpful and more hospitable to other people that that's a really useful lens for me, personally, to take up going forward. Shit, Mischa, you did well.
JS: We got real when we got real chatty on this one. I like it.
MS: We went from --
AM: Can you tell – can you tell that, Julia and I talk about death a lot when we drink?
JS: But we really do.
MS: That's why your thing is a skull and a martini glass. I love it.
JS: I mean yeah.
AM: Oh, I didn't even put it together. It's true. It's true.
MS: Yeah. I mean I'm sorry I corrupted your spooky mythology, folklore podcast to life’s purpose --
JS: No. No. No.
AM: We need a little checking.
MS: -- talking about psychology and humanity. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. I like it.
MS: You know, it was fun. Thanks. Thanks.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr at @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil